The State of Golf Instruction with Brian

Welcome to the Athletic Motion Golf Podcast with your hosts, Mike Granato and Sean Webb, co-founders of Athletic Motion Golf. In this special episode, we’re thrilled to have our first-ever guest, Brian Manziella—one of Golf Digest’s Top 50 and Golf Magazine’s Top 100 Instructors. Brian has been a leading voice in golf instruction, and today, he joins us to talk about the past, present, and future of teaching the game.

We cover a range of topics, including how data-driven insights, advanced technology, and changing trends are transforming the way golf is taught and played. Brian shares his thoughts on the major shifts in golf instruction over the last decade, the influence of social media, and how new measurement tools are redefining what’s possible on the course. We also look deeper into how these innovations shape the next generation of players and coaches and what we can expect from golf in the next 10 years! 

Transcript

Welcome to the athletic motion golf podcast, where your host, Mike Granato and Sean Webb co founders of athletic motion golf. This podcast centers around one thing, helping you play your best golf. We do that by bringing a fact based approach to the topics and issues golfers face when they go out to play, practice, and try to improve.

Today's episode is brought to you by The Matrix. If you've ever wanted a step by step practice plan to improve your golf swing and lower your scores, The Matrix is it. With a detailed lesson program, a forum to share your swings, with live lessons and new instruction added each month, The matrix has it all in more.

Find out if the matrix is right for you. Just go to athletic motion, golf. com and tap on the matrix at the top of the page.  Now let's get into the episode. 

All right. So we've got a special guests, our first ever guest on the podcast and the re, uh, re ignition of the podcast and the reignition of the podcast. We've been, we've. Had a lot going on the last year.  Uh, we get, Sean and I get asked this question a lot during our golf schools is like, how did we meet? 

And we met because of our guests. Yeah. Right. Uh, Brian Manziella, golf digest, top 50, golf magazine, top 100. One of the best instructors that we certainly know and have known Brian for a while,  he's in town today for a section event was the keynote speaker.  And we figured no better time now than to have our first guest of the podcast, someone who was  responsible for there even being an AMG.

So we wanted to welcome Brian Manziela to the podcast. Hey, hey, hey, hey.  Two of my favorite people in the whole world right here, my buddies. I even feel like  I had something to do with the name, you know, that was like the thing that I had noticed a couple times that  When there was a group of guys that broke way, way up. 

Yeah. But you said to call it the fat man and the little guy.  It  was never been, you know, as, as premium as AMG. I said, the only thing that this group has in common, cause it really was a lot of people in the group, too many,  too many, you know, guys in a group, it's not good. And, uh, everybody was a jock.  So I think that's how everybody found me because I was the only person on the internet.

You know, when I had my web forum that was talking about the golf swing in some sort of a way that at least made sense to you if you haven't played another sport in your life because that was the height of the shrinking golf swing. If you can remember, let's let's put  these under the arms, not lift the arms of the backswing and not shift the weight.

And and it was like, no, I'm not down with that. You know, David times. It's a pretty good. They were making fun of him. There was a teacher, I don't want to use any names. He's now a famous tour instructor.  And he was like, it was interesting in the eighties, you know,  David was making money long after the eighties.

So, um, but you know, the good part about the, you know, the group that's not a group anymore is the people who stuck around and are still friends. Uh, you know, it's obviously, uh, to me, the, the cream of the crop, uh, In, in the business that's not affiliated,  uh, with each other for any other reason, other than more or less a shared desire to get to the bottom of how this actually frigging works, right? 

Yeah. Just the passion to learn about the golf swing and everybody still plays and everybody still plays. Even, even Jacobs, who doesn't say he likes golf and all that stuff, likes to play. If he's, you know, he's with the people he wants to play with and all that. And if you don't, your teacher. And you don't play golf anymore.

You don't at least work on hitting the ball. You're a supreme disadvantage to the people who do nothing.  That's a good starting point for hopping into this podcast, is Sean and I both went to Long Island to buy  the 3D system. With Rob Neal, I think. Yeah. Rob Neal and we wind up not getting it, but that kind of started really, I mean, certainly for myself and I believe Sean too,  we've had, you know, cave S before that, but that was really kind of the start of us wanting to go as deep as could be measured  and that's continued up till now.

So let's kind of talk about a little brief,  you know, last eight to 10 years of instruction and then what you think the next eight and 10 years are going to be like?  Well, from my standpoint, you know,  November 2014,  somebody posted on the internet that they needed an Alpha, Beta, Gamma intervention.  And for about five seconds before that,  there was actually like a couple of threads that people were being nice to each other in a business where, you know.

It's competition like every business. It's competition and a lot of contentious debate and back, behind your back stuff. Like, like, I'm sure the car business and, uh, movie business and, uh, somebody decided they need to play referee and, and, and, and this whole alpha war thing started. And if you think about it, it put a line, whether you were friends of mine, like you two guys are, or just somebody who was at this seminar we did today, right? 

If you were in the know, you were on one side of that divide or the other.  And because of the divide, there's been divides before. Once upon a time,  you know, the divides back, I mean, I'm talking like, you know, before the British open was a tournament, you know, the clubs, Musselburgh and Edinburgh and St.

Andrews, they all had their own swing  and they fought over it. Like it was going out of style, right? There's all my God, you know, you don't, you don't have the real swing. This is the real swing. And then, and then  the, the, the pros in the UK. Played with a different ball, the 1. 62 and we were playing with 1.

68 and nobody was going to seminars in both. Did you ever, did you ever hit one of those? Yes. I played a lot with 1. 62 is when I started playing because they were readily available at city park or any place else. And you know, when I started playing golf, my dad would pay Mr. Blackie, whose son, the Roach, he had the Roach and the weasel.

No, the reason the Roach didn't. The roach didn't die of balls. The weasel died. The Blackie sons were the roach and the weasel 

Anyway, one of them doled for balls and my dad would pay it a dime a ball and buy like a hundred balls.  What was your preference between the two?  Well, the balls that I got to play with that were British sized balls were not as good a quality Yeah. As the American balls that, that, that came up in the thing.

But they went different. They went straighter. They were easier to putt with.  The hole was bigger. If you have a shot with a WNBA ball, and listen, women's basketball is better than it's ever been to watch. No doubt about it. But, I don't know, if you haven't played any ball, we got a big mic over here, some basketball players.

