{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1.41,"endTime":5.52,"body":"Anti-aging brings to mind this sort of crusade against death, which a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":5.52,"endTime":7.17,"body":"immortalists, that's what they see they're doing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":7.17,"endTime":11.71,"body":"And they're going to cure everyone of dying, aging healthier, aging better."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":11.73,"endTime":15.15,"body":"That is something that we've always tried to do because that's what medicine does,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":15.15,"endTime":15.9,"body":"essentially."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":18.45,"endTime":23.79,"body":"Peter Ward is the author of The Price of Immortality: The Race to Live Forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":24.09,"endTime":27.84,"body":"The Search for eternal life is as old as humanity itself."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":27.84,"endTime":30.78,"body":"But could Silicon Valley be on to something?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":31.11,"endTime":34.41,"body":"Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":34.41,"endTime":39.86,"body":"I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity."},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":39.87,"endTime":62.14,"body":"This"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":62.14,"endTime":62.26,"body":"episode is brought to you in association with Clinique La Prairie, the award winning spa"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":62.26,"endTime":62.39,"body":"clinic and pioneering health and wellness destination nestled on the shores of Lake"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":62.39,"endTime":62.53,"body":"Geneva in Montreux, Switzerland. Combining preventative medicine with bespoke lifestyle"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":62.53,"endTime":62.64,"body":"and nutrition plans, Clinique La Prairie offers a holistic approach to living fuller,"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR MESSAGE","startTime":62.64,"endTime":62.7,"body":"healthier and longer lives."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":63.99,"endTime":69.84,"body":"Peter Ward's book dives into the quest to make humans immortal the efforts of tech"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":69.84,"endTime":75.03,"body":"visionaries, scam artists, pseudo scientists and religious fanatics."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":75.03,"endTime":79.03,"body":"What are we to believe and should we take any of it seriously?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":79.05,"endTime":82.23,"body":"Peter, welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":82.26,"endTime":83.94,"body":"Thanks, Peter. It's great to be on the show."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":83.94,"endTime":89.34,"body":"And the title of our podcast, Live Long and Master Aging hopefully sets us aside a little"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":89.34,"endTime":91.98,"body":"bit from those who are pursuing endless life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":91.98,"endTime":95.95,"body":"Fascinating though I find it, and clearly you find it interesting as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":95.97,"endTime":99.81,"body":"What I aspire to is simply living as long as possible with the best of health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":99.81,"endTime":106.98,"body":"But this sphere of longevity, of aging, is so broad now that it encompasses so many"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":106.98,"endTime":109.9,"body":"different disciplines. I think it can be confusing to people, can't it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":109.92,"endTime":111.15,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":111.15,"endTime":116.4,"body":"So like you said, there's people that like yourself which have extremely sort of logical"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":116.4,"endTime":119.79,"body":"pursuits of trying to make us live healthier lives for longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":120.06,"endTime":122.91,"body":"And then and then it just covers this broad spectrum."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":122.91,"endTime":126.69,"body":"And at the far end of it is the people that think they're going to live forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":127.11,"endTime":131.58,"body":"And I think one of the one of the issues with having that broad spectrum and having"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":131.58,"endTime":136.95,"body":"people at both ends of it is that sometimes and we've all seen this with headlines in"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":136.95,"endTime":142.47,"body":"newspapers and on websites where everything is a way to live forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":142.47,"endTime":147.52,"body":"It's a cure for death or a way to make us live until we're 500."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":147.54,"endTime":153.06,"body":"And what I found firstly was was a lot of the gerontologists that I spoke to were"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":153.06,"endTime":158.79,"body":"extremely frustrated by the claims that we could be immortal, and they found it actually"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":158.79,"endTime":160.56,"body":"quite detrimental to their work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":161.13,"endTime":167.01,"body":"And then on the other side of it either puts people off because they think it's crazy and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":167.01,"endTime":172.8,"body":"so they miss out on real things that can help them live healthier lives."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":174.03,"endTime":178.5,"body":"And then there's also the funding question as well, that some things don't get funding,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":179.61,"endTime":185.16,"body":"the funding that they should get, because they're sort of lumped into this this group of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":185.16,"endTime":188.77,"body":"things which which people say will make you immortal."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":188.79,"endTime":194.22,"body":"I think it's a huge source of frustration, especially working in health and the medical"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":194.22,"endTime":200.31,"body":"sphere that so much is spent on trying to live forever, as opposed to perhaps tackling"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":200.31,"endTime":202.98,"body":"some of the critical diseases of today."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":202.98,"endTime":208.41,"body":"Yeah, I think the good news with that is that a lot of the paths towards so called"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":208.41,"endTime":214.26,"body":"immortality, if that was ever possible, the research does send you down the same route as"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":214.41,"endTime":215.7,"body":"increasing healthspan."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":215.7,"endTime":219.21,"body":"So when people say, you know, I'm going to live forever, I'm going to spend X amount of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":219.21,"endTime":224.67,"body":"money to do it inevitably because there is no way of living forever that we know of and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":224.67,"endTime":226.08,"body":"possibly never will be."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":226.5,"endTime":229.83,"body":"They're always sort of funneled down this path and they always end up with the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":229.83,"endTime":233.19,"body":"gerontologist and the people trying to reverse aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":233.31,"endTime":237.57,"body":"So a good deal of money from even from people who claim, you know, that we're going to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":237.57,"endTime":241.59,"body":"live, that we can't live forever, people like Aubrey de Grey, the money that he raises"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":241.71,"endTime":247.17,"body":"does actually end up with scientists who are treating aging as a disease and who are"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":247.17,"endTime":251.52,"body":"looking to reverse and to and to ease some of the symptoms of aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":251.64,"endTime":256.2,"body":"So right now, it is good that a lot of money goes away, but of course, a lot of money"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":256.2,"endTime":258.15,"body":"also goes into bizarre things."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":258.15,"endTime":259.53,"body":"You know, that are long shots."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":259.53,"endTime":263.82,"body":"So there's a huge amount of money, for example, goes into cryonics, which does not help"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":263.82,"endTime":265.62,"body":"anybody in terms of aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":265.62,"endTime":267.69,"body":"And there's no proof that will ever actually work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":267.69,"endTime":273.0,"body":"So all that money, you could say, if you were a sort of anti-aging advocate, you'd say"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":273.0,"endTime":274.65,"body":"that's kind of going down a black hole."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":274.65,"endTime":279.48,"body":"But I would say the majority of it actually, and a lot of the Silicon Valley money is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":279.48,"endTime":281.76,"body":"going into sort of worthy causes."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":281.88,"endTime":283.44,"body":"It's just whether they have the same goal."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":283.44,"endTime":288.42,"body":"If you look at say Calico, the Google Company, a lot of the research and studies coming"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":288.42,"endTime":291.54,"body":"out of there is actually addressing cancer, not living forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":291.54,"endTime":292.74,"body":"So it's doing good work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":292.74,"endTime":294.78,"body":"It's just not doing the work that it said it would do essentially."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":294.81,"endTime":299.22,"body":"Just before we delve further into some of those issues that you just raised, that what"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":299.31,"endTime":301.23,"body":"spearheaded your interest in this area?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":301.23,"endTime":307.27,"body":"Was there something in your life that happened that made you interested in longevity or"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":307.29,"endTime":308.28,"body":"even eternal life?