How getting fired helped fuel his punk rock dreams w/ Wes Hoffman

In this deeply candid conversation, I reconnect with long-time friend and punk rock frontman Wes Hoffman. From growing a band to navigating career pivots and redefining success, Wes pulls back the curtain on his personal evolution.

Listen in to discover:

• 🎸 Why Wes ditched the 9-to-5 to chase music full time—and then came back
• 🤝 The powerful networking philosophy that changed his career trajectory
• 📉 How failure in business taught him what fulfillment really means
• 🎤 Behind the scenes of managing a band while working a corporate job

This episode is a masterclass in balancing creativity, career, and connection. Whether you're a musician, entrepreneur, or just figuring it all out, Wes's story is fuel for your fire.

Connect with him on IG at https://www.instagram.com/wesleyhoffman/

#WesHoffman #PunkRockJourney #CreativeEntrepreneurship #LifeAfterFailure #NetworkingForSuccess #MusicAndMindset #DIYBandLife #ResilientCreatives #CareerTransitions #AuthenticConnections

Transcript

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James Dunn: All right. Hello! Hello! And welcome to the show. I am James Dunn. I'm your host, and you know you guys hear me say this every single episode. But I'm super excited to be here tonight. I've got an awesome guest with me today. This is a buddy of mine that I've known for quite a while, and he's been on a really really cool journey that I can't wait for him to share, because we haven't talked in a little bit, and so I'm excited to hear how some of this has unfolded over the last couple of years. So without further ado, Wes, welcome to the show.

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Wes Hoffman: What's up, James? Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it, man.

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James Dunn: Dude. Now I'm stoked like. Say, I say it at every show. I'm excited to have people on, but it just it's really really true, especially with you, because we have known each other for quite a while.

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James Dunn: probably more so than a lot of the people that I have on the podcast because, a lot of my meet through online networking events. And you and I have actually met in person and have had lunch, a couple of times, and, you know, done all kinds of things like that. I come out. Watch one of your shows. So we have real life connections, and you've you've gone on a pretty awesome journey here lately, but before we dive into that, do me a favor, and just kind of get a give the audience here a little bit of an introduction to who you are and what you're about.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. So my name is Wes Hoffman.

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Wes Hoffman: I guess you know, currently like, the the biggest thing that I've been doing lately, as far as like an entrepreneurial or like creative project is

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Wes Hoffman: I have a band, Wes Hoffman and friends. We have an album out. We've been doing a lot of touring, and I write all the songs. I record, all the songs I book a lot, all the shows and everything. So I really enjoy being like the driving force behind that I'm also previously I was an entrepreneur, so I owned my own business for 5 years, which I don't know if we'll get into that or not. But

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Wes Hoffman: you know I was a recruiter, and I work as a recruiter. Now that's like my full time, job. But above all, that, I'm also a very big networker. I just love meeting people I love connecting the dots for people and making things happen in that way. So yeah, is there anything else you wanted me to touch on.

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James Dunn: I think that's that's a great start that gives people a nice little overview and opens the door for me perfectly, because that's to a certain degree how we met, I remember it was I don't know. It was slew, or somewhere. You were doing a speaking gig, and I saw you up on stage, and you.

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Wes Hoffman: We're talking about.

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James Dunn: Treehouse networking. Yeah, okay, I'm so I can remember exactly where it was at. But but yeah, I remember you're doing treehouse networking. And I don't remember how we officially connected after that, but that was at least my 1st introduction to you. So

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James Dunn: we met. We connected. We end up having lunch at some point, and you were doing the the

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James Dunn: Oh, my God! Recruiting! Yes, yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Working events. Yeah.

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James Dunn: The networking events, and so kind of share with people. What that was all about. Because I love, you know. For me community is huge. You know the people you connect with I mean, the Jim Rohn quote is one of my all time favorites. The 5 people who surround them, or you spend the most time with. Oh, shit! I've already butchered it, see? And this is what we just talked about even before we started the show man that you fuck things up all the time. At least I do, and I don't like to edit it out. But the Jim Rohn quote is, you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time, whether you surround yourself with. So I love what you were doing at that time. It's like, you know, building these communities and connecting people so

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James Dunn: share a little bit about that story.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it really just started at the time. I mean, it's been a little over 10 years now. So this was back in 2013 or 2014. I was looking for a job I had. Actually, I got fired from a job back in early 2013, and it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me, because it was a horrible job. I wasn't doing well there. It wasn't good for my mental health and

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Wes Hoffman: so I was doing a bunch of like contracting like freelancing basically positions. And I was working like at 1 point I was working like 3 different jobs like just part time. And

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Wes Hoffman: I I was finding a lot of the people that were in like a similar situation that I was in, where, like they were freelancers or contractors, and they were looking for

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Wes Hoffman: you know, new job opportunities. And then I also was kind of getting into a lot of my freelance clients were like in the advertising, and like the creative industry. So they were having all kinds of net happy hours and networking events that were specifically for advertising agencies and people in the advertising industry.

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Wes Hoffman: And I kind of thought well, like this is something that every that people from every walk of life and every profession, or even just like socially

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Wes Hoffman: like we're all looking to connect with people in some way. You know what I mean, and and why not? Why don't we have

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Wes Hoffman: you know, just a safe space for people to to come meet up somewhere and and just get to know people, even if you're like, Hey, I'm new in town, and I'm just looking to know. Get to know? Like minded people, or I'm looking for a job, or I'm looking to hire freelancers. So I started putting together network networking events like happy hours that would just go from like

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Wes Hoffman: 5 to 8 Pm. You know, and we would do them once a month. And eventually we started getting like 2 to 400 people coming out to these events. As it as it started to

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Wes Hoffman: to kind of gain steam. So then, you know, from there we started doing like more specific events like panel discussions and speaking you know, we have, like people speak and and do things like that. So and eventually that turned into me

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Wes Hoffman: kind of taking the role of like the connector and and being like, Hey, I have this big group of people that I've now built kind of around me. That I've gotten to know through these networking events like I could. I can be the one that connects the dots and says, oh, you're looking for a job, and you're looking for a company like you guys should at least talk. You know what I mean. So you're looking for a job, and you're looking for an employee like you should at least talk and it was really cool, like

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Wes Hoffman: like, I said, it's been a while since we've had those events. But you know so many cool stories, like people, met their their future spouses at those weddings people went on dates, people, and and even through, like my, my recruiting service, like people that

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Wes Hoffman: I helped find jobs that have been at these jobs now for close to 10 years. So it's really it's it was really a cool time in my life. And I'm really thankful that I did it. But yeah, that's that's that's what it was all about.

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James Dunn: Awesome man. So you know, I want to back up there a little bit. You know. You said you were in a job you hated. It was a very toxic environment. And you got fired. And you know, through the telling of what you just did you? You've already shown that it was actually an amazing blessing. And that's 1 of the things I love to kind of highlight on this show in this particular series is

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James Dunn: how often things at the time, maybe seem really crappy. So when you got fired, were you excited immediately, or did it take you a little while to figure out, okay, this, you could see it down the road. But how? How long did it take before you recognize? Wait! This is actually a really great thing.