You shoot that ball, you can do two things you can't do with a, with a, with a men's ball. You can make it. Shots from all over the court because it's lighter, but because it's smaller and the goal doesn't change, it's easier to make it.  And so you putt it better with the little ball and you, and you, and you, they went straighter.

That was it. Now, everybody talks about, oh, in the wind they were better, I didn't play in that kind of conditions. But, so that was a divide, right? The, the, the European, not the European at that point, but the UK pros had their own instruction ideas, and John Jacobs was king, and we had, you know, Bob Tosky, and And, and the early, you know, Gulf Digest schools and stuff like that.

So this divide happened before. And then when the teaching summit started in 1988, but people don't understand about the PGA teaching and coaching summit, not that not only was it finally a place where you could go and hear more than one person talk, but a lot of people came from overseas.  So then you, you, you wound up with a little more homogenization and then the early internet probably did that too. 

Not a little, the little alpha war that you got on one side or the other and, and, and because of that, the heck with the alpha war when it comes to that part of it, but  people who would have normally communicated with each other and then information would have been shared,  stopped happening. So they went up completely different roads. 

I think almost, I don't want to say they went, I don't want to say they went backwards like they got worse at teaching. I'm not trying to be a, a jerk about it. I'm saying  they're more Moran influenced now than they were. Because if you don't have the, be banging the gong against everything that I thought, I'm not saying Moran was bad, because there's a lot of good McElgrady stuff for sure.

Should be in every golf teaching hall of fame. But, I'm just saying,  I'm not saying I was the ringleader, but I was definitely the loudest voice. And when I wasn't a certain group of people's loudest voice, you had people who  had different 3D systems, right? Like Johnson Clare, he's on the other side, right?

And, and they, they went up this road with their own scientists, and their own everything. So that, that separated instruction a lot. Look what you guys did. You guys said, okay, we're gonna take this GEARS data.  And we're gonna see, like, you know, like, not real complicated stuff, just, hey, what is this tour player actually doing, right?

Is their hips, are their hips open, are they closed, or, where's the club at the top, where, how much, you know, like the lay down move, are people externally rotating, I can think of a million great videos y'all both have done, and, and, and they were, nothing was complicated, but it was like, hey. There's a lot of talk out there about this, that, and the other thing.

Here's what we've, we've got a bunch of tour players. Nobody does that or they do it very, very right. So, um, and then, and then obviously me and Mike were Jacob's three D like, okay, Oh shoot, you can handle drag too much. Well, you know, I kept my forum up except for the 10, 000 posts that I took down when Lynn Blake wanted to sue me,  which is a joke in itself, but.

But, you know, I hope Lynn's doing well. We we're fine. We're we're, we're on fine terms, but  that whole forum is still up. You can go back. I was calling it Handle Dragon before  there was any science, because I knew from teaching and myself overdoing it, that you could handle Dragon well, now we, we can quantify it.

We had a slide today that we, we talked about it and, and I think the whole, you know, that release thread was the, like the height of the forum.  Where all of a sudden, oh, you wasn't trying to, like, maximum lag it and maximum lean it. So we've had our influence on that between us and you guys. I don't think either group, the AMG group or the Jacobs 3D group, likes people leaning to the right at the top.

We gotta give Plummer and Bennett some credit for that. Cause, you know, center's more, but now people know what that really is. It's really, it's more of a torso lean thing. We still all like shifting to the right some amount on the backswing. So,  the overall, I think, current state is this. No matter which one of those camps you're in or no camp,  this, you can, you can go on the internet right now as a three handicapper who can easily pass the PGA playing ability test, that I think is too easy,  and say, you know what I want to do?

Once I get in, I want to be a teacher. And you could just mouse your way through the internet and know way more than any of us knew 20 years ago. Yeah. Right? Oh yeah. And, and, and, and that, so that's where it is right now. That's why you're looking at  the kids coming out on both the ladies tour and the men's tour. 

And, you know, Liv and all that. You're seeing like  modern, the modern golf swing. What's the modern golf swing? You have to come up with something that you can have 180 ball speed with a driver or else. You better be able to putt better than Brian Gay and David Thomas put together and chip like seven. If you've got 165 balls, but you ain't playing on any tour.

And, and, and, whatever influences out there, there's a lot, like, Grips went stronger now, they've kind of gone weaker because, you know, a lot of people are teaching archerists, but that's kind of starting to, you're seeing A Berg now, stronger grip, with more of a neutral club face. I think what you're, what you're seeing right now, like, he, he would be the good, like, this is what  anybody in the know would say, this is the way you should swing at it now, right?

I mean, like, unless you know of somebody like, you know, uh, Chen, you know, Jacob's a student that has his real vanilla. That's, you know, the, the, the players that everybody that uses players for models are using for models look totally different than when you guys were up there looking at that 3D system and met each other, right?

So, that's, now, the thing is, Golf changed a bunch too. So now what is going to happen here in the next, to me, what's going to happen in the next 10 to 20 years, because  AI, right, I mean, you could probably put somebody to figure out like how to put this whole database  in, in some kind of machine learning and, and. 

You would have videos for the next 10 years  of stuff that you never noticed. And you noticed a lot. Yeah, it's,  you know, I feel like, you know, over the last 10 years, there's been  a wave of innovation and progress in the equipment,  a wave and innovation in the tools of measure, the golf swing,  a wave in what Jacobs has done and you guys have done is measure the invisible. 

Of the golf swing. What Sean and I have done is quantifying the visible is look at the visible. And then there's a whole nother wave of,  this is what  I call it. Woke teaching. This is what I feel in the golf swing. And it kind of goes against almost all of the other stuff. And like, there's  whatever your fancy is, you've had a path to go down and then you add social media, the wave of social media.

And now that everybody's got a really good camera in their pocket, it's like all that was going on at the same time. All, all of it was going on. And It was like, whatever you're poising, you could get it. Yeah, yeah. And all of a sudden, you had to have 180 balls. Yeah, exactly. Like, while all that was going on.

Oh, and the athletes got better at the same time. Yeah.  The tiger effect, right? Stronger, faster. I remember when, when, uh, when Speed  and Justin Thomas How old are they? 32? Probably ish, yeah. Okay. So what year were they born? I'm not that great at  Right? Eight, eight, eight more than 2, 000. Eight less than 2, 000.

Okay, so they were born before Tiger's 97 Masters. And I remember when they first got going, they went, these are the Tiger babies. I went, no, no, the Tiger babies were either born after Tiger  1 by 15 in the U. S. Open, and I, you know, all of that stuff. It's, it's the kids that are, that really, like, were born in, like, 2000. 

