{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.96,"body":"Announcer,"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.96,"body":"welcome to the scrum.org"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.32,"endTime":8.52,"body":"community podcast, a podcast"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":4.32,"endTime":8.52,"body":"from the home of Scrum. In this"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":8.52,"endTime":11.64,"body":"podcast, we feature professional"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":8.52,"endTime":11.64,"body":"scrum trainers and other scrum"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"practitioners sharing their"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":11.64,"endTime":15.06,"body":"stories and experiences to help"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"learn from the experience of"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":15.06,"endTime":18.66,"body":"others. We hope you enjoy this"},{"speaker":"Lindsay Velecina","startTime":18.66,"endTime":19.2,"body":"episode."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.46,"endTime":24.02,"body":"Hello and welcome to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":20.46,"endTime":24.02,"body":"the scrum.org community podcast."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":24.44,"endTime":28.52,"body":"I'm your host. Dave West, CEO,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":24.44,"endTime":28.52,"body":"here@scrum.org in today's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":28.52,"endTime":31.7,"body":"podcast, we're discussing an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":28.52,"endTime":31.7,"body":"element of the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":31.76,"endTime":36.44,"body":"operating model that's often"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":31.76,"endTime":36.44,"body":"ignored, and that's the area of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.44,"endTime":39.98,"body":"procurement. You know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":36.44,"endTime":39.98,"body":"contracts, legal, all those"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":39.98,"endTime":44.08,"body":"things. Oh, sounds awful. You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":39.98,"endTime":44.08,"body":"know, it might sound strange"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":44.08,"endTime":48.28,"body":"that in a product approach, that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":44.08,"endTime":48.28,"body":"we actually worry about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":48.28,"endTime":52.6,"body":"procurement, but actually, if"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":48.28,"endTime":52.6,"body":"you don't, these third party"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":52.6,"endTime":56.92,"body":"relationships can ultimately"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":52.6,"endTime":56.92,"body":"undermine your move to product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":57.1,"endTime":61.08,"body":"and to agility. In particular,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":57.1,"endTime":61.08,"body":"imagine building a car for a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":61.08,"endTime":64.62,"body":"second most complex, mass"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":61.08,"endTime":64.62,"body":"produced product in the world,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":64.62,"endTime":69.18,"body":"1000s of different suppliers,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":64.62,"endTime":69.18,"body":"complex OEMs and hierarchies of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":69.18,"endTime":73.5,"body":"supply. Imagine trying to build"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":69.18,"endTime":73.5,"body":"a car using an agile approach."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":74.28,"endTime":77.52,"body":"Ultimately, if do not include"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":74.28,"endTime":77.52,"body":"procurement in that process,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":77.52,"endTime":80.9,"body":"you're going to never get to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":77.52,"endTime":80.9,"body":"Agile. You're probably going to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.9,"endTime":83.42,"body":"never manage to change anything,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":80.9,"endTime":83.42,"body":"and it's going to be a complete"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":83.42,"endTime":86.12,"body":"mess. And you'll you'll get"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":83.42,"endTime":86.12,"body":"fired. Of course, most"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":86.12,"endTime":89.36,"body":"organizations, you're not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":86.12,"endTime":89.36,"body":"building something as complex as"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":89.36,"endTime":92.72,"body":"a car. You know, there's the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":89.36,"endTime":92.72,"body":"supplier ecosystem is much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":92.72,"endTime":97.28,"body":"simpler. But let's look at the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":92.72,"endTime":97.28,"body":"scrum.org website for a moment."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":97.28,"endTime":100.04,"body":"When we moved to the new"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":97.28,"endTime":100.04,"body":"platform, we moved to Drupal,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":100.04,"endTime":104.2,"body":"we, you know, changed how we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":100.04,"endTime":104.2,"body":"worked on the on the website. We"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":104.2,"endTime":107.38,"body":"worked with suppliers around the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":104.2,"endTime":107.38,"body":"development. We had to increase"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":107.44,"endTime":111.82,"body":"our development capacity to do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":107.44,"endTime":111.82,"body":"it. We have a CRM vendor. We use"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":111.82,"endTime":115.12,"body":"Salesforce, marketing cloud and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":111.82,"endTime":115.12,"body":"all that. We also, of course,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":115.12,"endTime":119.74,"body":"have Amazon and stuff like that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":115.12,"endTime":119.74,"body":"for the for the hosting and and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":119.74,"endTime":121.98,"body":"actually, we have a number of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":119.74,"endTime":121.98,"body":"third parties around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":121.98,"endTime":126.12,"body":"assessments, etc. Now we wanted"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":121.98,"endTime":126.12,"body":"to move to that in a very agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":126.12,"endTime":130.14,"body":"way, you know, incrementally"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":126.12,"endTime":130.14,"body":"move our website. It was really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":130.14,"endTime":133.68,"body":"hard to work with these third"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":130.14,"endTime":133.68,"body":"parties. They were like, No, we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":133.68,"endTime":136.74,"body":"need to know exactly what you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":133.68,"endTime":136.74,"body":"want at the start. So so it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":136.74,"endTime":140.04,"body":"wasn't easy. So I'm not sure we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":136.74,"endTime":140.04,"body":"did a particularly good job,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":140.04,"endTime":143.12,"body":"actually, to be honest, we had"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":140.04,"endTime":143.12,"body":"some big challenges along the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":143.12,"endTime":149.9,"body":"way. So because of that, we are"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":143.12,"endTime":149.9,"body":"fortunate today to have two"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":149.96,"endTime":153.56,"body":"experts in the discipline or in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":149.96,"endTime":153.56,"body":"the field of Lean agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":153.56,"endTime":158.72,"body":"procurement, and that is Mirko"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":153.56,"endTime":158.72,"body":"Kleiner, president of the lean"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":158.72,"endTime":163.24,"body":"agile procurement Alliance, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":158.72,"endTime":163.24,"body":"author of probably the pivotal"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":163.36,"endTime":166.6,"body":"book in this space, which is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":163.36,"endTime":166.6,"body":"lean agile procurement. If"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":166.6,"endTime":171.22,"body":"you've not read it, I suggest"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":166.6,"endTime":171.22,"body":"you do. And Simon Randell, a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":171.28,"endTime":175.36,"body":"professional scrum trainer on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":171.28,"endTime":175.36,"body":"this podcast before author,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":175.36,"endTime":180.28,"body":"consultant, coach, is also a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":175.36,"endTime":180.28,"body":"lean agile procurement trainer"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":180.64,"endTime":185.28,"body":"and board member, welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":180.64,"endTime":185.28,"body":"podcast. Mirko and Simon,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":185.94,"endTime":189.42,"body":"thanks for having"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":185.94,"endTime":189.42,"body":"us. Thank you. Dave pleasure to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":189.42,"endTime":189.78,"body":"be here."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":190.2,"endTime":193.2,"body":"Yeah, it's great to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":190.2,"endTime":193.2,"body":"have you. I know that it's all a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":193.2,"endTime":196.98,"body":"bit of a complicated,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":193.2,"endTime":196.98,"body":"interrelated, you know, cross"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":196.98,"endTime":201.08,"body":"disciplinary field here, so I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":196.98,"endTime":201.08,"body":"guess that our listeners would"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":201.08,"endTime":204.02,"body":"want to start at the very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":201.08,"endTime":204.02,"body":"beginning, to sort of set the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":204.02,"endTime":208.34,"body":"scene. And maybe we start with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":204.02,"endTime":208.34,"body":"you Marco, talk a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":208.34,"endTime":212.18,"body":"about the state of agile and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":208.34,"endTime":212.18,"body":"procurement. They seem like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":212.18,"endTime":214.7,"body":"they're not the happiest of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":212.18,"endTime":214.7,"body":"bedfellows."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":216.08,"endTime":219.68,"body":"Well, actually,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":216.08,"endTime":219.68,"body":"yeah, it said sad but true, the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":219.68,"endTime":224.2,"body":"demand for agility or more"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":219.68,"endTime":224.2,"body":"agility in procurement has never"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":224.2,"endTime":228.76,"body":"been bigger than today. But one"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":224.2,"endTime":228.76,"body":"of the reasons we are here, we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":228.76,"endTime":232.36,"body":"want to spread the word there is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":228.76,"endTime":232.36,"body":"an answer, you know, to become"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":232.36,"endTime":236.26,"body":"more agile, more adaptive, even"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":232.36,"endTime":236.26,"body":"in procurement and other"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":236.26,"endTime":242.16,"body":"commercial roles. I think so. We"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":236.26,"endTime":242.16,"body":"are still at the very beginning"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":242.16,"endTime":248.28,"body":"of the innovation bell curve. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":242.16,"endTime":248.28,"body":"to say, our movement, little"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":248.28,"endTime":252.12,"body":"movement, is already nine years"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":248.28,"endTime":252.12,"body":"old, and we have done fantastic"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":252.18,"endTime":255.6,"body":"we have fantastic success"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":252.18,"endTime":255.6,"body":"stories in almost all"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":255.6,"endTime":260.4,"body":"industries, public private"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":255.6,"endTime":260.4,"body":"sector, very regulated, far"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":260.4,"endTime":267.98,"body":"more. For example, industry,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":260.4,"endTime":267.98,"body":"banking, sourcing far beyond"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":267.98,"endTime":272.72,"body":"software and you know, services"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":267.98,"endTime":272.72,"body":"what we are used to in the Agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":272.72,"endTime":277.16,"body":"community, for example, sourcing"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":272.72,"endTime":277.16,"body":"new trains for the government."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":277.22,"endTime":284.74,"body":"Or now in nowadays, defense is a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":277.22,"endTime":284.74,"body":"huge topic, right? The challenge"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":284.74,"endTime":289.96,"body":"that procurement is facing is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":284.74,"endTime":289.96,"body":"similar to where the agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":289.96,"endTime":296.32,"body":"movement has been 20 years ago."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":289.96,"endTime":296.32,"body":"So to say, because back then,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":296.32,"endTime":303.54,"body":"you know, software came up or"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":296.32,"endTime":303.54,"body":"was. More and more a thing. And"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":304.26,"endTime":310.08,"body":"everybody was like treating the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":304.26,"endTime":310.08,"body":"software process, software"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":310.08,"endTime":314.82,"body":"development process in a sense"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":310.08,"endTime":314.82,"body":"that we know exactly what we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":314.82,"endTime":319.62,"body":"want today. We know we don't"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":314.82,"endTime":319.62,"body":"know. We have to see it right."