{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":0.11,"endTime":5.39,"body":"Just meeting strangers, like forming new connections always felt like an incredibly big"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":5.39,"endTime":9.56,"body":"challenge. And then when I, as a science writer, when I came across all this research"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":9.56,"endTime":14.57,"body":"showing just how important our connections are for living a long and healthy life, I kind"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":14.57,"endTime":16.91,"body":"of wanted to know, well, how can I change that?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":16.91,"endTime":22.07,"body":"What could I do to become personally more socially confident and to kind of strengthen my"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":22.07,"endTime":24.68,"body":"relationships with the people around me?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":24.68,"endTime":27.5,"body":"And, you know, can I teach that to other people, too?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":27.5,"endTime":30.59,"body":"And so that was the inception of the laws of connection."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":32.79,"endTime":37.35,"body":"David Robson is a science journalist and the author of The Laws of Connection The"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":37.35,"endTime":41.13,"body":"Scientific Secrets of Building a Strong Social Network."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":41.13,"endTime":45.75,"body":"And we're not talking about the digital social networks that, for better or worse, we"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":45.75,"endTime":48.09,"body":"have become accustomed to these days."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":48.09,"endTime":52.53,"body":"These are real life connections with real people, the kind of connections that are"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":52.53,"endTime":55.38,"body":"crucially important as we grow older."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":55.38,"endTime":60.99,"body":"Being with other people, it's an aspect of our lives that increasingly is believed to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":60.99,"endTime":63.84,"body":"play a key role in healthy aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":63.84,"endTime":67.17,"body":"But some of us are better at it than others."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":67.17,"endTime":71.79,"body":"Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast, I'm Peter Bowes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":71.79,"endTime":76.77,"body":"This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":76.77,"endTime":78.06,"body":"David, it's good to talk to you."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":78.06,"endTime":80.22,"body":"Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on the show."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":80.22,"endTime":85.56,"body":"And David, is that a fair assessment that connections, social connections, we are"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":85.56,"endTime":90.84,"body":"understanding that they are crucially important in the aging process almost, you could"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":90.84,"endTime":96.33,"body":"say, as important as our diet, as our exercise regimes, how well we sleep, our"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":96.33,"endTime":100.74,"body":"interaction with other people really has a bearing on how we age."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":100.92,"endTime":102.18,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":102.18,"endTime":107.49,"body":"I mean, that's what I find so fascinating by, about this research is, you know, there"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":107.49,"endTime":113.28,"body":"have been, uh, you know, hundreds of these studies that have, uh, you know, most of them"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":113.28,"endTime":119.13,"body":"are longitudinal studies, tracking people's, aging, you know, how susceptible they are to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":119.13,"endTime":125.52,"body":"certain illnesses, things like Alzheimer's disease, cardiovascular disease, stroke, heart"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":125.52,"endTime":128.49,"body":"attack, diabetes, even the common cold."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":128.49,"endTime":129.75,"body":"You know, all of these things."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":129.75,"endTime":135.06,"body":"And what you find is that people who are more socially connected, so they feel they have"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":135.06,"endTime":139.89,"body":"that kind of understanding and support from the people around them, and they just fare"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":139.89,"endTime":143.04,"body":"much better. They're less likely to die of all causes."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":143.04,"endTime":147.9,"body":"And then you look at these individual illnesses that we might associate with aging and,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":148.68,"endTime":151.41,"body":"they're just less likely to develop them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":151.74,"endTime":156.57,"body":"now, when you compare the effects of social connection to the effects of other lifestyle"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":156.57,"endTime":162.84,"body":"factors, things like obesity, whether you drink or smoke, how much exercise you do, what"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":162.84,"endTime":166.23,"body":"you find is that social connection is right up there with all of them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":166.23,"endTime":170.76,"body":"You know, it's as important as some of the, you know, most essential things for good"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":170.76,"endTime":171.3,"body":"health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":171.3,"endTime":176.61,"body":"And maybe it's worthwhile just defining what you understand by social connections."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":176.61,"endTime":181.98,"body":"Certainly the phrase social networks, as I just implied, has been somewhat hijacked by"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":181.98,"endTime":185.07,"body":"the the digital world, the Facebooks of this world."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":185.07,"endTime":190.29,"body":"But as you talk about it in your new book, how would you describe what social connections"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":190.29,"endTime":191.04,"body":"really are?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":191.34,"endTime":197.52,"body":"Well, yeah. So I mean, in these kinds of studies, the epidemiological studies, you can"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":197.52,"endTime":202.41,"body":"look at connection from all different angles, using all different kinds of measures."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":202.41,"endTime":205.53,"body":"You can look at the sheer number of connections people have."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":205.53,"endTime":210.27,"body":"You can look at the quality of those connections that whether people feel supported or,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":210.69,"endTime":214.47,"body":"or not supported by the people around them, whether they you feel that you've got a kind"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":214.47,"endTime":219.12,"body":"of mutual understanding, whether you feel isolated, you know, whatever way you look at"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":219.12,"endTime":221.88,"body":"social connection, it's important for our health."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":221.88,"endTime":225.87,"body":"And that's one of the reasons why this research is so robust."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":226.2,"endTime":232.95,"body":"now, I do think, like, it's really important to kind of to recognize that, like, it's,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":232.95,"endTime":237.87,"body":"you know, it's simply isn't like whether you're surrounded by people or not."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":238.29,"endTime":243.03,"body":"because I think we all know, of those famous cases of, like, celebrities who, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":243.03,"endTime":248.13,"body":"might have, like, millions of fans on social media, you know, adoring fans all around"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":248.13,"endTime":253.47,"body":"them, you know, lots of members of staff, but they still feel very lonely."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":253.47,"endTime":257.97,"body":"Uh, they just don't have the psychological component of connection, even if they do have"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":257.97,"endTime":260.22,"body":"the physical presence of people."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":260.22,"endTime":265.83,"body":"And so this psychological component of connection is really that sense that, that you're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":265.83,"endTime":271.8,"body":"close to people who have the same kind of world view as you who are processing events in"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":271.8,"endTime":275.22,"body":"the same way. And we call that a shared reality."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":275.85,"endTime":281.97,"body":"you know, it's obvious to us when we do find a shared reality with someone, we start kind"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":281.97,"endTime":283.92,"body":"of finishing each other's sentences."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":283.92,"endTime":286.68,"body":"Uh, we might start saying the same things at the same time."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":287.01,"endTime":291.57,"body":"We might find that we laugh at the same joke or have the same emotional response to a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":291.57,"endTime":294.69,"body":"work of art or, a piece of music."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":294.69,"endTime":299.52,"body":"And what you find is that the more of those events that you have with someone like the,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":299.55,"endTime":305.01,"body":"you know, they might just be, very temporary events, but the more that they occur, with"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":305.01,"endTime":308.19,"body":"another person, the closer you feel to them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":308.19,"endTime":313.29,"body":"And so having a shared reality is the foundation of social connection."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":313.29,"endTime":317.19,"body":"And when we lack a shared reality with people, that's when we would have what I would"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":317.19,"endTime":319.98,"body":"call as existential isolation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":320.1,"endTime":323.25,"body":"That's fascinating. I want to dive into all of that with you, David."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":323.25,"endTime":325.05,"body":"But first of all, a little bit about you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":325.05,"endTime":327.21,"body":"And I should say that you and I have known each other for."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":327.21,"endTime":328.32,"body":"It's about a decade now."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":328.32,"endTime":331.35,"body":"We worked together at the BBC."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":331.44,"endTime":336.06,"body":"You have. Since focused your work on your writing, writing your books."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":336.06,"endTime":342.24,"body":"The expectation effect was, I think, your last book, which is all about mindset and how"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":342.24,"endTime":343.26,"body":"and it was fascinating."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":343.26,"endTime":349.05,"body":"Read about how certainly positive thinking can affect the way that we live our lives, how"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":349.05,"endTime":352.11,"body":"the placebo effect can affect us as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":352.11,"endTime":355.92,"body":"In other words, thinking we're going to achieve something without actually, I suppose,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":355.92,"endTime":359.46,"body":"doing something tangible to achieve it, but we still achieve it anyway."