{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.86,"body":"Music. Welcome"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.86,"body":"to the scrum.org community"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.86,"endTime":9.24,"body":"podcast, a podcast from the home"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.86,"endTime":9.24,"body":"of Scrum. In this podcast, we"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":9.24,"endTime":11.64,"body":"feature professional scrum"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":9.24,"endTime":11.64,"body":"trainers and other scrum"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"practitioners sharing their"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"stories and experiences to help"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"learn from the experience of"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"others. We hope you enjoy this"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":18.66,"endTime":19.2,"body":"episode."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.28,"endTime":23.72,"body":"Hello and welcome to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.28,"endTime":23.72,"body":"the scrum.org community podcast."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":23.72,"endTime":28.58,"body":"I'm your host, Dave West, CEO"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":23.72,"endTime":28.58,"body":"here@scrum.org today's podcast"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":28.58,"endTime":33.62,"body":"is part of our agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":28.58,"endTime":33.62,"body":"operating model series. Today,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":33.62,"endTime":37.46,"body":"we're going to discuss the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":33.62,"endTime":37.46,"body":"recently published paper moving"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":37.46,"endTime":41.8,"body":"beyond Agile transformations,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":37.46,"endTime":41.8,"body":"leveraging the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":41.8,"endTime":45.76,"body":"model. And I'm really lucky to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":41.8,"endTime":45.76,"body":"have the author of the paper,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":46.06,"endTime":52.54,"body":"Andy brand, PST and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":46.06,"endTime":52.54,"body":"Organizational Change Guru to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":52.54,"endTime":55.66,"body":"talk about his motivations in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":52.54,"endTime":55.66,"body":"writing the paper, and really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":55.66,"endTime":59.74,"body":"that to really lean into what is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":55.66,"endTime":59.74,"body":"the state of Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":59.74,"endTime":63.54,"body":"transformations. Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":59.74,"endTime":63.54,"body":"podcast, Andy,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":64.2,"endTime":66.96,"body":"hi, hi, thanks for"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":64.2,"endTime":66.96,"body":"having me, Dave. Glad to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":66.99,"endTime":70.56,"body":"talking to you again, talking"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":66.99,"endTime":70.56,"body":"with you again, about this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":70.71,"endTime":74.46,"body":"topic, because we talked a lot"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":70.71,"endTime":74.46,"body":"also when we were working on the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":74.46,"endTime":75.45,"body":"paper. Yes,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":75.84,"endTime":79.08,"body":"we did talk a lot,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":75.84,"endTime":79.08,"body":"and let's hope we don't bore our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":79.14,"endTime":83.78,"body":"listeners, because I'm sure we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":79.14,"endTime":83.78,"body":"did talk for hours and hours"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":83.78,"endTime":87.68,"body":"about this. And you know, your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":83.78,"endTime":87.68,"body":"experiences in the Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":87.74,"endTime":92.54,"body":"transformation world and and how"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":87.74,"endTime":92.54,"body":"you saw those transformations"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":92.54,"endTime":96.44,"body":"really, were really interesting,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":92.54,"endTime":96.44,"body":"because very similar to what I'd"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":96.44,"endTime":101.38,"body":"seen in the US and the world"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":96.44,"endTime":101.38,"body":"with respect to that. So before"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":101.38,"endTime":105.4,"body":"we jump into the white paper,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":101.38,"endTime":105.4,"body":"Andy, you know, let's start with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":105.4,"endTime":110.32,"body":"the landscape or context of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":105.4,"endTime":110.32,"body":"Agile transformations. So what's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":110.32,"endTime":115.48,"body":"your take on the state of play"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":110.32,"endTime":115.48,"body":"on Agile transformations? What's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":115.48,"endTime":116.08,"body":"happening?"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":116.68,"endTime":120.54,"body":"So I think that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":116.68,"endTime":120.54,"body":"they are mostly a thing of the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":120.54,"endTime":125.52,"body":"past. So whoever wanted to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":120.54,"endTime":125.52,"body":"introduce agile into their"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":125.52,"endTime":128.52,"body":"organizations, into their"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":125.52,"endTime":128.52,"body":"company, they have already done"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":128.52,"endTime":136.38,"body":"that. And I would say that this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":128.52,"endTime":136.38,"body":"big wave was around 2017 maybe"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":136.44,"endTime":144.02,"body":"till 2021 maybe 22 for some"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":136.44,"endTime":144.02,"body":"companies. So, but if I, if I"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":144.02,"endTime":146.96,"body":"encountered Agile"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":144.02,"endTime":146.96,"body":"transformations underway in 2022"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":147.92,"endTime":151.76,"body":"it was mostly something like a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":147.92,"endTime":151.76,"body":"second take. So is the second or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":151.76,"endTime":155.0,"body":"third time we tried to do this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":151.76,"endTime":155.0,"body":"because the first time didn't go"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":155.0,"endTime":158.42,"body":"as well. We didn't get the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":155.0,"endTime":158.42,"body":"results we wanted. So we are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":158.42,"endTime":161.8,"body":"trying it again. But I would say"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":158.42,"endTime":161.8,"body":"that the other transformations"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":161.86,"endTime":165.04,"body":"are largely done. And what do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":161.86,"endTime":165.04,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":165.04,"endTime":169.24,"body":"think in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":165.04,"endTime":169.24,"body":"outcomes? You know, I've seen"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":169.24,"endTime":172.66,"body":"lots of these Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":169.24,"endTime":172.66,"body":"transformations happen over the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":172.66,"endTime":176.8,"body":"last 10 years, and I've got,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":172.66,"endTime":176.8,"body":"I've got a feeling what the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":176.8,"endTime":181.5,"body":"outcomes are on in in average,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":176.8,"endTime":181.5,"body":"obviously, there's outliers on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":181.5,"endTime":184.92,"body":"both ends. But what do you see"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":181.5,"endTime":184.92,"body":"in terms of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":184.92,"endTime":188.28,"body":"success, the value that they've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":184.92,"endTime":188.28,"body":"got, that organizations have got"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":188.28,"endTime":189.72,"body":"out of Agile transformations."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":190.44,"endTime":193.32,"body":"So I think that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":190.44,"endTime":193.32,"body":"they got quite a lot of value,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":194.1,"endTime":199.44,"body":"because in many places, these"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":194.1,"endTime":199.44,"body":"efforts succeeded in creating,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":199.44,"endTime":204.32,"body":"for example, cross functional"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":199.44,"endTime":204.32,"body":"teams. And there is just one"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":204.32,"endTime":208.76,"body":"memory just just just plugged"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":204.32,"endTime":208.76,"body":"into my mind about that was,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":208.76,"endTime":214.04,"body":"like, 15 years ago, or maybe,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":208.76,"endTime":214.04,"body":"yeah, that was, I think, 2011 I"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":214.04,"endTime":218.66,"body":"was called to talk about agile."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":214.04,"endTime":218.66,"body":"That was 2011 in a large bank"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":219.32,"endTime":224.08,"body":"and, and I don't remember much"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":219.32,"endTime":224.08,"body":"from that event. It was a very"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":224.08,"endTime":228.46,"body":"large event of large auditorium"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":224.08,"endTime":228.46,"body":"in the HQ with like 200 people"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":228.46,"endTime":234.64,"body":"there. And there were two"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":228.46,"endTime":234.64,"body":"departments present, largely the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":234.64,"endTime":238.24,"body":"Department of software"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":234.64,"endTime":238.24,"body":"engineering and Department of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":238.24,"endTime":242.94,"body":"quality assurance. And as part"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":238.24,"endTime":242.94,"body":"of my talk, I was responding to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":242.94,"endTime":246.06,"body":"questions from the audience,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":242.94,"endTime":246.06,"body":"which were coming on small slips"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":246.06,"endTime":250.02,"body":"of paper. And I remember just"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":246.06,"endTime":250.02,"body":"one of those questions, and it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":250.02,"endTime":255.24,"body":"was like this, I understand that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":250.02,"endTime":255.24,"body":"now, with agile, we'll have to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":255.24,"endTime":260.16,"body":"work more closely with them, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":255.24,"endTime":260.16,"body":"we'll have to also sit together"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":260.16,"endTime":265.82,"body":"with them, okay, so, and this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":260.16,"endTime":265.82,"body":"showed the depth of cultural"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":265.82,"endTime":270.44,"body":"divide between those two groups."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":265.82,"endTime":270.44,"body":"Now it's unthinkable that divide"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":270.44,"endTime":276.56,"body":"is largely gone. We don't have"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":270.44,"endTime":276.56,"body":"totally separate departments of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":276.56,"endTime":279.56,"body":"quality assurance and software"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":276.56,"endTime":279.56,"body":"development. That's one example"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":279.56,"endTime":284.2,"body":"of the change that happened so"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":279.56,"endTime":284.2,"body":"we have more cohesive teams. