{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.86,"body":"Steve, welcome"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.86,"body":"to the scrum.org community"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.86,"endTime":9.18,"body":"podcast, a podcast from the home"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.86,"endTime":9.18,"body":"of Scrum. In this podcast, we"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":9.18,"endTime":11.64,"body":"feature professional scrum"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":9.18,"endTime":11.64,"body":"trainers and other scrum"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"practitioners sharing their"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"stories and experiences to help"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"learn from the experience of"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"others. We hope you enjoy this"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":18.66,"endTime":21.32,"body":"episode. Hello and welcome"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":21.32,"endTime":23.54,"body":"to the scrum.org"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":21.32,"endTime":23.54,"body":"community podcast. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":23.54,"endTime":27.32,"body":"host, Dave West, CEO,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":23.54,"endTime":27.32,"body":"here@scrum.org in today's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":27.32,"endTime":30.32,"body":"podcast, we're lucky to talk to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":27.32,"endTime":30.32,"body":"David Spinks, a professional"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":30.32,"endTime":32.66,"body":"scrum trainer, and he's gonna be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":30.32,"endTime":32.66,"body":"talking to us about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":32.66,"endTime":36.68,"body":"transparency, and when"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":32.66,"endTime":36.68,"body":"transparency hurts, that sounds"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.68,"endTime":39.2,"body":"that sounds awful, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.68,"endTime":39.2,"body":"But anyway, welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":39.2,"endTime":40.36,"body":"podcast, David."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":41.26,"endTime":43.06,"body":"Thank you very"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":41.26,"endTime":43.06,"body":"much. Dave, pleasure to be here."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":43.06,"endTime":44.8,"body":"Thank you for having me on the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":43.06,"endTime":44.8,"body":"podcast."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":45.1,"endTime":48.16,"body":"It's great. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":45.1,"endTime":48.16,"body":"actually the reason why we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":48.16,"endTime":52.9,"body":"invited you and scheduled this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":48.16,"endTime":52.9,"body":"was because you recently wrote a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":53.02,"endTime":58.48,"body":"blog about transparency that I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":53.02,"endTime":58.48,"body":"was fortunate enough to read."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":58.48,"endTime":64.14,"body":"The title is when transparency"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":58.48,"endTime":64.14,"body":"hurts in toxic environments,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":64.14,"endTime":70.26,"body":"right? So the the word toxic and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":64.14,"endTime":70.26,"body":"hurt made me instantly read it,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":70.26,"endTime":74.88,"body":"which probably says awful things"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":70.26,"endTime":74.88,"body":"about me, but I was, I was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":74.88,"endTime":80.76,"body":"really intrigued by it. So tell"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":74.88,"endTime":80.76,"body":"me a little bit about why you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.76,"endTime":84.8,"body":"wrote about transparency and in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.76,"endTime":84.8,"body":"particular, how it hurting"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":84.8,"endTime":87.86,"body":"rather than helping. Yes, it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":87.92,"endTime":90.2,"body":"it was a there's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":87.92,"endTime":90.2,"body":"an idea for a blog that's kind"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":90.2,"endTime":93.86,"body":"of been in my head for a while."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":90.2,"endTime":93.86,"body":"You kind of see these sort of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":93.86,"endTime":97.58,"body":"posts and comments on things"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":93.86,"endTime":97.58,"body":"like social media. If you've"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":97.58,"endTime":100.36,"body":"never been fired as a Scrum"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":97.58,"endTime":100.36,"body":"Master, you're no good kind of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":100.36,"endTime":104.02,"body":"insinuating that you've kind of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":100.36,"endTime":104.02,"body":"got to die on your sword for,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":104.32,"endTime":108.04,"body":"you know, to push things like"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":104.32,"endTime":108.04,"body":"transparency. So it kind of got"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":108.04,"endTime":112.84,"body":"me thinking. I mean, first of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":108.04,"endTime":112.84,"body":"all, transparency is a core part"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":112.84,"endTime":115.54,"body":"of Scrum, right? If the team and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":112.84,"endTime":115.54,"body":"the organization is healthy,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":115.54,"endTime":118.24,"body":"transparency is brilliant,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":115.54,"endTime":118.24,"body":"right? It means that we can make"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":118.24,"endTime":121.98,"body":"better decisions. It means that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":118.24,"endTime":121.98,"body":"our decisions are going to be"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":121.98,"endTime":125.64,"body":"based on good evidence and data."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":121.98,"endTime":125.64,"body":"Because it's transparent, it"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":125.64,"endTime":130.2,"body":"means that we can take the right"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":125.64,"endTime":130.2,"body":"actions. Transparency is a great"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":130.5,"endTime":134.88,"body":"tool for building trust, so the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":130.5,"endTime":134.88,"body":"list goes on. But if we can't"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":135.3,"endTime":140.18,"body":"just shout about transparency"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":135.3,"endTime":140.18,"body":"and expect miracles to happen if"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":140.18,"endTime":144.02,"body":"the culture is not right for it."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":140.18,"endTime":144.02,"body":"So I'm thinking that, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":144.02,"endTime":147.32,"body":"and I've seen it myself. In a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":144.02,"endTime":147.32,"body":"lot of environments, people"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":147.32,"endTime":150.44,"body":"might be punished for making"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":147.32,"endTime":150.44,"body":"mistakes even if they're trying"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":150.44,"endTime":153.38,"body":"to do the right thing. Or in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":150.44,"endTime":153.38,"body":"other environments, people being"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":153.38,"endTime":157.1,"body":"micromanaged. Some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":153.38,"endTime":157.1,"body":"organizations, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":157.1,"endTime":161.32,"body":"politics involved, or the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":157.1,"endTime":161.32,"body":"culture is such that people are"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":161.32,"endTime":164.44,"body":"just kind of out for themselves,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":161.32,"endTime":164.44,"body":"really like that. You know these"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":164.44,"endTime":167.26,"body":"reward systems that reward"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":164.44,"endTime":167.26,"body":"individuals rather than teams"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":167.26,"endTime":170.02,"body":"that we often see in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":167.26,"endTime":170.02,"body":"organizations. So in these sorts"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":170.02,"endTime":173.56,"body":"of places, full blown"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":170.02,"endTime":173.56,"body":"Transparency can become a bit of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":173.56,"endTime":177.34,"body":"a weapon. So if the environment"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":173.56,"endTime":177.34,"body":"does have that toxicity to it,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":177.34,"endTime":181.38,"body":"if the scrum values are not"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":177.34,"endTime":181.38,"body":"really followed, if we push"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":181.5,"endTime":186.3,"body":"transparency too hard, some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":181.5,"endTime":186.3,"body":"people can be burned for being"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":186.3,"endTime":190.2,"body":"open, for being transparent. So"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":186.3,"endTime":190.2,"body":"like I say, when I see this"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":190.2,"endTime":193.56,"body":"advice out there about Scrum"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":190.2,"endTime":193.56,"body":"Masters and agile practitioners,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":193.56,"endTime":196.86,"body":"we should die on our sword in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":193.56,"endTime":196.86,"body":"the name of full transparency, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":196.86,"endTime":200.36,"body":"feel maybe that's a bit"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":196.86,"endTime":200.36,"body":"idealistic, and I kind of just"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":200.36,"endTime":203.78,"body":"wanted to sort of counter"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":200.36,"endTime":203.78,"body":"opinion out there with the blog"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":203.78,"endTime":206.24,"body":"and to say, hey, need to be a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":203.78,"endTime":206.24,"body":"bit more pragmatic."