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Wes Hoffman: It. It was a couple of months before that really kicked in. At at 1st the the initial feeling was, I was relieved that I didn't have to go there every day.

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Wes Hoffman: and I was already in the process of looking for another job, you know, so I didn't want to be there, and I was relieved at first, st and then I was like, Okay, we'll make it through, and I'll find I'll find something quickly. I'll land on my feet, and then it was really only about a month or 2 after that that I picked up a pretty steady freelance

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Wes Hoffman: position that I had been, that I was working at, for, you know, 2025 HA week. You know, so like 3 days a week, and then,

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Wes Hoffman: you know, I had picked up some other stuff, too. So it was really just putting myself out there and you know, I was already putting a lot of those networking tactics into prop into practice, of reaching out to former coworkers former employers saying like, Hey, if you need anything like, can I help? If you hear I'm looking for a job if you need it. If you hear of anybody that's like

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Wes Hoffman: that needs anybody like me, you know. Please let me know. And and so and then, after a while, I kind of felt like, Okay, this is this is the path that I need to be on, at least for right now in my life, and this is for my own mental health. It felt I felt way better, so.

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James Dunn: Yeah. So it wasn't necessarily a plan that when you you got fired and you started this new journey it wasn't a plan like, okay, I immediately see that this is where I need to go, which is something. It sounds more like that naturally evolved like, let me just start following what

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James Dunn: feels good to me is that about right?

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Wes Hoffman: Absolutely yeah 100%. Yeah, I didn't intentionally like, you know, there's there's a lot of hold on. I gotta let my dog in.

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James Dunn: I I thought maybe he'd stay out there the whole time. But

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James Dunn: Dad, I know Dad's busy, so I gotta come back in.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: So yeah, at the time, at the time I was nervous and and I didn't really know what I was going to do, and I think I was. I had just turned 30 at that point, and I was like man. Well, you know, this would be kind of a good time to figure out. What is it that I really want to do? I felt like. Up until that point I had. I hadn't really been living with a lot of intention. I just kind of like I got a job when I was like

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Wes Hoffman: 22, or 23, and I stayed there for almost 5 years, and then, you know, I had bounced around to a few different companies. But I was kind of just taking the next thing that was like in front of me, and I had never really thought about you know, what is it that I really want? I was kind of like, well, this is a job, and it's good, and I'll just take it and see where it goes. So

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Wes Hoffman: you know, I definitely kind of sat down and thought like, what is it I really want to do? And I wanted to work with creative people because I'm I myself am a creative person. So you know advertising and and

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Wes Hoffman: was in marketing, and those types of things was a much better fit for me at least being if I wasn't doing the actual creative work. I was working in sales for those companies. So I was around really creative people and having conversations about, you know, how do we solve certain problems. How do we craft a certain message to a specific group of people and those types of things which I still think about to this day? You know, I

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Wes Hoffman: I still really enjoyed my time working in like the advertising and creative creative world. For sure.

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James Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a very important thing to point out to people if they do end up in a situation where maybe they're not

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James Dunn: in an ideal career path or whatever. And maybe you've got this idea where you want to be. If you can't necessarily get that job, can you get around that job? Because just being in an environment, maybe will open doors. You didn't even realize we're there. So I think that's really awesome.

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James Dunn: And so thinking about that situation in that time in your life, you know, being out there. And because I was gonna ask you

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James Dunn: if the 30 made you

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James Dunn: more like. Oh, shit! I don't have my life together, but I like it. Seemed like you had more of a positive attitude about like. Now is a great time for me to get my shit together. This was my twenties were just let me just kinda do whatever. But now let me get really serious about it. So

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James Dunn: what gave you the courage to say? You know what? I'm going to sit down, and I'm just going to go ahead and really make this shift away from everything that I was in before, and just try to find something that makes me happy versus falling back into that trap of. Well, I just gotta go to a job again. You know I've got to pay. I've got to do this because that's what so many people want to do is they got. I just got to pay the bills, man. I can't take time to stop and think about what I want. I got to pay the bills. So what gave you that courage and that confidence just to say, you know what fuck this man? I'm doing, what I want to do.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, I I mean, I didn't want to get back. I didn't. Wanna.

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Wes Hoffman: I mean, I had so many job interviews at that time, too. I was going on so many job interviews, and I didn't want to fall back into the same trap that I was in where it was like. Oh, I met this really shitty job. And I don't like being here anymore. Like, I really feel like I was just talking to somebody about that not too long ago is like

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Wes Hoffman: that job that I had. I there were days where I had to be there super early in the morning, like 7 30, so I'd have to leave my house to, you know, around 6, 45, which meant I was getting up around 5, 45, and that I you know

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Wes Hoffman: I do. I don't mind getting up early sometimes, but I'm not I, you know, at that. At that point, when you're when you're getting up early to do something that you don't want to do. It's not very fun, and there'd be days where I just sit on the edge of my bed with my head in my hands, trying to figure out a way to not go to work that day. You know.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: And I don't. Wanna. I didn't wanna fall back into that trap. And I was like, well, I'm just not. Gonna I'm not gonna just find a job for the sake of finding a job because I need to pay my bills or something, you know, like

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Wes Hoffman: I really want to find something that I want to do, that that I want to do like that'll, that'll make me happy that I'm excited to to go to every day. So yeah, that was really the biggest thing was, I just didn't want to fall in that trap again.

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James Dunn: Yeah, did you?

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James Dunn: I'm sure at some point you had to. But did you really spend a whole lot of time looking at your financials and saying, Okay, I've got to have this much money, or was it more of just let me just follow my intuition. And I know things are going to work out, because again, I know so many people they get scared of like, you know, I've got to keep up with the Joneses. I got to have this lifestyle. Was there any of that thought? You know that kind of came in that? Well, if I take this job or that job, some people might

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James Dunn: think it's weird, or, you know, think, oh, well, West should be doing this.

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Wes Hoffman: Not not not too much

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Wes Hoffman: at the time, like everything, as far as like finances go, like everything was pretty okay, like I was. I was getting unemployment, and you know I was. I had found some

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Wes Hoffman: I like. I said I had found pre freelance work pretty quickly, so like you know. So there wasn't really too much of a gap there that I felt like.

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Wes Hoffman: You know, I wasn't that that I didn't have like

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Wes Hoffman: that, you know that I wasn't gonna make it through.

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James Dunn: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The bill collector wasn't knocking on the door, saying, you're gonna get out today. Yeah, none of that.

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Wes Hoffman: Okay. Good. Good.

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James Dunn: Good so cool. So you you made that transition. You started doing some things that you loved more. And then when did you start bringing. Oh, I know, like, say, you and I met, and I can't remember exactly. You've done the positive punk show.

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James Dunn: Yes, one I went to, and

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James Dunn: as far as I know, I don't know how much music you were doing. So when did the music stuff start coming into play for you, doing regular gigs.

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Wes Hoffman: So so I was in a I I had played music

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Wes Hoffman: all growing up. My mom had taught me piano when I was a kid, and then I started playing guitar when I was like 13, and then I started playing in bands when I was like 17, and up through till I was about 25, and then and then I kind of stopped. And I was like.