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":284.2,"endTime":288.1,"body":"also I feel that we we"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":284.2,"endTime":288.1,"body":"concentrate so much on"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":288.1,"endTime":291.28,"body":"processes, on Scrum, etc, but I"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":288.1,"endTime":291.28,"body":"think there is also lots of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":291.28,"endTime":294.1,"body":"improvement when it comes to the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":291.28,"endTime":294.1,"body":"craftsmanship of building"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":294.1,"endTime":299.32,"body":"software. A lot of that has"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":294.1,"endTime":299.32,"body":"improved over the past 15 years"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":299.32,"endTime":303.0,"body":"or so. But part of that is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":299.32,"endTime":303.0,"body":"thanks to tooling, but much of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":303.0,"endTime":305.58,"body":"that is again, thanks to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":303.0,"endTime":305.58,"body":"efforts, and also thanks to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":305.58,"endTime":309.24,"body":"agile. The sole thing that you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":305.58,"endTime":309.24,"body":"have to have something done"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":309.48,"endTime":314.64,"body":"fairly often. And again, it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":309.48,"endTime":314.64,"body":"not so that all teams that say"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":314.64,"endTime":317.28,"body":"they do Scrum, they actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":314.64,"endTime":317.28,"body":"have something done every two"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":317.28,"endTime":321.92,"body":"weeks, which is the predominant"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":317.28,"endTime":321.92,"body":"splint length, by the way, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":321.92,"endTime":325.58,"body":"still, they have something done"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":321.92,"endTime":325.58,"body":"more often that they had in the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":325.58,"endTime":329.42,"body":"past, and that kind of forced"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":325.58,"endTime":329.42,"body":"improvements in craftsmanship."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":329.42,"endTime":333.14,"body":"So I think there's lots of lots"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":329.42,"endTime":333.14,"body":"of doubt. And also we have"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":333.14,"endTime":337.58,"body":"created quite a lot of Scrum"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":333.14,"endTime":337.58,"body":"Masters, adjunct coaches, whole"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":337.58,"endTime":344.98,"body":"departments of way of working"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":337.58,"endTime":344.98,"body":"and and, I mean, again, some,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":344.98,"endTime":348.34,"body":"some are saying that they are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":344.98,"endTime":348.34,"body":"not as valuable, or maybe they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":348.34,"endTime":352.42,"body":"shouldn't be there as"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":348.34,"endTime":352.42,"body":"departments or whatever. But"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":352.48,"endTime":357.04,"body":"basically, what we created"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":352.48,"endTime":357.04,"body":"create a whole body of people"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":357.04,"endTime":360.24,"body":"who care about the process and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":357.04,"endTime":360.24,"body":"about improvement and about"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":360.24,"endTime":362.7,"body":"getting better in the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":360.24,"endTime":362.7,"body":"organizations, and they are,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":362.7,"endTime":366.36,"body":"they are still there, in a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":362.7,"endTime":366.36,"body":"sense, right? So those are those"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":366.84,"endTime":371.88,"body":"things that, on average, worked,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":366.84,"endTime":371.88,"body":"yeah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":371.88,"endTime":376.08,"body":"I would completely"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":371.88,"endTime":376.08,"body":"agree. I think the, you know, 20"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":376.08,"endTime":381.92,"body":"years ago, 15 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":376.08,"endTime":381.92,"body":"delivering product and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":381.92,"endTime":384.8,"body":"predominantly software. But"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":381.92,"endTime":384.8,"body":"delivering software product was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":384.8,"endTime":389.3,"body":"incredibly hard. Delivering the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":384.8,"endTime":389.3,"body":"process was incredibly"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":389.3,"endTime":393.26,"body":"complicated. We were talking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":389.3,"endTime":393.26,"body":"about things like CMMI. We were"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":393.26,"endTime":397.52,"body":"talking about, you know, Kokomo"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":393.26,"endTime":397.52,"body":"and things like that. And I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":397.52,"endTime":402.82,"body":"think over this last 15 years,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":397.52,"endTime":402.82,"body":"what I've seen is that delivery"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":402.82,"endTime":405.76,"body":"has definitely improved, cross"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":402.82,"endTime":405.76,"body":"functional teams, particularly"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":405.76,"endTime":412.3,"body":"with business analysis, testing,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":405.76,"endTime":412.3,"body":"development, maybe UX have kind"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":412.3,"endTime":416.38,"body":"of come together. Maybe UX,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":412.3,"endTime":416.38,"body":"that's a whole nother debate and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":416.38,"endTime":421.56,"body":"a start, and are effectively"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":416.38,"endTime":421.56,"body":"doing, doing work together,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":421.56,"endTime":424.74,"body":"which, which would have been,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":421.56,"endTime":424.74,"body":"you know, I remember my first"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":424.74,"endTime":427.92,"body":"job, and you're a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":424.74,"endTime":427.92,"body":"younger than me, but you can"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":427.92,"endTime":431.16,"body":"probably attest to this, I built"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":427.92,"endTime":431.16,"body":"code. There was a whole"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":431.16,"endTime":434.64,"body":"different room where people"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":431.16,"endTime":434.64,"body":"tested it, and they weren't very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":434.64,"endTime":437.34,"body":"nice people. Actually. They just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":434.64,"endTime":437.34,"body":"kept finding problems with my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":437.34,"endTime":440.72,"body":"code, which I didn't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":437.34,"endTime":440.72,"body":"particularly like, at least now"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":440.72,"endTime":445.16,"body":"they're focused working"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":440.72,"endTime":445.16,"body":"together, which is a, which is a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":445.16,"endTime":450.14,"body":"huge thing, but, but I still"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":445.16,"endTime":450.14,"body":"see, and maybe, maybe you don't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":450.14,"endTime":454.64,"body":"see this, but, or maybe you do."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":450.14,"endTime":454.64,"body":"In fact, I think this was the,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":454.94,"endTime":459.92,"body":"the sort of premise of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":454.94,"endTime":459.92,"body":"paper, the that there's still a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":459.92,"endTime":464.14,"body":"lot of these teams are still"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":459.92,"endTime":464.14,"body":"working on work. They're not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":464.2,"endTime":469.12,"body":"working on value. They're not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":464.2,"endTime":469.12,"body":"aligned to innovation. There's a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":469.12,"endTime":474.7,"body":"massive gulf between business"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":469.12,"endTime":474.7,"body":"strategy and technical delivery."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":475.54,"endTime":479.08,"body":"They they're sort of going in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":475.54,"endTime":479.08,"body":"the they're going really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":479.08,"endTime":483.0,"body":"effectively, but not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":479.08,"endTime":483.0,"body":"in the right direction. They're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":483.0,"endTime":485.76,"body":"building things that people"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":483.0,"endTime":485.76,"body":"don't want. They're taking an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":485.76,"endTime":490.5,"body":"alternate amount of time to do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":485.76,"endTime":490.5,"body":"that. That's that is has not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":490.5,"endTime":493.68,"body":"changed because of Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":490.5,"endTime":493.68,"body":"transformations. Do you agree?"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":494.52,"endTime":498.24,"body":"Yeah, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":494.52,"endTime":498.24,"body":"slightly changed. It's slightly"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":498.24,"endTime":503.78,"body":"changed, but it changed. I"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":498.24,"endTime":503.78,"body":"wouldn't say it's not enough"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":504.14,"endTime":507.68,"body":"what has changed, because what"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":504.14,"endTime":507.68,"body":"I'm saying slightly changed. I"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":507.68,"endTime":510.8,"body":"have two things in mind. One is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":507.68,"endTime":510.8,"body":"the companies, the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":510.98,"endTime":514.1,"body":"organizations, or maybe parts of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":510.98,"endTime":514.1,"body":"the larger organizations, that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":514.1,"endTime":518.66,"body":"you call the outliers, where"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":514.1,"endTime":518.66,"body":"they change really deep around"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":518.66,"endTime":526.12,"body":"deep and was profound, but they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":518.66,"endTime":526.12,"body":"are a minority. And I would like"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":526.12,"endTime":530.38,"body":"to make this I would digress a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":526.12,"endTime":530.38,"body":"bit, but I think it's it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":530.38,"endTime":535.48,"body":"normal. It's something to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":530.38,"endTime":535.48,"body":"expected when we change and when"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":535.48,"endTime":540.1,"body":"we introduce change, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":535.48,"endTime":540.1,"body":"that, that's another article"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":540.1,"endTime":543.06,"body":"that I have in on my mind. But"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":540.1,"endTime":543.06,"body":"when you change, when you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":543.06,"endTime":547.14,"body":"introduce change in the way we"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":543.06,"endTime":547.14,"body":"were doing with Scrum and Agile,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":547.2,"endTime":551.46,"body":"we were trying and we were"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":547.2,"endTime":551.46,"body":"looking at the best companies"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":551.46,"endTime":554.64,"body":"and best teams and most"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":551.46,"endTime":554.64,"body":"productive teams and hyper"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":554.64,"endTime":558.6,"body":"productive teams, etc. Well,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":554.64,"endTime":558.6,"body":"average teams are average. They"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":558.6,"endTime":563.3,"body":"cannot ever be hyper, hyper. It"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":558.6,"endTime":563.3,"body":"was always a minority, so it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":563.3,"endTime":569.36,"body":"couldn't hope. And no, no one"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":563.3,"endTime":569.36,"body":"can hope really, unless they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":569.6,"endTime":575.66,"body":"take really drastic measures to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":569.6,"endTime":575.66,"body":"really become from from becoming"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":576.08,"endTime":580.42,"body":"low average, they to jump"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":576.08,"endTime":580.42,"body":"suddenly to being one of the top"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":580.42,"endTime":583.12,"body":"performing outliers. I'm not"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":580.42,"endTime":583.12,"body":"sure that. I don't think it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":583.12,"endTime":589.18,"body":"even possible, but what is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":583.12,"endTime":589.18,"body":"possible is moving from being a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":589.18,"endTime":594.4,"body":"low performing average to higher"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":589.18,"endTime":594.4,"body":"performing average, what I call"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":594.4,"endTime":598.6,"body":"the 5% difference. But that 5%"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":594.4,"endTime":598.6,"body":"difference might be difference"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":598.6,"endTime":601.92,"body":"between going down and going."