{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":3.59,"endTime":5.3,"body":"Longevity, health, happiness, joy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":5.3,"endTime":9.11,"body":"These are all things that I think are really important for human beings."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":9.14,"endTime":12.11,"body":"As long as, of course, it's within our capacity."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":12.11,"endTime":15.47,"body":"That's to say it doesn't breach a threshold that's comfortable."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":21.5,"endTime":25.31,"body":"Hello again and welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":25.31,"endTime":30.86,"body":"I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity."},{"speaker":"SPONSOR ","startTime":30.86,"endTime":35.81,"body":"This episode is brought to you in association with Clinique La Prairie, the award winning"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR ","startTime":35.81,"endTime":39.41,"body":"spa clinic and pioneering health and wellness destination."},{"speaker":"SPONSOR ","startTime":39.41,"endTime":42.86,"body":"Nestled on the shores of Lake Geneva in Montreux, Switzerland."},{"speaker":"SPONSOR ","startTime":42.89,"endTime":48.77,"body":"Combining preventative medicine with bespoke lifestyle and nutrition plans, Clinique La"},{"speaker":"SPONSOR ","startTime":48.77,"endTime":53.99,"body":"Prairie offers a holistic approach to living fuller, healthier and longer lives."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":56.3,"endTime":58.69,"body":"One of the beautiful things about human beings is we're all different."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":58.7,"endTime":62.4,"body":"We all have different tendencies, characteristics, genes and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":62.7,"endTime":67.38,"body":"And what is longevity for one person will be very different to another person."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":67.38,"endTime":72.93,"body":"And I think one of the most important things to recognize is that the most important"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":72.93,"endTime":79.56,"body":"thing in life is to experience as much joy, contentment, purpose, meaning as you possibly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":79.56,"endTime":80.22,"body":"can."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":80.25,"endTime":85.2,"body":"Thomas Curran is a professor of psychology at the London School of Economics and the"},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":85.2,"endTime":90.49,"body":"Embracing the Power of Good Enough."},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":90.51,"endTime":93.42,"body":"But is Good Enough good enough?"},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":93.42,"endTime":98.7,"body":"In an age when everyone seems to be striving to be the best, whether it be through social"},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":98.7,"endTime":105.03,"body":"media, through school, or even through our aspirations to live the best and, dare I say"},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":105.03,"endTime":107.76,"body":"it, the longest life possible."},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":107.79,"endTime":111.72,"body":"Thom, welcome back to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"author of The Perfection Trap","startTime":111.75,"endTime":112.11,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":112.11,"endTime":114.46,"body":"Peter. It's great to talk to you again."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":114.48,"endTime":118.56,"body":"Yeah, good to talk to you. And I say welcome back because we have chatted about this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":118.56,"endTime":123.87,"body":"subject before back in 2018 in Palm Springs, in California."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":123.9,"endTime":129.84,"body":"You write about it - the experience in your book, speaking, delivering a talk at the TED"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":129.84,"endTime":131.58,"body":"conference, which is going on then."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":131.58,"endTime":135.45,"body":"And if anyone wants to go back, it's episode 91 on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":135.48,"endTime":141.42,"body":"You'll get some of the background as to what Thom is talking about, but you cover much of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":141.42,"endTime":145.56,"body":"what is in the talk in the book, and there are plenty of new thoughts as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":145.56,"endTime":147.66,"body":"And I want to delve into that with you, Thom."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":147.66,"endTime":153.0,"body":"But maybe first of all, that Palm Springs or La Quinta experience, to be precise, a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":153.0,"endTime":156.16,"body":"little enclave further out of Palm Springs."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":156.18,"endTime":160.77,"body":"You write about it in the book and you introduce everyone in your talk to what you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":160.77,"endTime":164.73,"body":"describe as everyone's favorite flaw - perfectionism."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":164.73,"endTime":168.3,"body":"That's what you write about in the book, but you also write about the experience of being"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":168.3,"endTime":171.42,"body":"at a TED conference, and you talk about the venue."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":171.45,"endTime":177.24,"body":"A dreamland of manicured perfection kind of made me smile when I read that, because I"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":177.24,"endTime":182.53,"body":"also felt a little bit like a fish out of water being in that kind of setting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":182.55,"endTime":183.69,"body":"How was it for you?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":183.72,"endTime":190.26,"body":"Very, very strange feeling coming from a different world with less experience of these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":190.26,"endTime":196.77,"body":"kind of settings, particularly in a US context as well, where everything is on overdrive,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":196.77,"endTime":203.46,"body":"so to speak. It's all about the pristine nature of the resort, the kind and welcoming"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":203.46,"endTime":208.08,"body":"that you get from the staff, the effervescence that you get from the delegates and the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":208.11,"endTime":210.96,"body":"and the people who are organizing the TED event."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":211.56,"endTime":217.8,"body":"It's all an amplification, I suppose, of what you typically experience as an academic"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":217.8,"endTime":219.66,"body":"going to conferences."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":219.66,"endTime":223.35,"body":"And it's very new, it's very strange and very surreal."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":223.35,"endTime":228.51,"body":"And so a lot of those experiences have stayed with me when I was reflecting on my own"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":228.51,"endTime":234.78,"body":"perfectionism in the book as, as things that I struggled a little bit to to deal with, it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":234.78,"endTime":237.72,"body":"was on top of all the pressure of delivering a talk."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":237.75,"endTime":243.6,"body":"You're now in this new world where you don't quite feel like you belong and everybody is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":243.6,"endTime":245.58,"body":"sort of speaks almost a different language."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":245.58,"endTime":251.58,"body":"And you are mistaken for somebody who is a support worker rather than a speaker on a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":251.58,"endTime":252.69,"body":"couple of occasions."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":252.69,"endTime":255.15,"body":"So that also didn't help my nerves."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":255.24,"endTime":260.1,"body":"And it was really just just one of those experiences where I'll never forget it totally"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":260.1,"endTime":263.1,"body":"new. I probably will never go through it again."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":263.13,"endTime":265.05,"body":"It taught me a lot actually, about myself."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":265.05,"endTime":270.57,"body":"It taught me a lot about my perfectionism and how it impacts me in new situations, new"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":270.57,"endTime":274.8,"body":"contexts where I don't feel like I quite belong, if that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":274.8,"endTime":275.85,"body":"Yeah, it does make sense."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":276.15,"endTime":280.23,"body":"It is quite a big I mean, you frame it like that, I think because it is actually quite or"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":280.26,"endTime":284.04,"body":"it's seen as being quite a big deal to deliver a TED talk."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":284.04,"endTime":289.23,"body":"It's something that stays with you, stays with everyone because it is up there for you to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":289.23,"endTime":292.5,"body":"go warts and all, for people to go and review."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":292.53,"endTime":298.53,"body":"Many years later, I was fascinated by the whole process and your talk was on the final"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":298.53,"endTime":302.53,"body":"afternoon. I remember. Standing at the back of the hall and just watching it and having"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":302.53,"endTime":304.54,"body":"already interviewed you for this podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":304.54,"endTime":309.49,"body":"So I knew in advance some of the content, but my thought at the end of it was you did"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":309.49,"endTime":311.08,"body":"good. I mean, the guy nailed it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":311.11,"endTime":312.88,"body":"It was a good talk."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":312.91,"endTime":316.84,"body":"I imagine extremely nerve wracking in that kind of setting to deliver."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":316.84,"endTime":321.28,"body":"But what interests me and you write about in this book is that you weren't entirely"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":321.28,"endTime":322.99,"body":"satisfied with how it went."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":322.99,"endTime":326.47,"body":"It wasn't so much your own performance, but it was the audience reaction."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":326.56,"endTime":329.08,"body":"There's all sorts of there's all sorts of things you worry about."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":329.44,"endTime":332.8,"body":"And you go back to I mean, you were right - I was on the last day."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":332.8,"endTime":338.29,"body":"And what you get to do at these events is you get to watch everything else unfold."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":338.29,"endTime":342.97,"body":"And the very first talk of the Ted conference really stayed with me because it was just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":342.97,"endTime":345.76,"body":"perfect, flawless, incredible talk."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":346.03,"endTime":348.48,"body":"The probably the best talk I've seen."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":348.49,"endTime":353.32,"body":"If you were to ask me to recall like what the content was or who even who even gave it, I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":353.32,"endTime":354.4,"body":"couldn't tell you."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":354.64,"endTime":358.45,"body":"But I just remember it being just completely flawless."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":358.45,"endTime":361.33,"body":"And that's how you know, that's how you open a conference."