Resiliency Rounds
This is a philosophy podcast on the Self, community, and humanity from the standpoint of ethical philosophy. The mission is to develop authentic resiliency that comes from the pursuit of the Common Good. The focus is Life, examined and well-lived.
Resiliency Rounds
Episode 54: Nicomachean Ethics Book II-1: The Ethical Agent
Right, welcome everybody to resiliency rounds. This is resiliency rounds with Anish and Jeremy, and this is uh Aristotle's Nicomachian Ethics, Book Two, and we are going to try and see if we can cover the whole thing in one fair swoop, but it might not be possible. We see how far we we get along uh in the book. Just to give everybody a little bit of a prelude. So we started with book one, and when Aristotle laid some ground rules down, one of the ground rules he put down was you know, who is the intended audience? And so the intended audience are those who are seeking knowledge and they are willing to learn from someone who has the knowledge, and that person in this case is Aristotle himself, according to Aristotle. Now, from our perspective, we agreed that we are going to read the book and uh and try not to be critiques, we're gonna try to uh agree with Aristotle as much as we can, and also we also uh agreed that it's hard to disagree with Aristotle given his uh you know just his uh his abilities as acumen intellect. Uh, he is the forefather of thought. Uh, but so what we so it be makes it makes it easier for us to kind of agree with some of his arguments, but it's good to have some skepticism, that's one. Uh, second thing is that we should not get too caught up in the specifics. Some of these discussions uh they go lead they lead astray if you are sticking to the specifics. And so you've got to be a little bit general, and it's other places you've got to be specific, and so it's a little bit of a of a dance, a delicate dance that you have to do. That's the other one. Uh, so those are the ground rules. Uh, and then he starts off with in the in book one saying why are we doing any of this? And and from in his perspective, uh, it is because we're all seeking uh something, and for humans, any rational beings that beings that can differentiate between good and bad are seeking for good things, and uh the end of all ends is uh happiness. The the the the biggest greatest good that a rational being can can aim for is happiness with a capital H, which is which consists of many small H happinesses and many many small G goods. And in order to achieve capital H happiness, one has to be on the path of virtue that is right action, and so that's where book one ends, and so then he goes into what these virtues are, and he tries to give his definition of of uh what these virtues um can look like in the sphere of uh human um uh emotion, uh human uh uh action, and just you know, human life in general. So so that's so that's the prelude up till now. Jeremy, I'm gonna uh ask you to lead us off now with uh your thoughts on uh book two, and then I'll fill in.
SPEAKER_05:Sure. So um so he starts right at the very beginning with um starting to define virtue and how to how to look at virtue as either um uh moral virtues or or intellectual virtues, right? And so I think we could spend a little time just defining or you know explaining what he means by moral virtue versus uh an intellectual virtues, and then and then we get into talking about um there's a continuum, right? And and we can talk about the mean and and where people fall in and virtue is somewhere between extremes, and so we can talk about what that looks like. Um but so I'll start with moral virtue, right? So moral virtues um are things like uh courage, generosity, um temperance, and moral virtues are something that uh could be the result of of habit, right? So it takes practice, it's not something that you're just born with.
SPEAKER_00:Is that fair and yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, well, yeah, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I love the debate of nurture versus nature. Um and and I uh you know I I tend to agree that I think these are things that you can absolutely learn and grow. And um, maybe for some it's easier, but I also think um I think that the environment that you're around has an impact on the choices you make and the habits you create.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The the way he says the way he he makes the point of this is that uh intellectual virtue is something that you one acquires through study and through experience. One is not born with it. And I and I I believe the intellectual virtue, you know, when he says it's learned, what that means is through experience, and that is practical wisdom, is what he's talking about. The moral virtue that he's talking about is something that one is not necessarily born with an understanding of what moral virtues are, but one has as a rational being, one has the basic toolkit to be able to build these moral virtues, and so they are not innate in the sense that one is born with a set of models and ethics, but the ability to develop those models and ethics are innate to a rational being, and and the and the way one then goes from having the ability to to to be moral or have moral virtue is by practicing those acts. And the it's it there is a little bit of a yin and yang kind of thing here. I see a you know a flavor of of uh Taoism here where one has to in order to be just temperate, courageous, one has to do just temperate and courageous acts. And by doing just, temperate, and courageous acts, one becomes a just person, and a just sorry, a virtuous person, and a virtuous person is one who does just temperate and courageous acts, so it becomes like a circle. So, you know, you where do you start in this circle? When is it that you can say that you are a virtuous person? And he does explain this later on, and he does a pretty good job getting us there logically, right? Uh, what did you think about that? Did you get the learn and then do and then do goes into learn again? Did you get that cycle?