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":598.6,"endTime":601.92,"body":"Slightly up, and that's a whole"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":601.92,"endTime":607.14,"body":"lot of difference. So that was"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":601.92,"endTime":607.14,"body":"to be to a certain degree to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":607.14,"endTime":610.62,"body":"expected, but the organizations"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":607.14,"endTime":610.62,"body":"did not get out, and I'm getting"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":610.62,"endTime":613.5,"body":"back to the main topic, they did"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":610.62,"endTime":613.5,"body":"not get out from the core"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":613.5,"endTime":617.34,"body":"problem that we all have, which"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":613.5,"endTime":617.34,"body":"is we are trying to do too much,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":617.88,"endTime":621.02,"body":"much more than we are capable"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":617.88,"endTime":621.02,"body":"of. And I'm saying we all have"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":621.02,"endTime":624.74,"body":"it because it's a human problem."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":621.02,"endTime":624.74,"body":"We have the same problem in our"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":624.74,"endTime":628.88,"body":"lives that we're trying to grasp"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":624.74,"endTime":628.88,"body":"too much, but in our lives,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":628.88,"endTime":634.04,"body":"there are kind of hard limits"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":628.88,"endTime":634.04,"body":"that we can see or even feel."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":634.52,"endTime":638.12,"body":"And in a large organization, if"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":634.52,"endTime":638.12,"body":"you are an executive, a CEO or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":638.12,"endTime":641.98,"body":"someone of this kind, it's much"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":638.12,"endTime":641.98,"body":"easier to fall into that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":641.98,"endTime":644.92,"body":"illusion that we can do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":641.98,"endTime":644.92,"body":"everything, because almost no"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":644.92,"endTime":648.46,"body":"one will say no to you. And the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":644.92,"endTime":648.46,"body":"end result of that is that you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":648.46,"endTime":654.1,"body":"have an anti pattern that I see"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":648.46,"endTime":654.1,"body":"repeatedly in organization, is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":654.1,"endTime":659.32,"body":"that they have like 100"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":654.1,"endTime":659.32,"body":"initiatives open, and how many"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":659.32,"endTime":663.72,"body":"people are working on on those"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":659.32,"endTime":663.72,"body":"project well, 25 right? I'm"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":663.72,"endTime":666.42,"body":"exaggerating slightly, but, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":663.72,"endTime":666.42,"body":"this is this kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":666.42,"endTime":671.7,"body":"relationship. We have many"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":666.42,"endTime":671.7,"body":"projects, initiatives, all kinds"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":671.7,"endTime":676.26,"body":"of names for different types of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":671.7,"endTime":676.26,"body":"work, and that work usually cuts"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":676.32,"endTime":681.32,"body":"across different technologies,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":676.32,"endTime":681.32,"body":"different systems and different"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":681.32,"endTime":685.88,"body":"teams. And one, one person that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":681.32,"endTime":685.88,"body":"I talked to, one one manager and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":685.88,"endTime":690.86,"body":"at the bank, he used this jar"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":685.88,"endTime":690.86,"body":"analogy. He said that our teams"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":690.86,"endTime":694.46,"body":"are like this jar that is full"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":690.86,"endTime":694.46,"body":"of sand, and there is no place"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":694.46,"endTime":698.42,"body":"to stick big stones, where in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":694.46,"endTime":698.42,"body":"big stones, he meant products."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":699.08,"endTime":703.06,"body":"And this leads to this, to this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":699.08,"endTime":703.06,"body":"problem that so we have agile"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":703.06,"endTime":707.14,"body":"teams. We have we are delivering"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":703.06,"endTime":707.14,"body":"more often. We are better"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":707.14,"endTime":710.56,"body":"technically. We are better"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":707.14,"endTime":710.56,"body":"craftsmen. However, we don't"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":710.56,"endTime":716.2,"body":"have spectacular results. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":710.56,"endTime":716.2,"body":"how do you achieve spectacular"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":716.2,"endTime":720.28,"body":"results? Well, but by focusing,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":716.2,"endTime":720.28,"body":"you cannot be spectacular in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":720.28,"endTime":723.9,"body":"everything. You have to focus on"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":720.28,"endTime":723.9,"body":"something. So if you bowl that,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":723.9,"endTime":727.62,"body":"if you kind of transfer that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":723.9,"endTime":727.62,"body":"into an organization, I would"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":727.62,"endTime":730.38,"body":"say that teams have to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":727.62,"endTime":730.38,"body":"focused on products. And that's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":730.38,"endTime":735.0,"body":"the biggest problem right now"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":730.38,"endTime":735.0,"body":"that we don't have. I mean that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":735.0,"endTime":739.5,"body":"the whole work is not cut into"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":735.0,"endTime":739.5,"body":"products properly. And secondly,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":739.5,"endTime":742.88,"body":"that those teams are not really"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":739.5,"endTime":742.88,"body":"focused on those products, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":742.88,"endTime":746.0,"body":"this is what we are trying to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":742.88,"endTime":746.0,"body":"address with apon, I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":747.74,"endTime":750.8,"body":"it's interesting. You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":747.74,"endTime":750.8,"body":"sort of highlighted something"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":750.8,"endTime":757.1,"body":"that I don't think is obvious"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":750.8,"endTime":757.1,"body":"when you think about moving to a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":757.1,"endTime":761.56,"body":"product model, but it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":757.1,"endTime":761.56,"body":"something that Dow Fernandez, ex"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":761.56,"endTime":766.36,"body":"CIO delivery lead of some large"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":761.56,"endTime":766.36,"body":"financial institutions, when he"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":766.36,"endTime":769.66,"body":"was introducing product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":766.36,"endTime":769.66,"body":"operating model or a product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":769.66,"endTime":773.08,"body":"model to those organizations, he"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":769.66,"endTime":773.08,"body":"said the most important and most"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":773.08,"endTime":777.76,"body":"powerful thing that it gave him"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":773.08,"endTime":777.76,"body":"and his organization, his"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":777.76,"endTime":782.28,"body":"delivery organization, was the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":777.76,"endTime":782.28,"body":"ability to say no, and which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":782.28,"endTime":784.8,"body":"sounds incredibly negative, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":782.28,"endTime":784.8,"body":"you're like, my god, the last"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":784.8,"endTime":788.22,"body":"thing you want is something that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":784.8,"endTime":788.22,"body":"can say no. But he said because"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":788.22,"endTime":794.46,"body":"we said no, we said yes, so much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":788.22,"endTime":794.46,"body":"more. I was like, Okay, now, now"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":794.46,"endTime":798.18,"body":"hang on. I'm now going around in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":794.46,"endTime":798.18,"body":"circles. He goes because we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":798.18,"endTime":802.94,"body":"actually had a road map for our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":798.18,"endTime":802.94,"body":"for our products, and the teams"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":802.94,"endTime":806.12,"body":"were aligned to those products,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":802.94,"endTime":806.12,"body":"and they weren't continuously"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":806.12,"endTime":811.64,"body":"changing focus, and they weren't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":806.12,"endTime":811.64,"body":"continuously, you know, context"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":811.64,"endTime":814.22,"body":"switching and connecting and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":811.64,"endTime":814.22,"body":"dealing with dependencies. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":814.22,"endTime":819.5,"body":"everybody knew it gave us the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":814.22,"endTime":819.5,"body":"ability to do a lot more, but it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":819.5,"endTime":824.62,"body":"gave us also the ability to not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":819.5,"endTime":824.62,"body":"start a lot more at the time,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":824.62,"endTime":827.2,"body":"you know. And I thought that was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":824.62,"endTime":827.2,"body":"a really interesting"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":827.2,"endTime":831.76,"body":"perspective, that that that is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":827.2,"endTime":831.76,"body":"something that his agile teams,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":831.76,"endTime":834.4,"body":"and obviously he was at"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":831.76,"endTime":834.4,"body":"Fidelity, who were the what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":834.4,"endTime":839.62,"body":"second or third company ever in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":834.4,"endTime":839.62,"body":"the world to do, Scrum and, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":839.62,"endTime":842.4,"body":"I thought, you know, I thought"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":839.62,"endTime":842.4,"body":"that was a really, really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":842.4,"endTime":849.72,"body":"interesting, interesting point"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":842.4,"endTime":849.72,"body":"of view. No, so, alright. So the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":850.32,"endTime":853.2,"body":"alright. So we've got this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":850.32,"endTime":853.2,"body":"challenge. You've got agile."