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":308.4,"endTime":309.6,"body":"So I wrote a book."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":309.6,"endTime":311.22,"body":"My first book was about space."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":311.34,"endTime":313.26,"body":"It was about the privatization of space."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":313.44,"endTime":318.24,"body":"And for that book I interviewed a lot of people who are space fanatics who want to see us"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":318.24,"endTime":323.61,"body":"go out into the universe and and live on on different planets and populate the rest of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":323.61,"endTime":328.26,"body":"the solar system. And a big question that they always come up against is, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":328.26,"endTime":329.97,"body":"can't go anywhere because you'll die on the way."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":329.97,"endTime":333.06,"body":"Essentially, it's too far to find another habitable planet."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":333.24,"endTime":337.32,"body":"So there's this huge crossover between sort of people who want to live forever and people"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":337.32,"endTime":339.39,"body":"want to go into space. It's always a question."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":339.39,"endTime":341.19,"body":"It's always the way that they answer the question."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":341.19,"endTime":342.66,"body":"What about overpopulation?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":342.66,"endTime":344.58,"body":"It's that we'll go to the planets."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":344.58,"endTime":347.28,"body":"So that's what sort of got me into this crowd."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":347.28,"endTime":349.56,"body":"And I started to think this is a really interesting topic."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":349.56,"endTime":352.71,"body":"And then I heard about the Church of Perpetual Life in Florida."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":352.71,"endTime":357.78,"body":"So I thought, okay, I have to go down there and meet these people and see my my first"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":357.78,"endTime":363.83,"body":"thought was, is this for real or is this some kind of tax avoidance scheme, which I think"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":363.83,"endTime":368.83,"body":"to be fair, a lot of people ask the same question, but there absolutely are genuine and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":368.87,"endTime":369.98,"body":"they want to do this."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":369.98,"endTime":372.17,"body":"And so, yeah, that's how I got into it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":372.17,"endTime":376.67,"body":"And actually, I mean, to be fair, I met a lot of really lovely and nice people along the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":376.67,"endTime":380.78,"body":"way in the immortality crowd that just wanted to to live a bit longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":380.78,"endTime":387.41,"body":"And you referred to just now as some people seeing aging itself as a disease."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":387.41,"endTime":391.46,"body":"I know there's a huge amount of controversy over that very simple statement."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":391.46,"endTime":394.64,"body":"Based on your studies of this, do you get that?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":394.64,"endTime":396.89,"body":"Do you see aging as a disease?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":396.89,"endTime":398.57,"body":"I can, certainly, yeah."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":398.57,"endTime":401.63,"body":"I think on balance, I came around to that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":401.63,"endTime":405.65,"body":"I thought that was a completely evidence based statement."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":405.65,"endTime":410.99,"body":"I think if we start looking at aging as a sort of condition, as something that makes the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":410.99,"endTime":416.42,"body":"conditions inside the body, that makes them perfect for diseases to flourish."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":416.63,"endTime":421.4,"body":"So, I mean, the old the old study, I think it's a really old study now, that said, if we"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":421.43,"endTime":425.6,"body":"cure cancer and if we cure heart disease, then we'll still only raise life expectancy by"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":425.6,"endTime":427.93,"body":"I think it was five or ten years or something."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":427.94,"endTime":428.19,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":428.57,"endTime":432.38,"body":"No one's followed up that study for a very long time, so I'm not sure how relevant it"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":432.38,"endTime":437.54,"body":"still is. But I do think if we started looking at aging, I think we have to look at aging"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":437.89,"endTime":442.85,"body":"as a disease because of the demographic shift that the population that many countries are"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":442.85,"endTime":447.71,"body":"seeing. We're going to have so many issues with people too old to work and essentially"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":447.71,"endTime":449.18,"body":"too expensive to look after."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":449.18,"endTime":454.01,"body":"And so the more that we look at aging as an overall problem, rather than just try and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":454.01,"endTime":458.99,"body":"sort of cure people's individual symptoms of aging, then I think that's probably a better"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":458.99,"endTime":462.35,"body":"way to look at it. The problem is whenever someone tries to get sort of funding for"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":462.35,"endTime":466.16,"body":"anything towards aging that they're hit with, Oh, you're crazy, you're trying to make us"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":466.16,"endTime":469.1,"body":"live forever. So it's a complicated one."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":469.1,"endTime":471.65,"body":"That's my problem with aging as a disease."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":471.65,"endTime":476.9,"body":"And what I try to do in this podcast is explain some of the issues in very simple terms,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":476.9,"endTime":481.91,"body":"or at least simple enough for most people to to get it without coming away with the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":481.91,"endTime":484.13,"body":"impression that it's all just crazy."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":484.13,"endTime":488.48,"body":"And when you start talking about aging as a disease, I think that is the tipping point"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":488.48,"endTime":493.94,"body":"for some people into that sort of craziness area, that aging for a lot of people is"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":493.94,"endTime":495.02,"body":"simply getting older."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":495.02,"endTime":500.84,"body":"It's the passage of time, it's the number of years, it's chronological age that frankly,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":500.84,"endTime":502.27,"body":"none of us can do anything about."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":502.28,"endTime":503.6,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":503.6,"endTime":508.49,"body":"And if you think about what aging does, it's hundreds of things and thousands of things,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":508.49,"endTime":510.98,"body":"maybe hundreds of thousand things happening inside your body."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":510.98,"endTime":514.64,"body":"At the same time, things are not working as they should be."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":514.64,"endTime":516.14,"body":"There's so many different parts."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":516.26,"endTime":520.1,"body":"The hallmarks of aging, which I went into in the book, are extremely complex."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":520.25,"endTime":524.27,"body":"And so in one way you're saying, you know, aging is a disease, is a is a good thing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":524.27,"endTime":529.34,"body":"And another it does oversimplify the problem of aging, because declaring a disease"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":529.34,"endTime":532.79,"body":"suggests that there will be a cure for that disease or maybe one cure."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":532.79,"endTime":535.94,"body":"But there's no way you could cure aging with one."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":536.0,"endTime":539.15,"body":"There's never going to be a sort of one silver bullet solution."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":539.15,"endTime":543.5,"body":"It's thousands of things going wrong in your body because we're genetically coded to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":543.5,"endTime":545.27,"body":"deteriorate and eventually die."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":545.57,"endTime":552.14,"body":"They sort of call it the whack-a-mole issue is that you could solve 99 things associated"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":552.14,"endTime":556.07,"body":"with aging and then but there'll be 100th one and that's the one that will kill you."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":556.4,"endTime":559.79,"body":"I can see why people sort of go away from that, because I think it does oversimplify it,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":559.79,"endTime":563.84,"body":"but and it also does take you into the realms of almost fantasy, I guess."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":563.97,"endTime":569.36,"body":"And while we're on the subject or broadly on the subject, anti-aging or anti-aging is"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":569.36,"endTime":574.49,"body":"people here in this country say that's another term that I think ultimately isn't very"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":574.49,"endTime":574.94,"body":"helpful."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":574.94,"endTime":581.03,"body":"Yeah. So there's a lot of terms thrown around and I sort of try to not use them"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":581.03,"endTime":582.14,"body":"interchangeably in my book."