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Wes Hoffman: you know, I I don't know if this is like really what I want to do anymore. Like, I had kind of, I'd been in a couple of bands that like just didn't really work out and kind of made it like, not as fun anymore. So I was like, I'll need to take a break from this. So I took a break for like 8 years and then I it was around 2015. So a couple of years after I had gotten let go from that job, and I had started doing my my own business.

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Wes Hoffman: So I was self-employed at this time. A friend of mine was like, Hey, you know, he played drums. And he and we were doing a podcast and we started talking to all these bands. And he was like, Yeah, we should, we should start playing music again. He's like, Don't don't you miss it? And he had played for a really long time either. And so I was like, Yeah, I do kind of miss it. I was like, I don't even have a guitar anymore. I've like an acoustic guitar, but like I don't even have, I haven't played in so long like, you know. I mean, I know that I'll remember how to play, but like.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: I just. I just haven't played in in almost a decade. So he talked me into it, and and we we ended up renting a space here in St. Louis. That I still have to this day. It'll be 10 years in November that I.

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James Dunn: Wow!

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Wes Hoffman: Had this rehearsal space. So we rented a space and we started a band. And you know, we got a couple other guys involved. And then that kind of fizzled out around 2017, 2018. I think it was. It was around 2017 that that kind of fizzled out.

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James Dunn: And I was like, you know, I want to keep this rehearsal space because I really like being able to come down here and play loud whenever I can.

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Wes Hoffman: And my friend. He moved out. He left, and I was like, I'll keep the space and I so around the time that I met you. I had started playing in a band. That's when I started doing my my Wes Hoffman positive punk stuff, and it was called Wes Hoffman positive punk at the time, and you know I originally

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Wes Hoffman: at that show that you saw me at that was in March of 2018. That was going to be our only show. We we weren't gonna do really do anything after that, like myself and our drummer. He, he was like recording stuff and I he actually had hired me to help him find a job. And he was like.

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Wes Hoffman: One day I woke up and he had sent me an email like in the middle of the night. He stays up really late. So he'd sent me an email at like 2 30 in the morning that was like, Hey, do you want to come over to my house and and record a song with me sometime? And I honestly, at 1st I was like, man. I don't know if I have the energy or like. I don't know if I if I want to or not. And then I was like, Okay, whatever you know, I was like, oh, let's let's do it like it'll be fun.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: And that kind of sparked the whole thing. And you know, he and I work really really well together. He's still in the band to this day. So

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Wes Hoffman: you know, and then I was like, Well, let's we'll write a few songs, and then we'll play a show, and then. We played a show, and you know, at that show that you came to like the room was pretty full, and everybody, you know everybody was having a great time, and I was like, Man, I really really miss this doing this and you know, I don't think we played very many shows for the rest of that year. But in 2019 we did and then everything's kind of snowballed from there and then.

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Wes Hoffman: but but yeah, that's when I started but there, there's I have more to say, but but I feel.

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James Dunn: No, no, you're good. You're good man, I mean I I'd love

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James Dunn: this theme, too, is again, you know. Something came up naturally. It wasn't like you set out like. Oh, I've got to go. Put this band together, whatever it was, just through the natural course you you've kind of started to me doing this theme of, you know, I'm just gonna start living this this cool, happy life, and then start following these little callings that you know, instead of feeling like I got to be forced to do something, because, you know, in your thirties, that's not usually a time. Most people go off and start forming bands.

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James Dunn: So it's something that, are you? There.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, hold on. I've I've got a I hold on.

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Wes Hoffman: Okay, I'm here. Yeah.

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James Dunn: There we go!

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Wes Hoffman: A a call. A a call came in on my phone and it came up on my computer. So sorry.

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James Dunn: Technology man. Isn't it great?

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah.

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James Dunn: But yeah, I I just love this theme of just you listening to the little whispers of life. You know that.

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Wes Hoffman: Yep.

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James Dunn: Like, Hey, you know, I'm gonna go over here and I'm gonna start following the little things that I love and that I enjoy because, like, I said, Yeah, you know, your thirties is not a time. Most people start forming bands and recording.

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Wes Hoffman: Right, right.

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James Dunn: You know, that's usually when like, that's when they've hung up the guitar. And they've said no more. I'm done with this, you know, but that's when you have restarted this. So what gave you that courage? I guess maybe you know, to really say you know what, hey? I am going to go ahead and and follow this. I don't care if people again, you know, maybe look and say what the fuck is, Wes trying? Is he trying to relive his glory days. You know

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James Dunn: you're the Punk Rock kid, you know.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, well, you know, and a lot of a lot of those thoughts did creep in. So I was 35 when when we played our 1st show, and I and a lot of those thoughts did creep in of like.

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Wes Hoffman: Oh, are people gonna think you know, he shouldn't be doing this at this age. And you know, like, like you know, what are you? What are you trying to do like, you know? And it's like I. I think for me, I just have to block a lot of that out and say, like, Hey, it doesn't matter. Yeah, there probably are people out there that that think that, or you know that are like man. How like? Why is he following this passion, or whatever? And I I really feel like.

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Wes Hoffman: Now I'm getting to do a lot of the things that I wanted to do when I was like 16 or 17. You know what I mean, and it's it's, you know, 25 years after that, like. But but I'm you know, I think you gotta kind of block out the noise and say, well, this is what I really want to do. And I'm going to follow this path. And and

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Wes Hoffman: yeah, it definitely. It definitely was, you know. And even still, sometimes those now we've actually found, like we've actually had some success. And we've gained some traction. And we've we have like record labels behind us, and we have a manager, and we have other bands out there that are our age that we tour with. And you know we actually have people listening to our music. And I mean, people have gotten tattoos with our lyrics on that, you know.

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James Dunn: Oh!

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Wes Hoffman: It's it's actually, you know, those are the things that that I see that I'm like, you know, and we've sold a decent amount of records. So those are the things that I see that I'm like, okay, this is actually like, you know.

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Wes Hoffman: you don't see that at the beginning, when you're when you're just 1st starting. And and but if you would have told me that at the beginning I would have been hyped, and I would have been like, Okay, yeah, let's go. Let's do this. I don't know how this is all going to happen. But like, I'm I'm excited for it. So

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Wes Hoffman: so yeah. And then a a big part of this story, too, is

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Wes Hoffman: So Covid hit.

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Wes Hoffman: So in 2019, you know, was when I stopped. I like shut down my business. That was really when everything really started to change for me. So like you know. At 1 point it was my dream to have ran my own business and you know a lot of a lot of things that

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Wes Hoffman: as I look back now, I would have done things a lot differently. If I were to do it again I would do things with a lot differently. But you know me running my own business and having kind of inconsistent income.