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":853.2,"endTime":856.38,"body":"Transformations have happened or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":853.2,"endTime":856.38,"body":"been happening, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":856.38,"endTime":859.02,"body":"they're still happening in your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":856.38,"endTime":859.02,"body":"organizations. And sometimes"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":859.02,"endTime":862.28,"body":"these things are big and long,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":859.02,"endTime":862.28,"body":"so we're not judging here. We"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":862.4,"endTime":867.44,"body":"don't do any of that, but the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":862.4,"endTime":867.44,"body":"value that you're getting, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":867.5,"endTime":873.8,"body":"is significant, could be so much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":867.5,"endTime":873.8,"body":"more with this idea of a palm."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":874.16,"endTime":878.06,"body":"So talk a little bit about the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":874.16,"endTime":878.06,"body":"Agile product operating model"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":878.06,"endTime":880.48,"body":"from your perspective, that's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":880.48,"endTime":883.48,"body":"also well, so from"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":880.48,"endTime":883.48,"body":"my perspective, is mostly, maybe"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":883.9,"endTime":887.68,"body":"I wouldn't say mostly, because"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":883.9,"endTime":887.68,"body":"as we, as we worked on this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":887.68,"endTime":891.1,"body":"model, and we are working on it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":887.68,"endTime":891.1,"body":"right now, I see that there are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":891.1,"endTime":893.98,"body":"different perspectives on that,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":891.1,"endTime":893.98,"body":"but, but from my perspective,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":893.98,"endTime":898.72,"body":"from where I see it, so to say,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":893.98,"endTime":898.72,"body":"I would say that how to manage a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":898.72,"endTime":902.4,"body":"product is an. Already solved"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":898.72,"endTime":902.4,"body":"problem. We already know how to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":902.4,"endTime":906.12,"body":"do that by saying we I'm saying"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":902.4,"endTime":906.12,"body":"the community at large. There"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":906.18,"endTime":908.7,"body":"are books about it, there are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":906.18,"endTime":908.7,"body":"people who have experience in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":908.7,"endTime":912.0,"body":"it. There are training courses"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":908.7,"endTime":912.0,"body":"on how to be a product owner,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":912.0,"endTime":916.56,"body":"product manager, or however you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":912.0,"endTime":916.56,"body":"call it, on different levels of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":916.56,"endTime":922.28,"body":"competence. So we know that. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":916.56,"endTime":922.28,"body":"I'm not saying that it's easy,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":922.28,"endTime":925.34,"body":"but there is this body of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":922.28,"endTime":925.34,"body":"knowledge. However, the key"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":925.34,"endTime":929.24,"body":"problem seems to be that there"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":925.34,"endTime":929.24,"body":"are no real product owners"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":929.24,"endTime":933.38,"body":"really managing the products."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":929.24,"endTime":933.38,"body":"And you said about context"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":933.38,"endTime":936.98,"body":"switching, we are kind of forced"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":933.38,"endTime":936.98,"body":"to context switch, in a sense"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":937.28,"endTime":940.16,"body":"that we have to adjust our"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":937.28,"endTime":940.16,"body":"products to the changing market"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":940.16,"endTime":943.9,"body":"faster and faster and faster. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":940.16,"endTime":943.9,"body":"for example, strategy now is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":943.9,"endTime":949.84,"body":"something two years off and not"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":943.9,"endTime":949.84,"body":"10 years off, but still, it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":949.84,"endTime":952.12,"body":"done better when there is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":949.84,"endTime":952.12,"body":"someone who makes decisions"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":952.12,"endTime":955.36,"body":"quickly, but they are within the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":952.12,"endTime":955.36,"body":"context of the product that they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":955.36,"endTime":959.26,"body":"actually really own and don't do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":955.36,"endTime":959.26,"body":"that alone, then they own it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":959.38,"endTime":963.3,"body":"with their team. And from time"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":959.38,"endTime":963.3,"body":"to time, that can change, in a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":963.3,"endTime":966.96,"body":"sense that this whole team, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":963.3,"endTime":966.96,"body":"this whole team with the product"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":966.96,"endTime":969.42,"body":"owner, maybe gets another"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":966.96,"endTime":969.42,"body":"product or starts towards"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":969.42,"endTime":973.5,"body":"something else, if that product"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":969.42,"endTime":973.5,"body":"is not being developed anymore,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":973.5,"endTime":976.08,"body":"or maybe it's not needed"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":973.5,"endTime":976.08,"body":"anymore, but, but still, it's a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":976.08,"endTime":980.66,"body":"longer stretch, right? So we"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":976.08,"endTime":980.66,"body":"deal with instability, but being"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":980.66,"endTime":985.34,"body":"more stable, it's something like"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":980.66,"endTime":985.34,"body":"this, no, yes, problem that you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":985.64,"endTime":992.72,"body":"you mentioned, or I will say"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":985.64,"endTime":992.72,"body":"that again. So yeah, we get"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":993.14,"endTime":997.88,"body":"stability, but we also deal with"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":993.14,"endTime":997.88,"body":"change better. And it's like"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":998.12,"endTime":1005.1,"body":"this, yes, no, paradox that you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":998.12,"endTime":1005.1,"body":"mentioned, right? So, so I see"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1005.1,"endTime":1009.24,"body":"it as a problem of how together,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1005.1,"endTime":1009.24,"body":"and how together is mostly how"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1009.24,"endTime":1012.12,"body":"we convince people who are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1009.24,"endTime":1012.12,"body":"running those businesses, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1012.12,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"they are running those"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1012.12,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"businesses in the context of our"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1015.9,"endTime":1019.68,"body":"socio economic system where they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1015.9,"endTime":1019.68,"body":"have to deliver profits and they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1019.68,"endTime":1024.44,"body":"have to be rising every year."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1019.68,"endTime":1024.44,"body":"How we convince them that the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1024.44,"endTime":1027.86,"body":"way to get there and to get"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1024.44,"endTime":1027.86,"body":"those spectacular results they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1027.86,"endTime":1034.28,"body":"crave is to give more of the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1027.86,"endTime":1034.28,"body":"organizational power that they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1034.28,"endTime":1038.24,"body":"have in those teams to actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1034.28,"endTime":1038.24,"body":"developing products, how to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1038.24,"endTime":1041.86,"body":"convince them that it's better"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1038.24,"endTime":1041.86,"body":"to say no to many initiatives"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1042.22,"endTime":1048.76,"body":"and say yes to some well"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1042.22,"endTime":1048.76,"body":"strategically chosen product."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1048.76,"endTime":1052.42,"body":"And again, because we had those"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1048.76,"endTime":1052.42,"body":"Agile transformations, because"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1052.42,"endTime":1055.6,"body":"we have agile teams, this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1052.42,"endTime":1055.6,"body":"strategic commitment doesn't"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1055.6,"endTime":1060.42,"body":"have to be long term. It can be,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1055.6,"endTime":1060.42,"body":"I don't know, for a quarter, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1060.42,"endTime":1064.26,"body":"if, after a quarter they feel a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1060.42,"endTime":1064.26,"body":"product makes no sense, or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1064.98,"endTime":1068.22,"body":"investment in continuing"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1064.98,"endTime":1068.22,"body":"investment makes no sense, it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1068.22,"endTime":1072.42,"body":"easy to switch to something"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1068.22,"endTime":1072.42,"body":"else. So how to get them to view"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1072.42,"endTime":1076.74,"body":"the organization, not to the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1072.42,"endTime":1076.74,"body":"lens of ongoing work, projects"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1076.74,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"initiatives, but through the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1076.74,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"lens of, okay, we have products,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1083.36,"body":"and we develop products. And of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1083.36,"body":"course, we have ongoing work as"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1083.36,"endTime":1090.5,"body":"well, but at least some part of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1083.36,"endTime":1090.5,"body":"our power, which is manpower,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1090.74,"endTime":1097.46,"body":"which is capital, is devoted to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1090.74,"endTime":1097.46,"body":"developing products. And that's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1097.52,"endTime":1103.48,"body":"an organization, organizational"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1097.52,"endTime":1103.48,"body":"change problem. And again, as we"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1103.48,"endTime":1107.44,"body":"are talking right now, it just"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1103.48,"endTime":1107.44,"body":"occurred to me that this all"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1107.44,"endTime":1111.46,"body":"happens at a crucial moment,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1107.44,"endTime":1111.46,"body":"because right now we are in the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1111.46,"endTime":1116.2,"body":"midst of artificial intelligence"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1111.46,"endTime":1116.2,"body":"revolution, and I'm also very"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1116.2,"endTime":1120.66,"body":"deep into that. And when it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1116.2,"endTime":1120.66,"body":"comes to software development,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1120.66,"endTime":1125.16,"body":"it's a revolutionary technology."