{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":0.08,"endTime":4.37,"body":"You put several drops on these windows and it, separates blood from serum."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":4.37,"endTime":7.46,"body":"And then this is dried, and it has a two week lifetime, and you just put it on your"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":7.46,"endTime":12.92,"body":"mailbox, the USPS picks it up, and then it gets tested for 17 biomarkers."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":19.01,"endTime":26.02,"body":"Michael Dubrovsky is a materials chemist, chief product officer and co-founder of SiPhox"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":26.02,"endTime":32.7,"body":"Health, the company behind this system of home blood testing, a service that claims to be"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":32.7,"endTime":38.19,"body":"as clinically accurate as traditional methods without the need to go to your doctor's"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":38.19,"endTime":40.29,"body":"office to provide a sample."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":40.29,"endTime":44.55,"body":"Is this the future for keeping track of our vital biomarkers?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":44.55,"endTime":47.4,"body":"Indeed, what are our vital biomarkers?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":47.4,"endTime":48.51,"body":"Why do they matter?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":48.54,"endTime":52.95,"body":"Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":52.95,"endTime":58.87,"body":"I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":58.87,"endTime":60.07,"body":"Michael, it's good to meet you."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":60.1,"endTime":61.21,"body":"Great meeting you, Peter."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":61.21,"endTime":62.38,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":62.38,"endTime":65.59,"body":"So I posed the question, is this the future?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":65.59,"endTime":67.57,"body":"I guess you believe it is."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":67.81,"endTime":69.97,"body":"Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's already here, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":69.97,"endTime":71.59,"body":"It's just not evenly distributed."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":71.59,"endTime":73.39,"body":"That's like the classic trope."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":73.39,"endTime":79.53,"body":"But, you know, I think people that are spending a lot of money on concierge medicine live"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":79.53,"endTime":81.99,"body":"longer, and they also get blood tests more frequently."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":81.99,"endTime":87.12,"body":"So you'll typically get a quarterly pretty broad blood test if you're, you know, top"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":87.12,"endTime":91.35,"body":"couple percent in wealth and are are paying a lot for concierge medicine."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":91.35,"endTime":96.42,"body":"So what we're doing is really just trying to make that accessible and convenient for"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":96.42,"endTime":101.52,"body":"people who don't have the time or money to, to do, you know, extensive venous blood draws"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":101.52,"endTime":102.38,"body":"every quarter."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":102.38,"endTime":104.69,"body":"And the company's called SiPhox Health."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":104.69,"endTime":106.16,"body":"How did you come up with that name?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":106.16,"endTime":111.38,"body":"We're a SiPhox is a short for silicon photonics."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":111.38,"endTime":115.16,"body":"So we are originally you know, we started the company."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":115.16,"endTime":117.86,"body":"We ended up doing blood testing very quickly."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":117.86,"endTime":120.17,"body":"But at the beginning it was not a blood testing company."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":120.17,"endTime":125.42,"body":"It was just a pure silicon photonics company, which is a semiconductor technology for"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":125.42,"endTime":127.4,"body":"controlling light on a chip."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":127.46,"endTime":129.2,"body":"And so that's where the name comes from."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":129.2,"endTime":133.43,"body":"We tacked on health once we decided to to go for blood testing."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":133.43,"endTime":137.06,"body":"Got it. And I described you as a materials chemist."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":137.06,"endTime":142.82,"body":"Can you just elaborate on that in terms of what your academic background is and what your"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":142.82,"endTime":147.38,"body":"experience is that essentially brought you to this point of founding a company like this?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":147.41,"endTime":152.64,"body":"Yeah. So I've spent my whole career in kind of a combination of startups and academia."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":152.91,"endTime":161.16,"body":"I originally studied chemistry and biochemistry, and then worked more in, you know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":161.16,"endTime":168.15,"body":"hardware like electronics manufacturing and then eventually back to academia in Technion"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":168.15,"endTime":173.4,"body":"and MIT, working on, photonics like, and materials."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":173.4,"endTime":178.21,"body":"So, you know, kind of nanotechnology related to controlling light."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":178.51,"endTime":183.1,"body":"About seven years ago or so, I kind of discovered, you know, for me, it was discovery."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":183.1,"endTime":184.66,"body":"Obviously, that's been going on for a long time."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":184.66,"endTime":190.09,"body":"Is this thing called silicon photonics, which is taking the existing equipment that"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":190.09,"endTime":191.17,"body":"produces transistors."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":191.17,"endTime":195.31,"body":"So, like in your computer or phone, you have all these electronic chips that are doing"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":195.31,"endTime":197.47,"body":"logic, and also you have your camera chip."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":197.47,"endTime":201.38,"body":"There are many different chips in the computer, in a computer or phone, but there's"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":201.53,"endTime":206.48,"body":"taking that technology and using it to miniaturize optics is relatively new."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":206.48,"endTime":210.08,"body":"So the real use case where it's been commercialized is the internet."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":210.08,"endTime":214.16,"body":"So like this phone call we're having or this recording, it's going through fiber optic"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":214.16,"endTime":215.75,"body":"cables between data centers."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":215.75,"endTime":219.32,"body":"And at the end of each cable is a silicon chip that's actually controlling that data"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":219.32,"endTime":223.87,"body":"flow. And it processes the light that's coming in and out of of these fiber optic cables."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":223.87,"endTime":228.1,"body":"So when I discovered silicon photonics, it had already it was like kind of becoming very"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":228.1,"endTime":229.66,"body":"successful in the, in internet."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":229.66,"endTime":235.48,"body":"So it was helping scale the internet, you know, in the, kind of like 2017 or circa 2017,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":235.48,"endTime":240.55,"body":"2018. And there was a question of like, what's the next use case of this technology?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":240.55,"endTime":244.27,"body":"So I've kind of came at a point where it was clearly winning in the internet."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":244.27,"endTime":246.07,"body":"And the question is what's next?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":246.31,"endTime":249.14,"body":"and so that's some of what I've been trying to answer myself."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":249.14,"endTime":252.68,"body":"And also with my co-founder at SiPhox, who has spent his whole career in silicon"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":252.68,"endTime":257.33,"body":"photonics. So he actually built, you know, a lot well known products in the internet"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":257.33,"endTime":259.16,"body":"space based on silicon photonics."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":259.16,"endTime":264.44,"body":"And we kind of decided together to start SiPhox and very quickly realized that we could"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":264.44,"endTime":267.77,"body":"apply this optics technology to miniaturizing blood testing tools."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":267.77,"endTime":271.63,"body":"And the reason is that if you open up, if you go into a central lab like a LabCorp or"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":271.63,"endTime":276.88,"body":"Quest in America, they're using tools to do blood tests that are primarily full of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":276.88,"endTime":282.55,"body":"optics. So if you open the tool, it's lasers, lenses, mirrors, and so on and so there's"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":282.55,"endTime":287.2,"body":"like a clear opportunity to evolve the technology to, you know, to be used in this, these"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":287.2,"endTime":289.09,"body":"kind of like biotech use cases."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":289.51,"endTime":294.4,"body":"And so about four and a half years ago, when we started the company, we saw this this is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":294.4,"endTime":299.68,"body":"a pretty, pretty good opportunity because a lot of trends are kind of, coming together in"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":299.68,"endTime":302.56,"body":"the sense that, you know, like health care is very broken."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":302.89,"endTime":305.92,"body":"but a lot of the solutions are very data driven, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":305.92,"endTime":309.25,"body":"Like solutions that kind of make sense, like trying to fix, you know, okay, let's take"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":309.25,"endTime":311.86,"body":"health care and just make it the way it is in Europe or something."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":311.86,"endTime":315.22,"body":"It's very difficult. Right? But if you take a data driven approach, maybe you can get"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":315.22,"endTime":318.13,"body":"around some of the issues that the health care system has."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":318.13,"endTime":321.92,"body":"And, you know, everybody has a personal story of like problems they've had with with the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":321.92,"endTime":323.63,"body":"American health care system."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":323.63,"endTime":328.31,"body":"So it's easy to think of, kind of problems and sometimes even solutions."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":328.31,"endTime":332.57,"body":"But basically that that caused us to focus like, okay, if we can make this happen, it"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":332.57,"endTime":336.14,"body":"could be something that affects, you know, hundreds of millions, billions of people."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":336.44,"endTime":338.69,"body":"and that's historically just ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":339.2,"endTime":340.82,"body":"I think is really important point."