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's like a feedback loop, right? So do, then learn, learn and do. And um, yeah, and so like intellectual virtues is is wisdom over time, right? And it's something that that you learn, it's teachings, it's it's expanding perspective. Um, so I I I like how you how you differentiate between the two. Um and uh and the habits, so if you all right, so for for moral virtues, yeah, I think you you mentioned this. I just want to point out it's not doing it once, it's actually the act of doing it many times over and over again, right? So if you do if you do a courageous act one time, that doesn't make you courageous, you know, on a long on a grander scale.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right. And also doing it and so yeah, there's another thing that um we should uh we should underscore is that moral virtues in in in his definition has to do with pleasure and pain. And uh the uh the these these virtues, it is in fact harder to do the right thing, and it is usually painful to do the right thing. But if you're doing the right thing and you are pained by doing the right thing, that is not necessarily a virtuous thing or the right thing to do for you. You see what I mean is that one cannot say that I'm a courageous person while they're performing a courageous act, they actually don't like the feeling that they get of performing the act. And so there is a little bit of that pleasure and pain dynamic that he brings in as well. But he does say that this ability to understand that this act is a courageous act, or this is what a temperate person should be, or this is a just act, it takes some amount of practical wisdom. That practical wisdom is learned through uh participating in life by participating and performing all of these acts and figuring out what is and what is not virtuous, uh, what is and what is not uh painful or pleasure or pleasureful. And that the that process though of learning and doing and learning and doing should start really early. But one cannot say that a kid is or a child or a young man is virtuous in their in in their deeds. Because in order to understand to become a virtuous person, it takes practical wisdom. Practical wisdom requires several cycles of iteration and really coming to understand whether these acts that you're doing are in line with what a just or a courageous person or a temperate person would do. So, but it is strange because there are two different aspects here. One is the self-driven aspect to this, right? When one looks in the middle, when Anisha is looking in the mirror, and Anish is asking, Anisha, are you a just person? Are you a temperate or a courageous person? That's a whole different journey than if I'm looking at Jeremy and I'm saying, hey, is Jeremy a just person? Is Jeremy a courageous person, right? Those are two very different things. Now, in Aristotle's case, which is very different from what Plato says in the Republic, it's all about the personal journey. It's got nothing to do with anybody else. You know, it doesn't, as a matter of fact, the whole argument in the in the republic is if nobody believes you to be a just person, but you are, you are, you know you are a just person, would you be happy? And it turns out that Socrates proves that that's the case. It's got nothing to do with anybody else. As a matter of fact, if you are unjust inside and everybody believes you to be just, you know, that you will be an unhappy person. And that's usually not what conventional wisdom says, right? Conventional wisdom says, you know, who cares if everybody thinks you're a good person, then you will reap the benefits of that. But unfortunately, you'll you'll be eaten up hollow on the inside. Aristotle is trying to take a ground where he's being more practical. He's saying, yes, there's a journey of you, an individual aspect to this, but there's also the aspect of one trying to be uh a political creature, trying to influence others, trying to lead nations, trying to uh have conversations that are bigger than them. And that situation is important how you're perceived as well. So um so the acts that one performs is relative. Sorry, the the the moral or the ethical or the virtual or not virtual, the virtuous act that one performs is relative to one's own inner feelings and is also relative to what a virtuous person would perform. You can measure yourself up against a virtuous person and say, I've, you know, the act I've done, it doesn't make, does it add up? Does it make, does it compare to this other virtuous person? Similarly, someone could look at you and you could say, This act that this person performed, is it just a virtuous act or not, based on their understanding of what a just person should do? And and you see, it gets really hard to control the narrative when it is outside or external to you. I read these books mostly thinking about it from a self-improvement perspective, really. Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I don't know if you got that feeling or not. This is like a feeling that I I kind of I get, you know, these are lecture series, right? So he's trying to deliver this to somebody and expecting them to kind of improve themselves, but he's also giving it to people who will be judged on a on a public level. So right.
