Links from the episode:
For more stories about real-world use of serverless technologies, please follow us on Twitter as @RealWorldSls and subscribe to this podcast.
To learn how to build production-ready serverless applications, check out my upcoming workshops.
Opening theme song:
Cheery Monday by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3495-cheery-monday
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
Links from the episode:
For more stories about real-world use of serverless technologies, please follow us on Twitter as @RealWorldSls and subscribe to this podcast.
To learn how to build production-ready serverless applications, check out my upcoming workshops.
Opening theme song:
Cheery Monday by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3495-cheery-monday
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
Yan Cui: 00:12
Hi, welcome back to another episode of Real World Serverless, a podcast where I speak with real world practitioners and get their stories from the trenches. Today, I'm joined by Kristi Prreault. Hey, Kristi, welcome to the show.
Kristi Prreault: 00:25
Hi, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here today.
Yan Cui: 00:29
And Kristi. So allow me to be the first one to say welcome to the Serverless Heroes program And congratulations. It’s quite an achievement for you to make it so quick.
Kristi Prreault: 00:39
Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm super excited to be part of the program. I was definitely definitely surprised, but super happy to be here.
Yan Cui: 00:47
So you've been working with Liberty Mutual for a while now. And the last couple of years, you've been fully focused on serverless. And for anyone who's not familiar with Liberty Mutual, maybe you can start by just doing a quick introduction about who Liberty Mutual is. And what is your role there? What do you do over there?
Kristi Prreault: 01:08
Yeah, sure. So Liberty Mutual is an insurance company, you may have seen our many commercials with the LiMu Emu. People ask me all the time to use the do the Liberty jingle, I will not do that on this call. I'll save you all from that. But we've been around for about almost 110 years now. So we're a pretty old company. We're also global. So we're in almost 30 different countries and economies worldwide. I've been with the company for about five years now. I actually started here right out of college. I did my internship here. So I've been here a couple years. I started kind of in the Java and microservices space, and have since kind of transitioned into the serverless space, so kind of fell into it by accident. I had a mentor kind of early on. And he was like, Hey, I think that you'd be really good in this, you'd really like it, you know, we've worked on some CloudFormation templates before, like we're starting up this serverless team, I think you should come over here and check it out. So I've pretty much been with the serverless group since the beginning of it here at Liberty, when we formed a serverless DevOps team. So that's where I've been working for the last I'd say two and a half years now. And we basically exist to support our 5000 or so engineers, to move to the cloud and to do so in a serverless first fashion. So you know, what I mean by that is, you know, we want to try to solution and embrace the idea of serverless first before we start exploring other avenues and other paths, obviously with the cloud preference, and then kind of work your way down the chain from there. So I do a number of different things. Everything from creating starter patterns repos for folks to utilise. We're mostly in AWS shop. So we're focused really heavily on AWS CDK and SAM, and some folks still in CloudFormation templates as well. But we do have a little bit of other tools and technologies here and there. The serverless frameworks is one of them. We have some folks on Terraform. But I would say most of our expertise is in the CDK space. So that's kind of where I've been working for the last couple of years.
Yan Cui: 03:14
Yeah, I've met some of your colleagues in Dublin a while back, and I've spoken with quite a few of them in the past. And of course, Matt Coulter was a guest of honour on Werner’s keynote last year at re:Invent. So obviously, there is quite a lot of the buzz around serverless and Liberty Mutual. And from what I've gathered, pretty much every team is using it to some degree. So I'm really super interested to hear about your take on CDK, how you guys are using it. But maybe before we get into that, because when we were speaking earlier, you talked about the fact that you got a really small team, and your team of four people have to basically build tools to support the 5000 developers in your in Liberty Mutual. So obviously, that's quite an interesting challenge that's going to come with that kind of ratio. So maybe we can go into some of the specific challenges that you face. I guess off the top of my head straightaway, you know, you've got this diverse set of teams working on different solutions, and also sounds like they don't use the same tools, at least not 100%. So how does that translate to impacts on your day to day job?
