{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":13.5,"endTime":16.38,"body":"Dave, Hello, welcome"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":13.5,"endTime":16.38,"body":"to the scrum.org community"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":16.38,"endTime":20.54,"body":"podcast. I'm your host. Dave"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":16.38,"endTime":20.54,"body":"West, CEO, here@scrum.org and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.54,"endTime":26.6,"body":"today's podcast will focus on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.54,"endTime":26.6,"body":"safe and a palm or their long"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":26.6,"endTime":31.28,"body":"titles, the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":26.6,"endTime":31.28,"body":"operating model and the Scaled"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":31.28,"endTime":36.26,"body":"Agile Framework. Wow. Anyway, so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":31.28,"endTime":36.26,"body":"today I'm joined by Yuval,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.26,"endTime":40.78,"body":"Yvette PST and safe fellow."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.26,"endTime":40.78,"body":"Welcome to the podcast, your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":40.78,"endTime":41.2,"body":"Val,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":41.44,"endTime":43.78,"body":"great to be back"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":41.44,"endTime":43.78,"body":"again. Dave, it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":43.96,"endTime":47.26,"body":"it's great to have a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":43.96,"endTime":47.26,"body":"safe fellow and somebody that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":47.44,"endTime":51.4,"body":"heavily involved in the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":47.44,"endTime":51.4,"body":"evolution of the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":51.4,"endTime":55.72,"body":"operating model on this podcast,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":51.4,"endTime":55.72,"body":"because I got lots of questions."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":55.78,"endTime":59.26,"body":"And before we get to that,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":55.78,"endTime":59.26,"body":"though, I want to tell our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":59.26,"endTime":63.3,"body":"listeners the genesis of this."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":59.26,"endTime":63.3,"body":"So this podcast actually came"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":63.3,"endTime":66.54,"body":"out of a recent webinar,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":63.3,"endTime":66.54,"body":"navigate, navigating,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":66.54,"endTime":72.96,"body":"navigating, navigating safe with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":66.54,"endTime":72.96,"body":"professional Scrum. Those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":72.96,"endTime":76.86,"body":"discussions and questions got me"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":72.96,"endTime":76.86,"body":"thinking about the relationship"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":76.86,"endTime":80.78,"body":"between a palm and safe, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":76.86,"endTime":80.78,"body":"that's the reason why I asked"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.78,"endTime":84.08,"body":"you, Val to spend some time with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.78,"endTime":84.08,"body":"me today so I can pick his brain"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":84.56,"endTime":90.44,"body":"about that. So hope you've, hope"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":84.56,"endTime":90.44,"body":"you've got your thinking cap on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":90.44,"endTime":94.52,"body":"your Val. What is the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":90.44,"endTime":94.52,"body":"relationship? This was the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":94.52,"endTime":96.38,"body":"question actually from the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":94.52,"endTime":96.38,"body":"webinar. What is the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":96.38,"endTime":100.16,"body":"relationship between the Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":96.38,"endTime":100.16,"body":"product, operating model and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":100.16,"endTime":104.62,"body":"Scaled Agile Framework. Are they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":100.16,"endTime":104.62,"body":"friends? Are they rivals? Are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":104.62,"endTime":108.16,"body":"they best buddies? What is the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":104.62,"endTime":108.16,"body":"relationship? Can Can you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":108.16,"endTime":110.14,"body":"describe it for our listeners?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":108.16,"endTime":110.14,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":110.86,"endTime":116.08,"body":"the way I like to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":110.86,"endTime":116.08,"body":"look at it, and it's inspired"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":116.08,"endTime":120.4,"body":"what I'm trying to do in the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":116.08,"endTime":120.4,"body":"trenches these days is that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":122.5,"endTime":129.24,"body":"safe? 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And moving from"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":143.0,"endTime":146.72,"body":"projects to products, you need"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":143.0,"endTime":146.72,"body":"to do something in the trenches."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":146.72,"endTime":151.1,"body":"You need to organize into those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":146.72,"endTime":151.1,"body":"empowered product teams, and"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":151.1,"endTime":154.52,"body":"sometimes teams of teams that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":151.1,"endTime":154.52,"body":"need to work together, if your"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":154.94,"endTime":160.36,"body":"architecture, you know, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":154.94,"endTime":160.36,"body":"really allow you to fully"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":160.36,"endTime":164.74,"body":"decouple the organization. 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Leo management teams"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":299.38,"endTime":304.98,"body":"ultimately are optimized around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":304.98,"endTime":310.14,"body":"the work, not around the value."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":304.98,"endTime":310.14,"body":"You know, you you see that they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":310.14,"endTime":315.78,"body":"want an efficient factory, but,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":310.14,"endTime":315.78,"body":"but, but unlike a factory, a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":315.78,"endTime":318.36,"body":"factory works on a product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":315.78,"endTime":318.36,"body":"that's well defined with very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":318.36,"endTime":321.32,"body":"little variability. That's what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":318.36,"endTime":321.32,"body":"Lean taught us right Six Sigma,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":321.32,"endTime":324.62,"body":"those things, what we're talking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":321.32,"endTime":324.62,"body":"about, the product that we're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":324.62,"endTime":329.3,"body":"working on isn't one of those."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":324.62,"endTime":329.3,"body":"Usually, it's more like what you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":329.3,"endTime":332.84,"body":"would be doing in a lab. You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":329.3,"endTime":332.84,"body":"have a hypothesis, you define"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":332.84,"endTime":336.92,"body":"experiments. You deliver them,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":332.84,"endTime":336.92,"body":"you try. You know, you and yes,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":336.92,"endTime":340.36,"body":"they provide value. 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Do you do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":368.28,"endTime":371.7,"body":"when you, when you say that you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":368.28,"endTime":371.7,"body":"know and and you know you're not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":371.7,"endTime":373.98,"body":"printing your T shirts, though"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":371.7,"endTime":373.98,"body":"you really should, and that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":373.98,"endTime":377.22,"body":"really cool. That's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":373.98,"endTime":377.22,"body":"should definitely trademark it,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":377.52,"endTime":381.02,"body":"but the or copyright it, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":377.52,"endTime":381.02,"body":"because you can't trademark a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":381.02,"endTime":383.84,"body":"phrase. 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I'm"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":399.08,"endTime":404.92,"body":"working on using it more but,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":399.08,"endTime":404.92,"body":"but they're getting it in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":404.92,"endTime":409.18,"body":"classic product development"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":404.92,"endTime":409.18,"body":"worlds. 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And sort of my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":535.48,"endTime":541.44,"body":"experience of labs is the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":541.44,"endTime":545.76,"body":"variability and the ability to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":541.44,"endTime":545.76,"body":"change. You know that there is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":545.76,"endTime":548.7,"body":"some level of efficiency in it,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":545.76,"endTime":548.7,"body":"like they have set number of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":548.7,"endTime":552.78,"body":"processes. However, they are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":548.7,"endTime":552.78,"body":"continuously monitoring those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":552.78,"endTime":556.68,"body":"processes to improve them."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":552.78,"endTime":556.68,"body":"Because ultimately, the the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":556.68,"endTime":559.26,"body":"processes affect the outcomes,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":556.68,"endTime":559.26,"body":"and the outcomes affect the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":559.26,"endTime":562.34,"body":"processes and blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":559.26,"endTime":562.34,"body":"So I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":562.34,"endTime":567.14,"body":"interesting, because one of my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":562.34,"endTime":567.14,"body":"challenges to say, for my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":567.2,"endTime":572.18,"body":"observation of how it's been"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":567.2,"endTime":572.18,"body":"implemented, is they take it as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":572.18,"endTime":575.3,"body":"though they're not building a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":572.18,"endTime":575.3,"body":"lab, they're building a factory."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":575.3,"endTime":579.32,"body":"They take all the practices,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":575.3,"endTime":579.32,"body":"they take every and they apply"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":579.32,"endTime":585.22,"body":"it. I don't want to say Route,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":579.32,"endTime":585.22,"body":"Route, Lee, you know, as per, as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":585.22,"endTime":589.24,"body":"per, the training classes, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":585.22,"endTime":589.24,"body":"materials for, you know. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":589.24,"endTime":594.16,"body":"there we go. And this is it. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":589.24,"endTime":594.16,"body":"that, I think, is a criticism"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":594.16,"endTime":597.46,"body":"that I think is fair when it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":594.16,"endTime":597.46,"body":"leveled against safe. By the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":597.46,"endTime":601.14,"body":"way, I know that safe itself"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":597.46,"endTime":601.14,"body":"says no. You shouldn't do that,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":601.38,"endTime":604.02,"body":"but, you know, it's hard."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":604.5,"endTime":608.94,"body":"Yeah, I think we"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":604.5,"endTime":608.94,"body":"have, I think there are three"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":609.24,"endTime":612.36,"body":"loops of learning, of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":609.24,"endTime":612.36,"body":"improvement that we need to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":612.36,"endTime":617.94,"body":"think about. Yeah, there's the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":612.36,"endTime":617.94,"body":"actual manufacturing floor, the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":617.94,"endTime":621.62,"body":"actual product. And when we're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":617.94,"endTime":621.62,"body":"in the digital world. We don't"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":621.62,"endTime":625.16,"body":"really need to manufacture that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":621.62,"endTime":625.16,"body":"product. It's there, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":625.16,"endTime":628.1,"body":"that's where a lot of you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":625.16,"endTime":628.1,"body":"this metaphor breaks down. But"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":628.1,"endTime":634.28,"body":"if we were making, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":628.1,"endTime":634.28,"body":"orange juice, like my my father"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":634.28,"endTime":640.66,"body":"was, you know, as the head"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":634.28,"endTime":640.66,"body":"chemist for, you know, a factory"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":640.96,"endTime":647.2,"body":"in Israel, or POM Granat juice,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":640.96,"endTime":647.2,"body":"more recently, there's actually"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":647.2,"endTime":651.4,"body":"making the juice. You want zero"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":647.2,"endTime":651.4,"body":"variability in making the juice,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":651.46,"endTime":656.68,"body":"and you want to have very formal"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":651.46,"endTime":656.68,"body":"ISO certified, whatever"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":657.22,"endTime":661.68,"body":"production lines that you know"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":657.22,"endTime":661.68,"body":"from time to time, you want to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":661.68,"endTime":664.08,"body":"be able to change. You want to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":661.68,"endTime":664.08,"body":"be able to improve the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":664.08,"endTime":667.26,"body":"production line, and you want to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":664.08,"endTime":667.26,"body":"play around with different"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":669.54,"endTime":676.86,"body":"recipes for the juice that make"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":669.54,"endTime":676.86,"body":"it more addictive, healthier,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":676.86,"endTime":680.12,"body":"whatever, whatever you're trying"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":676.86,"endTime":680.12,"body":"to optimize for. That's new"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":680.12,"endTime":683.24,"body":"product development. That's"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":680.12,"endTime":683.24,"body":"what's happening in the lab,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":684.02,"endTime":687.44,"body":"where people with the white"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":684.02,"endTime":687.44,"body":"coats are well, the production"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":687.44,"endTime":692.78,"body":"floor is running in the lab. You"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":687.44,"endTime":692.78,"body":"use different processes. You"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":692.78,"endTime":696.2,"body":"want faster feedback times."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":692.78,"endTime":696.2,"body":"You're okay with variability."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":696.2,"endTime":698.84,"body":"You're okay with today, we'll"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":696.2,"endTime":698.84,"body":"try something, and there's a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":698.84,"endTime":702.82,"body":"good chance that it would not"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":698.84,"endTime":702.82,"body":"work. Now there's a third level"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":703.12,"endTime":707.92,"body":"that I think you're talking"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":703.12,"endTime":707.92,"body":"about, which is creating the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":707.92,"endTime":714.82,"body":"right lab operating system."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":707.92,"endTime":714.82,"body":"Yeah, and are we can we actually"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":715.12,"endTime":718.9,"body":"turn around faster in the lab?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":715.12,"endTime":718.9,"body":"Can we use new equipment that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":718.9,"endTime":723.36,"body":"makes us more effective, more"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":718.9,"endTime":723.36,"body":"efficient. Can we reduce waste?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":723.36,"endTime":728.58,"body":"Can we do more with the same"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":723.36,"endTime":728.58,"body":"people? Can we use AI to find,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":728.58,"endTime":732.72,"body":"you know, recipes out of the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":728.58,"endTime":732.72,"body":"1000 possible or millions"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":732.72,"endTime":735.96,"body":"possible recipes, which are the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":732.72,"endTime":735.96,"body":"ones we should start with, like"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":735.96,"endTime":740.28,"body":"our friends in you know, the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":735.96,"endTime":740.28,"body":"biotech industry in the Boston"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":740.28,"endTime":743.84,"body":"area are trying to leverage AI"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":740.28,"endTime":743.84,"body":"for these things, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":744.14,"endTime":748.52,"body":"developing those capabilities"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":744.14,"endTime":748.52,"body":"and changing, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":748.52,"endTime":752.0,"body":"interactions between the people"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":748.52,"endTime":752.0,"body":"and the different steps in the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":752.0,"endTime":755.36,"body":"lab is also something that you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":752.0,"endTime":755.36,"body":"want to change. I think your"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":755.36,"endTime":768.76,"body":"criticism for safe is about is"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":755.36,"endTime":768.76,"body":"safe itself dynamic enough that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":768.76,"endTime":772.72,"body":"it would allow you to change"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":768.76,"endTime":772.72,"body":"your lab as frequently as you'd"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":772.72,"endTime":781.98,"body":"like? I think there's valid that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":772.72,"endTime":781.98,"body":"that's valid criticism, both for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":781.98,"endTime":786.48,"body":"safe and for Scrum, that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":781.98,"endTime":786.48,"body":"something in the way we deploy"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":786.54,"endTime":791.82,"body":"these approaches and the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":786.54,"endTime":791.82,"body":"industrial complex around them"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":791.94,"endTime":796.68,"body":"has made it very hard for people"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":791.94,"endTime":796.68,"body":"to see that they can actually"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":797.4,"endTime":801.2,"body":"use them as frameworks and not"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":797.4,"endTime":801.2,"body":"methodologies, Even though both"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":801.2,"endTime":804.08,"body":"are called frameworks, Scrum is"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":801.2,"endTime":804.08,"body":"a framework, and safe is a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":804.08,"endTime":807.68,"body":"framework. They both should be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":804.08,"endTime":807.68,"body":"starting points. They both"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":807.68,"endTime":812.12,"body":"should be, you know, adapted for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":807.68,"endTime":812.12,"body":"your needs as an organization."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":812.12,"endTime":815.0,"body":"But it's hard for organizations"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":812.12,"endTime":815.0,"body":"to realize that. It's much"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":815.06,"endTime":819.02,"body":"easier to apply them"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":815.06,"endTime":819.02,"body":"consistently across 1000s of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":819.02,"endTime":831.7,"body":"people that that's i Yes, that's"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":819.02,"endTime":831.7,"body":"a thing for sure. I think if you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":832.06,"endTime":837.64,"body":"another interesting question"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":832.06,"endTime":837.64,"body":"that we might we could do some"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":837.64,"endTime":841.2,"body":"thinking about, I've done some"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":837.64,"endTime":841.2,"body":"thinking about it is out of the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":841.2,"endTime":848.16,"body":"box, does safe as a framework,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":841.2,"endTime":848.16,"body":"support an agile product,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":848.16,"endTime":853.02,"body":"operating model, or do you need"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":848.16,"endTime":853.02,"body":"to? Are there major"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":853.02,"endTime":856.98,"body":"incompatibilities that we need"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":853.02,"endTime":856.98,"body":"to do something about? So can"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":857.04,"endTime":862.46,"body":"it? So what I've seen is that it"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":857.04,"endTime":862.46,"body":"mostly can. Like there are,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":864.38,"endTime":869.54,"body":"there are some gaps. If you look"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":864.38,"endTime":869.54,"body":"at safe portfolio level, it does"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":869.54,"endTime":872.78,"body":"talk about outcome orientation."