{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":0.93,"endTime":6.33,"body":"There are definitely genetic contributors to longevity, and they seem to be different for"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":6.33,"endTime":10.59,"body":"males and females, and I still don't know why that would be so, but that was one of the"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":10.59,"endTime":16.08,"body":"most interesting things for me to come out of doing this research for the series."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":20.82,"endTime":26.58,"body":"Anette Breindl is the coauthor of a special report on aging, recently published in the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":26.58,"endTime":30.72,"body":"magazine BioWorld, where she is a senior science editor."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":31.2,"endTime":34.71,"body":"Hello again and welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":34.71,"endTime":40.23,"body":"I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":40.73,"endTime":45.37,"body":"I've been doing this podcast for more than five years, more than 200 episodes now, and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":45.42,"endTime":50.82,"body":"we've talked about many life span or healthspan, as I prefer to refer to many"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":50.82,"endTime":56.76,"body":"interventions that could help us live a longer, healthier life from fasting to more"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":56.76,"endTime":63.09,"body":"intense exercise, to targeted supplementation to things like red light therapy that we"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":63.09,"endTime":65.25,"body":"talked about recently and many others."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":65.25,"endTime":71.13,"body":"But my interest was piqued by this new report, which covers in some fascinating detail"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":71.13,"endTime":77.73,"body":"the concept of extending human lifespan and whether aspiring to a longer, healthier life"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":77.73,"endTime":82.89,"body":"is indeed feasible or still more of a fantasy for some people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":83.16,"endTime":85.14,"body":"Anette, welcome to the LLAMA podcast."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":85.14,"endTime":86.52,"body":"Hi, thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":86.52,"endTime":87.75,"body":"It's a pleasure to be here."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":87.75,"endTime":89.34,"body":"Yeah, it's really good to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":89.34,"endTime":90.45,"body":"This is a big report."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":90.45,"endTime":92.58,"body":"It covers so much ground."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":92.64,"endTime":95.37,"body":"Let's start with what you set out to achieve."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":95.4,"endTime":98.79,"body":"Give me a sense of the goals and aspirations of this report."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":98.79,"endTime":107.16,"body":"Sure. So Bio World is a specialty publication that is focused on drug discovery and the"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":107.16,"endTime":109.5,"body":"biopharma industry to a large extent."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":109.5,"endTime":114.96,"body":"So we, you know, would look at the pharmacological aspects of these things, and I have"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":114.96,"endTime":116.7,"body":"been writing for them for a while."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":116.7,"endTime":124.53,"body":"So this got started when we noticed that there was a large number of financings that"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":124.53,"endTime":129.93,"body":"companies in the anti aging space were getting a lot of money from investors and venture"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":129.93,"endTime":136.44,"body":"capitalists. And I am sort of old enough to have remember the last time this happened,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":136.44,"endTime":139.74,"body":"which was maybe around 2007, 2008, eight, maybe 15 years ago."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":139.92,"endTime":145.47,"body":"So my interest was piqued because the last time, which we can get into if you want to,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":145.47,"endTime":152.16,"body":"but there was a lot of interest, but then it did not end in success as far as bringing"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":152.43,"endTime":156.27,"body":"new pharmacological anti-aging interventions to market."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":156.69,"endTime":164.55,"body":"So I was curious how the science of aging and extending lifespan or healthspan because"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":164.55,"endTime":168.09,"body":"you are right, it is about healthspan much more than lifespan."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":168.09,"endTime":170.22,"body":"How that had changed in the meantime."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":170.22,"endTime":176.94,"body":"And like most people, I think I still had the idea that it is pie in the sky sort of"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":176.94,"endTime":183.96,"body":"goal. But then I started talking to researchers who are doing extremely rigorous research"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":183.96,"endTime":191.25,"body":"on the science of lifespan extension and realized that there is a lot going on and that"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":191.25,"endTime":195.21,"body":"in some ways it is not a pie in the sky goal at all."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":195.21,"endTime":202.62,"body":"It is something that has been achieved multiple times in animal models, never in humans."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":202.62,"endTime":207.66,"body":"You know, in a clinical trial to date, which is hard to do because aging, those are long"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":207.66,"endTime":209.22,"body":"trials if it works."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":209.22,"endTime":212.28,"body":"Right. And that piqued my interest."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":212.28,"endTime":215.97,"body":"And then as I said, bio world covers the biopharma industry."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":215.97,"endTime":220.95,"body":"So we were also interested in the financing interest in more detail than that."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":220.95,"endTime":228.69,"body":"And in the question of how you would bring these drugs to market, whether, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":228.69,"endTime":231.66,"body":"if they were to be FDA approved, how would you do that?