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":319.62,"endTime":324.32,"body":"It's assumptions. It's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":319.62,"endTime":324.32,"body":"hypothesis. Now, procurement, to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":324.44,"endTime":330.38,"body":"oversimplify, works the same way"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":324.44,"endTime":330.38,"body":"till today, their main"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":330.38,"endTime":334.16,"body":"assumption is that they can"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":330.38,"endTime":334.16,"body":"specify what they're going to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":334.16,"endTime":340.04,"body":"buy, and that's already part of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":334.16,"endTime":340.04,"body":"the big strategy. You know, if"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":340.04,"endTime":343.18,"body":"you're just looking for toilet"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":340.04,"endTime":343.18,"body":"paper for your company, that's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":343.18,"endTime":347.08,"body":"still fine. But if you're"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":343.18,"endTime":347.08,"body":"looking for the next CRM for"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":347.08,"endTime":352.3,"body":"scrum.org, or or any other"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":347.08,"endTime":352.3,"body":"service where you have an"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":352.3,"endTime":355.84,"body":"opinion, but you don't know what"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":352.3,"endTime":355.84,"body":"are the possibilities,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":355.84,"endTime":359.86,"body":"especially in our days with AI"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":355.84,"endTime":359.86,"body":"and all this, you know, fast"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":359.86,"endTime":366.42,"body":"evolving products and services"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":359.86,"endTime":366.42,"body":"you might need to have. You"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":366.42,"endTime":370.14,"body":"might look for a different"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":366.42,"endTime":370.14,"body":"approach, a more collaborative"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":370.14,"endTime":376.98,"body":"approach, similar what we are"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":370.14,"endTime":376.98,"body":"doing in Agile teams. The second"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":376.98,"endTime":381.92,"body":"and we might deep dive into that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":376.98,"endTime":381.92,"body":"in the later in the podcast is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":382.22,"endTime":389.18,"body":"the assumption that somebody"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":382.22,"endTime":389.18,"body":"buys for us. It's, let's, let's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":389.18,"endTime":392.48,"body":"stay with the analogy of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":389.18,"endTime":392.48,"body":"software development. 20 years"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":392.48,"endTime":397.1,"body":"ago, there was a quality"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":392.48,"endTime":397.1,"body":"assurance department who ensured"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":397.1,"endTime":402.58,"body":"quality for our software"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":397.1,"endTime":402.58,"body":"developers, right? And it's as"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":402.58,"endTime":407.56,"body":"wrong as that somebody else is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":402.58,"endTime":407.56,"body":"buying for us, if you think"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":407.56,"endTime":414.16,"body":"about it. So if you think DevOps"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":407.56,"endTime":414.16,"body":"as a concept, or your a palm"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":414.16,"endTime":419.74,"body":"model, fast forward, I think"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":414.16,"endTime":419.74,"body":"there is the ambition that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":419.74,"endTime":423.54,"body":"future agile teams, or product"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":419.74,"endTime":423.54,"body":"teams, whatever you want to call"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":423.54,"endTime":427.62,"body":"them, micro enterprises, that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":423.54,"endTime":427.62,"body":"they are owning the whole"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":427.62,"endTime":431.82,"body":"product, including the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":427.62,"endTime":431.82,"body":"commercial side of the product,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":432.48,"endTime":442.98,"body":"managing, evaluating, managing,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":432.48,"endTime":442.98,"body":"laying off their third party. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":442.98,"endTime":444.56,"body":"Simon, did I miss something?"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":444.86,"endTime":447.8,"body":"Yeah, Simon, you want"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":444.86,"endTime":447.8,"body":"to add a little bit of from your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":447.8,"endTime":450.68,"body":"perspective, because you're out"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":447.8,"endTime":450.68,"body":"there in the field doing this,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":450.68,"endTime":453.5,"body":"trying to help these organs."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":450.68,"endTime":453.5,"body":"Well, you both are, but Simon,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":453.5,"endTime":456.74,"body":"you're sort of bringing in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":453.5,"endTime":456.74,"body":"professional Scrum and combining"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":456.74,"endTime":456.92,"body":"it,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":457.94,"endTime":462.16,"body":"yeah, what excited"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":457.94,"endTime":462.16,"body":"me when Mirko and I met at a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":462.16,"endTime":465.28,"body":"conference and is describing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":462.16,"endTime":465.28,"body":"whole procurement process the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":465.28,"endTime":470.98,"body":"number of times my teams or my"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":465.28,"endTime":470.98,"body":"clients had been stymied by a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":470.98,"endTime":475.72,"body":"classic predictive contract. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":470.98,"endTime":475.72,"body":"they're trying to work in an"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":475.72,"endTime":481.5,"body":"agile, iterative, incremental,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":475.72,"endTime":481.5,"body":"empirical way, and all of a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":481.5,"endTime":484.74,"body":"sudden the contract is written"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":481.5,"endTime":484.74,"body":"in the classic predictive model"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":484.74,"endTime":488.04,"body":"based on phase, gates,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":484.74,"endTime":488.04,"body":"milestones, all that cool stuff."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":488.28,"endTime":492.78,"body":"Now that's great. If we're in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":488.28,"endTime":492.78,"body":"the world of the clear or the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":492.78,"endTime":499.38,"body":"complicated you're working in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":492.78,"endTime":499.38,"body":"Scrum, we know that it's really"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":499.38,"endTime":504.32,"body":"important that we are clear that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":499.38,"endTime":504.32,"body":"we don't know exactly what we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":504.32,"endTime":507.2,"body":"doing all the way through the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":504.32,"endTime":507.2,"body":"life cycle of our product,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":507.38,"endTime":509.84,"body":"because we want to run"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":507.38,"endTime":509.84,"body":"experiments and learn and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":509.84,"endTime":514.28,"body":"evaluate and iterate. Well, how"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":509.84,"endTime":514.28,"body":"is my partner going to get paid"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":514.58,"endTime":518.42,"body":"if we don't have that milestone"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":514.58,"endTime":518.42,"body":"that all the requirements are"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":518.42,"endTime":521.44,"body":"signed off, and that's a payment"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":518.42,"endTime":521.44,"body":"milestone, and in large"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":521.44,"endTime":524.98,"body":"companies, we could be talking"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":521.44,"endTime":524.98,"body":"millions, 10s of millions of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":525.22,"endTime":530.08,"body":"dollars, pounds, francs, Euro."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":525.22,"endTime":530.08,"body":"And so you then end up with this"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":530.08,"endTime":534.88,"body":"commercial conflict. That's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":530.08,"endTime":534.88,"body":"first one. And the second one"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":534.88,"endTime":540.42,"body":"I've run into too many times,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":534.88,"endTime":540.42,"body":"procurement was focused purely"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":540.9,"endTime":545.52,"body":"on the lowest cost. And so when"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":540.9,"endTime":545.52,"body":"the bids were put out, people"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":545.52,"endTime":549.18,"body":"would bid, but they bury in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":545.52,"endTime":549.18,"body":"contract that a change request"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":549.18,"endTime":552.54,"body":"was worth a load of money, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":549.18,"endTime":552.54,"body":"so they'd sign off the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":552.54,"endTime":556.8,"body":"requirements, and then you'd get"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":552.54,"endTime":556.8,"body":"into this really quite toxic"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":556.8,"endTime":560.6,"body":"discussion. Is that a bug? No,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":556.8,"endTime":560.6,"body":"that's a change request, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.26,"body":"it's the only way that the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.26,"body":"supplier could recoup the actual"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":564.26,"endTime":567.44,"body":"cost of the development. And so"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":564.26,"endTime":567.44,"body":"what we're aiming to do is be"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":567.68,"endTime":572.42,"body":"open, clear, transparent, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":567.68,"endTime":572.42,"body":"build a trust based Win, win"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":572.42,"endTime":577.04,"body":"relationship, so that we won't"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":572.42,"endTime":577.04,"body":"have an us and them approach. We"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":577.1,"endTime":580.28,"body":"start building an ecosystem of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":577.1,"endTime":580.28,"body":"trusted suppliers. It is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":581.66,"endTime":586.24,"body":"interesting, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":581.66,"endTime":586.24,"body":"bring us one of the, one of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":586.24,"endTime":591.16,"body":"sort of case studies that I use"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":586.24,"endTime":591.16,"body":"a lot when talking about this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":591.16,"endTime":594.82,"body":"move to product thinking in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":591.16,"endTime":594.82,"body":"particular, is SpaceX versus"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":594.82,"endTime":598.78,"body":"Boeing with respect to manned"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":594.82,"endTime":598.78,"body":"spaceflight, one of the reasons"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":598.78,"endTime":603.48,"body":"why Boeing was in search. Such a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":598.78,"endTime":603.48,"body":"mess with, you know, obviously a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":603.48,"endTime":609.18,"body":"neighbor of ours got stuck"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":603.48,"endTime":609.18,"body":"there. She lives in Needham and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":609.78,"endTime":614.04,"body":"Sunita, who was one of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":609.78,"endTime":614.04,"body":"astronauts who got stuck in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":614.04,"endTime":617.58,"body":"space, because that one of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":614.04,"endTime":617.58,"body":"reasons why they got in such a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":617.58,"endTime":625.22,"body":"mess was because the the the the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":617.58,"endTime":625.22,"body":"the US government, NASA, changed"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":625.22,"endTime":630.98,"body":"their procurement process to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":625.22,"endTime":630.98,"body":"basically fixed price based on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":631.64,"endTime":635.3,"body":"delivery, you know, sort of like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":631.64,"endTime":635.3,"body":"we are going to pay. We believe"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":635.3,"endTime":640.66,"body":"the value is this of taking a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":635.3,"endTime":640.66,"body":"person from the ground, taking"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":640.66,"endTime":644.02,"body":"them to the International Space"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":640.66,"endTime":644.02,"body":"Station. Therefore, we'll break"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":644.02,"endTime":649.18,"body":"it into these 15 segments and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":644.02,"endTime":649.18,"body":"fixed price based on very clear"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":649.18,"endTime":653.14,"body":"goals and incentives. Now,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":649.18,"endTime":653.14,"body":"Boeing has never worked in that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":653.14,"endTime":657.04,"body":"way before. It's always been"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":653.14,"endTime":657.04,"body":"time materials and Boeing's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":657.04,"endTime":661.74,"body":"entire system wasn't built"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":657.04,"endTime":661.74,"body":"around that. It was built around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":662.46,"endTime":665.58,"body":"a completely different model."