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":869.54,"endTime":872.78,"body":"It does talk about an epic"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":872.78,"endTime":878.12,"body":"hypothesis. It does talk about"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":872.78,"endTime":878.12,"body":"the MVP cycle. If you look at"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":878.96,"endTime":882.1,"body":"agile product development in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":878.96,"endTime":882.1,"body":"safe which is what you do at the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":882.1,"endTime":885.94,"body":"edge of release train level. It"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":882.1,"endTime":885.94,"body":"does talk about product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":885.94,"endTime":889.96,"body":"management and empowering"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":885.94,"endTime":889.96,"body":"product owners, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":889.96,"endTime":893.2,"body":"having a benefit hypothesis for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":889.96,"endTime":893.2,"body":"the features that you choose"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":893.2,"endTime":897.28,"body":"that allows you flexibility in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":893.2,"endTime":897.28,"body":"what are the stories that you'll"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":897.28,"endTime":902.22,"body":"actually choose to implement for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":897.28,"endTime":902.22,"body":"that? Feature, having said that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":902.94,"endTime":907.26,"body":"the fact that you focus on"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":902.94,"endTime":907.26,"body":"features rather than outcomes is"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":907.26,"endTime":912.78,"body":"an issue. So that's something"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":907.26,"endTime":912.78,"body":"I'm working on. What might safe"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":912.78,"endTime":919.8,"body":"look like without features, or"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":912.78,"endTime":919.8,"body":"what could replace or how, at a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":919.8,"endTime":922.28,"body":"minimum, what I'm doing right"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":919.8,"endTime":922.28,"body":"now is making sure that the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":922.28,"endTime":926.24,"body":"features, even though that's the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":922.28,"endTime":926.24,"body":"name of the entity, are mostly"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":926.24,"endTime":930.2,"body":"outcome oriented. That's the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":926.24,"endTime":930.2,"body":"minimum viable change, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":930.44,"endTime":935.24,"body":"without changing too much. And"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":930.44,"endTime":935.24,"body":"of course, when people go into"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":935.24,"endTime":939.02,"body":"pi planning, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":935.24,"endTime":939.02,"body":"planning, increment quarterly"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":939.02,"endTime":943.84,"body":"planning, that's such a core"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":939.02,"endTime":943.84,"body":"part of safe a lot of the time,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":943.84,"endTime":947.98,"body":"what they plan is outputs, and"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":943.84,"endTime":947.98,"body":"they go way too deep into"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":947.98,"endTime":953.92,"body":"planning outputs, for sometimes"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":947.98,"endTime":953.92,"body":"a good reason, like the genesis"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":953.92,"endTime":960.22,"body":"of this is we want to have"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":953.92,"endTime":960.22,"body":"enough understanding of the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":960.22,"endTime":964.02,"body":"dependencies and what we will"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":960.22,"endTime":964.02,"body":"need from each other to have a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":964.02,"endTime":968.28,"body":"realistic plan to improve the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":964.02,"endTime":968.28,"body":"predictability of organizations"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":968.28,"endTime":973.14,"body":"that are often totally"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":968.28,"endTime":973.14,"body":"unpredictable with very low"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":973.14,"endTime":977.64,"body":"trust from the rest of the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":973.14,"endTime":977.64,"body":"organization. So quarterly"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":977.64,"endTime":982.7,"body":"planning, the safe style,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":977.64,"endTime":982.7,"body":"improves that but needs to be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":982.7,"endTime":986.78,"body":"reimagined for, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":982.7,"endTime":986.78,"body":"truly product oriented"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":986.84,"endTime":991.88,"body":"organization, I can share that."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":986.84,"endTime":991.88,"body":"What I'm seeing in the trenches"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":991.88,"endTime":996.2,"body":"is that a lot of times you talk"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":991.88,"endTime":996.2,"body":"about product orientation, and"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":996.2,"endTime":999.68,"body":"you want to aim towards that,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":996.2,"endTime":999.68,"body":"but your business stakeholders,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1000.04,"endTime":1004.98,"body":"the people that are going to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1000.04,"endTime":1004.98,"body":"leverage those products they"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1004.98,"endTime":1009.0,"body":"first, you know, want to build"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1004.98,"endTime":1009.0,"body":"the trust that you have the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1009.0,"endTime":1013.08,"body":"capability to deliver. You talk"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1009.0,"endTime":1013.08,"body":"to them about trust us, we are"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1013.08,"endTime":1016.14,"body":"able to deliver those outcomes,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1013.08,"endTime":1016.14,"body":"or tell us what outcomes you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1016.14,"endTime":1018.96,"body":"want, not you know, what are the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1016.14,"endTime":1018.96,"body":"projects that you really need?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1019.56,"endTime":1026.3,"body":"And they're not at that level of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1019.56,"endTime":1026.3,"body":"trust, to really empower you to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1026.3,"endTime":1029.96,"body":"hunt those outcomes they want"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1026.3,"endTime":1029.96,"body":"first, to see that you can"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1029.96,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"actually deliver that's like a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1029.96,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"chicken and egg problem that you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1034.16,"endTime":1036.92,"body":"face when you're implementing"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1034.16,"endTime":1036.92,"body":"product orientation."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1038.119,"endTime":1041.739,"body":"I do want to, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1038.119,"endTime":1041.739,"body":"I see that all the time, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1041.919,"endTime":1046.839,"body":"ultimately the trust, whether it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1041.919,"endTime":1046.839,"body":"be explicit or implicit, is kind"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1046.839,"endTime":1050.199,"body":"of missing, which requires this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1046.839,"endTime":1050.199,"body":"level of planning you're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1050.199,"endTime":1054.099,"body":"describing. It requires you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1050.199,"endTime":1054.099,"body":"know, the understanding of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1054.099,"endTime":1057.519,"body":"dependencies, the understanding"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1054.099,"endTime":1057.519,"body":"of critical path, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1057.519,"endTime":1062.459,"body":"ultimately makes it more like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1057.519,"endTime":1062.459,"body":"works being done at the team"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1062.459,"endTime":1066.479,"body":"level, less value is being"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1062.459,"endTime":1066.479,"body":"delivered. But I just you talked"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1066.479,"endTime":1071.699,"body":"about income is safe incomplete,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1066.479,"endTime":1071.699,"body":"and you highlighted some areas"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1071.699,"endTime":1074.879,"body":"particularly not incomplete, but"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1071.699,"endTime":1074.879,"body":"doesn't sort of takes you in the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1074.879,"endTime":1078.179,"body":"wrong. Maybe features takes you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1074.879,"endTime":1078.179,"body":"in the wrong direction. Maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1078.179,"endTime":1081.379,"body":"the portfolio playing process"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1078.179,"endTime":1081.379,"body":"could be a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1081.379,"endTime":1084.859,"body":"outcome centric and less"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1081.379,"endTime":1084.859,"body":"rigorous. You know, did it? Did"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1085.159,"endTime":1089.239,"body":"etc. There's also things missing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1085.159,"endTime":1089.239,"body":"from safe, you know, in terms"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1089.239,"endTime":1092.179,"body":"of, they don't talk about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1089.239,"endTime":1092.179,"body":"incentives, they don't really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1092.179,"endTime":1094.819,"body":"talk about, well, to my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1092.179,"endTime":1094.819,"body":"knowledge, and obviously, you're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1094.819,"endTime":1099.199,"body":"a safe fellow, Yuval, and you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1094.819,"endTime":1099.199,"body":"can put me right here, but what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1099.199,"endTime":1103.359,"body":"I am thinking increasingly is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1099.199,"endTime":1103.359,"body":"you have to approach each"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1103.359,"endTime":1107.739,"body":"product holistically and build"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1103.359,"endTime":1107.739,"body":"an operating model that supports"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1107.739,"endTime":1111.279,"body":"that. So things like incentives"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1107.739,"endTime":1111.279,"body":"need to be in place and aligned."