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":340.82,"endTime":345.72,"body":"If you look at what products have scaled to, you know, to like billions of people to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":345.72,"endTime":348.09,"body":"affect billions of people, it's really not that many things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":348.09,"endTime":350.79,"body":"So like there are manufacturing methods like injection molding, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":350.79,"endTime":354.51,"body":"Like if you want a piece of plastic or an aluminum can, you know, like stamping."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":354.51,"endTime":357.78,"body":"There's only a couple of things. If you want something very complicated and you want to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":357.78,"endTime":362.55,"body":"give it to billions of people, it's really a chip, you know, like like a camera chip in"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":362.55,"endTime":363.96,"body":"your phone is $1, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":363.96,"endTime":367.74,"body":"So like the Kodak camera with film, that would have never happened."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":367.74,"endTime":371.43,"body":"It's just impossible. So the chip industry, the semiconductor industry is amazing at"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":371.43,"endTime":373.11,"body":"scaling something very complicated."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":373.11,"endTime":376.98,"body":"And that's why there's, you know, some hope of actually taking that enormous blood test"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":376.98,"endTime":380.34,"body":"tool that takes up a whole table and miniaturizing it to something you could have on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":380.34,"endTime":382.32,"body":"your, you know, countertop in your house."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":382.32,"endTime":387.63,"body":"So I can see what the initial, let's say, academic challenge was for you."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":387.63,"endTime":391.2,"body":"And you mentioned the health care system as you see it being broken."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":391.2,"endTime":396.0,"body":"This is something I hear from a lot of people and also the personal stories, the personal"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":396.0,"endTime":400.44,"body":"reasons for people wanting to do something like blood testing at home, to have a much"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":400.44,"endTime":406.14,"body":"deeper dive in a much easier way in terms of their own personal, the current status of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":406.14,"endTime":410.91,"body":"their health. Was there a personal incentive for you?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":410.91,"endTime":414.57,"body":"Because, as I say, I kind of get the academic challenge, but I'm just wondering if there"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":414.57,"endTime":420.43,"body":"was a personal, almost a light bulb moment for you to want to apply to your knowledge, to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":420.43,"endTime":427.87,"body":"this medical sphere and this whole new era of people being able to monitor their own"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":427.87,"endTime":429.04,"body":"health at home."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":429.61,"endTime":434.8,"body":"Yeah, I think it's you know, originally we both my co-founder and I both kind of came into"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":434.8,"endTime":436.42,"body":"it with slightly different motivation."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":436.42,"endTime":440.84,"body":"So because he's when he did his PhD, my co-founders name was Diedrich."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":440.84,"endTime":444.71,"body":"So he did his PhD in Belgium, at like the center."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":444.71,"endTime":449.27,"body":"It's like the big Silicon photonics research center, one of one of the two in the world."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":449.57,"endTime":453.11,"body":"And it's, he he was there like when he did his PhD."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":453.14,"endTime":454.7,"body":"There were no commercial products at all."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":454.7,"endTime":458.84,"body":"And but when I when I met him, he had already designed like one of the chips that"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":458.84,"endTime":461.6,"body":"actually traffics, like 50% of all internet traffic."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":461.6,"endTime":465.28,"body":"So it was this, you know, his career is kind of like him in silicon photonics have grown"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":465.28,"endTime":469.48,"body":"together. And so his thinking was like, how do I apply this to the next thing?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":469.48,"endTime":472.42,"body":"Right? Like, how do we scale this, do more with it?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":472.54,"endTime":478.06,"body":"For me, I because I had a chemistry and biology background and then I had gotten into"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":478.06,"endTime":480.49,"body":"silicon photonics and photonic materials."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":480.73,"endTime":485.11,"body":"I was excited about, like, merging my just my, like, the things that I knew about."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":485.11,"endTime":489.25,"body":"Right. So for me, just from a personal level, it was interesting to combine biology,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":489.25,"endTime":491.56,"body":"chemistry and these photonic chips."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":491.56,"endTime":492.97,"body":"Right? So that was the original thing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":492.97,"endTime":495.46,"body":"It was like some intellectual curiosity."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":495.46,"endTime":497.05,"body":"Also, we knew that it was a big market."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":497.05,"endTime":498.31,"body":"I mean, these are just the practical things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":498.31,"endTime":502.51,"body":"Like if you're honest, it's if you want VC funding, you need something that's a very big"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":502.51,"endTime":506.59,"body":"market. Right? So if you make a tool that's used by some researchers or something that's"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":506.59,"endTime":510.16,"body":"typically not really fundable, you have to get government grants or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":510.16,"endTime":515.61,"body":"But if you do something that really affects society, then you can also raise a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":515.61,"endTime":517.02,"body":"money for it and actually make it happen."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":517.02,"endTime":520.8,"body":"So you kind of it starts to narrow, you know, your scope."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":520.83,"endTime":522.36,"body":"And that's how it started out."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":522.36,"endTime":528.3,"body":"But then as we started working on it, you know, more and more got sucked into this whole"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":528.3,"endTime":531.48,"body":"space. And I had known about it a little bit tangentially."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":531.48,"endTime":538.31,"body":"I mean, I have a lot of doctors in my family and, you know, myself kind of have never"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":538.31,"endTime":540.95,"body":"really had any good experiences with health care."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":541.19,"endTime":547.04,"body":"So as we started doing this, we started trying every single health care product, like"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":547.04,"endTime":549.65,"body":"direct to consumer health care product on the market, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":549.65,"endTime":552.77,"body":"And having lots of conversations with doctors in all walks of life and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":552.77,"endTime":558.86,"body":"And so just got more and more into this, as it was all happening like probably by year"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":558.86,"endTime":560.12,"body":"two of the company."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":560.12,"endTime":563.94,"body":"So a couple of years now, it's like two and a half years ago, my father got pancreatic"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":563.94,"endTime":568.95,"body":"cancer. And so I got to go through the entire process of him, like going through the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":568.95,"endTime":572.97,"body":"machine. you know, even though, like here in Boston, we have, like, some of the best"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":572.97,"endTime":577.11,"body":"hospitals in America was still like a really, it's like, very disappointing experience, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":577.11,"endTime":582.81,"body":"would say. And you could see in all of that how if you're going to build a solution to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":582.81,"endTime":586.71,"body":"this, it's going to be centered around something more personalized, more convenient and"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":586.71,"endTime":592.05,"body":"so on. And that only encouraged us to really like focus on like you can actually focus on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":592.05,"endTime":593.4,"body":"many different things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":593.64,"endTime":595.08,"body":"if you're building a blood testing tool."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":595.08,"endTime":597.96,"body":"So, for example, the classic story is like Theranos, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":597.96,"endTime":603.27,"body":"So they wanted to replace the yearly blood draw with a draw that you do at your at your"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":603.27,"endTime":604.29,"body":"doctor's office."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":604.29,"endTime":608.19,"body":"But in reality, and now there are like three different companies, like legitimate ones"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":608.19,"endTime":610.42,"body":"that are pretty close to launching something like this."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":610.42,"endTime":613.75,"body":"So like kind of like your yearly blood draw, but you get it in half an hour at the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":613.75,"endTime":617.23,"body":"doctor's office. And but you still need, let's say, a phlebotomist to get the tube of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":617.23,"endTime":620.47,"body":"blood and so on. And so that that seems like, oh, that's sci fi."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":620.47,"endTime":625.0,"body":"It's amazing. But in reality, you still it's still something that's happening once a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":625.0,"endTime":626.02,"body":"year, probably."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":626.02,"endTime":629.05,"body":"It's still you still get two minutes of your doctor's time."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":629.05,"endTime":632.44,"body":"So there are a lot of things that like, you know, if you plug into a broken system, it"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":632.44,"endTime":634.31,"body":"doesn't necessarily you fix one component."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":634.64,"endTime":636.26,"body":"You're not necessarily improving that much."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":636.26,"endTime":639.38,"body":"I mean, certainly there's a lot of benefit to getting the results right away, but it"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":639.38,"endTime":642.05,"body":"doesn't solve a lot of the fundamental issues."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":642.2,"endTime":645.89,"body":"So I think, you know, when we looked at it, we were much more excited about, okay, what's"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":645.89,"endTime":649.52,"body":"really working. And if you look like the companies that were out there, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":649.52,"endTime":651.86,"body":"couple of years ago, it's like what's oh, interesting."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":651.86,"endTime":655.25,"body":"Like levels health was an interesting one where they're taking the continuous glucose"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":655.25,"endTime":658.1,"body":"monitor but using it to help people that are not diabetic."