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":662.46,"endTime":665.58,"body":"And because of that, it was one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":665.58,"endTime":669.18,"body":"of the many reasons, but it sort"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":665.58,"endTime":669.18,"body":"of fell apart. And so the reason"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":669.18,"endTime":672.12,"body":"why, one of the reasons why"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":669.18,"endTime":672.12,"body":"procurement is so front and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":672.12,"endTime":676.86,"body":"center in in a palm, is one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":672.12,"endTime":676.86,"body":"because Simon does go on a bit,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":676.86,"endTime":679.44,"body":"and you have to sort of listen"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":676.86,"endTime":679.44,"body":"to him occasionally. But the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":679.44,"endTime":684.74,"body":"second reason is, honestly,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":679.44,"endTime":684.74,"body":"because this case study is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":684.74,"endTime":689.48,"body":"perfect example of a different"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":684.74,"endTime":689.48,"body":"philosophy and and the other"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":689.48,"endTime":692.06,"body":"thing that was interesting about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":689.48,"endTime":692.06,"body":"this was the way in which it was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":692.06,"endTime":695.96,"body":"goal oriented. It was about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":692.06,"endTime":695.96,"body":"outcomes, very clear outcomes"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":695.96,"endTime":700.48,"body":"that you need to have an engine"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":695.96,"endTime":700.48,"body":"that can do this stuff, because"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":700.48,"endTime":703.06,"body":"that's, you know, rocket"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":700.48,"endTime":703.06,"body":"surprisingly, rocket science"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":703.06,"endTime":705.88,"body":"isn't actually as complex as we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":703.06,"endTime":705.88,"body":"think it is. It's been around"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":705.88,"endTime":709.42,"body":"for a while, right? So they,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":705.88,"endTime":709.42,"body":"they, they broke it down on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":709.42,"endTime":711.82,"body":"that. So I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":709.42,"endTime":711.82,"body":"it's, it's clear that if we"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":711.82,"endTime":716.14,"body":"don't work in a different way"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":711.82,"endTime":716.14,"body":"with suppliers, and don't build"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":716.14,"endTime":720.48,"body":"contracts that allow Win win,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":716.14,"endTime":720.48,"body":"then you end up in a bit of, a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":720.6,"endTime":725.04,"body":"bit of a mess, but so, so let's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":720.6,"endTime":725.04,"body":"Simon talk, tell me a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":725.04,"endTime":727.32,"body":"about, you know, the Agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":725.04,"endTime":727.32,"body":"product, operating model and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":727.32,"endTime":731.34,"body":"products and and how that sort"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":727.32,"endTime":731.34,"body":"of fits in. Because I can see,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":732.36,"endTime":735.3,"body":"if you go into procurement and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":732.36,"endTime":735.3,"body":"say, we're going to change"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":735.3,"endTime":738.96,"body":"procurement, so you're coming in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":735.3,"endTime":738.96,"body":"from that angle, revolutionizing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":738.96,"endTime":742.16,"body":"procurement, getting wins a bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":738.96,"endTime":742.16,"body":"like 18 f did with the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":742.16,"endTime":746.12,"body":"government in the US and in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":742.16,"endTime":746.12,"body":"which has actually been got rid"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":746.12,"endTime":749.9,"body":"of now, but that's another"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":746.12,"endTime":749.9,"body":"thing. But I don't how does it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":749.9,"endTime":752.78,"body":"fit in with this agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":749.9,"endTime":752.78,"body":"operating model, which very much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":752.78,"endTime":756.5,"body":"comes from Business and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":752.78,"endTime":756.5,"body":"Technology, grouping"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":756.5,"endTime":761.14,"body":"capabilities around outcomes and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":756.5,"endTime":761.14,"body":"building teams and teams of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":761.14,"endTime":763.84,"body":"teams around products. How does"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":761.14,"endTime":763.84,"body":"it fit there?"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":765.94,"endTime":769.48,"body":"It's rather"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":765.94,"endTime":769.48,"body":"pivotal in the fact that it sets"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":769.54,"endTime":774.16,"body":"up the space for the teams to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":769.54,"endTime":774.16,"body":"connect and work together. You"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":774.16,"endTime":778.48,"body":"can even use the lap Canvas for"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":774.16,"endTime":778.48,"body":"teams to agree connection"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":778.48,"endTime":783.18,"body":"points. Now, the wonderful thing"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":778.48,"endTime":783.18,"body":"about Scrum is it's very"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":783.18,"endTime":787.2,"body":"articulate about a single team."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":783.18,"endTime":787.2,"body":"However, when you get to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":787.2,"endTime":791.46,"body":"multiple teams, portfolio,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":787.2,"endTime":791.46,"body":"enterprise, you're on your own."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":792.12,"endTime":795.96,"body":"And this is where the apom model"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":792.12,"endTime":795.96,"body":"is beautiful because it offers"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":796.2,"endTime":800.84,"body":"an organizational approach based"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":796.2,"endTime":800.84,"body":"on principles that each"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":800.84,"endTime":805.34,"body":"organization can customize to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":800.84,"endTime":805.34,"body":"suit their context, their people"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":805.7,"endTime":810.44,"body":"and their delivery. Now, as"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":805.7,"endTime":810.44,"body":"we've started saying, that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":810.44,"endTime":815.18,"body":"setting ourselves up with our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":810.44,"endTime":815.18,"body":"partners, our suppliers, that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":815.18,"endTime":820.78,"body":"procurement, and so if it's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":815.18,"endTime":820.78,"body":"straightforward materials, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":820.78,"endTime":824.44,"body":"procurement departments have"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":820.78,"endTime":824.44,"body":"mastered straightforward"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":824.44,"endTime":827.8,"body":"procurement, and you've got aI"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":824.44,"endTime":827.8,"body":"models to boost and help you. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":828.04,"endTime":833.02,"body":"if you're after staplers,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":828.04,"endTime":833.02,"body":"computers, you know, kit not a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":833.02,"endTime":836.86,"body":"problem. The procurement teams"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":833.02,"endTime":836.86,"body":"have solved that one. When we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":836.86,"endTime":840.24,"body":"entering the world of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":836.86,"endTime":840.24,"body":"complexity, we really need to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":840.24,"endTime":844.68,"body":"start applying Agile principles"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":840.24,"endTime":844.68,"body":"to our procurement approach. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":844.68,"endTime":848.82,"body":"we then bring in a procurement"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":844.68,"endTime":848.82,"body":"expert, a legal expert, a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":848.82,"endTime":853.62,"body":"governance expert, as well as"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":848.82,"endTime":853.62,"body":"our product team, because our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":853.62,"endTime":857.58,"body":"product manager and our delivery"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":853.62,"endTime":857.58,"body":"teams need to have an"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":857.58,"endTime":862.28,"body":"understanding about costs, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":857.58,"endTime":862.28,"body":"impact on the financial"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":862.28,"endTime":866.48,"body":"outcomes, as well as"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":862.28,"endTime":866.48,"body":"establishing a relationship with"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":866.48,"endTime":870.74,"body":"our partners from the outset"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":866.48,"endTime":870.74,"body":"that things are going to change."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":871.52,"endTime":876.08,"body":"And there's a fascinating"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":871.52,"endTime":876.08,"body":"observation in this this year's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":876.08,"endTime":880.9,"body":"State of Agile and Lean agile"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":876.08,"endTime":880.9,"body":"procurement, 40% of all"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":880.9,"endTime":885.94,"body":"contracts from the respondents"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":880.9,"endTime":885.94,"body":"were not reviewed after being"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":885.94,"endTime":891.58,"body":"signed. So if we're working in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":885.94,"endTime":891.58,"body":"an agile way, surely we should"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":891.58,"endTime":894.82,"body":"be adjusting and tweaking our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":891.58,"endTime":894.82,"body":"cons contract, checking that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":894.82,"endTime":898.06,"body":"they're the right deliverables,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":894.82,"endTime":898.06,"body":"and working out how to sustain"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":898.06,"endTime":900.78,"body":"that Win Win partnership with"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":898.06,"endTime":900.78,"body":"our long term. Suppliers,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":901.26,"endTime":907.8,"body":"because you talking of Boeing"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":901.26,"endTime":907.8,"body":"McDonnell Douglas went out of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":907.8,"endTime":910.38,"body":"business because they were"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":907.8,"endTime":910.38,"body":"getting hit from all sides and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":910.44,"endTime":915.6,"body":"and one of the most successful"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":910.44,"endTime":915.6,"body":"the Forge fourth generation"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":915.6,"endTime":918.6,"body":"fighters, if not the most"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":915.6,"endTime":918.6,"body":"successful fourth generation"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":918.6,"endTime":922.1,"body":"fighter, was a McDonnell Douglas"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":918.6,"endTime":922.1,"body":"fighter, and that's the F 18"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":922.1,"endTime":926.66,"body":"Hornet, which went through A, B,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":922.1,"endTime":926.66,"body":"C, D, E, F, Super Hornet models."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":927.62,"endTime":931.52,"body":"It's 40 plus years old now, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":927.62,"endTime":931.52,"body":"Boeing have had to pick up"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":931.52,"endTime":936.02,"body":"support for it. So thinking"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":931.52,"endTime":936.02,"body":"about the longevity of our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":936.02,"endTime":939.2,"body":"product as good product owners"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":936.02,"endTime":939.2,"body":"need to do we need to think"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":939.2,"endTime":942.7,"body":"about not only bringing it to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":939.2,"endTime":942.7,"body":"market, but supporting it while"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":942.7,"endTime":946.48,"body":"it's in market. And that's what"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":942.7,"endTime":946.48,"body":"we're trying to do in that true"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":946.72,"endTime":951.7,"body":"agile way, bringing a cross"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":946.72,"endTime":951.7,"body":"functional team together to help"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":951.7,"endTime":954.88,"body":"support the product delivery and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":951.7,"endTime":954.88,"body":"operation."