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":207.2,"endTime":211.82,"body":"I think I've heard"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":207.2,"endTime":211.82,"body":"many Scrum Masters talk about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":212.36,"endTime":219.14,"body":"their desire to, you know, be so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":212.36,"endTime":219.14,"body":"supporting of the scrum values"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":219.14,"endTime":222.82,"body":"that if an organization can't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":219.14,"endTime":222.82,"body":"live up to them, that they will"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":222.82,"endTime":226.06,"body":"leave and and that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":222.82,"endTime":226.06,"body":"fair play to them if that's what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":226.06,"endTime":230.56,"body":"they want. However, ultimately,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":226.06,"endTime":230.56,"body":"how many opportunities are we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":230.56,"endTime":234.4,"body":"not delivering on and how many"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":230.56,"endTime":234.4,"body":"situations are we not helping?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":234.7,"endTime":240.58,"body":"Because transparency is a trait"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":234.7,"endTime":240.58,"body":"of an environment. You know, how"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":240.58,"endTime":244.32,"body":"transparent can you be in a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":240.58,"endTime":244.32,"body":"particular environment, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":244.5,"endTime":247.62,"body":"each environment is very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":244.5,"endTime":247.62,"body":"different, and the culture of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":247.62,"endTime":253.32,"body":"those environments, what we what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":247.62,"endTime":253.32,"body":"we reward, both literally with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":253.32,"endTime":258.84,"body":"bonuses, promotions and and less"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":253.32,"endTime":258.84,"body":"visibly with power and status."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":260.04,"endTime":263.24,"body":"What which of those is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":260.04,"endTime":263.24,"body":"important, what we reward is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":263.24,"endTime":267.86,"body":"important so and, and I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":263.24,"endTime":267.86,"body":"transparency is something that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":267.86,"endTime":272.84,"body":"is incredibly important for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":267.86,"endTime":272.84,"body":"scrum to succeed, however, to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":272.84,"endTime":276.38,"body":"get there is is a journey,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":272.84,"endTime":276.38,"body":"right? And I think that's what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":276.38,"endTime":281.14,"body":"you were talking about around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":276.38,"endTime":281.14,"body":"how you can be aware of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":281.14,"endTime":284.74,"body":"environment and manage"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":281.14,"endTime":284.74,"body":"accordingly. Talk a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":284.74,"endTime":286.84,"body":"about that. I mean, all right,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":284.74,"endTime":286.84,"body":"you're in this toxic"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":286.84,"endTime":289.78,"body":"environment, working this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":286.84,"endTime":289.78,"body":"investment bank where everybody"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":289.78,"endTime":292.0,"body":"swears at each other and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":289.78,"endTime":292.0,"body":"they're, you know, they're all"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":292.0,"endTime":294.58,"body":"wearing big suits. Actually, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":292.0,"endTime":294.58,"body":"probably they don't do that. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":294.58,"endTime":297.22,"body":"was thinking of Wolf of Wall"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":294.58,"endTime":297.22,"body":"Street there for a minute, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":297.28,"endTime":300.24,"body":"is probably or Wall Street the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":297.28,"endTime":300.24,"body":"movie with Michael do. Ugly."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":300.24,"endTime":302.64,"body":"That's probably not the world"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":300.24,"endTime":302.64,"body":"now, they're probably wearing,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":302.64,"endTime":305.04,"body":"you know, Lululemon or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":302.64,"endTime":305.04,"body":"something, but, but they're in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":305.04,"endTime":309.24,"body":"this, you know, investment bank,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":305.04,"endTime":309.24,"body":"high, you know, high energy, lot"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":309.24,"endTime":313.74,"body":"of swearing, a lot of shouting,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":309.24,"endTime":313.74,"body":"very what you describe as toxic."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":314.16,"endTime":318.9,"body":"You know, you're trying to build"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":314.16,"endTime":318.9,"body":"a product for them. We know that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":318.96,"endTime":322.16,"body":"transparency is crucial to Scrum"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":318.96,"endTime":322.16,"body":"and the product to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":322.16,"endTime":327.2,"body":"successful. What do we do?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":322.16,"endTime":327.2,"body":"David, I think"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":328.16,"endTime":329.96,"body":"just thinking"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":328.16,"endTime":329.96,"body":"about what you've said there, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":329.96,"endTime":332.78,"body":"was thinking, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":329.96,"endTime":332.78,"body":"transparency is at all, it's,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":332.84,"endTime":336.32,"body":"it's, I don't see it just as the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":332.84,"endTime":336.32,"body":"goal, like we're just not doing"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":336.32,"endTime":339.62,"body":"being transparent for the sake"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":336.32,"endTime":339.62,"body":"of it. So what we trying to do"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":339.62,"endTime":344.08,"body":"with transparency, and as I said"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":339.62,"endTime":344.08,"body":"before, it's about making the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":344.08,"endTime":347.86,"body":"right information available,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":344.08,"endTime":347.86,"body":"making decision making better."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":348.82,"endTime":355.96,"body":"It's about building trust. So"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":348.82,"endTime":355.96,"body":"you're right. It's, it's part of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":355.96,"endTime":358.96,"body":"a cultural thing, right? We"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":355.96,"endTime":358.96,"body":"can't change the culture"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":358.96,"endTime":363.54,"body":"overnight. Implementing Scrum is"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":358.96,"endTime":363.54,"body":"maybe the easy bit. We can get"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":363.72,"endTime":366.18,"body":"people up to speed with their"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":363.72,"endTime":366.18,"body":"scrum events, what the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":366.18,"endTime":369.0,"body":"accountabilities are, etc."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":366.18,"endTime":369.0,"body":"That's the easy part. But I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":369.0,"endTime":372.84,"body":"think what we're talking about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":369.0,"endTime":372.84,"body":"here is changing the culture to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":372.84,"endTime":375.36,"body":"enable the right level of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":372.84,"endTime":375.36,"body":"transparency that we need, and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":375.36,"endTime":379.44,"body":"that takes time. So my advice"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":375.36,"endTime":379.44,"body":"is, a scrum master as a as a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":379.44,"endTime":382.94,"body":"change agent, it's, it's it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":379.44,"endTime":382.94,"body":"doing these little things over"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":382.94,"endTime":387.8,"body":"time. It's being the model for"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":382.94,"endTime":387.8,"body":"transparency in the way that you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":387.8,"endTime":391.1,"body":"act as well, and that sort of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":387.8,"endTime":391.1,"body":"stuff can start to influence"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":391.1,"endTime":394.04,"body":"other people. So it's these"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":391.1,"endTime":394.04,"body":"things to influence, rather than"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":394.04,"endTime":396.86,"body":"sort of waving the scrum guide"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":394.04,"endTime":396.86,"body":"around and saying, we need to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":396.86,"endTime":403.72,"body":"follow these values. It's being"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":396.86,"endTime":403.72,"body":"that example of transparency,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":405.7,"endTime":409.06,"body":"you know, admitting when you're"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":405.7,"endTime":409.06,"body":"uncertain or when there's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":409.06,"endTime":413.86,"body":"uncertainty in the environment,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":409.06,"endTime":413.86,"body":"embracing that, it's also"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":413.86,"endTime":418.24,"body":"understanding the context as"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":413.86,"endTime":418.24,"body":"well, right? Where is the team?