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1111.579,"endTime":1115.299,"body":"You need to ensure that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1111.579,"endTime":1115.299,"body":"governance processes that aren't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1115.599,"endTime":1119.199,"body":"the delivery processes or the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1115.599,"endTime":1119.199,"body":"development or the discovery"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1119.199,"endTime":1122.099,"body":"processes, governance is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1119.199,"endTime":1122.099,"body":"something different need to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1122.099,"endTime":1127.199,"body":"well understood, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1122.099,"endTime":1127.199,"body":"appropriate measures put in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1127.199,"endTime":1130.859,"body":"place. You need to think a lot"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1127.199,"endTime":1130.859,"body":"about organization structure,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1131.219,"endTime":1134.579,"body":"and you know, how do you do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1131.219,"endTime":1134.579,"body":"that? You know, particularly if"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1134.579,"endTime":1137.699,"body":"you're building cross functional"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1134.579,"endTime":1137.699,"body":"teams, you need to think of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1137.699,"endTime":1140.959,"body":"that. Now, I know that there's,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1137.699,"endTime":1140.959,"body":"there's lots of case studies and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1140.959,"endTime":1144.079,"body":"other materials that talk about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1140.959,"endTime":1144.079,"body":"those things in the context of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1144.079,"endTime":1149.239,"body":"safe but, but that sort of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1144.079,"endTime":1149.239,"body":"holistic chain unit of change"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1149.239,"endTime":1153.259,"body":"approach, I think, is missing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1149.239,"endTime":1153.259,"body":"from what I've observed,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1153.439,"endTime":1156.739,"body":"certainly from the way I've seen"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1153.439,"endTime":1156.739,"body":"it implemented. Most people"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1156.739,"endTime":1159.319,"body":"implement it in their existing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1156.739,"endTime":1159.319,"body":"organizations, with their"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1159.319,"endTime":1162.519,"body":"existing incentives, with their"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1159.319,"endTime":1162.519,"body":"existing governance processes,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1162.819,"endTime":1169.119,"body":"and then shoehorn it in, as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1162.819,"endTime":1169.119,"body":"opposed to making a I don't want"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1169.119,"endTime":1171.819,"body":"to say it is a significant"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1169.119,"endTime":1171.819,"body":"change to change to a product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1171.819,"endTime":1176.139,"body":"operating model, but what's your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1171.819,"endTime":1176.139,"body":"experience? There? Am I wrong?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1176.139,"endTime":1178.059,"body":"And I'm just, you know sort of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1178.36,"endTime":1181.38,"body":"you're not wrong"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1178.36,"endTime":1181.38,"body":"that most organizations are"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1181.38,"endTime":1186.84,"body":"implementing safe theater."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1181.38,"endTime":1186.84,"body":"You're not wrong that. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1191.16,"body":"I'm not seeing that as very"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1191.16,"body":"different than the scrum theater"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1191.16,"endTime":1192.18,"body":"I'm seeing out there."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1192.6,"endTime":1195.06,"body":"No, completely agree."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1192.6,"endTime":1195.06,"body":"Don't say any different. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1195.06,"endTime":1195.96,"body":"wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1196.14,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"the way I look at"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1196.14,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"it, a lot of the questions and."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1202.64,"body":"Aspects that you're talking"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1202.64,"body":"about. Safe does have a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1202.64,"endTime":1206.54,"body":"perspective on them. Safe does"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1202.64,"endTime":1206.54,"body":"talk about governance. It does"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1206.54,"endTime":1211.46,"body":"talk about the choices that you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1206.54,"endTime":1211.46,"body":"can make around organizational"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1216.62,"body":"topology. Let's call it that it,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1216.62,"body":"you know, allows you flexibility"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1216.62,"endTime":1219.62,"body":"on organizational structure. And"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1216.62,"endTime":1219.62,"body":"I think that makes sense. It"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1219.62,"endTime":1222.88,"body":"talks about the dual operating"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1219.62,"endTime":1222.88,"body":"system, and the fact, yeah, in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1222.88,"endTime":1227.86,"body":"order to create a product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1222.88,"endTime":1227.86,"body":"oriented organization, it"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1227.86,"endTime":1232.06,"body":"doesn't call it that, but it"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1227.86,"endTime":1232.06,"body":"talks about the value oriented"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1232.06,"endTime":1239.86,"body":"network. And organizing around"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1232.06,"endTime":1239.86,"body":"value is a key part of of safe"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1240.7,"endTime":1246.78,"body":"moving away from traditional"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1240.7,"endTime":1246.78,"body":"funding models and governance"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1246.78,"endTime":1252.12,"body":"models towards leaner, more"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1246.78,"endTime":1252.12,"body":"product oriented ones are part"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1252.12,"endTime":1259.02,"body":"of safe they just come with so"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1252.12,"endTime":1259.02,"body":"much other stuff that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1259.02,"endTime":1262.04,"body":"organizations are missing. You"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1259.02,"endTime":1262.04,"body":"know, the connection between"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1262.04,"endTime":1267.8,"body":"product orientation and what's"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1262.04,"endTime":1267.8,"body":"there in save and it's also some"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1267.8,"endTime":1273.08,"body":"of the things that are harder to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1267.8,"endTime":1273.08,"body":"implement than, you know, pi"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1273.08,"endTime":1276.98,"body":"planning, although a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1273.08,"endTime":1276.98,"body":"conversation with you know, a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1276.98,"endTime":1282.1,"body":"lady at the big bank yesterday"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1276.98,"endTime":1282.1,"body":"reminds me how hard it is to get"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1282.1,"endTime":1286.6,"body":"people into a room, even a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1282.1,"endTime":1286.6,"body":"virtual one, and spending time"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1286.6,"endTime":1290.56,"body":"together. So let's put that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1286.6,"endTime":1290.56,"body":"aside. But there are harder"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1290.56,"endTime":1295.54,"body":"things about becoming a product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1290.56,"endTime":1295.54,"body":"oriented organization. Those are"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1295.54,"endTime":1298.96,"body":"typically also the harder things"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1295.54,"endTime":1298.96,"body":"about Scrum and the harder"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1298.96,"endTime":1305.04,"body":"things about safe. So I think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1298.96,"endTime":1305.04,"body":"what we need to acknowledge is"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1305.04,"endTime":1311.76,"body":"the dynamics in the market the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1305.04,"endTime":1311.76,"body":"you know, there's a series of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1311.76,"endTime":1318.9,"body":"organizations and the consulting"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1311.76,"endTime":1318.9,"body":"ecosystem around those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1318.9,"endTime":1322.88,"body":"organizations that has tried to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1318.9,"endTime":1322.88,"body":"implement Scrum, to help those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1322.88,"endTime":1326.6,"body":"organizations become more agile"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1322.88,"endTime":1326.6,"body":"and to make money along the way,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1327.56,"endTime":1331.94,"body":"that got those organizations"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1327.56,"endTime":1331.94,"body":"somewhere and made those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1331.94,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"consulting firms quite a bit of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1331.94,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"Money. Also, the certification"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1344.68,"body":"bodies have benefited as well,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1344.68,"body":"but that hasn't gotten"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1344.68,"endTime":1348.4,"body":"organizations to really be agile"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1344.68,"endTime":1348.4,"body":"because they were afraid of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1348.4,"endTime":1352.18,"body":"making some of those changes."