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Wes Hoffman: and and just the ups and downs and of. And I was the only person I didn't have like a big team of people or anything. So I was the owner and the operator, and you know it was very. It put a lot of stress on me and my marriage, and

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Wes Hoffman: things were kind of like coming to a head where I was. I was like, I'm I'm burnt out

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Wes Hoffman: on running my own business

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Wes Hoffman: like I. You know I've I've been burnt out at jobs before that I've had like, oh, man, just the daily grind gets to me. But I'm like I'm burnt out on doing my own thing, and I don't know how to now get away from this and and and do something different. And I I needed, you know, I I had some really really good times when

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Wes Hoffman: I was when I was running that business. I had some great financial wins, some goals that I hit. But then there were also times where it was. It got really, really low and got really dark, and it was like, man. I don't really know how I'm going to do this. So I was like, well, I think I'll go back and I'll get a job, and you know that'll bring some stability to my life. It'll bring a stable paycheck, and you know that maybe that'll like

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Wes Hoffman: help things with my marriage at the time. And it did for a minute, but then, you know, we ended up separating like right before Covid hit. So you know, and I saw James you. You just posted a couple of days ago about, you know, divorce and and everything like that. And

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Wes Hoffman: yeah, yeah, yeah. So

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Wes Hoffman: you know, it's it's interesting, like, that's that's nothing. I never expected that to be part of like my story. I never expected. I don't think anybody ever goes into life thinking, oh, you know, I think I'll I'll give the old divorce a try. You know what I mean.

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Wes Hoffman: but it's it's something that happens. And

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Wes Hoffman: that changed everything for me. You know, when I look at my where my life is now, and and now I'm I'm with an amazing woman.

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Wes Hoffman: We have how we live together in South City, St. Louis. She's super supportive of everything that I do.

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Wes Hoffman: and and we've had a great time, and it really is like, you know what I what I have wanted in a relationship. And then and you know, now I have. I have a full time job, which is also really good, and provides like a really good sense of stability, and it gives me the opportunity to do the things that I want to do outside of work, you know, and but that really, you know, the divorce and the closing of my business, and all of that, that I really felt like I was hitting rock bottom.

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Wes Hoffman: That really helped me see like, what is it that I want to do like? What is it that makes me happy? What is it that I want in a relationship in a partner in life like I just went through all of this

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Wes Hoffman: these situations in my life of like what I don't want in a relationship, and what I don't want in in like, you know, my finances in a job, and so like, what is it that I really do want, and that really kind of turned everything around for me. So

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Wes Hoffman: so yeah, I definitely wanted to kind of touch on that before I.

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James Dunn: Oh, yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Whatever.

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James Dunn: Yeah, no, I think that's really important. And I think it's an important thing to note, too, is you had gone through something similar, you know, with the 1st job you got to a point where you were burnout and like man, fuck this. Now, what I'm going to do with my life, and you started anew almost. And then you go through the next phase and then, like, Okay, now, this isn't working. And then you started anew. And so I think sometimes people think that we're just going to get it right the very 1st time. It's like

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James Dunn: something. Everything's gonna be magical. And I'm sorry to break it to you people. That's not how the fuck it works. You're going to go through this this evolution over and over, and you know, referencing back to the post that you just talked about with me and divorce. That's what I shared. But part of the message I shared in there was. I went through 2 divorces, and it wasn't until I hit that second divorce. I'm like what the fuck dude like. I'm the common denominator here. There's 2 divorces, one common denominator. It's me.

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James Dunn: So I had to stop pointing the finger at circumstances, at life, at the people that I was with, and say, you know, I'm the person that's got to change. I've got to create the life that I want to live, and a very slimmer situation where it's like. Now I've got to start sitting down like, what do I truly want in a relationship? What do I want in a career? What do I want? And all of these things, and so I think that's a

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James Dunn: you know. I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. But as we can look back now, if you hadn't gone through that then you wouldn't be to where you're at now, and so it's always a beautiful blessing when we give it enough time and give it that proper perspective.

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Wes Hoffman: Absolutely absolutely. Yeah. And and it's a lot of times you don't see how

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Wes Hoffman: it's gonna get better until, like like you, you don't see.

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Wes Hoffman: you're like, okay, this is what I want, and you don't see how that's all going to happen.

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James Dunn: Hmm.

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Wes Hoffman: Until it's behind you, or like you don't see how those things were like a blessing until it's behind you like people

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Wes Hoffman: we say hindsight's 2020 all the time, and that's like kind of like a cliche. But it really is true, because once you're once you are, go through something you can, and even a positive thing like a successful thing. You can look back and see like. If I wouldn't have met this person. I wouldn't have done this and then and then this wouldn't have happened, and then we wouldn't have went on tour with this band. And then this thing wouldn't have happened, you know, so you can kind of see how all the dots connect after it happens. But the hard part is when you're in it.

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Wes Hoffman: you can't. You can't necessarily see that. And I remember constantly thinking, like, when I was going through all that those rough times in my marriage and my business like, I know there's a lesson in this. I know there's a lesson in this. I don't know what it is right now, but like I know that I'm gonna come out the other side, like having learned that something from this so.

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James Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really the thing is, don't don't pressure yourself to figure it out right now. Just know that it's going to happen at some point. You don't have to love going through it. I think that's the other thing, too, is like, we're not sitting here telling you like, I'll just love it. Just know that everything's gonna be perfect. And you got to love it. Even know that. That's not it, either. It's no okay, yeah, this sucks. I don't like that. I'm going through this. This is not good at all. But I know that at some point

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James Dunn: I'm going to find something good that comes out of this, even if it's I don't ever want to be there again. That's a possibility.

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James Dunn: right?

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James Dunn: You know.

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Wes Hoffman: Right? Right? Exactly. Yeah. And I can see the warning signs of that happening, you know. So I heard this quote the other day that was like, you know, you don't have to know the whole path. But you can trust the next step. Yeah, you know. And I really like that because I'm like sometimes, even with stuff that I'm doing with my band. I'm like.

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Wes Hoffman: I don't really know how we're gonna

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Wes Hoffman: get here, or but like I'm gonna take the next step and see what happens. So.

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James Dunn: Yeah, yeah, you know. And one thing I've always loved about you is your positive attitude. I mean, like, say, even with, you know, that 1st iteration when we had met. You know, it was like it was positive punk. So you're trying to put

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James Dunn: message and share that with people. And I know you're a very mindful person, so I'd love to know one habit that you know has helped you through your journey, or that you might recommend people who are on their journey in life trying to get to a more consistently happy place, not where everything's perfect, but at least just being able to handle the little punches that come up in life, you know

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James Dunn: sure might be a great habit that you would recommend to them.

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Wes Hoffman: I mean i. 1 thing that was big for me was back in 2014. I started doing just mindful meditation like 10 min a day. I still do. I don't do it as much as I, not as consistent as I used to be, and I used to even do

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Wes Hoffman: like I used to like before I would go to bed, smoke a little bit of weed, and like meditate for like 45 min or an hour, you know, and like.

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James Dunn: Really get deep into the mind. There.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, that was great. But that. And then, you know, I really try to find I think it's so easy to just

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Wes Hoffman: pick on the negative all the time. And and

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Wes Hoffman: I really try to find positive things in, you know, and especially like in the mundane. It's really easy to be like. Oh, man, this sucks like this like traffic, just all the little things like like that that frustrate us throughout the day.