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":418.24,"endTime":420.34,"body":"Where's the organization at"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":418.24,"endTime":420.34,"body":"where are they? Meet them, where"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":420.34,"endTime":422.76,"body":"they are. And you know, that's a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":420.34,"endTime":422.76,"body":"that's a saying we often say, in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":422.82,"endTime":431.52,"body":"our in our in our realm, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":422.82,"endTime":431.52,"body":"suppose. So it's looking out for"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":431.52,"endTime":434.46,"body":"those small opportunities, even"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":431.52,"endTime":434.46,"body":"if it's on a one to one basis."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":434.46,"endTime":437.52,"body":"Is there an opportunity to give"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":434.46,"endTime":437.52,"body":"someone the opportunity to speak"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":437.52,"endTime":440.4,"body":"out or be transparent a way that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":437.52,"endTime":440.4,"body":"they might not have been before?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":440.46,"endTime":444.62,"body":"And again, it's building up that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":440.46,"endTime":444.62,"body":"trust and safety, sort of over"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":444.62,"endTime":447.56,"body":"time. It's working with the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":444.62,"endTime":447.56,"body":"right people, with the right"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":447.56,"endTime":451.7,"body":"authority to look at how you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":447.56,"endTime":451.7,"body":"know, they behave, how how"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":451.7,"endTime":455.36,"body":"people are rewarded. Are people"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":451.7,"endTime":455.36,"body":"rewarded for individual heroics?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":455.6,"endTime":458.3,"body":"Maybe that's something we should"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":455.6,"endTime":458.3,"body":"sort of look and point towards"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":458.3,"endTime":464.08,"body":"and say, hey. The consequence of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":458.3,"endTime":464.08,"body":"that is this sort of follow on"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":464.08,"endTime":468.82,"body":"behavior. So again, I think it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":464.08,"endTime":468.82,"body":"changing agents and Scrum"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":468.82,"endTime":473.8,"body":"Masters. Part of what we need to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":468.82,"endTime":473.8,"body":"do is there's a line that I used"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":473.8,"endTime":476.98,"body":"in the blog, which was about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":473.8,"endTime":476.98,"body":"transparency, isn't about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":476.98,"endTime":483.0,"body":"shouting the truth, it's about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":476.98,"endTime":483.0,"body":"illuminating the way. So it"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":483.0,"endTime":486.6,"body":"sounds more of a softly, softer"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":483.0,"endTime":486.6,"body":"year approach, but I think it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":486.6,"endTime":491.16,"body":"like I say, holding up a mirror"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":486.6,"endTime":491.16,"body":"rather than, you know, shoving a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":491.16,"endTime":493.02,"body":"light in people's face, if that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":491.16,"endTime":493.02,"body":"makes sense."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":493.44,"endTime":496.26,"body":"Yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":493.44,"endTime":496.26,"body":"what's interesting is, let's use"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":496.26,"endTime":499.98,"body":"that investment banker bank as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":496.26,"endTime":499.98,"body":"an as an example. This is a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":499.98,"endTime":503.12,"body":"fictitious bank. We are not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":499.98,"endTime":503.12,"body":"going to be sued by any large"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":503.12,"endTime":507.2,"body":"Wall Street organization. I'm"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":503.12,"endTime":507.2,"body":"just making this up, but let's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":507.2,"endTime":512.72,"body":"use this investment bank. So,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":507.2,"endTime":512.72,"body":"you know, in a culture where it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":512.72,"endTime":518.9,"body":"is incredibly aggressive, where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":512.72,"endTime":518.9,"body":"it's very, you know, very, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":518.96,"endTime":522.58,"body":"want to say a boys or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":518.96,"endTime":522.58,"body":"that kind of bro kind of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":522.58,"endTime":527.44,"body":"culture, transparency will look"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":522.58,"endTime":527.44,"body":"quite different to in a culture,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":527.5,"endTime":531.34,"body":"you know, even just down the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":527.5,"endTime":531.34,"body":"street at maybe a health"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":531.34,"endTime":535.9,"body":"insurance company or or or a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":531.34,"endTime":535.9,"body":"hospital or something where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":535.9,"endTime":539.62,"body":"there's a different kind of a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":535.9,"endTime":539.62,"body":"kind of environment, For"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":539.62,"endTime":543.66,"body":"instance, an investment bank, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":539.62,"endTime":543.66,"body":"would encourage us to the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":543.66,"endTime":546.78,"body":"transparency through"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":543.66,"endTime":546.78,"body":"documentation, make it all about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":546.78,"endTime":549.48,"body":"the system, not about the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":546.78,"endTime":549.48,"body":"individual, becomes an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":549.48,"endTime":553.2,"body":"incredibly powerful tool there,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":549.48,"endTime":553.2,"body":"because then you're not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":553.26,"endTime":556.2,"body":"positioning yourself as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":553.26,"endTime":556.2,"body":"weakness. In fact, what you're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":556.2,"endTime":559.2,"body":"doing is you're highlighting and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":556.2,"endTime":559.2,"body":"obviously data is important to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":559.2,"endTime":562.76,"body":"investment bankers, whereas"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":559.2,"endTime":562.76,"body":"maybe at this health insurance"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":562.76,"endTime":567.68,"body":"company down the road, the, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":562.76,"endTime":567.68,"body":"know, there it is more about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":567.8,"endTime":574.28,"body":"allowing people to share things"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":567.8,"endTime":574.28,"body":"in a in a facilitated, liberated"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":574.28,"endTime":578.96,"body":"structures kind of way. You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":574.28,"endTime":578.96,"body":"know, there's, I think it, and I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":578.96,"endTime":583.0,"body":"think that's the crucial thing,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":578.96,"endTime":583.0,"body":"right? You have to look at the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":583.0,"endTime":586.3,"body":"environment and respond to it."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":587.38,"endTime":590.14,"body":"Yeah, absolutely,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":587.38,"endTime":590.14,"body":"yeah. Context, context matters,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":590.14,"endTime":593.92,"body":"right? And, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":590.14,"endTime":593.92,"body":"worked as a software developer,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":593.92,"endTime":599.56,"body":"and there's a certain culture of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":593.92,"endTime":599.56,"body":"teams in that place. You know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":599.56,"endTime":604.08,"body":"in. Commerce versus, like I say,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":599.56,"endTime":604.08,"body":"working in a team in finance,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":604.26,"endTime":606.96,"body":"even though it's the same"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":604.26,"endTime":606.96,"body":"industry, even you still get"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":606.96,"endTime":611.34,"body":"very different cultures across"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":606.96,"endTime":611.34,"body":"different companies. And again,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":611.34,"endTime":614.16,"body":"I think that's something that we"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":611.34,"endTime":614.16,"body":"should all be learning as Scrum"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":614.16,"endTime":619.26,"body":"Masters, change agents. It's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":614.16,"endTime":619.26,"body":"recognizing that, you know, a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":620.4,"endTime":623.54,"body":"lot of organizations, a lot of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":620.4,"endTime":623.54,"body":"teams are different culturally,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":624.02,"endTime":626.72,"body":"and something that worked with"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":624.02,"endTime":626.72,"body":"one team might not work with"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":626.72,"endTime":631.34,"body":"another. Some teams might need"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":626.72,"endTime":631.34,"body":"you to go in and be what's the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":631.64,"endTime":635.3,"body":"word I'm looking for?