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1348.4,"endTime":1352.18,"body":"They you know, those are hard"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1352.18,"endTime":1356.74,"body":"changes. So there was another"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1352.18,"endTime":1356.74,"body":"round, the round of scaling"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1356.74,"endTime":1361.62,"body":"agile safe, you know, was"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1356.74,"endTime":1361.62,"body":"brought in to do that other"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1361.92,"endTime":1367.14,"body":"organizations use this Spotify"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1361.92,"endTime":1367.14,"body":"model or large scale Scrum, or"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1367.14,"endTime":1372.12,"body":"scrum at scale. Everybody tried"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1367.14,"endTime":1372.12,"body":"to build the thing that will be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1372.12,"endTime":1379.38,"body":"used in, you know, in that, in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1372.12,"endTime":1379.38,"body":"that more recent cycle. But even"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1379.38,"endTime":1382.46,"body":"that didn't really get us the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1379.38,"endTime":1382.46,"body":"results that we need. Because"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1382.46,"endTime":1386.42,"body":"organizations, again, we're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1382.46,"endTime":1386.42,"body":"looking for a silver bullet, not"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1386.42,"endTime":1390.02,"body":"to really reorganize around"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1386.42,"endTime":1390.02,"body":"value, not to really change"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1390.02,"endTime":1393.26,"body":"their governance model, or to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1390.02,"endTime":1393.26,"body":"break the silos between the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1393.26,"endTime":1397.1,"body":"business and the product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1393.26,"endTime":1397.1,"body":"organization. Some organizations"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1397.1,"endTime":1400.96,"body":"at that point, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1397.1,"endTime":1400.96,"body":"implemented a lot of prop or"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1401.08,"endTime":1403.9,"body":"introduced a lot of product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1401.08,"endTime":1403.9,"body":"owners to their organization,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1403.9,"endTime":1407.26,"body":"but didn't really have a product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1403.9,"endTime":1407.26,"body":"organization. I have P I have"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1407.26,"endTime":1410.26,"body":"organizations which have, I'm"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1407.26,"endTime":1410.26,"body":"working with organizations that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1410.26,"endTime":1414.28,"body":"have hundreds of product owners"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1410.26,"endTime":1414.28,"body":"but still don't have a chief"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1414.28,"endTime":1417.88,"body":"product officer for the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1414.28,"endTime":1417.88,"body":"organization because they"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1417.88,"endTime":1424.98,"body":"haven't really made that change?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1417.88,"endTime":1424.98,"body":"Yes. And now there's the new"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1424.98,"endTime":1430.32,"body":"thing, which is, okay, another"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1424.98,"endTime":1430.32,"body":"round. We can sell another"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1430.32,"endTime":1434.22,"body":"consulting gig, you know, to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1430.32,"endTime":1434.22,"body":"these organizations. We can't"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1434.22,"endTime":1439.02,"body":"sell a scaled, agile gig"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1434.22,"endTime":1439.02,"body":"anymore. We can potentially"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1439.02,"endTime":1445.22,"body":"sell, you know, let's go product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1439.02,"endTime":1445.22,"body":"oriented. At this point, I think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1445.22,"endTime":1448.22,"body":"there's a lot of potential in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1445.22,"endTime":1448.22,"body":"that. I want to be the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1448.22,"endTime":1455.24,"body":"optimistic and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1448.22,"endTime":1455.24,"body":"realize that change for these"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1455.3,"endTime":1461.26,"body":"mega organizations that have so"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1455.3,"endTime":1461.26,"body":"much history so many systems."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1461.26,"endTime":1464.2,"body":"It's hard. It's just natural"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1461.26,"endTime":1464.2,"body":"that it takes those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1464.2,"endTime":1469.6,"body":"organizations time to implement"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1464.2,"endTime":1469.6,"body":"these changes. And you know, the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1469.6,"endTime":1474.04,"body":"way, you know, we can manage"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1469.6,"endTime":1474.04,"body":"that change that will take, I"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1474.04,"endTime":1477.7,"body":"don't know, a decade for an"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1474.04,"endTime":1477.7,"body":"organization to really transform"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1482.52,"body":"is, you know, to do it through"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1482.52,"body":"three different cycles. One"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1482.52,"endTime":1486.3,"body":"cycle is the team level agile."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1482.52,"endTime":1486.3,"body":"Another is the Agile led scale"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1486.3,"endTime":1489.0,"body":"and the you know now it's the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1486.3,"endTime":1489.0,"body":"product, and maybe we'll need"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1489.0,"endTime":1495.84,"body":"another round, and that is okay."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1489.0,"endTime":1495.84,"body":"What what we should try to avoid"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1497.34,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"is for this new round of. This"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1497.34,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"product oriented, product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1510.32,"body":"operating model to be just"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1510.32,"body":"another layer of veneer on top"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1510.32,"endTime":1516.08,"body":"of the things we really do, if"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1510.32,"endTime":1516.08,"body":"on the other end, it does, you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1516.08,"endTime":1522.1,"body":"know, get us one step further on"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1516.08,"endTime":1522.1,"body":"the journey a bit more outcome"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1522.1,"endTime":1525.7,"body":"oriented, a bit more empowered,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1522.1,"endTime":1525.7,"body":"a bit more evidence oriented"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1525.7,"endTime":1532.0,"body":"than empiric, then I'm all for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1525.7,"endTime":1532.0,"body":"you know this, this latest stage"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1532.0,"endTime":1534.94,"body":"in the in the journey of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1532.0,"endTime":1534.94,"body":"organizations, I'm all on board."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1535.48,"endTime":1535.78,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1535.78,"endTime":1540.9,"body":"I'm more optimistic"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1535.78,"endTime":1540.9,"body":"than pessimistic. You know, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1540.9,"endTime":1544.02,"body":"pessimist in me goes well. We"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1540.9,"endTime":1544.02,"body":"tried it with Scrum. We tried it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1544.02,"endTime":1546.42,"body":"with scale. Now we're trying it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1544.02,"endTime":1546.42,"body":"with product. It's all the same"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1546.42,"endTime":1549.54,"body":"old thing. It will fail. The"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1546.42,"endTime":1549.54,"body":"optimist, which is more my"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1549.54,"endTime":1553.56,"body":"natural bias, believes that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1549.54,"endTime":1553.56,"body":"actually, at team level, we did"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1553.56,"endTime":1557.1,"body":"some amazing things. People"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1553.56,"endTime":1557.1,"body":"actually deliver stuff. Now, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1557.1,"endTime":1560.6,"body":"know, done is maybe not 100%"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1557.1,"endTime":1560.6,"body":"done, but it's pretty close,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1560.6,"endTime":1565.64,"body":"better than it was testing is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1560.6,"endTime":1565.64,"body":"that, you know, testing, there"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1565.64,"endTime":1568.64,"body":"are separate testing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1565.64,"endTime":1568.64,"body":"organizations, maybe in the IV"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1568.64,"endTime":1571.82,"body":"and V area, independent"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1568.64,"endTime":1571.82,"body":"verification and validation, but"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1571.82,"endTime":1575.18,"body":"at the team level, you we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1571.82,"endTime":1575.18,"body":"wouldn't we mix those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1575.42,"endTime":1579.02,"body":"disciplines. Now, when I started"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1575.42,"endTime":1579.02,"body":"work, testing was a whole"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1579.02,"endTime":1582.94,"body":"different department with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1579.02,"endTime":1582.94,"body":"different people who were no fun"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1582.94,"endTime":1587.74,"body":"at parties, usually. And now"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1582.94,"endTime":1587.74,"body":"it's all more integrated,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1587.8,"endTime":1592.24,"body":"integrating the fun, I guess, or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1587.8,"endTime":1592.24,"body":"whatever. So, you know, and then"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1592.24,"endTime":1596.08,"body":"scaling has actually helped in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1592.24,"endTime":1596.08,"body":"places, you know. I think that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1596.14,"endTime":1600.6,"body":"what you're talking about, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1596.14,"endTime":1600.6,"body":"know, pi planning, even though"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1600.66,"endTime":1606.12,"body":"it drives me mad that we, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1600.66,"endTime":1606.12,"body":"teams, that most of the work"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1606.12,"endTime":1608.88,"body":"that teams do come from pi"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1606.12,"endTime":1608.88,"body":"planning, which drives me"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1608.88,"endTime":1611.46,"body":"insane. And that's something I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1608.88,"endTime":1611.46,"body":"know, you and I both agree on,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1611.64,"endTime":1616.74,"body":"but it has actually unified and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1611.64,"endTime":1616.74,"body":"given a cadence and taken some"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1616.74,"endTime":1621.14,"body":"complexity out of out of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1616.74,"endTime":1621.14,"body":"situation. You know, some of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1621.14,"endTime":1624.8,"body":"the release train thing has"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1621.14,"endTime":1624.8,"body":"definitely helped, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1624.8,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"terms of integrated releases,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1624.8,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"that when it, when you've got"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1627.74,"endTime":1631.04,"body":"1000s of people, or hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1627.74,"endTime":1631.04,"body":"people working on 1000s of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1631.04,"endTime":1634.4,"body":"systems, you know, there's that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1631.04,"endTime":1634.4,"body":"we definitely evolved. And I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1634.4,"endTime":1638.66,"body":"think the product is, is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1634.4,"endTime":1638.66,"body":"definitely the next evolution on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1638.66,"endTime":1644.56,"body":"that, which I am also optimistic"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1638.66,"endTime":1644.56,"body":"that will break down that divide"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1644.56,"endTime":1649.3,"body":"between business and technology"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1644.56,"endTime":1649.3,"body":"will simplify the alignment of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1649.3,"endTime":1654.46,"body":"people to outcomes, will"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1649.3,"endTime":1654.46,"body":"optimize the sort of like the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1654.46,"endTime":1659.32,"body":"focus of a lab rather than"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1654.46,"endTime":1659.32,"body":"factory mentality, as you called"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1659.32,"endTime":1666.48,"body":"it. I'm very optimistic about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1659.32,"endTime":1666.48,"body":"that. Do you though, do you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1666.48,"endTime":1670.74,"body":"think that you talked about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1666.48,"endTime":1670.74,"body":"trying to make some changes to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1670.74,"endTime":1674.82,"body":"the to safe with that regard? Do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1670.74,"endTime":1674.82,"body":"you think that safe is going to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1674.82,"endTime":1679.62,"body":"start taking more of the product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1674.82,"endTime":1679.62,"body":"model nomenclature up, you know?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1679.68,"endTime":1683.42,"body":"Or do you, you know, the last"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1679.68,"endTime":1683.42,"body":"release was, from what I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1683.42,"endTime":1686.18,"body":"understand, is all about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1683.42,"endTime":1686.18,"body":"simplification, which was, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1686.18,"endTime":1689.66,"body":"is great and needed, and I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1686.18,"endTime":1689.66,"body":"appreciate that work. But do you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1689.66,"endTime":1692.24,"body":"think that that, that it, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1689.66,"endTime":1692.24,"body":"it will,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1693.68,"endTime":1696.14,"body":"yeah. I mean, if"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1693.68,"endTime":1696.14,"body":"you look at the recent,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1696.14,"endTime":1702.16,"body":"simplified big picture, it does"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1696.14,"endTime":1702.16,"body":"emphasize product innovation and"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1702.4,"endTime":1708.76,"body":"flow to feedback and some aspect"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1702.4,"endTime":1708.76,"body":"that you can tie more closely to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1708.76,"endTime":1716.14,"body":"the product world. And I"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1708.76,"endTime":1716.14,"body":"wouldn't be surprised to see"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1716.14,"endTime":1719.68,"body":"that that trend continues to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1716.14,"endTime":1719.68,"body":"save people. We can say a lot of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1719.68,"endTime":1724.08,"body":"things about them, but they're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1719.68,"endTime":1724.08,"body":"connected to their market. They"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1725.16,"endTime":1729.3,"body":"understand what's valuable to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1725.16,"endTime":1729.3,"body":"their customers, and they're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1729.3,"endTime":1734.22,"body":"accelerating their feedback"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1729.3,"endTime":1734.22,"body":"loops as well. So yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1734.22,"endTime":1742.64,"body":"it's definitely gonna be part of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1734.22,"endTime":1742.64,"body":"the taxonomy of safe. I think a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1742.64,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"more interesting question is,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1742.64,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"how much of the essence of safe"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1756.26,"body":"is gonna be reimagined to be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1756.26,"body":"more product oriented. Are we"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1756.26,"endTime":1763.54,"body":"gonna see significant changes to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1756.26,"endTime":1763.54,"body":"pi planning, yeah, and features"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1763.54,"endTime":1768.46,"body":"and what we actually manage in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1763.54,"endTime":1768.46,"body":"the backlogs, in safe especially"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1768.46,"endTime":1775.48,"body":"in the art and team level, I"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1768.46,"endTime":1775.48,"body":"hope, I mean, I'm certainly"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1775.48,"endTime":1783.24,"body":"going to do My part to provide"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1775.48,"endTime":1783.24,"body":"some more and more thinking and"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1784.44,"endTime":1790.5,"body":"guidance on what that looks"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1784.44,"endTime":1790.5,"body":"like. My customers are pulling"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1790.5,"endTime":1795.54,"body":"me to do that work. I have"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1790.5,"endTime":1795.54,"body":"multiple organizations right now"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1795.54,"endTime":1800.36,"body":"that you know are asking to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1795.54,"endTime":1800.36,"body":"reimagine what pi. Planning"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1800.36,"endTime":1807.62,"body":"looks like to be more outcome"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1800.36,"endTime":1807.62,"body":"oriented, more enabling us to be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1807.62,"endTime":1812.36,"body":"more agile and more empowered"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1807.62,"endTime":1812.36,"body":"during the PIs. So that's"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1812.42,"endTime":1818.54,"body":"definitely something I'll be"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1812.42,"endTime":1818.54,"body":"spending time on. And"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1818.54,"endTime":1823.6,"body":"interestingly enough, it's also"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1818.54,"endTime":1823.6,"body":"very similar to some of what"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1825.28,"endTime":1828.7,"body":"another type of organizations"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1825.28,"endTime":1828.7,"body":"are asking organizations that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1828.7,"endTime":1835.18,"body":"are using OKRs to manage a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1828.7,"endTime":1835.18,"body":"company or to manage more than"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1835.18,"endTime":1839.26,"body":"product development, they're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1835.18,"endTime":1839.26,"body":"also struggling with quarterly"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1839.26,"endTime":1846.12,"body":"planning. They're also you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1839.26,"endTime":1846.12,"body":"feeling like they need to plan"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1846.18,"endTime":1850.98,"body":"too much up front, and they"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1846.18,"endTime":1850.98,"body":"spend too much time doing this,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1850.98,"endTime":1855.78,"body":"and it doesn't leave them enough"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1850.98,"endTime":1855.78,"body":"flexibility to do the right"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1855.78,"endTime":1860.04,"body":"thing along the way, to really"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1855.78,"endTime":1860.04,"body":"seek outcomes, even if those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1860.04,"endTime":1863.78,"body":"outcomes are not product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1860.04,"endTime":1863.78,"body":"outcomes to seek outcomes during"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1863.78,"endTime":1870.08,"body":"the quarter. So a lot of things"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1863.78,"endTime":1870.08,"body":"are converging. It's, yeah, book"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1870.08,"endTime":1871.34,"body":"somewhere, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1871.34,"endTime":1873.8,"body":"probably is a book."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1871.34,"endTime":1873.8,"body":"Well, there's going to be at"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1873.8,"endTime":1877.34,"body":"least a white paper, just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1873.8,"endTime":1877.34,"body":"listeners. It's not out yet, so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1877.34,"endTime":1881.5,"body":"you maybe listen to us before"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1877.34,"endTime":1881.5,"body":"it's out. But it's something"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1881.5,"endTime":1886.06,"body":"that Yuval and I were working on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1881.5,"endTime":1886.06,"body":"yesterday and and it may end up"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1886.06,"endTime":1889.36,"body":"with a becoming a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1886.06,"endTime":1889.36,"body":"product@scrum.org not that I'm,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1889.84,"endTime":1892.96,"body":"you know, so future, and we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1889.84,"endTime":1892.96,"body":"can't make these predictions. My"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1892.96,"endTime":1897.34,"body":"lawyers hate that, but I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1892.96,"endTime":1897.34,"body":"it's very likely that this, this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1897.34,"endTime":1899.86,"body":"challenge of managing a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1897.34,"endTime":1899.86,"body":"portfolio, is something that is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1899.86,"endTime":1904.62,"body":"manifest both in organizations"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1899.86,"endTime":1904.62,"body":"doing Scaled Agile, but doing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1904.62,"endTime":1908.22,"body":"less, doing whatever. I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1904.62,"endTime":1908.22,"body":"it's just a natural problem."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1909.48,"endTime":1915.9,"body":"Yeah, even Nexus. Well, yes,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1909.48,"endTime":1915.9,"body":"even Nexus, which is good. So"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1916.32,"endTime":1920.04,"body":"the last question I've got,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1916.32,"endTime":1920.04,"body":"really, is, all right, for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1920.04,"endTime":1922.58,"body":"people that are listening, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1920.04,"endTime":1922.58,"body":"are doing Scaled Agile, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1923.06,"endTime":1927.2,"body":"doing some professional Scrum,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1923.06,"endTime":1927.2,"body":"and they want to become more"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1927.2,"endTime":1931.58,"body":"product centric, what's the next"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1927.2,"endTime":1931.58,"body":"thing? What's the first thing?