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Wes Hoffman: And I really try to not let those little things bother me like like traffic. I can't do anything about traffic. I can't do everything you know anything about like sometimes unexpected things happen, and you have to pay, you know, $1,700 for a car repair or something like that. And you, you know, and in that situation that happened to me not too long ago. And I was like.

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Wes Hoffman: you know

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Wes Hoffman: what? I'm thankful I have the money to pay this, because, like a few years ago, this would put me in a hole. Bad. You know what I mean like I would have been looking on. How can I get a new car like, you know, a cheaper. I'm selling this car, and, you know, trying to figure something else out. So you know things like that that I really try to just look at the bright side and I try not to let myself go down. Don't! Don't get me wrong. I get negative sometimes. And I sometimes there are things that like you said like

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Wes Hoffman: just in it's like this, just sucks, and you can't say anything about else about it, but it sucks, but I try not to fixate on it. I try not to fixate on those things, because I feel like in the same way. That

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Wes Hoffman: positivity, you know, attracts more positivity. Negativity attracts more negativity. So like you find one thing you wake up and your 1st thoughts oh, shit. I got to go to work today, and I hate my job. And then the next thing is well, now I spilled coffee on myself, and you know you just can go down these

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Wes Hoffman: rabbit holes, and I try not. You know, these spirals, and I I really try not to do that. I try to just be mindful of like this is a normal thing that everybody deals with. Everybody has spilt coffee on themselves at 1 point or another, like.

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James Dunn: Wow!

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Wes Hoffman: You know, and and I really try to not just fixate on those things too much. So.

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James Dunn: Yeah, yeah, just really keeping that even keel mind, and something that I've

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James Dunn: learned. I've never really thought about it before, but it makes so much sense that I've learned here in the last couple of years is you know, like the one thing we always feel like positive affirmations. And they're great.

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James Dunn: Yeah, yeah.

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James Dunn: But somebody, yeah. But there's this guy, Trevor, Moad. He was a sports. I don't know if he was a sports psychologist or not, but he was a coach for some pretty high profile sports figures, and his big thing was just being neutral

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James Dunn: like you don't have to be positive, but don't go negative as long as you can stay neutral about the situation like, say, if you spill the coffee on you like. Okay, it is what it is, you know.

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James Dunn: Oh, my God, I'm a piece of crap. And now the shirt's ruined. And now I can't do this. Yeah, like, say, because once you start going that down that negative spiral it's so hard to get out of. But if you can just say.

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James Dunn: Okay, that sucks and just leave it at that it's so much easier to get on with your day.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, oh, absolutely. And I that's that's very like stoic. That's a very like stoic and I feel like that's that's really like

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Wes Hoffman: because of all the information that we have out there, you know, because of smartphones. And and you know, I mean dude. Sometimes it's like, and and I am on my phone, I I because of my band. And because of, like, you know just how life is with booking and and all these things that I have to do. I am on my phone a lot like messaging people emailing, texting, you know, messaging through Instagram or all that like posting and

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Wes Hoffman: creating videos and stuff like that. I'm I am on my phone quite a bit. And

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Wes Hoffman: excuse me, I feel like there's a lot of

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Wes Hoffman: our brains are just like processing so much information all the time, and and constantly like judging and thinking, you know. Oh, well, this, that, and the other. And it's like, sometimes I think that's why there's been such a rise in like stoicism and and trying to be mindfulness, because, like

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Wes Hoffman: it's, I don't think our brains were meant to process as much information as we're processing.

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James Dunn: You know. No, I don't think so. I'm right there. 1,000% with you. I think. You know, we're designed to process some amount of information, but not this. Just constant barrage. 24, 7, just.

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Wes Hoffman: That's yeah.

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James Dunn: No, I, my neighbor kid, I was just so we've got. I got my neighbors right next to me and one of the girls that lives there. She's got 2 little kids, and I think they're probably like 3, 4 years old, or whatever. And I look out. And one of the 2 kids is walking around with a phone in their hand, just like I don't know if it was Tiktok or but it looked like Tiktok. Not that I could like staring at my freaking neighbors, kids, but like as they're walking past, my house is close enough, I can see, like their screen, and they're like scrolling like flipping videos. And like.

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James Dunn: you're like 4, you're outside.

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Wes Hoffman: And play.

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James Dunn: Hey? You know.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah.

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James Dunn: Phone out of your face. Oh, my God! When I was a kid.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, my.

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James Dunn: To go out. Play in the cornfields, right? Or but I mean, oh, yeah.

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James Dunn: bullshit you hear on, you know, everywhere. But it's like we did. We've laid in the cornfields. We were gone until dark, man. We were outside all the time, and our parents never knew where the hell we were at, and it's

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James Dunn: it was just so beautiful.

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Wes Hoffman: It, was it really? I was just talking to my girlfriend about that that like, remember being bored.

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James Dunn: What's that? A board.

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Wes Hoffman: Like a random like rainy day. And and you know, summer on summer vacation, where you'd be like you wanted to go outside and play, but you can't, because it's raining. And you've played all the video games that's rotted your brain.

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James Dunn: You.

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Wes Hoffman: Like you're just saying

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Wes Hoffman: they're like, Oh, what do I want to do? I want to do something, you know, and I just don't. I don't. I've never bored anymore. You know what I mean.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Because you always have your phone and again. And I remember, just like the silence and the stillness that we had back in the eighties and nineties. That was just like.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: I I sometimes I on the weekends. I put my phone in the other room

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Wes Hoffman: and and I just like I won't look at it for like several hours, just because it feels nice to unplug.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: You know. And yeah, so and then you come back. And you've got a barrage of of

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Wes Hoffman: text and emails. And you know, instead of answering them one by one. It's like, Oh, man, I have like 17 messages.

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James Dunn: Something like I can never leave my phone again ever. Oh, my God, right?

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James Dunn: Yeah, I know it's I. I'm very intentional about doing that, though, myself, I hit a certain point in the day where I'll put my phone down, and I just like I leave it there. And I have a couple of people very specific people in my life that I have special ringtones for. And so if they call, or if they text, I know it's them.

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James Dunn: and it's literally it's my son. It's my mom, and it used to be my daughter. But my daughter lives with me now, so I know she's here so. But I mean, if it's if one of those 3 people, then I'll check if it's anybody else. I don't give a fuck, you know I'm like. I don't care who you are. I'll get back to you when I feel like getting back to you, because I think we need that space. I don't think we should be connected 24, 7 to everybody and everything.

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James Dunn: And I think the biggest downfall

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James Dunn: in society, or what we're seeing. The the loss of is creativity to what you were talking about, you know, when you sit around your board. That's when you start thinking. Well, what can I come up with. That's when you start grabbing the guitar and writing songs, or that's when you get out of paintbrush and you start coming up with something you're like. What do I do? Oh, let me go create something, because there's nothing here for me just to automatically numb my brain for the next 2 h with.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah.

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James Dunn: It's so unfortunate.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah.