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":658.1,"endTime":661.54,"body":"Right. But actually, you know, maybe pre-diabetic or they're having sleep issues or, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":661.54,"endTime":663.28,"body":"know, they need it for weight loss or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":663.28,"endTime":668.02,"body":"So looking and seeing like what what are the solutions that are actually working like"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":668.02,"endTime":671.71,"body":"surprisingly well versus oh, like people are pretty dissatisfied."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":671.71,"endTime":676.09,"body":"Maybe we can make this a little better or like catch this many more cases a little bit"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":676.09,"endTime":679.09,"body":"earlier or whatever, versus how do you completely change it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":679.09,"endTime":684.65,"body":"And from our perspective, you know, at home asynchronous, more data driven, potentially"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":684.65,"endTime":688.31,"body":"AI driven over time that that felt to us like a better direction."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":688.31,"endTime":692.96,"body":"So for people watching and listening to this, who whose interest you have piqued through"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":692.96,"endTime":698.39,"body":"this detailed background as to how you came to this point, let's talk about what you have"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":698.39,"endTime":703.4,"body":"developed. And I have tried it myself, and we'll talk about my experience in in a moment."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":703.4,"endTime":708.22,"body":"But just in pure practical terms, what is it that you have produced?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":708.22,"endTime":710.71,"body":"How do people use it and what can they expect from it?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":710.71,"endTime":716.23,"body":"Yeah. so basically so what we've been working on, there's a two, two kind of product"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":716.23,"endTime":719.56,"body":"thrusts at the company or the major ones."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":719.56,"endTime":723.49,"body":"So we have a hardware program where we're building a at home cartridge."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":723.49,"endTime":727.12,"body":"So you can actually see in here there's a small chip, this black square."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":727.54,"endTime":732.64,"body":"and so that that comes out of a silicon wafer like this, and it's got a lot of optics on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":732.64,"endTime":737.26,"body":"it to do blood testing, and it goes in a kind of like a microfluidic system where, where"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":737.26,"endTime":741.7,"body":"the fluidic steps happen to perform the blood test, the blood test chemistry."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":741.7,"endTime":743.5,"body":"So this is not available yet."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":743.5,"endTime":748.21,"body":"This has to go through FDA clearance to be used in the home, and in the interim while"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":748.21,"endTime":751.72,"body":"we're working on that. So that's a multi year program that's been going on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":751.72,"endTime":754.0,"body":"And it takes quite a while to get to market."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":754.06,"endTime":756.05,"body":"but you know we're having some very good results with it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":756.08,"endTime":757.79,"body":"We demoed a conferences and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":757.79,"endTime":762.05,"body":"We launched like a more intermediate product, but it still turned out that we could build"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":762.05,"endTime":764.81,"body":"something that was much better than anything else on the market."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":764.81,"endTime":770.63,"body":"So it's similar to other like home test kits where you get a kit and you, you collect"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":770.63,"endTime":774.26,"body":"your blood and mail it to a central lab so you're not getting the result right away."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":774.26,"endTime":775.4,"body":"It has to go through the mail."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":775.4,"endTime":780.69,"body":"But the the way we set it up is we use a card that actually you put several drops on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":780.69,"endTime":783.93,"body":"these windows and it, separates blood from serum."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":783.93,"endTime":787.83,"body":"And then this is dried and it has a two week lifetime so it can travel through, like,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":787.83,"endTime":792.93,"body":"convenient. you just put it on your mailbox, the USPS picks it up, and then it gets"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":792.93,"endTime":795.0,"body":"tested for 17 biomarkers."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":795.0,"endTime":799.68,"body":"So one of the things we discovered was that a lot of companies like what they do is they"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":799.68,"endTime":802.23,"body":"look at people are searching like cholesterol tests."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":802.23,"endTime":805.43,"body":"Right. And so then they make a kit like this for cholesterol."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":805.43,"endTime":808.91,"body":"But you have to go through the whole process of pricking your finger, collecting the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":808.91,"endTime":811.13,"body":"blood, mailing it, buying it, like everything."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":811.13,"endTime":815.48,"body":"And you just get, you know, two results, you know, HDL, LDL, total cholesterol, whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":815.48,"endTime":820.49,"body":"Right. And what we said is, okay, we want to do is we want to see what's what."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":820.49,"endTime":824.03,"body":"Can you really get out of blood testing if you if you try to do like high performance."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":824.03,"endTime":828.09,"body":"Right. So we packed as many biomarkers as we could into this one test."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":829.41,"endTime":834.3,"body":"and what that what we found is that people really preferred that because you get all of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":834.3,"endTime":838.02,"body":"these results, you don't have to necessarily even know, like let's say you might not"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":838.02,"endTime":842.94,"body":"realize you have a thyroid issue, but if we screen you for TSH, which is like the thyroid"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":842.94,"endTime":847.26,"body":"stimulating hormone, and we find that that's high, that then goes down a path of, okay,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":847.26,"endTime":850.41,"body":"we found like a root cause issue that would not have been discovered."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":850.41,"endTime":854.26,"body":"Like you wouldn't have known, you wouldn't be searching thyroid, you know, thyroid tests"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":854.26,"endTime":855.28,"body":"necessarily. Right."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":855.28,"endTime":859.12,"body":"So it's the idea was let's just do a comprehensive test because the person's going"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":859.12,"endTime":862.33,"body":"through all the trouble of taking, you know, of collecting their sample and mailing it"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":862.33,"endTime":865.24,"body":"and so on. And that's been very successful."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":865.54,"endTime":868.63,"body":"You know, we have thousands of thousands of people taking tests every month."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":869.26,"endTime":871.09,"body":"and it's growing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":871.09,"endTime":875.05,"body":"And what we found is that actually different people use it for different things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":875.05,"endTime":877.49,"body":"But but it's, it's it's really validated."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":877.49,"endTime":881.78,"body":"The thesis that we had that more data is better, more markers is better."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":881.78,"endTime":886.67,"body":"And it's it can also be done at a like a cost that's affordable relative to other, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":886.67,"endTime":890.63,"body":"know, relative to like the overall cost of, you know, staying healthy."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":917.61,"endTime":922.59,"body":"And just in terms of the practicalities of doing this, this I think for some people would"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":922.59,"endTime":926.79,"body":"be even though I've done it and it is actually quite simple, it would still be quite"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":926.8000000000001,"endTime":931.48,"body":"daunting for some to have to go through the fingerprick the making sure you're doing it"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":931.48,"endTime":937.3000000000001,"body":"properly. You offer a a real time video guidance for this, which is something that I took"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":937.3000000000001,"endTime":939.01,"body":"advantage of as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":939.04,"endTime":941.14,"body":"Could you just talk me through how that works?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":941.14,"endTime":945.13,"body":"I mean, essentially you're talking to a real person who's step by step will talk you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":945.13,"endTime":945.7,"body":"through it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":945.7,"endTime":950.32,"body":"Yeah. So we found, you know, when we started doing this, actually, I think we launched"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":950.32,"endTime":956.19,"body":"let's see, we launched it internally to 30 people about two years ago, and we were taking"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":956.22,"endTime":957.24,"body":"tests every week."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":957.24,"endTime":960.45,"body":"And we found that there's a big difference between different people, like how easily are"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":960.45,"endTime":962.85,"body":"they able to collect the blood from their finger and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":962.85,"endTime":967.0500000000001,"body":"And we really optimize that experience like we're always optimizing it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":967.0500000000001,"endTime":969.15,"body":"That's something that we're constantly trying to improve."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":969.15,"endTime":971.52,"body":"And so now we have several things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":971.61,"endTime":974.6700000000001,"body":"One of them, maybe you didn't get to try this, but we actually have a tool that you put"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":974.6700000000001,"endTime":978.76,"body":"on your finger that that vacuums your finger a little bit to get more blood to the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":978.76,"endTime":982.51,"body":"surface of the skin, and that allows you to more easily collect after, like when you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":982.51,"endTime":984.91,"body":"actually prick yourself, you get more blood easily."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":984.91,"endTime":986.32,"body":"You don't have to squeeze as much."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":986.6800000000001,"endTime":991.15,"body":"But what we did that's really a game changer is we have as you're registering your test,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":991.15,"endTime":995.5,"body":"you can hit live help and you can immediately talk to somebody and they'll walk you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":995.5,"endTime":997.3000000000001,"body":"through the basics of doing it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":997.3000000000001,"endTime":1000.4,"body":"And once you've done it once, that's the thing we realized because we do repeat testing,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1000.4,"endTime":1002.32,"body":"it's worth it for us to do that for free."