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":359.46,"endTime":364.71,"body":"Fascinating read. It also has implications for human longevity and the aging process."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":364.71,"endTime":367.95,"body":"So I think, let's hear a little bit about you yourself."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":367.95,"endTime":370.26,"body":"And maybe this is the key question from me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":370.29,"endTime":375.3,"body":"What is it that drives you to be interested in these subjects?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":375.42,"endTime":377.37,"body":"Does it come from personal experience?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":377.46,"endTime":378.39,"body":"What is it?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":378.39,"endTime":381.87,"body":"Yeah, I mean, uh, it is very personal."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":381.87,"endTime":386.28,"body":"Like each of my books has kind of been something that, you know, really mattered to me."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":386.28,"endTime":390.03,"body":"It was answering questions that I personally wanted to know the answers to, and I can't"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":390.03,"endTime":392.73,"body":"really imagine writing a book where I didn't feel like that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":393.27,"endTime":399.09,"body":"but yeah, I'm a science writer, you know, have been for the last 18 years now."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":399.09,"endTime":406.44,"body":"And so, you know, I do tend to view, I view kind of all questions in life through a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":406.44,"endTime":407.79,"body":"scientific lens."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":407.91,"endTime":412.5,"body":"Like I love kind of incorporating culture and philosophy into my writing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":412.5,"endTime":418.32,"body":"But, you know, I ultimately think that having, like, a good evidence base for, life's big"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":418.32,"endTime":420.45,"body":"questions is really important to me."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":420.45,"endTime":426.66,"body":"And so with the expectation effect, you know, I was just like, I knew that in the past"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":426.66,"endTime":431.61,"body":"I'd had this very pessimistic kind of mindset, like, I was famous for it, with my friends"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":431.61,"endTime":434.22,"body":"for, like, always seeing the worst and in things."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":434.22,"endTime":438.99,"body":"And so, you know, I was fascinated them to find all of this scientific research showing"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":438.99,"endTime":442.77,"body":"that actually, you know, that is creating bad outcomes."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":442.77,"endTime":448.5,"body":"And if you switch that mindset, so you have the kind of more, I would say still"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":448.5,"endTime":453.54,"body":"realistic, but just like, positive, uh, positive expectations of life."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":453.54,"endTime":457.8,"body":"So you're not fooling yourself, but you're just, trying to look a bit more objectively"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":457.8,"endTime":462.09,"body":"and recognizing that, you know, if things are probably not as bad as you assume they're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":462.09,"endTime":468.12,"body":"going to be. they're just that single mental shift in your expectations can have huge"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":468.33,"endTime":474.96,"body":"implications for everything from how you respond to surgery to how well you, respond to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":474.96,"endTime":477.84,"body":"exercise, to the way you digest food."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":477.84,"endTime":480.27,"body":"And, like you said, even to how you age."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":480.36,"endTime":485.43,"body":"So, yeah, that, you know, that was in itself, like transformative for me."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":485.43,"endTime":490.35,"body":"Like it basically did help me to get out of like a period of depression in my life."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":490.35,"endTime":494.07,"body":"And, you know, like just writing about this research is so good for you to, for me to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":494.07,"endTime":499.77,"body":"kind of process it and internalize it that, uh, that I found that, you know, gave me, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":499.77,"endTime":502.38,"body":"just so much more psychological resilience."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":502.38,"endTime":506.64,"body":"Uh, but then the laws of connection really comes from something that I'd carried through"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":506.64,"endTime":508.71,"body":"my life, from when I was a small child."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":508.71,"endTime":510.63,"body":"And that is this kind of shyness."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":510.63,"endTime":515.28,"body":"So even though I, you know, from when I was a teenager, had, like, very close friends,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":515.61,"endTime":520.95,"body":"just meeting strangers, like, forming new connections always felt like an incredibly big"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":520.95,"endTime":525.81,"body":"challenge. And then when I, as a science writer, when I came across all this research"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":525.81,"endTime":531.18,"body":"showing just how important our connections are, for living a long and healthy life, I"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":531.18,"endTime":533.67,"body":"kind of wanted to know, well, how can I change that?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":533.67,"endTime":539.1,"body":"Like, what could I do to become personally more, uh, socially confident and to kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":539.1,"endTime":542.4,"body":"strengthen my relationships with the people around me?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":542.4,"endTime":545.22,"body":"And, you know, can I teach that to other people, too?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":545.22,"endTime":548.34,"body":"And so that was the inception of the laws of connection."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":548.64,"endTime":553.62,"body":"Just going back to what you said about being the kind of person who perhaps always saw the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":553.62,"endTime":558.57,"body":"the dark side of things, or you could describe it as being a glass half full, or is it"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":558.57,"endTime":561.06,"body":"glass half empty glass, half empty kind of person?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":561.06,"endTime":562.38,"body":"The opposite is a glass half full."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":562.38,"endTime":566.16,"body":"Obviously, being of that mindset, is it possible to change?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":566.16,"endTime":570.63,"body":"I mean, you do the research, you delve into it, you try to find the reasons why's to and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":570.63,"endTime":574.11,"body":"in many respects to determine how you live your life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":574.11,"endTime":578.94,"body":"But I'm just wondering if there are some characteristics of life always potentially"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":578.94,"endTime":582.6,"body":"seeing the the negative side of something that we actually can't change."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":582.6,"endTime":585.45,"body":"And it's an intrinsic part of our personality."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":586.47,"endTime":591.54,"body":"Yeah. I mean, so some people are definitely more pessimistic than others."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":592.02,"endTime":594.24,"body":"but it is something that you can change."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":594.66,"endTime":598.89,"body":"and so that's what the book really was trying to like, delve into the kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":598.89,"endTime":604.32,"body":"psychological tools that we can use to, uh, prevent us from having that kind of overly"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":604.32,"endTime":605.52,"body":"negative mindset."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":605.52,"endTime":611.16,"body":"And, I mean, what I found especially encouraging is the fact that your overall pessimism"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":611.16,"endTime":617.52,"body":"isn't as important as maybe your expectations about each individual situation or context,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":617.52,"endTime":619.53,"body":"which makes it feel more manageable."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":619.53,"endTime":622.29,"body":"And you're trying to change your outlook on outlook on life."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":622.29,"endTime":626.79,"body":"It's like, you know, I would read the research about, say, how you view stressful"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":626.79,"endTime":631.71,"body":"situations. And then that immediately gave me practical strategies that I could use to."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":631.81,"endTime":633.88,"body":"Changed my mindset about stress."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":634.42,"endTime":640.42,"body":"so just to give a bit of context to that, the effects of stress are often a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":640.42,"endTime":643.45,"body":"self-fulfilling prophecy that what we kind of believe them to be."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":643.45,"endTime":648.55,"body":"So people who see stress as being debilitating and bad for their health tend to have"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":648.55,"endTime":653.47,"body":"worse outcomes than people who see stress as energizing and something that can actually"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":653.47,"endTime":655.06,"body":"enhance your growth."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":655.63,"endTime":661.21,"body":"now the interventions can be very simple, like actually just teaching undergraduate"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":661.21,"endTime":665.68,"body":"students about the role of mindset and letting them know that actually the stress"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":665.68,"endTime":668.53,"body":"response revolt evolved for a very good reason."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":668.53,"endTime":673.18,"body":"Like it's, you know, beneficially adaptive, you know, the changes that you feel, that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":673.18,"endTime":675.22,"body":"discomfort of your heart racing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":675.22,"endTime":679.39,"body":"Well, you know, it might not be pleasant, but it's actually pumping a lot of oxygen to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":679.39,"endTime":683.74,"body":"your brain. Cortisol leaves you feeling kind of a bit wired and on edge, but actually"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":683.77,"endTime":686.26,"body":"it's thus helping you to respond more quickly to events."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":686.26,"endTime":691.15,"body":"So if you're kind of public speaking on stage, it's better for you to have moderate"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":691.15,"endTime":695.74,"body":"levels of cortisol than like none at all, because it's helping you to focus on what's"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":695.74,"endTime":698.59,"body":"really important and the challenge that you're facing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":698.77,"endTime":703.99,"body":"Now, what the research has shown is that simply recognizing and reminding yourself of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":703.99,"endTime":709.21,"body":"those benefits can actually shift your stress mindset, and then that in turn, helps your"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":709.21,"endTime":714.67,"body":"body to cope better with this stressful situation that you're facing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":715.36,"endTime":721.15,"body":"and that just being of a kind of analytical, uh, temperament, I think just, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":721.15,"endTime":724.99,"body":"realizing that actually I didn't have to, like, repeat some kind of mantra to myself."