Kristi Prreault: 04:25
Yeah, sure. So it is definitely a challenge. You're right. There's only about four of us. And actually, our fourth team member is pretty new. We've only had her around for about two months now. So it was three before this. So we are growing. We're going in the right direction. But it definitely is a challenge. I mean, even think about logistical things like if somebody takes time off, it's very obvious that there's somebody missing. And in my case, I do a lot of speaking and I like to chat and go to conferences and stuff. So that definitely takes its toll on the team as well. And as you mentioned like we are we are pretty matual in the serverless space definitely. But there's definitely teams that aren't or are just starting their cloud journey and their serverless journey. So we are covering like a really wide range of expertise of knowledge of skill set. And that's one of the things that I speak to a lot when I, when I go around to conferences and stuff is that's a huge gap for us, this, this knowledge and trying to cover, you know, everybody that hasn't even heard of like AWS and CDK. And some of those things, all the way up to folks that are excited, as soon as a new announcement comes out at re:Invent and wants us to implement it day one when we're back kind of thing. So it's definitely a unique challenge. We rely a lot on cloud enablement, architects in different areas of our organisation to kind of help us along with some of those things. We do have quite a few, I would say serverless evangelists within our Liberty Mutual community that kind of helped with some of these things. But you're right, it's definitely a challenge. And it's something that we're trying to work towards. And you know, sometimes we have to look at our groups as a whole and say, you know, what's going to benefit the majority and right now, that's our focus on Well-Architected.
Yan Cui: 06:05
Okay. So when it comes to the Well-Architected framework, and I guess, the review process, Amazon has got this console thing where you can answer a bunch of questions, and they will suggest you some actions that you can take to make sure that you meet the various different pillars inside the Well-Architected framework. So what sort of things are you guys doing to sort of augment that and to basically apply that in your organisation so that you have some kind of consistent way to apply this review process to the different teams and I guess, the crucial points of their application development journey so that they don't just spend six months working on something and only realise at the end of the view that, oh, wait, we shouldn't be doing that, because that's not good practice when it comes to security.
Kristi Prreault: 06:54
Yep, so Well-Architected is definitely a hot topic for us this year, for sure. We're starting to actually push reviews as something that's mandatory that teams have to go through. And like I said, it is an interesting situation, because we do have folks that have been developing on serverless for a couple of years now. And maybe they have been working towards Well-Architected and they've been going through reviews on their own, maybe they haven't as much. And then you have folks that are new to serverless, and new to all of this. So they're coming in with Well-Architected in mind. So you have a couple of different kinds of key users and user personas that we're looking at. But for us, right now, we're finding that it's really difficult to go through a server, a Well-Architected review with all of the pillars quickly. So folks are taking, you know, several hours to discuss one pillar and to go through all of their applications and take a look at it. And sometimes that's even just one or two apps and not their entire ecosystem. So we're really looking at that and saying, Well, how can we cut this down so it's not a pain point for folks to go through and develop their applications in a Well-Architected manner. And some of what we're coming up with is kind of like a recommendation engine of sorts, to help consolidate all of our users and developers, applications and configuration data kind of in one spot so that they can see everything right there. And they're able to make informed decisions. We definitely don't want to automate the Well-Architected review process, because we're finding that teams are having a lot of really meaningful discussions around Well-Architected and they're learning a lot. So we don't want to replace those conversations. But we still want to make sure that we're cutting down on the time it takes to do all of these pillar reviews. And by consolidating some of their applications, and all of their cloud resources into one space, so that they can see everything and get some recommendations in terms of performance or cost, enhancements or reliability. They can easily make those decisions more quickly, instead of kind of digging through all their accounts, all their environments, trying to find all their applications and infer from those configurations. So that's kind of what we're focusing on right now. We're hoping to get this tool out in front of our developers this year, so that they have a chance to go through this process. And then they're not just relying on, you know, the few architects that we have across our entire organisation that are really well versed and Well-Architected and have done these reviews. Because that's the other thing we don't have a ton of subject matter experts that can go through and spend all this time with teams one on one, as I mentioned, because we have 5000 developers out there,
Yan Cui: 09:27
Across multiple countries and time zones as well. So that can’t be easy.
Kristi Prreault: 09:33
Yeah, globally. Yeah.
Yan Cui: 09:35
I guess I guess we're on the same topic of best practices and how to ensure them. And one of the ways I've seen companies do that is to kind of, rather than leaving until the review process, you kind of bake it into how you provision and create applications and that is where I think CDK can actually be quite powerful. My personal opinion of CDK is probably not that high. I mean, it's not my favourite tool, but definitely when it comes to talking with some enterprise customers, I do see the value that CDK brings that other frameworks probably just won't be able to provide easily, in that you can create all these pre-built constructs that gets kind of mandated to the rest of the teams. But those constructs follows organisational best practices that, for example, you don't want to ever have public S3 buckets, or your Lambda function needs to be inside an VPC. And constraints like that, rather than having to review the code as somebody writes, you can just bake them into your construct so that so long everyone is using the same construct, then you can apply best practices ahead of time, rather than trying to review them later. Is that the reason why you guys are really big on CDK, and why, you know, most of what you guys are doing is going through CDK?