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":361.33,"endTime":364.93,"body":"And the person delivering that talk clearly knew what they were doing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":364.93,"endTime":369.58,"body":"But of course, when you're coming in and this is such a big event and you see that, you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":369.58,"endTime":373.6,"body":"instantly make a comparison that, you know, you can never live up to that, that you just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":373.6,"endTime":377.92,"body":"can't. There's no way that in three days you can get yourself to a position where you're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":377.92,"endTime":385.03,"body":"giving that same level of engagement and enthusiasm and to be met at the end with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":385.03,"endTime":386.38,"body":"raucous, rapturous applause."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":386.41,"endTime":388.02,"body":"It's just it's just not going to happen."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":388.03,"endTime":393.58,"body":"So you feel very you instantly feel in comparison that this is not going to go well"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":393.76,"endTime":395.8,"body":"anyway as the ebb and flow goes."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":395.8,"endTime":400.39,"body":"You you do you do recognize and see that actually, you know, not everyone talks quite as"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":400.39,"endTime":406.39,"body":"good as that, but still the level is high and it comes to your time to go and nothing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":406.39,"endTime":407.41,"body":"really prepares you."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":407.41,"endTime":413.17,"body":"There's a very enthusiastic, sweet words of encouragement from people backstage, but as a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":413.17,"endTime":418.0,"body":"sort of introverted Brit, that's not really the the preparation I needed."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":418.09,"endTime":423.82,"body":"But nevertheless, I was thrust on stage and then and then all I remember is, is just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":423.82,"endTime":425.5,"body":"giving the 15 minute talk."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":425.8,"endTime":429.61,"body":"Everything you prepare because they give you a speech writers and they show you how you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":429.61,"endTime":434.08,"body":"know, they give you an acting coach, show you the body language and how to talk and when"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":434.08,"endTime":435.73,"body":"to emphasize and how to move your hands."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":435.73,"endTime":437.27,"body":"And all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":437.27,"endTime":438.34,"body":"Goes from your mind."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":438.58,"endTime":440.56,"body":"Might as well have not taught me those things."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":440.56,"endTime":443.23,"body":"Might as well have not invested in those people to teach you those people, because it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":443.23,"endTime":446.23,"body":"instantly goes from, you know, none of that matters in that moment."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":446.23,"endTime":448.15,"body":"All that matters is you get it to the end."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":448.36,"endTime":456.67,"body":"So I did get to the end and I finished and in my mind there was a nice polite applause"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":457.0,"endTime":458.47,"body":"and then ushered off stage."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":458.47,"endTime":463.36,"body":"And of course, the reaction wasn't quite the raucous reception that other speakers had"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":463.36,"endTime":466.93,"body":"got. So I kind of left in my mind that this was kind of okay."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":466.93,"endTime":470.2,"body":"It wasn't really that great a talk, and I knew in my bones that it really wasn't that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":470.2,"endTime":476.98,"body":"great at all because I hadn't applied any of the any of the help and support and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":476.98,"endTime":478.39,"body":"suggestions that had been given."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":478.39,"endTime":483.16,"body":"So, you know, and I also thought in my mind, weirdly, like I'd forgotten a couple of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":483.16,"endTime":484.69,"body":"lines I could convince myself."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":484.69,"endTime":487.3,"body":"And the problem is you can't see the talk back."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":487.3,"endTime":488.41,"body":"So that's the thing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":488.41,"endTime":493.09,"body":"Like the the first time you see it is when it's head of released it to their millions of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":493.09,"endTime":496.72,"body":"followers. So so that was also on my mind too."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":496.72,"endTime":501.79,"body":"Like I couldn't tell whether like how I'd done because there was no way to instantly know"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":501.79,"endTime":504.49,"body":"apart from my own anxieties and my own worries about it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":504.49,"endTime":506.38,"body":"So I ruminated a lot."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":506.38,"endTime":507.73,"body":"I worried about it a lot."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":507.73,"endTime":512.23,"body":"And the reason why I wrote about it, about that, that those feelings in my book is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":512.23,"endTime":517.87,"body":"because I'm myself am a perfectionistic person and those types of moments in our lives"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":517.9,"endTime":521.59,"body":"teach us something really important about ourselves when we're putting those situations,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":521.59,"endTime":522.88,"body":"how we manage it, how we cope."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":522.88,"endTime":527.83,"body":"Because some people can just fly like the first speaker, but other people like me are very"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":527.83,"endTime":529.9,"body":"much more worried about how we're going to look."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":529.93,"endTime":532.63,"body":"And our main motivation really is not to screw up."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":532.72,"endTime":534.16,"body":"That's the most important thing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":534.49,"endTime":539.86,"body":"It's not to make a really successful erudite talk, but it's actually don't capitulate in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":539.86,"endTime":542.74,"body":"this moment. Get through just get it done."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":542.74,"endTime":544.63,"body":"And then you can breathe a sigh of relief."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":544.66,"endTime":547.69,"body":"Yeah, those are the psychology, that's the experience."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":547.69,"endTime":551.44,"body":"And I wanted to bring that to I really wanted to write about that in the book because I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":551.44,"endTime":553.03,"body":"think a lot of people feel those things too."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":553.03,"endTime":557.47,"body":"I hear a lot of my students friends, people who are petrified of doing things publicly,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":557.47,"endTime":561.4,"body":"whether it be a talk or whether it be a project even, you know, whether it be like"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":561.4,"endTime":568.87,"body":"something simple, like hosting a meeting or chairing a meeting or organizing an event."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":568.87,"endTime":570.37,"body":"Like it's just little things."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":570.37,"endTime":575.17,"body":"But we feel because it's such a public thing to do, we feel very nervous about screwing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":575.17,"endTime":579.67,"body":"up. And so I wanted really to bring that experience into the book to show that that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":579.67,"endTime":584.11,"body":"normal. A lot of people feel that, and if you're high on perfectionism, you're likely to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":584.11,"endTime":585.61,"body":"feel those things very intensely."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":585.82,"endTime":592.3,"body":"I'm wondering if you have had a different reaction to pretty much the same talk, but with"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":592.3,"endTime":593.71,"body":"a different audience."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":593.71,"endTime":599.13,"body":"So in other words, the perhaps, as you saw it, a sort of muted reception from a Ted."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":599.21,"endTime":603.86,"body":"Audience. Has that been different to your experience with other audiences essentially"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":603.86,"endTime":605.18,"body":"saying the same thing?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":605.18,"endTime":608.78,"body":"And where I'm going with this is, is there something about the character, the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":608.78,"endTime":615.59,"body":"demographics or whatever of that very specific audience that affected their opinions on"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":615.59,"endTime":617.15,"body":"the subject that you were talking about?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":617.15,"endTime":621.8,"body":"And maybe there was an element of disagreement amongst the audience with what they heard"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":621.8,"endTime":622.94,"body":"from you?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":622.94,"endTime":627.05,"body":"I am not sure. It's really difficult to compare and contrast because I do talks all the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":627.05,"endTime":633.68,"body":"time. I give lectures on a weekly basis and to students and often I'm asked to do talks"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":633.68,"endTime":636.17,"body":"to organizations."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":636.59,"endTime":641.0,"body":"There's something about the TED experience that everything about it, it just ramps it up"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":641.0,"endTime":642.17,"body":"so, so high."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":642.2,"endTime":647.63,"body":"You know, and every talk I give, actually I still have nerves, but that was like unreal."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":647.63,"endTime":652.7,"body":"So, you know, like just because it's so important, you know, it's going to be viewed by"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":652.7,"endTime":654.65,"body":"so many people. And, you know, people are going to have opinions."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":654.65,"endTime":656.33,"body":"You know, they're going to feed back."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":656.36,"endTime":660.21,"body":"There's going to be comments underneath the video that some are good, some are bad."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":660.21,"endTime":663.06,"body":"You know, you just know that this is a really big thing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":663.06,"endTime":665.76,"body":"Whereas for those other events, the only people that are going to see it really are the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":665.76,"endTime":666.84,"body":"cohort that you're doing it to."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":666.87,"endTime":672.72,"body":"So the the nerve levels are not quite as high and the reception that you get from them is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":673.05,"endTime":676.53,"body":"more akin to what you would expect in those settings, because what you're there really to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":676.53,"endTime":677.94,"body":"do is educate and inform."