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":724.99,"endTime":729.28,"body":"It's not like I was having to fool myself into believing things that were weren't true."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":729.28,"endTime":735.46,"body":"Like, I could still recognize that the stress was, when I was public speaking, say, was"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":735.46,"endTime":738.91,"body":"uncomfortable. But I could also just learn to think, well, like, fine."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":738.91,"endTime":744.37,"body":"His discomfort, but is a bit like the grit in an oyster is actually necessary and there"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":744.37,"endTime":745.42,"body":"for a good reason."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":745.42,"endTime":747.64,"body":"And so that that's just one example."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":747.64,"endTime":753.19,"body":"But that's the kind of mindset shift that I'm kind of, uh, advocating, really."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":753.19,"endTime":758.38,"body":"And I think it can be that's much easier, I think, than say, going through life with like"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":758.38,"endTime":761.08,"body":"a vague intention to just be more positive."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":761.53,"endTime":764.5,"body":"Public speaking is a fascinating example, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":764.65,"endTime":769.51,"body":"Especially if you go through your life and I'm using myself as an example here, someone"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":769.51,"endTime":773.02,"body":"who does a very public job talking into cameras and microphones."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":773.02,"endTime":777.1,"body":"But as soon as you have to do that where you can see the audience, I think that is the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":777.1,"endTime":781.84,"body":"the crucial factor that strikes fear into a lot of people, that you might be delivering"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":781.84,"endTime":786.16,"body":"whatever subject or speech that you're well used to delivering."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":786.16,"endTime":790.66,"body":"But the fact is, you've got that real time reaction you can see into people's eyes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":790.66,"endTime":795.43,"body":"And again, that goes to the heart of, I suppose, the social connection, part of things,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":795.43,"endTime":800.62,"body":"that the equilibrium changes when you're in the same room as, as other people."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":800.62,"endTime":801.76,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":801.76,"endTime":807.91,"body":"And so to give one example of why I think the shift in mindset that kind of we call it"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":807.91,"endTime":813.67,"body":"cognitive reappraisal works in that situation is because if you're kind of standing on"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":813.67,"endTime":818.47,"body":"stage and you're suddenly imagining all the worst case scenarios, I mean, it's like the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":818.47,"endTime":822.7,"body":"very worst thing would be that you faint or you like, uh, piss yourself on stage."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":822.7,"endTime":824.14,"body":"that would be bad."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":824.14,"endTime":829.42,"body":"Yeah. If that's running through your head, then then that's like adding just like another"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":829.42,"endTime":831.73,"body":"layer of stress to you."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":831.73,"endTime":835.0,"body":"And the more stressed you feel, the more you start panicking and thinking, well, oh my"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":835.0,"endTime":837.31,"body":"God, this is like closer to happening now."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":837.34,"endTime":843.07,"body":"Whereas if you see your stress as a potentially good resource and you recognize but you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":843.07,"endTime":847.45,"body":"know, despite the discomfort that is actually just helping you to perform better, it just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":847.45,"endTime":849.61,"body":"removes that extra layer of stress."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":849.61,"endTime":853.39,"body":"It stops you going in that kind of spiral of negative thinking."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":853.39,"endTime":859.9,"body":"And that's all you need sometimes, is just to stop the, the downward spiral, to enact the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":859.9,"endTime":864.82,"body":"change. And then I found that, like, actually, uh, you know, it's always the case with"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":864.82,"endTime":868.51,"body":"these things that the kind of the more you practice it, the better you become at it."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":868.51,"endTime":871.33,"body":"So you can kind of build on your previous successes."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":871.33,"endTime":876.34,"body":"Like once I'd found that that was helpful on my first talk, then the second talk became a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":876.34,"endTime":877.57,"body":"little bit easier."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":877.57,"endTime":881.71,"body":"I had more positive feedback from that, and so is the trajectory that I was really"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":881.71,"endTime":882.79,"body":"focusing on that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":883.21,"endTime":888.49,"body":"So in the laws of connection, you start initially by writing about something called the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":888.49,"endTime":892.45,"body":"liking gap, which as a phrase I hadn't heard before."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":892.45,"endTime":897.67,"body":"But as soon as you dive into it, there's a sort of aha moment in your mind that it makes"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":897.67,"endTime":899.02,"body":"total sense."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":899.02,"endTime":904.69,"body":"So why did you start with that and explain what it is, and what is the significance of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":904.69,"endTime":908.86,"body":"this phenomenon that clearly affects so many of us as we're interacting with other"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":908.86,"endTime":909.61,"body":"people?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":910.12,"endTime":916.21,"body":"Well, so, in simple terms, the liking gap is a phenomenon where you, you meet someone,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":916.21,"endTime":920.44,"body":"you, you have a good conversation, you really enjoy their company, but you go away from"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":920.44,"endTime":925.81,"body":"that conversation feeling that you liked the other person more than the other person"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":925.81,"endTime":930.91,"body":"liked you. Now, I think we've all experienced that, but we assume that we're kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":930.91,"endTime":936.97,"body":"unique. That actually there is something unlikable about ourselves, maybe."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":936.97,"endTime":940.24,"body":"Or we just focus on the kind of clumsy things that we might have said."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":940.24,"endTime":945.22,"body":"And we we don't realize that actually the majority of people are experiencing this."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":945.22,"endTime":950.95,"body":"So statistically, you know, you think that the other person doesn't like you as much as"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":950.95,"endTime":955.45,"body":"you like them. The other person is probably thinking exactly the same thing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":955.45,"endTime":961.84,"body":"That's what the study shows that we're, you know, we're most likely to be underestimating"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":961.84,"endTime":965.05,"body":"how likable we were with the other person."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":965.53,"endTime":970.15,"body":"So understanding that for me personally, was very important for overcoming my social"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":970.15,"endTime":973.9,"body":"anxieties, because, you know, so many of the times I would kind of leave conversations"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":973.9,"endTime":978.97,"body":"and I would, you know, I'd always be playing out like, in my mind, like all of the things"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":978.97,"endTime":982.78,"body":"that I said that I wish I'd kind of phrased slightly differently, like, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":982.78,"endTime":987.16,"body":"just a slight awkward silence that there was and you kind of put the blame on yourself."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":987.28,"endTime":992.92,"body":"but reading about the liking gap, I realized, you know, that's not that's not unusual."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":992.92,"endTime":994.03,"body":"And it's probably not true."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":994.03,"endTime":998.92,"body":"Like those worries that we have are unfounded in the majority of the cases."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":999.13,"endTime":1001.53,"body":"and that just was incredibly liberating."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1001.53,"endTime":1006.09,"body":"It really helped me to realize that, you know, just I could be a bit braver in these"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1006.09,"endTime":1009.84,"body":"interactions. Like after meeting someone who I really liked, I could just reach out to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1009.84,"endTime":1012.69,"body":"them again and say, like, do you wanna meet up for coffee?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1012.69,"endTime":1016.65,"body":"Or, you know, in the woke workplace that you want to collaborate on this project?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1016.65,"endTime":1018.21,"body":"Like, I think you'd have good ideas."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1018.21,"endTime":1023.55,"body":"I think that's emblematic, really, of the laws of connection as a whole, uh, because it"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1023.55,"endTime":1029.31,"body":"shows how we have these psychological barriers which are kind of like these, uh, these"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1029.31,"endTime":1030.66,"body":"false intuitions."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1030.66,"endTime":1035.34,"body":"And by just removing those barriers, we can actually find that connection is just so much"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1035.34,"endTime":1036.51,"body":"more achievable."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1037.23,"endTime":1039.87,"body":"and, you know, it's a very empowering message for me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1039.87,"endTime":1043.65,"body":"And just to clarify, and actually, I think you just have by mentioning the workplace, but"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1043.65,"endTime":1048.75,"body":"when you're talking about liking the other person, this isn't necessarily a physical"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1048.75,"endTime":1051.03,"body":"attraction type scenario."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1051.03,"endTime":1055.47,"body":"This is a liking situation that could apply to the workplace."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1055.47,"endTime":1057.63,"body":"It could be a professional engagement."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1057.63,"endTime":1059.7,"body":"It could be two people meeting for an interview."