What do you think about the kids who have only seen on TV guys that have 180 ball speed?  They've never seen another way to play golf.  Well,  put it to you this way. David Thomas is what, 56? 57? Right in there, yep. Okay. He played with Persimmon.  Okay. So Justin Thomas first  Adult driver was probably a tailor made R5. 

Yeah. Yeah. You didn't have to have to bunt it out there at all. Just take a rip on it. So, so, so, that means,  just think about the first driver that Olberg got.  Just mash it. It was like a driver you would play with. You wouldn't play with an R5 right now. Like a slider or something like that. But he was playing with a driver.

A good driver. When he was 12 years old, that's what, he's 22? Yeah. 23? A good driver. He was playing with a driver that  maybe somebody, you know, there's a club champions play with. And so  I told everybody, I said, that that's a whole different ball of wax. Also track man, about 15 years old. Yeah. Track man. So you were 10 years old.

You're 25 now. You were eight years old. You're 23. You had your whole golfing career. You never took a golf lesson, potentially.  Your whole life, including the first one.  And didn't know you swung 10 to the right or 16 to the left. What a game changer. Or 4 to the right or 4 to the left. Not one day did you not know your angle of attack was slightly up with a 7 iron, which probably ain't gonna play on any tour.

Or 14 degrees down with a, with a pitching wedge, which is what Jacob was the first time he ever hit a ball on trackman. Oh. 14 down, smooth,  with a full pitching wedge at James Leiser's place, before I had trackman. So that's 13 years.  So. You put all that together and you have the current guys that are, like, splashing now. 

I think there's going to be a gigantic change in the next 10 years. I really do. I think that With what regard? I think what's being taught in a, in a, in a,  I wouldn't want to call it generic lesson, right?  A,  an average high end lesson,  let's call it that.  There's, there's, uh, 68 million. I just heard this the other day, 68 million golfers in the world,  but they played one time all year, but 68 million golfers in the world.

It means there's about 68, 000 golf teachers,  which means there's 6, 800 decent golf teachers, decent, didn't say good.  And there's 680 good. Didn't say great. It's probably 68. Great  numbers in any, in any, in any field.  So that means of those 680, you need a pretty decent golf lesson. Somebody's not going to tell you, you know, the world is flat or whatever, right?

They're going to have something to measure the club with, and they might have something to measure the body with. They might have force plates or something like it.  Whatever that lesson, whatever that baseline is now, and whatever is being taught in that lesson, I think I can take a stab at it, and y'all can certainly do it just as good as me. 

That 10 years from now, I, I, I see it being drastically different because I think there's going to be innovation that we're not even really thinking about yet. That's, that's just gonna, that's just gonna happen. And  the potential ball change and the whole tour thing, that, that, that is not a non factor.

That's a factor, right? Whether or not they do the ball change or not, whether or not they do a corresponding driver size change, all the tour players that we mess with. All say the driver is going to get smaller for the elite. So there's going to be a beautification.  Is that the, with, with, with driver size, but not  anything else to do with equipment.

I think that's  just personally, just want to say everybody listening, I'm Ted against all of that, but it's a factor that these things are going on. And people just never saw the last wave come, the one that Mike just perfectly described.  They're probably  not going to see this one. I think I kind of have an idea, you know, I have a personal idea.

I'd love to hear what y'all have to say, of what the swing will do from here.  Because it's, it, it, the, the instruction,  sometimes, The instruction drives what everybody's doing, swing wise. And sometimes the game,  right? Like, uh, uh, uh,  Brad, Brad Bryant today talked about Trevino. He said that's why Trevino developed this game.

Because he was trying to find a way to curve it one way or the other in play. And he couldn't curve it right to left in play.  And, you know, he was a spinner, a ball, he could spin anything. He said he saw me chip seven irons out of a driving range and spin the ball. So, he had to hit the ball low. If you were trying to hit a low fade, I don't think you would do anything that different than Trevino.

But maybe you would with different equipment right now. But I see, I see something coming that I'm not sure that golf is quite, you know, ready for. You know, like as far as scoring and what they're going to have to do. The fascination with these. These ruling bodies that are very out of touch, I think, with the people that we deal with.

Which, you're not taking a lesson from any of the three of us for the price we are now. And not serious golfers.  I would say, of my 50  serious golfers,  48 of them have a 5, 000 set of clubs at least.  Fitted,  and half of them with me in the room to make sure the fit went good. Right. Right. And, um,  it's nothing now for I got, I got, I got 35 year old guys that started playing golf in COVID that have 170 balls. 

So what are you going to do? How are you going to beat these people? How are you going to, what are they going to do? They, they, they, they seem to be scared at rough,  right? The U S open was a joke. Bryce Bryson. I'm glad he won. I'm not against Bryce, but he hit the ball in the rough a million times. He had a perfectly clear shot.

I went to the club a couple of weeks ago to work with my boy, Nick.  Every time I hit it in the rough, I needed help to find it.  You know, so, I mean, what are they going to do to artificially keep the scores down, and how are the swings going to evolve, and then what's going to happen to the teaching? I think the, I think the baseline level of teaching is still, overall, is really bad, still.

I think that's the number one problem, solvable problem in golf, is You should be able to get a better lesson  for a hundred dollars an hour than you do now. Yeah, but there's just no, anybody could put up a shingle that says golf teachers is half the problem with it,  but it's fixable. It's a fix. It's a fix.

Who fixes it?  I don't, I don't think any of the current,  like nobody saw it. Nobody. Do you know who fixes it? The guy getting the lesson? Yeah. The guy  that's, that's who fixes it now. That's who puts us outta business. That's who puts.  Uh,  best buy out of business that, but  don't know any better. The offers don't know any better sometimes, but I think that's where the,  I'm thankful for YouTube, Instagram to some extent, where you almost get to test drive  what someone teaches  and there's no doubt about it.

I heard Ruggiero saying, he puts up lessons. I think he's telling 'em about tour player left.  I want some people to put up some lessons. Like that one I gave today, that poor guy started shaking. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you have to, that's a real lesson. You gotta be able to do that. And I think. I think this is going to happen and I think people are going to start to like, I see maybe potentially a whole nother organization that doesn't exist right now.