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":677.94,"endTime":681.57,"body":"But I think the TED talk is really about educating, informing and entertaining."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":681.58,"endTime":687.15,"body":"Like there's an extra third element to the TEDx talk, which is which is very unique and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":687.15,"endTime":689.16,"body":"different to what you would do in other contexts."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":689.16,"endTime":693.63,"body":"So, you know, when you're when you're lecturing or you're giving talks, firms like that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":693.63,"endTime":697.5,"body":"fine because you're there to impart information and hopefully most of the time people"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":697.5,"endTime":699.6,"body":"take really, you know, some useful learnings away."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":699.6,"endTime":703.71,"body":"But yeah, that entertainment element, that third one, which requires, by the way, things"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":703.71,"endTime":709.35,"body":"like creativity, confidence, being able to be kind of spontaneous on stage and let the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":709.38,"endTime":711.78,"body":"let the event lead you in certain ways."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":711.78,"endTime":713.34,"body":"Let the audience feed off the audience."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":713.34,"endTime":715.95,"body":"All these things that you need to be agile and perfectionistic."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":715.95,"endTime":717.51,"body":"People just are unable to do that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":717.51,"endTime":721.53,"body":"They have to be very rigid and think very straight and narrow terms of what do I need to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":721.53,"endTime":723.21,"body":"do to get to the end?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":723.21,"endTime":725.48,"body":"And everything else kind of melts away."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":725.49,"endTime":729.96,"body":"So it's that it's that part of the TED talk that I think is most intimidating."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":729.96,"endTime":734.64,"body":"And that's why I think I had difficulty accepting that actually it was good enough, even"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":734.64,"endTime":736.8,"body":"though at the time I thought it, I thought it wasn't."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":736.8,"endTime":740.79,"body":"Looking back, I can reflect and understand it was good enough talk, but at the time I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":740.79,"endTime":742.29,"body":"really didn't think that at all."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":742.29,"endTime":745.95,"body":"And I guess that's the hallmark of a perfectionist to some extent."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":745.98,"endTime":750.3,"body":"You also write in your book that you, with the passage of time, are not particularly"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":750.3,"endTime":756.41,"body":"happy with the title of the talk, which was our Dangerous Obsession with Perfection."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":756.42,"endTime":759.54,"body":"You'd have rather labeled it in a different way."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":759.9,"endTime":762.93,"body":"Well, I did have a little bit of input, but not not a great deal."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":762.93,"endTime":767.01,"body":"So a lot of the title was really picked for me in some ways."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":767.01,"endTime":768.9,"body":"But nevertheless, you know, it was passed by you."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":768.9,"endTime":771.78,"body":"I could have made adjustments if I really pushed for them."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":771.99,"endTime":773.55,"body":"I didn't choose to at the time."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":773.55,"endTime":778.59,"body":"But as you say, thinking about perfectionism now, over the last few years, doing a lot of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":778.59,"endTime":783.68,"body":"work in this area, it's become evident to me that this isn't really our obsession, that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":783.68,"endTime":788.64,"body":"that kind of puts the emphasis on us as individuals to to figure out what's wrong with us"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":788.64,"endTime":790.11,"body":"and why we're so obsessed with perfection."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":790.11,"endTime":795.93,"body":"But really, actually, this is a societal problem, a cultural affliction that if we want"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":795.93,"endTime":800.28,"body":"to understand both where it comes from and how we overcome it, we have to take a little"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":800.28,"endTime":804.96,"body":"bit of a broader lens and look at what's happening over broader in broader society that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":804.96,"endTime":809.64,"body":"creating those pressures to be perfect, that people are young people in particular, but"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":809.64,"endTime":814.17,"body":"people in general are internalizing and interpreting the need and desire to be perfect."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":814.26,"endTime":819.66,"body":"Well, the talk has been, I think I'm correct in saying viewed more than 3 million times"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":819.69,"endTime":826.26,"body":"last time I checked, what difference giving that talk has it made to you and to your"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":826.26,"endTime":826.82,"body":"career?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":826.83,"endTime":829.56,"body":"Oh, of course. Like a massive, massive difference."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":829.65,"endTime":832.29,"body":"Without the TED talk, it didn't wouldn't have been able to write the book."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":832.29,"endTime":837.03,"body":"And without the book, I don't get to talk to people like yourself about the issues"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":837.33,"endTime":840.39,"body":"surrounding perfectionism and my perspective on where it comes from."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":840.57,"endTime":843.99,"body":"And without those things, there is no warning."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":843.99,"endTime":850.74,"body":"There is no mythbusting I think left to its own devices, perfectionism will continue to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":850.74,"endTime":856.05,"body":"be disguised concealed as a positive trait in broader culture, and we wouldn't have been"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":856.05,"endTime":861.84,"body":"able to talk about the negative parts of it and how actually what we think is something"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":861.84,"endTime":865.68,"body":"that holds us up in the world, something that makes us successful or is actually no such"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":865.68,"endTime":869.46,"body":"thing. And so it's been incredibly important in that respect."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":869.46,"endTime":874.74,"body":"And I hope that through the TED Talk and hopefully through the book, we can start to have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":874.74,"endTime":878.07,"body":"meaningful conversations about what perfectionism really is and what it really does to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":878.07,"endTime":878.22,"body":"us."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":878.22,"endTime":885.48,"body":"So let's put TED to one side and go back to, I guess, the basic the fundamental principles"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":885.48,"endTime":888.9,"body":"behind your thinking in terms of perfectionism."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":888.9,"endTime":892.92,"body":"\"Everyone's favorite flaw\"is the way that you have introduced it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":892.92,"endTime":896.39,"body":"Could you explain again what you're getting at there?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":896.4,"endTime":900.3,"body":"This is something that people will often say about themselves when they're trying to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":900.3,"endTime":901.61,"body":"promote themselves."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":901.62,"endTime":906.9,"body":"Yeah, I start my TEDTalk off with more or less the same quote that I start my book off in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":906.93,"endTime":914.37,"body":"that we have in modern society a begrudging admiration for perfectionism."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":914.94,"endTime":921.15,"body":"I think we know, don't we, that it has this negative baggage that can at some level make"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":921.18,"endTime":925.08,"body":"us feel not enough insecure and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":925.08,"endTime":931.08,"body":"But on the other hand, those anxieties and worries actually drive us forward, that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":931.08,"endTime":933.03,"body":"they're the things that make us successful."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":933.03,"endTime":938.16,"body":"And if it wasn't for perfectionism, then we wouldn't be able to lift ourselves above all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":938.16,"endTime":942.75,"body":"sorts of other people in the world at work, sports, media, whatever it is that we're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":942.75,"endTime":945.12,"body":"trying to whatever context is we're trying to achieve."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":945.12,"endTime":948.81,"body":"And without that intense inner drive, we don't think we're going to get there."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":948.81,"endTime":954.45,"body":"So that's why we tell our interviewers that our biggest weakness is perfectionism,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":954.6,"endTime":959.2,"body":"because we think that's the socially desirable weakness, the weakness that we're so much"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":959.2,"endTime":960.64,"body":"better for having."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":960.64,"endTime":964.03,"body":"As I say, this is something we see everywhere."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":964.03,"endTime":968.17,"body":"You know, I tried in the book talk about it not just as a person level, but in broader"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":968.17,"endTime":969.37,"body":"culture too."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":969.46,"endTime":974.56,"body":"I was particularly struck when, for instance, I traveled through the Queens terminal in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":974.59,"endTime":980.86,"body":"Heathrow. On the way to the TED Talk, there is a cafe called the Perfectionist Cafe."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":980.98,"endTime":985.84,"body":"And then you look around you at the billboards and the advertising screens and everything"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":985.84,"endTime":989.53,"body":"has this kind of pristine, flawless image of a perfect life and lifestyle that we could"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":989.53,"endTime":995.02,"body":"have if we looked a certain way, bought a certain product, it subscribed to a certain"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":995.02,"endTime":1001.17,"body":"service. And so out there right now in broader culture is an intense radiation, I think"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1001.17,"endTime":1006.36,"body":"of perfect lives, perfect lifestyles, perfect people, the one 0.1%, the unicorn"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1006.36,"endTime":1008.85,"body":"achievers, these are the people we platform."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1008.85,"endTime":1009.96,"body":"These are the people we celebrate."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1009.96,"endTime":1015.54,"body":"These are the people we chat to on podcasts and documentaries and write movies about and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1015.54,"endTime":1021.39,"body":"all the rest of it. And that for me really is is the crux of this obsession with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1021.39,"endTime":1022.95,"body":"perfection in modern society."