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1002.32,"endTime":1005.83,"body":"Because once the person has done it right once, it's very easy for them to do it again."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1006.28,"endTime":1010.0,"body":"and that's something that, like a lot of other companies can't do because they sell one"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1010.0,"endTime":1014.5,"body":"off tests. It's not really designed as a repeat testing, service."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1014.5,"endTime":1017.5,"body":"So you take your own sample, you send it off in the mail."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1017.5,"endTime":1022.03,"body":"The result comes in a week or so it took for me to get my results."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1022.03,"endTime":1026.27,"body":"And I suppose the key question that everyone's going to be wondering is how accurate are"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1026.27,"endTime":1031.1,"body":"these results when you compare them with traditional laboratory testing, where you go to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1031.1,"endTime":1035.72,"body":"your doctor's office and you provide the blood sample, obviously much more blood into a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1035.72,"endTime":1039.86,"body":"vial. You provide the sample there and then you wait for your results."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1040.1,"endTime":1045.5,"body":"In terms of and what kind of clinical trials have been done to to validate this, how"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1045.5,"endTime":1049.05,"body":"accurate are these tests compared with those that people will be more used to?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1049.08,"endTime":1054.03,"body":"So I think one thing to realize is that when you when you have blood collected for, like"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1054.03,"endTime":1057.3,"body":"standard lab draw, not the entire sample is used."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1057.57,"endTime":1059.49,"body":"So they're not actually using the whole sample."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1059.49,"endTime":1062.49,"body":"There's a whole business of selling left over samples for studies and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1062.49,"endTime":1066.81,"body":"So they always collect a very conservative conservative in the sense that more than they"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1066.81,"endTime":1071.88,"body":"need these samples like that, you you sent yours in and so on, they're all processed on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1071.89,"endTime":1076.8700000000001,"body":"actually FDA cleared analyzers, so they're not being processed yet on our technology."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1076.8700000000001,"endTime":1078.04,"body":"That's something we're working towards."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1078.04,"endTime":1079.48,"body":"But again, that requires clearance."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1079.48,"endTime":1083.53,"body":"So we're just maxing out what's possible with the FDA cleared tool."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1083.53,"endTime":1088.54,"body":"There is a, something I mean, this is like technical, but there's another, agency called"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1088.54,"endTime":1092.26,"body":"CLIA. It's a federal agency that regulates these tests where you're mailing it to a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1092.26,"endTime":1097.65,"body":"central lab. And so that agency has a ton of requirements for validating because we are"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1097.65,"endTime":1098.73,"body":"rehydrating the blood, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1098.73,"endTime":1100.47,"body":"It's being dried and then rehydrated."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1100.47,"endTime":1104.22,"body":"And so the the lab that we work with that does this for us."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1104.22,"endTime":1109.2,"body":"They have to go through a very big validation of every single biomarker, showing that if"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1109.2,"endTime":1112.68,"body":"you take it from the finger versus taking it from a venous draw, you're going to get the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1112.68,"endTime":1115.35,"body":"same results if you go through this process versus the venous draw."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1115.35,"endTime":1119.25,"body":"So there's a really actually a pretty robust regulatory framework around it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1119.25,"endTime":1122.1100000000001,"body":"And we're like all the other companies that sell at home tests."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1122.1100000000001,"endTime":1123.58,"body":"You know, we're subject to that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1123.58,"endTime":1125.05,"body":"Just to give you an example."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1125.05,"endTime":1128.14,"body":"And I will stress that obviously I'm just one person."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1128.14,"endTime":1134.68,"body":"And when I took my test and then a few weeks later had similar tests in the regular way,"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1134.68,"endTime":1137.83,"body":"going to the doctor's office and providing blood, clearly you're not doing this at"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1137.83,"endTime":1142.48,"body":"exactly the same time, so you wouldn't expect exactly the same results."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1142.48,"endTime":1147.83,"body":"But just broadly speaking, I'm just looking at HDL, LDL, triglycerides, total"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1147.83,"endTime":1154.3700000000001,"body":"cholesterol, HDL was within one milligram per deciliter 48 versus 49."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1154.3700000000001,"endTime":1161.93,"body":"So almost the identical results the LDL, triglycerides, total cholesterol, your test was"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1162.05,"endTime":1168.47,"body":"tended to be lower than the laboratory test, about 18mg per deciliter lower for LDL"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1168.47,"endTime":1172.6200000000001,"body":"triglycerides, 14 lower 18 for total cholesterol."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1172.6200000000001,"endTime":1177.63,"body":"Again, totally acknowledge that these were done on different days at different times."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1177.63,"endTime":1181.98,"body":"My behavior in the previous 24 hours will have been slightly different as well."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1181.98,"endTime":1185.94,"body":"But what it does show me, and taking into account some of the other results as well, it"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1185.94,"endTime":1192.57,"body":"showed me the trends in terms of generally what was high and what was in a in a normal"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1192.57,"endTime":1194.93,"body":"range and what was maybe on a low side of a range."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1194.93,"endTime":1199.94,"body":"And I've only done your test once, and perhaps to make a really sound judgment, you would"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1199.94,"endTime":1203.57,"body":"want to do it repeatedly over, over a period of of time."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1203.57,"endTime":1207.47,"body":"Is there a just bearing in mind those numbers that I've just given to you?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1207.47,"endTime":1209.09,"body":"Is that kind of typical?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1209.09,"endTime":1210.8600000000001,"body":"Yeah, I think so."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1210.8600000000001,"endTime":1216.17,"body":"So we have, you know, the types of people that like to use, you know, home testing are"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1216.17,"endTime":1220.73,"body":"often very curious And and they'll do like these side by side tests."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1220.73,"endTime":1222.23,"body":"So that happens all the time."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1222.95,"endTime":1227.0,"body":"the closer they are temporally like we always recommend like try to actually prick your"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1227.0,"endTime":1229.79,"body":"finger at the wherever you're getting your venous draw done."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1229.79,"endTime":1233.9,"body":"And then and then the comparison is more direct, especially for something that depends a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1233.9,"endTime":1237.08,"body":"little bit on how long have you fasted and all these things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1237.68,"endTime":1242.89,"body":"but in, in general, if you go to two different companies that do blood testing, this is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1242.89,"endTime":1247.39,"body":"important. Just like public service announcement, the the industry doesn't like to talk"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1247.39,"endTime":1250.03,"body":"about this that much. But if they're using different tools."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1250.03,"endTime":1253.03,"body":"So there are, you know, big players like Siemens, Roche, like the people who make the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1253.03,"endTime":1257.89,"body":"machines. Each tool will give a slightly different result for the same sample, and it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1257.89,"endTime":1259.42,"body":"because of the way that they're validated."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1259.42,"endTime":1260.89,"body":"It's a longer discussion."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1261.28,"endTime":1266.45,"body":"but but basically because of that, there's a little bit of a blur around, let's say the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1266.45,"endTime":1270.1100000000001,"body":"ideal cholesterol is 70 or whatever the number is."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1270.1100000000001,"endTime":1273.74,"body":"Well, there's a blur around that because we're the studies done with a Siemens tool or a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1273.74,"endTime":1277.79,"body":"Roche tool. And so it's not quite as precise as we would like."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1277.79,"endTime":1281.39,"body":"You know, as an engineer, you want it to be, I put a volt meter on a battery."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1281.39,"endTime":1282.8600000000001,"body":"It says three volts, right."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1282.8600000000001,"endTime":1284.18,"body":"This is the voltage of the battery."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1284.18,"endTime":1288.2,"body":"But in reality, you know, in the blood testing industry, every tool will give you a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1288.2,"endTime":1289.4,"body":"slightly different result."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1289.4,"endTime":1293.31,"body":"And so that variation is kind of built into all of the clinical decision making that goes"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1293.31,"endTime":1296.55,"body":"on normally. And it's also how you have to view your own results."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1296.82,"endTime":1299.1,"body":"like that's something that doctors take into account."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1299.58,"endTime":1304.8,"body":"And so the ideal thing is using the same test repeatedly over time, because that test"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1304.8,"endTime":1309.45,"body":"will agree with itself a lot better than with like LabCorp will agree with LabCorp better"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1309.45,"endTime":1310.77,"body":"than it will with Quest."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1310.77,"endTime":1315.88,"body":"And so that because they're using the same tools every time and And so that in general"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1315.88,"endTime":1317.89,"body":"trends work very well."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1318.25,"endTime":1324.19,"body":"and there's enough agreement between labs that, you know, if you have a high ApoB, you're"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1324.19,"endTime":1326.71,"body":"not going to have a low ApoB at another lab."