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":582.14,"endTime":583.47,"body":"I'm not sure if they're successful."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":583.47,"endTime":584.42,"body":"And I think you were successful."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":584.42,"endTime":585.65,"body":"Yeah, okay, that's good."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":585.65,"endTime":590.18,"body":"But yeah, anti-aging brings to mind this sort of crusade against death, which a lot of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":590.18,"endTime":591.95,"body":"the immortals, that's what they see they're doing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":591.95,"endTime":595.01,"body":"It's a really is like this is the thing that they're doing is a battle."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":595.01,"endTime":598.58,"body":"They're waging war against death and they're going to cure everyone of dying."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":598.91,"endTime":602.75,"body":"And I think anti-aging, it doesn't bring about the best of connotations."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":602.75,"endTime":604.4,"body":"It's, you know, we are aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":604.4,"endTime":608.87,"body":"That's fine. That's the most natural thing in the world for an organism to do its age."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":608.87,"endTime":613.79,"body":"And there's huge evolutionary reasons why we should age and eventually die."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":613.79,"endTime":617.15,"body":"So to say sort of anti-aging is sort of going against nature."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":617.15,"endTime":620.87,"body":"It's going against science, aging, healthier, aging better."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":620.87,"endTime":624.38,"body":"That is something that we've always tried to do because that's what medicine does"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":624.38,"endTime":629.39,"body":"essentially, the majority of medicine has always been about helping us stay healthier for"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":629.39,"endTime":629.86,"body":"longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":629.87,"endTime":634.22,"body":"You mentioned cryonics just now and dismissed it in the same breath, and that's"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":634.22,"endTime":636.59,"body":"essentially what you do in the book."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":636.59,"endTime":641.09,"body":"Maybe we could just go back for those who aren't fully au fait with what cryonics is,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":641.33,"endTime":645.98,"body":"what is it or what does is it aspire to be, and why do you dismiss it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":646.01,"endTime":651.68,"body":"Cryonics is basically the theory that if you freeze a body at the point of death, then and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":651.68,"endTime":654.92,"body":"you keep it cryogenically frozen, you keep it in certain conditions."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":654.92,"endTime":659.6,"body":"Then at some point in the future, a technology will emerge where they can rejuvenate that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":659.6,"endTime":663.72,"body":"body, they can bring it back to life, and then you'll get a sort of second life as it"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":663.72,"endTime":668.79,"body":"were. And so I spent a lot of time with the cryonics people and spoke to a lot of them."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":668.79,"endTime":671.52,"body":"And I mean, they all readily admit themselves."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":671.52,"endTime":674.66,"body":"There is no scientific evidence that suggests this will work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":674.67,"endTime":677.66,"body":"And a lot of them even says there's not a very good chance this will work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":677.67,"endTime":682.32,"body":"There's a 1% chance there's a 0.1% chance this will work, and they'll admit that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":682.32,"endTime":684.06,"body":"themselves quite, quite freely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":684.36,"endTime":689.97,"body":"Their argument is, well, I'm dead anyway, so why wouldn't I take the 0.1% chance rather"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":689.97,"endTime":692.58,"body":"than the 0% chance and be cremated or buried?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":693.09,"endTime":698.39,"body":"The reason why why I dismiss it ultimately and, you know, I could be proved wrong."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":698.4,"endTime":702.27,"body":"Obviously, there's no you can never say 100% that something won't work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":702.36,"endTime":705.72,"body":"But the reason why I dismissed it after sort of talking to them, after going into a lot,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":705.75,"endTime":709.77,"body":"is that I think they have reached the point where they put too much emphasis on that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":709.77,"endTime":711.0,"body":"future technology."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":711.0,"endTime":715.08,"body":"So they they think that future scientists will figure out a way to bring this back to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":715.08,"endTime":717.27,"body":"life. And they're putting too much faith."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":717.27,"endTime":719.46,"body":"And ultimately it becomes a question of faith."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":719.46,"endTime":724.5,"body":"And that's too far away from science for my liking personally, when you have to take that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":724.5,"endTime":726.27,"body":"leap of faith to believe in it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":726.75,"endTime":728.13,"body":"I don't think it will work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":728.13,"endTime":731.13,"body":"But then it's the easiest thing in the world to say something won't work."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":731.13,"endTime":733.47,"body":"So I still wish them luck."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":733.47,"endTime":738.69,"body":"And I think it would be a great thing if we did find a way to at least freeze people"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":738.69,"endTime":741.68,"body":"while we can't address a disease and bring them back to life when we can."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":741.69,"endTime":747.81,"body":"And you make the interesting point that cryogenics is unfair to the relatives of those"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":747.81,"endTime":751.98,"body":"people who want to be cryopreserved, which I hadn't thought about."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":751.98,"endTime":757.59,"body":"But I think you're absolutely right, because it creates huge dilemmas and perhaps false"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":757.59,"endTime":758.4,"body":"hope as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":758.43,"endTime":759.66,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":759.66,"endTime":764.85,"body":"It causes a lot it can cause a lot of friction within families because a lot of the times"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":764.85,"endTime":769.26,"body":"people take out a sort of second life insurance policy, which when they die, it pays out"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":769.26,"endTime":771.72,"body":"to the cyonics company to look after them."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":772.14,"endTime":777.63,"body":"So if you're a sort of family member and you see this $300,000 payout, which goes to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":777.63,"endTime":782.33,"body":"other company, and perhaps you didn't get as much as you wanted or need, or if one member"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":782.33,"endTime":785.88,"body":"of the family didn't get their inheritance, then that can cause a lot of friction."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":785.91,"endTime":790.74,"body":"Another argument is that it takes away the sort of tools that we've grown accustomed to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":790.74,"endTime":791.88,"body":"in dealing with death."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":791.88,"endTime":798.06,"body":"So you don't really have, you can't really, I guess, accept that the relative is gone in"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":798.06,"endTime":800.73,"body":"the same way as if you buried them or cremated them."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":800.76,"endTime":803.88,"body":"It's quite an invasive procedure that happens."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":803.88,"endTime":807.19,"body":"And then obviously, you know, you don't have that funeral."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":807.21,"endTime":810.81,"body":"I mean, I guess you could still have a funeral, but the person would still think that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":810.81,"endTime":811.86,"body":"they'd be coming back to life."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":811.89,"endTime":816.51,"body":"It definitely complicates death and that's hard enough to deal with already, I think."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":816.51,"endTime":822.27,"body":"So it can be tough on relatives and especially ones that just don't know why they did it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":822.27,"endTime":826.41,"body":"And a lot of people don't know about cryonics at all until the moment where they realize"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":826.41,"endTime":828.07,"body":"that a relative has signed up to it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":828.09,"endTime":830.69,"body":"This is the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":830.7,"endTime":831.89,"body":"My guest is Peter Ward."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":831.9,"endTime":836.82,"body":"Peter is the author of a fascinating new book Exploring the Race to Live Forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":836.85,"endTime":841.95,"body":"Peter, you've already mentioned some of the Silicon Valley companies that are involved in"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":841.95,"endTime":847.68,"body":"this sphere with pretty high hopes and expectations as to what they could possibly"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":847.68,"endTime":853.65,"body":"discover. There haven't, to my knowledge, been any significantly huge breakthroughs yet."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":853.65,"endTime":856.44,"body":"But first of all, why Silicon Valley?