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1022.98,"endTime":1028.5,"body":"You know, we just celebrate these unrealistic ideals to the extent that everybody in all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1028.5,"endTime":1034.02,"body":"around us seems to be looking at them, interpreting them and finding them, not only are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1034.02,"endTime":1038.95,"body":"they desirable us to say that I want to be like that, but it's some level that it's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1038.96,"endTime":1042.81,"body":"something eminently obtainable if we just apply ourselves."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1042.81,"endTime":1048.66,"body":"And that's the danger that when we try to shoot for perfection, we try to shoot for these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1048.66,"endTime":1050.64,"body":"unrealistic ideals and ultimately fall short."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1050.94,"endTime":1053.13,"body":"That's when you start to see the problems."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1053.25,"endTime":1058.53,"body":"And you. And just to illustrate this point, you refer to a number of celebrities in your"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1058.53,"endTime":1060.45,"body":"book. You quote from a few."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1060.45,"endTime":1064.98,"body":"I'll just mention one. Michelle Pfeiffer, referring to herself as a perfectionist."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1064.98,"endTime":1070.38,"body":"She says, \"I think that's one of the reasons I'm successful because I really care about"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1070.38,"endTime":1076.17,"body":"what I do.\" And there are many, many other examples of celebrities and I guess amplified"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1076.17,"endTime":1081.48,"body":"through social media these days of living the perfect life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1081.48,"endTime":1085.08,"body":"And that is for many people and especially younger people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1085.08,"endTime":1091.02,"body":"That is the crux of the problem, isn't it, that they are aspiring or we are aspiring as a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1091.02,"endTime":1097.74,"body":"people to be like these icons of perfectionism to a point that really very, very few of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1097.74,"endTime":1101.31,"body":"us can rise, that we can't live those lives."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1101.31,"endTime":1106.71,"body":"Yeah. Nassim Taleb did a really interesting analysis recently, used the context of sports,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1106.71,"endTime":1109.41,"body":"but I think it applies to all all contexts."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1109.59,"endTime":1113.94,"body":"And he calculated that in order to make it to the very top of any discipline in this case"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1113.94,"endTime":1116.88,"body":"sport, you need to be a Six Sigma individual."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1116.88,"endTime":1119.22,"body":"So by the way, these are the people that we platform, right?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1119.22,"endTime":1122.52,"body":"These people at the very top six single individuals, six standard deviations away from"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1122.52,"endTime":1126.3,"body":"the mean 1 in 1 point 4 million people will make it into that elite bracket."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1127.41,"endTime":1129.36,"body":"Look, it's not saying that you can't get there."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1129.39,"endTime":1130.68,"body":"Of course you can."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1130.68,"endTime":1138.96,"body":"But the chances are so slim and require, by the way, things to happen that are completely"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1138.96,"endTime":1142.44,"body":"out of your control, like being in the right social circumstances, meeting the right"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1142.44,"endTime":1144.03,"body":"people, having the right connections."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1144.03,"endTime":1149.76,"body":"If you're an athlete, having the genes that give you all sorts of physical attributes"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1149.76,"endTime":1153.84,"body":"that mean you'll be successful in a certain sport, you know, there are things that we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1153.84,"endTime":1156.84,"body":"just cannot control that are also important to that success."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1156.84,"endTime":1161.1,"body":"But if all we see is the tip of the iceberg and all we see here is people describing how"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1161.1,"endTime":1165.57,"body":"their perfectionism has driven us to has led them to the top, when actually other factors"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1165.57,"endTime":1170.43,"body":"were more important. Then we're going to think ourselves we need to hold those tendencies"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1170.43,"endTime":1176.1,"body":"to. And by celebrating those unicorn achievers, all we're really doing is giving people a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1176.1,"endTime":1182.94,"body":"very warped sense of what's achievable and what's normal, I suppose."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1183.12,"endTime":1185.73,"body":"So I think that's part of the problem for sure."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1186.06,"endTime":1192.6,"body":"And what's interesting to me is, is very often when some of these high, high achievers get"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1192.6,"endTime":1196.62,"body":"into trouble, they fall off the their pedestal, they do something wrong, they do"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1196.62,"endTime":1201.03,"body":"something bad. And there's that mea culpa moment there's that apology on television,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1201.06,"endTime":1207.19,"body":"often the word perfection / perfectionist comes into the the statement that they issue."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1207.21,"endTime":1209.53,"body":"I'm not a perfect person."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1209.55,"endTime":1210.81,"body":"No one is."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1210.81,"endTime":1216.72,"body":"So there is that acknowledgment, isn't there, when in a really sticky moment, people have"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1216.72,"endTime":1221.85,"body":"to think about what they've done and acknowledge that even they are not perfect."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1222.27,"endTime":1227.25,"body":"Absolutely. And I think that's part of the problem, actually, in modern society, that we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1227.25,"endTime":1235.5,"body":"hold high profile figures up to such a high bar that once they fail or fall short or in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1235.5,"endTime":1241.8,"body":"some way make mistakes, that we're ready to pounce very quickly and blame them when"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1241.8,"endTime":1244.68,"body":"really what we should be trying to do is explain."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1244.89,"endTime":1248.37,"body":"We should explain more and blame less and try to understand why it was that people were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1248.37,"endTime":1252.03,"body":"put in those situations, made those mistakes or did the wrong thing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1252.54,"endTime":1254.1,"body":"I think that's so, so important."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1254.1,"endTime":1259.35,"body":"And look, you know, after that process, we might still conclude that these people are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1259.35,"endTime":1261.21,"body":"beyond the pale and should be condemned or whatever."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1261.21,"endTime":1262.35,"body":"We can make that judgment."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1262.47,"endTime":1267.57,"body":"It does speak to how how excessively expectant we are for people, particularly people in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1267.57,"endTime":1271.98,"body":"the public eye, to hold such an unrealistic levels of behavior or conduct."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1271.98,"endTime":1277.29,"body":"And I think it behooves us really to try to, as I say, rather than pointing the finger"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1277.29,"endTime":1278.64,"body":"instantly and reacting."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1278.67,"endTime":1281.67,"body":"Try to understand why it was that people were put in those situations, why they made"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1281.67,"endTime":1286.02,"body":"those mistakes and trying to apply a little bit more compassion than we than we currently"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1286.02,"endTime":1289.5,"body":"do. Because if we because if we continue the way we're doing, then everybody's going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1289.5,"endTime":1290.79,"body":"put up a shield of perfection."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1290.79,"endTime":1293.76,"body":"They're never going to admit that they were wrong or to their mistakes."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1293.76,"endTime":1296.52,"body":"They're going to try and bluster and push through."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1296.52,"endTime":1301.83,"body":"And that's not a healthy way to engage in political debate or reflect on a poor athletic"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1301.83,"endTime":1303.48,"body":"performance or whatever context it's in."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1303.48,"endTime":1307.14,"body":"I think sometimes it's better to be very human, but you're very vulnerable and accept"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1307.14,"endTime":1309.54,"body":"that we make mistakes and be allowed to do that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1309.78,"endTime":1310.77,"body":"I think that's really important."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1348.6,"endTime":1354.06,"body":"Since we've spoken before, it was 2018, social media has developed."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1354.09,"endTime":1357.49,"body":"There have been new sites, some sites have gone out of fashion."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1357.49,"endTime":1362.71,"body":"And in your book you give quite a nice historic perspective in terms of how we use social"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1362.71,"endTime":1365.11,"body":"media from the early days of Facebook."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1365.4099999999999,"endTime":1369.22,"body":"Nice platform just to talk to your friends, to exchange messages."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1369.22,"endTime":1371.59,"body":"And we all know how Facebook has developed."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1371.62,"endTime":1372.6699999999998,"body":"We know its reputation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1372.6699999999998,"endTime":1377.62,"body":"There's Instagram now and myriad other sites as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1377.8899999999999,"endTime":1385.03,"body":"Is social media getting it in terms of its responsibility or are things still exploding"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1385.03,"endTime":1386.05,"body":"out of control?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1386.06,"endTime":1388.9299999999998,"body":"Which side of the seesaw are we on?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1389.8,"endTime":1392.8,"body":"Well, social media is a really interesting one because I actually think social media has"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1392.8,"endTime":1394.87,"body":"so much human value."