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1059.7,"endTime":1062.88,"body":"It could be two people meeting, meeting in a shop or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1062.88,"endTime":1070.11,"body":"It's two human beings connecting and liking or appreciating or respecting each other."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1070.11,"endTime":1071.4,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1071.4,"endTime":1075.27,"body":"And so the questions that are often used in these questionnaires, you know, it's not"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1075.27,"endTime":1080.25,"body":"about physical attraction, but it is about like like literally like rate how much you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1080.25,"endTime":1084.9,"body":"like the other person rate how much you'd like to spend more time with the other person"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1084.9,"endTime":1088.83,"body":"rate how likely you think it is that you'll become friends with the other person."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1088.83,"endTime":1094.95,"body":"And you know, when you combine those measures, what you find is that people, give pretty"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1094.95,"endTime":1098.55,"body":"high scores themselves for the person they've just spoken to, but they think the other"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1098.55,"endTime":1102.81,"body":"person is going to, give them personally lower scores."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1102.81,"endTime":1107.34,"body":"So they're just underestimating how much the other person would want to spend time with"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1107.34,"endTime":1109.26,"body":"them and would want to be friends with them."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1109.8,"endTime":1116.34,"body":"And so a big part of overcoming the liking gap is, is simply understanding what it is."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1116.55,"endTime":1121.59,"body":"Yeah, I think awareness is crucial once you realize that and that it's a kind of common"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1121.59,"endTime":1127.8,"body":"experience. you can also use these other psychological strategies to try to, uh, just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1127.8,"endTime":1131.19,"body":"kind of remind yourself in the heat of the moment that maybe things aren't as bad as you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1131.19,"endTime":1136.08,"body":"thought they were. one of them is a technique that's called defocusing."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1136.08,"endTime":1141.57,"body":"And essentially, you know, I described earlier how we often, like, get really hung up on,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1141.57,"endTime":1145.65,"body":"like, just one tiny little event in a conversation, you know, like where we used the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1145.65,"endTime":1148.53,"body":"wrong word and we feel a bit stupid for having done so."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1149.13,"endTime":1154.53,"body":"The problem is that it's called, the kind of focusing bias because we're just like, we're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1154.53,"endTime":1159.03,"body":"ignoring all of the other kind of things that are going to affect how much rapport you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1159.03,"endTime":1162.51,"body":"have with someone and their impressions of you, some of which are completely out of your"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1162.51,"endTime":1167.31,"body":"control. So you know, the person's underlying mood is important, how much sleep they had,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1167.31,"endTime":1168.96,"body":"also just their personality."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1168.96,"endTime":1172.95,"body":"Like they might just be, you know, a sociable person or a kind of more introverted"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1172.95,"endTime":1175.95,"body":"person, which could determine how they come across to you."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1175.95,"endTime":1180.66,"body":"And what Defocusing is asking people to do is to just consider like that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1180.66,"endTime":1182.79,"body":"All of these factors are important."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1182.79,"endTime":1187.44,"body":"It's not simply the words that you said, certainly not the precise like one word that you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1187.44,"endTime":1189.27,"body":"use that you think was a bit clumsy."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1189.27,"endTime":1192.6,"body":"There's going to influence the impression that they had of you."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1192.6,"endTime":1197.28,"body":"And when you teach people about this technique and just get them to broaden their"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1197.28,"endTime":1202.32,"body":"understanding of the social situation, what you find is that that does just help to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1202.32,"endTime":1204.81,"body":"relieve some of those anxieties."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1205.26,"endTime":1210.57,"body":"I think what's interesting is how we have, especially in the last 3 or 4 years, become"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1210.57,"endTime":1216.27,"body":"accustomed to not being in social situations and not having those conversations."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1216.27,"endTime":1219.24,"body":"And there's a little example, and I think I mentioned this to you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1219.33,"endTime":1220.77,"body":"You and I met a few weeks ago."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1220.77,"endTime":1224.28,"body":"We met face to face the first time for a long time in a cafe."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1224.28,"endTime":1230.31,"body":"And I told you the story of how I was just picking up a cup of coffee at a cafe local to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1230.31,"endTime":1233.14,"body":"me popped. Then order the coffee and was waiting for it."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1233.14,"endTime":1237.34,"body":"And someone, another guy was just waiting for his coffee and struck up a conversation,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1237.34,"endTime":1240.22,"body":"which actually doesn't happen a huge amount these days."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1240.22,"endTime":1244.24,"body":"But it struck up a conversation telling me about how he'd just been rear ended."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1244.24,"endTime":1247.63,"body":"Another vehicle had gone into the back of his, and he said he was kind of upset by it,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1247.63,"endTime":1250.21,"body":"not too upset. He said it was the second time it had happened this year."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1250.21,"endTime":1251.62,"body":"And I said, well, was it serious?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1251.62,"endTime":1252.76,"body":"No, it wasn't serious at all."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1252.76,"endTime":1255.91,"body":"It just happened. And, you know, it's kind of a bad start to the day."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1255.91,"endTime":1259.39,"body":"And we talked for about 90s and he was clearly okay."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1259.39,"endTime":1260.56,"body":"We talked for about 90s."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1260.56,"endTime":1262.66,"body":"My coffee arrived and and off I went."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1262.66,"endTime":1266.89,"body":"And as I was just about saying goodbye, all the best of things, he said thank you for the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1266.89,"endTime":1271.42,"body":"conversation, which really struck me and stayed with me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1271.42,"endTime":1276.64,"body":"And I thought about it as I was walking away that this person really did actually just"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1276.64,"endTime":1277.69,"body":"want to talk."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1277.96,"endTime":1283.81,"body":"And, you know, I think like the fact that he thanked you for that conversation, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1283.81,"endTime":1290.83,"body":"I think this is an important tool that we can use actually, because so the liking gap is"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1290.83,"endTime":1295.81,"body":"that it's important for me personally to realize that I might be liked more than I think,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1295.81,"endTime":1299.68,"body":"but we always have to remember what the other person is probably going through those kind"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1299.68,"endTime":1300.88,"body":"of doubts as well."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1300.88,"endTime":1305.62,"body":"And so just at the end of a conversation, just making it clear to people that we, you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1305.62,"endTime":1307.87,"body":"know, enjoyed what they were saying, we appreciated it."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1307.87,"endTime":1308.98,"body":"We admired them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1309.31,"endTime":1313.99,"body":"just making that explicit, I think, can reduce some of those doubts that they might be"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1313.99,"endTime":1318.46,"body":"experiencing. And I think that will then make it much more likely that they will contact"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1318.46,"endTime":1322.03,"body":"you in the future. You know, if it was the kind of situation where you had exchanged"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1322.03,"endTime":1325.12,"body":"numbers or, you know, you were in the same workplace."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1325.3,"endTime":1331.9,"body":"so just with very egocentric creatures, our thinking is always based on what we feel, and"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1331.9,"endTime":1334.75,"body":"we assume that our feelings are more transparent than they really are."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1334.75,"endTime":1338.53,"body":"So if we really enjoy talking to someone else, we assume that they're going to understand"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1338.53,"endTime":1341.47,"body":"that. But the liking gap research shows that's not the case."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1341.47,"endTime":1347.02,"body":"And so anything we can do to verbalize the good feelings that we're thinking, that we're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1347.02,"endTime":1352.21,"body":"experiencing, that can just be another good way of just enhancing the connection in that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1352.21,"endTime":1353.14,"body":"moment."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1353.44,"endTime":1358.54,"body":"And in terms of enhancing the connection or the the art of having a good conversation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1358.54,"endTime":1364.99,"body":"You write in your book about phubbing or phone snubbing, which again was a new expression"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1364.99,"endTime":1369.91,"body":"to me, but again, once it's explained, is is very clear that we pretty much all of us do"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1369.91,"endTime":1376.87,"body":"it at one point, and that is becoming distracted by our smartphone during a conversation."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1376.87,"endTime":1380.92,"body":"So, you know, when you look at the art of conversation, one of the most important things"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1380.92,"endTime":1384.85,"body":"you can do is to signal your attention to the other person."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1384.85,"endTime":1390.16,"body":"And if we go back to the idea of having a shared reality where you can only really create"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1390.16,"endTime":1395.56,"body":"a shared reality, this mutual understanding of the world, if you're listening to what the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1395.56,"endTime":1400.0,"body":"other person is saying and taking it on board and then responding appropriately, to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1400.0,"endTime":1402.19,"body":"validate them, to agree with them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1402.76,"endTime":1407.8,"body":"the problem is that smartphones can just be incredibly distracting, and we often don't"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1407.8,"endTime":1409.78,"body":"realize just how distracting they are."