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, I think that there's a key theme that sticks out for me, stands out for me, which is individual differences. So we all have our own uniqueness. And then we all the the definition of virtue, then by nature, is is different based on your view, Aniche, or in my view, right? If I'm uncomfortable doing something that you're doing that is virtuous, that's not my that that's not virtuous for me, but it might be for you, right? So it's a great, it's a great concept. And I think when you start to think too about the kind of bigger picture, is you know, this idea of nature versus nurture that we start with is you know, thinking about modern day or back then, the you know, talking about bigger picture political, like running, you know, running communities and cities and governments, and well, that person's not virtuous, then it creates a culture that is potentially not virtuous, that impacts so how do people learn then to be virtuous in an environment that is not uh conducive for that?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right. It is it's interesting if if one is trying to look around in their society or in what's going what's going on conventionally, and then trying to make up their mind about what is good and what is evil, then you're you're right. What happens in that situation is one could easily get led astray. One could very easily find themselves participating in some sort of genocide, you know, just because you just look around you conventionally and say, oh, you know, the these people, according to the the government, according to the authority, these people are not good people. And so whatever is happening to them, you know, they are they're subhuman, you know, and they they deserve this. As a matter of fact, you lose the they in your mind they lose humanity. They're not hum, they're not human, they've done something wrong, and that's why they're they get this injustice is you don't believe it's injustice that's being vetted out to them, you believe it's justice because you you tie into the the the conventional, what's going on, right? That's what ends up happening mostly. You can see that that's what probably happened in Nazi Germany, right?
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. The uh the banality of evil, the banality of evil, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:Now you had mentioned that before. That's exactly and I and I've I I and that's why I think it's important to understand that this is a personal journey because because if one participates in the great conversation, right? If one has read the republic, one understands what is it, what does it mean to be virtuous, you know? If you're gonna use a paragon of virtue like Socrates, and you're gonna compare everybody, you're gonna compare yourself to Socrates, you can say, What will Socrates do in this situation, right? And you can ask yourself that, and then you can decide whether you should probably do that or not do that, rather than saying, you know, what would this you know candidate who's standing for elections do? Right. You see, so this gives you an opportunity to compare, and it's not about comparing the the candidate in front of you to Socrates. I mean, that's not what this is about. This is comparing yourself to Socrates and saying, you know, where are you aligned? And then and so so in my mind, I always ask myself, so what would Socrates do? Is a great way to think about this, right?
SPEAKER_05:So you're using Socrates as the baseline.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right, is uh yeah, it you see how that that works, right? You could use there are there are individuals in in history that have exemplified this the the the the pursuit of virtue, absolutely, right? And uh it is in that situation, it gets easier to compare ourselves to them. Uh and then and also and oh and say it's not even that, right? It's also about when you're on the path and you're seeking this difference, you're trying to figure out in your rational principle, your apex principle, you're trying to build the ability to differentiate between good and evil. You're constantly asking yourself, you know, you're constantly questioning what you see around yourself, you're constantly worried in about that. What maybe the way you think about something is just your opinion, and that opinion is maybe not even true opinion, it's not the truth. We don't know what the truth is, but it may be not even true opinion, it's false opinion, and you could be led astray. So if you keep questioning that, right, then you are less likely to be led astray by somebody else in society, if you're in and or by the the undertone in in society. So I think a lot of moral virtue comes from choosing the right yardstick. Yes, it is it is relative to you, but that relativity is not a relativity in the sense that um that one could say that I can only do this level of, you know, I can I can exemplify this level of courage, or I can show this level of justice, this level of temperance, given my social situation, given my place in society. And then and and and whatever bar is met, you say, Well, that's a high bar, and I have met that bar and I'm a just tempered and courageous person. Well, well, you'll be leading yourself astray because all you will have to ask yourself, has there been another individual who's shown a higher level of courage, higher level of temperance and justice, and paid an ultimate price? Right? If that is the case, then and you haven't met that bar, well, you still have a lot of learning to do. You see what I mean? Now that is that still that that means you still have to practice the act. You keep doing the acts and build your character. And while you're doing those things, you will at some point come to understand that you will take pleasure in the fact that you're doing things that are harder. Those things have consequences, but those things are leading you to the path of justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom. And at some point you do turn into that individual that you have been idealizing, and you do that for someone else. Someone else looks at you and says, You know what? I want to be Jeremy, because Jeremy exemplifies justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom. But Jeremy doesn't idealize himself as that. Jeremy looks at Socrates and says, You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_05:But Jeremy's still working on it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Jeremy's always working on it.
SPEAKER_05:You're always working on it. Once you've never arrived, you just you're always questioning that. And so you do become that person over time to someone else.