I'm thinking the same thing. Going straight teaching golf, golf improvement organization, a worldwide, you know, because  I love being a PGA member, you know, you are too. Yeah, I love it. But, but, but, but.  It's not teacher centric. And if you're a teacher, and you're making a living doing it, the only reason you would do it right now is if you thought it was going to help your teaching a bunch, which I don't even think the PGA themselves, the PGA of America, for the people who don't know the difference, not the tour, totally separate.

Organization  would say, no, no, that's not really what we're kind of designed for, but okay. But there's a need, right? Because there's all these people playing golf and the baseline instruction is still, it's so much easier to show somebody what to teach now.  Just imagine the people who came to the seminar today.

Yeah. They got to come in here and see you and Mike go through gears in a lesson. They got to see Mike show club fitting with using gears. They got to see me running around like a man with my head cut off, showing, really, just historic golf swings, blowing up half of Instagram in a million little pieces.

They got to see one of the best putting teachers in the world, Mike Shannon. Great presentation. Brad Bryant,  multiple tour winners, saying what you ought to do in a lesson to make people, like, maximize their game. You got all of this in one spot. Shoot. You, you did this, you couldn't, there wasn't no seminars like this 10 years ago.

This is a great seminar. So I think there's hope, but I think it's going to change. I see, I see  somebody coming along at the tour level that  sort of does to the golf swing, let's let's say what, what, what Nicholas or Trevino, like, I don't say Trevino had that much influence then he might have more influence now, but Like, there's a different way to play with these, these, these clubs and balls, like you can hit, you, you can play good, what, what, I think Mike was talking about before, the angle of attack stuff  on, on tour, the best 10 ball strikers, was that you telling me that?

Was  like, way more down than you think it is. The, the, the shallowest was 7. Because, because you can get equipment now. Yeah. And balls. Launches it up there. Yeah. Yeah.  Those three Titleist balls, I'm not Titleist, I know you're all Titleist guys,  I'm not Titleist guys. Tread, tread lightly. Those, those, hey man, no, no.

Just sign a deal, hey.  Don't talk about the number one ball in golf. I've hit, I've hit five million balls in my simulator with those RCTs. Those are great, that's one of the greatest product, collaborative, I just showed you. Great, great. It was a need, the stickers drove me crazy, and I couldn't have been the only person.

Bye.  It's, it's, it's, it's helped club feeding. It's helped golf instruction just because a company like Taylor's, a great, their ball department, anybody says anything bad about it, they're just stupid. And TrackMan a great company with a great product, got together and filled the need. I, I see that happening more.

Well, 10, 10 years ago,  would you have been convinced they'd be playing for $20 million  a week? No. And that there would be no, no time with Tiger or not part of, and that there would be another major professional tour siphoning best players off. I, I might have bought the, the, I thought the PI still think it's  still an unserved  audience.

Right. And the proof of that is  the YouTube channels who are just really playing golf. That's it. That's it. They're not competing with you guys. No. Or me. You're just playing golf. Or Michael Jacobs saying we got information, you listen. They're playing golf and they're, and it's fun. Like, you know, I play with this little group of guys that mostly I grew up with, but some to their kids and stuff are in it.

The Nunez Tour, you know.  If you videoed that,  there would be a lot of people that would learn to start playing golf just because they watch it. Well, these guys aren't all hitting the ball 500 yards and then not all playing with 5, 000 sets of clubs. It  looks like those guys  and wait, they're playing at six in the morning.

You mean you can play golf at six in the morning? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. They're not some country club. You, they just want your money for a green thing. So  what does that say? If, if the Dunez tour could get views. And Fat Perez is famous. What does that say? That what you're turning on the TV to watch  is not worth a damn. 

And, and that's fixable. NFL is not that much better.  One day these, these sports  organizations are going to realize, you know what we ought to do?  Let's not fight City Hall. If AMG wants to do the Pulong We Need Her Open commentary, all of it,  you got to play their commercials. Let them do it. They're going to tell you, 30 seconds, Mike.

30 seconds, Mike. You know, in your little, in your little earpiece.  Y'all can say whatever y'all want.  Just have to show the feed that they're showing. Here's the footage.  I know this is easily done, because  when I was in Louisville,  we worked for a guy named Sang Kim, and his, his, I think it was his nephew or his whatever, uh, but relative, Jay Kim, was like the Ken Venturi of like Korea for a while, and it was all American feed, they just talked over the American feed, right?

And if they, if these companies,  sports organizations, allowed this to happen. You would fix this viewership problem. Like nobody watched this last tour event. I can't even remember one, but it was like somebody good who won this last tour. Eck  Aki Eck A Mil. Look, there's only 3 million people watching a regular tour event if it's popular down a million.

Now, when you only got 3.3 watching and you're down a million, that's a ton, man. So, I guarantee you, there's some people, you guys and me would do it, all those YouTube, you know, uh,  Mark Crosby, all those different people.  It's an unserved market. We want to watch the best players in the world, but this drivel,  you could fake people with this stuff they say, when you couldn't get on YouTube and learn that the stuff they're saying is like, wait,  this is not true. 

You know,  say whatever you want about John Gruden, but when he was doing Monday Night Football,  if you were to search the world over  to find a guy who could do that job better than him,  you could not have done it.  Not only does he know as much as anybody else you could have found, technically,  but he was good at presenting it.

He didn't suck.  You cannot say that about anybody on TV golf. Well, you've got with other sports, you know, you've got league passes. You've got  25, 30 games. So you've got more voices covering the games with golf. You've got that one tournament.  The one, the one voice. And every time Patty's in the, every time Patty's in the lead, you got to listen to Lanny Watkins.

No offense to Lanny, but  I don't want to listen to Lanny Watkins. Let's talk about anything.  He can't even do voice inflection good. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's not  that. So that's one thing that can, that, that, that, that somebody's going to do that. And if it ain't tour events, they're going to cover regular guys playing.

Cause that's what they're doing now. Yeah. That's the first thing.  The golf channel  has anything in the history of our lives that have to do something with our live and livelihood and careers  been less relevant.  You got this little bitty niche sport.  And you've got this network in the biggest country that plays golf,  you know, the most people who play golf. 

Nobody comes in talking about anything they heard on the golf channel in a lesson. Well, you did when it was the only way to see someone give a lesson. Or to see someone, you know, dispel information. There's no gatekeeper anymore. They were the gatekeeper. There is not anymore.  And so when. When more people watch  content on different devices in their big TV, in their projection TV, if they got that in their game room or something,  that's coming from folks like you guys, and not from this ridiculous stuff they say on TV when they show a swing sequence.