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":631.64,"endTime":635.3,"body":"Dictatorial. I don't want to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":635.3,"endTime":636.08,"body":"Yeah, a little more"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":636.5,"endTime":639.62,"body":"context. A little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":636.5,"endTime":639.62,"body":"more loud, a little bit Yeah, a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":639.62,"endTime":641.98,"body":"bit more confident. Have you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":639.62,"endTime":641.98,"body":"seen this a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":641.98,"endTime":642.82,"body":"confrontational"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":643.24,"endTime":646.18,"body":"and and sometimes"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":643.24,"endTime":646.18,"body":"teams do need that, right? But"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":646.9,"endTime":650.2,"body":"some teams you could maybe just"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":646.9,"endTime":650.2,"body":"get the, not get the reaction"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":650.2,"endTime":654.34,"body":"that you're looking for. But you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":650.2,"endTime":654.34,"body":"could have seen, you know, you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":654.34,"endTime":656.8,"body":"could have experienced that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":654.34,"endTime":656.8,"body":"working with one team. But then"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":656.8,"endTime":659.86,"body":"you go into another team, that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":656.8,"endTime":659.86,"body":"health insurance, that you know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":659.86,"endTime":662.76,"body":"that E commerce team, whatever"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":659.86,"endTime":662.76,"body":"it is, and you know, you might"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":662.76,"endTime":665.22,"body":"push them over an edge, and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":662.76,"endTime":665.22,"body":"again, you break, you broken"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":665.22,"endTime":670.5,"body":"that trust. So yeah, taking that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":665.22,"endTime":670.5,"body":"little bit of investment, that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":670.5,"endTime":673.86,"body":"bit of time just to understand"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":670.5,"endTime":673.86,"body":"the context. And I remember"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":673.86,"endTime":678.3,"body":"reading Ken's first book, he"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":673.86,"endTime":678.3,"body":"kept talking about Scrum being"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":678.3,"endTime":682.52,"body":"the art of the possible, right?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":678.3,"endTime":682.52,"body":"So if you don't understand the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":682.52,"endTime":685.4,"body":"context, how can you even start"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":682.52,"endTime":685.4,"body":"to figure out what's possible"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":685.4,"endTime":688.28,"body":"was, where am I overstepping?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":685.4,"endTime":688.28,"body":"Where am I? Where am I going?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":688.28,"endTime":689.48,"body":"Too far, too fast?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":690.26,"endTime":693.02,"body":"Yeah, I think, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":690.26,"endTime":693.02,"body":"think that that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":693.08,"endTime":695.78,"body":"You know, the the art of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":693.08,"endTime":695.78,"body":"possible is only possible"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":695.78,"endTime":698.54,"body":"because of the people in the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":695.78,"endTime":698.54,"body":"environment and the culture"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":698.54,"endTime":704.86,"body":"around it and and the situation"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":698.54,"endTime":704.86,"body":"is everything you know, and I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":704.86,"endTime":709.36,"body":"think that is, is super"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":704.86,"endTime":709.36,"body":"important that we often, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":709.36,"endTime":713.02,"body":"know, apply, particularly as a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":709.36,"endTime":713.02,"body":"scrum master, there is a there"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":713.02,"endTime":717.58,"body":"is a desire to apply the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":713.02,"endTime":717.58,"body":"playbook that you're interested"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":717.58,"endTime":722.52,"body":"in and You've learned, but"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":717.58,"endTime":722.52,"body":"actually, and one that maybe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":722.7,"endTime":726.12,"body":"errs to your strengths when"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":722.7,"endTime":726.12,"body":"actually you need to apply the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":726.18,"endTime":731.04,"body":"playbook that your audience"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":726.18,"endTime":731.04,"body":"needs in the in the situation"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":731.22,"endTime":735.96,"body":"and experimentation is crucial,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":731.22,"endTime":735.96,"body":"right? David, I mean, ultimately"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":735.96,"endTime":741.98,"body":"trying things and understanding"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":735.96,"endTime":741.98,"body":"the impact of those things,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":742.76,"endTime":744.5,"body":"right? I mean, we"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":742.76,"endTime":744.5,"body":"talk about inspection and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":744.56,"endTime":747.98,"body":"adaptation in scrum all the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":744.56,"endTime":747.98,"body":"time, right? Our other two"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":747.98,"endTime":753.2,"body":"pillars, and that should apply"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":747.98,"endTime":753.2,"body":"to our own approaches, right? We"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":753.2,"endTime":756.26,"body":"come in, we've we're taking some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":753.2,"endTime":756.26,"body":"approach, we've maybe taken on"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":756.26,"endTime":759.44,"body":"that more confrontational"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":756.26,"endTime":759.44,"body":"approach, and we've not got the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":759.44,"endTime":761.62,"body":"reaction that we're looking"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":759.44,"endTime":761.62,"body":"right? We've got the feedback"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":761.62,"endTime":764.98,"body":"that actually this has not been"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":761.62,"endTime":764.98,"body":"effective. We need to adapt our"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":764.98,"endTime":767.86,"body":"approach. Think of something"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":764.98,"endTime":767.86,"body":"else. Try something else"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":768.58,"endTime":771.46,"body":"and and this is where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":768.58,"endTime":771.46,"body":"It's turtles all the way down,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":771.52,"endTime":776.62,"body":"right the how transparent should"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":771.52,"endTime":776.62,"body":"you be about your transparency?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":779.74,"endTime":783.84,"body":"That's an interesting question"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":779.74,"endTime":783.84,"body":"onto itself, because there's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":783.84,"endTime":787.32,"body":"been situations where I've been"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":783.84,"endTime":787.32,"body":"very upfront, and by the way,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":787.32,"endTime":790.2,"body":"I'd like to officially say I'm"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":787.32,"endTime":790.2,"body":"not a scrum master. Should never"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":790.2,"endTime":793.08,"body":"be a Scrum Master. Don't allow"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":790.2,"endTime":793.08,"body":"me to be a scrum master. I am"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":793.08,"endTime":797.28,"body":"not. I do not have those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":793.08,"endTime":797.28,"body":"aspirations or skills. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":797.28,"endTime":800.42,"body":"product person. I love product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":797.28,"endTime":800.42,"body":"ownership. But there are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":800.42,"endTime":806.48,"body":"situations where, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":800.42,"endTime":806.48,"body":"very explicit about my plan and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":806.48,"endTime":810.2,"body":"why I'm approaching things in a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":806.48,"endTime":810.2,"body":"way like this. And there's other"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":810.2,"endTime":814.04,"body":"situations where that actually"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":810.2,"endTime":814.04,"body":"would be counterproductive, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":814.04,"endTime":820.58,"body":"know, and and I I tend to look"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":814.04,"endTime":820.58,"body":"like I'm making it up as I go"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":820.58,"endTime":825.16,"body":"along. And by the way, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":820.58,"endTime":825.16,"body":"that is totally the case. But do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":825.16,"endTime":829.72,"body":"you agree that? Because, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":825.16,"endTime":829.72,"body":"mean, you say walk the values,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":829.72,"endTime":833.68,"body":"but sometimes that can be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":829.72,"endTime":833.68,"body":"challenging unto itself."