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1409.78,"endTime":1414.25,"body":"So in these studies where they've kind of observed people in coffee shops or kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1414.25,"endTime":1420.43,"body":"engineered experiments in laboratories where people start these conversations, they found"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1420.43,"endTime":1425.59,"body":"that just having a phone present is often enough of a distraction to reduce that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1425.59,"endTime":1429.34,"body":"attention that each person is paying to the other person."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1429.34,"endTime":1432.16,"body":"And so that is harming that shared reality."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1432.16,"endTime":1437.2,"body":"It's kind of making it more unstable and that, you know, that's bad for connection, that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1437.2,"endTime":1439.09,"body":"that's something that we want to avoid."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1439.27,"endTime":1445.0,"body":"so that's phubbing and as a general conversational habit is just a complete no, no, like"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1445.0,"endTime":1448.84,"body":"put your phone in your bag, turn it off, whatever, while you're having a conversation or"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1448.84,"endTime":1452.95,"body":"if you really need it to be on because you're expecting some important message, just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1452.95,"endTime":1455.23,"body":"explain to the other person what that is."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1455.23,"endTime":1459.28,"body":"Because at least once, they know that like your best friend is pregnant and might be"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1459.28,"endTime":1462.94,"body":"giving birth at any moment, at least then they can understand that it's nothing to do"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1462.94,"endTime":1464.35,"body":"with their conversation."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1464.35,"endTime":1469.24,"body":"It's not your lack of interest in them, but there's a very good reason for your behavior."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1497.1200000000001,"endTime":1500.99,"body":"You've just made me feel a little bit better, David, about when we met, because I had my"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1500.99,"endTime":1505.16,"body":"phone on the table because I was expecting to meet someone else immediately after you was"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1505.16,"endTime":1506.48,"body":"waiting for a text message."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1506.48,"endTime":1511.22,"body":"And I then read your book and read this particular chapter, and I thought, aha, yes,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1511.22,"endTime":1514.6100000000001,"body":"that's what was going on in that, that social situation there."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1514.6100000000001,"endTime":1519.56,"body":"But it is a dilemma, isn't it, for a lot of people, I guess, because we have become so"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1519.56,"endTime":1524.48,"body":"accustomed to the smartphone and everything that it gives us, whether it's indication"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1528.29,"body":"that the next person you're meeting is just around the corner, or a reminder that you"},{"speaker":"have to be home by 6","startTime":1528.29,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"00, whatever it is, or indeed a distraction that is more"},{"speaker":"have to be home by 6","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1535.4,"body":"interesting, which is a more sort of serious aspect of this."},{"speaker":"have to be home by 6","startTime":1535.4,"endTime":1540.53,"body":"But dragging yourself away from that now that we've become so accustomed is easier said"},{"speaker":"have to be home by 6","startTime":1540.53,"endTime":1541.67,"body":"than done, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1541.7,"endTime":1547.91,"body":"Yeah it is. And like, I know there's a lot of discourse now, this very negative about, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1547.91,"endTime":1553.16,"body":"smartphones and cell phones and blames them for all kinds of social ills, including"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1553.16,"endTime":1554.9,"body":"isolation and loneliness."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1554.9,"endTime":1558.08,"body":"And, you know, I think phubbing is one example of the ways that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1559.27,"endTime":1565.6,"body":"Uh, the cell phones are kind of damaging, social connection, but I don't think it's it's"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1565.6,"endTime":1566.95,"body":"not in the grand scheme of things."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1566.95,"endTime":1569.56,"body":"It's not like a really big problem."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1569.56,"endTime":1571.69,"body":"It's just something that we should avoid if we can."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1572.14,"endTime":1577.18,"body":"and there are obviously huge benefits to the technologies that we have."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1577.18,"endTime":1579.97,"body":"So, you know, we can be talking."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1580.27,"endTime":1585.07,"body":"We can be talking and, like, seeing each other's faces during this conversation."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1585.07,"endTime":1589.0,"body":"If it wasn't for all of the amazing technological developments that we've had over the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1589.0,"endTime":1592.93,"body":"last, uh, decades, and that's something that we should be thankful for."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1592.93,"endTime":1597.67,"body":"Actually, you know, video calls are improving social connection for many people."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1597.67,"endTime":1601.8700000000001,"body":"They're allowing us to have these, uh, these interactions that simply wouldn't have been"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1601.8700000000001,"endTime":1606.76,"body":"possible. And the same with cellphones, you know, less, just sending a message, like,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1606.76,"endTime":1609.43,"body":"even just a gift to, like, one of your closest friends."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1610.03,"endTime":1612.85,"body":"that in itself is like a moment that can be cherished."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1612.85,"endTime":1617.47,"body":"Like, we don't have to feel bad about that if that is stopping you from meeting them face"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1617.47,"endTime":1619.45,"body":"to face, that's a problem."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1619.45,"endTime":1623.35,"body":"But if that's just a kind of additional bonus, I think that's a great thing to do."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1623.5,"endTime":1629.8,"body":"And a lot of this revolves around how the other person is going to think about you,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1629.8,"endTime":1634.84,"body":"whether it's your behavior with your phone, whether it's how you interact during the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1634.84,"endTime":1641.59,"body":"conversation. And one of the things you write about is people's fear of being judged in a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1641.59,"endTime":1646.78,"body":"negative way because of your failures, because of things that perhaps you haven't"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1646.78,"endTime":1652.42,"body":"achieved, or an acknowledgment of a failing in your life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1652.42,"endTime":1655.99,"body":"Whether it's, I don't know, you haven't passed an exam or you've just ended a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1655.99,"endTime":1658.63,"body":"relationship and perhaps acknowledging that it was your fault."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1658.63,"endTime":1664.33,"body":"Whatever the the failure is in your life, there's this worry about what other people"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1664.33,"endTime":1665.77,"body":"think about you, right?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1665.77,"endTime":1672.13,"body":"We kind of assume that, sharing our failures or our, uh, or our vulnerabilities, that it's"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1672.13,"endTime":1675.76,"body":"going to be seen as a sign of weakness, that people are just going to focus very much on"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1675.76,"endTime":1680.53,"body":"the negative information that we're conveying, and they're going to be kind of alienated"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1680.53,"endTime":1684.31,"body":"by it. They're not going to want to connect with you once they know that you've made"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1684.31,"endTime":1685.51,"body":"these mistakes."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1685.93,"endTime":1692.77,"body":"that really, you know, those like with the liking gap, those assumptions are just too"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1692.77,"endTime":1698.29,"body":"pessimistic. People are very likely, actually, when you talk candidly about something"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1698.29,"endTime":1703.03,"body":"that you regret or something that's causing you anxiety and is worrying, you are people"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1703.03,"endTime":1708.6100000000001,"body":"are more likely to see that kind of declaration as an act of courage, because it is brave"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1708.6100000000001,"endTime":1712.8700000000001,"body":"to be able to talk about something that's personal and upsetting."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1714.01,"endTime":1720.04,"body":"and what's really crucial in those kinds of interactions is that, uh, to create this"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1720.1,"endTime":1726.1,"body":"shared reality, we we're really depending on each party being honest and open."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1726.22,"endTime":1731.1100000000001,"body":"You can't. The shared reality will crumble if you think that the other person is hiding"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1731.1100000000001,"endTime":1737.92,"body":"something from you or, exaggerating their successes and minimizing their weaknesses."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1737.92,"endTime":1742.45,"body":"And so when someone talks about a vulnerability, here's a sign that they trust you, and"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1742.45,"endTime":1745.69,"body":"it's a sign that you can trust them, that you do trust them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1745.8700000000001,"endTime":1751.24,"body":"so that's partly why it's so beneficial for connection to actually be more open about the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1751.24,"endTime":1753.49,"body":"things that might be causing us shame."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1753.49,"endTime":1758.83,"body":"And when you do so, uh, when people hear what you have to say, you might just be really"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1758.83,"endTime":1761.98,"body":"surprised with the amount of empathy that you receive."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1761.98,"endTime":1767.47,"body":"Because we're all human, we've all made mistakes, and people then feel better able to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1767.47,"endTime":1769.06,"body":"share their experiences."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1769.06,"endTime":1773.77,"body":"So that stops you feeling lonely where your failure might have made you feel very"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1773.77,"endTime":1778.54,"body":"isolated, like you were the only person going through that breakup, or the only person to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1778.54,"endTime":1782.92,"body":"have lost their job, or to have made some kind of huge mistake with their family."