Like, shut up already. I mean, everything you're saying is wrong. Don't talk. Just say, let's look at the swing of Lucas Oberg from a bunch of different angles, and we're going to play a nice little musical interlude. That would be better than them saying, Ooh, look at his big shoulder turn. Is anybody playing golf that can swing 120 miles an hour and doesn't have a shoulder turn?

Or has lag? Or look at that impact position? I mean, come on man. That's 30 year old information. Let's see somebody talk about it.  You know, like I, I, I like how one of the networks is, you got Nick Clearwater and he's doing some of that. Yeah. That, that stuff that, that kind of 3D is getting better every day.

Yeah. It's never gonna replace optical in, in, probably in this next 10 years. Optical is just too accurate, sees too much. People have no idea that when you got a, when you got 10 or 12 cameras at three, 400 frames a second.  And it's got one marker that is being shot from all these ten different angles. The measurements are in the  tenth of a millimeter.

Like a hair. The tenth of a millimeter. There's no way that Thad Perez playing Saint Andrews in  a lot of clothing is going to have accurate 3D from one telephone. But maybe there'll be devices. that do real 3D LiDAR from maybe two angles and maybe they won't need markers. I can see that coming, but I think basically that there's, it's just too much technology and too many different ways to get the message out for the current state of affairs to be the same.

And because the game is about to totally change at the tour level, you're talking about completely different You're going to have a completely different top 10 players in the world here, Bob.  Well, the players are always driving instruction.  Because they're  the ones that the weekend golfer's going to watch, hold the trophy, then go try his move,  and Try to copy John Daly one time.

And nobody's holding trophies that are slow anymore.  No, those days are over with. And also, you don't see any shrunken swing. No. I mean, everybody says, well, John Rahm's swing is not that long. Yeah, you ever seen John Rahm impression? I have never seen a human being that was built like that. Rip your hat off.

He's a brute. He is a, he is a one of one  descendant, probably,  of a different generation somehow, that can pull that off. But, I mean, you can make the point,  his game, I don't think it has anything to do with Lip. He's just not playing as good as he played a couple years ago. And there's a lot of people like that.

Which is the history of golf.  That happens to everyone. Hard to stay on a heater for too long. Not only that, not only  did you, you know, when you had the good runs before, right? When somebody won four tournaments in two years, right? I think Wayne Levy won five of them.  I don't know how much money he won, but it wasn't that much.

You win five tournaments in a year now, man. You're great grandkids on that. You're done. You're done.  Right?  I mean, uh, uh, uh, you know, when Liv is putting 40 in your hand and your name recognition on the first tee at Pebble Beach is less than Sean Webb. Yeah, seriously. Which they did that now with a couple people, right?

They know less people know who that, we'll leave, we'll leave the names out, than know who you are or Mike or me. Yeah. Right? Then that's not,  that person does that. Have the same motivation as the person whose wife's telling them you're gonna start making some money Or we're gonna do something else right because that's what  happens, right?

So do you see the  the count there's kind of a Two paths with instruction now, there's two general groups measured  fact based  Feel this is what I want to see. This is what I think should happen in the golf swing Do you see those two merging closer together or keep going farther apart as more is measured?

You  I have, I've had this conversation with, I know Sean, probably Mike at some point, definitely Jacobs  and  40 other people, including the wall that I talked to yesterday,  that of all the things that I've ever been involved in in my life, cause you know, I mean, I, I was in music, right? I played football, you know, uh, and, and, and I've done the golf thing.

I've never seen anything  that's less covered  than golf instruction.  Less what? Covered. There's no coverage. I got you. Right? There's no coverage. There's, there's articles in magazines, and there's all these channels, like your channel, and you know, and stuff I do on social media. No, no, no, I'm not talking about that.

That's not coverage. Coverage is, okay, let's do a story on how the AMG guys got into golf. How can, there's been no story that I know of that's ever been done by y'all by a major golf media. Uh uh. Major golf media is hanging by a thread.  They're balancing on the head of a thimble right now. About to just fall completely off.

Yeah, but they're doing what the other major news outlets are doing. I understand that. The other major news outlets are in jeopardy too. I'm just saying, I don't That's what I'm saying. I don't think it's nearly a  necessity anymore. Sean and I can tell our own stories. If somebody can be one of the most popular people on the internet  doing questionable reviews of pizza  Mm hmm. 

Somebody can have a channel where  somebody can have a channel,  if not  something bigger than a channel, covering golf instruction.  The fact that most people have no idea how anybody on tour who's teaching a tour player wound up on tour. Yeah, sure, some people wound up on tour.  The same way Sean was working with Doug Bown, right?

How did Doug meet you?  He was a referral. He wasn't playing good with another teacher, and the teacher sent him to me. He said, man, Doug basically said, who do you think I should go see? And I'm not even friends with this other teacher, oddly enough. But he liked your stuff? Yeah, it was fine. I have no problem with him.

Right, so it's a referral, right? That's a pretty normal way. But what I'm saying is, they got guys who were teaching on tour. Right. Who would never popular teachers for five minutes in their own  place where they started teaching?  They just wound up on tour and i'm not saying that makes them less of a teacher than no, but the The tour guys are like everybody else.

They're they're struggling. They're on internet in the hotel room. Yep looking at golf tips There's no doubt about it. And but but what I think is interesting about it is that  if you put a if you Shined a nice little light on tour instruction. It would change tomorrow  Yeah, it's uh,  I think it's in an all time worst.

I think McElroy is a perfect example McElroy would love to overhaul his swing. I've Yeah, but that's not yeah, but so you gotta realize no idea where to go, right?  Ain't calling any of us in this room. Well tomorrow like so that's not  again, it goes back to the They're the customer they're deciding who they work with.

Absolutely  They just don't know where to look. And why don't they know where to look? Construction isn't covered. They do. But there's, you know, the tour is a very tight click  and you know, we've all been out there. It's not interesting to me to be out there. I don't think Sean is the travels not fond,  but they know  where to go,  whether or not they will do it. 

I don't know. I don't know that they know. But I mean, I'm with you. I mean, look what, look what Hovland's done.  Yeah, yeah. But, you know, he's a, he's a, he's a He's a different guy, but I think you'll see more of that. Oh, I don't, I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any doubt about that. But, but at the end of the day,  those guys drive  who people think know something.

Oh, of course. Absolutely. And, I said this today and, and, and, and, to a couple people. There are probably 25 guys on tour who go to 20 or 25 tournaments a year, and I know every single one of them some.  No way. That's the 25 best teachers in America. No chance. I'd say five of 'em are in the top 25. Five of the 25 are in the top.