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":834.04,"endTime":836.14,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":834.04,"endTime":836.14,"body":"I mean, if we talk about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":836.2,"endTime":839.56,"body":"organizations going full"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":836.2,"endTime":839.56,"body":"transparency, I think at the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":839.56,"endTime":843.48,"body":"very least it could just be"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":839.56,"endTime":843.48,"body":"overwhelming for people, right?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":843.72,"endTime":845.88,"body":"It's like there's too much"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":843.72,"endTime":845.88,"body":"information, there's too much"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":845.88,"endTime":849.06,"body":"going on. Oh my god, what about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":845.88,"endTime":849.06,"body":"this? And again, people that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":849.06,"endTime":852.96,"body":"might not fully embraced the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":849.06,"endTime":852.96,"body":"complex world that we live in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":852.96,"endTime":857.04,"body":"and the uncertainty that could"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":852.96,"endTime":857.04,"body":"actually be demotivating and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":857.04,"endTime":861.62,"body":"scary for for some people, in a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":857.04,"endTime":861.62,"body":"way. So yeah, I can, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":861.62,"endTime":867.08,"body":"completely buy into that as"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":861.62,"endTime":867.08,"body":"well. But yeah, full"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":867.08,"endTime":870.14,"body":"transparent. I mean, I know some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":867.08,"endTime":870.14,"body":"come I've heard stories of some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":870.14,"endTime":873.26,"body":"companies where they're saying,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":870.14,"endTime":873.26,"body":"Yeah, full transparency, let's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":873.26,"endTime":876.62,"body":"make everybody salary"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":873.26,"endTime":876.62,"body":"transparent to everybody in the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":876.62,"endTime":881.62,"body":"organization, right? And, okay,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":876.62,"endTime":881.62,"body":"fine, if that works for you,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":882.1,"endTime":885.58,"body":"okay, but I suspect in most"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":882.1,"endTime":885.58,"body":"organizations, that was going to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":885.58,"endTime":890.02,"body":"create more problems. So it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":885.58,"endTime":890.02,"body":"not transparency for the sake of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":890.02,"endTime":893.92,"body":"it, right? It's like, what? Why"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":890.02,"endTime":893.92,"body":"enabling that transparency?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":893.92,"endTime":898.3,"body":"What? How is it helping for"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":893.92,"endTime":898.3,"body":"building trust? How is it"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":898.3,"endTime":900.3,"body":"helping for better decision"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":898.3,"endTime":900.3,"body":"making? 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You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":918.06,"endTime":923.54,"body":"know the market rate, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":923.54,"endTime":929.06,"body":"experience, the you know the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":923.54,"endTime":929.06,"body":"loyalty, the all of that,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":929.06,"endTime":933.86,"body":"because those things are very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":929.06,"endTime":933.86,"body":"nuanced and require high"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":933.86,"endTime":939.5,"body":"bandwidth communication, which"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":933.86,"endTime":939.5,"body":"isn't possible to do to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":939.5,"endTime":944.68,"body":"broadcast and and I know that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":939.5,"endTime":944.68,"body":"sounds like an excuse, and we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":944.68,"endTime":949.42,"body":"have members of our community,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":944.68,"endTime":949.42,"body":"the wouldn't, wouldn't agree of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":949.42,"endTime":954.4,"body":"that. However, the reality is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":949.42,"endTime":954.4,"body":"the new the context is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":954.4,"endTime":956.98,"body":"everything in the example and,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":954.4,"endTime":956.98,"body":"and that's true about other"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":956.98,"endTime":960.84,"body":"things as well. You know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":956.98,"endTime":960.84,"body":"there's nuances, and some of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":960.84,"endTime":964.26,"body":"them, nobody can know"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":960.84,"endTime":964.26,"body":"everything. And one of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":964.26,"endTime":969.36,"body":"biggest challenges I have with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":964.26,"endTime":969.36,"body":"the word transparency is, where"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":969.36,"endTime":973.08,"body":"is that boundary? When? When"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":969.36,"endTime":973.08,"body":"does it become private? Privacy,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":973.08,"endTime":976.62,"body":"for instance, when is it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":973.08,"endTime":976.62,"body":"private? When? So for instance,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":976.68,"endTime":981.92,"body":"a great example. You're working"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":976.68,"endTime":981.92,"body":"in a team. Somebody has a very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":981.92,"endTime":986.0,"body":"personal problem that has"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":981.92,"endTime":986.0,"body":"affected their performance."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":986.12,"endTime":991.7,"body":"You're in a retro situation, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":986.12,"endTime":991.7,"body":"that person doesn't want to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":991.7,"endTime":995.6,"body":"share the fact that his son or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":991.7,"endTime":995.6,"body":"daughter had a drug overdose, or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":995.6,"endTime":1001.02,"body":"is, you know, something that was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":995.6,"endTime":1001.02,"body":"very private. However, the you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1001.02,"endTime":1004.98,"body":"know, it did affect the outcome"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1001.02,"endTime":1004.98,"body":"of the increment. You know, we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1005.1,"endTime":1007.56,"body":"undermined our ability to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1005.1,"endTime":1007.56,"body":"deliver the increment because"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1007.56,"endTime":1010.92,"body":"that person wasn't available, or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1007.56,"endTime":1010.92,"body":"when they were, they were very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1011.94,"endTime":1016.14,"body":"fairly thinking about other"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1011.94,"endTime":1016.14,"body":"things as a leader, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1016.14,"endTime":1020.46,"body":"that that was communicated to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1016.14,"endTime":1020.46,"body":"me, but I can't tell the team."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1020.82,"endTime":1023.6,"body":"That's an example of, what the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1020.82,"endTime":1023.6,"body":"heck do you do in those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1023.6,"endTime":1024.5,"body":"situations?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1024.56,"endTime":1029.18,"body":"Yeah, yeah. And"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1024.56,"endTime":1029.18,"body":"that's even if you've got the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1029.18,"endTime":1031.22,"body":"best culture in the world,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1029.18,"endTime":1031.22,"body":"right, where people are"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1031.22,"endTime":1034.88,"body":"collaborative, and they are, you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1031.22,"endTime":1034.88,"body":"know, working well, and they"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1039.08,"body":"have got that sort of right"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1039.08,"body":"culture in place, there's still"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1039.08,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"a line there, right? You know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1039.08,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"there's a there's that, there's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1041.92,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"that personal boundary and, you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1041.92,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"know, and again, I think"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1044.5,"endTime":1047.68,"body":"transparency is going to be very"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1044.5,"endTime":1047.68,"body":"personal to individuals as well,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1047.68,"endTime":1053.56,"body":"right where, you know, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1047.68,"endTime":1053.56,"body":"a relatively introverted person."