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1782.92,"endTime":1787.75,"body":"When you open up and you hear that other people have had similar experiences, that in"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1787.75,"endTime":1791.47,"body":"itself is is letting you know that you're not alone, that you are more connected to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1791.47,"endTime":1793.24,"body":"humanity as a whole."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1793.54,"endTime":1797.53,"body":"So it's about, to some extent, embracing our vulnerabilities."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1797.53,"endTime":1803.95,"body":"Is there a danger of perhaps exploiting our vulnerabilities, hoping for the the opposite"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1803.95,"endTime":1805.8700000000001,"body":"response that we might have otherwise feared?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1805.8700000000001,"endTime":1810.97,"body":"In other words, using a vulnerability to get a a more positive response?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1811.39,"endTime":1812.8,"body":"yeah. So, this."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1812.8,"endTime":1815.2,"body":"Phenomenon is called the beautiful mess effect."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1815.2,"endTime":1822.1,"body":"And I do think like, people could like theoretically try to use that quite manipulatively"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1822.1,"endTime":1823.75,"body":"they want to see more relatable."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1823.75,"endTime":1829.1200000000001,"body":"So they yeah, like describe their vulnerabilities just to kind of seem maybe to seem less"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1829.1200000000001,"endTime":1832.69,"body":"threatening. And then actually they're going to exploit that later on."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1832.69,"endTime":1833.95,"body":"And that is a danger."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1834.01,"endTime":1836.32,"body":"I don't think that is very common."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1836.68,"endTime":1841.1200000000001,"body":"but I do think we just have to be aware of like who we're talking to in general with my"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1841.1200000000001,"endTime":1846.52,"body":"book. Like, I try to emphasize that the laws of connection should be used ethically."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1846.52,"endTime":1852.28,"body":"Like, I don't think there's any benefit to trying to use these laws in a machiavellian,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1852.28,"endTime":1854.83,"body":"Machiavellian manner, because."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1855.59,"endTime":1860.72,"body":"You're gonna be found out sooner or later, and then that is just going to destroy all of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1860.72,"endTime":1862.6100000000001,"body":"the trust that you'd gained."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1862.79,"endTime":1868.07,"body":"So you're going to find yourself more isolated, and you're not going to get those"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1868.07,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"transactional gains you might have hoped for by acting in a manipulative manner."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1873.1100000000001,"endTime":1877.01,"body":"Well, the research really shows me is that actually, by being open, by being honest,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1877.58,"endTime":1882.68,"body":"people are likely to respond in kind and often, you know, all of that support just comes"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1882.68,"endTime":1887.75,"body":"naturally without any form of of manipulation at all necessary."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1887.75,"endTime":1892.52,"body":"You just the more you kind of give out to the world, the more you kind of receive from"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1892.52,"endTime":1893.48,"body":"people as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1893.84,"endTime":1900.02,"body":"So connecting this to the aging process and some of the issues that occur as people get"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1900.02,"endTime":1905.24,"body":"older, a primary issue, which has been highlighted by a number of organizations recently,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1905.24,"endTime":1911.54,"body":"is loneliness, the the fear of being left alone if you actually manage yourself to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1911.54,"endTime":1913.25,"body":"achieve a great age."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1913.25,"endTime":1918.08,"body":"And I guess the and there's a tremendous amount of research that connects social"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1918.08,"endTime":1920.78,"body":"connections with positive aging."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1920.78,"endTime":1927.38,"body":"I guess the challenge here is to master the art of social connections, and the kind of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1927.38,"endTime":1933.92,"body":"people that you have connections with to use it to counter potential impact of, of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1933.92,"endTime":1935.69,"body":"loneliness as you get older."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1936.34,"endTime":1937.45,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1937.45,"endTime":1939.79,"body":"It's like a resource that you're kind of building."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1939.79,"endTime":1941.6200000000001,"body":"I think your social connection."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1941.95,"endTime":1946.27,"body":"so it's, it's probably better to start as early as you can, but I think also if you are,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1946.84,"endTime":1952.99,"body":"in the later years of your life, like, it's not too late to start, social connection, you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1952.99,"endTime":1956.5,"body":"know, just looking for those opportunities to create social connection."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1956.5,"endTime":1959.17,"body":"I think it can be valuable at any age."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1959.17,"endTime":1963.82,"body":"One of the other psychological barriers that we can have, especially as we get older, is"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1963.82,"endTime":1967.96,"body":"believing that it's kind of going against the grain of our personality."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1967.99,"endTime":1973.45,"body":"We believe that we're just not wired to be sociable, but the research shows that's not"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1973.45,"endTime":1980.17,"body":"really true. You can look at, the personality spectrum of, introversion and extroversion,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1980.17,"endTime":1981.34,"body":"for example."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1982.27,"endTime":1986.98,"body":"lots of introverts, might just believe that they're not really cut out for being kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1986.98,"endTime":1992.95,"body":"gregarious. but the research shows that when you encourage people to be, uh, to be more"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1992.95,"endTime":1997.84,"body":"sociable, to talk to strangers, to be more talkative with the people around them, uh, to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":1997.84,"endTime":2002.73,"body":"open up. Everyone benefits no matter where they were on the introversion extroversion"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2002.73,"endTime":2006.18,"body":"scale. and I find that very encouraging."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2006.18,"endTime":2012.6,"body":"And the view from science now of our personalities is that they are influenced by genetic"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2012.6,"endTime":2016.77,"body":"factors, but that doesn't mean that they're not fixed and they can't be changed."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2016.77,"endTime":2021.8700000000001,"body":"And personality is really better seen as a kind of pattern of thoughts and behaviors that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2021.8700000000001,"endTime":2022.98,"body":"we carry with us."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2022.98,"endTime":2030.15,"body":"And through practice, we could just shift the shift that constellation of thoughts,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2030.39,"endTime":2032.16,"body":"beliefs, and behaviors."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2032.16,"endTime":2037.8600000000001,"body":"One way that we can do that is just to set implementation intentions, which is just very"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2037.8600000000001,"endTime":2043.1100000000001,"body":"specific plans for how we're going to carry out the new behavior that we want to enact"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2043.1100000000001,"endTime":2047.01,"body":"and with social connection to get more social connection."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2047.01,"endTime":2051.7799999999997,"body":"That could just be as simple as thinking, like, when I'm next at a coffee shop, I'm going"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2051.7799999999997,"endTime":2056.49,"body":"to talk to the person who's next in line to me, or I'm going to help someone with their"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2056.49,"endTime":2061.83,"body":"groceries. If they're struggling to carry their shopping at the supermarket, or next time"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2061.83,"endTime":2065.79,"body":"I see a cute dog in the park, I'm going to talk to his owner and just ask like what breed"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2065.79,"endTime":2071.2799999999997,"body":"it is, how old it is, all of those, you know, all of those natural questions that just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2071.2799999999997,"endTime":2074.67,"body":"emerge as soon as you, see someone's pet."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2074.91,"endTime":2079.5,"body":"Uh, the research shows that when you set those goals for yourself and you conduct, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2079.5,"endTime":2085.62,"body":"conduct it regularly every day, it takes just five days for people's expectations of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2085.62,"endTime":2087.27,"body":"those interactions to improve."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2087.27,"endTime":2092.25,"body":"So where they might have been worried about the conversation being awkward and difficult"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2092.25,"endTime":2096.21,"body":"and thought they'd be pretty unpleasant, that they might be rejected by the end of those"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2096.21,"endTime":2101.55,"body":"five days, people have updated their beliefs so that they have more confidence that, they"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2101.55,"endTime":2106.08,"body":"have the social competency to carry out those conversations that the other person, on"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2106.08,"endTime":2111.87,"body":"average, is likely to be pretty nice, and that they and the other person will just enjoy"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2111.87,"endTime":2113.04,"body":"the interaction."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2113.13,"endTime":2117.3,"body":"And the point being that, let's say the example of chatting to someone in the park about"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2117.3,"endTime":2124.11,"body":"your joint interest in cute puppies is it will invariably just a momentary interaction, a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2124.11,"endTime":2127.5,"body":"momentary conversation. This isn't necessarily going to be the beginning of a long term"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2127.5,"endTime":2130.35,"body":"friendship. It might be, but it's unlikely."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2130.35,"endTime":2132.48,"body":"But it's the impact of just that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2132.48,"endTime":2137.52,"body":"Like my 92nd encounter with a guy in a coffee shop who I'll probably never see again."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2137.52,"endTime":2143.16,"body":"It is that social connection in the moment and how it makes you feel, maybe for the rest"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2143.16,"endTime":2143.85,"body":"of the day."