25. That's it. That's all I would say. I'm not gonna say anything else about the rest of 'em. I'm just saying.  I'm pretty sure that it's not that bad in basketball or football or baseball. I don't think that that's even possible in any other sport. Because it's much more merit based and you have so many more chances.

And they're team, they're team sports, they're not individual sports. And I think that if you had better instruction at the tour level overall, I'm not talking about anybody  individually, that that would trickle down to the masses and influence. The next generation, not this generation I think that's coming.

What I'm talking about this, you know, in this pod, of this generation that's coming. They're already coming. They already have teachers. They already can shoot 65 anyplace. Nobody's heard of them. They're maybe not on any tour right now. And when I'm telling you they're coming, they're gonna blow these course records up.

And the USGA's all gonna be sitting there going, What do we do now? Do we even do the ball thing? I mean, it's like At some point you just can't, you can't hold back that much progress. I mean, if you had, if you had the ability, you know, from, uh, if any of us could go back in a time machine right now to when we were 10 years old and take a track, man, and one of these iPhones with 240 frames a second and nothing else,  I think you're looking at three guys that at least would have played on a corn ferry tour.

Yeah, no, no. I mean, I was just.  And we didn't, the three of us didn't get anywhere near. But, but, but, but, but, but,  so, so, then take that same thing and say, Not just a phone and a track man. Gears. But optical 3D and kinetic software and the experience of, of a good teacher. And, and, and never getting that far off.

Having stuff that you can go back and look at and go, You see? Look at what you used to do. Like, we're looking at a before and after of the screen, no names. Right? I mean, like, you can see the big improvement that was made in this golfer. If that golfer goes bad, you can go back and put them over the top of each other and go, Right?

You got, Here's your swing blueprint. That was talked, talked about. 20 years ago, there was no real way to do it. No, you got a VHS recording you're trying to compare with your iPhone footage. You didn't know where anybody's center of mass was.  You couldn't say something like, you know,  Patty Harrington's center of mass is 7 inches further forward than the driver that it was pre Jacobs.

You couldn't say that. But, the coverage thing, I'm still, I'm gonna go down with that ship. I'm the person who broke the story. I mean, I'm the person that broke the story that Michael Jacobs was teaching Patti Arnott. Uh, I had a vested interest in doing that.  Should I be the person that breaks the story?

It was well known by several outlets.  I know my stuff isn't done. Nobody, look, first of all, a lot of those people in golf media are friends of mine. They're trying to save their job this week. Right, they have a vested interest in what they're doing, you have a vested interest in what you're doing. Yeah, but my job ain't going nowhere.

I could move to Sri Lanka and be a successful teacher, I know how to make people hit the ball better. Their jobs exist now, they might not exist in three years. So they're, and then the other thing is, is that at the end of the day, you know, life is hard, I'm not saying this is hard compared to life in the depression, I'm just saying, You know, everybody's got their own, you know, life that they have to deal with, and nobody really wants phone calls. 

Why did you do a story on those AMG guys?  Ain't they have enough stuff out there on social media? You're a traditional golf media outlet. Why would you do a story on those? You know and I know that the media would get Whether, whether, whatever traditional golf media is, if they did an exposé on y'all, a nice little four page story, which y'all have easily earned in my opinion, selfish or not, 

they would get phone calls. Whoever published the story would get phone calls from people who would wish they didn't do that. But if they don't, if they don't, then it's why don't, why aren't you using AMG? They're going to get phone calls regardless. Well, no, you don't get as many of those phone calls, but the day is coming.

In other words, like I think this whole thing is going to be way more upside down. I think that the customers are going to have more power than the, that's a hundred percent. Yeah. And, and, and, and they, they, look a man, everybody looks at stuff. I teach a lady who is.  I don't wanna guess her age, but she's got to be at least 10 years older than me.

So let's just say I'm 62. Let's say she's 72. mm-Hmm.  . I,  I, I've given her 15 lessons, so I kind of know what she was taught before. She was probably taught by some pretty good teachers. 'cause she over does some stuff that are very popular to do. I don't think she should do 'em, but. She said I saw this on Instagram when I was in the, you know, I was getting my hair done yesterday.

I'm thinking to myself, what? But it's happening, right? Well, I feel like we're about halfway through the, the flip in the hourglass over to who has the power, the power, a hundred percent, rightfully so, a hundred percent. And I'm telling you, you shouldn't have to wait on an article to be written about you for people to know about you. 

Exactly.  Right. You can do your own article, but, but, but it just, it's, it's, this is what it's done. What that has done is delayed everything. Right. It's just like, you know, well, you're, you're, you're coming from, I mean, you're old as dirt.  Yeah. I mean, if you do something before, no, but you're coming when you were coming up and,  Honing your craft and getting your skills and making your name, you couldn't have hopped on, I mean you had one of the first internet forums  ever,  but if you started today  and were really good in ten years, everybody would know who you were.

Oh yeah, no, no, totally. So you, it's like your, your careers lived through the, the flipping of something. Let me tell you, I remember.  Sitting in  Don Pablo's  Mexican restaurant on International Drive. Eatin here before. With two cats that I knew,  who wanted me to succeed. And I was,  that's probably the closest that I ever came to quitting. 

At that point. What year was this? Right around 2000. I was like,  This is just not working out. I can't get anybody to write a story about me. I can't sniff these stupid lists. The gatekeepers. I can't do anything. And I just gave the best single year of golf instruction anybody ever gave in the history of mankind, in my mind.

But look at that. 24 years later,  I could not have done any better. I was finally at a nice place.  I was teaching mostly Valhalla and, and, and, uh, uh, Lake Forest was another, you know, Arnold Palmer Club right there. High end people. I had all these junior golfers who were good. And it was like, but I'm not,  I'm not getting anywhere.

This is like, there's no way this thing that I just did this year, no matter how good those lessons were, compared to any other lessons that have ever been given on Earth. In a one year period of time at any facility ever created on the face of the earth.  That was not gonna get me anywhere. Literally, I wouldn't be doing this podcast.

Y'all wouldn't know each other. And I wouldn't know y'all either. That's where I was in 2000. It had nothing to do with how good I could teach. Now that's a shitty business right there. Let me just tell ya. There were plenty of people that knew I could teach good.  And they were doing everything they could to hold my ass down.