Kristi Prreault: 10:49
That's definitely a huge part of it, I would say, you know, you hit on a lot of those things that obviously a very large insurance company is going to be secure. And we're going to want to do those things like VPC, Lambdas, locking down endpoints, you know, we're very concerned and conscious about authentication and authorization and security. We also, you know, in kind of along with that we don't have console access for our developers. There's some Read Only there. But we we have to use infrastructure as code. So the tool that comes up most frequently is CDK. Because we have a lot of developers that really prefer writing their constructs in their infrastructure in a coding language. So Python, or TypeScript are probably two of our biggest ones, definitely see some, some Java, a very small amount of Go, and some of those other languages that are a little more niche. So that's kind of a huge reason why I think CDK is is a big tool that we use here. Also, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we're huge on on AWS. So we have teams that are supporting Azure and GCP. But they're just not as mature as we are in the AWS space. So sticking to the AWS tools, tends to be something that that folks like, but yeah, building in the construct some of that Well-Architected, some of those best practices, some of those security things definitely helps us out a lot. And along those lines, you know, you mentioned a Matt Coulter speaking at re:Invent, and a lot of what he talked about was kind of this sort of catalogue of offerings and starter patterns that we use to get our developers started, you know, day one, it's really lowered the barrier to entry. So we've created a lot of those starter patterns with things like CDK that have that authentication, those best practices, a lot of those things baked in, and allows our community to create their own patterns and surface them within this catalogue of offerings, so that all all our developers can use that. And they're not completely reinventing the wheel. So, for instance, my team owns CDK Python and CDK TypeScript starter patterns. And I can tell you, we have had probably a couple 1000 projects generated just from those starter patterns. So they're definitely being used, folks are liking them, we're getting feedback on them that we continue to build off of, and keep these patterns updated as well. And we're even talking about, you know, including a sort of Well-Architected badge or a check or rating, you know, we have a rating system in a way, but to have a Well-Architected kind of check would be something that we'd want to implement on some of these patterns so that folks know that they are good and go forward. And they're starting at the best to kind of Well-Architected Best Practices right out of the box.
Yan Cui: 13:21
I think you mentioned there's something that the which have, which I always thought in spite of the shortcoming of this approach of using a general purpose programming language that you have to kind of duplicate a lot of the work when you've got an organisation that is not using, that's not all using one language. So I think right there, you mentioned that your team manages Python and TypeScript. But then there's also other languages that are being used that are more niche, or at least within your organisation. So how do you go about making sure that there's consistency across all the different languages that are being used and the starter pack that, that I targeted at those languages, especially when you've got a small team to have to support these on top of everything else that you're doing?
Kristi Prreault: 14:03
We definitely rely on our server lists community quite a bit for that. So we do have open Slack and teams channels for serverless, for AWS, CDK, for AWS in general. So we do encourage a lot of knowledge sharing in that aspect as well. Again, we just tend to preference the majority. So we kind of see what bubbles up from the community and focus on that as our support and our enablement. And that's been, you know, mostly Python and mostly TypeScript for AWS CDK. So like I said, there are definitely folks out there using serverless framework, using TerraForm ,using some of those things. And our kind of response just because we're such a small team and can't possibly help everyone is you can definitely use those things. Check it out, try it out. Let us know how it goes. But you know, you're kind of on your own. If you want to experiment with that and you want to try it out. Like you rely on the community channels knowledge share, you know, we're happy to help where we can, but we don't always have the time or the ability or the reach to do that. We're just finding that we have a lot of developers that really like like the coding languages, and then you know, CloudFormation templates, everything kind of sinks down to that too. So just having a basic understanding of that really helps. And we do see folks that are using just those or or a tool like SAM for YAML or JSON configuration, because that's just what some teams prefer. So it's an interesting balance to be at. Because, you know, in the DevOps space, we don't want to force certain tools and tech onto the developers. I, I'd rather see them come to us with the things that they like and what they need help with and what they want support with and what they want enabled. And then we can kind of work from there and build our priority and our backlog back off of our user feedback from our developers.