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":956.26,"endTime":958.9,"body":"And I think what's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":956.26,"endTime":958.9,"body":"interesting so, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":958.9,"endTime":962.1,"body":"been obviously that, hopefully"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":958.9,"endTime":962.1,"body":"there's gonna be a white paper"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":962.1,"endTime":965.4,"body":"out soon. Listeners, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":962.1,"endTime":965.4,"body":"we're working on it, but I so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":965.4,"endTime":968.88,"body":"I've been reading the materials"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":965.4,"endTime":968.88,"body":"and sort of talking to you about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":968.88,"endTime":972.24,"body":"this, Simon. So one of the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":968.88,"endTime":972.24,"body":"interesting things is a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":972.24,"endTime":976.08,"body":"organizations to avoid getting"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":972.24,"endTime":976.08,"body":"into those dependencies and to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":976.08,"endTime":980.36,"body":"avoid working with procurement,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":976.08,"endTime":980.36,"body":"build their build stuff. So a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":980.36,"endTime":983.54,"body":"large financial institution that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":980.36,"endTime":983.54,"body":"we're not going to mention their"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":983.54,"endTime":986.84,"body":"name in the Boston area did"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":983.54,"endTime":986.84,"body":"exactly that, you know, oh,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":986.84,"endTime":991.4,"body":"rather than use the CRM, we'll"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":986.84,"endTime":991.4,"body":"build our own. Rather than, back"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":991.4,"endTime":993.98,"body":"in the day, rather than have a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":991.4,"endTime":993.98,"body":"database management system,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":993.98,"endTime":998.6,"body":"we'll build our own. You know"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":993.98,"endTime":998.6,"body":"that the do that because working"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":998.6,"endTime":1002.76,"body":"with third parties was so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":998.6,"endTime":1002.76,"body":"difficult in respect to working"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1002.76,"endTime":1005.52,"body":"in a more agile way. If you've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1002.76,"endTime":1005.52,"body":"got the control and you're doing"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1005.52,"endTime":1008.52,"body":"everything yourself, then it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1005.52,"endTime":1008.52,"body":"easy peasy, right? But one of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1008.52,"endTime":1012.9,"body":"the key tenants of a palm is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1008.52,"endTime":1012.9,"body":"core versus context. Don't build"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1012.9,"endTime":1016.92,"body":"stuff that you you there isn't a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1012.9,"endTime":1016.92,"body":"competitor that isn't a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1016.92,"endTime":1020.18,"body":"differentiator, which isn't"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1016.92,"endTime":1020.18,"body":"going to help you, because it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1020.18,"endTime":1023.42,"body":"everything you build, maintain"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1020.18,"endTime":1023.42,"body":"cost. I mean, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1023.42,"endTime":1027.5,"body":"expensive, you know, last"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1023.42,"endTime":1027.5,"body":"resort, almost concentrate on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1027.5,"endTime":1032.72,"body":"your core. And one thing that so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1027.5,"endTime":1032.72,"body":"that makes procurement so much"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1032.72,"endTime":1037.16,"body":"more important to be integrated"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1032.72,"endTime":1037.16,"body":"into the into the into the this"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1037.16,"endTime":1041.74,"body":"the a POM model. But tell me,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1037.16,"endTime":1041.74,"body":"how how do we do you? So you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1041.74,"endTime":1045.22,"body":"bring in these experts, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1041.74,"endTime":1045.22,"body":"know? Because, let's be frank,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1045.58,"endTime":1049.72,"body":"I've dealt with some of these"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1045.58,"endTime":1049.72,"body":"procurement people and that, I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1049.72,"endTime":1052.3,"body":"mean, I'm sure they're fabulous"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1049.72,"endTime":1052.3,"body":"that I would never want to be"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1052.3,"endTime":1055.18,"body":"their contractor at home. Put it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1052.3,"endTime":1055.18,"body":"that way, you know, they're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1055.18,"endTime":1056.92,"body":"like, Wow, on a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1056.92,"endTime":1059.62,"body":"Wednesday, that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1056.92,"endTime":1059.62,"body":"what everyone used to say about"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1059.62,"endTime":1060.4,"body":"developers."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1061.06,"endTime":1062.16,"body":"Oh, yeah. Well, yeah."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1065.22,"endTime":1067.86,"body":"When, when scrum"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1065.22,"endTime":1067.86,"body":"started out, you know, everyone"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1067.86,"endTime":1071.28,"body":"said, Oh, developers don't talk"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1067.86,"endTime":1071.28,"body":"to people. And, you know, every"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1071.28,"endTime":1074.28,"body":"test has got the heart of a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1071.28,"endTime":1074.28,"body":"developer in a jar on their"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1074.28,"endTime":1079.14,"body":"desk. And the good old joke"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1074.28,"endTime":1079.14,"body":"about asking a developer's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1079.14,"endTime":1084.62,"body":"partner asks them to go to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1079.14,"endTime":1084.62,"body":"shop, and says, go to the shop"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1084.62,"endTime":1087.2,"body":"and get some eggs, and if"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1084.62,"endTime":1087.2,"body":"they've got milk, get two and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1087.2,"endTime":1093.8,"body":"they come back with two eggs."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1087.2,"endTime":1093.8,"body":"Well, they had milk, right? It's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1093.8,"endTime":1096.38,"body":"just like and the way you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1093.8,"endTime":1096.38,"body":"thinking about it, and that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1096.38,"endTime":1100.78,"body":"level of exactitude is needed in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1096.38,"endTime":1100.78,"body":"contracts, because it's money."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1100.78,"endTime":1104.8,"body":"We're talking about building"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1100.78,"endTime":1104.8,"body":"this micro enterprise thinking"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1104.8,"endTime":1107.5,"body":"so that everybody understands"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1104.8,"endTime":1107.5,"body":"the balance sheet, the profit"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1107.5,"endTime":1112.18,"body":"and loss, the spend. How are we"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1107.5,"endTime":1112.18,"body":"going to recover it? Being brave"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1112.18,"endTime":1115.72,"body":"enough to say, Do you know what"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1112.18,"endTime":1115.72,"body":"this feature is? Just draining"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1115.72,"endTime":1120.84,"body":"money. We're going to kill it."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1115.72,"endTime":1120.84,"body":"Google. Do it all the time, so I"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1120.84,"endTime":1125.7,"body":"hear your concern. Ah, I don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1120.84,"endTime":1125.7,"body":"like working with discipline x,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1126.06,"endTime":1129.54,"body":"but that is the antithesis of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1126.06,"endTime":1129.54,"body":"Agile. What we're trying to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1129.54,"endTime":1133.92,"body":"build is cross functional teams"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1129.54,"endTime":1133.92,"body":"and zero silos, because we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1133.92,"endTime":1135.54,"body":"all people. We all got to eat,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1136.2,"endTime":1143.6,"body":"yeah. So Mark Marco,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1136.2,"endTime":1143.6,"body":"so how does a team so I hear"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1143.6,"endTime":1147.44,"body":"you, Simon, I 100% agree, and I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1143.6,"endTime":1147.44,"body":"was being facetious. I actually"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1147.62,"endTime":1151.34,"body":"quite like talking to these"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1147.62,"endTime":1151.34,"body":"people. They always create a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1151.34,"endTime":1154.52,"body":"feeling of dread in me"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1151.34,"endTime":1154.52,"body":"afterwards, because they know"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1154.64,"endTime":1158.42,"body":"how horrible the world can be."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1154.64,"endTime":1158.42,"body":"And I tend to be a more of an"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1158.42,"endTime":1164.08,"body":"optimistic gentleman. But so how"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1158.42,"endTime":1164.08,"body":"do teams engage with these,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1164.08,"endTime":1167.68,"body":"these, these people, and how do"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1164.08,"endTime":1167.68,"body":"they bring them on? Is it a full"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1167.68,"endTime":1172.36,"body":"time situation? You know, what"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1167.68,"endTime":1172.36,"body":"does it look like? You've seen"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1172.36,"endTime":1176.74,"body":"it in the in the wild, or in a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1172.36,"endTime":1176.74,"body":"phrase, how does it what does it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1176.74,"endTime":1177.16,"body":"look like?"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1177.88,"endTime":1182.16,"body":"Yeah. So it's a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1177.88,"endTime":1182.16,"body":"great question. You know, it's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1182.28,"endTime":1187.5,"body":"depends on their maturity,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1182.28,"endTime":1187.5,"body":"right? I mean, your agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1187.5,"endTime":1191.22,"body":"product, operating model, some"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1187.5,"endTime":1191.22,"body":"have just started, let's be"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1191.22,"endTime":1195.12,"body":"frank, right? And so procurement"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1191.22,"endTime":1195.12,"body":"has just started on their"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1195.12,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"journey, maybe, or maybe not. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1195.12,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"that's kind of the first advice."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1200.06,"endTime":1205.64,"body":"That Simon and all of us give,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1200.06,"endTime":1205.64,"body":"if there is a transitional agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1205.64,"endTime":1213.32,"body":"adoption ongoing, think about"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1205.64,"endTime":1213.32,"body":"commercial roles and parts of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1213.32,"endTime":1218.66,"body":"the organization, because there"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1213.32,"endTime":1218.66,"body":"is a huge, huge leverage they"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1218.66,"endTime":1224.02,"body":"have. We have from studies, we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1218.66,"endTime":1224.02,"body":"know that in private sector,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1224.26,"endTime":1229.72,"body":"commercial rules, or an average"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1224.26,"endTime":1229.72,"body":"responsible for up to 80% of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1229.72,"endTime":1235.9,"body":"revenues, yeah, okay, so if we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1229.72,"endTime":1235.9,"body":"can get 100% faster in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1235.9,"endTime":1241.08,"body":"procurement, if we can get, you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1235.9,"endTime":1241.08,"body":"know, better value for money"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1242.04,"endTime":1246.36,"body":"into the product teams that has"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1242.04,"endTime":1246.36,"body":"a direct impact on the business."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1246.78,"endTime":1251.16,"body":"So it's not just, oh yeah, once"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1246.78,"endTime":1251.16,"body":"we have time, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1251.16,"endTime":1255.12,"body":"transform procurement. No, you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1251.16,"endTime":1255.12,"body":"should start there actually,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1256.02,"endTime":1258.96,"body":"together with the strategy and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1256.02,"endTime":1258.96,"body":"product and so on. So that's,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1258.96,"endTime":1264.26,"body":"that's one thing. So just"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1258.96,"endTime":1264.26,"body":"generally. So one tip, if you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1264.32,"endTime":1269.36,"body":"are running a transformation,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1264.32,"endTime":1269.36,"body":"think about to add people from"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1269.96,"endTime":1273.02,"body":"Supply Chain Management,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1269.96,"endTime":1273.02,"body":"procurement, if you are on the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1273.02,"endTime":1277.4,"body":"supplier side, from sales"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1273.02,"endTime":1277.4,"body":"account management and so on. By"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1277.4,"endTime":1282.94,"body":"the way, think about your top"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1277.4,"endTime":1282.94,"body":"three strategic partners. Why"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1282.94,"endTime":1288.76,"body":"don't we include them in our"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1282.94,"endTime":1288.76,"body":"agile transformation? Now the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1288.76,"endTime":1293.68,"body":"second perspective I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1288.76,"endTime":1293.68,"body":"give is, what does a potential"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1293.74,"endTime":1299.26,"body":"should state from a majority"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1293.74,"endTime":1299.26,"body":"look like? Now we have examples"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1299.26,"endTime":1304.38,"body":"out there in the market. Roche"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1299.26,"endTime":1304.38,"body":"is a very good state. Currently,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1305.34,"endTime":1307.86,"body":"they have, for example, turned"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1305.34,"endTime":1307.86,"body":"their whole procurement"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1307.86,"endTime":1312.42,"body":"organization, excellence"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1307.86,"endTime":1312.42,"body":"organization, into a insights"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1312.42,"endTime":1317.82,"body":"and enablement organization. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1312.42,"endTime":1317.82,"body":"what does that mean for a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1317.82,"endTime":1320.82,"body":"product organization, or in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1317.82,"endTime":1320.82,"body":"their case, R and D"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1320.82,"endTime":1325.52,"body":"organizations and so forth."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1320.82,"endTime":1325.52,"body":"Well, from a product"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1325.52,"endTime":1330.2,"body":"perspective, they get all the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1325.52,"endTime":1330.2,"body":"services, all the insights, all"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1330.2,"endTime":1339.56,"body":"the data is platformized, right?"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1330.2,"endTime":1339.56,"body":"So it's just self service. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1339.56,"endTime":1344.62,"body":"there is no more a process. Or"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1339.56,"endTime":1344.62,"body":"Now we need to go through, you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1344.62,"endTime":1349.0,"body":"know, procurement process, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1344.62,"endTime":1349.0,"body":"it's a bottleneck, it will take"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1349.0,"endTime":1354.28,"body":"ages. No, it's just self"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1349.0,"endTime":1354.28,"body":"service. Now, if something is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1354.28,"endTime":1361.5,"body":"complex, we need to build a new"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1354.28,"endTime":1361.5,"body":"strategic partner, or we need to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1361.5,"endTime":1365.16,"body":"develop an existing partnership,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1361.5,"endTime":1365.16,"body":"or we even think about a new"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1365.16,"endTime":1372.66,"body":"supply chain, then these people,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1365.16,"endTime":1372.66,"body":"these capabilities, like in a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1372.66,"endTime":1377.16,"body":"DevOps team, we need them as"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1372.66,"endTime":1377.16,"body":"close as possible. Yeah, so it"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1377.16,"endTime":1382.1,"body":"could be that they are embedded"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1377.16,"endTime":1382.1,"body":"in our product organization"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1382.1,"endTime":1389.72,"body":"because it's just strategic. And"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1382.1,"endTime":1389.72,"body":"I want to put the emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1389.84,"endTime":1394.52,"body":"Simon mentioned several times"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1389.84,"endTime":1394.52,"body":"cross functional. Well, we are"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1394.64,"endTime":1400.36,"body":"currently lifting cross"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1394.64,"endTime":1400.36,"body":"functional to cross company. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1400.36,"endTime":1403.78,"body":"your product organization, you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1400.36,"endTime":1403.78,"body":"might not be familiar, or it's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1403.78,"endTime":1408.16,"body":"not maybe not obvious on the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1403.78,"endTime":1408.16,"body":"first side, you're focusing just"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1408.16,"endTime":1412.96,"body":"on your internal team and team"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1408.16,"endTime":1412.96,"body":"of teams. But think for a second"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1413.02,"endTime":1416.14,"body":"is, are there some strategic"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1413.02,"endTime":1416.14,"body":"partners? And there would be"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1416.2,"endTime":1421.98,"body":"value if you have a joint"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1416.2,"endTime":1421.98,"body":"planning, if we would have joint"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1421.98,"endTime":1427.26,"body":"dailies, a shared impediment"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1421.98,"endTime":1427.26,"body":"backlog, and so on and so on"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1428.1,"endTime":1435.24,"body":"that would, you know, increase"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1428.1,"endTime":1435.24,"body":"our, improve our collaboration"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1435.24,"endTime":1439.86,"body":"and CO innovation capabilities."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1435.24,"endTime":1439.86,"body":"And last comment, Simon, then"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1439.86,"endTime":1445.04,"body":"you can jump in. And all of that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1439.86,"endTime":1445.04,"body":"needs to be supported by the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"legal foundation. So that's also"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"something we have to enable the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1452.66,"endTime":1458.0,"body":"legal teams, compliance officers"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1452.66,"endTime":1458.0,"body":"and so forth, that they have an"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1458.72,"endTime":1462.82,"body":"understanding about agile, about"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1458.72,"endTime":1462.82,"body":"all the possibilities of agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1462.82,"endTime":1468.16,"body":"contracts, so that those"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1462.82,"endTime":1468.16,"body":"contracts are no more separating"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1468.16,"endTime":1471.16,"body":"the organization, and the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1468.16,"endTime":1471.16,"body":"management of the risk is done"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1471.16,"endTime":1478.0,"body":"by the contract. No the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1471.16,"endTime":1478.0,"body":"contracts should enable agility"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1478.18,"endTime":1482.46,"body":"cross company, and we need to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1478.18,"endTime":1482.46,"body":"figure out how to deal with the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1482.52,"endTime":1490.2,"body":"risk, how to deal with the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1482.52,"endTime":1490.2,"body":"governance model, cash out, co"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1490.2,"endTime":1496.98,"body":"invest even, you know, sharing"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1490.2,"endTime":1496.98,"body":"of potential failures. And"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1496.98,"endTime":1500.72,"body":"that's what we are doing. So we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1496.98,"endTime":1500.72,"body":"have, we have created. Create a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1500.72,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"whole framework of agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1500.72,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"contracts. We call it the home"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1514.28,"body":"of agile contract. And yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1504.8,"endTime":1514.28,"body":"think about how strategic are"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1514.28,"endTime":1520.1,"body":"your third party. Then you might"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1514.28,"endTime":1520.1,"body":"need this capability of dealing,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1520.1,"endTime":1523.66,"body":"evaluating all the commercial"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1520.1,"endTime":1523.66,"body":"stuff you need, this capability"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1523.66,"endTime":1527.26,"body":"in your team or Team of Teams,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1523.66,"endTime":1527.26,"body":"organization, and at the same"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1527.26,"endTime":1532.18,"body":"time invest in digitalization."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1527.26,"endTime":1532.18,"body":"That procurement becomes a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1532.18,"endTime":1537.7,"body":"platform, by the way. HR, same"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1532.18,"endTime":1537.7,"body":"thing, finance, same thing,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1537.82,"endTime":1542.76,"body":"right? So, if somebody comes up"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1537.82,"endTime":1542.76,"body":"with a new product idea, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1542.76,"endTime":1547.68,"body":"that's the vision of a product"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1542.76,"endTime":1547.68,"body":"operating model. Everything is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1547.68,"endTime":1552.84,"body":"there, and the organization is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1547.68,"endTime":1552.84,"body":"more like hire. Is operating"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1552.84,"endTime":1560.72,"body":"hire, the Chinese company, which"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1552.84,"endTime":1560.72,"body":"turned into over 5000 micro"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1560.72,"endTime":1565.34,"body":"enterprises, self organized,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1560.72,"endTime":1565.34,"body":"self managed, even the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1565.34,"endTime":1570.68,"body":"commercial they have an open"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1565.34,"endTime":1570.68,"body":"strategy that are open to define"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1570.68,"endTime":1576.74,"body":"their own salaries and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1570.68,"endTime":1576.74,"body":"participation on success and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1576.74,"endTime":1580.66,"body":"product Everything you wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1576.74,"endTime":1580.66,"body":"expect that in a Chinese"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1581.44,"endTime":1588.16,"body":"context, and you can't operate"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1581.44,"endTime":1588.16,"body":"more than 5000 micro enterprises"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1588.16,"endTime":1592.9,"body":"or Team of Teams if you don't"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1588.16,"endTime":1592.9,"body":"have the platforms that support"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1592.9,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"them, not just procurement, as I"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1592.9,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"said, Simon, you wanted To add"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1597.04,"endTime":1597.46,"body":"something."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1598.48,"endTime":1602.94,"body":"Yes, thinking"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1598.48,"endTime":1602.94,"body":"about bringing your people from"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1603.0,"endTime":1609.78,"body":"HR, from legal, from compliance,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1603.0,"endTime":1609.78,"body":"from procurement, together they"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1609.78,"endTime":1612.6,"body":"could support a product, or if"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1609.78,"endTime":1612.6,"body":"your products big enough a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1612.6,"endTime":1616.92,"body":"portfolio, so that would sit at"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1612.6,"endTime":1616.92,"body":"your Nexus daily, if you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1616.92,"endTime":1623.18,"body":"using scrum.org Nexus framework"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1616.92,"endTime":1623.18,"body":"or a portfolio daily event so"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1623.18,"endTime":1630.08,"body":"that risk is managed by"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1623.18,"endTime":1630.08,"body":"resolving it. The traditional"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1630.08,"endTime":1634.1,"body":"model of putting it on the risk"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1630.08,"endTime":1634.1,"body":"log and going, I accept that is"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1634.22,"endTime":1639.56,"body":"naive at best. There's been a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1634.22,"endTime":1639.56,"body":"number of big, big projects that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1639.56,"endTime":1644.38,"body":"have come awry of just going, I"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1639.56,"endTime":1644.38,"body":"accept that risk. The F 35 the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1644.38,"endTime":1649.54,"body":"single largest overspend in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1644.38,"endTime":1649.54,"body":"defense history within the UK."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1649.9,"endTime":1654.58,"body":"There's been a, there's been"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1649.9,"endTime":1654.58,"body":"some, a series of clangers, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1654.58,"endTime":1659.44,"body":"High Speed Rail HS two, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1654.58,"endTime":1659.44,"body":"aircraft carriers, where they"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1659.5,"endTime":1662.94,"body":"ripped out the jet launching"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1659.5,"endTime":1662.94,"body":"system, the caterpillar, which"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1662.94,"endTime":1665.16,"body":"is blue, it would have been"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1662.94,"endTime":1665.16,"body":"cheaper to leave the thing in,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1665.64,"endTime":1669.96,"body":"and we would be able to work"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1665.64,"endTime":1669.96,"body":"with other air forces, but the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1670.26,"endTime":1673.74,"body":"NHS IT system, so they're the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1670.26,"endTime":1673.74,"body":"three that come to mind just in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1673.86,"endTime":1678.78,"body":"the UK where I'm operating."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1673.86,"endTime":1678.78,"body":"Having that discussion with"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1678.78,"endTime":1683.72,"body":"those people at a daily basis,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1678.78,"endTime":1683.72,"body":"means that you have credible,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1685.16,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"broad, ranged advice to support"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1685.16,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"your product leadership. Who"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1692.12,"endTime":1694.4,"body":"are, ultimately, they're the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1692.12,"endTime":1694.4,"body":"mini CEOs. That's the model"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1694.4,"endTime":1697.94,"body":"we're promoting, right? That's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1694.4,"endTime":1697.94,"body":"the APM model, because they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1697.94,"endTime":1701.2,"body":"the mini CEO, as mercos saying,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1697.94,"endTime":1701.2,"body":"looking after their micro"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1701.2,"endTime":1705.94,"body":"enterprise or enterprise if it's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1701.2,"endTime":1705.94,"body":"a big enough chunk of pie. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1705.94,"endTime":1710.5,"body":"they should be talking to their"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1705.94,"endTime":1710.5,"body":"chief of HR, Chief of legal,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1710.5,"endTime":1714.34,"body":"Chief of compliance, Chief of"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1710.5,"endTime":1714.34,"body":"procurement, and particularly if"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1714.34,"endTime":1720.04,"body":"we're managing money. It's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1714.34,"endTime":1720.04,"body":"My dad always taught me, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1720.4,"endTime":1724.44,"body":"golden rule of business is"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1720.4,"endTime":1724.44,"body":"whoever's got the gold makes the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1724.44,"endTime":1729.24,"body":"rules. So we better know how"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1724.44,"endTime":1729.24,"body":"much gold we've gotten, where"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1729.24,"endTime":1732.84,"body":"it's coming from. And who better"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1729.24,"endTime":1732.84,"body":"to advise us than our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1732.84,"endTime":1737.7,"body":"procurement experts? And we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1732.84,"endTime":1737.7,"body":"not. It takes so long to become"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1737.7,"endTime":1741.56,"body":"an expert in a domain. You don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1737.7,"endTime":1741.56,"body":"need to be an expert in a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1741.56,"endTime":1744.56,"body":"domain. You need to have those"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1741.56,"endTime":1744.56,"body":"experts help working together as"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1744.56,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"a collaborative team."