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1931.58,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"The next thing? What should they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1931.58,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"do next? I guess they should"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1935.06,"endTime":1935.72,"body":"probably"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1935.72,"endTime":1938.6,"body":"start to think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1935.72,"endTime":1938.6,"body":"about, what does it actually"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1938.6,"endTime":1946.12,"body":"mean for us to adopt a product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1938.6,"endTime":1946.12,"body":"operating model. If what they're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1947.74,"endTime":1953.26,"body":"looking at is portfolio level,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1947.74,"endTime":1953.26,"body":"product operating model or"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1953.26,"endTime":1956.62,"body":"applying product orientation to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1953.26,"endTime":1956.62,"body":"the portfolio level, then they"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1956.62,"endTime":1962.58,"body":"can definitely take a look at an"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1956.62,"endTime":1962.58,"body":"email course I created called"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1962.58,"endTime":1968.28,"body":"portfolio agility trail map that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1962.58,"endTime":1968.28,"body":"essentially talks about, you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1968.28,"endTime":1976.2,"body":"know, some concrete, yet small,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1968.28,"endTime":1976.2,"body":"practical steps towards applying"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1976.2,"endTime":1979.56,"body":"product orientation at the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1976.2,"endTime":1979.56,"body":"portfolio level. And first of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1979.56,"endTime":1983.84,"body":"all, why should you even care?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1979.56,"endTime":1983.84,"body":"It's probably a good start. They"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1983.84,"endTime":1988.4,"body":"should look at, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1983.84,"endTime":1988.4,"body":"materials that we're releasing"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1988.4,"endTime":1992.54,"body":"about the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1988.4,"endTime":1992.54,"body":"operating model and compare that"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1992.54,"endTime":1996.26,"body":"to what they're actually doing."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1992.54,"endTime":1996.26,"body":"One of the things that that I've"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1996.26,"endTime":2001.56,"body":"done with clients is crystallize"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":1996.26,"endTime":2001.56,"body":"the product operating model to a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2001.56,"endTime":2007.92,"body":"set of principles that you need"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2001.56,"endTime":2007.92,"body":"to align to how you do that in"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2007.92,"endTime":2012.78,"body":"your context might vary, but"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2007.92,"endTime":2012.78,"body":"those principles are really"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2012.78,"endTime":2017.46,"body":"things to to consider, and you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2012.78,"endTime":2017.46,"body":"can apply them at the portfolio"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2017.46,"endTime":2021.08,"body":"level. You can apply them at the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2017.46,"endTime":2021.08,"body":"product level or even at the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2021.08,"endTime":2027.8,"body":"team level, things like, are we"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2021.08,"endTime":2027.8,"body":"empowering our people to to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2027.8,"endTime":2030.98,"body":"actually make decisions along"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2027.8,"endTime":2030.98,"body":"the way? Are we steering using"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2030.98,"endTime":2036.44,"body":"evidence? Are we aligning to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2030.98,"endTime":2036.44,"body":"what's strategic without"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2036.44,"endTime":2041.62,"body":"micromanaging those kind of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2036.44,"endTime":2041.62,"body":"principles? They're not anything"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2041.62,"endTime":2045.94,"body":"new. And to be honest, it's a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2041.62,"endTime":2045.94,"body":"minimum. An organization that is"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2045.94,"endTime":2049.84,"body":"implementing safe, for example,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2045.94,"endTime":2049.84,"body":"would do well to go back to the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2049.84,"endTime":2053.38,"body":"safe principles and assess how"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2049.84,"endTime":2053.38,"body":"they're doing on those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2053.38,"endTime":2056.98,"body":"principles. The technique that I"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2053.38,"endTime":2056.98,"body":"really like is the echo cycle,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2057.58,"endTime":2063.54,"body":"and I learned it the phase first"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2057.58,"endTime":2063.54,"body":"time in you know, the advanced"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2063.54,"endTime":2068.28,"body":"professional scrum master"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2063.54,"endTime":2068.28,"body":"workshop, which is like a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2068.4,"endTime":2073.14,"body":"liberating structure party, more"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2068.4,"endTime":2073.14,"body":"than anything else"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2074.699,"endTime":2077.279,"body":"we do, like our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2074.699,"endTime":2077.279,"body":"liberating structures, like"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2077.34,"endTime":2079.92,"body":"our liberating"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2077.34,"endTime":2079.92,"body":"structures, but take Those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2079.92,"endTime":2083.9,"body":"principles and put them on an"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2079.92,"endTime":2083.9,"body":"eco cycle and see which of those"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2083.9,"endTime":2088.82,"body":"principles your you feel are"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2083.9,"endTime":2088.82,"body":"mature in your organization,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2088.88,"endTime":2093.8,"body":"which of those you still need to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2088.88,"endTime":2093.8,"body":"do some work on. Are there"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2093.8,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"principles that don't make"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2093.8,"endTime":2097.76,"body":"sense? Maybe add the Agile"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2101.26,"body":"Manifesto principles along the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2097.76,"endTime":2101.26,"body":"way and. And you know, see how"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2101.26,"endTime":2105.22,"body":"you're doing. That's probably"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2101.26,"endTime":2105.22,"body":"not a bad way to start to think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2105.22,"endTime":2110.44,"body":"about product orientation"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2105.22,"endTime":2110.44,"body":"either. The last thing I would"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2110.44,"endTime":2120.84,"body":"suggest is there is a lot of a"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2110.44,"endTime":2120.84,"body":"lot of overlap between what we"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2120.84,"endTime":2124.44,"body":"talk about in evidence based"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2120.84,"endTime":2124.44,"body":"management and product discovery"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2124.44,"endTime":2128.46,"body":"and validation and the product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2124.44,"endTime":2128.46,"body":"operating model. So if you're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2128.52,"endTime":2132.48,"body":"interested in becoming more"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2128.52,"endTime":2132.48,"body":"product oriented, becoming more"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2132.48,"endTime":2138.3,"body":"evidence based, and treating"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2132.48,"endTime":2138.3,"body":"your work more like product bets"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2138.42,"endTime":2142.94,"body":"and experiments and navigating"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2138.42,"endTime":2142.94,"body":"the truth curve rather than just"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2142.94,"endTime":2147.8,"body":"building stuff is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2142.94,"endTime":2147.8,"body":"probably not a bad place to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2147.8,"endTime":2148.64,"body":"start either. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2148.64,"endTime":2151.1,"body":"it was a really hard"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2148.64,"endTime":2151.1,"body":"question, because it depends on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2151.28,"endTime":2155.54,"body":"where people are at in their in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2151.28,"endTime":2155.54,"body":"their journey. But I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2155.9,"endTime":2162.16,"body":"whatever happens, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2155.9,"endTime":2162.16,"body":"the looking at your current work"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2162.16,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"to make sure it's more outcome"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2162.16,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"centric. Look at your the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2165.58,"endTime":2169.54,"body":"principles that are driving the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2165.58,"endTime":2169.54,"body":"change that you implemented,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2169.54,"endTime":2173.32,"body":"save Scrum, whatever, and seeing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2169.54,"endTime":2173.32,"body":"where there is a disconnect"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2173.32,"endTime":2176.26,"body":"between that, whether it's at"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2173.32,"endTime":2176.26,"body":"the team level, the portfolio"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2176.26,"endTime":2180.06,"body":"level or the organization level,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2176.26,"endTime":2180.06,"body":"depending on who you are, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2180.06,"endTime":2185.64,"body":"think, is great wisdom and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2180.06,"endTime":2185.64,"body":"something that we we should all,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2185.64,"endTime":2190.14,"body":"we should all learn from thanks"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2185.64,"endTime":2190.14,"body":"for your time. We try