SPEAKER_00:Someone else. Yes. But that is not the intent. What happens is if you if you start seeing, you know, am I being perceived as a just person or not? If you're if you're honor seeking, if you know, then that becomes a problem. You're you if you're wisdom seeking, then you really don't care about what someone else thinks about you. You're always on the path. And guess what? Being on that path is what leads to happiness, right? We discussed this in the last episode, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:It is the you're always on the path of virtue. You never set step aside, saying that I've arrived. There's no arriving. Right. And if you're constantly on that path, no matter where you are in your journey, no matter what befalls you, you can you you're able to you're able to deal with whatever befalls you better because you're always seeking. And and so you have a higher chance of achieving a higher state of happiness than if you step off the path at any time or say my journey's ended.
SPEAKER_05:Right. You know, and what's interesting about that, there's a lot of well, a few thoughts, but but happiness doesn't come easily. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, you're constantly challenging yourself to say, well, all right, I I feel like I was just in this scenario, or oh, you know, or I've been doing all these actions and this is where my bar was, but but now I'm not there. Like I need to now challenge myself to be even more virtuous and and more courageous and and more generous, and so so it's just it's just an interesting thought, right? I mean, how you're happy you're happy living this life, but it's also very challenging, very complex.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And isn't there beauty in that? Because there is as you do these acts, doing these acts is hard. As you do them, they get easier. As they get easier, you do you you step up the game, you do, you do, you take it to another level, and that level is hard, and then it gets easier, then it gets hard again, it gets easier. There is you can never master any of these. You can never master courage or master temperance or master justice. You know, there's always levels of this that are beyond, and there is a sort of and that's the beautiful game. Like you, it's a complex problem that you'll never be able to completely solve. And that is a life well lived.
SPEAKER_02:That is a life well lived, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Right? As of as opposed to keeping like this very low bar and stepping over that bar every so often and saying, you know what, yeah, yeah, I donate. You know, I I you know, I send some money here and there, or whatever, you know, I participate my local charity or whatever, and then that I'm a good, just and temperate person. Like, as opposed to you keep challenging yourself, it gets easier, and you derive more pleasure from it as time goes on. You see what I mean? Yeah, that trajectory is a very different trajectory.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. So I this whole idea of self-development and a kind of it's a the individual self kind of learning through this process. Uh, what I love about it is in order to do this, it requires constant inquiry. You're always assessing where you are and what you're doing. And so there's always self-reflection and and asking yourself, you know, and um and maybe asking others.
SPEAKER_00:Uh very well said, right? And I and not just sometimes the asking could be reading. You know, it could be this. Yeah. Right? When you read, you you ask yourself, are you hold are you keeping up with those standards that are that are laid down? And um and and and you and you can compare yourself to the acts that others have done ahead of you, you know, who who you believe are honorable people, and you can now compare your acts to them. That's an ongoing conversation. That's it. That very well said, I agree. That that path of self-development is um is never ending. It's also not a competition. If there is a competition, it's only with oneself. One gets to look at one where one was and now where one has come. Um yeah, I I think that's uh very well said. I I agree. Um so what did you think about that aspect that he says uh he draws a distinction? He says, just because, and you said this too, that just because someone does a courageous act, this is just once, or someone is forced by someone else to do a courageous act, right? Is that person a courageous person?
SPEAKER_05:And he uh Aristotle would say no, yeah, and I and I would agree.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I thought, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:You know, so doing the right thing once in a while is is good to your point, but but it's the continuous act in in process of of reflecting on it. Um in how I mean how many of us in our day-to-day or ever actually have this conversation of for me today, Jeremy, what is what are my you know, am I being virtuous? And where where does that fall? Am I comparing myself to Anish or am I comparing myself to Socrates? Or you know, what would Socrates do? I haven't asked myself that question before. That would be a really interesting question for me to go through. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, isn't that true? And then, you know, saying again, like, you know, yes, you can do it on a daily level. There are opportunities to exercise virtue on a daily level. Uh sorry, on a daily basis at basis at every level. Um I do believe that most of our conventional lives, the way they are right now, the opportunities are not as abundant as one would like to believe. Um, and so one has to actually go out into the world and find spheres where one can exercise virtue, otherwise, one can get very easily caught up in performing very small, small V virtuous acts as opposed to larger V virtuous acts. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm trying to say is that you have to start somewhere. It's the learn and do, and and that cycle has to start somewhere. It's good to start, but to your point, it has to be continuous. You have to also reflect on it, right? And it has to be a choice. Like if you put it this way. Say you're sitting at home, right? And you know, your your wife says, hey, listen, or you know, your spouse or your your kids or someone says, Hey, uh, let's go participate in this particular fundraiser or whatever, right? In your mind, you're going, man, I would I I could care less. I'd rather be sitting and watching football or whatever it is, right? And you drag yourself off the couch and you do it and you're miserable while you're doing it, you know, and you come back and you sit in your chair and you go, Man, what the heck? Now, yes, you did a good act. Uh, you did it, but you you did it hesitantly. You didn't think it did while you were doing it, that it is in fact participating in something greater than yourself. And when it got done, you're like, I don't know if I'll ever do it again. Like, you know, it never felt that good, it didn't feel that good. That is not necessarily an act that you could check off the box saying, you know what, this was in fact a good thing that I did, from the standpoint of if you're really trying to build virtue, one has to there are some there are some qualifiers that Aristotle lays out for the agent. The qualifiers are one has to have knowledge. What I mean is knowledge of what is in fact virtue, what is justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom? What does it mean? Can you can you describe to me? Um, you know, can you can you not describe to me, but describe to you to yourself like what they are? Can you write them down? So that's knowledge, not only of virtue, but can you also do you have knowledge of who a virtuous person is, who a just temperate, just temperate, courageous, and wise person is? Do you have knowledge of those things? Then do you choose? Do you choose to perform this or not? And what choice is a choice? Is a very strange thing. It's because a lot of it focuses on free will. Um, and I think there's there's something that we should discuss here about choice. You know, do how much choice do we really have in this matter? But if we believe free will exists, you have a contingent free will or not, or whatever, you know, given the opportunity, you have we discussed the Maslow's uh hierarchy of needs, you're somebody who has come to a point where you know you have all the trappings of your conventional life, including your physical physical philosophical need, sorry, physiologic needs, um, you know, love, security, you have a job and all of that. Now you're in a position where you could make a choice to self-actualize and and and and you transcend. So if you get there, you have the knowledge, you you can you can choose and you choose the action not for anything else, but for the action itself without secondary gain. It's not like I'm doing this because someone, because Jeremy would say, Oh, niche, you know, you're a you're a virtuous guy, or you know, so let me felicitate you for that. Like that's secondary gain. I'm gonna get money out of it, or I'm gonna get elected to office, or whatever be that thing. And not only that, uh, you also have to do it. It's not it good enough to do it just once, you have to do it consistently. So one has to have knowledge of what is justice, temperance, courage, courage, and wisdom, who is uh a virtuous agent or the right agent that you would follow, who's the paragon of that? You need to have you need to have chosen to do this by choice without secondary gain and consistently. Because you could perform an action without these qualifiers, but you would not be a virtuous person. You see what I mean? What do you what do you think about that? Like uh because because there is something to be said about a person like that too, which I I think you know most of us are in that situation where we don't have all of these prerequisite qualifications. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you know the that we have no chance. Um so before I move ahead, I want to get your thoughts on those uh prerequisites knowledge, choice, secondary gain, consistency.
SPEAKER_05:Well, you it makes sense to me. And I'm wondering, you know, is that if someone had all those prerequisites, is the virtuous person selfless?
SPEAKER_01:Is that that's a great question. Because what is being selfless, right? Again, is yeah, nice uh Debbie, what do you think?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I I think so. I also, you know, it so I'm I'm holding this this idea of selflessness here because that's what I'm hearing from those prerequisites. And I'm also hearing, you know, that the virtuous person is that the other question then is is that a leader? And is it a servant leader? I mean these are these are you know I'm looking at the prerequisites to go into here, and that those are kind of the themes that stand out to me of like, well, what does that actually mean then to have the knowledge, know who the right agent is to compare yourself to without secondary gain, be consistently doing these, you know, these behaviors or these acts. Then without secondary gain, I think is where I'm coming up primarily with the selflessness, right? I mean, you're you're not doing it for yourself.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, you know that one is uh is very interesting. Uh, because I do believe if you if one agrees with the first premise that every rational agent is trying to seek something, and that something at the end of the day is capital H happiness, but it's capital H happiness for themselves.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So then if everything you do, you do for capital H happiness for oneself, then is it really a selfless act, right? Um, but I think there are that I think there are levels to secondary gain. I think every act is a selfish act, but of all the reasons why one could be selfish, if a selfish act leads to capital H happiness, that means you're looking for the a virtuous end, that means you are exercising your your performing action to affect the capital G good, universal good, good for everybody else. You're performing an act that that is to the benefit of everybody else. The only thing you get out of it is the sense of purpose, the sense of having participated in the act. You see what I mean? Of all the secondary gains, that is the probably the highest level of gain that one can have. What I mean by highest level in the sense the most elevated level. There is there is nothing else in there that is conventional in any way, shape, or form. So maybe maybe the secondary gain here is more conventional secondary gain, like honor, uh, wealth, uh power, uh influence, uh, you know, or or or something as silly as you know, even you know, pleasure and things like that. Uh but in the lack of that, and I I think that's what that's what I believe the secondary gain here is, because there is a there is a gain, and the gain is like I said, capital H happiness, which I think is a is at a different level. Yeah. Now, to your point, well, whether this person is a leader or not, I don't know, um, Jeremy, because this person could be anybody. None of these are visible are visible to you or me. Right? Our neighbor could be this virtuous agent.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You wouldn't know.