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1747.14,"endTime":1751.4,"body":"And I want to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1747.14,"endTime":1751.4,"body":"give a very practical tip to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1751.4,"endTime":1756.62,"body":"some of the, you know, some of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1751.4,"endTime":1756.62,"body":"the guys in the audience, or"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1756.62,"endTime":1761.2,"body":"maybe team members or Scrum"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1756.62,"endTime":1761.2,"body":"Masters, you know, and yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1761.2,"endTime":1765.04,"body":"would be awesome if you know"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1761.2,"endTime":1765.04,"body":"these guys are involved in our"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1765.04,"endTime":1770.14,"body":"transformation. So but I What"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1765.04,"endTime":1770.14,"body":"can I do? Well, we often forget"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1770.14,"endTime":1775.24,"body":"the most trivial thing is, you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1770.14,"endTime":1775.24,"body":"know, if we have something ahead"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1775.42,"endTime":1781.5,"body":"where it's clear, we need to go"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1775.42,"endTime":1781.5,"body":"to the market. Just walk over in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1781.5,"endTime":1785.46,"body":"the other department,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1781.5,"endTime":1785.46,"body":"procurement, or whatever is the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1785.46,"endTime":1790.02,"body":"one, and get them, you know, get"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1785.46,"endTime":1790.02,"body":"in touch with them and say,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1790.02,"endTime":1795.48,"body":"look, it's not yet urgent, but"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1790.02,"endTime":1795.48,"body":"we want to get you involved as"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1795.48,"endTime":1799.5,"body":"early as possible. By the way,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1795.48,"endTime":1799.5,"body":"we are operating in a completely"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1799.5,"endTime":1804.5,"body":"different. And way you might"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1799.5,"endTime":1804.5,"body":"have heard of it, let's get the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1804.5,"endTime":1809.3,"body":"conversation started. How we can"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1804.5,"endTime":1809.3,"body":"include you the best, and how"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1809.3,"endTime":1813.08,"body":"can we deal with uncertainty and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1809.3,"endTime":1813.08,"body":"so forth. Same thing, by the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1813.08,"endTime":1817.16,"body":"way, for lawyers, I need to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1813.08,"endTime":1817.16,"body":"laugh before Dave however, he"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1817.16,"endTime":1821.8,"body":"said, I don't know how you know"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1817.16,"endTime":1821.8,"body":"these guys in procurement well,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1821.98,"endTime":1825.94,"body":"people are even more afraid of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1821.98,"endTime":1825.94,"body":"lawyers, but same story with"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1825.94,"endTime":1828.52,"body":"them. You know, they're the last"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1825.94,"endTime":1828.52,"body":"in the chain"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1830.08,"endTime":1832.72,"body":"and governance and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":1830.08,"endTime":1832.72,"body":"compliance,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1832.78,"endTime":1836.56,"body":"everything needs"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1832.78,"endTime":1836.56,"body":"to be done yesterday, so in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1836.56,"endTime":1841.8,"body":"every of the super complex"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1836.56,"endTime":1841.8,"body":"procurements we are involved in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1842.22,"endTime":1847.98,"body":"on my second day in the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1842.22,"endTime":1847.98,"body":"engagement, I gonna visit with"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1847.98,"endTime":1852.84,"body":"the legal team, because they"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1847.98,"endTime":1852.84,"body":"need to know something is"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1852.84,"endTime":1857.22,"body":"coming. It will be completely"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1852.84,"endTime":1857.22,"body":"different. They usually have no"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1857.22,"endTime":1860.9,"body":"clue about agile, agile"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1857.22,"endTime":1860.9,"body":"contracts. So we need to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1860.9,"endTime":1865.76,"body":"prepare, we need to maybe even"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1860.9,"endTime":1865.76,"body":"enable them along with the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1865.76,"endTime":1870.74,"body":"project. So and they are very"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1865.76,"endTime":1870.74,"body":"welcoming. You know, they are"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1870.74,"endTime":1874.88,"body":"very, very much appreciating"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1870.74,"endTime":1874.88,"body":"that they are getting involved"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":1874.88,"endTime":1875.3,"body":"so early"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1876.44,"endTime":1880.9,"body":"they are. I have the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1876.44,"endTime":1880.9,"body":"same experience. However, it is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1880.9,"endTime":1887.08,"body":"very clear very quickly that the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1880.9,"endTime":1887.08,"body":"goals between a product who's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1887.08,"endTime":1890.56,"body":"ultimately trying to push, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1887.08,"endTime":1890.56,"body":"know, to innovate, to deliver"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1890.56,"endTime":1895.42,"body":"new value, to do things in a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1890.56,"endTime":1895.42,"body":"very different way, their goals"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1895.42,"endTime":1900.52,"body":"do not align with the goals of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1895.42,"endTime":1900.52,"body":"set usually centralized,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1900.64,"endTime":1904.86,"body":"particularly legal departments,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1900.64,"endTime":1904.86,"body":"and because legal departments is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1904.92,"endTime":1909.72,"body":"ultimately to reduce risk and to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1904.92,"endTime":1909.72,"body":"basically say no and any change"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1909.78,"endTime":1914.88,"body":"is a risk. So one thing that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1909.78,"endTime":1914.88,"body":"I've always you know and I like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1914.88,"endTime":1918.54,"body":"about the lean, agile"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1914.88,"endTime":1918.54,"body":"procurement approaches with the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1918.9,"endTime":1921.5,"body":"you know, trendy things like"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1918.9,"endTime":1921.5,"body":"canvases, or whatever you want"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1921.5,"endTime":1925.58,"body":"to call them, but the mechanism"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1921.5,"endTime":1925.58,"body":"that you use to get everybody on"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1925.58,"endTime":1929.84,"body":"the same page about goals, or"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1925.58,"endTime":1929.84,"body":"which is often the case, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1929.84,"endTime":1935.36,"body":"disalignment, make it"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1929.84,"endTime":1935.36,"body":"transparent. You know, Simon has"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1935.36,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"taught me professional Scrum. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1935.36,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"was using Scrum before I joined"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1938.06,"endTime":1941.86,"body":"scrum.org but over the last 10"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1938.06,"endTime":1941.86,"body":"years, he has, and a few others"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1941.86,"endTime":1945.16,"body":"have continually hit me with"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1941.86,"endTime":1945.16,"body":"this rational scrum hammer. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1945.4,"endTime":1947.92,"body":"one of the most important jobs"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1945.4,"endTime":1947.92,"body":"as a scrum master, and I know"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1947.92,"endTime":1950.5,"body":"this is a different scale often,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1947.92,"endTime":1950.5,"body":"but is to make things"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1950.5,"endTime":1954.4,"body":"transparent. That's their job."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1950.5,"endTime":1954.4,"body":"If you make them transparent and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1954.4,"endTime":1960.66,"body":"then involve the right people,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1954.4,"endTime":1960.66,"body":"then magic tends to happen. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1960.66,"endTime":1963.9,"body":"so one of the most important"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1960.66,"endTime":1963.9,"body":"things we do when engaging legal"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1963.9,"endTime":1966.78,"body":"isn't just going and having a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1963.9,"endTime":1966.78,"body":"cup of coffee with them, though"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1966.78,"endTime":1970.08,"body":"I do recommend that,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1966.78,"endTime":1970.08,"body":"particularly if they're buying"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1970.44,"endTime":1974.7,"body":"but the is to actually try to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1970.44,"endTime":1974.7,"body":"get these goals very"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1974.7,"endTime":1979.26,"body":"transparent, because then the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1974.7,"endTime":1979.26,"body":"CEO wants Everything. The CEO"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1979.26,"endTime":1984.14,"body":"wants no risk. Wants massive"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1979.26,"endTime":1984.14,"body":"innovation wants, and we live in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1984.14,"endTime":1987.86,"body":"a world of not you can't have"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1984.14,"endTime":1987.86,"body":"everything. Can't have your"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1987.86,"endTime":1990.62,"body":"cake. You can't eat it. You"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1987.86,"endTime":1990.62,"body":"can't you know if you're going"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1990.62,"endTime":1993.56,"body":"to get drunk tomorrow night,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1990.62,"endTime":1993.56,"body":"tonight, you're going to have a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1993.56,"endTime":1997.4,"body":"hangover tomorrow. We live in"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1993.56,"endTime":1997.4,"body":"that world, and you have to make"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1997.4,"endTime":2001.62,"body":"these things, and choices need"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":1997.4,"endTime":2001.62,"body":"to be made. Is that okay? Do you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2001.62,"endTime":2003.18,"body":"think this transparency thing?"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2003.6,"endTime":2006.54,"body":"I think I can"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2003.6,"endTime":2006.54,"body":"start and then Simon, please"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2006.54,"endTime":2010.32,"body":"add, I think that's exactly"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2006.54,"endTime":2010.32,"body":"where we are. You know, that's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2010.32,"endTime":2016.62,"body":"the core value, beside the value"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2010.32,"endTime":2016.62,"body":"of operating on a win win"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2016.62,"endTime":2023.24,"body":"mindset is creating, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2016.62,"endTime":2023.24,"body":"transparent, collaborative"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2023.24,"endTime":2029.3,"body":"approach. Were, for example, in"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2023.24,"endTime":2029.3,"body":"a in a in a in a kickoff,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2030.2,"endTime":2033.62,"body":"usually, you know, in a standard"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2030.2,"endTime":2033.62,"body":"procurement kickoff, it will be"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2033.62,"endTime":2036.92,"body":"procurement and some"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2033.62,"endTime":2036.92,"body":"stakeholders, that's it. Now we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2037.04,"endTime":2044.08,"body":"add everybody that has something"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2037.04,"endTime":2044.08,"body":"to say, even lawyers, compliance"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2044.08,"endTime":2050.32,"body":"officer, if it's, you know, data"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2044.08,"endTime":2050.32,"body":"security or whatsoever. And"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2051.22,"endTime":2055.18,"body":"because, at the very beginning"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2051.22,"endTime":2055.18,"body":"of something, it's basically, it"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2055.18,"endTime":2060.28,"body":"could be a new product in your"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2055.18,"endTime":2060.28,"body":"sense, right? Or a new aspect of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2060.28,"endTime":2064.92,"body":"the product we need. The most"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2060.28,"endTime":2064.92,"body":"important thing is to get an"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2064.92,"endTime":2070.02,"body":"alignment very early, and also"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2064.92,"endTime":2070.02,"body":"to have the transparency about"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2070.02,"endTime":2075.84,"body":"risks gray zones and you know,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2070.02,"endTime":2075.84,"body":"where people see potential"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2075.84,"endTime":2079.8,"body":"impediments, etc, and we can"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2075.84,"endTime":2079.8,"body":"accept it or not. And the same"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2079.8,"endTime":2084.98,"body":"thing we apply with the vendors,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2079.8,"endTime":2084.98,"body":"because traditionally, we write"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2084.98,"endTime":2089.9,"body":"documents, send it over the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2084.98,"endTime":2089.9,"body":"fence, expect proposals, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2089.9,"endTime":2094.7,"body":"there is so much"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2089.9,"endTime":2094.7,"body":"misunderstanding right, which"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2094.7,"endTime":2098.24,"body":"leads to a lot of costs, which"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2094.7,"endTime":2098.24,"body":"leads to a lot of friction,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2098.24,"endTime":2103.9,"body":"delays over budget. It and so"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2098.24,"endTime":2103.9,"body":"forth and so forth. So it's so"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2103.9,"endTime":2109.78,"body":"powerful just to co create a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2103.9,"endTime":2109.78,"body":"proposal. I know we don't go"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2109.78,"endTime":2114.94,"body":"into a deep into the details"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2109.78,"endTime":2114.94,"body":"today, but just think about it."