to keep"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2190.14,"endTime":2193.44,"body":"this short which is which is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2190.14,"endTime":2193.44,"body":"completely impossible on a topic"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2193.44,"endTime":2196.98,"body":"as interesting, as far ranging"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2193.44,"endTime":2196.98,"body":"as this. So we've only really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2196.98,"endTime":2200.36,"body":"gonna sort of like the surface,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2196.98,"endTime":2200.36,"body":"unfortunately. But thank you for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2200.36,"endTime":2205.22,"body":"taking the time to share your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2200.36,"endTime":2205.22,"body":"your perspective with our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2205.22,"endTime":2206.24,"body":"listeners. Happy"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2206.24,"endTime":2213.86,"body":"to Dave, maybe one"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2206.24,"endTime":2213.86,"body":"last thought is, as I was"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2213.86,"endTime":2218.54,"body":"thinking about the answer to"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2213.86,"endTime":2218.54,"body":"your to your question, I think"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2218.54,"endTime":2223.18,"body":"there's even a simpler answer,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2218.54,"endTime":2223.18,"body":"if your product owners are the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2223.18,"endTime":2227.62,"body":"right people, and they're"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2223.18,"endTime":2227.62,"body":"empowered to do great product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2227.62,"endTime":2233.14,"body":"ownership, you're probably well"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2227.62,"endTime":2233.14,"body":"off on the journey towards being"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2233.14,"endTime":2237.04,"body":"a product oriented organization."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2233.14,"endTime":2237.04,"body":"The answer for most organization"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2237.04,"endTime":2239.44,"body":"will be that that's not the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2237.04,"endTime":2239.44,"body":"case, not necessarily because"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2239.44,"endTime":2242.34,"body":"you have the wrong people, but"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2239.44,"endTime":2242.34,"body":"because the ecosystem doesn't"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2242.34,"endTime":2246.36,"body":"enable them to be but what you"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2242.34,"endTime":2246.36,"body":"can do is you can take a look at"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2246.36,"endTime":2251.22,"body":"the misunderstood stances of"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2246.36,"endTime":2251.22,"body":"product ownership, the preferred"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2251.22,"endTime":2255.66,"body":"stances, and assess where do we"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2251.22,"endTime":2255.66,"body":"stand on these things, and just"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2255.84,"endTime":2260.22,"body":"trying to make an incremental"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2255.84,"endTime":2260.22,"body":"improvement towards Some of the"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2260.22,"endTime":2265.58,"body":"preferred stances is probably"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2260.22,"endTime":2265.58,"body":"going to help you drive towards"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2266.06,"endTime":2268.82,"body":"a more product oriented"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2266.06,"endTime":2268.82,"body":"organization. We talked"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2268.82,"endTime":2273.08,"body":"yesterday about the product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2268.82,"endTime":2273.08,"body":"ownership capabilities workshop."},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2274.1,"endTime":2279.92,"body":"That's an ideal setup for"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2274.1,"endTime":2279.92,"body":"actually having these"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2279.92,"endTime":2285.64,"body":"conversations around, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2279.92,"endTime":2285.64,"body":"are we set up around products?"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2285.7,"endTime":2289.42,"body":"Are we set up in a product"},{"speaker":"Yuval Yeret","startTime":2285.7,"endTime":2289.42,"body":"oriented fashion? It's,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2289.42,"endTime":2291.34,"body":"it's, it's really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2289.42,"endTime":2291.34,"body":"funny. You bring it back to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2291.34,"endTime":2295.6,"body":"that, that workshop, because"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2291.34,"endTime":2295.6,"body":"part of the reason why I started"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2295.6,"endTime":2298.66,"body":"writing about a palm agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2295.6,"endTime":2298.66,"body":"product operating model was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2298.66,"endTime":2302.58,"body":"because I was delivering that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2298.66,"endTime":2302.58,"body":"workshop, working with others on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2302.58,"endTime":2306.54,"body":"that workshop, and finding that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2302.58,"endTime":2306.54,"body":"it highlighted so many"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2306.54,"endTime":2311.4,"body":"dysfunctions in the organization"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2306.54,"endTime":2311.4,"body":"that it required us to sort of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2311.4,"endTime":2316.62,"body":"say, No, this is what good looks"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2311.4,"endTime":2316.62,"body":"like, and because the product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2316.62,"endTime":2322.82,"body":"owner, as you rightly said, is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2316.62,"endTime":2322.82,"body":"the intersection of the pain, of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2323.0,"endTime":2326.84,"body":"the challenges of becoming, of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2323.0,"endTime":2326.84,"body":"really being a product owner in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2326.84,"endTime":2329.54,"body":"an organization that's not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2326.84,"endTime":2329.54,"body":"that's designed around projects."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2329.54,"endTime":2332.42,"body":"So it's funny that it all goes"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2329.54,"endTime":2332.42,"body":"back to that, because it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2332.42,"endTime":2337.22,"body":"almost comes full circle. Wow,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2332.42,"endTime":2337.22,"body":"cool. Well, thank thanks for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2337.22,"endTime":2340.9,"body":"joining us. Thanks listeners."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2337.22,"endTime":2340.9,"body":"Thanks for joining us today. We"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2340.9,"endTime":2344.74,"body":"were with Yuval. Yuval yuette,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2340.9,"endTime":2344.74,"body":"he's been on this podcast maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2344.86,"endTime":2348.94,"body":"almost as many times as me. It"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2344.86,"endTime":2348.94,"body":"feels like a PST and safe fellow"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2348.94,"endTime":2353.26,"body":"talking about how a palm the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2348.94,"endTime":2353.26,"body":"Agile product, operating model"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2353.26,"endTime":2358.42,"body":"and Scaled Agile Framework safe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2353.26,"endTime":2358.42,"body":"can live together, and hopefully"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2358.42,"endTime":2362.34,"body":"it's been useful. We We went on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2358.42,"endTime":2362.34,"body":"a on a journey, talking about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2362.34,"endTime":2366.12,"body":"some of the challenges, some of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2362.34,"endTime":2366.12,"body":"the things that people maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2366.12,"endTime":2372.12,"body":"misinterpret around safe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2366.12,"endTime":2372.12,"body":"implementations. And we talked"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2372.12,"endTime":2374.64,"body":"about one thing that I just want"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2372.12,"endTime":2374.64,"body":"to remind everybody, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2374.64,"endTime":2378.9,"body":"factories, let's be labs, not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2374.64,"endTime":2378.9,"body":"factories, which is you may see"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2378.9,"endTime":2384.26,"body":"on a t shirt in the future."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2378.9,"endTime":2384.26,"body":"Maybe it's a really good sort of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2384.98,"endTime":2389.0,"body":"description of the change that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2384.98,"endTime":2389.0,"body":"we're seeking in the product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2389.0,"endTime":2391.94,"body":"operating model and building an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2389.0,"endTime":2391.94,"body":"operating model to sustain that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2391.94,"endTime":2397.64,"body":"kind of lab practice and fund"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2391.94,"endTime":2397.64,"body":"those labs appropriately with a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2397.64,"endTime":2401.32,"body":"portfolio planning approach and."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2397.64,"endTime":2401.32,"body":"Um, I think super, super"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2401.32,"endTime":2405.22,"body":"interesting. So if that's one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2401.32,"endTime":2405.22,"body":"takeaway, maybe that's the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2405.22,"endTime":2408.7,"body":"takeaway you should you should"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2405.22,"endTime":2408.7,"body":"take and thank you listeners for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2408.7,"endTime":2412.54,"body":"listening today to the scrum.org"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2408.7,"endTime":2412.54,"body":"community podcast. If you liked"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2412.54,"endTime":2415.42,"body":"what you heard, please"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2412.54,"endTime":2415.42,"body":"subscribe, share with friends,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2415.42,"endTime":2418.9,"body":"and, of course, come back and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2415.42,"endTime":2418.9,"body":"listen some more. I'm lucky"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2418.9,"endTime":2422.1,"body":"enough to have a variety of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2418.9,"endTime":2422.1,"body":"guests, yes, sometimes you veil,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2422.16,"endTime":2425.64,"body":"often Yuval, but other people as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2422.16,"endTime":2425.64,"body":"well, talking about everything"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2425.64,"endTime":2428.82,"body":"in the air, professional Scrum,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2425.64,"endTime":2428.82,"body":"product thinking, and of course,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2428.82,"endTime":2431.52,"body":"agile, thank you and Scrum on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2428.82,"endTime":2431.52,"body":"you."}]}