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1326.8600000000001,"endTime":1331.96,"body":"But, you know, if the if it changed 10% from lab to lab, I wouldn't view that as, oh,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1331.96,"endTime":1332.98,"body":"I've lowered my ApoB."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1332.98,"endTime":1335.8600000000001,"body":"That's just kind of the noise that's that's inherent in this."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1335.95,"endTime":1340.82,"body":"And what is your recommendation for what people should do with the results?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1340.82,"endTime":1345.98,"body":"So you're doing this away from your doctor, away from your regular professional health"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1345.98,"endTime":1347.09,"body":"care person."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1347.09,"endTime":1352.55,"body":"And you are. And you provide a lot of information in terms of the standard ranges, the"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1352.55,"endTime":1353.57,"body":"normal ranges."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1353.57,"endTime":1360.44,"body":"And people are essentially analyzing these results at home and then interpreting the data"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1360.44,"endTime":1365.28,"body":"and perhaps wondering what to do next if they see something that concerns them."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1365.28,"endTime":1370.56,"body":"Presumably the next step is to go to their regular healthcare practitioner, show them"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1370.56,"endTime":1373.5,"body":"these results, and have a discussion about what to do."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1373.65,"endTime":1375.3600000000001,"body":"So it depends a little bit."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1375.3600000000001,"endTime":1381.9,"body":"So, if something is really out of range, like in a, you know, there's a serious kind of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1381.9,"endTime":1384.42,"body":"imminent risk we'll actually call."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1384.45,"endTime":1387.6200000000001,"body":"So we'll call the person and notify them."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1387.6200000000001,"endTime":1391.49,"body":"We will offer them to do a free venous draw to confirm."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1391.49,"endTime":1395.48,"body":"So because often if you take the number to your doctor and it's very out of range,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1395.48,"endTime":1397.52,"body":"they're going to say, oh I don't know this at home test."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1397.52,"endTime":1399.29,"body":"Let's just send you to get like a venous draw."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1399.29,"endTime":1402.23,"body":"So we preempt that and say just go, we'll pay for it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1402.23,"endTime":1405.92,"body":"Just go get the venous draw. So when you go see your doctor you'll have the number with"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1405.92,"endTime":1409.34,"body":"you. Like they, you know, incontrovertibly this is a LabCorp number."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1409.34,"endTime":1413.52,"body":"And you know. So that's - we found that to be helpful, historically."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1413.52,"endTime":1417.24,"body":"We've actually generally that's always yielded the same thing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1417.24,"endTime":1418.92,"body":"But you know the doctor just wants to see it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1418.92,"endTime":1422.04,"body":"So it skips you. It skips like a week of back and forth."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1422.58,"endTime":1426.99,"body":"so, so I think for very out of range values, you want to get that handled like directly"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1426.99,"endTime":1428.04,"body":"in the medical system."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1428.04,"endTime":1432.93,"body":"What happens is for for values that are not out of range enough, where your doctor will"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1432.93,"endTime":1437.6200000000001,"body":"say, well, you know, let's wait and see basically or this isn't out of region enough if"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1437.6200000000001,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"you want optimal health, if you do your research, you'll see that, okay, optimal health"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1443.8,"body":"is actually not this."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1443.8,"endTime":1446.44,"body":"It's a little bit lower or it's a little bit higher, whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1446.44,"endTime":1449.89,"body":"And so we try to provide that context and it's all evidence based."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1449.89,"endTime":1453.04,"body":"Just what what's the best best known research out there."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1453.04,"endTime":1456.16,"body":"We encourage people to do their own research consult with their doctor."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1456.16,"endTime":1461.03,"body":"But we provide a lot of data and information that you can you can go as far kind of down"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1461.03,"endTime":1462.17,"body":"the rabbit hole as you want."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1462.17,"endTime":1469.22,"body":"And then also, we do have coaching where you can, pay for pay $69 to have somebody"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1469.22,"endTime":1470.99,"body":"actually walk through the results with you."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1471.5,"endTime":1476.81,"body":"and we recently launched another program which is like much more full stack, which is a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1476.84,"endTime":1481.19,"body":"we call it the Heart Health Blueprint, where you can actually get a full assessment of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1481.19,"endTime":1484.5,"body":"your heart disease risk. And that includes more like you have to answer a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1484.5,"endTime":1487.6200000000001,"body":"lifestyle questions and family history questions and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1487.65,"endTime":1491.6100000000001,"body":"Blood pressure, waist to height, circumference, waist circumference to high, all these"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1491.6100000000001,"endTime":1495.99,"body":"things. So we take all that data and we actually put it through the American Heart"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1495.99,"endTime":1497.6100000000001,"body":"Association risk calculator."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1497.6100000000001,"endTime":1501.69,"body":"And we give you like your ten year chance of of having a heart, you know, like a heart"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1501.69,"endTime":1504.45,"body":"attack or stroke versus your 30 year chance."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1504.45,"endTime":1509.92,"body":"And then you know, you get a full assessment and next steps, which includes if you, if,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1509.92,"endTime":1514.09,"body":"if you need it, you can actually talk to a doctor via telemedicine service that we work"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1514.09,"endTime":1518.77,"body":"with and get prescribed a low dose statin, for example, or some of the other options."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1518.77,"endTime":1522.88,"body":"So we've gone as far as like for that use case, because it's so common where somebody"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1522.88,"endTime":1524.8600000000001,"body":"wants to lower their heart disease risk."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1524.8600000000001,"endTime":1527.71,"body":"We've built like a more full stack offering where you can go straight through the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1527.71,"endTime":1529.93,"body":"telemedicine. For a lot of the other things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1529.93,"endTime":1534.27,"body":"We provide a lot of lifestyle feedback, so we have a whole insight system that provides"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1534.27,"endTime":1538.92,"body":"personalized feedback, like here are the, you know, couple of things that are really well"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1538.92,"endTime":1544.2,"body":"understood that modify this marker and that we've had a lot of great results with that,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1544.2,"endTime":1546.54,"body":"where people can just apply these things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1546.54,"endTime":1550.26,"body":"We try to find like kind of like the 80, 20, like things that seem to work, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1550.26,"endTime":1552.9,"body":"the studies show that they seem to work for a lot of people."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1552.9,"endTime":1556.72,"body":"And it's something that in the end, you have to try on yourself and look at the data like"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1556.72,"endTime":1561.43,"body":"test again. That's one of the flaws in kind of like these articles that's like chocolate"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1561.43,"endTime":1562.69,"body":"is good for this or whatever, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1562.69,"endTime":1567.22,"body":"So if you look at the studies, typically what you'll see is like, well, only 50% of the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1567.22,"endTime":1569.44,"body":"people in the study benefited from it or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1569.44,"endTime":1571.24,"body":"And so are you in that 50%?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1571.24,"endTime":1575.2,"body":"Well, there's no way. I mean, there's no way to know without like at least as of today,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1575.2,"endTime":1578.29,"body":"it's very difficult to know without just trying it and testing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1578.29,"endTime":1582.48,"body":"And I think that's the basic version of that is you try something and see how you feel,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1582.48,"endTime":1584.07,"body":"right? Like as my sleep better or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1584.07,"endTime":1587.28,"body":"But I think a data driven approach is even better in some cases."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1587.28,"endTime":1591.33,"body":"And you can see, you know, like, does this lower my inflammation is my, you know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1591.33,"endTime":1593.97,"body":"hormonal health better if I take the supplement or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1593.97,"endTime":1595.92,"body":"And that's something we enable people to do."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1595.92,"endTime":1598.59,"body":"It's about taking control of your own health, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1598.65,"endTime":1599.82,"body":"That's essentially what you're saying."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1599.82,"endTime":1601.5,"body":"That you're providing."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1601.5,"endTime":1607.98,"body":"You're helping individuals access their own data, and then it's up to all of us really to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1607.98,"endTime":1614.34,"body":"decide how to use that data, who to share that data with and to get the best possible"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1614.34,"endTime":1615.99,"body":"advice. And that is the real challenge, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1615.99,"endTime":1620.43,"body":"And that's why so many people are confused and you talk about, you know, mainstream news"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1620.43,"endTime":1624.66,"body":"articles about chocolate or coffee or alcohol or this is good for you, this is bad for"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1624.66,"endTime":1630.73,"body":"you. It's this information overload that we're getting that is is confusing people."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1630.73,"endTime":1635.53,"body":"And I think what the challenge for people like you and to some extent for me to try to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1635.53,"endTime":1641.59,"body":"explain these issues in simple terms, is, is to do that is to break everything down, to"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1641.59,"endTime":1646.81,"body":"make it relevant to ordinary people, because otherwise I think people just get lost and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1646.81,"endTime":1651.4,"body":"almost drown in the amount of data that's available to them and become more and more"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1651.4,"endTime":1652.15,"body":"confused."