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1053.56,"endTime":1055.96,"body":"There's things that I don't"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1053.56,"endTime":1055.96,"body":"particularly like, wouldn't want"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1055.96,"endTime":1060.4,"body":"to be transparent about. You"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1055.96,"endTime":1060.4,"body":"know, there's a separation for"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1060.4,"endTime":1064.2,"body":"me between the teams that I work"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1060.4,"endTime":1064.2,"body":"with them, you know, my personal"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1064.38,"endTime":1068.46,"body":"life. So, yeah, I think there's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1064.38,"endTime":1068.46,"body":"a there's these, these personal"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1068.46,"endTime":1070.92,"body":"values come into it as well, and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1068.46,"endTime":1070.92,"body":"these personal boundaries,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1071.4,"endTime":1073.74,"body":"yeah, and the word"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1071.4,"endTime":1073.74,"body":"professional is an interesting"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1073.74,"endTime":1077.64,"body":"one in that context, because,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1073.74,"endTime":1077.64,"body":"you know, when I started work in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1077.76,"endTime":1085.64,"body":"92 gosh, I feel ridiculously old"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1077.76,"endTime":1085.64,"body":"now. And it was, there was a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1086.18,"endTime":1090.26,"body":"separation of work and home was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1086.18,"endTime":1090.26,"body":"very, very important. But the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1096.14,"body":"the, you know, over time, that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1096.14,"body":"become less important, maybe,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1096.14,"endTime":1098.48,"body":"but there are certain things"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1096.14,"endTime":1098.48,"body":"where it's still incredibly"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1098.48,"endTime":1103.84,"body":"important. And I think it an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1098.48,"endTime":1103.84,"body":"environment can be just as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1103.84,"endTime":1109.96,"body":"toxic. And you use the word"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1103.84,"endTime":1109.96,"body":"toxic when we force people that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1109.96,"endTime":1115.54,"body":"aren't comfortable in that to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1109.96,"endTime":1115.54,"body":"like, because that's the norm,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1115.54,"endTime":1119.02,"body":"you know, like, Oh, what did you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1115.54,"endTime":1119.02,"body":"do at the weekend? Who are you?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1119.74,"endTime":1122.52,"body":"You know, what's your partner's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1119.74,"endTime":1122.52,"body":"name? 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Or the delivery"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1141.32,"endTime":1145.28,"body":"lead, or whoever's leading that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1141.32,"endTime":1145.28,"body":"team. And it's yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1145.28,"endTime":1150.2,"body":"hard, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1145.28,"endTime":1150.2,"body":"You made me think of someone"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1150.2,"endTime":1154.16,"body":"that I know, and they have this"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1150.2,"endTime":1154.16,"body":"meeting, this team meeting, that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1154.16,"endTime":1159.8,"body":"I have on a Monday morning. And"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1154.16,"endTime":1159.8,"body":"it's the pretense of something"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1159.8,"endTime":1163.42,"body":"that looks like a daily scrum,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1159.8,"endTime":1163.42,"body":"but effectively, it's the what"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1163.42,"endTime":1166.06,"body":"did you do at the weekend"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1163.42,"endTime":1166.06,"body":"meeting? And it's like for team"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1166.06,"endTime":1169.9,"body":"bonding and team collaboration,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1166.06,"endTime":1169.9,"body":"and it goes on for like half an"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1169.9,"endTime":1175.0,"body":"hour on a Monday morning. And"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1169.9,"endTime":1175.0,"body":"even though, on the surface it"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1175.0,"endTime":1177.94,"body":"looks like, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1175.0,"endTime":1177.94,"body":"creating great team morale and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1177.94,"endTime":1183.66,"body":"team working person I'm talking"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1177.94,"endTime":1183.66,"body":"to, they dread it. It's like, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1183.72,"endTime":1186.9,"body":"just want to get on with my"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1183.72,"endTime":1186.9,"body":"work. I don't want to, yeah, at"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1190.5,"body":"the weekend, I just, I just sat"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1190.5,"body":"and watched TV the whole"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1190.5,"endTime":1194.64,"body":"weekend, because I just felt and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1190.5,"endTime":1194.64,"body":"then I'm gonna be judged. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1195.24,"endTime":1198.96,"body":"Joel, I went off and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1195.24,"endTime":1198.96,"body":"did a triathlon. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1199.38,"endTime":1204.5,"body":"pickled. 400 herrings, and yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1199.38,"endTime":1204.5,"body":"and you always feel like you're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1204.5,"endTime":1207.5,"body":"being judged. And it's funny,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1204.5,"endTime":1207.5,"body":"because in some environments,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1207.5,"endTime":1210.44,"body":"you'd think that was a really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1207.5,"endTime":1210.44,"body":"great thing, and it's, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1210.44,"endTime":1213.8,"body":"it's like that the jokey"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1210.44,"endTime":1213.8,"body":"culture. You know, when you take"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1213.8,"endTime":1215.96,"body":"it apart, there's always"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1213.8,"endTime":1215.96,"body":"somebody that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1215.96,"endTime":1218.66,"body":"particularly like it. And, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1215.96,"endTime":1218.66,"body":"that's the reason why@scrum.org"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1219.44,"endTime":1223.6,"body":"we try to follow the golden"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1219.44,"endTime":1223.6,"body":"rule, that actually the platinum"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1223.6,"endTime":1227.02,"body":"rule, not the golden rule. We do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1223.6,"endTime":1227.02,"body":"unto others as they want to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1227.02,"endTime":1231.94,"body":"done onto, not how we want to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1227.02,"endTime":1231.94,"body":"done onto. So we, we try to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1231.94,"endTime":1235.3,"body":"empathic. We try to, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1231.94,"endTime":1235.3,"body":"whether we always succeed,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1235.3,"endTime":1237.88,"body":"David, because I can be a bit of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1235.3,"endTime":1237.88,"body":"a bundle Bush, you know. I tend"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1237.88,"endTime":1241.02,"body":"to, oh, what about this? And,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1237.88,"endTime":1241.02,"body":"oh, let's get and I get overly"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1241.02,"endTime":1245.88,"body":"excited, you know. So I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1241.02,"endTime":1245.88,"body":"that the, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1245.88,"endTime":1248.7,"body":"there's an opportunity. The"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1245.88,"endTime":1248.7,"body":"other thing that you said, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1248.7,"endTime":1256.14,"body":"I'd sort of want to bring it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1248.7,"endTime":1256.14,"body":"back, it takes time, and I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1256.14,"endTime":1260.12,"body":"that's something that we don't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1256.14,"endTime":1260.12,"body":"kind of understand. Humans are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1260.12,"endTime":1265.34,"body":"actually quite slow to change,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1260.12,"endTime":1265.34,"body":"unless there's some sort of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1265.34,"endTime":1269.42,"body":"major crisis, you know, like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1265.34,"endTime":1269.42,"body":"there's a fire or something. But"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1269.42,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"in general, behaviors,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1269.42,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"particularly these ingrained,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1275.66,"endTime":1280.64,"body":"often culturally and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1275.66,"endTime":1280.64,"body":"behaviorally, you know, defined,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1280.64,"endTime":1283.12,"body":"you know, these behaviors that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1280.64,"endTime":1283.12,"body":"are defined by the culture they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1283.12,"endTime":1285.46,"body":"come from that or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1283.12,"endTime":1285.46,"body":"some of the experience of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1285.46,"endTime":1288.94,"body":"human being that they take time"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1285.46,"endTime":1288.94,"body":"to change, right?