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1395.32,"endTime":1398.5,"body":"I mean, when you think about what it was originally designed to do, it was designed to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1398.5,"endTime":1403.36,"body":"connect us, to connect us around common interests and causes, to bring us together in our"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1403.36,"endTime":1408.76,"body":"communities, to organize offline events, to get together and figure out where we're going"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1408.76,"endTime":1411.22,"body":"to meet at a certain time in a certain place."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1411.97,"endTime":1416.29,"body":"And it's morphed into this online world now where the imperative is to keep people"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1416.29,"endTime":1423.49,"body":"online, not offline, to continually have them scrolling through the platforms and at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1423.49,"endTime":1427.12,"body":"various intersections, feeding them targeted advertisements."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1427.1299999999999,"endTime":1430.9299999999998,"body":"And by the way, this is no different to, you know, television or traditional analog forms"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1430.9299999999998,"endTime":1434.62,"body":"of advertising. You know, you're watching a football game and then in the in the mid-term"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1434.62,"endTime":1440.1699999999998,"body":"break, you're bombarded with advertisements telling you about what's wrong and material"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1440.1699999999998,"endTime":1441.3999999999999,"body":"solutions to fix them."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1441.3999999999999,"endTime":1447.1,"body":"No different except social media as a form of media is with us 24 / 7."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1447.28,"endTime":1453.04,"body":"So the big difference, the big difference here is that it's everywhere now."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1453.04,"endTime":1461.44,"body":"Wherever we go, we're followed by these limitless images of perfect lives people living,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1462.1,"endTime":1468.1599999999999,"body":"you know, extravagant luxury lifestyles, looking perfect and having the perfect, uh, I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1468.1599999999999,"endTime":1474.04,"body":"don't know, family, having the perfect, um, uh, life and lifestyle."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1474.28,"endTime":1478.48,"body":"And of course, you know, that's that's a lot, you know, that's a lot for particularly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1480.6699999999998,"body":"young people to be exposed to."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1480.6699999999998,"endTime":1485.29,"body":"And I think we're seeing in a lot of the data that young people are struggling with that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1485.74,"endTime":1488.47,"body":"we're seeing in Meta or Facebook's own data."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1488.47,"endTime":1491.5,"body":"Actually, the young people have struggled with that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1491.5,"endTime":1496.21,"body":"And and, you know, I think it is certainly part of the if we want to understand why"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1496.24,"endTime":1499.24,"body":"perfection, rising social media is certainly a big piece."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1499.45,"endTime":1505.12,"body":"But I think it's the it doesn't mean to say that there isn't a parts of social media that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1505.12,"endTime":1506.21,"body":"can be incredibly useful."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1506.21,"endTime":1507.81,"body":"It can be incredibly valuable."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1507.82,"endTime":1511.6599999999999,"body":"It's just that the, you know, the imperative for social media companies, just like any"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1511.75,"endTime":1514.33,"body":"other company, is to grow, to generate revenues."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1514.33,"endTime":1516.19,"body":"And the way they do that is through advertising."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1516.19,"endTime":1521.74,"body":"And and so it's in their in their interest to continually to instill in a sense of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1521.74,"endTime":1524.74,"body":"deficit, a sense of lack into which, you know, consumption thrives."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1524.74,"endTime":1526.1799999999998,"body":"And that's no different."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1526.36,"endTime":1530.4099999999999,"body":"I have to reiterate to any other forms of advertising that occur in any other forms of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1530.4099999999999,"endTime":1534.31,"body":"media. Um, the difference, as I mentioned, is it's just with us all the time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1534.6699999999998,"endTime":1535.84,"body":"You write in the book."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1535.97,"endTime":1543.2,"body":"That self-compassion is probably one of the best tools to help us lead a more contented"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1543.2,"endTime":1550.28,"body":"life, perhaps to draw us away from the the social media that is pulling us in one"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1550.28,"endTime":1553.1599999999999,"body":"direction. What do you mean by self-compassion?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1553.25,"endTime":1560.3,"body":"Self-compassion is really the biggest single antidote to perfectionistic thinking, because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1560.33,"endTime":1563.78,"body":"perfectionists will worry all the time about how they're looking, how they're appearing,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1563.78,"endTime":1565.49,"body":"particularly in public areas."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1565.49,"endTime":1571.61,"body":"Right. And and if there's any chink in the armor that's revealed, that kind of reveals a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1571.61,"endTime":1578.6,"body":"imperfect, flawed self that deep down we know exists, but that we're trying to disguise"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1578.6,"endTime":1580.6399999999999,"body":"and conceal from everyone and all around us."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1580.6699999999998,"endTime":1587.51,"body":"Once those defects and flaws are revealed, then we're exceptionally self-critical because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1587.51,"endTime":1591.59,"body":"that that's shown the world now that actually we're not this perfect person that we're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1591.59,"endTime":1595.8799999999999,"body":"trying to project into the world, that we're trying to just live perfect life, perfect"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1595.98,"endTime":1601.1299999999999,"body":"life style, appearance, job, family, whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1601.1299999999999,"endTime":1603.84,"body":"The image that we're trying to manage into the world."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1603.84,"endTime":1610.29,"body":"Once that gets, once that, you know, once any, any form of vulnerability or flaw is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1610.29,"endTime":1614.57,"body":"exposed, we feel intensely self-conscious and we go in on ourselves."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1614.58,"endTime":1618.51,"body":"So the most important thing to do in those situations when we don't feel like we've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1618.51,"endTime":1624.72,"body":"succeeded or we feel like we've met some kind of shortcoming or exposed some kind of flaw"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1624.72,"endTime":1630.78,"body":"is to be kind and to show compassion for ourselves in those situations that we are an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1630.78,"endTime":1634.44,"body":"imperfect human being. Everybody is imperfect and nobody can be made perfect."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1634.44,"endTime":1638.87,"body":"And so when we do make mistakes and slip up, that's just natural, normal, inevitable."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1638.87,"endTime":1645.3,"body":"And instead of asking, so how can we be so stupid telling ourselves it's okay, You know,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1645.3,"endTime":1646.98,"body":"it's there's always next time."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1646.98,"endTime":1651.51,"body":"And this isn't as catastrophic as perhaps your perfectionism would tell you it is."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1651.84,"endTime":1656.22,"body":"That there's a learning opportunity that we can perhaps use this maybe for growth."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1656.22,"endTime":1665.97,"body":"Not all the time, but sometimes, and there'this failure hasn't ruined our"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1665.97,"endTime":1670.35,"body":"future. It hasn't, you know, it hasn't exposed to everyone how flawed we are."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1670.98,"endTime":1676.2,"body":"That, that actually, you know, we've got people around us who love us, um, who accept us"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1676.2,"endTime":1678.36,"body":"for who we are. And that's the most important thing."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1678.36,"endTime":1680.04,"body":"And you have to keep telling yourself that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1680.04,"endTime":1684.03,"body":"You have to keep telling yourself that almost treat yourself like you treat a friend who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1684.06,"endTime":1689.6399999999999,"body":"has slipped up themselves, that kind of kindness and compassion is so, so important."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1689.6399999999999,"endTime":1694.23,"body":"And if you can do that, if you can get into the habit of doing that when things haven't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1694.23,"endTime":1697.86,"body":"gone quite so well, it's like taking a sledgehammer to your perfectionism because it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1697.86,"endTime":1699.6,"body":"really cuts out that inner critic."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1699.87,"endTime":1703.4099999999999,"body":"that is one of the reasons why perfection is so problematic for our mental health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1703.86,"endTime":1709.44,"body":"I in the introduction pose the question or at least raise the issue of I guess what is at"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1709.44,"endTime":1714.51,"body":"the center of this podcast that we aspire to live long and healthy lives."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1714.51,"endTime":1716.7,"body":"This isn't a podcast about living forever."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1716.7,"endTime":1721.3799999999999,"body":"This isn't really about - I don't really like the phrase of reversing aging or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1721.3799999999999,"endTime":1726.4199999999998,"body":"going backwards - it's a forward looking, chronological, aging podcast, but the goal is"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1726.4199999999998,"endTime":1728.4299999999998,"body":"to be as healthy as long as possible."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1728.4299999999998,"endTime":1732.12,"body":"Healthspan is the is the buzzword as opposed to lifespan."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1732.12,"endTime":1736.53,"body":"So you're healthy and physically and mentally able to do what you can for as long as"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1736.53,"endTime":1740.1,"body":"possible. Is that do you think you've made me think about it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1740.1,"endTime":1744.54,"body":"Is that a flawed idea, a flawed ambition?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1744.54,"endTime":1751.9199999999998,"body":"Should I settle for good enough, which might be 85 rather than 95?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1752.07,"endTime":1754.11,"body":"No, I don't think it's a flawed ambition at all."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1754.11,"endTime":1755.7,"body":"I think it's really important."