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1652.15,"endTime":1655.85,"body":"Yeah. I mean, I think the good news is actually that, like if you look at the discourse,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1655.85,"endTime":1661.6100000000001,"body":"let's say 10 or 20 years ago versus today, I think there's quite a bit of progress in the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1661.6100000000001,"endTime":1666.71,"body":"sense that things that are more evidence based, that work that show up in bloodwork, that"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1666.71,"endTime":1670.49,"body":"show up and stuff like that. It's not only is the medical community getting more"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1670.49,"endTime":1674.3600000000001,"body":"comfortable with, oh, this lifestyle thing actually works, right, or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1674.3600000000001,"endTime":1679.04,"body":"But actually, I think the internet is just helping people, you know, the things that have"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1679.04,"endTime":1682.82,"body":"high signal to noise, like like they actually something meaningful is happening."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1682.82,"endTime":1688.85,"body":"They tend to rise to the top in the podcast world, in Reddit, in all these places where"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1688.85,"endTime":1693.68,"body":"there's a bit of a competition, like an evolutionary competition, where like, I think a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1693.68,"endTime":1697.46,"body":"good example of this, you know, the classic example is like, you know, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1697.46,"endTime":1701.51,"body":"people giving health advice, but like, why is Huberman so successful?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1701.51,"endTime":1705.56,"body":"I think maybe some percentage of what he's saying doesn't even work."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1705.56,"endTime":1708.65,"body":"Right. But I think some of the things like I'll give you a simple example, like the thing"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1708.65,"endTime":1713.27,"body":"with the light in your eyes that's that just works like, for me at least so if I do the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1713.27,"endTime":1716.0,"body":"thing he says, you know, this is like what he says on every episode, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1716.0,"endTime":1720.5,"body":"You get up right away, go look at sunlight for five minutes, and it's going to set your"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1720.5,"endTime":1722.72,"body":"circadian rhythm like I really do."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1723.14,"endTime":1728.6100000000001,"body":"You know, I can objectively, this is this improves my sleep and sleep and wake cycle if I"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1728.6100000000001,"endTime":1734.34,"body":"do this. and I think that's part of the reason that he's become very successful is, is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1734.34,"endTime":1736.6200000000001,"body":"like at least at one hack is true."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1736.6200000000001,"endTime":1738.3600000000001,"body":"Right? And he keeps repeating it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1738.3600000000001,"endTime":1742.71,"body":"And so I think there is like a meritocracy that exists on the internet."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1742.71,"endTime":1744.03,"body":"And that's actually a good thing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1744.03,"endTime":1747.57,"body":"Right. And eventually a lot of these things will make it into like more mainstream"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1747.57,"endTime":1748.68,"body":"medicine as well."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1748.92,"endTime":1751.69,"body":"which is worse at dealing with like lifestyle stuff."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1751.69,"endTime":1754.57,"body":"Right? Like how do you prescribe lifestyle, right, or whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1754.57,"endTime":1756.6100000000001,"body":"But they're starting to think about that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1756.6100000000001,"endTime":1757.63,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1757.63,"endTime":1762.46,"body":"One of the things we hear a lot about in the the podcast world is ApoB, which you've"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1762.46,"endTime":1765.1,"body":"already mentioned, a tremendous amount of conversation about that."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1765.1,"endTime":1771.3700000000001,"body":"Could you just, in simple terms as possible, explain why you think ApoB testing is"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1771.3700000000001,"endTime":1775.22,"body":"important? Of course, it is one of the tests that's included in your particular test."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1775.25,"endTime":1775.46,"body":"."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1775.46,"endTime":1778.49,"body":"So so there are two factors as far as I understand it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1778.49,"endTime":1782.15,"body":"So I think the person who can really speak on this is our head of clinical product who's,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1782.15,"endTime":1785.75,"body":"who's like a lipids, you know, lipids enthusiast."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1786.08,"endTime":1790.73,"body":"but I think who might be a great guest also for, for this podcast."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1790.73,"endTime":1796.88,"body":"But basically, the, the fundamental thing is that LDL like in a big population, you're,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1797.03,"endTime":1803.35,"body":"low density cholesterol is is predictive, like it does predict heart disease and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1803.35,"endTime":1807.22,"body":"But if you start breaking it down, it's not it's not predictive in all populations."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1807.22,"endTime":1811.18,"body":"And the reason is that what you're measuring, it's a little bit technical, but what"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1811.18,"endTime":1815.38,"body":"you're measuring when you measure cholesterol, like the normal LDL, HDL is you're"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1815.38,"endTime":1818.6200000000001,"body":"measuring the quantity of this fat in your blood."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1818.6200000000001,"endTime":1822.65,"body":"So your blood carries, fats, which are used for energy storage and so on."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1822.65,"endTime":1824.06,"body":"And so it's measuring the quantity."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1824.06,"endTime":1827.63,"body":"Let's say if I take a milliliter of your blood, how much fat is in there?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1827.93,"endTime":1831.05,"body":"so this, this many milligrams of fat per per milliliter."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1831.05,"endTime":1836.03,"body":"What it doesn't tell you is the way the fat is carried in blood is it's carried on"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1836.03,"endTime":1838.97,"body":"proteins. So these proteins are apolipoproteins."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1838.97,"endTime":1843.44,"body":"And so the protein that carries the fat, it doesn't tell you how many of those proteins"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1843.44,"endTime":1847.5,"body":"you have, because you can have one protein carrying a lot of fat or many, many of these"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1847.5,"endTime":1848.82,"body":"proteins carrying a little bit."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1848.82,"endTime":1854.64,"body":"And it turns out that the stronger correlation to heart disease and other other chronic"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1854.64,"endTime":1860.07,"body":"disease is the number of these proteins that carry the low density fat, the LDL fats."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1860.07,"endTime":1863.01,"body":"That's why it's called ApoB apolipoprotein B."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1863.01,"endTime":1867.09,"body":"The number of these particles in your in your bloodstream seems to be much better"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1867.09,"endTime":1868.5,"body":"correlated to heart disease."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1868.5,"endTime":1872.56,"body":"And there's also some connection to metabolic dysfunction."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1872.56,"endTime":1877.24,"body":"So if you're not good at processing sugar, dealing with the sugar control, that's going"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1877.24,"endTime":1880.8700000000001,"body":"to show up more in your ApoB than it does in LDL."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1880.8700000000001,"endTime":1885.3700000000001,"body":"So because there's a lot of interconnection between your heart health, like a chances of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1885.3700000000001,"endTime":1890.08,"body":"heart disease and your metabolic health, and ApoB kind of integrates both of those to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1890.08,"endTime":1895.82,"body":"some extent. So those two factors kind of in the end, there's extremely good data showing"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1895.82,"endTime":1900.71,"body":"that ApoB the risk is much better correlated to ApoB than LDL."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1900.98,"endTime":1903.41,"body":"And that's been known, I think, for 20 years."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1903.41,"endTime":1907.1,"body":"But the problem is just there's a lot of inertia in the medical system."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1907.1,"endTime":1912.05,"body":"And and LDL has all the really big studies have been done with LDL."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1912.23,"endTime":1914.84,"body":"all the, you know, kind of like, should I take statins or not?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1914.84,"endTime":1917.06,"body":"All of that is based on LDL, and there's good reasons for that."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1917.06,"endTime":1920.7,"body":"But more and more, the medical community is moving towards ApoB."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1920.7,"endTime":1923.79,"body":"And certainly if you're getting concierge medicine, they're looking at your ApoB."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1923.82,"endTime":1927.81,"body":"So it's just a matter of when, not if with that marker."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1927.81,"endTime":1930.24,"body":"And we're just trying to bring that day closer."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1930.24,"endTime":1931.8,"body":"Right. So like let's get everybody tested."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1931.8,"endTime":1935.3700000000001,"body":"I think the same is true for LP(a) little A which which is a little bit less popular."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1935.3700000000001,"endTime":1938.6100000000001,"body":"But that's another one that's like a big risk factor for heart disease."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1938.6100000000001,"endTime":1945.05,"body":"What do you say to doctors in traditional medical systems who say that we're moving"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1945.05,"endTime":1948.41,"body":"towards a time of overtesting, that we're doing too much."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1948.41,"endTime":1953.0,"body":"We're looking at too much. I did an episode recently about full body scans, which are a"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1953.0,"endTime":1954.41,"body":"very, very controversial."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1954.41,"endTime":1957.35,"body":"Concierge medicine people swear by them."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1957.35,"endTime":1962.51,"body":"These days, your traditional doctors say there's not enough evidence to support them, and"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1962.51,"endTime":1964.97,"body":"the insurance companies don't support them either."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1964.97,"endTime":1971.31,"body":"But in terms of your field and the criticism that this could be verging on overtesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":1971.31,"endTime":1972.3,"body":"So what do you say to that?