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1120.66,"endTime":1125.16,"body":"It increases the effectiveness"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1125.22,"endTime":1132.18,"body":"of teams well from 30 to 70%"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1125.22,"endTime":1132.18,"body":"depending on whom you ask. But"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1132.54,"endTime":1136.74,"body":"having used those tools and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1132.54,"endTime":1136.74,"body":"using those tools myself, I see"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1136.74,"endTime":1140.96,"body":"huge change over the last year,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1136.74,"endTime":1140.96,"body":"and it will just increase now."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1140.96,"endTime":1145.34,"body":"Why I'm mentioning that? Because"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1140.96,"endTime":1145.34,"body":"this is another kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1145.46,"endTime":1149.36,"body":"temptation for the managers."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1145.46,"endTime":1149.36,"body":"Okay, why bother with that? AI"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1149.36,"endTime":1155.24,"body":"will do everything that I want,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1149.36,"endTime":1155.24,"body":"and no, even AI won't do all the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1155.24,"endTime":1158.12,"body":"initiatives and all the work"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1155.24,"endTime":1158.12,"body":"that you do that it is this,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1158.12,"endTime":1162.1,"body":"this, this problem of having the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1158.12,"endTime":1162.1,"body":"jar with stones and sand, it"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1162.1,"endTime":1166.48,"body":"won't go away. Yes, the job will"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1162.1,"endTime":1166.48,"body":"be bigger, but the problem"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1166.48,"endTime":1171.4,"body":"itself won't go away. So while"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1166.48,"endTime":1171.4,"body":"organizations will surely invest"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1171.4,"endTime":1176.92,"body":"in this, in that technology, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1171.4,"endTime":1176.92,"body":"then I'm very much for that, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1176.92,"endTime":1180.42,"body":"I support that, and I will even"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1176.92,"endTime":1180.42,"body":"be helping organizations do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1180.42,"endTime":1185.16,"body":"that, I still believe that they"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1180.42,"endTime":1185.16,"body":"have to focus on well selected"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1185.16,"endTime":1188.88,"body":"product portfolio, and that's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1185.16,"endTime":1188.88,"body":"the main challenge. I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1188.88,"endTime":1193.62,"body":"main challenge actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1188.88,"endTime":1193.62,"body":"convincing the CEOs, CEOs and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1193.62,"endTime":1196.62,"body":"other executives, that this is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1193.62,"endTime":1196.62,"body":"the right way to go."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1198.48,"endTime":1200.9,"body":"I think AI, it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1198.48,"endTime":1200.9,"body":"really. Interesting. You brought"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1200.9,"endTime":1208.58,"body":"up AI. I agree that AI and this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1200.9,"endTime":1208.58,"body":"technology is, I mean, it's,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1209.0,"endTime":1212.18,"body":"it's at the level of a print the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1209.0,"endTime":1212.18,"body":"printing press, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1212.18,"endTime":1218.42,"body":"terms of its potential impact in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1212.18,"endTime":1218.42,"body":"society. I actually was using it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1218.66,"endTime":1221.74,"body":"yesterday. I'm not very good at,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1218.66,"endTime":1221.74,"body":"you know, accountancy and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1221.98,"endTime":1225.34,"body":"planning and forecasting and all"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1221.98,"endTime":1225.34,"body":"that stuff. And so I took it, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1225.34,"endTime":1230.26,"body":"took my data, and I threw it in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1225.34,"endTime":1230.26,"body":"and asked it some questions. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1230.56,"endTime":1233.26,"body":"I wouldn't say it was perfect,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1230.56,"endTime":1233.26,"body":"but it helped me make some"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1233.26,"endTime":1238.36,"body":"decisions about, you know, where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1233.26,"endTime":1238.36,"body":"certain products are going, etc."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1238.36,"endTime":1244.92,"body":"But the key to it is that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1238.36,"endTime":1244.92,"body":"context and the problem that AI"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1244.92,"endTime":1248.1,"body":"suffers from, and we've done a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1244.92,"endTime":1248.1,"body":"lot of experiments like you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1248.1,"endTime":1252.6,"body":"have, is, if you give it a much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1248.1,"endTime":1252.6,"body":"broader context, then the value"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1252.6,"endTime":1255.48,"body":"of the answers that it gives you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1252.6,"endTime":1255.48,"body":"and the solutions that it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1255.48,"endTime":1260.1,"body":"provides are less valuable. The"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1255.48,"endTime":1260.1,"body":"great thing about this boundary"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1260.1,"endTime":1264.14,"body":"that we're calling product is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1260.1,"endTime":1264.14,"body":"it's customers, stakeholders,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1264.26,"endTime":1270.38,"body":"value. You know, it's a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1264.26,"endTime":1270.38,"body":"classical model right of a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1270.38,"endTime":1275.6,"body":"context that makes sense, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1270.38,"endTime":1275.6,"body":"then providing that context and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1275.6,"endTime":1280.9,"body":"those boundaries allows AI to do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1275.6,"endTime":1280.9,"body":"some amazing things, to increase"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1280.9,"endTime":1285.76,"body":"the power of the solutions it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1280.9,"endTime":1285.76,"body":"it's creating. You know, I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1285.88,"endTime":1291.22,"body":"that the the the alignment to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1285.88,"endTime":1291.22,"body":"product in an organization,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1291.58,"endTime":1296.32,"body":"coupled with the use of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1291.58,"endTime":1296.32,"body":"disruptive technology like AI"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1296.62,"endTime":1300.72,"body":"will, I mean, potentially could"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1296.62,"endTime":1300.72,"body":"do amazing things. Obviously,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1300.72,"endTime":1303.78,"body":"you have to pick the right"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1300.72,"endTime":1303.78,"body":"products. That's a choice thing,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1303.96,"endTime":1306.84,"body":"and you've got to make some"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1303.96,"endTime":1306.84,"body":"decisions about where value"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1306.84,"endTime":1311.16,"body":"lies. But if you, if you do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1306.84,"endTime":1311.16,"body":"those two things, I think the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1311.16,"endTime":1315.06,"body":"sky's the the limit really. So I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1311.16,"endTime":1315.06,"body":"completely agree,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1315.78,"endTime":1320.54,"body":"okay, to you to use"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1315.78,"endTime":1320.54,"body":"your printing press analogy. It"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1326.84,"body":"is as hard now as it was then,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1326.84,"body":"to write a valuable, Wise Book,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1328.04,"endTime":1331.22,"body":"because it starts with with"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1328.04,"endTime":1331.22,"body":"having something to share. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1331.46,"endTime":1335.66,"body":"you can you back then you use,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1331.46,"endTime":1335.66,"body":"probably quail pen and stuff"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1335.66,"endTime":1339.92,"body":"like that. And right now you can"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1335.66,"endTime":1339.92,"body":"use open AI to draft it with you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1339.92,"endTime":1345.22,"body":"and polish your language, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1339.92,"endTime":1345.22,"body":"still, you have to have some"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1345.22,"endTime":1347.38,"body":"idea what you want to have to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1345.22,"endTime":1347.38,"body":"have something to say,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1347.38,"endTime":1349.66,"body":"basically, right? Because"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1347.38,"endTime":1349.66,"body":"otherwise it will be low"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1349.66,"endTime":1352.84,"body":"quality. So what the printing"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1349.66,"endTime":1352.84,"body":"press changed is that it's much"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1352.84,"endTime":1357.82,"body":"easier to then bring it to to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1352.84,"endTime":1357.82,"body":"the users of books or to the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1357.82,"endTime":1363.06,"body":"readers. And ebooks make that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1357.82,"endTime":1363.06,"body":"even easier right now. So going"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1363.06,"endTime":1366.72,"body":"back to the core problem, the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1363.06,"endTime":1366.72,"body":"core problem will always remain,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1366.96,"endTime":1370.62,"body":"as long as we are in a limited"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1366.96,"endTime":1370.62,"body":"reality is that you cannot do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1370.62,"endTime":1373.38,"body":"everything, and you have to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1370.62,"endTime":1373.38,"body":"concentrate your efforts in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1373.38,"endTime":1376.74,"body":"order. I mean, the question is,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1373.38,"endTime":1376.74,"body":"what do you want? Do you want to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1376.8,"endTime":1381.98,"body":"prolong the existence of your"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1376.8,"endTime":1381.98,"body":"organization as it is now, or do"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1381.98,"endTime":1384.92,"body":"you want spectacular results?"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1381.98,"endTime":1384.92,"body":"And I'm kind of quoting this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1384.92,"endTime":1388.58,"body":"spectacular results is, is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1384.92,"endTime":1388.58,"body":"something that one board member"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1389.36,"endTime":1393.2,"body":"demanded from his people and,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1389.36,"endTime":1393.2,"body":"and I think it's a fair demand."