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1755.73,"endTime":1759.09,"body":"Ambition, you know, longevity, health, happiness, joy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1759.09,"endTime":1762.8999999999999,"body":"These are all things that I think are really important for human beings."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1762.8999999999999,"endTime":1765.8999999999999,"body":"As long as, of course, it's within our capacity."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1765.8999999999999,"endTime":1769.26,"body":"That's to say it doesn't breach a threshold as comfortable."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1769.6799999999998,"endTime":1772.1399999999999,"body":"One of the beautiful things about human beings, we are all different."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1772.1399999999999,"endTime":1775.8899999999999,"body":"We all have different tendencies, characteristics, genes and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1776.1599999999999,"endTime":1780.81,"body":"And what is longevity for one person will be very different to another person."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1780.81,"endTime":1786.36,"body":"And I think one of the most important things to recognize is that the most important"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1786.36,"endTime":1792.99,"body":"thing in life is to experience as much joy, contentment, purpose, meaning as you possibly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1792.99,"endTime":1797.85,"body":"can. And if that and the byproduct of that, of course, is more happiness, less stress,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1797.85,"endTime":1801.1799999999998,"body":"and in theory anyway, more longevity."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1801.1799999999998,"endTime":1807.24,"body":"But, nevertheless, for me, what's most, you know, and what I try and write about in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1807.24,"endTime":1812.76,"body":"book is, is trying to find more and more times in our lives where we can experience joy"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1812.76,"endTime":1816.69,"body":"and whether that be in with our, in our communities, with our families."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1816.99,"endTime":1826.9199999999998,"body":"singing, dancing, playing music, whatever it is we enjoy cooking,taking our kids to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1826.9199999999998,"endTime":1833.1299999999999,"body":"the playground, going on a family vacation, going on a traveling to another country,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1833.1299999999999,"endTime":1837.47,"body":"whatever it might be that provides you with purpose and joy and meaning is really, really"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1837.47,"endTime":1841.85,"body":"important. And if you happen to also be able to do that, like like I can with my job,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1841.85,"endTime":1842.9299999999998,"body":"that's even better."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1843.11,"endTime":1850.73,"body":"That's where true, where true joy and happiness comes from."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1850.73,"endTime":1859.22,"body":"And the byproduct of that is a is, as I said, a less stressful, less exhausting, less,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1860.75,"endTime":1862.58,"body":"worrying life, I suppose."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1862.85,"endTime":1867.29,"body":"And ultimately more longevity."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1867.29,"endTime":1868.8999999999999,"body":"But I wouldn't say like that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1868.9099999999999,"endTime":1872.72,"body":"What you're, what you're advocating for here is, is problematic at all."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1872.99,"endTime":1878.1499999999999,"body":"As long as it's comfortable and within, you know, as I say, within, it doesn't breach"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1878.1499999999999,"endTime":1881.45,"body":"any, it doesn't drive us crazy trying to reach it, if that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1881.45,"endTime":1885.4099999999999,"body":"I think that's the point. And just to be clear, I don't think it's a flawed ambition as"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1885.4099999999999,"endTime":1889.61,"body":"well. And I think you've actually very nicely just encapsulated there all the different"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1889.61,"endTime":1892.6699999999998,"body":"elements that go into leading a good life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1892.6699999999998,"endTime":1898.77,"body":"And if the spin off from all of that is a long life as well, well, that is perhaps to the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1898.77,"endTime":1902.58,"body":"greater good. And it's interesting talking to people interviews for this podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1902.61,"endTime":1909.36,"body":"One of the reasons that people give for living a long life is to share their rare wisdom"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1909.36,"endTime":1913.1699999999998,"body":"and to share their longevity with their children, with their grandchildren."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1913.1699999999998,"endTime":1914.52,"body":"You mentioned children as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1914.52,"endTime":1915.8999999999999,"body":"And it's the family."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1915.8999999999999,"endTime":1917.46,"body":"It is the playtimes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1917.46,"endTime":1920.07,"body":"It's the holidays, it's the the big picture."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1920.07,"endTime":1925.9199999999998,"body":"And I think perhaps if there is an element of what we're talking about here, where I"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1925.9199999999998,"endTime":1929.79,"body":"would perhaps suggest that people could maybe pull back a little bit, and that is in the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1929.79,"endTime":1937.23,"body":"extreme diets, the extreme exercise that, you know, may not add much in terms of years to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1937.23,"endTime":1941.76,"body":"your life, but it could actually potentially add quite a lot of stress along the way."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1941.76,"endTime":1948.0,"body":"So I like to use the phrase moderation in everything is probably the best thing that we"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1948.0,"endTime":1948.6299999999999,"body":"can do."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1948.6299999999999,"endTime":1950.07,"body":"Oh, it's so important Peter."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1950.9299999999998,"endTime":1955.86,"body":"Like you see this all the time right now because as as I mentioned at the beginning, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1955.86,"endTime":1959.97,"body":"elevate and amplify and platform those extreme cases."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1959.97,"endTime":1965.37,"body":"So people that have managed to, you know, find the secret to elongated life that comes"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1965.37,"endTime":1971.28,"body":"from these kind of weird and wacky, practices that just when you look at them and you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1971.28,"endTime":1974.9099999999999,"body":"actually think, goodness me, I'm going to have to do all these things just to eke out a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1974.9099999999999,"endTime":1976.59,"body":"few extra years, I'm not sure."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1977.22,"endTime":1978.81,"body":"I'm not sure that's going to make me happy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1978.81,"endTime":1981.27,"body":"It might make me live longer, but it's certainly not going to make me happy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1981.27,"endTime":1985.02,"body":"So but again, you're absolutely right when you talk about moderation, too, and this is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1985.02,"endTime":1990.12,"body":"something we need to learn in modern society, perfectionism is really just an extreme way"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1990.12,"endTime":1994.77,"body":"to strive, just like pursuing, as I mentioned in the very last chapter of the book, just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1994.77,"endTime":1998.28,"body":"like pursuing growth, growth, growth at all costs and pushing ourselves to the nth"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":1998.28,"endTime":2004.7,"body":"degree, pushing down at all times on the accelerator is again, a very extreme way to try"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2004.7,"endTime":2006.05,"body":"to drive an economy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2006.23,"endTime":2011.03,"body":"That's not to say that economies don't won't grow, but if we try to get as much growth as"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2011.03,"endTime":2014.06,"body":"we possibly can in the shortest possible time, there's going to be there's going to be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2014.06,"endTime":2017.45,"body":"implications for our health and happiness as a population."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2017.45,"endTime":2021.6499999999999,"body":"And sometimes our economy gets to a point where there isn't much more growth that can"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2021.6499999999999,"endTime":2023.24,"body":"come from that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2023.24,"endTime":2029.24,"body":"Secularly, we slow down and if we continue to try and push forward and we're going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2029.48,"endTime":2035.21,"body":"squeeze people relentlessly for more work, more consumption, for not much more increase"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2035.21,"endTime":2038.4199999999998,"body":"in their living standards. And in fact, we're starting to see living standards decline"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2038.4199999999998,"endTime":2044.81,"body":"now for most for the middle classes whilst still trying to pursue this kind of growth at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2044.81,"endTime":2046.1299999999999,"body":"all costs approach."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2046.1299999999999,"endTime":2049.16,"body":"And I think so moderation, yes, on an individual level."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2049.16,"endTime":2054.65,"body":"But I also think as a society too, we need to have a discussion about moderation and what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2054.68,"endTime":2059.21,"body":"a thriving economy, what a thriving country looks like."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2059.7200000000003,"endTime":2063.65,"body":"So I know I've taken that off in a very different direction, but I just wanted to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2063.65,"endTime":2066.83,"body":"reinforce that idea of moderation because I think it's so, so important."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2067.07,"endTime":2072.26,"body":"You mentioned middle classes there, and there are quite a few references in your book to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2072.26,"endTime":2076.43,"body":"different attitudes from the class structure of our societies."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2076.43,"endTime":2082.85,"body":"And like you, I consider myself to be from a working class, a working class family in the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2082.85,"endTime":2084.59,"body":"north east of England."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2084.62,"endTime":2090.38,"body":"I have put my toe into lots of different classes of society around the world."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2090.38,"endTime":2092.06,"body":"Some I like, some I don't like."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2092.06,"endTime":2097.67,"body":"But from your perspective and diving into this subject, what differences do you see if"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2097.67,"endTime":2102.29,"body":"you're looking at the class structures in societies and maybe in different countries as"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2102.29,"endTime":2108.02,"body":"well, what differences do you see in attitudes both positive and negative?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2108.0499999999997,"endTime":2111.17,"body":"It depends. It depends what you mean by attitude, attitudes to what?