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1972.33,"endTime":1975.3600000000001,"body":"Yeah. So I mean, I think it really depends on your incentives."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1975.57,"endTime":1981.1200000000001,"body":"so, you know, there's the population level where you're trying to manage your 300 million"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1981.1200000000001,"endTime":1986.16,"body":"person population and spend X dollars to get Y benefit, health care benefit."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1986.91,"endTime":1990.75,"body":"also the incentives of, okay, we have this much time."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1990.75,"endTime":1993.22,"body":"The doctor has n number of hours in the day, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1993.22,"endTime":1994.63,"body":"So he's going to work for eight hours a day."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1994.63,"endTime":1996.73,"body":"How are we going to spread this time between people."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1996.73,"endTime":1998.23,"body":"Right. That's the second thing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":1998.23,"endTime":2002.13,"body":"And the third thing is how many years is the insurance company responsible for your"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2002.13,"endTime":2006.8700000000001,"body":"health? So if you're staying on the same insurance for three years, year four, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2006.8700000000001,"endTime":2009.0,"body":"they just they cannot care, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2009.0,"endTime":2012.93,"body":"Like they're just not they're financially disincentivized to care about what happens to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2012.93,"endTime":2017.83,"body":"you in year four. So for them finding an issue, unfortunately this is just how it is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2017.83,"endTime":2020.98,"body":"finding an issue in America at least finding an issue."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2020.98,"endTime":2023.89,"body":"Let's say today that's only going to affect you in five years."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2023.89,"endTime":2028.42,"body":"If the average customer for an insurance stays for three years, they have to deal with"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2028.42,"endTime":2032.29,"body":"the problem now, but they don't get any of the benefit of making you healthier in five"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2032.29,"endTime":2035.98,"body":"years. So all of these factors, you know, are in play."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2035.98,"endTime":2040.55,"body":"And certainly if you collect a ton of data about somebody, you're you're going to get"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2040.55,"endTime":2043.34,"body":"false positives. You know, things that don't like, especially with scans."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2043.34,"endTime":2044.57,"body":"You know, I have a friend that did this."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2044.57,"endTime":2047.78,"body":"He did a scan and they thought they saw something in his prostate."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2047.78,"endTime":2050.33,"body":"So you had to go to like seven prostate exams."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2050.33,"endTime":2052.22,"body":"It was very invasive. It's kind of funny."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2052.22,"endTime":2054.92,"body":"And in the end and he's kind of a hyper hypochondriac."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2054.92,"endTime":2056.42,"body":"So I'm sure, you know it's made him nervous."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2056.42,"endTime":2058.64,"body":"He's like, oh my God, you know whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2058.64,"endTime":2061.91,"body":"Right. So so there's all this, there's actually a there's a great paper."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2061.91,"endTime":2065.37,"body":"I don't remember the name, but it's like the crossover point where actually you're"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2065.37,"endTime":2069.69,"body":"hurting somebody by testing them more because there's your there's some cost to testing."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2069.69,"endTime":2071.97,"body":"Right. Like for x rays it's very clear."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2071.97,"endTime":2073.23,"body":"Right. You're getting irradiated."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2073.23,"endTime":2076.62,"body":"Right. So if you get an x ray every day, you know, at some point you're actually giving"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2076.62,"endTime":2079.11,"body":"yourself cancer, right. Rather than finding cancer."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2079.11,"endTime":2083.16,"body":"But I think over time as we get better at processing the data."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2083.16,"endTime":2088.26,"body":"Right. So so you want to have more and more software, less and less human time to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2088.28,"endTime":2093.05,"body":"understand the data and the better we are at acting on it, I think then you can handle"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2093.05,"endTime":2097.67,"body":"more data. So I think, you know, is there a purpose to scanning people if you can't"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2097.67,"endTime":2099.53,"body":"really interpret the data properly?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2099.53,"endTime":2100.58,"body":"Probably not. Right."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2100.58,"endTime":2105.17,"body":"But but on the other hand, if you're doing multiple scans over time, not my expertise,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2105.17,"endTime":2109.28,"body":"but I think if you're doing if you have a scan, let's say from your age, 30, and then you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2109.28,"endTime":2114.1,"body":"do a scan at 35, you might be much better at interpreting that 35 year old scan because"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2114.1,"endTime":2115.2400000000002,"body":"you have the previous one."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2115.2400000000002,"endTime":2116.92,"body":"So you can look at the differences, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2116.92,"endTime":2120.76,"body":"But now if the person's already sick and you're scanning them, it might be much more"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2120.76,"endTime":2122.53,"body":"difficult to, interpret."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2122.53,"endTime":2125.35,"body":"So so I'm I'm in the more data camp."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2125.59,"endTime":2128.71,"body":"I do think there's a risk, especially if you have the kind of personality where you get"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2128.71,"endTime":2129.79,"body":"very worried."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2130.03,"endTime":2135.13,"body":"I think there is a risk of, like, over, over measuring SiPhox, I would say, is all the"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2135.13,"endTime":2137.53,"body":"way on the side of you should measure these things."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2137.53,"endTime":2141.01,"body":"So if you look at like what's out there in the market, there are tests that will measure"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2141.01,"endTime":2143.17,"body":"like 100 or 500 biomarkers."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2143.17,"endTime":2147.1,"body":"And I think a lot of them, it's really low chance that you're going to get something out"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2147.1,"endTime":2148.9,"body":"of it. It's just like a ton of information."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2148.9,"endTime":2154.27,"body":"And that marker, you know, is very rarely insightful, but it's just a way of like it's a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2154.27,"endTime":2156.82,"body":"vanity number, like we measure 500 biomarkers."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2156.82,"endTime":2160.63,"body":"Right. But I think the nice thing about what we've done is we were limited."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2160.63,"endTime":2164.75,"body":"Like like we collect very little blood so we can only measure, you know, 10, 20 markers."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2164.75,"endTime":2169.28,"body":"And so we really went for the ones where if you look at a thousand people and you measure"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2169.28,"endTime":2172.13,"body":"these markers, you're going to have a big health benefit from knowing these numbers"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2172.13,"endTime":2176.2400000000002,"body":"because they're the ones that correlate over time to all the major, you know, chronic"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2176.2400000000002,"endTime":2180.5,"body":"diseases that end up, you know, basically debilitating people and eventually killing"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2180.5,"endTime":2184.16,"body":"them. And so so I think from that perspective, you know, six out of ten Americans have a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2184.16,"endTime":2187.15,"body":"chronic disease, three out of ten, three out of ten of two."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2187.18,"endTime":2189.64,"body":"So it's not like a rare thing or something."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2189.64,"endTime":2194.71,"body":"And and it's to me it feels like we're under-testing like I think every American should,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2194.71,"endTime":2198.94,"body":"should be getting at least once a year a test with the markers that, that we test like it"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2198.94,"endTime":2202.12,"body":"should just be something that goes along with your yearly blood panel."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2202.6,"endTime":2205.33,"body":"So that's my bias take, I would say."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2205.33,"endTime":2212.2,"body":"And Michael, what kind of anecdotal feedback have you had from the users of your product?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2212.2,"endTime":2217.15,"body":"You must have heard stories from people about how they've responded, what sort of data"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2217.15,"endTime":2220.84,"body":"they've gathered, and how they've used that to their benefit."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2220.87,"endTime":2222.25,"body":"Yeah, I think a great example."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2222.25,"endTime":2224.77,"body":"So I can give you two, two interesting examples."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2225.04,"endTime":2229.12,"body":"one is we used this was early on, so we hadn't done a lot of tests."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2229.12,"endTime":2231.19,"body":"And this was kind of the first big one."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2231.19,"endTime":2234.18,"body":"So it sticks in my memory is we called them Ferritin guy."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2234.21,"endTime":2238.44,"body":"So we had a guy who came up with a Ferritin, which is the protein that stores iron."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2238.44,"endTime":2240.36,"body":"It's ten times higher than normal."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2240.36,"endTime":2243.09,"body":"And we thought, oh my God, like, there must be a lab error."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2243.09,"endTime":2245.43,"body":"Like, this is so embarrassing, you know, whatever."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2245.43,"endTime":2250.14,"body":"And we had him go and test and LabCorp and he comes back, same number."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2250.14,"endTime":2252.21,"body":"And he went and got diagnosed."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2252.21,"endTime":2255.57,"body":"He's a young guy around my age, you know, 35 or something."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2255.57,"endTime":2257.77,"body":"And he hadn't been feeling that great for several years."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2257.77,"endTime":2262.54,"body":"And it turned out he had hemochromatosis, which is a condition where you have very high"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2262.54,"endTime":2268.12,"body":"iron levels. And he had done a bunch of like he wrote us this whole long review so people"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2268.12,"endTime":2272.05,"body":"can go find it and read it. But basically he had been through a lot of like medical stuff"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2272.05,"endTime":2273.61,"body":"and they never tested iron."