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":231.66,"endTime":235.56,"body":"Because the FDA does not consider aging a disease."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":235.56,"endTime":238.68,"body":"So aging is not an approved end point for clinical trials."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":238.68,"endTime":243.42,"body":"So we were also curious about how the people who were investing were hoping to get a"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":243.42,"endTime":244.86,"body":"return on their investment."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":244.86,"endTime":247.5,"body":"So those were all aspects we looked at in this report."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":247.5,"endTime":248.67,"body":"Just before."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":248.67,"endTime":252.39,"body":"And that's fascinating. Let's be before we dive into that further, just give me a little"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":252.39,"endTime":254.76,"body":"perspective on your own experience."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":254.88,"endTime":256.38,"body":"You're not and this is interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":256.38,"endTime":261.39,"body":"You're not necessarily coming at this with a breadth of experience in the longevity"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":261.39,"endTime":261.96,"body":"sphere."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":261.99,"endTime":268.77,"body":"No, my background is in science and I cover all aspects of science that are relevant to"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":268.77,"endTime":269.88,"body":"the biopharma industry."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":269.88,"endTime":275.34,"body":"So I do a lot of work looking at specific diseases and what the progress is there."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":275.7,"endTime":281.28,"body":"And one of the interesting the key thing about aging, of course, is that it if you slow"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":281.28,"endTime":286.35,"body":"down aging, you reduce the risk of multiple diseases at once."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":286.35,"endTime":289.38,"body":"And that is really what people are trying to achieve."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":289.38,"endTime":292.86,"body":"I mean, I'm sure there's also billionaires out there who are trying to cheat death."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":292.86,"endTime":297.36,"body":"But I think in terms of the people doing research on it, that is really what they are"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":297.36,"endTime":298.74,"body":"trying to achieve."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":298.74,"endTime":303.99,"body":"The director of the American Federation of Aging Research Nir Barzilai."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":304.02,"endTime":307.14,"body":"He calls it dying young at a very old age."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":307.14,"endTime":311.73,"body":"So yeah, we've had Nir Barzilai on the podcast a couple of times and he's doing"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":311.73,"endTime":314.76,"body":"fascinating work and he is a great guy and he's a great raconteur as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":314.76,"endTime":317.1,"body":"So it's always fun to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":317.13,"endTime":323.34,"body":"One thing you just said in terms of aging per se, and the FDA not recognizing aging as a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":323.34,"endTime":328.83,"body":"disease is a hugely controversial area in itself, because I'm sure some of the scientists"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":328.83,"endTime":335.43,"body":"that you spoke to do consider aging to be a disease in itself, which I personally I know"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":335.43,"endTime":339.63,"body":"a lot of the people find just difficult to get your head around this what seems like a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":339.63,"endTime":345.72,"body":"natural process of getting older, which is what aging is, that that in some way is the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":345.72,"endTime":350.91,"body":"disease. And I'm just curious in terms of your own thoughts on this, whether you were"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":350.91,"endTime":353.54,"body":"persuaded or you've formed a view on that?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":353.55,"endTime":356.34,"body":"I am not sure."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":356.82,"endTime":360.9,"body":"Honestly, I can see both sides of the issue."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":361.05,"endTime":362.67,"body":"It is inevitable, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":362.67,"endTime":366.6,"body":"And you will never stop chronological aging, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":366.6,"endTime":372.0,"body":"We are a day older today than we were yesterday and so is everyone else."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":372.0,"endTime":376.98,"body":"The biological aging that goes along with that."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":376.98,"endTime":379.74,"body":"I can see why it would be considered a disease."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":379.74,"endTime":387.93,"body":"I can also see why the FDA would say, well, aging itself is really not the issue because"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":388.11,"endTime":394.59,"body":"there are perfectly healthy 85, 90, 95 year olds."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":394.59,"endTime":399.48,"body":"And so what do you really want to look at there in terms of slowing down aging?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":399.48,"endTime":403.32,"body":"You know, and my both my grandparents lived quite a long time."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":403.32,"endTime":408.06,"body":"My grandfather lived to be 89 and then died in his sleep one night, you know, for him."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":408.06,"endTime":413.82,"body":"And I'm not saying that he was never sick and was not frailer as he got older, but I"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":413.82,"endTime":418.53,"body":"would say that he did have what we're all looking for, that healthy aging."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":418.53,"endTime":420.36,"body":"So it is possible."