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2114.94,"endTime":2119.14,"body":"You know, you get all the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2114.94,"endTime":2119.14,"body":"information as a vendor, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2119.74,"endTime":2123.0,"body":"maybe there are three, four of"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2119.74,"endTime":2123.0,"body":"your competitors in the same"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2123.0,"endTime":2127.2,"body":"room, and they do the same thing"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2123.0,"endTime":2127.2,"body":"in parallel, and you have the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2127.2,"endTime":2133.2,"body":"opportunity to talk to real"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2127.2,"endTime":2133.2,"body":"users, to talk to real clients,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2133.2,"endTime":2138.48,"body":"to talk to the head of platform"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2133.2,"endTime":2138.48,"body":"security. You know, I read here"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2138.48,"endTime":2143.18,"body":"something, I don't get it."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2138.48,"endTime":2143.18,"body":"Please explain and so forth. So"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2143.42,"endTime":2148.76,"body":"what we are doing is we're"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2143.42,"endTime":2148.76,"body":"testing the collaboration."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2150.08,"endTime":2153.98,"body":"Somebody once said it's like"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2150.08,"endTime":2153.98,"body":"speed dating before, before"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2153.98,"endTime":2158.72,"body":"getting married. And it's really"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2153.98,"endTime":2158.72,"body":"true, right? Because"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2159.8,"endTime":2164.68,"body":"capabilities, expertise, their"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2159.8,"endTime":2164.68,"body":"products and pricing, that all"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2164.68,"endTime":2170.44,"body":"matters. But as important is we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2164.68,"endTime":2170.44,"body":"like each other. Can we imagine"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2170.5,"endTime":2175.36,"body":"to be on that project for the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2170.5,"endTime":2175.36,"body":"next 612, whatever months, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2175.36,"endTime":2179.98,"body":"then, you know, continued by"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2175.36,"endTime":2179.98,"body":"operations and continuous"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2182.76,"body":"improvement and further"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2179.98,"endTime":2182.76,"body":"development, you know, in the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2182.76,"endTime":2187.92,"body":"product sense. So, ah, it's,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2182.76,"endTime":2187.92,"body":"it's at, it's really, it's at"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2188.04,"endTime":2190.08,"body":"transparency is at the core."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2190.74,"endTime":2191.82,"body":"So, Simon,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2192.78,"endTime":2196.14,"body":"yeah, I can care,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2192.78,"endTime":2196.14,"body":"and would like to build on what"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2196.14,"endTime":2200.66,"body":"both of you said. And back in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2196.14,"endTime":2200.66,"body":"the day when we first started"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2200.66,"endTime":2204.68,"body":"doing Scrum. Well, when I first"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2200.66,"endTime":2204.68,"body":"started doing Scrum in the early"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2204.68,"endTime":2208.28,"body":"2000s we had a huge pushback"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2204.68,"endTime":2208.28,"body":"from the ops people. They're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2208.28,"endTime":2211.88,"body":"like, what are you doing? You're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2208.28,"endTime":2211.88,"body":"releasing again, but you only"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2211.88,"endTime":2215.06,"body":"released two to three weeks ago."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2211.88,"endTime":2215.06,"body":"What? What? Yeah, we got a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2215.06,"endTime":2218.48,"body":"little bit more value. Oh, this."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2215.06,"endTime":2218.48,"body":"And then eventually we got moved"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2218.48,"endTime":2221.8,"body":"to the front of the cab, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2218.48,"endTime":2221.8,"body":"this is where the whole DevOps"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2221.8,"endTime":2225.7,"body":"movement came from, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2221.8,"endTime":2225.7,"body":"operations learned to trust"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"because those cross functional"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"teams were building a better"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2229.18,"endTime":2233.74,"body":"product. So Andy Spence, a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2229.18,"endTime":2233.74,"body":"fellow PST, he did this with"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2233.74,"endTime":2236.74,"body":"compliance at a major financial"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2233.74,"endTime":2236.74,"body":"institution, and they worked in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2236.74,"endTime":2242.22,"body":"a beautifully agile, Scrum based"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2236.74,"endTime":2242.22,"body":"way. And compliance. Love it"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2242.22,"endTime":2245.52,"body":"when you get engaged in because"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2242.22,"endTime":2245.52,"body":"the last thing they need is, oh,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2245.58,"endTime":2248.94,"body":"we're going live next week. Tell"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2245.58,"endTime":2248.94,"body":"us what's wrong. And so crikey,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2248.94,"endTime":2252.3,"body":"if you'd come to us, you know,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2248.94,"endTime":2252.3,"body":"six weeks a month, a year, a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2252.3,"endTime":2255.0,"body":"year ago, we could have made"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2252.3,"endTime":2255.0,"body":"sure that you're we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2255.0,"endTime":2258.84,"body":"completely compliant, so that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2255.0,"endTime":2258.84,"body":"that early warning is a risk"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2258.84,"endTime":2263.12,"body":"mitigation technique. And when"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2258.84,"endTime":2263.12,"body":"we bring our people together,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2263.12,"endTime":2265.88,"body":"like particularly in the big"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2263.12,"endTime":2265.88,"body":"room process that we use in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2265.88,"endTime":2269.48,"body":"lean, agile procurement, so"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2265.88,"endTime":2269.48,"body":"we've got three potential"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2269.6,"endTime":2273.98,"body":"partners, and we're having this"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2269.6,"endTime":2273.98,"body":"discussion in the room. Our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2273.98,"endTime":2277.76,"body":"feedback loop is so short, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2273.98,"endTime":2277.76,"body":"because we're transparent, we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2277.76,"endTime":2282.58,"body":"hitting all the compliance, anti"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2277.76,"endTime":2282.58,"body":"corruption, anti bribery,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2283.06,"endTime":2286.12,"body":"government checklists, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2283.06,"endTime":2286.12,"body":"all the suppliers are hearing"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2286.12,"endTime":2291.04,"body":"the same message simultaneously."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2286.12,"endTime":2291.04,"body":"And depending on how long your"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2291.04,"endTime":2295.78,"body":"procurement process is, let's"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2291.04,"endTime":2295.78,"body":"say it takes you a year to bring"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2295.78,"endTime":2298.96,"body":"in a procurement contract using"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2295.78,"endTime":2298.96,"body":"your traditional procurement"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2298.96,"endTime":2302.4,"body":"process, and we do it in a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2298.96,"endTime":2302.4,"body":"month, we're saving the better"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2302.4,"endTime":2308.22,"body":"part of 11 months, which is, if"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2302.4,"endTime":2308.22,"body":"we've got a single team, a"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2308.22,"endTime":2315.42,"body":"single scrum team, at 70k at"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2308.22,"endTime":2315.42,"body":"Sprint, that's 2,000,011 months."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2316.14,"endTime":2316.44,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2317.94,"endTime":2320.96,"body":"I think that it's"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2317.94,"endTime":2320.96,"body":"transparency, but it's also"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2321.02,"endTime":2325.16,"body":"regular inspection. It's not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2321.02,"endTime":2325.16,"body":"just because, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2325.28,"endTime":2329.54,"body":"talked about the high speed"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2325.28,"endTime":2329.54,"body":"railing, and I know a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2329.54,"endTime":2333.44,"body":"about that because my cousin was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2329.54,"endTime":2333.44,"body":"part of the consulting team"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2333.44,"endTime":2338.12,"body":"there, and he used to over a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2333.44,"endTime":2338.12,"body":"pint of IPA, which he liked to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2338.12,"endTime":2342.04,"body":"drink. He'd talk about it, and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2338.12,"endTime":2342.04,"body":"without breaking any"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2342.1,"endTime":2346.72,"body":"confidentialities. But and one"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2342.1,"endTime":2346.72,"body":"of the issues wasn't actually"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2346.72,"endTime":2350.68,"body":"the initial goals, it was the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2346.72,"endTime":2350.68,"body":"fact goals over time and nobody"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2350.68,"endTime":2354.52,"body":"wanted to rock the boat. Nobody"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2350.68,"endTime":2354.52,"body":"observed stuff. It was no"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2354.52,"endTime":2357.34,"body":"continuous inspection and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2354.52,"endTime":2357.34,"body":"adaption and and appreciate,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2357.34,"endTime":2360.04,"body":"some of these goals were"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2357.34,"endTime":2360.04,"body":"untenable. They were just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2360.04,"endTime":2363.24,"body":"impossible. That's not saying"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2360.04,"endTime":2363.24,"body":"they're bad goals. It's not"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2363.24,"endTime":2367.44,"body":"saying anything else. It's just"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2363.24,"endTime":2367.44,"body":"the it's, it's transparency,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2367.44,"endTime":2369.78,"body":"frequency, etc. Micah,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2371.64,"endTime":2375.0,"body":"you raised a very"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2371.64,"endTime":2375.0,"body":"important thing in inspection"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2375.0,"endTime":2381.26,"body":"and adaption. Now let's put"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2375.0,"endTime":2381.26,"body":"procurement of what means that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2381.26,"endTime":2389.3,"body":"in the sense of procurement,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2381.26,"endTime":2389.3,"body":"yeah. So imagine you, you are a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2389.3,"endTime":2393.74,"body":"startup, or an investor in a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2389.3,"endTime":2393.74,"body":"startup, and the whole business"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2393.74,"endTime":2399.92,"body":"case is worth it, 100 millions,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2393.74,"endTime":2399.92,"body":"yeah. Would you ever ever find."