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":856.65,"endTime":859.14,"body":"Is it just that the money is there for this kind of thing?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":859.17,"endTime":860.67,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a lot of it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":860.67,"endTime":864.36,"body":"But I think it's it's the right people with with the right amount of money."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":864.39,"endTime":866.37,"body":"It's the people that are future focused."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":866.37,"endTime":868.24,"body":"They all grew up watching Star Trek."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":868.26,"endTime":872.73,"body":"They're all sort of nerdy, geeky guys, which, you know, I'm not saying is a bad thing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":872.73,"endTime":878.19,"body":"I'd class myself as a nerdy, geeky guy myself, but I think it's the kind of people that,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":878.19,"endTime":882.54,"body":"you know, the Silicon Valley sort of mantra is, you know, basically nothing is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":882.54,"endTime":887.07,"body":"impossible. And they have lots of them move fast and break things and things like that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":887.31,"endTime":893.88,"body":"So it's the perfect sort of timing for this money and also which the technology sector is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":893.88,"endTime":896.11,"body":"the most powerful in the world right now, I think."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":896.13,"endTime":897.48,"body":"I don't think you can really deny that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":897.48,"endTime":903.0,"body":"So it's people with a lot of money and on the whole sort of libertarian leanings, which"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":903.0,"endTime":908.13,"body":"helps. And then also just this fascination with all things sort of science fiction and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":908.13,"endTime":912.18,"body":"wanting to change the world and what would be the the biggest way to change the world."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":912.18,"endTime":914.97,"body":"And that, I guess, would be to stop people dying."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":915.24,"endTime":920.07,"body":"It's definitely ego massaging in some cases and others like, what do you do when you've"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":920.07,"endTime":922.57,"body":"got all the money in the world and you can do anything?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":922.59,"endTime":925.92,"body":"What's the one thing that you can't buy is is more time."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":925.92,"endTime":928.38,"body":"But I guess Silicon Valley turned around and said, well, why?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":928.38,"endTime":929.73,"body":"Why should that be the case?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":929.73,"endTime":931.67,"body":"Maybe we can buy ourselves more time."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":931.68,"endTime":936.69,"body":"So, yeah, it's and it's interesting because the old immortality crowd used to be quite"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":936.69,"endTime":937.7,"body":"sort of hippie ish."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":937.71,"endTime":941.1,"body":"It used to be all sort of of this new age spirituality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":941.1,"endTime":945.42,"body":"And now you have this Silicon Valley money coming in and it's really a clash of cultures,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":945.42,"endTime":946.86,"body":"those two going up against each other."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":946.86,"endTime":948.18,"body":"It's a fascinating time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":948.18,"endTime":952.05,"body":"And I think it was you mentioned this in the book, Aubrey de Gray, who said that some of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":952.05,"endTime":957.06,"body":"these companies are simply finding things out for the sake of finding things out."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":957.09,"endTime":961.26,"body":"Is there much of a distinction between what they're doing and what the more established"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":961.26,"endTime":964.35,"body":"traditional? University research departments are doing?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":964.36,"endTime":968.95,"body":"I don't think there is a huge difference because because they are hiring en masse, the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":968.95,"endTime":972.61,"body":"academics. So it's the same people and they're giving loads of money."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":972.61,"endTime":975.51,"body":"They're just hitting the same problems that we always do."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":975.52,"endTime":979.54,"body":"When you try and cure death, the results are never going to be as spectacular as you"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":979.54,"endTime":982.81,"body":"think. They're never going to, you know, it's not going to be one day."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":983.08,"endTime":987.79,"body":"We've invented the you know, everyone drink this solution and then we'll live a bit"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":987.79,"endTime":992.8,"body":"longer. It's a strange one because obviously Google and Calico, they came out and said"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":993.37,"endTime":995.17,"body":"some very bold statements."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":995.17,"endTime":1000.63,"body":"But if you asked and I've spoken to people who knew people who work there, the scientists"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1000.9,"endTime":1006.03,"body":"just were thinking, okay, this is a great way for me to to work on this specific project."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1006.03,"endTime":1008.76,"body":"They're not thinking in terms of we're going to end death."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1008.76,"endTime":1013.8,"body":"They're just thinking, okay, well, I want to work on this specific project."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1013.8,"endTime":1016.65,"body":"Maybe it's something to do with regeneration within the body."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1016.74,"endTime":1019.92,"body":"Maybe it's a stem cell thing, maybe it's a gene therapy."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1020.13,"endTime":1024.03,"body":"So a lot of the time when this money comes in from Silicon Valley, it's just sort of it's"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1024.03,"endTime":1030.42,"body":"allocated to age researchers who don't necessarily believe in the ultimate vision of the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1030.42,"endTime":1031.5,"body":"people putting the money in."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1031.53,"endTime":1035.31,"body":"They don't believe that they can make people live forever, but they are happy to use the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1035.31,"endTime":1037.44,"body":"money to make people age better."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1037.44,"endTime":1039.09,"body":"Which I think is the key, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1039.09,"endTime":1043.62,"body":"At least that's how I see it that you've referred to this already, that a lot of this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1043.62,"endTime":1048.3,"body":"research there might be the somewhere in the future, distant future, this hope of living"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1048.3,"endTime":1051.99,"body":"forever. But a lot of this research is today focused."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1051.99,"endTime":1056.13,"body":"It is perhaps the next decade for people like you and I and diseases that we could"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1056.13,"endTime":1057.45,"body":"potentially get."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1057.45,"endTime":1062.28,"body":"I'm curious. I mean, I know this is a big question, but in terms of all of your research,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1062.28,"endTime":1067.68,"body":"is there one area of research that might have that ultimate immortality kind of goal, but"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1067.68,"endTime":1073.05,"body":"it is actually reaping rewards today or potentially reaping rewards in terms of helping"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1073.05,"endTime":1075.24,"body":"us live better today and tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1075.24,"endTime":1079.05,"body":"I don't think there is anything that bridges those two things."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1079.05,"endTime":1080.49,"body":"And I think that's part of the problem."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1080.55,"endTime":1084.99,"body":"And that's part of why the scam artists and everything they work so well because there's"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1084.99,"endTime":1088.41,"body":"great promise and then there's no actual there's nothing palpable."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1088.41,"endTime":1093.21,"body":"So they can easily prey on people because they they've got that promise, but they don't"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1093.21,"endTime":1095.49,"body":"they can offer something that doesn't do what they say."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1095.97,"endTime":1099.48,"body":"There are some really areas of research which I found fascinating."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1099.48,"endTime":1103.38,"body":"There's things like the intermittent fasting and what that does to your cells and how it"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1103.38,"endTime":1107.25,"body":"makes them, you know, puts them into a state where they think they need to regenerate."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1107.37,"endTime":1109.41,"body":"I found that sort of really interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1109.41,"endTime":1113.28,"body":"I wouldn't recommend it to anyone because I wouldn't recommend anyone to fast without"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1113.4,"endTime":1115.59,"body":"seriously consulting their doctor beforehand."