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":420.36,"endTime":428.52,"body":"And I think the idea or I you know, I think a good goal of anti aging research is to"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":428.55,"endTime":435.15,"body":"bring that sort of long healthspan followed by a period of brief decline, a brief period"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":435.15,"endTime":438.6,"body":"of decline, hopefully to many more people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":438.6,"endTime":442.95,"body":"That's the compressed morbidity that you're referring to that there's so many scientists"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":442.95,"endTime":448.02,"body":"refer to. So let's dive into the interventions, the possible interventions that we can"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":448.02,"endTime":453.81,"body":"use to extend our lifespan or indeed healthspan and focus on pharmaceuticals or"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":453.81,"endTime":457.56,"body":"nutraceuticals. There is a distinct difference there, but I think that is a big part of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":457.56,"endTime":458.61,"body":"what you were looking at."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":458.68,"endTime":464.19,"body":"I suppose a broad question is from all of your conversations and your studies of this,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":464.19,"endTime":467.96,"body":"what did you see that was potentially the most useful?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":467.97,"endTime":473.4,"body":"I will preface my remarks with saying that, you know, none of these have been shown to"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":473.4,"endTime":481.92,"body":"extend lifespan in humans and that the things that I see are mainly people working on"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":481.92,"endTime":485.34,"body":"prescription drugs or variants thereof."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":485.34,"endTime":492.45,"body":"There are a few drugs that have been shown to extend lifespan in animals and that are"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":492.45,"endTime":498.51,"body":"used medically that are either FDA approved or a drug like aspirin, for example, extends"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":498.51,"endTime":500.55,"body":"lifespan in mice, but only in males."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":500.55,"endTime":504.24,"body":"So that's another big thing about aging research."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":504.27,"endTime":506.91,"body":"A lot of it is surprisingly sex specific."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":506.91,"endTime":513.33,"body":"So the aspirin was is something that that has been shown by the interventions testing"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":513.33,"endTime":518.85,"body":"program of the National Institutes on Aging to again extend lifespan in male mice."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":518.88,"endTime":524.19,"body":"Another commonly used drug which is metformin, which is a diabetes drug."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":524.19,"endTime":530.64,"body":"And going back to Nir Barzilai, he is doing extensive research on the potential longevity"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":530.64,"endTime":532.26,"body":"benefits of metformin."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":532.26,"endTime":536.13,"body":"I think the jury is still out there, but is that something that you looked into?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":536.16,"endTime":540.75,"body":"Yes. And again, you know, the jury is still out on everything as far as humans are"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":540.75,"endTime":549.48,"body":"concerned. But that is something where people are hopeful that it would be lifespan"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":549.48,"endTime":550.76,"body":"extending."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":550.76,"endTime":552.21,"body":"Again, a lot of these drugs."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":552.21,"endTime":553.89,"body":"We think they work one way."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":553.89,"endTime":559.98,"body":"And then if somebody takes the time to really look at at the cellular level, then it"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":560.19,"endTime":562.92,"body":"turns out that they do several things or other things."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":562.92,"endTime":566.31,"body":"You know, I see that again and again in research on everything."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":566.34,"endTime":569.91,"body":"It's fascinating with cancer drugs, you know, you think they do one thing and then"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":569.91,"endTime":574.41,"body":"somebody looks at a cell study and says, no, actually it's this."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":574.41,"endTime":578.82,"body":"So with metformin, it's clearly an anti diabetes drug."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":578.82,"endTime":584.22,"body":"Whether that is why it extends lifespan is really not clear."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":584.22,"endTime":590.4,"body":"But yes, that is another one that is an old and generally used and quite safe drug that"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":590.4,"endTime":591.66,"body":"people have hopes for."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":591.66,"endTime":596.94,"body":"And yes, if you know, Nir Barzilai is is spearheading those those trials to see whether"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":596.94,"endTime":599.31,"body":"it will work in humans."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":599.39,"endTime":604.43,"body":"Something you've already touched on a little bit is the the gender differences in terms of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":604.43,"endTime":609.65,"body":"of healthspan and what we, most of us, I think, probably acknowledge that women live"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":609.65,"endTime":610.79,"body":"longer than men."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":611.39,"endTime":616.97,"body":"I'm curious to know whether any of the interventions that you studied are going to close"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":616.97,"endTime":620.92,"body":"the gap between male and female lifespan."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":620.93,"endTime":627.77,"body":"So that is an interesting question because what most people know and what I knew going"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":627.77,"endTime":631.04,"body":"into the research as well, is that women have the longer lifespan."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":631.25,"endTime":637.97,"body":"Now women have a shorter healthspan than men, so they spend more of their time in poor"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":637.97,"endTime":643.88,"body":"health. And that was something I was not aware of."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":643.91,"endTime":647.54,"body":"So closing the lifespan gap, maybe."