Yan Cui: 15:44
Okay, so instead of forcing the implementation details on the developers, do you instead just say to go into production you need to have X, Y, and Z? For example, your Lambda function needs to be inside of VPC, your S3 buckets have to be private, you know, you want to surface data, it has to be through CloudFront distribution, and just say, you know what, you guys have to meet this criteria. How you want to do that, it's up to you, you know, if you want to use CloudFormation, that's fine. But if you want to follow the Golden Path, this is the Golden Path that we provide for you as CDK constructs. Is that kind of the approach that you're using?
Kristi Prreault: 16:21
Yeah, that's exactly it. And kind of our way to check that is, instead of looking at all your developer tools, and folk and kind of forcing you into something is we're focused on the pipelines. So you know, you have to deploy through our pipelines to be out in the cloud. So we're focusing on building out things like SPI tools to integrate with those pipelines and our CI/CD process, so that we can catch you and flag you if you aren't doing those things. So that's kind of what what we tend to focus on more is, you know, we have a security process that goes through and does a number of checks. And if you're not passing those checks, we're not we're gonna prevent you from deploying, and then we'll point you to some documentation and say, hey, you know, you didn't add this IAM user or group or this permission, or you know, it's not a VPC but you know, some of those things are caught within our pipeline process. So we focus more on managing those rules, managing those checks and balances kind of within our pipelines so that the developer can use whatever tool they want. And we'll provide some tasks and some solutions out of the box for them that will pass those things if they choose to use those tools. If not, you're free to use whatever tool you want, you just got to make sure that you cover those checks that we document for you.
Yan Cui: 17:28
Okay, got it. That makes absolutely sense, you know, provide guardrails instead of being gatekeepers essentially. Exactly. Cool. Um, that yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's I think that's what a lot of good engineering organisations are doing. That's the approach that the old taking as well, which makes no sense. I guess, I want to maybe switch gears a little bit like we mentioned, you know, you were welcomed into the serverless heroes community recently. I guess, maybe talk about, what's your impression of the program so far? And what are you most looking forward to be able to do as part of this community?
Kristi Prreault: 18:02
Yeah, so it has only been a week, so I don't have too much first impressions quite yet, just kind of getting my feet wet coming off of the, the high of the announcement and everything coming out there, which is, which is cool to see. I love the support from from kind of everyone on social media and everything. I've had a lot of folks reach out. So thank you to everyone that's really welcomed me into this this new role, in this new kind of position. I'm just super excited to keep on doing what I've been doing. I love talking, clearly. I love being on podcasts and speaking at conferences. I do like talking a lot about what we're working on at Liberty and kind of where we're at. And I'm really big in the diversity and inclusion space. I mean, I've kind of jumped into this community straight from a grant that got me to re:Invent, which was a huge step up and something that I really appreciate. So, you know, I'm very big in the Women Who Code communities, the Women In Tech communities. So I love that. So I love having that ability and kind of adding to the diversity pool and the AWS Hero program as well. So I want to just keep pushing forward on a lot of those things. And you know, I'm excited to attend re:Invent again this year meets more folks. I know, last year was a little weird, it was still kind of a pandemic year. So it was huge, but it's much smaller scale than it normally is. So I'm interested to see how this year goes. But yeah, I'm just excited to keep going with with serverless content.
Yan Cui: 19:27
Yeah, it was definitely weird it's a mix of in person and sort of virtual because you never, I guess, as a virtual attendee never quite get a sense that you're getting the full experience compared to when you used to go in person. One question I've gotten quite a lot from people from the social media is how do I become a Serverless Heroe? What do I have to do? So what's your take on that? What was your journey that got you to be invited into the program?