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1393.2,"endTime":1396.5,"body":"I mean, you are doing this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1393.2,"endTime":1396.5,"body":"extraordinary change, you have"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1396.5,"endTime":1399.14,"body":"those motivated teams. Where are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1396.5,"endTime":1399.14,"body":"the results? It's a fair"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1399.14,"endTime":1405.1,"body":"question. However spectacular"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1399.14,"endTime":1405.1,"body":"results come from concentration"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1405.1,"endTime":1409.06,"body":"and focus, and it has been so"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1405.1,"endTime":1409.06,"body":"always, and I don't think any"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1409.06,"endTime":1413.68,"body":"kind of technology can ever"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1409.06,"endTime":1413.68,"body":"change that. Yeah, so, so this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1413.68,"endTime":1417.76,"body":"is the I mean, and I want to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1413.68,"endTime":1417.76,"body":"underline that the apom is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1417.76,"endTime":1421.68,"body":"something more than that,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1417.76,"endTime":1421.68,"body":"because we have been working on"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1421.68,"endTime":1425.94,"body":"that and discussing amongst the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1421.68,"endTime":1425.94,"body":"PSDs that are working on this"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1426.18,"endTime":1430.98,"body":"model. So there is, there are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1426.18,"endTime":1430.98,"body":"still those problems, how to"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1430.98,"endTime":1435.66,"body":"manage products, how to organize"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1430.98,"endTime":1435.66,"body":"cross product work, etc. But"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1435.66,"endTime":1439.26,"body":"from maybe that's my main"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1435.66,"endTime":1439.26,"body":"interest. That's why I'm so"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1439.26,"endTime":1443.78,"body":"focused on this. It's okay, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1439.26,"endTime":1443.78,"body":"how do you first get the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1443.78,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"company's management to actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1443.78,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"realign much of their resources"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1450.08,"endTime":1455.9,"body":"around certain specific products"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1450.08,"endTime":1455.9,"body":"in a product portfolio that it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1455.9,"endTime":1460.72,"body":"not too large for the resources"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1455.9,"endTime":1460.72,"body":"to be spread to think to make"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1460.72,"endTime":1461.5,"body":"any difference"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1462.16,"endTime":1467.5,"body":"and and that is the I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1462.16,"endTime":1467.5,"body":"want to say, $64,000 question. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1467.5,"endTime":1472.3,"body":"guess when that saying came out,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1467.5,"endTime":1472.3,"body":"$64,000 was a lot of money. Now"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1472.3,"endTime":1476.08,"body":"it's not, maybe as much. But"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1472.3,"endTime":1476.08,"body":"that is the fundamental"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1476.08,"endTime":1480.1,"body":"question. And from what I've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1476.08,"endTime":1480.1,"body":"observed, the best way of doing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1480.1,"endTime":1485.04,"body":"that is to start doing it and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1480.1,"endTime":1485.04,"body":"and start with one product, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1485.04,"endTime":1490.38,"body":"then incrementally add another"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1485.04,"endTime":1490.38,"body":"and then another and start doing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1490.38,"endTime":1494.28,"body":"that. The the message of this is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1490.38,"endTime":1494.28,"body":"the other thing that Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1494.28,"endTime":1498.3,"body":"transformations, I think, got"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1494.28,"endTime":1498.3,"body":"wrong. And I you know this is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1498.3,"endTime":1501.68,"body":"going to sound very grandiose."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1498.3,"endTime":1501.68,"body":"And and please shoot me down."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1501.68,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"Andy, if I'm if I'm sounding"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1501.68,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"like I'm preaching here is that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1509.06,"body":"they assumed, one that the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1509.06,"body":"implementation of agility would"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1509.06,"endTime":1512.48,"body":"be done in a very sequential"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1509.06,"endTime":1512.48,"body":"waterfall way. The other thing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1512.48,"endTime":1516.74,"body":"is they assumed that all teams"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1512.48,"endTime":1516.74,"body":"would be agile, but they would"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1516.74,"endTime":1519.74,"body":"all kind of do it the same way."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1516.74,"endTime":1519.74,"body":"They would have the same"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1520.22,"endTime":1526.06,"body":"underlying agile operating"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1520.22,"endTime":1526.06,"body":"model, and I don't believe that."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1526.12,"endTime":1530.26,"body":"And what I've observed is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1526.12,"endTime":1530.26,"body":"different products require"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1530.56,"endTime":1534.1,"body":"different cultures, they require"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1530.56,"endTime":1534.1,"body":"different organizational models,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1534.1,"endTime":1536.56,"body":"they require different"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1534.1,"endTime":1536.56,"body":"incentives. They require now,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1536.56,"endTime":1540.18,"body":"they might not be grass"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1536.56,"endTime":1540.18,"body":"drastically different from the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1540.18,"endTime":1545.22,"body":"other products, but, but the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1540.18,"endTime":1545.22,"body":"ability to own, I always thought"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1545.22,"endTime":1548.16,"body":"there was an irony when we said"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1545.22,"endTime":1548.16,"body":"that the people that own the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1548.16,"endTime":1552.0,"body":"scrum process that you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1548.16,"endTime":1552.0,"body":"implement, because it's a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1552.0,"endTime":1555.18,"body":"framework, are the teams, but"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1552.0,"endTime":1555.18,"body":"we're going to tell you how to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1555.18,"endTime":1559.08,"body":"do it. And I thought there was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1555.18,"endTime":1559.08,"body":"some irony in these Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1559.08,"endTime":1562.82,"body":"transformations, telling people"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1559.08,"endTime":1562.82,"body":"to become agile, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1562.82,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"because of the you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1562.82,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"ownership, whereas I do believe,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1565.88,"endTime":1571.28,"body":"if you can empower the product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1565.88,"endTime":1571.28,"body":"teams and the leadership around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1571.28,"endTime":1574.58,"body":"the product to take ownership of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1571.28,"endTime":1574.58,"body":"how they work, how they're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1574.58,"endTime":1577.28,"body":"incentivized, how they're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1574.58,"endTime":1577.28,"body":"aligned, what, what the you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1577.28,"endTime":1580.9,"body":"know, the roadmap, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1577.28,"endTime":1580.9,"body":"technology roadmap, the business"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1580.9,"endTime":1584.68,"body":"roadmap, the operational"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1580.9,"endTime":1584.68,"body":"roadmap, the value model, they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1584.68,"endTime":1589.96,"body":"take ownership of those things."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1584.68,"endTime":1589.96,"body":"I think I honestly you talk"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1589.96,"endTime":1594.88,"body":"about spectacular results from"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1589.96,"endTime":1594.88,"body":"my experience, having done a few"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1594.88,"endTime":1599.26,"body":"startups, the most spectacular"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1594.88,"endTime":1599.26,"body":"results we ever achieve is when"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1599.26,"endTime":1602.88,"body":"everybody's aligned and owns the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1599.26,"endTime":1602.88,"body":"things that they're working on."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1603.24,"endTime":1606.84,"body":"And, you know, and obviously, AI"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1603.24,"endTime":1606.84,"body":"and other technology can,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1606.84,"endTime":1610.62,"body":"really, can really, can really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1606.84,"endTime":1610.62,"body":"drive that. So I guess to answer"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1610.62,"endTime":1612.66,"body":"your question, even though I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1610.62,"endTime":1612.66,"body":"meant to be asking the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1612.66,"endTime":1617.7,"body":"questions, I guess start one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1612.66,"endTime":1617.7,"body":"product at a time. So what? What"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1617.76,"endTime":1619.62,"body":"you know, listeners, you know"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1620.4,"endTime":1622.4,"body":"this is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1620.4,"endTime":1622.4,"body":"interesting, because when you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1622.4,"endTime":1626.24,"body":"talk to companies, when you"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1622.4,"endTime":1626.24,"body":"talked about what were their"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1626.24,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"experiences, quite a few"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1626.24,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"companies have an experience of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1631.22,"endTime":1636.2,"body":"this kind that for some reason,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1631.22,"endTime":1636.2,"body":"usually that was CEOs pet"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1636.2,"endTime":1640.48,"body":"project or something like that."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1636.2,"endTime":1640.48,"body":"They did really set these things"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1640.48,"endTime":1644.92,"body":"upright. So they set aside a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1640.48,"endTime":1644.92,"body":"team and gave that team a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1644.92,"endTime":1650.26,"body":"product and let that team run"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1644.92,"endTime":1650.26,"body":"with it. And quite often, that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1650.26,"endTime":1653.98,"body":"ended in a success, larger or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1650.26,"endTime":1653.98,"body":"smaller, depending on how big"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1653.98,"endTime":1657.76,"body":"the market opportunity were and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1653.98,"endTime":1657.76,"body":"other factors. However, it kind"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1657.76,"endTime":1663.0,"body":"of worked. What is interesting"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1657.76,"endTime":1663.0,"body":"is that most often no one had"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1663.0,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"the idea, okay, let's repeat"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1663.0,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"that with three products, or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1671.94,"body":"maybe with five product next"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1671.94,"body":"time, right? So I know at least"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1671.94,"endTime":1675.72,"body":"one such project that ended and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1671.94,"endTime":1675.72,"body":"this team being spun off as a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1675.72,"endTime":1679.5,"body":"separate company, which is an"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1675.72,"endTime":1679.5,"body":"okay business decision, but why"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1679.5,"endTime":1683.78,"body":"not to try and repeat that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1679.5,"endTime":1683.78,"body":"again, right? So,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1685.46,"endTime":1688.88,"body":"yeah, I've seen that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1685.46,"endTime":1688.88,"body":"so many times. It's like when I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1688.88,"endTime":1692.78,"body":"used to go into organizations"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1688.88,"endTime":1692.78,"body":"and and I said, How long does it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1696.26,"body":"take you to deliver software?