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":647.54,"endTime":653.06,"body":"I think it is also very important to think about closing the Healthspan gap because there"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":653.06,"endTime":658.25,"body":"is the possibility also of exacerbating these existing inequities because, for example,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":658.25,"endTime":659.96,"body":"aspirin, you know, it works in male mice."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":659.96,"endTime":665.36,"body":"If it works in males too, then you could close the lifespan gap, perhaps."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":665.36,"endTime":669.47,"body":"But women then relative to men, would be worse off than before, Right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":669.71,"endTime":674.27,"body":"If it doesn't work in them, which is also not entirely clear from mice, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":674.27,"endTime":678.38,"body":"might work in women, but, you know, say it is in people the way it is in mice."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":678.38,"endTime":679.91,"body":"It works in men and not in women."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":679.91,"endTime":685.1,"body":"So then you have a longer lifespan in men, but you don't have a better health span in"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":685.1,"endTime":688.52,"body":"women. So, again, you know, women are relatively worse off than before."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":688.52,"endTime":691.09,"body":"And that is something to be careful about."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":691.1,"endTime":692.66,"body":"But yes, it's fascinating."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":692.66,"endTime":696.05,"body":"I also where people have looked and fruit flies and mice."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":696.47,"endTime":702.41,"body":"There are definitely genetic contributors to longevity and they seem to be different for"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":702.41,"endTime":705.65,"body":"males and females, which is just fascinating to me."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":705.65,"endTime":707.69,"body":"And I still don't know why that would be so."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":707.69,"endTime":713.12,"body":"But that was one of the most interesting things for me to come out of doing this research"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":713.12,"endTime":714.32,"body":"for the series."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":752.6600000000001,"endTime":755.45,"body":"This is the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":755.45,"endTime":760.52,"body":"Anette Breindl is the coauthor of a special report on Aging, recently published in the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":760.52,"endTime":762.24,"body":"magazine Bio World."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":762.26,"endTime":768.5899999999999,"body":"Annette, I'm interested in what happens when these and as you refer to just now, it is a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":768.5899999999999,"endTime":772.8499999999999,"body":"long, long process sometimes developing these new interventions."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":772.8499999999999,"endTime":776.0899999999999,"body":"Longevity research, by its very nature takes a long time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":776.0899999999999,"endTime":782.21,"body":"But let's assume that we do have a new pharmaceutical or nutraceutical intervention that"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":782.21,"endTime":783.48,"body":"becomes available."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":783.5,"endTime":785.6300000000001,"body":"It is approved by the FDA."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":785.6600000000001,"endTime":789.8900000000001,"body":"The next challenge, of course, is to get it out to people who can benefit from it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":789.8900000000001,"endTime":795.5899999999999,"body":"And one of the huge problems in the world at the moment is the inequity in terms of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":795.5899999999999,"endTime":800.27,"body":"access not only to regular medicines, but something that some people would still see as"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":800.27,"endTime":804.4100000000001,"body":"very specialized, something that is focused on our longevity."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":804.4100000000001,"endTime":808.8800000000001,"body":"That is a big challenge moving forward to ensure that all of this and the gazillions, it"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":808.8800000000001,"endTime":814.76,"body":"seems dollars going into longevity research ultimately benefits everyone equally."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":814.76,"endTime":816.8599999999999,"body":"Yes, it is."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":816.8599999999999,"endTime":821.3900000000001,"body":"That is a challenge that will need to be worked out."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":821.6300000000001,"endTime":824.3599999999999,"body":"Even if these drugs are cheap."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":824.3599999999999,"endTime":830.9300000000001,"body":"It is really not clear with pricing whether they would stay cheap if they were approved"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":830.9300000000001,"endTime":833.28,"body":"as anti aging drugs."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":833.28,"endTime":838.4300000000001,"body":"In some places I think you could get them fairly easily."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":838.4300000000001,"endTime":843.29,"body":"This really gets into how the health care systems are organized."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":843.29,"endTime":848.78,"body":"Right. And in the United States, for example, because people switch insurances a lot, it"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":848.78,"endTime":853.7,"body":"is difficult to get preventive medicines covered."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":853.7,"endTime":860.96,"body":"And one of the folks I talked to, the CEO of Cambrian Biotherapeutics, who is a wonderful"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":860.96,"endTime":866.0,"body":"guy doing very interesting work in this space, and he said that, you know what these"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":866.0,"endTime":870.3499999999999,"body":"drugs really are are multi morbidity prevention tools."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":870.3499999999999,"endTime":872.8699999999999,"body":"So they prevent multiple illnesses."