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James Dunn: So let me ask you, cause. I always like to give people one specific thing that they can go find. You know we have these ideas and these concepts that we've experienced, or whatever in our lives. But

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James Dunn: is there a book out there that's had a major impact on you that you would recommend to people to go out for whatever you know impact it's had on you. You'd want them to go check it out. Say, hey, check this book out because I found it really helpful for me.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 2 books come to mind right away. One is the power of now and then, the other one is, think and grow rich. Oh, yeah, both of those were the power of now. I read that in like 2017, and that opened my eyes just to like

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Wes Hoffman: psychologically and spiritually, that, like, you know, and how we view time like the only time it ever really is, is now. And you know time right now. It might be like 6 15 in the evening. But like that doesn't really mean anything. It's, you know, that's just that's just how you say, oh, 5 30. We're gonna do this podcast. That's just a way for you and I to coordinate and say.

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Wes Hoffman: we know what time, what you know. At this same moment we're gonna get on this zoom and and talk but the time is always now and and that that there's like peace in that and that like we, we actually create from that moment of of you know, being of of now

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Wes Hoffman: and and also just that, you know the idea that we're always living in in our minds. We're always thinking about the next thing, or we're stuck in the past, and and that that causes stress. Like, like, you know

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Wes Hoffman: we

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Wes Hoffman: you're constantly thinking about the next thing. Then you're not living in the moment. So that was a really big book for me, and I've read it twice. I need to reread it again, and then think and grow rich. Is.

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Wes Hoffman: it was just a great book when you kind of get into like.

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Wes Hoffman: I mean just the idea that we become what we think about, you know. And and I have used that you know, ever since I I've heard that. And you know I'm I'm kind of a big

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Wes Hoffman: for a for a long, for around the time that I met you, actually, James, I was really into like law of attraction.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Spirituality. And I've read all these books that that I'm sure you've read like the untethered soul. And you know just all these these books that I feel like are a part of everyone's like, if you really start getting into like spirituality, that you, you find these books that have all really really helped me. But just the idea that, like

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Wes Hoffman: it all kind of starts in your mind, and what you believe and what you think. And then like, when when you really start to believe those things like deep from the core of your being, it starts to change

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Wes Hoffman: in the real world like, you know. And I've really I've really seen that in my in my life with

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Wes Hoffman: like just the way that my life is now, and and with my band and everything, and like really believing that, hey, like we, we can do this, we can. We can go on these tours. We can do these things. We, you know, if if you don't believe

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Wes Hoffman: from the very beginning like it's not gonna happen, you know what I mean.

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James Dunn: Oh, yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: If you don't think it's in the realm of possibility. And I mean, I'm sure that there are people out there that like they're just talented people, and somebody

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Wes Hoffman: discovered. Am I getting another call? God damn it!

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James Dunn: You're a popular man. See? We talk about the phone.

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Wes Hoffman: Away from it for a podcast interview

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Wes Hoffman: spam. It's just spam like, I, I think you know, we do get into these. I think there's a lot of people out there that that like there's 2 things like

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Wes Hoffman: you know, they want to do something, but a they don't believe that they can, that they're either worthy that they can't, or that it, that it's in the realm of possibilities or 2, they don't know how, and and so I and and it doesn't matter what you're doing, you know. Use the case for me with my music. It's like once I really started saying like

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Wes Hoffman: in my mind, you know, and this is around 2020 like this is a good song, like people will like this song, I like this song, if I like it.

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James Dunn: It's.

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Wes Hoffman: And I'm really critical of my own stuff, and I really like it. And I think it's good. Then other people are going to think that it's good, too. And then and then, you know, I kind of realize I'm like there's other bands out there that I think we have better songs than they're more popular than us, and they're doing things that we want to do. And so why would I not? You know? Why would I not be able to do the things that they're doing.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: But I think, and there's there's then there's bands out there that are better than us that have better songs, but they don't tour, and they don't put themselves out there. I don't know why, but I could, probably I. When I talk to some of these bands, they'll say like, Oh, yeah, we don't think that we're that great, you know, or when I talk to them, they're like we'd love to tour. But we don't know how to book a show in Chicago or Milwaukee or Minnesota, you know. So there's a lot of like

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Wes Hoffman: I found that a lot of like what you want to do just starts in your mind, and how you think about things and and what you believe. And once I start start believing these things like they started to, and and realizing that like they can come true, like, you know.

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Wes Hoffman: You know, I wanted to put an album out on a label, and you know that like

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Wes Hoffman: came true, and I didn't necessarily know how it was going to come true, like I didn't. But I was. The 1st step was like. I probably need to get in touch with some. I need to write an album first.st

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James Dunn: That's probably good. 1st step, yeah, yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Right right, and I need to get in touch with some labels like.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: You know. So yeah, I those were power of now and and thinking grow rich like, you know, if you think you're not a very good musician if you're if you're insecure about like. Oh, I'm not very good. Then, like

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Wes Hoffman: it's not. Gonna then that's gonna reflect to you in the outer world. You know what I mean like, but if you're confident and you're like, Oh, no, I think I'm a great musician. I think you know we're we're good at what we do, and we're good, you know. We're a great band. We play live, and we, you know, we kill it and you know. Then then you go up there with that

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Wes Hoffman: like mentality, and you do it. And then it's like people come up to you like you. Oh, my God, you guys are freaking awesome. So it's it's like. And then that reinforces like the belief. And it's like this kind of cycle of like. Oh, well, now, now, what I thought in my head is being shown to me in the real world. So it's it's you know. But I had. I had to have that confidence first.st So.

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James Dunn: You're making all kinds of sense, man. I love it because you have to have that belief in yourself. And we all I mean, I think we're always still going to have some doubt, because at least you know myself and yourself. I know we're people who are always striving to be better. So there's this great book out there called the Gap and the Gain. I don't know if you ever read it or not.

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Wes Hoffman: No.

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James Dunn: It talks about the gap between where you are like a lot of times we want to compare us, or we want to judge ourselves based on where we want to be. But we're not looking at the things that we've done. So there's the gap. That's what we focus on. But we're not focusing on the gain all the things that we've gone on, and we've done so, you know you might be looking at. I'm not saying this is you? But somebody in your situation might be, you know. They've released an album like, but it didn't go gold. It didn't go platinum, I mean.

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Wes Hoffman: Oh, okay.

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James Dunn: Golden platinum anymore, you know, with the with the way they do like downloads, or however they, you know, rate that. But it didn't do this, but like no, motherfucker, but you release an album, and you're going on tour. And you're doing all this shit. And so but yeah, you've got to have. It all starts with that belief that I can do this. And it's interesting.

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James Dunn: because, like you, you know.

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James Dunn: you would say yourself, you're not that much different than these other guys. You need the other bands, but you have just at least that little bit of belief in yourself like, you know what man fuck! I'm going to call up some rabbit company dudes and say mostly, just tell me to fuck off. Tell me no, if nothing else that well, they're going to tell me. No. Okay, then I know I don't call them, or I just

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James Dunn: I call them, and from a different perspective. Or I go at a different angle with this. But or maybe they can put me in contact with somebody and just putting yourself out there and starting that process, because, as I'm hearing you tell those stories about these people. Yeah, we don't know how to tour. Well, fucking. Call some call a vendor like, Hey, man, can I come play your place, you know. Right?