SPEAKER_02:You wouldn't know. Yeah.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Because it depends upon the sphere of action, right? Um, yeah. Yeah. And so if one is not involved in that sphere of action, one would not know who the who the agent is. Um right? Right. So, but could it be a leader? Should it the question actually you're asking, I think you're asking Aristotle's question. Should leaders be virtuous agents? Oh, yeah. I think that's what you're asking.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think they yeah, I think it's leading by saying, is a good leader virtuous versus the question of should a leader be virtuous?
SPEAKER_00:Correct. Yeah, correct. Yeah, correct. Uh, because leaders come in all shapes and sizes, and you get one doesn't get to really choose. How do you how does one know? Right. Right? So there are um there is a um uh Plutarch was a Roman um was a biographer in a sense. So he wrote a lot of these biographies of all these uh famous Roman, uh you know, at the time of Roman Rome's great, you know, greatness, and the Romans were heavily influenced by the Greeks and the Greek philosophy. And so he created these biographies that are fictitious biographies of the person who uh struck who um uh founded Sparta, and the person who founded Rome. So there's Lycurgus versus Numa. Lycurgus is the fictitious general, I think he is, who formed Sparta, and Numa is this fictitious uh uh aristocrat who founded Rome, and both of them knew in their minds that they were virtuous agents, they were on the path of virtue, but um but the difference between the two was Lycurgus felt that because of his higher calling, he needed to form the state of Sparta, and he actively participated in it. Numa had to be forced to do it, and the reason why Numa ends up, he was asked by uh a group of people to come to lead the formation of Rome, and he initially said no, but then eventually convinced himself, saying that um that yes, this is going to be time consuming, it's going to be hard, it's going to be, it's going to take me take away from my peace and you know happiness that I've built for myself. But I would not be able to live myself with myself if someone who is less of a virtuous agent than me leads to the formation of Rome, because that would undermine the common good. And uh, and there is a as you read the two bios, so the two biographies are in contrast to one another. It is written that way, in contrast with one another, to see what happens to Lycurgus and then what happens to Numa. But the the point here is that it is one could create a fictional biography of the virtuous agent. In real life, what ends up happening is uh virtuous agents uh are assassinated. Right. Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, they are a threat.
SPEAKER_00:They are a threat, too conventional case.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I yeah, sorry, so modern day example though, in uh is just the movie Gladiator, right? Maximus Aurelius is being asked to bring Rome back to the people, and he doesn't want to do it, and yet he needs to do it, and what happens, you know, attempted assassination, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. So that the the like if you look at even if you look at more recently, right, like that's what ends up happening. So Martha Gandhi assassinated, Martin Luther King assassinated, right? Socrates put to death, right? Right. Um, so this is these are all these are all examples of uh society doesn't know what to do with people like this. They're scared of people who are able to uh carry these, um you know, who are virtuous agents. And so Denison Mandela is a great example of somebody who you know not only survived but ended up you know taking on power, relinquishing power, and then dying peacefully. Very few examples like that. Yeah. Uh so to your point, yes. Should there be leaders? Yes, but you know, they the all the unfortunately the world doesn't work like that.
SPEAKER_05:That's right. Um well, and so that's actually and I'll I'll segue then into this idea of of um pain and pleasure, yeah. Right? And then you're that a virtuous person takes pleasure in good actions is is the concept that uh that Aristotle's talking about, but but along those lines the non-virtuous person, I would argue, is experiencing pleasure from the bad acts.
SPEAKER_01:From bad, yes, right.