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":872.8699999999999,"endTime":877.1300000000001,"body":"They are a little bit like the Swiss Army knife of anti-aging, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":877.1300000000001,"endTime":879.23,"body":"That would be the idea."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":879.23,"endTime":883.01,"body":"You take this anti-aging drug and you are less likely to get cancer, you are less likely"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":883.01,"endTime":886.5799999999999,"body":"to get heart disease, you are less likely to get osteoporosis."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":886.5799999999999,"endTime":891.3800000000001,"body":"Which is crucial, isn't it, Because focusing on people becoming less likely to suffer from"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":891.3800000000001,"endTime":897.2,"body":"those killer diseases of old age, ultimately there's going to be a financial reward in"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":897.2,"endTime":903.0799999999999,"body":"terms of reducing the cost of health care for people over, let's say, 60, 70 or 80 years"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":903.0799999999999,"endTime":903.4100000000001,"body":"old."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":903.4100000000001,"endTime":906.8299999999999,"body":"Yes. So that is also a complicated question."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":906.8299999999999,"endTime":913.31,"body":"Whether you save money altogether or at least like you can, you could some people worry"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":913.31,"endTime":915.47,"body":"that, well, if everybody lives to be 100, right."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":915.47,"endTime":917.81,"body":"The health care costs are going to go through the roof."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":917.81,"endTime":923.3599999999999,"body":"What appears to happen and it differs sort of by disease."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":923.3599999999999,"endTime":930.53,"body":"So if you cure diabetes of a 50 year old, for example, the economic modeling says that"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":930.53,"endTime":936.3800000000001,"body":"you could both extend their life span and decrease their medical costs over the course of"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":936.3800000000001,"endTime":942.6400000000001,"body":"their entire life because they just need so many fewer interventions overall that even"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":942.6400000000001,"endTime":946.3699999999999,"body":"though they need them over a longer time, it still ends up costing less money."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":946.3900000000001,"endTime":949.54,"body":"For others, the data is not so clear."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":949.5699999999999,"endTime":954.0999999999999,"body":"Overall, though, the that's the key to the increased healthspan."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":954.0999999999999,"endTime":960.52,"body":"Right. What we see usually with people is that they incur a lot of their medical costs in"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":960.52,"endTime":962.3499999999999,"body":"the last two years of their life."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":962.3499999999999,"endTime":967.06,"body":"So they're pretty healthy. And then oftentimes, at least and then the last two years,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":967.06,"endTime":972.0999999999999,"body":"there are really more and more interventions, which is sort of a consequence of the era"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":972.0999999999999,"endTime":973.1500000000001,"body":"of high tech medicine."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":973.1500000000001,"endTime":973.54,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":973.5699999999999,"endTime":978.5799999999999,"body":"I was just wondering and you almost answered my question before I asked it there, when you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":978.5799999999999,"endTime":985.69,"body":"mentioned the fact that the general view is that if we do all live to a ripe old age of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":985.69,"endTime":990.1300000000001,"body":"90 or 100 years old and therefore health care costs are going to rise because there are"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":990.1300000000001,"endTime":993.6099999999999,"body":"going to be so many people in that group of people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":993.8800000000001,"endTime":1000.78,"body":"It's almost a defeatist attitude when you think that really the goal is healthspan."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1000.78,"endTime":1005.8499999999999,"body":"And the idea is that hopefully we are nurturing people's health to a point that they have"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1005.8499999999999,"endTime":1008.6099999999999,"body":"that healthspan and get to the age of 90 or even 100."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1008.6099999999999,"endTime":1013.23,"body":"And they are still relatively healthy, they're still involved in society, they're still"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1013.23,"endTime":1017.31,"body":"contributing, possibly even in some cases still working."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1017.31,"endTime":1020.8800000000001,"body":"And again, there's going to be a positive financial reward to that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1020.8800000000001,"endTime":1026.07,"body":"People talk about the the longevity economy in a in a positive sense."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1026.07,"endTime":1033.18,"body":"It may seem like a distant dream to some people to enable people at such a great age"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1033.18,"endTime":1035.85,"body":"still to be healthy and active and productive."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1035.85,"endTime":1038.25,"body":"But it would be great, wouldn't it, if that was the goal."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1038.28,"endTime":1046.14,"body":"Yes. And I think for many people working on longevity and anti-aging drugs, that is indeed"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1046.14,"endTime":1051.84,"body":"the goal. You know, nobody wants to spend 30 years with dementia instead of ten years"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1051.84,"endTime":1053.25,"body":"with dementia right so."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1053.58,"endTime":1053.73,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1053.86,"endTime":1061.95,"body":"And it is like I said, it's complicated in terms of the economics, but it does seem like"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1061.95,"endTime":1068.7,"body":"it is at least possible to do that, that you could have a longer, healthier life with"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1068.7,"endTime":1070.74,"body":"lower medical costs overall."