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1115.89,"endTime":1119.79,"body":"But if there was a way to sort of mimic fasting within the body, then obviously that"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1119.79,"endTime":1123.63,"body":"could do great things for our health because it's clear that it does do good things for"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1123.63,"endTime":1129.24,"body":"the body. There's some amazing work being done in senolytics, treating either getting rid"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1129.24,"endTime":1132.3,"body":"of senolytic cells, which you find might not be a great idea if you do get rid of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1132.54,"endTime":1137.49,"body":"senolytic cells, that sort of zombie like cells that accumulate as cells die, and when"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1137.49,"endTime":1142.44,"body":"they do become in that zombie state, they secrete proteins which damage pretty much"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1142.44,"endTime":1146.94,"body":"everything around them. So one of the areas of research is to find a way to stop them"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1146.94,"endTime":1152.16,"body":"secreting those proteins, which are damaging to the tissue, to anything inside the body."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1152.16,"endTime":1156.21,"body":"And that could actually be done without sort of big pharma potentially."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1156.21,"endTime":1160.89,"body":"There could be ways of doing that on the sort of supplement side rather than an even"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1160.89,"endTime":1165.66,"body":"natural ways, rather than going through Big Pharma, which is another sort of concern of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1165.66,"endTime":1170.85,"body":"of if we did find a cure for aging, then would we all be able to afford it anyway?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1170.85,"endTime":1176.31,"body":"Right. Just going back to fasting and I'll express an interest here as someone who has"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1176.31,"endTime":1181.92,"body":"been a subject in clinical trials looking at different fasting regimes and especially"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1181.92,"endTime":1184.23,"body":"fasting mimicking regimes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1184.38,"endTime":1186.69,"body":"The University of Southern California, Dr."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1186.69,"endTime":1190.65,"body":"Valter Longo, has done a lot of work on this, and we've had him as a guest and and others"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1190.65,"endTime":1193.12,"body":"and talked in some detail about this."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1193.12,"endTime":1196.38,"body":"One thing. And you referred to intermittent fasting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1196.38,"endTime":1201.99,"body":"One thing that sort of niggles me often is the use of that term and how vague it is and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1201.99,"endTime":1207.54,"body":"how it can mean to different people, lots of different kinds of regimes that really have"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1207.54,"endTime":1209.19,"body":"very little to do with each other."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1209.19,"endTime":1212.43,"body":"It could be an intermittent two days a week fasting regime."},{"speaker":"It could be a 16","startTime":1212.43,"endTime":1216.66,"body":"8, which is more like time restricted eating."},{"speaker":"It could be a 23","startTime":1216.66,"endTime":1220.5,"body":"1 you fast for 23 hours, you eat for 1 hour."},{"speaker":"It could be a 23","startTime":1220.59,"endTime":1221.88,"body":"You see what I'm getting at?"},{"speaker":"It could be a 23","startTime":1221.88,"endTime":1227.25,"body":"It covers a vast area of interventions, which ultimately I think is quite confusing to"},{"speaker":"It could be a 23","startTime":1227.25,"endTime":1227.82,"body":"people."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1227.82,"endTime":1228.99,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1228.99,"endTime":1233.82,"body":"And I think intermittent fasting has become this sort of - it's a it's a sort of buzzy"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1233.82,"endTime":1235.29,"body":"word. It's a it's a buzz word."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1235.29,"endTime":1238.68,"body":"And a lot of people presumably think they're doing it and they're not."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1238.68,"endTime":1243.96,"body":"And I think it's it's because it's not - it's an intervention, but it's not a medical"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1243.96,"endTime":1246.03,"body":"intervention. It's a diet."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1246.03,"endTime":1249.21,"body":"So and diets have always been hard to sort of regulate."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1249.21,"endTime":1253.95,"body":"You can tell anyone to do anything if you say you're a dietician, but there's just huge"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1253.95,"endTime":1255.06,"body":"amounts of potential."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1255.06,"endTime":1258.72,"body":"That's one of the areas where the gerontologist said, you know, if I'm absolutely posh"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1258.72,"endTime":1263.05,"body":"for something that's going to make you live a little bit longer aside from eat healthily"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1263.05,"endTime":1264.22,"body":"or exercise."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1264.58,"endTime":1268.02,"body":"They say. Try that look and look into that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1268.03,"endTime":1272.41,"body":"But it is difficult, like you say, because a lot of people don't know where to start and"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1272.41,"endTime":1275.62,"body":"it can be dangerous. Obviously, if you have sort of previous eating disorder, then it"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1275.62,"endTime":1277.45,"body":"could be just absolute chaos."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1277.45,"endTime":1279.34,"body":"I'll just reinforce what you just said."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1279.34,"endTime":1282.4,"body":"I wouldn't recommend fasting to anyone without speaking to your doctor."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1282.4,"endTime":1286.81,"body":"It can be hugely dangerous and it's not something you want to go into blind."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1286.81,"endTime":1290.83,"body":"You need to see if you are right for it and have your health checked out."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1290.83,"endTime":1292.39,"body":"So just that little caveat there."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1292.39,"endTime":1294.88,"body":"Don't try fasting unless you speak to your doctor."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1294.88,"endTime":1296.14,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1296.14,"endTime":1302.53,"body":"And but you can see here, just in practice, sort of maybe anybody listening at home, they"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1302.53,"endTime":1306.01,"body":"probably hear me saying, you know, maybe that's the one thing that make us live a bit"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1306.01,"endTime":1310.06,"body":"longer and something goes off in the back of your head that thinks I'm going to try it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1310.06,"endTime":1315.64,"body":"And that is sort of the appeal of immortality and the appeal of these things in practice."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1315.97,"endTime":1319.93,"body":"You can see how people really get roped into these things so quickly."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1319.93,"endTime":1323.44,"body":"Like when I was doing the research, I thought, okay, maybe I'll start trying intermittent"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1323.44,"endTime":1328.06,"body":"fasting, but a) I didn't know anything about where to start and b) I get far too grouchy"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1328.06,"endTime":1331.15,"body":"when I don't eat. So I don't think anyone could could live with me."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1331.33,"endTime":1336.22,"body":"I think, yeah, it's it's important that with anything and that's anything that people say"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1336.22,"endTime":1340.6,"body":"is going to make you live longer, that you really do consult a doctor beforehand."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1340.69,"endTime":1346.09,"body":"Ideally, someone that knows about gerontology because particularly not not so much with"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1346.09,"endTime":1352.27,"body":"intermittent fasting, but with other things like other supposed longevity interventions,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1352.9,"endTime":1354.82,"body":"there's always a side effect to it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1354.82,"endTime":1359.17,"body":"And I don't just mean you get a headache, like you can do something that'll trigger the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1359.17,"endTime":1363.04,"body":"cells to live a little bit longer, but that could also increase the chances of cancer at"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1363.04,"endTime":1367.63,"body":"the same time. And a lot of the time you just see the headlines of this this particular"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1367.63,"endTime":1371.95,"body":"supplement or this particular drug is the potentially miracle drug that could make you"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1371.95,"endTime":1376.21,"body":"live longer. But then you don't know the long term effects of that drug and you don't"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1376.21,"endTime":1379.33,"body":"know what else it could trigger within the body."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1379.84,"endTime":1385.13,"body":"There is a weird link between cancer and immortality, and again, one without the other"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1385.15,"endTime":1386.44,"body":"could be quite difficult."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1386.47,"endTime":1393.01,"body":"You write in the book that most immortal lists subscribe to the theory of biological"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1393.01,"endTime":1397.57,"body":"immortality, and that is living as long as they choose in their current bodies."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1397.57,"endTime":1402.49,"body":"And that surprised me that most immortalists will subscribe to that theory, because as"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1402.49,"endTime":1407.32,"body":"you've just implied, there are so many things that can - you only have to age, all of us"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1407.32,"endTime":1408.67,"body":"feel the effects of aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1408.67,"endTime":1412.24,"body":"There are so many things that go wrong with our bodies with time."