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2144.9,"endTime":2146.1,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly it."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2146.1,"endTime":2150.2400000000002,"body":"Like, we know that all kinds of social interactions are beneficial."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2150.2400000000002,"endTime":2154.92,"body":"So, interactions with weak ties like the one that you described, you know, that still"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2154.92,"endTime":2157.23,"body":"brings a wellbeing bonus to us."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2157.23,"endTime":2161.22,"body":"It's still improves our mood and it can last, like you said, for the whole day, if you're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2161.22,"endTime":2166.23,"body":"doing that day after day, it's just going to improve your overall mental resilience."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2166.23,"endTime":2170.13,"body":"But like you say, there's also there is the chance that this is going to."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2171.1,"endTime":2176.44,"body":"That from that seed of a connection that you've built with someone, there's something"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2176.44,"endTime":2180.34,"body":"better, might or more lasting, might flourish and grow from that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2180.34,"endTime":2184.9900000000002,"body":"We just don't know. But the more the the more that you practice this, the more"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2184.9900000000002,"endTime":2186.58,"body":"opportunities you're giving yourself."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2186.58,"endTime":2191.68,"body":"So just the more chance that over the 100 interactions you might have over a year, that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2191.68,"endTime":2195.61,"body":"one of them might lead to a lasting friendship, or more than one of them might lead to a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2195.61,"endTime":2196.69,"body":"lasting friendship."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2196.69,"endTime":2200.53,"body":"If you just hold yourself back, you're avoiding all of those opportunities."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2200.53,"endTime":2203.29,"body":"You're depriving yourself of those chances."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2203.41,"endTime":2208.6,"body":"And I think one of the challenges for older people, or indeed for all of us as we move"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2208.6,"endTime":2213.97,"body":"through the generations, is to develop and especially develop new social connections with"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2213.97,"endTime":2218.59,"body":"people who are younger than ourselves, in other words, from a different generation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2218.59,"endTime":2222.04,"body":"And I know a lot of people as they age find that extremely difficult."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2222.04,"endTime":2226.12,"body":"There are all sorts of potential barriers there that we have different pop culture"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2226.12,"endTime":2231.94,"body":"references. Talking about music and movies isn't always as easy with someone from a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2231.94,"endTime":2236.17,"body":"different generation. But again, I think the research shows that those kinds of cross"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2236.17,"endTime":2239.8,"body":"generation connections are so valuable to us."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2239.8,"endTime":2244.36,"body":"They are I mean, I think they're valuable to each party."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2244.36,"endTime":2248.89,"body":"So for the older person and the younger person, so when we were speaking about the"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2248.89,"endTime":2253.9900000000002,"body":"expectation effect, one of the chapters that I looked at was about how positive views of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2253.9900000000002,"endTime":2259.18,"body":"aging can, increase our longevity, through various mechanisms."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2259.18,"endTime":2263.98,"body":"And one of which is, is just that the more vulnerable that you feel as you get older, if"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2263.98,"endTime":2269.14,"body":"you associate aging with kind of illness and decline, the more stressed you're going to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2269.14,"endTime":2272.11,"body":"feel every day. And it's a kind of chronic stress that is bad for us."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2272.11,"endTime":2274.84,"body":"So that does accelerate the aging process."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2275.53,"endTime":2280.81,"body":"but what we find is that people are much less likely to develop those negative views of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2280.81,"endTime":2286.54,"body":"aging. If when they were younger, they had a lot of, interactions with older people that"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2286.54,"endTime":2292.03,"body":"could lead them to question the kind of stereotypes that are so pervasive in our culture."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2292.03,"endTime":2297.13,"body":"You know, if you had a great relationship with your grandparents and you know, your"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2297.13,"endTime":2301.15,"body":"neighbor who was 90 when you were five, but, you know, you played together in the garden"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2301.15,"endTime":2305.65,"body":"or whatever, you realized that actually these assumptions that aging automatically comes"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2305.65,"endTime":2310.57,"body":"with, uh, terrible vulnerability and a kind of lack of purpose, you know, you're just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2310.57,"endTime":2312.16,"body":"less likely to believe them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2312.4900000000002,"endTime":2318.94,"body":"so it's really important, you know, to, to build those positive role models of what it"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2318.94,"endTime":2322.78,"body":"means to age well, is to have these intergenerational friendships."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2322.78,"endTime":2327.97,"body":"And that's something that we have been losing in Western society, is that, older people"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2327.97,"endTime":2334.03,"body":"tend to be a bit more isolated physically, like, where they live from other from people"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2334.03,"endTime":2335.26,"body":"of different ages."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2335.26,"endTime":2337.51,"body":"And so it's kind of breaking down."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2337.69,"endTime":2342.79,"body":"There's something that we can consciously try to avoid if we make an effort to, to just"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2342.79,"endTime":2347.41,"body":"ignore someone's age, because the fact is, there's probably more that you have in common"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2347.41,"endTime":2351.91,"body":"than a different taste in music or film."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2351.91,"endTime":2353.11,"body":"Totally agree David."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2353.11,"endTime":2356.89,"body":"It is quite a personal book and you've reflected that already."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2356.89,"endTime":2362.29,"body":"It's based on your own insecurities to to some extent, and your fascination with yourself"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2362.29,"endTime":2364.3,"body":"and in terms of tackling some of these issues."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2364.3,"endTime":2369.46,"body":"So I'm curious in terms of having written the book, having done the research, are there"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2369.46,"endTime":2375.4,"body":"aspects of your everyday life now that you have changed and adapted because of what you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2375.4,"endTime":2379.9900000000002,"body":"know, because of your understanding of of some of these issues, and especially if they"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2379.9900000000002,"endTime":2383.32,"body":"apply to which is what interests me is, is the aging process."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2383.32,"endTime":2389.47,"body":"And as we as we if we do indeed aspire a great longevity, how it might affect that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2389.47,"endTime":2393.67,"body":"Yes, so for man, I think it's especially a problem."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2394.21,"endTime":2399.82,"body":"there's something called the friendship recession that as we get older into kind of our"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2399.82,"endTime":2405.25,"body":"40s, 50s and 60s, we find that we've lost, some of our friendships and we don't really"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2405.25,"endTime":2408.85,"body":"know how to build them up again."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2409.2400000000002,"endTime":2413.35,"body":"and, you know, our shyness actually increases as we get older."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2413.8,"endTime":2417.76,"body":"I'm 38, you know, I'm approaching, uh, that part of my life."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2417.76,"endTime":2423.88,"body":"And so something that I fight against, and reading about all of this research and,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2424.63,"endTime":2430.06,"body":"uncovering these laws of connection has just given me a lot more confidence, to kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2430.06,"endTime":2432.82,"body":"do that because a feeling, the liking gap."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2433.81,"endTime":2438.04,"body":"even if I got on with, like, acquaintances, you know, not my best friends, but like,"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2438.04,"endTime":2442.45,"body":"people who I kind of had met at work or, uh, through a friend of a friend, you know, if"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2442.45,"endTime":2444.4,"body":"they would invite me to a party, I would like."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2444.4,"endTime":2445.84,"body":"I'd just turned down the invitation."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2445.84,"endTime":2447.73,"body":"I'd make some excuse because I'd been."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2447.73,"endTime":2450.76,"body":"They were only asking me out of politeness."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2451.36,"endTime":2456.67,"body":"and now now that I know that, you know, our expectations are negative, and there's no"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2456.67,"endTime":2460.66,"body":"real rational reason to believe that someone is not being genuine there."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2461.59,"endTime":2464.29,"body":"I just accept a lot more invitations."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2464.71,"endTime":2469.0,"body":"and even if I felt nervous going to a party where I don't know many people."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2469.36,"endTime":2474.47,"body":"Well, now I know that actually with practice I can build that social confidence."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2474.47,"endTime":2480.29,"body":"And so the more I push myself out of my comfort zone and make me and make myself talk to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2480.29,"endTime":2483.26,"body":"people I don't know, the easier it will become."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2483.41,"endTime":2486.56,"body":"And so that, you know, I discovered that very early on in the writing of the book, and"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2486.56,"endTime":2490.22,"body":"it's definitely had a lasting impact for me."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2490.61,"endTime":2496.04,"body":"there are other techniques that I just love to apply that I think could work for anyone"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2496.04,"endTime":2497.12,"body":"of any age."