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1070.74,"endTime":1075.06,"body":"And so you would not bankrupt the medical system with these drugs."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1075.45,"endTime":1081.3,"body":"Again, one issue is to actually get them to people, because in the United States, for"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1081.3,"endTime":1085.05,"body":"example, it's very hard to convince insurance companies to cover things."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1085.05,"endTime":1090.0,"body":"And anti-aging drugs would have their own problems because when when they're old,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1090.0,"endTime":1091.32,"body":"everybody is on Medicare."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1091.32,"endTime":1095.57,"body":"So the insurance companies don't have that incentive."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1095.57,"endTime":1097.83,"body":"Elsewhere it might be easier."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1097.83,"endTime":1104.1299999999999,"body":"But again, if the drugs become expensive, they could have the best benefit potentially"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1104.1299999999999,"endTime":1107.73,"body":"for people in poorer countries now who have poorer health."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1108.21,"endTime":1113.24,"body":"But equity and access is going to be something that will need to be addressed."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1113.25,"endTime":1115.8,"body":"Let's move away from drug interventions."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1115.8,"endTime":1119.61,"body":"And clearly, and certainly from my own experience of talking to many scientists and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1119.61,"endTime":1124.05,"body":"researchers on this podcast, it doesn't all necessarily come down to pharmaceuticals."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1124.05,"endTime":1126.74,"body":"There are other ways potentially."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1126.74,"endTime":1131.49,"body":"And I know this isn't something that is the focus of your report, but clearly taking an"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1131.49,"endTime":1135.33,"body":"umbrella approach to this, there are lifestyle interventions as well that could"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1135.33,"endTime":1138.9299999999998,"body":"potentially add a few healthy years to our lives."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1138.9299999999998,"endTime":1144.33,"body":"Certainly the one for which there is the strongest evidence, I think at this point is"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1144.33,"endTime":1147.51,"body":"intermittent fasting and low calorie diets."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1147.78,"endTime":1153.47,"body":"Low calorie diets are a lifestyle intervention that clearly works."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1153.48,"endTime":1157.3799999999999,"body":"Perhaps you could just title they're eating less as a society."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1157.3799999999999,"endTime":1161.31,"body":"If we just cut the amount of food that we eat that it would."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1161.31,"endTime":1166.44,"body":"And it is one of the strongest areas of research that you can talk about fasting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1166.44,"endTime":1168.0,"body":"There are so many different types of fasting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1168.0,"endTime":1173.1299999999999,"body":"Even the phrase intermittent fasting is quite confusing because people interpret it in"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1173.1299999999999,"endTime":1176.97,"body":"different ways. It could just be time restricted eating where you limit the hours while"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1176.97,"endTime":1181.3799999999999,"body":"you're eating. But the evidence is and again, I've got a personal interest in this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1181.3799999999999,"endTime":1185.82,"body":"because I've looked at and tried a lot of these interventions, but they're very"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1185.82,"endTime":1186.72,"body":"promising, aren't they?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1186.72,"endTime":1190.1399999999999,"body":"It does seem to me that they are."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1190.1399999999999,"endTime":1196.3799999999999,"body":"One interesting thing and one thing that I think more research needs to be done on is that"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1196.3799999999999,"endTime":1200.28,"body":"what works for men in that area is not what works for women."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1200.28,"endTime":1205.6499999999999,"body":"So that is another and that is something that I don't think has been addressed enough."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1205.77,"endTime":1211.8899999999999,"body":"But yes, the fasting does seem like a promising thing, although I don't know whether, you"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1211.8899999999999,"endTime":1216.27,"body":"know, catch 22 where there is the man who tries to make his life as boring as possible"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1216.3,"endTime":1217.74,"body":"because it will seem longer."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1217.8899999999999,"endTime":1222.72,"body":"So to me, permanent food restriction sounds a little bit like that, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1222.72,"endTime":1224.9099999999999,"body":"The days seem very long because you don't get to eat."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1224.9099999999999,"endTime":1229.77,"body":"But no, but there is also good evidence that it is good for the body."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1229.77,"endTime":1234.69,"body":"Although how it is good for the body is another thing that on a cellular level, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1234.69,"endTime":1236.37,"body":"these things are made to be worked out."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1236.44,"endTime":1237.01,"body":"Probably most of them."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1237.01,"endTime":1242.02,"body":"Yeah, it is still ongoing research and I suppose a little caveat to what you were saying."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1242.02,"endTime":1245.1699999999998,"body":"It might for people who haven't tried fasting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1245.1699999999998,"endTime":1248.26,"body":"And again, it doesn't have to be extreme fasting by any means."