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1412.24,"endTime":1416.02,"body":"Yeah, that is really the ultimate form of belief."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1416.02,"endTime":1419.83,"body":"So I would say it's more likely that we would have some kind of digital immortality than"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1419.83,"endTime":1421.54,"body":"a biological immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1421.54,"endTime":1425.77,"body":"You could see a path towards that, at least some form of digital immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1425.77,"endTime":1430.48,"body":"So to say that we live forever in these current bodies is a sort of astonishing claim,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1430.66,"endTime":1435.76,"body":"especially since we don't know how long the earth is going to last, how long the earth"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1435.76,"endTime":1437.56,"body":"will be habitable for."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1437.56,"endTime":1440.11,"body":"And then obviously there's just so much that can go wrong."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1440.11,"endTime":1444.55,"body":"You could you could cure aging and then get hit by a bus the next day."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1444.55,"endTime":1448.45,"body":"And so, I mean, they would say, oh, well, we'll they'll just freeze me and maybe they'll"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1448.45,"endTime":1449.5,"body":"bring me back later."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1449.71,"endTime":1454.36,"body":"But yeah, it's that is the ultimate sort of, I think hardcore immortality that says"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1454.36,"endTime":1455.95,"body":"biological immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1456.16,"endTime":1458.95,"body":"There's sort of different variants, but those are the very hardcore people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1458.95,"endTime":1463.69,"body":"And when you say digital immortality, is that what Abba are doing?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1465.34,"endTime":1467.44,"body":"Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I guess."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1467.44,"endTime":1468.76,"body":"Around the fringes maybe."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1469.45,"endTime":1474.1,"body":"Yeah, it's I guess digital immortality is yeah, it's mind uploading."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1474.1,"endTime":1478.18,"body":"It's a, it's a weird sort of offshoot of, of immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1478.18,"endTime":1480.19,"body":"It's not scientifically proven it could happen."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1480.19,"endTime":1483.19,"body":"But there's been several movies, TV shows."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1483.19,"endTime":1487.33,"body":"If you've watched any science fiction, it's about sort of being uploaded to a computer."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1487.33,"endTime":1488.35,"body":"Then you get the idea."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1488.35,"endTime":1491.11,"body":"Essentially, most of the ideas have been taken from that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1491.11,"endTime":1493.45,"body":"Right. And I do kind of joke about Abba."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1493.45,"endTime":1496.99,"body":"I suppose what they're doing is it's that digital physical immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1496.99,"endTime":1501.97,"body":"But there's no question that those those four people on that stage in London from a few"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1501.97,"endTime":1508.27,"body":"weeks ago have any kind of brain activity or brain resemblance of the real people."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1508.27,"endTime":1509.65,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1509.65,"endTime":1511.87,"body":"We all know that that's not sort of digital immortality."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1511.87,"endTime":1516.04,"body":"But even if you took it even further, even if you took all the memories of the memories"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1516.04,"endTime":1519.85,"body":"of ABBA and put them into if you took every essence of ABBA, if you took all their social"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1519.85,"endTime":1523.87,"body":"media posts, everything they'd ever written, and somehow took all the memories out of"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1523.87,"endTime":1527.14,"body":"their brain, there's still a sort of deep philosophical question whether that's just a"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1527.14,"endTime":1529.72,"body":"copy of them or if it's them living longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1529.9,"endTime":1535.78,"body":"So yeah, it's you go down some really sort of deep philosophical rabbit holes if you get"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1535.78,"endTime":1539.23,"body":"into digital immortality and what makes us human."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1539.41,"endTime":1545.8,"body":"You hear a lot these days about epigenetic clocks and biological aging versus"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1545.8,"endTime":1547.93,"body":"chronological aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1547.93,"endTime":1553.9,"body":"What do you make of this quest to essentially be biologically to be physically younger"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1553.9,"endTime":1558.55,"body":"than the calendar suggests a lot of people are paying for these services."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1558.55,"endTime":1562.79,"body":"A lot of people are trying to figure out whether they are really 42 when they're really"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1562.79,"endTime":1564.9,"body":"physically 47 or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1565.29,"endTime":1566.52,"body":"Is there any point in that?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1566.55,"endTime":1567.72,"body":"I don't think so."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1567.75,"endTime":1572.73,"body":"Personally, I think all that's going to send you down is a route to sort of obsession"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1572.73,"endTime":1577.29,"body":"with those particular biomarkers, which we can't even be sure, because they take certain"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1577.29,"endTime":1580.62,"body":"biomarkers and say how old you are within those parameters."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1580.62,"endTime":1585.21,"body":"We can't even be sure those are the definitive ones, because ultimately I think always"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1585.21,"endTime":1589.74,"body":"the way what they're going to tell you is, oh, you know, you're slightly older than your"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1589.74,"endTime":1595.2,"body":"chronological age, so you better eat more healthy and exercise and you'll get it down."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1595.23,"endTime":1600.6,"body":"I don't think any of us need to be told that eating healthy and exercising will improve"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1600.6,"endTime":1601.68,"body":"our biological age."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1601.68,"endTime":1604.23,"body":"We can all figure that out. We can all do that a little bit more."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1604.56,"endTime":1610.59,"body":"Personally, I wouldn't use them and I have seen some people write quite damning papers on"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1610.59,"endTime":1615.17,"body":"the epigenetic clocks that are out there just saying they're absolute nonsense."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1615.18,"endTime":1617.52,"body":"Some of them use some biomarkers, some of them use others."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1617.52,"endTime":1621.06,"body":"I think if anyone's charging you a huge amount of money for that, you have to really,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1621.06,"endTime":1625.5,"body":"really look into them. First of all, are they selling other stuff is a good question to"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1625.5,"endTime":1630.12,"body":"ask. Are they then going to say, you know, you're not aging well, so why don't you buy"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1630.12,"endTime":1631.82,"body":"this and you'll age better?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1631.83,"endTime":1636.87,"body":"That's a big red flag if they're going to sell you a supposed cure for whatever problem"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1636.87,"endTime":1642.15,"body":"they find. And then also, I don't yeah, I just don't think the information you get is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1642.15,"endTime":1645.06,"body":"going to be as illuminating as you think it is."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1645.06,"endTime":1649.29,"body":"What does it even mean that we're sort of five years older than our chronological age?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1649.29,"endTime":1653.64,"body":"We don't know somewhere in this is some kind of genetic code that suggests when we're"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1653.64,"endTime":1656.58,"body":"going to die. But these epigenetic clocks."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1656.58,"endTime":1658.23,"body":"I don't think it's telling us that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1658.23,"endTime":1661.77,"body":"And they can't account for things that are completely out of our control as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1661.77,"endTime":1667.32,"body":"Another aspect of longevity, I talk about this a lot and it's a source of frustration that"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1667.32,"endTime":1672.06,"body":"there is so much out there, some you can believe respected scientists, I mean, you can be"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1672.06,"endTime":1674.61,"body":"skeptical about and some you can dismiss very quickly."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1674.79,"endTime":1680.91,"body":"People are very, very confused about interventions to not only live better now, but"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1680.91,"endTime":1686.13,"body":"potentially extend the lifespan or indeed healthspan the number of years that we enjoy"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1686.13,"endTime":1687.51,"body":"the best of health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1687.51,"endTime":1691.89,"body":"And it's the confusion, I think, that puts so many people off."