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1289.54,"endTime":1291.82,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1289.54,"endTime":1291.82,"body":"it's even bigger than that,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1291.82,"endTime":1294.4,"body":"because it's not just the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1291.82,"endTime":1294.4,"body":"psychology of an individual,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1294.82,"endTime":1299.56,"body":"it's the sociology of a group,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1294.82,"endTime":1299.56,"body":"right? Is that? Is that, is that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1299.56,"endTime":1304.08,"body":"group? So, again, we talk about,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1299.56,"endTime":1304.08,"body":"you know, Scrum Master as a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1304.08,"endTime":1307.38,"body":"coach, Agile coach, but that's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1304.08,"endTime":1307.38,"body":"just, that's not just coaching"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1307.86,"endTime":1312.24,"body":"people, individually, one to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1307.86,"endTime":1312.24,"body":"one, one on one, it's we, you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1312.24,"endTime":1314.7,"body":"can then scale it up to the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1312.24,"endTime":1314.7,"body":"team, and then the organization"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1314.7,"endTime":1317.1,"body":"as a whole. 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It's how you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1339.56,"endTime":1344.98,"body":"look at the reward system does."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1339.56,"endTime":1344.98,"body":"You can't do it overnight, with"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1345.04,"endTime":1348.58,"body":"a with a with a with a cultural"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1345.04,"endTime":1348.58,"body":"workshop, or putting up some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1348.58,"endTime":1352.66,"body":"posters on the wall night. It's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1348.58,"endTime":1352.66,"body":"something that has to sort of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1352.72,"endTime":1357.16,"body":"become ingrained into the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1352.72,"endTime":1357.16,"body":"organization. And the more the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1357.16,"endTime":1361.98,"body":"environment is, a is a difficult"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1357.16,"endTime":1361.98,"body":"one. The more toxic is, the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1361.98,"endTime":1366.54,"body":"harder it is, because trust has"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1361.98,"endTime":1366.54,"body":"been broken, because people are"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1366.54,"endTime":1369.3,"body":"reluctant. They've been burnt in"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1366.54,"endTime":1369.3,"body":"the past. Why would I? Why would"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1369.3,"endTime":1373.2,"body":"I speak out again? I just want"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1369.3,"endTime":1373.2,"body":"to keep my head down and, you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1373.2,"endTime":1376.08,"body":"know, get, get through the day,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1376.2,"endTime":1381.38,"body":"through the day."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1376.2,"endTime":1381.38,"body":"Yeah, I'm here to work, not for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1381.38,"endTime":1385.88,"body":"anything else that kind of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1381.38,"endTime":1385.88,"body":"situation. So, right? So as we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1385.88,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"come to end of this podcast, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1385.88,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"you know, we try to keep these"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1391.34,"body":"relatively short, and we could"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1391.34,"body":"talk for days about this, I've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1391.34,"endTime":1396.2,"body":"got a filing cabinet of examples"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1391.34,"endTime":1396.2,"body":"of when I've done completely the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1396.2,"endTime":1400.6,"body":"wrong thing and created the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1396.2,"endTime":1400.6,"body":"opposite of what I was trying to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1400.6,"endTime":1405.1,"body":"achieve. I have to say, I, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1400.6,"endTime":1405.1,"body":"know, from after reading your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1405.1,"endTime":1407.68,"body":"blog, and you know having this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1405.1,"endTime":1407.68,"body":"conversation in previous"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1407.68,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"conversations, sometimes I do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1407.68,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"worry that it makes it look so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1414.16,"endTime":1418.6,"body":"hard. Being a scrum master or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1414.16,"endTime":1418.6,"body":"being any kind of manager or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1418.6,"endTime":1422.58,"body":"leader in an organization looks"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1418.6,"endTime":1422.58,"body":"because it's you're dealing with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1422.58,"endTime":1426.48,"body":"people, and people are complex,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1422.58,"endTime":1426.48,"body":"and you know that they how they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1430.26,"body":"show up and what they bring to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1430.26,"body":"the table, and is influenced by"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1430.26,"endTime":1434.4,"body":"all sorts of a million variables"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1430.26,"endTime":1434.4,"body":"that you have no visibility. Or,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1434.52,"endTime":1437.94,"body":"dare I say that we use the word"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1434.52,"endTime":1437.94,"body":"transparency of and, and even if"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1437.94,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"you did, you wouldn't understand"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1437.94,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"them, because people behave odd,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"right? You know, so what if it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"looks so hard this stuff? What"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1450.02,"endTime":1454.16,"body":"would you tell somebody not, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1450.02,"endTime":1454.16,"body":"know? I mean, they're doing the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1454.16,"endTime":1458.18,"body":"job. How can what are the couple"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1454.16,"endTime":1458.18,"body":"of things they should take away"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1458.6,"endTime":1460.16,"body":"and start working with"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1462.2,"endTime":1464.8,"body":"again? I'm just"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1462.2,"endTime":1464.8,"body":"gonna, I'm gonna quote Ken"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1464.8,"endTime":1467.5,"body":"again, right? Think of it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1464.8,"endTime":1467.5,"body":"about the art of the possible,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1468.22,"endTime":1472.36,"body":"starting small. Take that time"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1468.22,"endTime":1472.36,"body":"to understand the context. If"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1472.36,"endTime":1475.36,"body":"you're new to a team and"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1472.36,"endTime":1475.36,"body":"organization. And this about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1475.36,"endTime":1477.76,"body":"picking the battles. You know,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1475.36,"endTime":1477.76,"body":"we've been talking about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1477.76,"endTime":1481.38,"body":"transparency. It doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1477.76,"endTime":1481.38,"body":"everything has to be made"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1481.38,"endTime":1483.96,"body":"transparent now, right? So it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1481.38,"endTime":1483.96,"body":"about waiting for the for the"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1483.96,"endTime":1487.38,"body":"right moment. And you kind of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1483.96,"endTime":1487.38,"body":"start to know when they come"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1487.38,"endTime":1490.5,"body":"along, there's an opportunity to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1487.38,"endTime":1490.5,"body":"protect or support that team"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1490.5,"endTime":1495.12,"body":"member, make it safe for that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1490.5,"endTime":1495.12,"body":"one person to speak honestly. So"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1495.12,"endTime":1499.02,"body":"building these little pockets of"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1495.12,"endTime":1499.02,"body":"safety, celebrating the right"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1499.02,"endTime":1502.1,"body":"you know when people are. Area,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1499.02,"endTime":1502.1,"body":"celebrating the right behaviors,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1502.46,"endTime":1505.22,"body":"you know, asking questions"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1502.46,"endTime":1505.22,"body":"instead of, like, demanding"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1505.22,"endTime":1510.38,"body":"answers all the time. And I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1505.22,"endTime":1510.38,"body":"think as well, it's finding"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1510.38,"endTime":1512.72,"body":"those supporters and building"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1510.38,"endTime":1512.72,"body":"those alliances. I'm sure that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1512.72,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"investment bank that we talked"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1512.72,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"about right even though there's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1515.18,"endTime":1519.8,"body":"people sort of going along with"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1515.18,"endTime":1519.8,"body":"a culture inside, they might"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1519.8,"endTime":1523.78,"body":"feel this isn't right for me."