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2400.24,"endTime":2405.7,"body":"Want the startup with 100"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2400.24,"endTime":2405.7,"body":"millions at once? No, it's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2405.7,"endTime":2410.14,"body":"obvious, right? But that's what"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2405.7,"endTime":2410.14,"body":"we do with procurement, because"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2410.2,"endTime":2416.14,"body":"in a complex strategic space,"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2410.2,"endTime":2416.14,"body":"it's as uncertain if those"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2416.14,"endTime":2420.78,"body":"assumption you know, if this"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2416.14,"endTime":2420.78,"body":"partner will or this new service"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2420.78,"endTime":2426.24,"body":"we gonna build together with the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2420.78,"endTime":2426.24,"body":"partner, or whatever it is, will"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2426.24,"endTime":2433.02,"body":"be successful. So what Lean"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2426.24,"endTime":2433.02,"body":"natural procurement does is it"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2433.08,"endTime":2439.98,"body":"looks it prioritizes even"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2433.08,"endTime":2439.98,"body":"procurements and slices it down"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2440.88,"endTime":2447.86,"body":"to the most promising hypothesis"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2440.88,"endTime":2447.86,"body":"first. So we are applying the"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2447.86,"endTime":2453.44,"body":"2080 rule, right? If we can"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2447.86,"endTime":2453.44,"body":"achieve with 20% of the spend"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2453.44,"endTime":2458.18,"body":"budget, 80% of the value, let's"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2453.44,"endTime":2458.18,"body":"just do it when we want to do it"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2458.18,"endTime":2461.68,"body":"fast. We want to get as fast"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2458.18,"endTime":2461.68,"body":"feedback from the market as"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2461.68,"endTime":2465.28,"body":"possible, and then if we see we"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2461.68,"endTime":2465.28,"body":"are heading in the right"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2465.28,"endTime":2469.96,"body":"direction, we are willing to"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2465.28,"endTime":2469.96,"body":"invest more. So you could also"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2469.96,"endTime":2478.36,"body":"say procurement is more of an"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2469.96,"endTime":2478.36,"body":"investor into the products, and"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2478.6,"endTime":2481.26,"body":"the whole sourcing strategy"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2478.6,"endTime":2481.26,"body":"becomes incremental."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2482.04,"endTime":2482.58,"body":"Simon,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2483.54,"endTime":2486.24,"body":"yeah, to build on"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2483.54,"endTime":2486.24,"body":"what Mirko is saying, this is"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2486.24,"endTime":2490.92,"body":"where using evidence based"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2486.24,"endTime":2490.92,"body":"management having clear metrics"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2491.16,"endTime":2495.84,"body":"to measure it and feed into that"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2491.16,"endTime":2495.84,"body":"learning loop, so that as our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2495.84,"endTime":2500.54,"body":"team ships regularly at either"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2495.84,"endTime":2500.54,"body":"single team, product or"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2500.54,"endTime":2505.4,"body":"portfolio level, being able to"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2500.54,"endTime":2505.4,"body":"quickly get to the build versus"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2505.4,"endTime":2510.14,"body":"buy decision as quickly as"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2505.4,"endTime":2510.14,"body":"possible, to have a consistent"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2510.56,"endTime":2513.98,"body":"clarity. So it doesn't mean the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2510.56,"endTime":2513.98,"body":"approach has to be same, but we"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2513.98,"endTime":2517.82,"body":"have a consistent clarity across"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2513.98,"endTime":2517.82,"body":"our organization or our subset."},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2519.08,"endTime":2522.52,"body":"That means that we can then"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2519.08,"endTime":2522.52,"body":"manage our risk and maximize the"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2522.76,"endTime":2524.68,"body":"effectiveness of our"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2522.76,"endTime":2524.68,"body":"organization."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2526.48,"endTime":2529.3,"body":"I mean, yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2526.48,"endTime":2529.3,"body":"that almost just sums it up."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2529.3,"endTime":2532.18,"body":"However, I could talk to you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2529.3,"endTime":2532.18,"body":"gentlemen for hours, because"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2532.18,"endTime":2536.56,"body":"there's so many, so many topics"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2532.18,"endTime":2536.56,"body":"that you raise that I'd love to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2536.62,"endTime":2541.62,"body":"lean into in your experiences is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2536.62,"endTime":2541.62,"body":"incredible, but we have to have"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2541.62,"endTime":2545.04,"body":"to come to a close. So, all"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2541.62,"endTime":2545.04,"body":"right, I'm sitting here, the"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2545.04,"endTime":2548.7,"body":"majority of our audiences"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2545.04,"endTime":2548.7,"body":"working in teams, hopefully"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2548.7,"endTime":2552.84,"body":"product teams, fingers crossed,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2548.7,"endTime":2552.84,"body":"or at least teams, and they're"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2552.84,"endTime":2557.94,"body":"like, oh, okay, so what can they"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2552.84,"endTime":2557.94,"body":"do? One thing, brief, one thing,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2558.18,"endTime":2564.62,"body":"what can they do? Okay, do I"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2564.62,"endTime":2567.86,"body":"think increase"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2564.62,"endTime":2567.86,"body":"the awareness. So if they are"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2567.86,"endTime":2573.44,"body":"new to what we just talked"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2567.86,"endTime":2573.44,"body":"about, visit our website. Get"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2573.44,"endTime":2578.06,"body":"yourself, you know, up to speed."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2573.44,"endTime":2578.06,"body":"What's the value, and then find"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2578.06,"endTime":2582.04,"body":"your role in that. Maybe you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2578.06,"endTime":2582.04,"body":"don't have a role, then you just"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2582.04,"endTime":2586.72,"body":"hand it over to somebody you"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2582.04,"endTime":2586.72,"body":"think should know that if you're"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2586.72,"endTime":2590.2,"body":"a scrum master, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2586.72,"endTime":2590.2,"body":"product owner, you should know"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2590.2,"endTime":2596.74,"body":"that stuff, because what I like"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2590.2,"endTime":2596.74,"body":"about your a palm is procurement"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2596.74,"endTime":2602.88,"body":"is no more optional. It's part"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2596.74,"endTime":2602.88,"body":"of it, right? So I think that"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2602.88,"endTime":2606.3,"body":"that will be my tip, no, Simon,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2608.04,"endTime":2612.66,"body":"yes, and it's you"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2608.04,"endTime":2612.66,"body":"need to do that, go and talk"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2614.46,"endTime":2618.18,"body":"like everybody's human"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2614.46,"endTime":2618.18,"body":"businesses are built by human"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2618.18,"endTime":2623.96,"body":"connection. Find out who is in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2618.18,"endTime":2623.96,"body":"your procurement team. Find out"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2623.96,"endTime":2628.82,"body":"who is in who's supporting you"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2623.96,"endTime":2628.82,"body":"financially. Procurement wise,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2628.82,"endTime":2631.94,"body":"compliance wise, governance"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2628.82,"endTime":2631.94,"body":"wise, go and have a chat and"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2631.94,"endTime":2634.52,"body":"say, Look, how can we work"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2631.94,"endTime":2634.52,"body":"together to make life easier for"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2634.52,"endTime":2638.72,"body":"all of us? And if you can do it"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2634.52,"endTime":2638.72,"body":"in your organization, treat all"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2638.72,"endTime":2642.22,"body":"your partner organizations in"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2638.72,"endTime":2642.22,"body":"the same way, but start small,"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2642.22,"endTime":2645.34,"body":"start local, just like we did"},{"speaker":"Simon Reindl","startTime":2642.22,"endTime":2645.34,"body":"with Scrum 25 years ago."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2647.68,"endTime":2649.66,"body":"That's great. Words"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2647.68,"endTime":2649.66,"body":"of wisdom, gentlemen, well,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2649.66,"endTime":2652.9,"body":"thank you for taking the time"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2649.66,"endTime":2652.9,"body":"today. I really appreciate it. I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2652.9,"endTime":2655.84,"body":"know you're busy, though it is"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2652.9,"endTime":2655.84,"body":"the summer, so I've actually"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2656.14,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"hopefully pulled you away from"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2656.14,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"the beach or drinking margaritas"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2659.68,"endTime":2663.9,"body":"by the pool, but thank you for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2659.68,"endTime":2663.9,"body":"spending the time today, and I"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2663.9,"endTime":2665.7,"body":"know our listeners really"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2663.9,"endTime":2665.7,"body":"appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2667.2,"endTime":2670.32,"body":"Thanks for having"},{"speaker":"Mirko Kleiner","startTime":2667.2,"endTime":2670.32,"body":"us. Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2670.32,"endTime":2674.1,"body":"today. Gosh, that was"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2670.32,"endTime":2674.1,"body":"interesting. Listeners. We heard"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2674.52,"endTime":2677.94,"body":"about how procurement is a key"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2674.52,"endTime":2677.94,"body":"part of the Agile product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2677.94,"endTime":2682.34,"body":"operating model. We learned a"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2677.94,"endTime":2682.34,"body":"little bit about how it needs to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2682.34,"endTime":2686.54,"body":"be embedded in these"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2682.34,"endTime":2686.54,"body":"particularly large product teams"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2686.54,"endTime":2691.4,"body":"that are embarking on innovation"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2686.54,"endTime":2691.4,"body":"and change, and that it's a key"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2691.76,"endTime":2695.3,"body":"aspect of all of the aspects of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2691.76,"endTime":2695.3,"body":"product development and needs to"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2695.3,"endTime":2698.36,"body":"be made transparent and"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2695.3,"endTime":2698.36,"body":"inspected and adapted. And"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2698.36,"endTime":2703.12,"body":"apparently you. These, these"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2698.36,"endTime":2703.12,"body":"commercial people, are actually"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2703.12,"endTime":2708.1,"body":"human beings. Simon did say that"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2703.12,"endTime":2708.1,"body":"a few times, and I have evidence"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2708.1,"endTime":2710.92,"body":"that supports that hypothesis."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2708.1,"endTime":2710.92,"body":"But there's always a great"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2710.92,"endTime":2714.82,"body":"opportunity in your organization"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2710.92,"endTime":2714.82,"body":"to test it. So talk to them, get"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2714.82,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"them involved, make them part of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2714.82,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"the solution, not the problem."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2719.5,"endTime":2724.38,"body":"You know, it's on you. If you go"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2719.5,"endTime":2724.38,"body":"to them at the in like day 5000"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2725.04,"endTime":2728.76,"body":"of a program and say, Hey, I've"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2725.04,"endTime":2728.76,"body":"got this thing, can we release"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2728.82,"endTime":2733.62,"body":"it? And they go, hang on, get"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2728.82,"endTime":2733.62,"body":"them in earlier, make them part"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2733.62,"endTime":2738.18,"body":"of the solution, and then magic"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2733.62,"endTime":2738.18,"body":"can happen. Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2738.18,"endTime":2742.04,"body":"listening today. Today,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2738.18,"endTime":2742.04,"body":"scrum.org, community podcast."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2742.76,"endTime":2745.58,"body":"Hopefully you liked what you"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2742.76,"endTime":2745.58,"body":"heard. I certainly learned a few"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2745.58,"endTime":2749.54,"body":"things. Please subscribe, share"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2745.58,"endTime":2749.54,"body":"with friends, and, of course,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2749.54,"endTime":2752.9,"body":"come back and listen to some"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2749.54,"endTime":2752.9,"body":"more. I'm a very lucky man,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2752.9,"endTime":2755.6,"body":"because I get a variety of"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2752.9,"endTime":2755.6,"body":"guests to talk to about"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2755.6,"endTime":2758.3,"body":"everything in the area,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2755.6,"endTime":2758.3,"body":"professional Scrum, product"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2758.3,"endTime":2762.04,"body":"thinking. And, of course, agile."},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2758.3,"endTime":2762.04,"body":"Thank you, everybody. Scrummar,"},{"speaker":"Dave West","startTime":2762.04,"endTime":2762.16,"body":"you."}]}