Kristi Prreault: 19:53
Yeah, I think a lot of it is you know, I just say yes to everything and I like to live on the edge of my comfort zone. And always try to be vulnerable. You know, like, I think that a lot of people get tripped up with this idea of imposter syndrome, like, you know, especially in my Women In Tech communities, in some of those more diverse communities, they're like, oh, no, like, I can't possibly be an expert in this, I don't know, XYZ or, like, you know, why would they want to talk to me or like, you know, I'm not sure how to how to get there, or whatever. So I feel like I just kind of talk to people, you know, like, I just walk up to somebody, I'm like, Hey, how's it going? Like, I'm not afraid to kind of put myself out there and to just get to know people. And then it turns into those things like, Hey, you want to jump on my podcast? Hey, we think you'd be great for a conference. And you know, you kind of have to push those feelings of like, maybe doubt or uncertainty aside, or, you know, I know a lot of people have fears of public speaking, which I totally understand too. But, you know, I just kind of push it aside, and I'm like, Yeah, sure, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna do that. Like, you know, the worst that happens is I learned from my experiences, right? So I think that that's a huge part of it. So I just like to say yes to everything. Obviously, within limits. I can't have my whole calendar taken up all of the time. So I do the best I can to balance things out. But yeah, I just like that. And putting out I've done some blog posts and stuff, too. I mean, one of my most successful ones was on helping Women In Tech. And it was literally just because I had a nagging thought one night, and when I was laying in bed and grabbed my laptop and typed something up, and it just resonated with a lot of people. So I think we get stuck in our heads a lot sometimes. And just putting yourself out there and being vulnerable. I've never regretted that.
Yan Cui: 21:33
Yeah, I think oftentimes, we underestimate what we know, and probably overestimate what the experts or supposed experts know, because I think a lot of experts also just have lots of blind spots. Everyone's got the same amount of time. So there's only so much you can learn, right? So whatever they are really good at something means that they're probably quite weak on something else, which you may be quite strong at. And that's how we kind of complement each other. Even like myself, I've been working with AWS for so long that every day I have to google something that I forgot to do or haven't done before. And the thing is, is same with everybody I know who I look up to as experts in their particular domain that they have to get help from someone somewhere all the time.
Kristi Prreault: 22:14
Right. I mean, I think the same way to like, I mean, there's so much out there that you can't possibly know everything. I mean, I even like I like being transparent about those things, too. Like I think it helps a lot, even in the work environment and stuff to like when I'm mentoring folks and stuff. Like I'm going to be transparent about what I don't know, on a call like, Hey, that's a great question. I actually don't know the answer to it either. Let's google it together. You know, I think it helps people feel more comfortable. I mean, even the other day, I tweeted out like I'm a complete newbie, when it comes to serverless framework, like I might be considered a serverless expert, but it's in the things that I know, serverless really well. So like, I'm not afraid to tweet out and just be like, Hey, I'm totally new to this. What do you guys think that have used it? Like, you know, I share the knowledge, like, you know, I'm working my way there too. So I definitely agree with that sentiment.
Yan Cui: 22:59
You touched on your involvement with the Women In Tech organisation, or I guess, community a couple times now. Can you maybe tell us a bit more about what is the community about? What is the goal? And what are some of the things that the community is doing? And also, importantly, how can we support a community better?
Kristi Prreault: 23:16
Sure, yeah. So there's kind of two tracks to this, you know, I do a lot internally at my company, we have a lot of employee resource groups for diversity. I'm really involved in our Women In Tech group over there. And I actually do a lot of work with a group called LEGIT, which stands for Liberty Encouraging Girls in Tech. And you know, pre-pandemic, we actually went around to schools, maybe once a month or so. I've worked with kids, one on one in 8 through 12, teaching STEM and introducing it early and getting them excited about it. We're just starting to ramp up again, some more in person things, but we have switched to kind of a virtual model. I've done a lot of work in that space over there. And then externally, you know, I'm very involved with Women In Tech communities. One of the bigger ones is Women Who Code that is global. There's a lot of local chapters for folks to join, as well as specific groups for Python, for Cloud, for different programming languages, for different tech tools. So I've been very involved over there, they actually were the ones that kind of introduced me to conference speaking. So they were the first kind of group to accept one of my conference proposals and get my foot in the door. And there's been some really awesome folks as part of that. And a lot of people coming out of boot camps, a lot of people that have been retooled, and are coming from non traditional paths in the programming. So I've done a lot with them as well, I think in terms of, you know, where everyone can help. Some of the gaps that I'm noticing specifically in cloud and serverless is one of the things it's not taught at academic levels at all, they kind of just teach you the basics, and you kind of decide, well, maybe I want to do front end and maybe I want to do back end, maybe I want to do security, but I don't think people realise that things like DevOps, that cloud that serverless those kinds of things are a path. I'm noticing in a lot of these communities that are diverse. They're coming from booth camps, they are coming from non traditional paths. And they're not being taught in those things either. You know, it's kind of like a six week to six months crash course on basics of tech. And they don't necessarily know that these are all paths forward. I know that because somebody brought me into it. So I encourage, you know, people to kind of do that and to recognise folks that are in the community that that might be interested or might do really well in a space like this. So I think education is a huge gap. And just, you know, asking around, I think, like, I didn't know what my capabilities were until somebody pointed out sometimes, right? Like, hey, I think you'd be great if you spoke on this, or hey, I really liked this article you wrote, or I'm curious about this, you know, you seem to have a lot of expertise in it, could you send me something on it? You know, I'm I, one of the articles I've written about how to kind of support Women In Tech, one of the biggest things on there was to reach out to those folks and ask what they need, or, you know, recommend them for things. Because sometimes, you know, we're, again, not confident in our abilities, or think we're not experts when we really are kind of thing though, that that goes a long way.