And then I got kicked off of a couple web forums for saying, of all things, the face is the place to look at when you're doing slice fixing. And I kind of argued my way off of a couple of them. And then  they used to hold the David thing against me. Well, if you were any good, David would still be working with you.

And then I gave him that million dollar lesson he wins at Wachovia. And all of a sudden,  I'm now on my own looking to start a web forum and because I started that web forum We're sitting here right now, right? I became The golf media. Yes for a while It was by far we had everybody on it Like we uh, there's no way like I could bind those email addresses I promise you that top 50 and the top 100 teachers right now I bet you 90 of them were on that forum not all of them, you know had their name You Right?

They might have had a burner account or they just had, you know, like, uh, you know, their wife's, uh, you know, and there's anniversary day and their, and their puppy dog's name, you know, Sambo, uh, three, five, seven. Right? Whatever. And, but what, what I did, you know, I had people telling me every time I would go to like a conference or something like that, you can't do what you're doing.

The golfing machine, when they bought, when they sold the golfing machine. Uh, Joe Daniels and Danny Elkins met with me and said, You're gonna have to tone your act down, you're hurtin us.  We've had  teachers tell us we're ruining golf by giving away stuff for free. 

But when you show somebody that tour players generally torso at the top is somewhere around 90 degrees in current golf, you know, high end golf, Versus what maybe somebody was popular for teaching 10 or 15 years ago, maybe leaning the other way. The point is,  how's that ruining Gulf?  That we, that we were giving it away.

Oh, giving it away. You're taking money.  That's what I charge for. You guys shouldn't be giving it away. There's never going to be  too many people  There's never going to be a, there's never going to be a situation, I don't even care when A. I. is doing a lot of lessons and they're trying to do it now. It's never going to replace, there's a person in front of you, they may have had a bad day at work.

Right. What if they start shanking the ball like this pro I gave this lesson to today, what the A. I. is going to say then? Get your hands closer to your body? No, I had to come up with something better than that. As much as I struggled for about five minutes to everybody's delight. Well you had to read him.

You're up. I had to read them. Yeah. First of all, I'm a hands on teacher, so I felt like this guy, the A. I. is not going to be able to figure that out. No. No. General suggestions. Maybe one day, maybe 20, 30, 40 years from now, but this next 10 years that we're talking about now, I just see,  I see three things. I see  the change in face of professional golf,  which is going to change a lot here in the next year.

Yep. Yep. Once Tiger decides they're paying them enough money. Uh huh. Okay. A. I. that's going to change the game.  Whatever they  goofy try to do with equipment or not, right, whether that bald driver change happens or not, that's going to shape what everybody's doing. And the third thing is the complete overhaul of the information system, which is  I'm with, I'm with Mike 100%, it's halfway, it's halfway there.

Just getting there. That those, those three things are, they're just, they're going to have too much of an influence on, on what's going on. And I think of all the things I've talked about in this thing, I know I talk a lot and I appreciate y'all having me on, but  I think all that needs to happen to quiet down these stupid bodies that think that they know more than everybody else about.

We got to make sure Burian's not going to be obsolete. And didn't they shoot one over the last time they played there? Anyway, the point of the matter is,  somebody just needs to obliterate a couple of records, and then they're going to give up. Somebody's going to shoot 60,  59  in two rounds of the U. S.

Open, or something like that, and win by 12. It's over, man. They're going to shoot 30 on the par or something, and that's it. Just let it. Nobody complain. No, does anybody come in here complaining about it? Oh, it's a tour event. Bryce just hits the ball too far. No, it's, no, they want to see it. When's the last news story you saw where someone broke the four minute mile? 

They didn't make the mile longer. 

If you can't  do a high length dunk, if you're a six foot guard, there is no pro league, there's no pro league you're ever going to get a seat. Yeah.  A highlight dunk, not a dunk. Ah, highlight. A poster, a poster. Right? If you can't  do a step back and probably travel when you do it, but if you can't do a James Harden step back, you ain't on a travel 12 year old team.

Oh. So, I mean, like, unless they change the rules, basketball is forever changed, mostly because just the natural things get better. And, and, uh, but here's an interesting thing,  on this subject.  I just spent two days with two tour players that, you know, they both won majors, and they both said that they thought, no names, the skill level on tour  was worse than at any time in their life. 

From the players? Yeah. Like, overall goal skill. Just hitting shots and, yeah. Yeah, what they're good at right now is smashing it  and pretty good short games.  So that, but doesn't that influence what we do? Yeah, but that, that's a hell of a skill. I didn't say it wasn't. No, what I'm saying is, like, what skill do you value more, shot shaping or smashing it?

No, but the point is, what's  that opening? The opening is for somebody who can smash it. That can do all the other stuff. That person's about to be the most famous person in golf.  Somebody is going to be like that. I remember when Nicklaus came along, and then he, you know, What did Nicklaus say? Palmer.

There's never going to be another Tiger. Come on now. Look, I like Tiger just fine.  He ain't the most charismatic human being I ever laid eyes on.  You know what I mean? I mean like somebody's gonna come along that's nice looking and says some interesting things in an interview that doesn't sound like a cartoon character and they're gonna be able to hit all the shots and I think, I think, you know, that can push golf over where it is right now which is really, really close to just being on TV unwatchable.

Which is a shame. I mean, The majors are the only thing that draws anything. Ten years from now, that's not going to be the case. The delivery system has to change. There's not enough eyeballs. So what's your,  what's your  number one prediction  for the next ten years?  What will change, you think will have the biggest impact of change for the next ten years?

We'll close with this.  The voices. that are being listened to at all level  will be people who are nowhere near the most listened to people.  This will be about training,  be about equipment,  and it'll be about instruction. Those voices will not be the current  people that have the most influence. It will be a completely different group of people and slash  the technology will be stuff either that exists, like Jacobs 3D exists, but it's a, it's a one place operation. 

Mike's not going to die that way at some point. You're going to have a probably thing you can stick on your golf club and torque is.  Too little or too, you know, like, so just imagine if everybody could just as easily have that app, uh, uh, you know,  optical can be done, I mean, there's things that can be done better with optical than it being done, so all this stuff, all this technology and machine learning is going to completely, everybody's going to look around and go,  Like, you, you can't really go any place and get a golf lesson now, a high end golf lesson without something like a track. 

Right? Not B track, man, but it would be something like a track, man. If I would have said that when I was jumping up and down saying, you're not giving a real lesson if you're not teaching. I was the person that jumped up and down and other people got credit. Y'all both know I was the person that said, no, no, no, no.