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2111.5,"endTime":2119.12,"body":"Attitudes that affect our perfectionism, attitudes that fuel our ambitions to achieve"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2119.12,"endTime":2124.58,"body":"things or not necessarily to achieve things and to be to be happy with good enough."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2124.58,"endTime":2126.2599999999998,"body":"Yeah. Really Good. That's okay. Really good question."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2126.2599999999998,"endTime":2131.6,"body":"So there's two - for me from my vantage point and we've got no data to support this, by"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2131.6,"endTime":2135.11,"body":"the way. But I just talk about my lived experience because I think it's so, so, so"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2135.11,"endTime":2138.64,"body":"important. Two reasons. One, because I think it's important readers know whether where"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2138.64,"endTime":2139.84,"body":"the author comes from."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2139.84,"endTime":2141.67,"body":"We work in the social sciences."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2141.67,"endTime":2145.36,"body":"And what I'm saying comes from a very particular perspective, and I want you to know"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2145.36,"endTime":2148.42,"body":"that. But it's not just that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2148.42,"endTime":2154.06,"body":"It's also because perfectionism can impact on people in different ways depending on their"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2154.06,"endTime":2155.92,"body":"social circumstances and environments."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2155.92,"endTime":2159.1,"body":"And those environments are very different from different people, from different"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2159.1,"endTime":2166.06,"body":"backgrounds or different classes in, in where I grew up, very, very poor in working class"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2166.06,"endTime":2172.09,"body":"community. One of the things that we use to mark our status was with material goods,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2172.09,"endTime":2177.34,"body":"things like trainers and gadgets and toys and clothes and brands."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2177.34,"endTime":2180.25,"body":"And as we grew up, cars and these are stupid things, right?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2180.25,"endTime":2181.57,"body":"They're just things. They're just stuff."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2181.57,"endTime":2186.46,"body":"But if you don't have them, that can have a massive impact on the way that you feel about"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2186.46,"endTime":2191.17,"body":"yourself. It's quite embarrassing to not be able to afford Nike trainers when everyone"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2191.17,"endTime":2196.09,"body":"else has them or not be able to be bought a car by your parents when everyone else has"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2200.9,"body":"bought them. These are very these are things that teach you very early on that there's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2200.9,"endTime":2205.64,"body":"something wrong. You know, consumer culture teaches us that life is all about stuff and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2205.64,"endTime":2207.98,"body":"money. And if you don't have it, there's something wrong with you."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2207.98,"endTime":2213.14,"body":"And you really feel that as a young kid, you know, you don't have the privilege of time"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2213.14,"endTime":2217.13,"body":"and education and reflection to realize that not that's not real."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2217.16,"endTime":2219.41,"body":"You actually feel very intently self-conscious."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2219.41,"endTime":2223.1,"body":"And those feelings of lack and deficit, I think are very much instilled in me from a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2223.1,"endTime":2227.84,"body":"young age because of not having the stuff that other people had, particularly in a, you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2227.84,"endTime":2230.12,"body":"know, in a consumer culture, in a material sense."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2230.36,"endTime":2235.37,"body":"Now the middle class and upper classes have a slightly different but no less weighty"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2237.38,"endTime":2244.67,"body":"pressures that come from excessive needs to excel and achieve in, in measures that's just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2244.67,"endTime":2246.41,"body":"completely unrealistic."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2246.98,"endTime":2252.29,"body":"And I see this now as a professor in a university that takes almost exclusively kids from"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2252.29,"endTime":2253.58,"body":"those sorts of backgrounds."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2253.82,"endTime":2258.74,"body":"And it's so, you know what I've witnessed from this outpost really is shocking in terms"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2258.74,"endTime":2263.66,"body":"of the amount of pressure and tension that young people are under to achieve and excel"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2263.66,"endTime":2268.34,"body":"Like, you know, they come to university bound with tension and worries about not being"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2268.34,"endTime":2274.64,"body":"good enough, not achieving in equal measure and even even objectively high grades for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2274.64,"endTime":2278.66,"body":"them are decidedly disappointing because they put themselves and hold themselves to such"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2278.66,"endTime":2283.2799999999997,"body":"a high standard. And some of them can't even open their grade books here for fear that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2283.2799999999997,"endTime":2285.86,"body":"the grade is going to ruin their chances of a perfect future."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2285.86,"endTime":2289.07,"body":"And that's you know, that sounds extreme, but it's not."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2289.46,"endTime":2294.32,"body":"You know, I'm seeing this increasingly in my students that they're just petrified to to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2294.32,"endTime":2298.91,"body":"find out what they scored because one bad grade and they know how they know how"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2298.91,"endTime":2299.99,"body":"disastrous that could be."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2300.11,"endTime":2304.0099999999998,"body":"And the way that they're going to feel about that in terms of their guilt and shame and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2304.0099999999998,"endTime":2305.21,"body":"embarrassment and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2305.21,"endTime":2311.2599999999998,"body":"So I mentioned class because I think class does have an impact and it means that our"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2311.27,"endTime":2315.59,"body":"perfectionism expresses slightly differently, but the pressures are and nevertheless,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2315.59,"endTime":2319.22,"body":"underneath them are the same the feeling of not being good enough, the feeling not having"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2319.22,"endTime":2325.1,"body":"enough and not being enough of not, um, not performing or achieving or having or doing or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2325.1,"endTime":2328.2799999999997,"body":"being somebody that's quite up to a standard."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2328.58,"endTime":2333.41,"body":"Um, and so, yes, you know, there are, there are certain pressures that may be slightly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2333.41,"endTime":2334.46,"body":"different between the classes."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2334.46,"endTime":2339.59,"body":"But nevertheless the, the constant need and imperative to do more is certainly felt"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2339.59,"endTime":2340.64,"body":"across the beast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2341.39,"endTime":2345.02,"body":"This is quite a personal book in many respects."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2345.2,"endTime":2350.06,"body":"You've acknowledged your perfectionism and you talk about your own personal experiences."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2350.06,"endTime":2352.49,"body":"You talk about relationships that you've had."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2352.61,"endTime":2357.86,"body":"I'm just curious, how easy or difficult was that for someone of your personality?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2357.89,"endTime":2359.7799999999997,"body":"You describe yourself as an introvert."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2359.7799999999997,"endTime":2362.36,"body":"I think I would probably describe myself as an introvert."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2362.39,"endTime":2366.08,"body":"We're both doing very public things in our profession."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2366.08,"endTime":2372.89,"body":"But for the private you, was it easy, difficult to put these thoughts onto paper?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2372.98,"endTime":2377.5099999999998,"body":"No, it wasn't easy, but I think it was nevertheless essential."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2377.7999999999997,"endTime":2384.52,"body":"The thing when I'm when I read a lot of these books written by scientists and people who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2384.52,"endTime":2388.81,"body":"work in academic settings, they're really informative, but sometimes they can be a little"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2388.81,"endTime":2392.95,"body":"lacking in personal experience and story."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2393.49,"endTime":2398.11,"body":"Being able to connect the themes with what's actually happening in people's lives."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2398.11,"endTime":2402.19,"body":"And that disconnect makes it really difficult to understand what's happening when it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2402.19,"endTime":2405.91,"body":"comes to the effects of perfectionism on our psychology."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2405.91,"endTime":2410.29,"body":"And so the person that I know best is myself."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2410.65,"endTime":2415.09,"body":"And one of the things that's so damaging about perfectionism is that it interacts with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2415.09,"endTime":2419.98,"body":"life stress in ways that can amplify that stress and create all sorts of psychological"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2419.98,"endTime":2422.38,"body":"problems and sometimes quite serious psychological problems."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2422.38,"endTime":2424.54,"body":"And that's exactly what happened to me in the literature."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2424.54,"endTime":2429.34,"body":"We call this a stress diathesis model of perfectionism, where perfectionism interacts"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2429.34,"endTime":2430.81,"body":"with life stress to amplify it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2430.84,"endTime":2434.83,"body":"Now, of course, if I talk about that in the book, it's quite dry like, you know, and it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2434.83,"endTime":2435.96,"body":"could go that approach."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2435.96,"endTime":2439.65,"body":"But I think most people aren't necessarily going to come with me for the journey."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2439.65,"endTime":2444.7799999999997,"body":"So what I decided to do is a difficult decision, but was to explain this theory through"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2444.7799999999997,"endTime":2448.08,"body":"the, you know, how it worked out in my own life."