SPEAKER_05:And the virtuous person is would not experience pleasure, but then now we're looking at you know our society today, and is it dopamine hits? Is that right? Like, you know, there's a lot of dopamine hits we get from things we shouldn't be doing that are not virtuous, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, you know, the counter, I don't know if the counter is necessarily true or not. I think there are some acts that are just inherently pleasurable, but they may not necessarily be virtuous acts. But I think being uh being just a human, be so um so he talks about this. Okay, it's a good point. He talks about this, right? Like the the um the the he kind of dissects the human brain in a way. He says there's a part of us that is uh that it is um it's kind of a base level, which is um, I think he does this in maybe chapter one. I don't know if he went over this or not, but he says that there are some things that humans share in common with all beings, that is the the physiologic function functions, growth, nutrition, things like that. You don't control it, and just because you have it doesn't make you a good person or a bad person. Um, and then uh there is then there is that there are certain things that one that uh like eating, drinking, participating in uh in activities of daily living. Well, you share that with horses and dogs, and that doesn't necessarily make you anything greater doing those things. Um, and that is for a lot of people most of our lives, actually, right? So then what is what separates you? So it's the rational principle, the one that one that you know you could um that you could choose to do or not do pay painful or dis or uncomfortable things just because you want to transcend to another level. Now that is the rational principle, but that part of your mind that allows you to act outside of the sphere of what is being driven by necessity, by um by your um um, you know, by what's the term for it? By just the traits of being like an animal, right? Beyond nutrition, beyond urges, like that part of it uh that you control, quote unquote, has two levels. One part that's subservient to the other part, and that part that's subservient to the other part is is the one that is a pleasure-seeking element. Now one can sit and say, you know what, I'm not hungry, but I want to eat the donut. I just like eating donuts. Like I just like the sweet taste of donuts, right? That the and then there's a principle that says you no, no, no, no, you shouldn't be doing that. If you do that, you're gonna get heart disease, right? So that so then the other, then the part that says I want to eat the donut says, you know what? Yeah, forget it. I'm not gonna have the donut. I'm gonna skip a donut for today, right? So there's a part that's subservient to that. So there's a rational principle that knows eating donuts is bad. There's a part that wants to be donuts because it feels good, and so there's that relationship, right? And so the to to come back to the point that you made, that I do believe that um that there are certain acts that one does, like you know, this is a very silly, a pithy example of eating a donut. But even if you're a very just or virtuous, courageous person, eating donut feels good.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. And it's not that eating a donut makes you feel bad. And if you if you deny yourself a donut and you're craving a donut, well, guess what? Then you're not a temperate person. You see what I mean? Even temperance should be performed in moderation, you know. So it is it's okay. There are certain acts that really don't make one virtuous or not virtuous. There's some acts that you just do, you know, you don't have to sit and worry about if you cannot sit and think about every act that you do. Oh, is this a courageous act? Is this just act? Eat a donut, man. You know, don't but there are other spheres in life where one needs to act. So I would say that uh to your point, there are acts that require courage, and as you are performing them, you are fearful, but when you perform them, you feel good. If one is a person who's trying to become a courageous person, or one is a courageous person. Similarly, there are acts that are courageous, one is fearful while doing it, one's one still does it, but at the end of it, feels badly about it. That person is not trying to be a courageous person, even if they are, maybe they are, because I think there's a caveat to be said here. They are not courageous just yet. So the give it so what I mean to say is that the agent, the virtuous agent who has knowledge, choice, no secondary gain, and is consistent. Well, that person is a virtuous agent. But for the rest of us common folk, we do those acts maybe with incomplete knowledge, but but the prerequisite there is we are seeking. I think that is the minimum prerequisite. You cannot just by chance end up doing something good.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:There's a there's a joke, but this is my dad's joke. Like there's uh there the people, all these guys are standing on this um this bridge and they're looking down on the water, and there's this guy who's like, you know, flailing in the water. He's like drowning. It's a river, like they can see him, you know, he's flailing and he's asking for help. And suddenly that nobody's ready to go into this raging water, right? Suddenly there's this loud splash, and this guy just you know is in the water. He's like swimming towards this guy and he catches him, and then he somehow brings him to the shore. And everybody comes cheering down to this guy who you know dived into the water, and he's they they're lifting him up on the shoulder and they're cheering him on, saying, you know, my gosh, look at you, you saved this guy. He says, just let all that be. Who's the guy who pushed me into the water? I'd be that guy. You know, you see what I mean? Like that is not necessarily a courageous act. So you don't want to be that guy, right? So I think having some prerequisite, but even if you don't have all those other things, right? You you you have some choice, you have some knowledge, you know, you have some secondary gain, and you're probably doing it inconsistently. But the more you do it, the easier it gets, the learn-do cycle continues, then eventually you find yourself in this loop. You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I see what you mean. And uh, and that's building habits. And you know, I was uh thinking about that in terms of you know, habits habits form over time, behavior change happens over time, behavior change is not easy to do. If you're actively trying to change a behavior, it's gonna take six to nine months of truly making it a habit, right? Trying something different and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations to make that happen. So building this muscle of of virtuous habits is something that you know courageous, I think, is is a great one to use as the example because I think it might be one of the harder ones to do. I think generosity is something that could come easier if you are intentional about doing that, right? Um, but courageous is is stepping out into a lot of uncomfortable spaces. Honesty is a lot easier. That's right. Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then there are some that you don't even know what it feels, what what what how do you know you're performing an act that is in fact just? Right? It just gets hard. And there are levels to this that are kind of beyond your scope, even right. Right. Um, they're complex.