Yan Cui: 26:03
Okay, so you can share with me that the article you've written, I can also include in the show notes, so that everyone knows can can go there and see how else we can help the community get bigger and get more traction as well, definitely, I've known a few friends who are involved the community as well. And over here in the Netherlands, and also when I was in the UK, there was quite active communities around it. But I always thought that the community is still kind of on the fringe. And there could be more active engagement from say, the organisations I worked in the past in a more official role. You said something like that. So you mentioned that the LEGIT program. How can say someone who's listening to the podcast today, kind of get their managers to, to think about what can they do to sort of replicate the LEGIT program in their organisations?
Kristi Prreault: 26:47
Yeah, that's a great question. And something that I've kind of been wanting to share out and work with folks on. But yeah, I mean, we started pretty small. We've been around for about six or seven years, our program has. We actually started out of the sea coast of New Hampshire. And honestly, like, it worked as an internal network, right. Like you think about it, a lot of people, you work with are parents, and they have kids in school systems. So you can even just start there. Like, you know, if you have a small group of folks that says, like, hey, like, you know, once a month, we want to go out and do like a workshop with these kids for like an hour, it's pretty easy to do. And in some cases, it's really like, doesn't even involve a cost, we use like Hour of Code, as one of the tools that we use, it's free. And you can set up kids on their computers. Most schools have some sort of laptop system or computer lab that you can kind of go in and work with them. And just, you know, say we're going to do this activity, pick one out and you walk around and help the students out. We've done that, if you have a little bit more of a budget, we've done like things like micro bit activities, which are just little like, kind of hardware things that they can play with. So it's super easy to get started if you don't have a budget and just a small group of people that want to help out. I definitely say reach out to parents, family, school systems, we've worked with things like Boys and Girls Club, YMCA, Project Lead The Way. There is another big one that we've worked with. So there's a lot of communities out there that are looking for volunteers and looking for help. Now we've partnered with Girls Who Code in the past partnered with other groups. So there are a lot of free resources out there. And most schools and companies are looking to have industry experts come in, and honestly students love it too. So I just recommend, you know, start small and see where it goes from there.
Yan Cui: 28:28
That's always a good advice. Always start small and then go from there. Okay, so that's, I think that's all the questions I've had. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention before we go, things like when's your next speaking engagements for instance?
Kristi Prreault: 28:42
Yeah. So actually, on the same track, I will be moderating a panel on impostor syndrome and the importance of allies at the Women Impact Tech conference out of Denver in July. Otherwise, I've got more webinars speaking events coming up. I'll be speaking virtually, or the Denver group out of it, AWS user group out of Denver in the next week actually. So that will, that will be a recording if you miss it. It'll definitely come out, as well as I organise the Serverless Denver chapter. And we are planning our next event. So hopefully, for the end of June, I will keep everybody posted on that. If you're not following our Twitter page, make sure you do. Otherwise, I will be tweeting out and sharing when our next event is and you can check us out on meetup.
Yan Cui: 29:31
Okay, I'll put the Twitter handle for the Serverless Denver group on the show notes as well. So for anyone else who's in the area, please go and check it out. So Kristi, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. And wish you all the best of luck and hopefully maybe see you in person at the re:Invent of soon.
Kristi Prreault: 29:50
Awesome. Yeah, thank you for having me today. It was It was nice meeting you and chatting with you.
Yan Cui: 29:54
Take care. OK. Bye bye.
Yan Cui: 30:09
So that's it for another episode of Real World Serverless. To access the show notes, please go to realworldserverless.com. If you want to learn how to build production-ready serverless applications, please check out my upcoming courses at productionreadyserverless.com. And I'll see you guys next time.