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1691.89,"endTime":1693.33,"body":"They say, well, I'm just not going to bother."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1693.33,"endTime":1695.39,"body":"I'm going to live and let live."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1695.7,"endTime":1696.75,"body":"Do you sense that?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1696.75,"endTime":1703.32,"body":"And is there anyone pushing back against that in the sphere of longevity and research?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1703.32,"endTime":1704.67,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1704.67,"endTime":1708.3,"body":"I think that there is definitely I got a sense of that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1708.3,"endTime":1714.24,"body":"I think when you sort of talk about living longer or or living forever in any respect,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1714.24,"endTime":1716.97,"body":"and myself included this, you kind of get attacked from all sides."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1716.97,"endTime":1720.39,"body":"You get the people that say, oh, this is nonsense, you're never going to live a bit"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1720.39,"endTime":1723.12,"body":"longer, so why don't you just stop telling me what to do?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1723.12,"endTime":1726.42,"body":"And then you also get the people that think they're going to live forever saying, Why are"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1726.42,"endTime":1729.0,"body":"you so skeptical? Why are you saying this won't work?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1729.0,"endTime":1732.84,"body":"And so you really just I mean, I try and put myself in the middle."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1732.84,"endTime":1740.1,"body":"I admit I am a skeptic and I maybe I'm too skeptical sometimes, but I think we have to do"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1740.1,"endTime":1745.29,"body":"a better job of educating people on how to go through these things and determine what is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1745.29,"endTime":1746.61,"body":"good and what is not."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1746.79,"endTime":1750.81,"body":"It's really easy to take a look at a medical paper and think, That looks amazing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1750.81,"endTime":1752.22,"body":"It's going to make me live forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1752.34,"endTime":1756.3,"body":"But look, I mean, I guess one one of the golden rules is look at what it's been."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1756.3,"endTime":1761.19,"body":"If it's been done using mice or other animals, then there's still a huge way to go for"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1761.19,"endTime":1762.51,"body":"that to be translated to humans."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1762.51,"endTime":1765.92,"body":"So that's probably not going to be something you can do anytime soon."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1766.38,"endTime":1769.14,"body":"And I think gerontologists get exactly the same as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1769.14,"endTime":1774.3,"body":"They get told that that they're going against sort of nature by trying to make us age a"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1774.3,"endTime":1777.75,"body":"little bit better. And then they also get told, Oh, why aren't you already making us live"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1777.75,"endTime":1779.88,"body":"forever by the people who want to live forever?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1779.88,"endTime":1784.95,"body":"So it's a really confusing it doesn't help that we have a sort of a media which is"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1784.95,"endTime":1789.84,"body":"generally and I hate generalizing the media because some people do this amazingly, but I"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1789.84,"endTime":1796.68,"body":"think it takes sort of newspapers and sort of general interest websites and magazines."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1796.86,"endTime":1800.52,"body":"They're not as, I guess, scientifically literate as you'd want."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1800.52,"endTime":1806.37,"body":"They do take papers and they spin them completely out of control, which is why we get"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1806.37,"endTime":1811.32,"body":"these sort of headlines saying don't eat carrots, they're going to kill you or eat as"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1811.32,"endTime":1815.28,"body":"many characters as you can because you only way to live a bit longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1815.28,"endTime":1819.27,"body":"And then I think muddying the water even, even more is the lobbyists as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1819.27,"endTime":1825.33,"body":"And just the way that the pharmaceutical industry is set up as a for profit industry,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1825.33,"endTime":1827.16,"body":"that also muddies the water completely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1827.16,"endTime":1831.42,"body":"I mean, we were told that fat was really bad for us and sugar was great for us for so"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1831.42,"endTime":1835.53,"body":"long and hopefully nothing on that scale is happening now."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1835.53,"endTime":1839.82,"body":"But how would we know? Because, you know, you have to look at who's funding the research."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1839.82,"endTime":1845.01,"body":"And and so it's really hard to get into it's really hard to get into without falling down"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1845.01,"endTime":1849.12,"body":"A) conspiracy theories of some kind or, B) just utter despair."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1849.12,"endTime":1850.53,"body":"And I'm never going to get on top of this."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1850.53,"endTime":1851.61,"body":"And so why bother?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1851.88,"endTime":1855.39,"body":"So yeah, I definitely I definitely get that sense as well and I feel it completely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1855.39,"endTime":1857.49,"body":"You pick up something to eat and you think, Should I eat this?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1857.52,"endTime":1860.13,"body":"Like, what was the latest paper?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1860.34,"endTime":1865.9,"body":"Well, I think. Through all of my looking into these different issues, I always come back"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1865.9,"endTime":1868.0,"body":"to and it's incredibly boring."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1868.0,"endTime":1872.98,"body":"But I come back to the headline that moderation in everything is probably best."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1872.98,"endTime":1877.33,"body":"And that's why you don't see that headline, because it isn't particularly exciting for a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1877.33,"endTime":1881.98,"body":"tabloid to say this is the next big new thing, that if you have a moderate diet and don't"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1881.98,"endTime":1888.61,"body":"eat too many nuts or too many eggs or whatever the food is or don't have, don't do"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1888.61,"endTime":1894.37,"body":"exercise to an extreme, but do some exercise and get a decent night's sleep most nights"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1894.37,"endTime":1896.8,"body":"of the week you're probably going to do pretty well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1896.92,"endTime":1898.42,"body":"The science is fascinating."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1898.42,"endTime":1902.5,"body":"The dietary science, the fasting diets, I think is interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1902.5,"endTime":1909.25,"body":"And I think there is some common agreement that of any of these interventions, maybe not"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1909.25,"endTime":1914.38,"body":"fasting to an extreme, but just eating less is probably the one that is going to maybe"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1914.38,"endTime":1916.45,"body":"add a few extra years to your life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1916.45,"endTime":1918.28,"body":"And again, that isn't hugely exciting."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1918.28,"endTime":1919.84,"body":"Yeah, yeah, that's yeah."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1919.84,"endTime":1921.25,"body":"I think that's exactly the problem."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1921.25,"endTime":1922.87,"body":"I think you've you've hit the nail on the head there."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1923.07,"endTime":1927.73,"body":"It's the non sensationalist solutions are actually the most effective."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1927.76,"endTime":1932.56,"body":"Yeah. I mean if you think about our bodies, if you think about in terms of evolution, our"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1932.56,"endTime":1936.04,"body":"bodies are sort of designed to withstand lack of resources."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1936.04,"endTime":1939.73,"body":"A lack of resources has triggers something within our bodies survival."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1939.73,"endTime":1943.45,"body":"So that does make sense, especially when you see sort of heart disease killing so many"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1943.45,"endTime":1949.63,"body":"people. You know, diabetes is is a pandemic in itself that maybe that is one of our"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1949.63,"endTime":1951.91,"body":"issues that resources in certain countries."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1952.0,"endTime":1957.01,"body":"So it's just so there's just too much there's too much food and a lot of it is too bad"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1957.01,"endTime":1960.94,"body":"for us. And so it's one of the then you say that to other countries where they don't have"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1960.94,"endTime":1965.83,"body":"enough resources. And it's it's one of the great sort of issues of our time, the"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1965.83,"endTime":1970.6,"body":"inequality, I guess that one half of the population is killing itself by eating too much"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":1970.6,"endTime":1972.52,"body":"and then the other half doesn't have enough."