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1519.8,"endTime":1523.78,"body":"This isn't how I want things to"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1523.78,"endTime":1530.02,"body":"be. So it's finding those little"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1523.78,"endTime":1530.02,"body":"alliances and help guiding"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1530.02,"endTime":1533.98,"body":"people and building up those"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1530.02,"endTime":1533.98,"body":"sort of coalitions. And you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1533.98,"endTime":1536.2,"body":"know, Jason little talks about"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1533.98,"endTime":1536.2,"body":"this in his lean change"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1536.2,"endTime":1539.14,"body":"management stuff like, if you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1536.2,"endTime":1539.14,"body":"get to a certain threshold,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1540.28,"endTime":1546.42,"body":"things start, you start to build"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1540.28,"endTime":1546.42,"body":"momentum. So, yeah, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1546.42,"endTime":1548.76,"body":"a, you know, we talk about this"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1546.42,"endTime":1548.76,"body":"in liberating structures, right?"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1548.82,"endTime":1551.58,"body":"The 15% solution, right? What's,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1548.82,"endTime":1551.58,"body":"what's the first steps we can"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1557.16,"body":"take? And, yeah, like, I say,"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1557.16,"body":"being that model of good"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1557.16,"endTime":1560.24,"body":"transparency, right? Being open"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1557.16,"endTime":1560.24,"body":"about your answers. He's being"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1560.24,"endTime":1566.42,"body":"open when you don't know"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1560.24,"endTime":1566.42,"body":"something, and yeah, last thing"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1566.42,"endTime":1570.14,"body":"I would say is recognizing as a"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1566.42,"endTime":1570.14,"body":"Scrum Master, you're not alone."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1570.14,"endTime":1572.72,"body":"There's so many people that I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1570.14,"endTime":1572.72,"body":"see on my training courses that"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1572.72,"endTime":1576.32,"body":"are in similar situations. What"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1572.72,"endTime":1576.32,"body":"do I do? What do I do that I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1576.32,"endTime":1580.76,"body":"can't change things. You're not"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1576.32,"endTime":1580.76,"body":"going mad. You're not alone. The"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1580.76,"endTime":1586.06,"body":"final thing I would say is keep"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1580.76,"endTime":1586.06,"body":"to your own values and keep your"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1586.06,"endTime":1587.44,"body":"humanity in the process."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1588.22,"endTime":1591.46,"body":"Yeah, I think that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1588.22,"endTime":1591.46,"body":"good, good words. And wrapping"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1591.46,"endTime":1596.56,"body":"all of that is Be mindful of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1591.46,"endTime":1596.56,"body":"culture that in the environment"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1596.56,"endTime":1602.1,"body":"and what Transparency means. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1596.56,"endTime":1602.1,"body":"one size does not fit all. And I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1602.1,"endTime":1607.08,"body":"think that you have to evolve a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1602.1,"endTime":1607.08,"body":"system and a solution that is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1607.08,"endTime":1610.14,"body":"exactly the art of the possible."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1607.08,"endTime":1610.14,"body":"I think is the phrase that you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1610.14,"endTime":1613.5,"body":"use, David, which is, which is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1610.14,"endTime":1613.5,"body":"really, which is really good."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1613.5,"endTime":1617.22,"body":"And I forgotten that, that I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1613.5,"endTime":1617.22,"body":"read that, you know what, 20"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1617.22,"endTime":1623.36,"body":"something years ago, and and I,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1617.22,"endTime":1623.36,"body":"every five years or so, I reuse"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1623.42,"endTime":1626.18,"body":"those that phrase the art of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1623.42,"endTime":1626.18,"body":"possible, because that's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1626.18,"endTime":1629.18,"body":"ultimately the heart of Scrum,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1626.18,"endTime":1629.18,"body":"whether it's about how your team"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1629.18,"endTime":1633.86,"body":"functions or the product that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1629.18,"endTime":1633.86,"body":"you're delivering. And amazing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1633.86,"endTime":1636.92,"body":"things are possible. Hey, thank"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1633.86,"endTime":1636.92,"body":"you for taking the time today,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1636.98,"endTime":1643.42,"body":"David, I really, really do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1636.98,"endTime":1643.42,"body":"appreciate it. I always, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1643.42,"endTime":1647.8,"body":"always feel a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1643.42,"endTime":1647.8,"body":"wiser after spending some time"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1647.8,"endTime":1651.94,"body":"with you. Lot to learn from you,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1647.8,"endTime":1651.94,"body":"that's for sure. So thank you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1651.94,"endTime":1654.82,"body":"for taking the time and talking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1651.94,"endTime":1654.82,"body":"about a little bit of a tricky"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1654.82,"endTime":1655.54,"body":"topic."},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1656.26,"endTime":1657.94,"body":"Yeah, thank you"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1656.26,"endTime":1657.94,"body":"for having me. Yeah, it's not"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1657.94,"endTime":1661.38,"body":"easy, but yeah, hopefully some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1657.94,"endTime":1661.38,"body":"people have taken some"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1661.38,"endTime":1665.46,"body":"inspiration, and I wish you luck"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1661.38,"endTime":1665.46,"body":"with the dog as well. I know, I"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1665.46,"endTime":1666.9,"body":"know how you feel. Mine's"},{"speaker":"David Spinks","startTime":1665.46,"endTime":1666.9,"body":"similar."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1667.92,"endTime":1671.28,"body":"Yeah, I have lost"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1667.92,"endTime":1671.28,"body":"that battle. He is incredibly"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1671.28,"endTime":1675.54,"body":"cute and gets away with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1671.28,"endTime":1675.54,"body":"anything. And you know, in our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1675.54,"endTime":1679.44,"body":"house, we only have one product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1675.54,"endTime":1679.44,"body":"owner. It is not me. Turns out,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1679.44,"endTime":1682.82,"body":"I'm not even an Inspire, not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1679.44,"endTime":1682.82,"body":"even a stakeholder, often in our"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1682.82,"endTime":1687.86,"body":"scrum team, but I am a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1682.82,"endTime":1687.86,"body":"developer, that's for sure. So"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1687.86,"endTime":1691.34,"body":"thank you David, and thank you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1687.86,"endTime":1691.34,"body":"for listening to today's scrum"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1691.34,"endTime":1697.82,"body":"dot augmenting podcast. I was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1691.34,"endTime":1697.82,"body":"joined today by David Spinks PST"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1697.82,"endTime":1701.92,"body":"extraordinaire, talking about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1697.82,"endTime":1701.92,"body":"that very tricky topic of of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1701.92,"endTime":1707.26,"body":"transparency toxic cultures, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1701.92,"endTime":1707.26,"body":"how far can you go as a Scrum"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1707.26,"endTime":1710.56,"body":"Master? How far should you go?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1707.26,"endTime":1710.56,"body":"Should you resign when people"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1710.56,"endTime":1715.0,"body":"won't do it exactly the way that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1710.56,"endTime":1715.0,"body":"you have written about? And I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1715.0,"endTime":1718.36,"body":"think the answer is that's just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1715.0,"endTime":1718.36,"body":"giving up, obviously, stay true"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1718.36,"endTime":1723.0,"body":"to your values. But I think"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1718.36,"endTime":1723.0,"body":"there's always a way the art of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1723.0,"endTime":1727.14,"body":"the possible, as Ken Schwaber"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1723.0,"endTime":1727.14,"body":"would say, if you liked what you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1727.14,"endTime":1729.78,"body":"heard today, please subscribe,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1727.14,"endTime":1729.78,"body":"share with friends, and of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1729.78,"endTime":1732.48,"body":"course, come back and listen"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1729.78,"endTime":1732.48,"body":"some more. I'm lucky enough to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1732.48,"endTime":1735.3,"body":"have a variety of guests talking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1732.48,"endTime":1735.3,"body":"about everything in the area of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1735.3,"endTime":1737.82,"body":"professional Scrum, product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1735.3,"endTime":1737.82,"body":"thinking, and, of course, agile."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1738.0,"endTime":1739.56,"body":"Thank you everybody, and Scrum"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1738.0,"endTime":1739.56,"body":"on you."}]}