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2497.87,"endTime":2502.43,"body":"just complimenting people more is one of the kind of basic lessons of the book."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2502.43,"endTime":2506.42,"body":"We often bite back our compliments because we don't have the faith that we're going to"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2506.42,"endTime":2508.67,"body":"express them in an elegant way."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2508.67,"endTime":2512.81,"body":"We think we might seem a bit kind of cringey when we tell someone how much we admire"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2512.81,"endTime":2518.03,"body":"them. but the other person doesn't really care on the exact phrasing that you're using."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2518.03,"endTime":2522.2,"body":"They're just pleased to hear that you're saying something warm and kind to them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2522.38,"endTime":2527.42,"body":"so we can just be a lot more confident in, in expressing our praise and to to make sure"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2527.42,"endTime":2528.47,"body":"we do say it."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2528.47,"endTime":2530.75,"body":"We do verbalize what we're feeling."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2532.34,"endTime":2533.54,"body":"uh, yeah."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2533.54,"endTime":2535.58,"body":"You know, just all of these techniques really."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2535.58,"endTime":2541.19,"body":"And I think just like reaching out to those older friends who maybe we are losing contact"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2541.19,"endTime":2546.23,"body":"with. The research shows, again, that we have these irrational fears that if we send a"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2546.23,"endTime":2551.33,"body":"message to, uh, someone who we haven't spoken to for a couple of years that they they're"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2551.33,"endTime":2555.29,"body":"going to be a bit annoyed with us, they might just not respond or they'll respond rudely."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2555.29,"endTime":2556.46,"body":"So we just don't bother."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2557.06,"endTime":2559.13,"body":"but they're probably feeling the same way."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2559.13,"endTime":2563.51,"body":"They really wanted to get in contact and they just haven't had enough time or or had been"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2563.51,"endTime":2565.25,"body":"feeling too shy to do so."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2565.25,"endTime":2572.33,"body":"And so just like being the first person to make the move, is going to work out, uh, like"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2572.33,"endTime":2576.26,"body":"it's going to work out well more often than it's going to work out badly."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2576.26,"endTime":2577.4,"body":"And so I just do that more."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2577.4,"endTime":2581.69,"body":"I just, a bit braver, I guess, in every social interaction that I have."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2581.72,"endTime":2584.96,"body":"Yeah, that's really interesting and certainly resonates with me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2584.96,"endTime":2591.11,"body":"I live in California, obviously, I'm from the UK originally, which is clearly over the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2591.11,"endTime":2592.43,"body":"decades that I've been here."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2592.43,"endTime":2595.91,"body":"But, uh, I was going to say a strain on relationships and friendships."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2595.91,"endTime":2597.59,"body":"Maybe strain isn't the right word."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2597.59,"endTime":2604.88,"body":"It's just a lack of connection because of geography and and time away from each other."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2604.88,"endTime":2609.44,"body":"But what I find is when I do reach back to those friends who I've known for several"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2609.44,"endTime":2615.59,"body":"decades now, the connection is always the reconnection is much easier than I'd expected,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2615.59,"endTime":2618.92,"body":"which goes right to the heart of what you're saying, just on the point of going to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2618.92,"endTime":2623.0,"body":"parties. And I suspect my personality is quite similar to yours."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2623.0,"endTime":2625.04,"body":"I've never been a party person."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2625.04,"endTime":2627.98,"body":"People say to me, you're in Los Angeles, you must go to lots of parties."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2627.98,"endTime":2629.63,"body":"And I say, no, I don't."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2629.63,"endTime":2633.89,"body":"And but what's changed for me, which is kind of the opposite to what you were saying, is"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2633.89,"endTime":2636.62,"body":"I now as an older person, I'm 62 now."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2636.62,"endTime":2641.03,"body":"I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I don't particularly find parties fun."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2641.03,"endTime":2643.73,"body":"I enjoy sort of one on one meetups."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2643.73,"endTime":2649.58,"body":"I enjoy a coffee with people or a small gathering or a dinner, but a big noisy party just"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2649.58,"endTime":2656.51,"body":"isn't for me. And whereas once I might have gone anyway just to be friendly, I now have"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2656.51,"endTime":2658.94,"body":"no qualms about saying, ah, it's not for me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2658.94,"endTime":2660.08,"body":"I'm going to give this a miss."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2660.08,"endTime":2664.4900000000002,"body":"And that's, that's another thing that I really want to emphasize is there's no kind of"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2664.4900000000002,"endTime":2666.83,"body":"one, you know, one no one size fits all."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2667.1,"endTime":2671.54,"body":"there's no correct way to be socially connected."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2671.72,"endTime":2673.37,"body":"it's going to be individual."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2673.37,"endTime":2678.14,"body":"Like some people will prefer to go to parties, others will prefer to meet people one on"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2678.14,"endTime":2680.39,"body":"one for those deeper conversations."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2680.39,"endTime":2683.48,"body":"Neither is more beneficial than the other."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2683.48,"endTime":2687.95,"body":"What's important, though, is just that if you feel that you're not getting enough social"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2687.95,"endTime":2695.36,"body":"connection, that you do, try to look for those opportunities in whatever way suits you"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2695.36,"endTime":2697.85,"body":"and feels right and authentic for you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2698.45,"endTime":2700.52,"body":"David, we're almost out of time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2700.52,"endTime":2707.69,"body":"Is there just concluding one point or a couple of points that come to mind that you would"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2707.69,"endTime":2713.48,"body":"most like people to take away from your experience and what you write about this in this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2713.48,"endTime":2718.73,"body":"book, you cover a lot of different phenomenon that many of which I hadn't heard of, but"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2718.73,"endTime":2721.1,"body":"fully resonate with the way that I'm thinking."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2721.1,"endTime":2723.65,"body":"But is there something you'd like people to take away with them?"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2724.4,"endTime":2729.71,"body":"It is so there's one very simple technique that I haven't mentioned that I think we can"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2729.71,"endTime":2731.51,"body":"all use and is very useful."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2732.02,"endTime":2736.7,"body":"essentially, we often feel worried about asking for help from other people because we"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2736.7,"endTime":2741.14,"body":"believe we're going to be a burden and that it's, going to alienate them."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2741.14,"endTime":2746.09,"body":"But actually, there's a phenomenon called the Benjamin Franklin effect, based on what he"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2746.09,"endTime":2751.19,"body":"had written in his autobiography about how asking for a favor from someone can actually"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2751.19,"endTime":2753.8,"body":"strengthen the relationship."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2754.1,"endTime":2756.7400000000002,"body":"this phenomenon is well known in Japan."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2756.7400000000002,"endTime":2758.69,"body":"There's a word for it called a-mei."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2759.11,"endTime":2761.51,"body":"and it's something that we can all use ourselves."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2761.51,"endTime":2766.46,"body":"So whenever we feel that we're struggling to cope, it's okay to ask for help."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2766.46,"endTime":2770.96,"body":"And actually, you might just find that it strengthens your connection with the person."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2771.44,"endTime":2773.54,"body":"there, you're asking for the favor."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2774.35,"endTime":2779.9,"body":"secondly, it's a broader point, and I just think, you know, all of this research, what it"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2779.9,"endTime":2785.36,"body":"adds up to is just showing that we all have an amazing potential to connect and whatever"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2785.36,"endTime":2787.97,"body":"individual way we go about that."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2788.72,"endTime":2794.45,"body":"we, you know, the support that we need really is within our reach."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2794.45,"endTime":2801.62,"body":"And, if we just try to be a bit braver, um, we'll be really surprised by, by the benefits"},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2801.62,"endTime":2802.64,"body":"that we receive."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2804.08,"endTime":2806.93,"body":"Really fascinating. David, I'm going to put a link to your book."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2806.93,"endTime":2810.56,"body":"There'll be a full transcript of this conversation in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2810.56,"endTime":2811.88,"body":"Really interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2811.88,"endTime":2815.57,"body":"I hopefully will reconnect with you very soon."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2815.57,"endTime":2817.25,"body":"Maybe we'll have another cup of coffee next time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2817.25,"endTime":2818.51,"body":"I'm in London."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2818.51,"endTime":2821.15,"body":"All the best with the book and thanks for talking to us."},{"speaker":"David Robson","startTime":2821.39,"endTime":2822.98,"body":"Thanks for the great questions."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2823.01,"endTime":2828.17,"body":"This podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2828.2,"endTime":2830.66,"body":"We do not offer medical advice."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2830.69,"endTime":2836.03,"body":"If you have health concerns of any kind or you are considering adopting a new diet or"},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2836.03,"endTime":2839.69,"body":"exercise regime, you should first consult your doctor."}]}