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James Dunn: Right?

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James Dunn: They'll say, no, you need to contact this guy. Okay, cool. Can I get a number? Okay? Yeah. And then it's it all starts unfolding. But you had to have that belief in yourself. Just let me just call somebody.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, well, and and I, I started thinking about

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Wes Hoffman: yeah. And and I mean, also, you know, why don't you like

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Wes Hoffman: talk, you know. Talk to somebody who's doing the thing that you want to do, like you know how to ask them how they did.

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Wes Hoffman: I had another. I I had another point to that, but, dang it, I can't remember what it was.

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James Dunn: It was right there.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, I'll I'll think of it here in a second. But

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Wes Hoffman: wow! Dang it, anyway. Yeah, go on.

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James Dunn: Anyway. But no, yeah, I just just what you're talking about, just just calling people up and just trying it and figuring it out along the way, you know.

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Wes Hoffman: Oh, yeah.

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James Dunn: Okay.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah. And I mean that that was a big thing for for us. It's like, it's it's every little step along the way. You know what I mean. I I didn't. I didn't expect us to.

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Wes Hoffman: you know, like, get some huge record label for our 1st record. I was like, even if it's just a small label. I'm happy with that. You know what I mean. And and we we really put in the work, too, like that. That's another big thing is like, you know, we we've really grinded and and went out there. And you know the 1st there, there's always times where you can be discouraged. And when we very 1st started touring, it's been 4 years ago now.

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Wes Hoffman: you know, there weren't very many people at the shows like, you know. You go play Toledo, Ohio, and Indianapolis, and and there's nobody there because nobody knows who you are, and.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: And then after a while, you you know, you go back and and you've released more music. And so more people have discovered you online. And maybe you're playing with better bands this time in those places, and it gets better. And I think a lot of people, maybe they try it, and then they give up because it's like, Oh, well, there wasn't a hundred people at our at our show for the 1st time. We've played in the city, you know, and it just doesn't work like that, you know. And and you, you also have to put in the work. Okay, I remember what I remember what I was going to say now.

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James Dunn: Where'd you go?

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Wes Hoffman: I had to ramble for a minute for it to come.

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Wes Hoffman: I started thinking about like.

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Wes Hoffman: what? What do I think? And this is a think and grow rich thing like, what do I think?

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Wes Hoffman: A

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Wes Hoffman: a musician who is signed to a record label and touring the country? What do they? What do they do

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Wes Hoffman: all the time? And I was like, well, they probably write songs

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Wes Hoffman: much as they can. They put a ton of time and energy into writing songs, writing good songs? I started looking at like, what is it about the bands that I like that, you know? Why do I like them. Why do I like them? And I was like, well, I like the melody. It's catchy. It sticks in my head. It's maybe a little bit technical on the guitar, so it like inspires me a little bit. They've got catchy riffs. It's maybe fast. And and I was like.

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Wes Hoffman: Well, I need to write fast catchy pop punk songs, you know, and then I was like, I need to get into the studio, and and you know, if I don't feel like they're good, then that just means I need to write more and get better at become a better songwriter. And then what do I? How do I become a better songwriter. Well, I started looking up like, there's videos on Youtube about like, Hey, here's

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Wes Hoffman: let's dissect music theory. Wise like Taylor Swift song. You know, why is this song so popular? Well, they're using this chords progression for the chorus. And they're using this chord progression for the verse. And then when they go to this to the bridge. They they go to a minor chord so you can find

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Wes Hoffman: you know. I I it. It's those types of things that I think people don't realize is they don't see that they don't see like

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Wes Hoffman: hours upon hours. I'm going to my studio later tonight. You know what I mean to write songs like I I was. I was there last night. I was there Monday night I was there, so I'm there almost every day. It's 5 min from my house. So.

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James Dunn: It's like.

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Wes Hoffman: I'm there almost every single night, working on something, you know, and I think a lot of people see the result and the outcome they see. Oh, you know, you got signed to this record label, or, Oh, you sold, you know, 500 records, or you're we got on this tour in the West coast, and they don't see how all the things behind the scenes that it took to get to that point.

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Wes Hoffman: you know what I mean. So.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah. And there's a lot. It's a lot. So time, energy, money, like, you know. And then there's times where like, it doesn't work out, and you feel really discouraged. I still struggle with that. I feel like sometimes, especially like

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Wes Hoffman: you know, in St. Louis, where I'm from like sometimes I feel like people like we go out and we play shows all over the country. We've played all over the country at this point, and you know we have great shows in other cities, and then I feel like St. Louis is our hometown, and sometimes I'm like man we should. Why are there not like

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Wes Hoffman: 300 people at our shows. You know what I mean like, why do we? Why, why can we can go to Chicago and there's a hundred people, and we we, you know, we have a a good. We have good turnouts here at home, too. We have, like a hundred 50 people. Come see our shows like on average, here in St. Louis, which is pretty good. I'm I'm happy about that, but I do find myself. Sometimes I'm like issue. We should have double that amount of people like if we, you know. And and I find myself falling into those traps sometimes. And I just have to remember, like.

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Wes Hoffman: you know, that's not necessarily like, you know, you're still doing pretty good, like.

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James Dunn: It's you have to. Yeah, really, it is hard, though, I think, like, say, because we've gotten into this society where we want instant results. We expect every time we do something that's going to be major. And I was literally thinking about this today. And, interestingly enough.

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James Dunn: in terms of music because I was listening to one of the old Genesis albums, and and it was one of those where, like I forget which album it was. But the song, turn it on is on there because, like that one popped into my head for some reason, like, Oh, man, I love that. So I'm gonna pull it up playing on spotify. And I'm listening to it. And I'm like, I'm going to listen to the whole album. And I'm listening to some of the songs like.

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James Dunn: yeah, these songs aren't as good as that song, you know. And so it's interesting when you like. You have these. I mean, Genesis is a major freaking band, you know. There's like an iconic band. But even some of their albums they've only got one or 2 what people might think, you know, are really really good songs that they really connect with but even at best, I mean, I think of

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James Dunn: there's there's very few albums that I can think of from start to finish. I'm like dude, that whole fucking thing, rocks there is, you know, unless unless it's 1 of your all time favorite bands. But if you just listen to bands that you're kind of into, if you listen to most of their albums, you're gonna find maybe 3, 4 or 5 songs at best, and the rest are going okay.

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Wes Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, it's it's so much different now with music, too, because

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Wes Hoffman: bands can get by without putting out full length albums, you know, because with spotify you can put out one song, and and or you know, 5 songs and like you like you said, if there, if you have 3 or 4 really good songs. You can just put out those songs.

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James Dunn: And then.

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Wes Hoffman: People like Oh, my God! Every song they put out so good! Well, back in the day like you, you know, that wasn't how the music industry worked. It was like you put out full albums, and that's what people bought. And you really had to try to make sure that all the songs on the album were good so that you know, or that they were at least arranged in a way.

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James Dunn: It's like.