I've taught with it and I've taught without it. And you can't teach as good without it. Nope. Well, you go to a tour event now and everybody's got a box of some sort laid up on the range. And every high end golf place has that. I'm saying there's at least one, if not two things that do not exist now that are going to be in every high end teaching toolbox. 

Two things that don't exist now within 10 years. Well, when we first started building websites, you know, our websites, you know, you look at everybody's websites.  Technology then was video camera, like the technology I use, video camera.  Now, if you don't have a launch monitor,  and typically a quad or a trackman, that's kind of the barrier for entry now for technology. 

So, yeah, I think you're dead on there. What do you think, Sean?  Biggest prediction?  I mean,  I think when people take golf lessons, they're gonna be looking for something like this.  That we have here. It's, it's,  you come in, you don't want to just have someone leaning on a golf club watching you hit balls on the range with no,  no track man, no 3D, no force plates.

People want the whole picture so it's not just guesswork anymore. They, they get exactly what they need and they feel confident in that because they can, they can see that you're actually measuring what's going on. I just think as we move forward, people are going to want that more and more. And let me, let me add to what I said based on what Sean reminded me of with your excellent answer is when you said places like this, we're indoors in a strip mall,  the number one issue I had almost my entire career was facility.

Yeah, yeah, that's why we did this. The studio in the sky is in one of my two houses that are next to each other.  I could go live to the internet from that, I can give golf lessons to tour players from there. I can tell everybody who gave me trouble  with facilities over the years,  Go jump in the friggin lake that's 1, 700 yards from my house.

And that could have gotten me out of teaching. That's gonna keep some cat that we don't know their name right now. Yes.  in teaching because they're just going to be able this is this is duplicable whatever the right word you could duplicate the studio in the sky or the or the main room at amg would cost a lot of money y'all know how much but i'm just saying  The fact that you don't need traditional, you don't need the PGA of America, you don't need the golf course people and all the butchers makers and candlestick makers that are on stupid committees, you don't need none of that.

All you need to be able to do is have enough room to have something like this. Or you can even do it in a little smaller footprint. And if you're really good at it, and you have some technology to help you get good at it, and obviously, like I said, you can learn all this stuff on the internet, you can be one of those voices that everybody's listening to in the next 10 years that doesn't even exist right now.

Think about how many, you know, growing up in the 80s,  how many malls are now We got Brian knows from first hand. Empty.  Who these kind of facilities are moving into those spaces like that land just doesn't go away No, it's being used and if you have a place like that I mean What could you have done with your game and sean?

If you if you had this to come practice, I wouldn't have taken a lesson anywhere else every swing you made was recorded Every shot had numbers associated to it. You wouldn't waste years doing silly stuff And the piggyback on what brian said we could kind of close here  You know brian and I talk a lot and he said something years ago that got me thinking about this place You He always said, there's no job security in the golf business.

I'll let Brian finish it. Cause he said it to me a million times.  Big Don De La Vasa, may he rest in peace, was the smartest street smart human being I ever met. He was never wrong. Not once.  Even when he was wrong, he was like, He said,  You'll never make any money in this  business unless your daddy owns the driving range.

Well, guess what, babes? You got  three guys on this podcast that daddy owns the driving range. That's it.  And my prediction would be just specialization.  I think more and more, you're not going to go to one person for a job. Yeah. Everything you're comfortable like what we do. We clubhead speed or people bring their players in all the time to our players.

The special. We specialize in the measurement. Yeah, teaching regular golfers. You know what Jacobs is doing and not just measuring because I think Brian mentioned earlier like you could be a PhD and just measure but we come at a little different angle. We have the teaching teaching behind that measure.

But teachers that measure right? I think it's uh,  it's moving in that direction. And like you've always said, you don't have to be a PhD where we can sit here and spend. No one spent more time looking at swings than Mike and he and I and the three of us put together probably nobody. Yeah.  Why, you know, I, I think it's just a skill to be able to, to understand the 3D and have the teaching behind it to put 'em together.

I think that's where it's going. Just imagine, I, I, I don't know, we're going long, but just imagine,  did we, we not tell you this is a 15 minute podcast? Yeah, we should have broken up into 10, 15 minute podcast. But, but basically just imagine having  better quality than this. I'm looking at, at, you know Yeah, absolutely.

Better quality than this with. All measurable stuff. All the kinetics, all the kinematics, at the highest currently available quality of the top 100 swings of all time.  Like you just went back in and found enough footage at all and you recreated it. You give that to somebody on a computer or an  iPad and nobody will have it.

Here's all the commonalities. What could they figure out starting from scratch? Yeah. And just into it. Some little kid that might never put a golf club in his hand might figure out 30 things. That's why I think that voices, that voices thing. I, that's my big prediction. Yeah. Cause you can see if I knew you guys know that everybody right here, right before delivery all had their leg moving in a certain direction at a certain speed or whatever it was.

It's like, Oh, that's different. The gate, the gatekeeper thing. That's killed golf. Tiger broke through that with, you know, with the racism and stuff like that. Like, okay. You know,  Technology is breaking that  the traditional golf media, traditional golf organizations, associations, and it's more available around the world to anybody and because of that, innovation is going to go  through the roof. 

Yeah, I think if you're the golfer,  the golfers that we were, we've all worked with tour players.  That's kind of like, you know, the cherry on top. But. Day in, day out, you're always going to work with more regular golfers, fixing slices, fixing whatever the case may be. They're going to benefit the most. A hundred percent.

You're going to have, they're going to have a better sense of what's good information, what's bad information, because there's going to be evidence to go along with.  And then you're going to have more outlets to go get it. There's going to be more of these places around the country in the next two, three years, not, not have to wait ten years. 

And then, you know, the, the teachers that you've helped, they're  Who are maybe in their first year of teaching 10 years from now. And if you've only ever taught a lesson with gears  and Jacobs 3d or force plates, you're  not going to spend a lot of time on the wilderness or trying to unteach certain things.

So I think for the player, it's a really bright 10 years. Those of us in the business, there's going to be more battles to fight. There's going to be, you know, more, more, more, you know, trimming the fat, but you know, more expensive tools to buy, but.  There's no place I'd rather be  doing this with people that when you care about you enjoy being around and have the same goal. 

It's been a fun ride. Absolutely.  Well, appreciate you. It's the first guest we've ever had. It was a good one and we'll do it again. Anytime boys. Thank you bud.