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1696.26,"body":"And they said, Oh, 12 weeks. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1696.26,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"said, so when you have a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1696.26,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"production failure, it your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1699.32,"endTime":1702.88,"body":"products are out for 12 weeks."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1699.32,"endTime":1702.88,"body":"Oh no, no, we can deliver in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1702.88,"endTime":1706.66,"body":"minutes if there's a production"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1702.88,"endTime":1706.66,"body":"problem. So you can deliver"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1706.66,"endTime":1711.58,"body":"software in 12 minutes, or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1706.66,"endTime":1711.58,"body":"whatever they say. Oh yes, but"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1711.64,"endTime":1715.36,"body":"normally we don't. I was like,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1711.64,"endTime":1715.36,"body":"Well, how do we make the norm"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1715.36,"endTime":1721.32,"body":"not how do we make the norm the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1715.36,"endTime":1721.32,"body":"opposite. And there was, like,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1721.32,"endTime":1723.96,"body":"what, we can't do that. Why?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1721.32,"endTime":1723.96,"body":"Well, because, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1723.96,"endTime":1726.36,"body":"obviously using the best people."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1723.96,"endTime":1726.36,"body":"So you're saying the other"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1726.36,"endTime":1728.76,"body":"people aren't the best. How do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1726.36,"endTime":1728.76,"body":"we make them the best? Well, no,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1728.76,"endTime":1731.82,"body":"no. Well, we create an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1728.76,"endTime":1731.82,"body":"environment around them where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1731.88,"endTime":1734.94,"body":"they can make choices and make"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1731.88,"endTime":1734.94,"body":"decisions. You're telling me you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1734.94,"endTime":1737.82,"body":"don't do that for your normal"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1734.94,"endTime":1737.82,"body":"Well, we could do that. And it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1737.82,"endTime":1741.56,"body":"was, it's just always"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1737.82,"endTime":1741.56,"body":"interesting as you unpack, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1741.56,"endTime":1746.72,"body":"know, the the organizational"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1741.56,"endTime":1746.72,"body":"bureaucracy that has there's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1746.72,"endTime":1751.04,"body":"evolved for good reason to make,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1746.72,"endTime":1751.04,"body":"you know, but at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1751.04,"endTime":1755.6,"body":"day, it's, it's about choices,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1751.04,"endTime":1755.6,"body":"and it's about trust, and it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1755.6,"endTime":1760.7,"body":"about support, you know, and you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1755.6,"endTime":1760.7,"body":"get those three things in place,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1760.82,"endTime":1764.86,"body":"which I think are fundamentals"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1760.82,"endTime":1764.86,"body":"to the to a POM to the Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1764.86,"endTime":1768.76,"body":"product operating model, using"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1764.86,"endTime":1768.76,"body":"evidence to make those choices,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1768.76,"endTime":1772.12,"body":"using evidence to provide the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1768.76,"endTime":1772.12,"body":"support you know and and fix the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1772.12,"endTime":1776.74,"body":"problems and make those you know"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1772.12,"endTime":1776.74,"body":"right choices. I think that at"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1776.74,"endTime":1782.46,"body":"the end of the day, you can, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1776.74,"endTime":1782.46,"body":"can do amazing things. So our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1782.46,"endTime":1784.62,"body":"listeners, you know, we have to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1782.46,"endTime":1784.62,"body":"keep this short, and I could"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1784.62,"endTime":1789.78,"body":"talk to you Andy, as we've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1784.62,"endTime":1789.78,"body":"proven many very late nights for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1789.78,"endTime":1793.92,"body":"you, we have, we have burned the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1789.78,"endTime":1793.92,"body":"oil talking about this stuff."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1795.54,"endTime":1798.84,"body":"Our listeners, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1795.54,"endTime":1798.84,"body":"at many different levels in an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1798.84,"endTime":1802.4,"body":"organization, maybe. Some of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1798.84,"endTime":1802.4,"body":"them are practitioners working"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1802.4,"endTime":1806.66,"body":"in Agile teams that have been"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1802.4,"endTime":1806.66,"body":"through an Agile transformation."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.32,"body":"Maybe we've got some leaders"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.32,"body":"listening. What would be the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1810.32,"endTime":1815.78,"body":"advice for them about a palm and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1810.32,"endTime":1815.78,"body":"the to leverage this Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1815.78,"endTime":1819.08,"body":"transformation and and to really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1815.78,"endTime":1819.08,"body":"take it to the next level? What?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1819.08,"endTime":1820.4,"body":"What can they do next?"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1821.6,"endTime":1823.66,"body":"I would say, start"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1821.6,"endTime":1823.66,"body":"with the first product. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1823.66,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"define, well define a product."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1823.66,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"And this is, this can be hard in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1828.16,"endTime":1832.54,"body":"its own right, because by a well"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1828.16,"endTime":1832.54,"body":"defined product is also has"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1832.54,"endTime":1836.44,"body":"technological implications,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1832.54,"endTime":1836.44,"body":"which means creating a product"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1836.44,"endTime":1841.56,"body":"that has as few hard"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1836.44,"endTime":1841.56,"body":"dependencies as possible, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1841.56,"endTime":1844.8,"body":"give that product to a team, or"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1841.56,"endTime":1844.8,"body":"a group of teams, a formation,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1844.8,"endTime":1849.72,"body":"as we call it, with a product"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1844.8,"endTime":1849.72,"body":"owner, and let them run with"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1850.62,"endTime":1855.12,"body":"generic or general business"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1850.62,"endTime":1855.12,"body":"goals, like a certain number of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1855.12,"endTime":1859.26,"body":"users, conversions, revenue,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1855.12,"endTime":1859.26,"body":"whatever, and see how that plays"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1859.26,"endTime":1863.12,"body":"out. And obviously choose a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1859.26,"endTime":1863.12,"body":"product that that makes sense,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1863.12,"endTime":1868.16,"body":"right? So a product that really"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1863.12,"endTime":1868.16,"body":"would appeal to your customer"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1868.16,"endTime":1873.86,"body":"base, etc, and see how that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1868.16,"endTime":1873.86,"body":"plays out if you can get because"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1873.98,"endTime":1881.44,"body":"it's much easier to get your"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1873.98,"endTime":1881.44,"body":"executives, whoever, has the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1881.44,"endTime":1885.46,"body":"power to give green light to an"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1881.44,"endTime":1885.46,"body":"experiment like that and keep"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1885.46,"endTime":1889.36,"body":"that light, that green light on"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1885.46,"endTime":1889.36,"body":"for long enough period for that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1889.36,"endTime":1893.8,"body":"to have any to bear any fruit."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1889.36,"endTime":1893.8,"body":"It's much easier to get such a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1893.8,"endTime":1898.42,"body":"commitment for one product than"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1893.8,"endTime":1898.42,"body":"for creating a product portfolio"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1899.2,"endTime":1903.72,"body":"of 40 products are 40, it's way"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1899.2,"endTime":1903.72,"body":"too many. But like 20 products,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1903.72,"endTime":1908.22,"body":"and having quarterly reviews of"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1903.72,"endTime":1908.22,"body":"those product portfolios, etc,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1908.22,"endTime":1910.8,"body":"it's much easier to get a"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1908.22,"endTime":1910.8,"body":"commitment for one product, for,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1910.8,"endTime":1915.9,"body":"I don't know, a year and and,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1910.8,"endTime":1915.9,"body":"and then proving that this can"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1915.9,"endTime":1920.58,"body":"work. And what is important that"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1915.9,"endTime":1920.58,"body":"it can work here, not somewhere,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1920.7,"endTime":1923.42,"body":"somewhere else in another"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1920.7,"endTime":1923.42,"body":"company, somewhere else in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1923.42,"endTime":1927.2,"body":"another country, not here."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1923.42,"endTime":1927.2,"body":"That's an important proof. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1927.2,"endTime":1931.22,"body":"by the way, this is how Agile"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1927.2,"endTime":1931.22,"body":"transformations got started. Is"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1931.22,"endTime":1935.66,"body":"that somewhere some people"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1931.22,"endTime":1935.66,"body":"established a few Scrum or agile"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1935.66,"endTime":1940.72,"body":"teams, and they started to be in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1935.66,"endTime":1940.72,"body":"some aspects, better than the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1940.72,"endTime":1944.5,"body":"rest, and it got someone's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1940.72,"endTime":1944.5,"body":"attention. That's how it got"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1944.5,"endTime":1950.26,"body":"started, before we had all the"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1944.5,"endTime":1950.26,"body":"marketing going, before we"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1950.32,"endTime":1953.74,"body":"before the large consulting"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1950.32,"endTime":1953.74,"body":"company started talking about"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1953.74,"endTime":1958.0,"body":"that to clients, etc. Before"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1953.74,"endTime":1958.0,"body":"that, it started like this. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1958.0,"endTime":1962.1,"body":"yeah, that's what I would"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":1958.0,"endTime":1962.1,"body":"recommend. Start"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1962.4,"endTime":1966.24,"body":"with a product, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1962.4,"endTime":1966.24,"body":"it's a natural, you know, just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1966.24,"endTime":1971.64,"body":"to re echo the white paper, it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1966.24,"endTime":1971.64,"body":"a natural evolution of your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1971.7,"endTime":1976.2,"body":"agile approach. It really is."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1971.7,"endTime":1976.2,"body":"What you're doing is you're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1976.2,"endTime":1982.88,"body":"basically changing the focus of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1976.2,"endTime":1982.88,"body":"the team from a work backlog"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1983.48,"endTime":1989.12,"body":"into a product backlog, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1983.48,"endTime":1989.12,"body":"really bring in the business,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1989.12,"endTime":1992.6,"body":"the people that are ultimately"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1989.12,"endTime":1992.6,"body":"stakeholders of this, this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1992.6,"endTime":1997.64,"body":"product closer to that, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1992.6,"endTime":1997.64,"body":"empowering some sort of product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1997.7,"endTime":2003.0,"body":"owner, Product Manager, to drive"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1997.7,"endTime":2003.0,"body":"this product into the market and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2003.0,"endTime":2006.84,"body":"to deliver the results. Might be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2003.0,"endTime":2006.84,"body":"an internal product, might be an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2006.84,"endTime":2012.66,"body":"external product, but deliver"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2006.84,"endTime":2012.66,"body":"the results that the vision and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2012.66,"endTime":2018.78,"body":"the dream and the plan are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2012.66,"endTime":2018.78,"body":"aspiring to. But I think it's a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2018.84,"endTime":2022.82,"body":"I think everybody has that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2018.84,"endTime":2022.82,"body":"ability to make this change. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2022.82,"endTime":2026.42,"body":"that's the other great thing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2022.82,"endTime":2026.42,"body":"about a palm right, is that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2026.42,"endTime":2029.72,"body":"Agile transformations,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2026.42,"endTime":2029.72,"body":"particularly at scale, were like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2029.72,"endTime":2033.8,"body":"these huge things. What we're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2029.72,"endTime":2033.8,"body":"actually saying is get a team,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2034.58,"endTime":2037.46,"body":"or maybe a couple of teams, if"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2034.58,"endTime":2037.46,"body":"it's a slightly bigger product,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2037.7,"endTime":2041.68,"body":"focus them on it. Get a road"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2037.7,"endTime":2041.68,"body":"map, get a business map, get a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2041.86,"endTime":2047.02,"body":"ROI, build those, build those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2041.86,"endTime":2047.02,"body":"OKRs, or those goals, and then"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2047.08,"endTime":2051.4,"body":"form that and then focus it on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2047.08,"endTime":2051.4,"body":"the problem at hand and let them"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2051.4,"endTime":2055.06,"body":"go. And then review it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2051.4,"endTime":2055.06,"body":"continuously and see how it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2055.06,"endTime":2055.54,"body":"goes."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2058.3,"endTime":2061.8,"body":"Right. And if it's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2058.3,"endTime":2061.8,"body":"a new product I would highly"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2061.8,"endTime":2064.26,"body":"recommend to start with one team"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2061.8,"endTime":2064.26,"body":"and many."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2064.92,"endTime":2071.4,"body":"Oh, yes, so would I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2064.92,"endTime":2071.4,"body":"there is a fallacy or a sort of,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2071.7,"endTime":2076.44,"body":"you know, if you the idea that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2071.7,"endTime":2076.44,"body":"if you throw 100 people at a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2076.44,"endTime":2081.14,"body":"problem, you get it, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2076.44,"endTime":2081.14,"body":"10 times faster than 10 people?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2081.5,"endTime":2082.28,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2082.88,"endTime":2084.86,"body":"it's worse. It's"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2082.88,"endTime":2084.86,"body":"worse than that, because those"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2084.86,"endTime":2091.04,"body":"people have to do something. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2084.86,"endTime":2091.04,"body":"if there is not enough work"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2091.04,"endTime":2094.22,"body":"coming from the product owner,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2091.04,"endTime":2094.22,"body":"they will invent their own work,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2094.22,"endTime":2099.02,"body":"which will basically mean"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2094.22,"endTime":2099.02,"body":"developing something according"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2099.02,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"to their vision. How the product"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2099.02,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"will evolve in the future, which"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2107.38,"body":"usually ends up, in all that,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2107.38,"body":"having to be reward or holding"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2107.38,"endTime":2112.3,"body":"the teams back in the future. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2107.38,"endTime":2112.3,"body":"it's so much better to start"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2112.3,"endTime":2115.3,"body":"with one team if you are"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2112.3,"endTime":2115.3,"body":"starting with a new product,"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2115.84,"endTime":2116.56,"body":"small"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2116.62,"endTime":2122.22,"body":"is definitely the way"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2116.62,"endTime":2122.22,"body":"to go. It is true that having"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2122.22,"endTime":2125.46,"body":"lots of teams from day one,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2122.22,"endTime":2125.46,"body":"particularly on a new product,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2125.46,"endTime":2129.6,"body":"is a as a recipe for disaster,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2125.46,"endTime":2129.6,"body":"usually, unless there are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2129.6,"endTime":2132.78,"body":"actually multiple products and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2129.6,"endTime":2132.78,"body":"there's a clearly understood"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2132.78,"endTime":2135.96,"body":"this, you know, separation"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2132.78,"endTime":2135.96,"body":"between them, which is, which is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2135.96,"endTime":2139.68,"body":"really, really good. Andy, thank"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2135.96,"endTime":2139.68,"body":"you for spending the time today."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2139.74,"endTime":2145.88,"body":"I've really enjoyed listening to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2139.74,"endTime":2145.88,"body":"your experiences around the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2145.88,"endTime":2149.18,"body":"Agile product operating model"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2145.88,"endTime":2149.18,"body":"and talking about your white"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2149.18,"endTime":2153.2,"body":"paper, moving beyond Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2149.18,"endTime":2153.2,"body":"transformations, leveraging the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2153.2,"endTime":2155.54,"body":"Agile product operating model."},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2157.64,"endTime":2163.0,"body":"Thanks. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2157.64,"endTime":2163.0,"body":"having me for this discussion in"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2163.0,"endTime":2167.62,"body":"the scrum.org podcast. So first"},{"speaker":"Andy Brandt","startTime":2163.0,"endTime":2167.62,"body":"for me, so you know, oh, well,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2167.62,"endTime":2170.02,"body":"that's always that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2167.62,"endTime":2170.02,"body":"always good, that's always good."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2170.02,"endTime":2172.54,"body":"I'm glad. Finally we got,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2170.02,"endTime":2172.54,"body":"managed to get you on and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2172.54,"endTime":2175.12,"body":"listeners, thank you for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2172.54,"endTime":2175.12,"body":"listening today to the scrum.org"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2175.48,"endTime":2179.98,"body":"community Podcast. Today, we're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2175.48,"endTime":2179.98,"body":"listening to Andy Brandt PST and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2183.84,"body":"organizational change expert"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2183.84,"body":"talk about his motivations in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2183.84,"endTime":2187.86,"body":"writing the paper, moving beyond"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2183.84,"endTime":2187.86,"body":"the Agile transformations,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2187.86,"endTime":2191.28,"body":"leveraging the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2187.86,"endTime":2191.28,"body":"operating model. Hopefully it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2191.28,"endTime":2194.94,"body":"been as enjoyable for you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2191.28,"endTime":2194.94,"body":"listening as it has been for me,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2194.94,"endTime":2201.8,"body":"participating. I think the one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2194.94,"endTime":2201.8,"body":"message that came out was this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2201.8,"endTime":2206.06,"body":"is a great way of really taking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2201.8,"endTime":2206.06,"body":"those Agile transformations and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2206.06,"endTime":2210.38,"body":"the benefits you've got and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2206.06,"endTime":2210.38,"body":"aligning it to the problems of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2210.38,"endTime":2213.26,"body":"the future and to the outcomes"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2210.38,"endTime":2213.26,"body":"that the company seeks the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2213.26,"endTime":2218.06,"body":"strategy is driving to, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2213.26,"endTime":2218.06,"body":"really letting it go and and AI"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2218.06,"endTime":2221.62,"body":"is just going to increase that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2218.06,"endTime":2221.62,"body":"leverage that you can that you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2221.62,"endTime":2224.8,"body":"can deliver the value from so I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2221.62,"endTime":2224.8,"body":"think that was a great message"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2224.8,"endTime":2228.28,"body":"from today's podcast. And if you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2224.8,"endTime":2228.28,"body":"liked what you heard, please"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2228.28,"endTime":2231.82,"body":"subscribe, share with friends,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2228.28,"endTime":2231.82,"body":"and of course, come back and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2231.82,"endTime":2235.78,"body":"listen to some more. I'm very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2231.82,"endTime":2235.78,"body":"lucky to have a variety of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2235.78,"endTime":2238.06,"body":"guests that talk about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2235.78,"endTime":2238.06,"body":"everything in the areas of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2238.06,"endTime":2241.68,"body":"professional, Scrum, product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2238.06,"endTime":2241.68,"body":"thinking, and, of course, agile,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2241.86,"endTime":2243.78,"body":"thanks everybody and Scrum on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2241.86,"endTime":2243.78,"body":"you."}]}