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2273.94,"endTime":2275.44,"body":"they never tested ferritin."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2275.44,"endTime":2277.57,"body":"And basically there's a simple fix."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2277.57,"endTime":2279.13,"body":"So now he goes and gives blood."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2279.13,"endTime":2282.68,"body":"And so he's basically able to reduce his iron levels by giving blood."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2282.68,"endTime":2284.12,"body":"And he feels much better."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2284.12,"endTime":2288.89,"body":"And the important thing is that over time, this is a really dangerous condition that can"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2289.04,"endTime":2290.69,"body":"shorten your life by decades."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2291.26,"endTime":2292.61,"body":"and a fair amount."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2292.61,"endTime":2295.76,"body":"I forget what the percentage is, but it's not a small percentage of people actually have"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2295.76,"endTime":2298.1,"body":"this. It's partially genetic."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2298.61,"endTime":2302.9900000000002,"body":"and so that that was like a very interesting example where super low cost, I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2302.9900000000002,"endTime":2306.96,"body":"know, in the scheme of things, very low cost test added, you know, potentially decades of"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2306.96,"endTime":2308.94,"body":"life to this to this guy's life."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2308.94,"endTime":2310.41,"body":"And he's, you know, he has kids."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2310.41,"endTime":2312.45,"body":"He's like in the, in the, you know, peak of his life."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2312.45,"endTime":2315.69,"body":"Right. And this was like a huge unlock for him."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2316.11,"endTime":2321.12,"body":"I think another very interesting one was, we had somebody who tested for a high ApoB."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2322.14,"endTime":2324.03,"body":"They ended up going and getting it."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2324.03,"endTime":2328.38,"body":"But the interesting thing is they had a low LDL, so doing their normal cholesterol test,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2328.38,"endTime":2331.4,"body":"they wouldn't have seen anything They tested high in ApoB."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2331.4,"endTime":2332.84,"body":"They were suspicious, very healthy."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2332.84,"endTime":2335.57,"body":"So they were running half marathons like fit everything."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2335.57,"endTime":2337.94,"body":"And so he went and got tested a Cat scan."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2337.94,"endTime":2341.96,"body":"So the follow up thing to do might be to get a Cat scan, which is a calcium scan that"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2341.96,"endTime":2343.58,"body":"actually looks at what's in your arteries."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2343.58,"endTime":2347.9,"body":"And they were so blocked that he basically was immediately told, like, you have to get two"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2347.9,"endTime":2350.45,"body":"stents. You're like very close to getting a heart attack."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2350.45,"endTime":2352.73,"body":"So he ended up getting two stents."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2353.18,"endTime":2354.89,"body":"you know, he's back to running marathons."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2354.89,"endTime":2358.07,"body":"Another guy who wrote us, like, a long, you know, saved my life review."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2358.22,"endTime":2362.9,"body":"but that those kinds of stories, once you start testing lots of people, these things just"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2362.9,"endTime":2367.1,"body":"start happening because it's, at the population level, there are a lot of people walking"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2367.1,"endTime":2369.65,"body":"around with these kinds of, like, ticking time bombs."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2369.98,"endTime":2373.01,"body":"I think a very typical one is like early thyroid issues."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2373.01,"endTime":2376.28,"body":"You know, you really only find out that your thyroid is functional, like pretty far down"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2376.28,"endTime":2377.36,"body":"the line with symptoms. Right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2377.36,"endTime":2378.82,"body":"So you'll see the symptoms."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2378.82,"endTime":2381.88,"body":"They're hard to tell apart from general malaise, right."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2381.88,"endTime":2384.34,"body":"So you'll only see the symptoms pretty far down the line."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2384.34,"endTime":2385.69,"body":"So we've seen a lot of that."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2385.87,"endTime":2387.46,"body":"And you know I can keep going."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2387.46,"endTime":2390.79,"body":"But that's the kind of category of things that that that we like to see."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2390.79,"endTime":2393.79,"body":"And we're excited that okay we're actually making a difference."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2394.18,"endTime":2395.7400000000002,"body":"Yeah. I think it's really interesting."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2395.7400000000002,"endTime":2400.03,"body":"Michael, this has been a really fascinating conversation in the show notes for this"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2400.03,"endTime":2402.58,"body":"episode. I'll obviously put a link to the product."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2402.58,"endTime":2404.57,"body":"There's a transcript of this conversation."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2404.57,"endTime":2410.69,"body":"Just in closing, I'm just curious, based on your knowledge and your background and what"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2410.69,"endTime":2414.77,"body":"you've managed to do with this product and your aspirations for the future, how do you"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2414.77,"endTime":2420.86,"body":"think about your own personal longevity and the years and decades ahead?"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2420.86,"endTime":2427.08,"body":"And do you live your life in a way that is perhaps influenced by the the knowledge of of"},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2427.08,"endTime":2430.5,"body":"this product and the education that you've had that's made it possible."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2430.5,"endTime":2431.79,"body":"It's actually a very interesting question."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2431.79,"endTime":2436.29,"body":"There's a joke that we would we had, like a meme that we would pass around internally"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2436.29,"endTime":2439.7400000000002,"body":"when we were building the first version, which is like, it's this meme."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2439.7400000000002,"endTime":2443.07,"body":"I can send it to you later if you want to put it on the screen, but it's basically how"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2443.07,"endTime":2445.23,"body":"our customers look versus how we look."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2445.23,"endTime":2449.76,"body":"And the customers. It's like, you know, these like well-dressed, very healthy people."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2449.76,"endTime":2453.61,"body":"And we have like, you know, enormous bags under our eyes and, you know, our hair is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2453.61,"endTime":2457.51,"body":"frizzled and we're drinking a monster or whatever, you know, so building a startup is"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2457.51,"endTime":2461.14,"body":"like the opposite, you know, if you want longevity, it's not necessarily the best idea."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2461.14,"endTime":2463.57,"body":"I also have had two kids, you know, during the time of the startup."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2463.57,"endTime":2465.34,"body":"So it's been difficult to manage."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2465.34,"endTime":2469.09,"body":"But but I actually think that this is my second startup."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2469.09,"endTime":2472.93,"body":"And if I look at how I've been living my life while I do these blood tests frequently,"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2472.93,"endTime":2476.72,"body":"you know, I probably on a monthly basis at this point versus how I would be living if I"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2476.72,"endTime":2481.46,"body":"wasn't doing them. I will say that it's definitely modified my behavior and made me get a"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2481.46,"endTime":2484.55,"body":"lot more serious about, you know, what is this?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2484.55,"endTime":2485.69,"body":"You know, what am I going to look like?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2485.69,"endTime":2487.28,"body":"I think at my age, right."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2487.28,"endTime":2490.73,"body":"It's a little bit different. So it's really a bifurcation, like some people at this age"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2490.73,"endTime":2494.72,"body":"start to decline and other people actually get into the best shape of their life, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2494.72,"endTime":2498.56,"body":"know. So you'll see guys that like by 40 are like in the best shape of their life doing"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2498.56,"endTime":2502.05,"body":"whatever. So I'm trying. I'm like, okay, how do I go in that direction versus that"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2502.05,"endTime":2505.29,"body":"direction? So I haven't I'm still I would say fighting that battle."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2505.35,"endTime":2507.25,"body":"but but my hope so I've..."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2507.25,"endTime":2510.69,"body":"I can talk about this, but I, you know, implemented a bunch of things to try to improve"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2510.69,"endTime":2516.81,"body":"my markers. And also just because I'm so exposed to the whole longevity scene, try to"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2516.81,"endTime":2520.35,"body":"take the kind of like easiest things, like, I look for silver bullets because I just"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2520.35,"endTime":2522.51,"body":"don't have the time to implement everything, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2522.51,"endTime":2525.6,"body":"But like take the easiest things and try to implement them in my life."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2525.63,"endTime":2527.4,"body":"Yeah, all interesting points."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2527.4,"endTime":2531.6,"body":"And I'm certainly in the in the more data is better camp."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2531.6,"endTime":2534.09,"body":"And I think what you're doing is is really fascinating."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2534.09,"endTime":2536.16,"body":"I'm going to follow it with a huge amount of interest."},{"speaker":"Peter Bowes","startTime":2536.16,"endTime":2537.39,"body":"Michael, thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Michael Dubrovsky","startTime":2537.42,"endTime":2538.2,"body":"Thank you Peter."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2538.35,"endTime":2543.66,"body":"This podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2543.69,"endTime":2546.15,"body":"We do not offer medical advice."},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2546.18,"endTime":2551.52,"body":"If you have health concerns of any kind or you are considering adopting a new diet or"},{"speaker":"DISCLAIMER","startTime":2551.52,"endTime":2555.36,"body":"exercise regime, you should first consult your doctor."}]}