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Wes Hoffman: Okay, we, you know. I listened to Hootie and the blowfish cracked rear review slide A is.

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Wes Hoffman: I mean, I listen to the whole thing, and I and I I that was one of the 1st tapes that I ever bought when I was a kid back in like 1994. But.

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James Dunn: Yeah.

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Wes Hoffman: And I loved it. But like side A is is miles

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Wes Hoffman: better than side. B. You know what I mean, and

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Wes Hoffman: but it's like you, you could. You could kind of arrange the song. Sometimes it'd be like, Okay, the 1st one's really good, and then the next 2 aren't that great. But then this is another hit single. So you listen to those 2 to get to the next one, and and we didn't. You know, I mean.

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Wes Hoffman: we had Cds, and you could skip songs and stuff like that. But like, when you had tapes and stuff like you, you, it was harder to skip to the next song. You know you kind of just listen to the whole thing.

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James Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. And I think back to. So when I was growing up, kiss was my favorite band, and for a period of

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James Dunn: Let's see. Their 1st album came out in 74, and probably through at least 78. They put out at least 2 albums a year, you know, which was insane. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes one of those will be in a like, you know, a live album, and sometimes one of those would be a compilation album, but, like in 78, they put out like a greatest hits album, and they also put out like 4 individual solo albums, like every member of the band had their own solo album out. So yeah, I mean, they they were writing songs left and fucking right man. It was insane back in the day. But

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James Dunn: yeah, it's it's crazy. You just gotta do it. So speaking of the band as we wind this down share with people where they can find out about more about you, more about the band and what you guys got going on. And if there's anything you want to promote and tell people about specifically, you know.

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James Dunn: I I will give you a heads up. I didn't mention this beforehand. We're probably a month or so out before this will actually drop. But even if you just want to put it out there, let people know what you got going on.

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Wes Hoffman: Absolutely so if you want to find us the the place where I do the most like posting, and all that is

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Wes Hoffman: just on Instagram at Wesley, Hoffman.

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Wes Hoffman: that's kind of my main place where I I post videos and I post about our shows.

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Wes Hoffman: and then we do have. Let's see, next week we are playing in St. Louis here at the Blueberry Hill Duck Room with a band called Real Friends. They're based out of Chicago. They're a national touring. They act so we're really excited to play with them. It's gonna be. It will be very close to being sold out if it's not sold out so.

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James Dunn: Awesome.

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Wes Hoffman: That there will be 300 people at that show.

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Wes Hoffman: It's not our show. So we're really excited about that. And then next

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Wes Hoffman: Friday, May 23, rd we're playing in Philadelphia, and then we're playing in New York City on the 24.th So then, if if this comes out in a month from now we have a tour starting on June 18.th We're doing Oklahoma City, Kansas City.

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Wes Hoffman: St. Louis, Milwaukee, and Chicago. And then that's Gonna be our last tour, for we have one more tour in October.

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Wes Hoffman: Of just a short run for 4 days. But yeah, we're taking a little bit of a break. We have a new album coming out so like, you know the reason why we were hitting so hitting the road so hard for the last like year and a half is we had. We had a new album that came out last year, and we were. We've been promoting that, and now, we're kind of like we're gonna take a little bit of a break. We're going to do some music videos. We're gonna

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Wes Hoffman: you know, start promoting the the release of the new album, and and release some singles from that tour at the end of the year. So.

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James Dunn: Awesome man. It's gonna be exciting. I'm looking forward to hearing it, looking forward to following you more and more in your journey as I've shared, man. I just love watching you getting out there and living the rock and roll dream, because that was something in my mind that I wanted to do as a kid, but I didn't push forward. I was a kid that just stayed in my garage and played guitar for me, and wouldn't let anybody see me hear me anything. I was too afraid to talk to anybody like I literally, I can think back to as a kid, having like

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James Dunn: I think there was only 2 times I ever played with somebody else.

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James Dunn: and I remember vividly going over to some dude's house, and he and I were sitting there kind of playing around, and his dad happened to come walking through, and I fucked up what I was playing, and

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James Dunn: and and the dad made some comment I was like, Yes, kinda it's hard for me to play in front of people it's like, and he well, I said, it's hard for me to play in front of people. He's like, you're gonna have a hard time being a rock and roll Star. If that's the case, I'm like, Oh, shit! You're right man. Oh, no! So that kind of ended it for me right there I was like, dang, man, I can't do this.

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Wes Hoffman: Man.

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James Dunn: But yeah, I get to live vicariously through you, man, so keep it up. I love I love what you're doing, so let me let me hit you with one final question before we wrap this up. West Hoffman. How do you define? Unstoppable in your own words?

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Wes Hoffman: Oh, what comes to my mind is is pushing through the doubts.

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James Dunn: Hmm.

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Wes Hoffman: You know, pushing through the doubts, blocking through the hate, blocking out the haters like any of those things like I saw something actually, fairly recently, that was like.

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Wes Hoffman: I I do listen to a lot of there's so much like self help and psychological and stuff on Youtube. Now that I do. I go on long walks on my lunch break, and I listen to this kind of stuff, and it was like

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Wes Hoffman: for a long time for me. I worried. I worried way too much about what other people thought about me, you know, and I don't know where that I have. I have thought about this a lot, and I don't know where that

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Wes Hoffman: it's not even really a fear.

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Wes Hoffman: It's it's more, it's I don't. I don't know where it comes from because I still do what I want to do, no matter what.

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Wes Hoffman: but but I think, you know it. The the video or the quote was kind of saying, like, when you start doing the things that you want to do for you, you start. Can you stop caring about what anybody else thinks you know what I mean, and you don't use when you start to realize, like you don't have to explain yourself to anybody. You don't have to.

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Wes Hoffman: you know. Give reason like, when you let go of all that, you kind of become unstoppable because you're just doing it. And you know a lot of. I've also kind of realized that there's probably there's there's people out there that don't like me that I don't even know that they don't like me. You know what I mean, and I can't do anything about the fact that they don't like me, and

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Wes Hoffman: you know I could do everything I could to try to get them to like me, and they still might not like me. But you know, so I've kind of just come to terms with that like.

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Wes Hoffman: there's just gonna be people out there that like don't like you. And a lot of times it has to do with

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Wes Hoffman: their own feelings about themselves like you're reflecting. Something. Something about you is reflecting back to them, something that they feel about themselves, or something they disagree with, or something that they haven't dealt with. And so yeah, that's that's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately and working through.

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James Dunn: No, I love that man, I love that, and I mean a perfect example would be if I resented you, because you are living my rock and roll fantasy. They could be somebody who was saying like, Screw that guy man what gives him the right to go out there and do that. And and yeah, so if you're not friends with Wes Hoffman, I don't know who the fuck you are, man, you're stupid people. You're not my kind of people. And you should be listening

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James Dunn: this podcast so with that, we'll go ahead and wrap this up. Thanks again. Wes. So much.

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Wes Hoffman: Thank you.

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James Dunn: With that. Everybody get out there. Have an amazing fucking day, and we'll see you next time.

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Wes Hoffman: Alright! See ya.