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1248.26,"endTime":1250.4199999999998,"body":"It doesn't even have to be 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1250.6,"endTime":1256.36,"body":"Fasting can just be a significant break in that circadian that 24 hour circadian rhythm"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1256.36,"endTime":1257.95,"body":"that can still be beneficial."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1257.95,"endTime":1262.33,"body":"And as someone who does that, you get used to it and it becomes part of your lifestyle"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1262.33,"endTime":1263.86,"body":"and you don't really think about it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1263.86,"endTime":1268.87,"body":"Whether it's going to extend my healthspan ask me in 30 or 40 years time, we'll find out"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1268.87,"endTime":1273.6699999999998,"body":". I'm interested and we established at the beginning that clearly you are coming at this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1273.6699999999998,"endTime":1278.86,"body":"and it's good that you are from an independent perspective without decades of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1278.86,"endTime":1282.28,"body":"preconceived ideas maybe about the longevity industry."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1282.28,"endTime":1287.59,"body":"So I'm curious, looking at everything that you studied, was your mind changed or"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1287.59,"endTime":1292.27,"body":"influenced in any way and perhaps even applying it to yourself and your lifestyle?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1292.27,"endTime":1295.09,"body":"Because this is about ultimately lifestyle for all of us."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1295.09,"endTime":1299.4099999999999,"body":"Was there anything that you heard in your discussions that may set off a little bell in"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1299.4099999999999,"endTime":1302.26,"body":"your mind thinking, Yeah, that sounds interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1302.26,"endTime":1304.03,"body":"Maybe it's just something I should do myself."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1305.23,"endTime":1309.28,"body":"Honestly, I live a reasonably healthy lifestyle, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1309.28,"endTime":1316.6299999999999,"body":"So certainly it brought home, I think, the fact that I am in middle age now and that the"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1316.6299999999999,"endTime":1320.74,"body":"things we do now do pay dividends later."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1320.77,"endTime":1321.97,"body":"It is interesting."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1321.97,"endTime":1325.09,"body":"And if you've had Nir Barzilai on the podcast, then you know that too."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1325.12,"endTime":1330.76,"body":"There is, I think you get to be a healthy 80 year old through lifestyle choices."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1330.76,"endTime":1335.11,"body":"In part at some point genetics really seemed to take over, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1335.11,"endTime":1339.25,"body":"I don't know whether Nir ever talked to you about Helen, his 105 year old woman who"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1339.25,"endTime":1344.6499999999999,"body":"smoked for more than ninety years, which was just amazing to me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1344.6499999999999,"endTime":1349.48,"body":"That some people seem to have the longevity gene and that no matter what they do, they"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1349.8999999999999,"endTime":1352.99,"body":"achieve a great healthspan and lifespan."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1352.99,"endTime":1357.85,"body":"And I think the point is, though, that those people are in terms of numbers, it's"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1357.85,"endTime":1358.3899999999999,"body":"minuscule."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1358.3899999999999,"endTime":1361.9299999999998,"body":"Yeah, no, they are. It really is very minuscule."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1361.9299999999998,"endTime":1366.4299999999998,"body":"You will. And those are the lucky ones and you don't know which one you're going to be."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1366.4299999999998,"endTime":1372.1299999999999,"body":"So I am not advocating, you know, rolling the dice and smoking because you could live to"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1372.1299999999999,"endTime":1377.77,"body":"be 100. You know, you are and much more likely to find yourself with cancer at a younger"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1377.77,"endTime":1379.03,"body":"age than that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1379.03,"endTime":1383.44,"body":"Did it give you pause in terms of looking ahead the decades ahead?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1383.44,"endTime":1384.94,"body":"You're in middle age."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1384.94,"endTime":1386.9199999999998,"body":"I like to think I'm in middle age as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1386.98,"endTime":1390.6399999999999,"body":"Some people would argue that being over 60 is just on the edge of middle age, but"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1390.6399999999999,"endTime":1393.07,"body":"nevertheless, that's my positive outlook."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1393.07,"endTime":1398.74,"body":"Did it give you pause to think about the decades ahead for you and perhaps how you aspire"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1398.74,"endTime":1399.9099999999999,"body":"to grow older?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1399.94,"endTime":1405.1299999999999,"body":"It gave me hope that by the time I need them, these medications might be there."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1405.1299999999999,"endTime":1411.4299999999998,"body":"I have to say I have to get back to my grandfather again, who lived to be 89 and then"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1411.4299999999998,"endTime":1416.62,"body":"died in his sleep. That has long been, you know, a hope of mine that it could be like"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1416.62,"endTime":1421.03,"body":"that. And my grandmother, too, she lived to be 94 and she had a stroke about six months"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1421.03,"endTime":1425.53,"body":"before she died. So those last six months were she was not in good health."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1425.53,"endTime":1427.72,"body":"But up until then, she really was."