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2448.08,"endTime":2455.67,"body":"And I talk about a very difficult, experience, in early relationship, which really had a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2455.67,"endTime":2459.2999999999997,"body":"massive impact on my mental health."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2459.2999999999997,"endTime":2464.64,"body":"And, and I tried to explain in the book that it wasn't that particular experience per se"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2464.67,"endTime":2467.31,"body":"that created the difficulty, but actually the perfectionism."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2467.82,"endTime":2473.88,"body":"So the one of the things that we do when we perfectionist push ourselves to the limit,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2474.12,"endTime":2478.14,"body":"because that's a natural tendency to try to perfect and control everything and all around"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2478.14,"endTime":2482.16,"body":"them, which is fine. But when things go wrong, when stresses come into our lives that are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2482.16,"endTime":2487.02,"body":"out the blue completely out of our control, we didn't expect, then they can begin to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2487.02,"endTime":2491.88,"body":"snowball and cascade because what we've what's happened is some chink in the armor has"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2491.88,"endTime":2498.43,"body":"been exposed. We feel intensely self-conscious and to overcompensate for that, we work"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2498.43,"endTime":2502.63,"body":"even harder. We put in even we put in even stronger facade on."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2502.63,"endTime":2507.16,"body":"And we tried to continue to push through the stress and the pain when really we should be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2507.16,"endTime":2512.68,"body":"slowing down and over time, left unchecked, that imperative of the perfectionist to keep"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2512.68,"endTime":2517.0299999999997,"body":"pushing through, to use their perfectionism as a coping mechanism and think that when"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2517.0299999999997,"endTime":2521.59,"body":"everything is coming down around me, that perfection is the one thing holding me up well,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2521.59,"endTime":2525.19,"body":"that can, as I say, cascade into all sorts of negative psychological and mental health"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2525.19,"endTime":2527.47,"body":"problems, which is what exactly what happened to me."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2527.62,"endTime":2531.25,"body":"And it was only when I was brought to the realization that it was actually the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2531.25,"endTime":2533.5299999999997,"body":"perfectionism that was creating those problems."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2533.5299999999997,"endTime":2537.13,"body":"So far from helping me, it was actually creating the psychological problems that were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2537.13,"endTime":2540.0099999999998,"body":"pushing me into a really deep hole."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2540.37,"endTime":2543.7599999999998,"body":"So that's why I decided to bring those experiences to bear."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2543.93,"endTime":2549.46,"body":"And I said it wasn't, it wasn't easy, but I think, I hope anyway, it's helped people, um,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2550.2999999999997,"endTime":2556.27,"body":"bring, I suppose, bring to life the, the reasons why perfectionism can be so damaging to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2556.27,"endTime":2557.0499999999997,"body":"our mental health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2557.0499999999997,"endTime":2558.37,"body":"Yeah, I hope so too."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2558.37,"endTime":2561.61,"body":"And I think the way you do it is, is very effective."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2561.61,"endTime":2566.83,"body":"I'm just curious in closing and you write or you touch on this towards the end of the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2566.83,"endTime":2571.96,"body":"book, what the process of writing a book was like for a perfectionist."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2571.96,"endTime":2574.54,"body":"Writing a book is a daunting task for anyone."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2574.7799999999997,"endTime":2581.71,"body":"Meeting deadlines, writing the intros, changing the intro, deciding you don't like the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2581.71,"endTime":2585.85,"body":"way you've expressed yourself in a certain chapter and going back and doing it all again."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2586.15,"endTime":2588.7599999999998,"body":"How did that impact you?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2588.7599999999998,"endTime":2597.64,"body":"Yeah, I mean, the book was three years overdue, so my editor was, ready to throw in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2597.64,"endTime":2600.52,"body":"towel at many, many points along the process, I'm sure."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2600.52,"endTime":2605.2,"body":"And actually she gave me a very hard deadline and said, Well, if it's not in, by this"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2605.2,"endTime":2611.47,"body":"time we're taking the previous edit, so make your mind up and basically took it off me in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2611.5,"endTime":2612.79,"body":"that way, which is really good."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2612.79,"endTime":2618.16,"body":"But yeah, it's hard. Like, you know you want to do the best you possibly can."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2618.16,"endTime":2619.7799999999997,"body":"Do you want to make sure it's bulletproof."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2619.81,"endTime":2623.52,"body":"You don't want to have any gaping holes in there for people to pick at."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2623.5299999999997,"endTime":2625.5099999999998,"body":"And all of those things, by the way, are in the book."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2625.5099999999998,"endTime":2627.25,"body":"I mean, it's an imperfect book."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2628.6,"endTime":2633.4,"body":"Um, as The Wall Street Journal described it, it's a \"strange and imperfect book.\" I think"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2633.4,"endTime":2638.68,"body":"what the author meant by that was they didn't expect it to be the book that they they it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2638.68,"endTime":2640.36,"body":"wasn't the book they thought it was going to be."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2640.72,"endTime":2645.07,"body":"And and actually, interestingly, not in a bad way, but in just a different way to what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2645.07,"endTime":2649.99,"body":"what before and that's, you know, that's kind of I kind of knew that going into the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2649.99,"endTime":2652.96,"body":"writing. And one of the reasons maybe I was so nervous to send it off was because I was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2653.14,"endTime":2655.6,"body":"aware that this was kind of going to be sort of the reception."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2655.6,"endTime":2657.97,"body":"So yeah, like it was tough."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2657.97,"endTime":2659.68,"body":"It was really, it was really tough."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2659.7999999999997,"endTime":2665.0499999999997,"body":"But, you know, actually the aftermath has really helped me more than the writing process"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2665.0499999999997,"endTime":2671.23,"body":"itself because exactly as you expect in an information age, pretty much that first review"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2671.23,"endTime":2674.75,"body":"is posted within hours of the publication release."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2674.75,"endTime":2680.43,"body":"And then they just keep coming, you know, and every day there's more comments, more"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2680.43,"endTime":2681.93,"body":"feedback, more emails."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2682.32,"endTime":2687.36,"body":"You know, I try not to look at the ratings sites, but nevertheless, you know, you can't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2687.36,"endTime":2689.43,"body":"help but cast an eye every now and again."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2689.43,"endTime":2692.31,"body":"And there's another review that's great."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2692.31,"endTime":2694.44,"body":"And then there's another review that's not so great."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2694.44,"endTime":2699.72,"body":"And actually, all of this, all of this feedback on your work is really has really"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2699.72,"endTime":2703.5299999999997,"body":"actually helped me with my perfectionism because at some point you can get really bound"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2703.5299999999997,"endTime":2708.0299999999997,"body":"up in it. But then I've just decided I've just got to let it go and you know, whatever"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2708.0299999999997,"endTime":2709.7999999999997,"body":"it's going to get raised, it's going to get rated."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2710.16,"endTime":2714.18,"body":"And however people review it are just going to review it in the ways that they see fit."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2714.18,"endTime":2715.35,"body":"And you can't change that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2715.35,"endTime":2716.7,"body":"You can't control that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2717.0,"endTime":2721.29,"body":"And actually there's something quite comforting about knowing that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2721.29,"endTime":2723.33,"body":"So it's actually the aftermath of the book."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2723.33,"endTime":2725.94,"body":"I think that's helped me a lot more with my perfectionism than writing it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2725.94,"endTime":2730.5299999999997,"body":"Writing it really kind of feeds the perfectionism, but letting some of it go into the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2730.5299999999997,"endTime":2734.97,"body":"world and just allowing it to happen is like taking a sledgehammer to it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2735.16,"endTime":2741.49,"body":"So, yeah, I would I would say that's by the way,that's permission right there to your"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2741.49,"endTime":2745.72,"body":"listeners to just let things go, get it out there, don't stop because actually it's not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2745.72,"endTime":2747.31,"body":"as catastrophic you think it's going to be."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2747.4,"endTime":2752.5,"body":"And that process is really liberating when you can just allow it to just be and exist."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2752.5,"endTime":2754.9,"body":"So yeah, that's the process of the book."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2754.91,"endTime":2758.92,"body":"Great, great advice and it's a fascinating subject."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2759.0099999999998,"endTime":2761.07,"body":"I really enjoyed it. So, Thom, good to talk to you again."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2761.08,"endTime":2762.52,"body":"I'm going to keep following your work."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2762.52,"endTime":2763.42,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Thomas Curran","startTime":2763.42,"endTime":2765.0099999999998,"body":"Thank you Peter for having me on."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2771.1,"endTime":2773.98,"body":"The LLAMA podcast is Healthspan Media production."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2773.98,"endTime":2776.86,"body":"We'll be back with another conversation very soon."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2776.89,"endTime":2779.29,"body":"In the meantime, thanks so much for listening."}]}