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1972.52,"endTime":1976.39,"body":"Exactly. It is sometimes a difficult conversation to have when, as you say, there are"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1976.39,"endTime":1979.27,"body":"millions around the world that are quite literally starving."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1979.57,"endTime":1986.86,"body":"And it just doesn't sometimes feel right to talk about these issues of immortality living"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1986.86,"endTime":1992.29,"body":"forever. Yet I suppose for a lot of people in the Western world, they are bombarded with"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1992.29,"endTime":1997.63,"body":"these messages and it just makes us think and I think I think not everything that you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1997.63,"endTime":2001.32,"body":"talk about in your book and some of the things that I discuss on this podcast are to be"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2001.32,"endTime":2006.15,"body":"dismissed. But there's a huge dollop of common sense that has to be thrown in there."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2006.15,"endTime":2007.59,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2007.59,"endTime":2011.64,"body":"And I think there is an issue of people not realizing that their health effects others, I"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2011.64,"endTime":2012.71,"body":"think as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2012.71,"endTime":2016.11,"body":"We should feel that we have that we need to look after each other."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2016.11,"endTime":2018.27,"body":"We don't live individually."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2018.27,"endTime":2020.49,"body":"What we do affects the rest of society."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2020.58,"endTime":2024.09,"body":"Just as you know, people are asked to wear masks in a pandemic."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2024.09,"endTime":2028.95,"body":"You should also try and look after yourself in the spirit of community and society,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2029.1,"endTime":2034.35,"body":"because especially when we go through difficult times, you know, you don't want to be"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2034.35,"endTime":2038.76,"body":"that sort of drain on society if you're constantly getting sick because maybe you didn't"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2038.76,"endTime":2041.67,"body":"look after yourself. Just do the bare minimum, I guess."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2041.67,"endTime":2047.49,"body":"So we should feel that sort of burden to improve our health, especially as we get older."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2047.49,"endTime":2050.64,"body":"And obviously the other thing is that you're never too young to start."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2050.64,"endTime":2054.33,"body":"We start to age the minute we're born and we start to deteriorate."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2054.75,"endTime":2056.76,"body":"I think someone told me sort of 20 ish."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2056.76,"endTime":2061.44,"body":"So basically all of us are in this sort of state of deterioration and we should do"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2061.44,"endTime":2066.78,"body":"anything we can to slow that down, not just for us, but for our loved ones and society as"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2066.78,"endTime":2067.26,"body":"a whole."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2067.26,"endTime":2072.48,"body":"I agree. You're never too young or indeed too old to start some sort of common sense"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2072.48,"endTime":2075.96,"body":"intervention that might make life and and your health better."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2075.96,"endTime":2080.61,"body":"I'm curious, Peter, after this huge body of research that you've done, is there anything"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2080.61,"endTime":2085.53,"body":"about your lifestyle that you've changed with your own longevity in mind?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2085.53,"endTime":2089.04,"body":"And also what are your longevity if you have them?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2089.04,"endTime":2090.66,"body":"Longevity aspirations?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2090.99,"endTime":2095.49,"body":"So I don't - I haven't changed anything, to be perfectly honest."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2095.49,"endTime":2098.7,"body":"I think finishing the book probably added on years to my life."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2098.7,"endTime":2103.29,"body":"I think while I was writing it, maybe I could feel myself aging faster."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2103.29,"endTime":2104.25,"body":"But no, I think."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2104.25,"endTime":2105.87,"body":"Almost every author will probably say that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2105.87,"endTime":2107.94,"body":"Yeah, I think it's the same thing."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2108.06,"endTime":2112.65,"body":"There are certain things that I know I can do better in terms of my longevity."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2112.98,"endTime":2118.08,"body":"I think one of the things I'm vegetarian personally, and that has been brought up a lot"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2118.08,"endTime":2121.77,"body":"as a potential thing that could help you be healthier for longer."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2122.25,"endTime":2124.35,"body":"I haven't gone so full plant based."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2124.35,"endTime":2127.05,"body":"I might try that at some point to see how it makes me feel."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2127.05,"endTime":2130.8,"body":"But basically, I mean, I'm vegetarian because I just felt healthier."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2130.8,"endTime":2134.31,"body":"It wasn't anything to do with my longevity goals."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2134.31,"endTime":2140.37,"body":"It was more in the sort of immediate that day I felt better and I just carried it on."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2140.37,"endTime":2142.71,"body":"Yeah, I don't really have I don't set myself a goal."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2142.71,"endTime":2147.03,"body":"I think we're all sort of the really tricky thing is I think somewhere inside us is this"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2147.03,"endTime":2151.05,"body":"predetermined date that providing we don't have an accident or anything happen to us,"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2151.05,"endTime":2154.11,"body":"that we will die and obviously we want."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2154.11,"endTime":2156.27,"body":"You think that it's predetermined?"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2156.3,"endTime":2158.4,"body":"I think I think there's something in our genetic code."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2158.4,"endTime":2162.86,"body":"I think that's why you see those people that sort of live until they're 120, 130 and they"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2162.86,"endTime":2167.78,"body":"say, Oh, well, I smoked five cigarettes a day and I drank a beer at the end of each day."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2167.81,"endTime":2170.12,"body":"They're doing things that shouldn't let them live forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2170.12,"endTime":2174.14,"body":"But some people, they're just genetically coded to withstand certain diseases like cancer"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2174.26,"endTime":2175.37,"body":"and heart disease."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2175.7,"endTime":2177.88,"body":"And so I guess the goal is just to beat that."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2177.89,"endTime":2180.14,"body":"Whatever the problem is, we don't know what it is."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2180.26,"endTime":2183.26,"body":"So there are some people who could do amazingly well."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2183.26,"endTime":2187.37,"body":"They could be living ten years beyond that thing by doing certain things, but we just"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2187.37,"endTime":2190.21,"body":"don't know. It's really hard to put any data to it."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2190.22,"endTime":2194.9,"body":"It's hard to do a study to do with longevity at all because you'd have to wait 100 years"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2194.9,"endTime":2200.19,"body":"to get the results because you'd probably have to do it for the whole person's lifespan."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2200.24,"endTime":2205.34,"body":"So that's a that's a very long winded way of saying, no, I don't have any longevity goals"},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2205.34,"endTime":2207.38,"body":"and I do try and keep myself healthy."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2207.38,"endTime":2210.62,"body":"I do try and exercise and eat healthy as much as possible."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2210.62,"endTime":2213.67,"body":"But the book didn't sort of turn me into a fanatic or anything."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2213.74,"endTime":2216.44,"body":"I still make the same mistakes everyone else does, I guess."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2216.62,"endTime":2219.68,"body":"Yeah, we'll probably all continue to make those mistakes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2219.68,"endTime":2222.72,"body":"Peter, this has been an intriguing insight."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2222.74,"endTime":2223.73,"body":"Thank you very much indeed."},{"speaker":"Peter Ward","startTime":2223.85,"endTime":2225.44,"body":"Thanks so much for having me. It's been great."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2225.59,"endTime":2229.49,"body":"Real pleasure. And if you'd like to check out Peter's book, The Price of Immortality: The"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2229.49,"endTime":2230.9,"body":"Race to Live Forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2230.9,"endTime":2235.58,"body":"There's a link in the show notes for this episode where you'll also find a transcript of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2235.58,"endTime":2236.91,"body":"this conversation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2236.93,"endTime":2239.84,"body":"The LLAMA Podcast is a Healthspan Media production."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2239.84,"endTime":2242.12,"body":"We will be back very soon with another episode."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2242.12,"endTime":2244.28,"body":"In the meantime, thank you so much for listening."}]}