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1427.99,"endTime":1432.97,"body":"You know, the lifestyle interventions I saw with them was that they sort of always had a"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1432.97,"endTime":1436.06,"body":"social life, an active social life."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1436.3,"endTime":1438.76,"body":"I don't even know that they exercise much."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1438.76,"endTime":1440.32,"body":"They walked a lot."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1440.32,"endTime":1446.1399999999999,"body":"Do you think there is a danger of and perhaps even conversations like this, that people"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1446.1399999999999,"endTime":1452.29,"body":"are given false hope based on the science and the research that is going on?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1452.29,"endTime":1456.58,"body":"And I mentioned before, there's a tremendous amount of money being invested in longevity"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1456.58,"endTime":1462.34,"body":"research. But just looking at people around the world at the moment, the cost of living"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1462.34,"endTime":1468.1,"body":"crisis that people are going through, there are so many other issues that are dominating"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1468.1,"endTime":1473.98,"body":"people's lives that their health and longevity is perhaps sometimes the last thing that"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1473.98,"endTime":1478.96,"body":"they are thinking about. And you use the phrase maybe you have hope that in the future"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1478.96,"endTime":1482.86,"body":"the pharmaceuticals will be there to help you get through the later years."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1483.1299999999999,"endTime":1489.07,"body":"I wonder if people put too much hope in that area and that perhaps putting more of an"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1489.07,"endTime":1494.26,"body":"emphasis on the today and the now on what we can do to achieve a better health today and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1494.26,"endTime":1496.3,"body":"tomorrow will perhaps be more appropriate."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1496.3,"endTime":1497.6499999999999,"body":"I see your point."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1497.6499999999999,"endTime":1501.28,"body":"I do worry there about inequities again, right?"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1501.28,"endTime":1507.25,"body":"Because some people can do a lot more lifestyle tweaks than others, and especially right"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1507.25,"endTime":1511.99,"body":"now with, you know, as you were saying, the cost of living crisis."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1512.1699999999998,"endTime":1516.79,"body":"I was in the supermarket the other day and this lady was saying that she would have to"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1516.79,"endTime":1522.1299999999999,"body":"switch from peppermint to chamomile tea because she could not find the cheap generic"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1522.1299999999999,"endTime":1523.3,"body":"chamomile tea."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1523.3899999999999,"endTime":1527.47,"body":"Now, you know, I am lucky enough that when the chamomile tea is not there and I want"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1527.47,"endTime":1532.9299999999998,"body":"chamomile tea, I buy the organic chamomile tea that costs, you know, three times as much,"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1532.9299999999998,"endTime":1534.85,"body":"probably in my German supermarket here."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1534.85,"endTime":1536.25,"body":"So I."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1536.32,"endTime":1540.26,"body":"I think it is good for people to think about what they can do."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1540.28,"endTime":1546.61,"body":"I think it is also good for people to not beat themselves up over what they can't do and"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1546.61,"endTime":1550.72,"body":"when they are stressed about lifestyle things and when money is tight."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1550.87,"endTime":1554.23,"body":"Sometimes just getting through the day today."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1554.32,"endTime":1559.36,"body":"And again, I agree that that you're right, that it is good to think about these things in"},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1559.36,"endTime":1561.8799999999999,"body":"your day to day life and think about what you can do."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1561.8799999999999,"endTime":1568.26,"body":"But it is not possible for everyone and everyone does deserve that."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1568.26,"endTime":1568.6,"body":"I think."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1568.81,"endTime":1572.2,"body":"I think that is a good way to finish this."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1572.2,"endTime":1577.99,"body":"And it really interesting and the report is in some detail more detail than we've had an"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1577.99,"endTime":1579.4299999999998,"body":"opportunity to go into now."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1579.4299999999998,"endTime":1581.53,"body":"But thank you so much for talking to us."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1581.71,"endTime":1585.24,"body":"Oh, thank you for giving me the time to talk about this."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1585.25,"endTime":1588.07,"body":"It is really a fascinating area and thank you for your podcast."},{"speaker":"Anette Breindl","startTime":1588.07,"endTime":1590.26,"body":"I think it's a very important area."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1590.26,"endTime":1591.52,"body":"I appreciate it. Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1591.52,"endTime":1595.3,"body":"And if you would like to read more about this report, I'll put a link to it in the show"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1595.3,"endTime":1598.44,"body":"notes for this episode of the LLAMA podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1598.45,"endTime":1600.6399999999999,"body":"You can find that at our website, LLAMApodcast.com."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1600.6699999999998,"endTime":1604.12,"body":"That's LLAMAPodcast.com."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1604.99,"endTime":1607.96,"body":"The LLAMA podcast is a Health Spun Media production."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1607.96,"endTime":1610.0,"body":"We'll be back soon with another episode."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1610.0,"endTime":1613.54,"body":"In the meantime, I wish you the best of health and thank you for listening."}]}