SPEAKER_05:Which is the interesting thing because you're then you're really you never really know. I mean, there's yeah, I mean, you can reflect back on the actions that you took and say, Oh, I think that was virtuous, or in this scenario, I think that that was the right thing to do. But it's it's it's this dichotomy of like at the end of the day, it's other people who are perceiving you as virtuous, yeah. Yourself. Well, and so you might be experiencing happiness because you're on that path and you're constantly looking for it, but you don't ever know because you can't, it's it's difficult to assess. Was that virtuous? Very difficult, but in the eyes of others, it potentially was, but you won't know that because you're not necessarily going to get that feedback from others.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know what? I'll tell you. So this is a great point. What if, right? What if there's an act one does and one believes it's a virtuous act, one carries that with them through their life, thinking, you know what? I do this act, this is a great act. And not only that, society really says, Oh, yeah, you know, this is a great act. Look at you, you're just such a great person. Then you realize as your life goes on, and maybe as you're coming closer and closer to the to your death, that in fact, that act was not, in fact, what all you thought it turned out to be. It actually had consequences that were beyond uh, you know, that were probably counter to what you thought it was. Now, whether or not someone, whether or not the tide changes and people blame you for the act, that is a whole nother thing. But how do you how does one live with oneself, right? If one is believed, one is a virtuous person, one has followed this path, they're going for the capital H happiness, suddenly it turns out the act that you did did not get you there. You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, absolutely. No, it's a great point. And um in today's day and age, a lot of us are thinking that people were acting virtuously, and in fact, we are not, right? And and that that's a whole nother thing, right? It's just you know you're on the path of what you think is virtuous, and um and you know, only you know half people think you are, and half people think you're not.
SPEAKER_00:And and that's true. And see, that's the other thing. That's why it's just it's the journey is all within. Like one has to look at them because at the end of the day, right? If you believe the the the republic, it doesn't matter what the people think, you know, what do you truly believe? And you cannot you and honestly, it's very difficult to lie to oneself if one is in fact a rational person, right? So I I think there's there's something to be said, and I and I wrote that down somewhere. Yeah, so um, and this is that this is where it's it's important. So he says that um an individual who has the ability to eventually be a just or a virtuous person, you know, all individuals have passions, they have faculties and states of character. And the way I look at it is passions are things that are related to pleasures and pain. These are actually emotions, these are you know, uh being sad, being angry, you know, things like that, being happy, you know. Um so these are signs, these are these are emotions, these are states of being that we really don't have a choice. It's like the lizard brain. You you know, one cannot be blamed or praised for being happy or for being sad or for being angry. Okay, I take that back for feeling sad, for feeling happy, for feeling angry. You know, one can feel all of these things, and you really don't have any control over it. But there are like so there, there are faculties, and faculties is what um gives you the ability to actually um express that. So that means that one could be angry and one can express anger, or one could be angry and may not express anger, right? That is that is a choice in a way, okay? And then there's a state of character, one could be somebody who gets angry very easily and constantly stays in a state of anger. Everything makes them angry, right? That's a state of character, even that is a choice. Now, now what I mean to say is passions are not a choice. If I stub my toe on a wall, like and I give this example. You say you're standing in line at you know at a grocery store, right? And someone just bumps like pushes you out of the line. And you just stand in the minding own business, you get pushed out of the line, and for a moment there, you're like you're you you feel irritation, you feel anger. You you turn around, right? And it turns out it was an old person just stumbled and pushed you out of the way, right? You're not gonna take a swing at that person, right? Right? Hopefully not. Hopefully not, right? But but having said that, you cannot blame yourself for being irritated at having been pushed. I mean, that's something that you cannot really control. Like it's just in you. You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So the initial, the initial emotion that one has, one has no control and one cannot be blamed for it. But if you got pushed out of line and you just turned around and you didn't even think, and you just swung your your fist into this person's face, well, that means you are kind of acting on that irritation that you felt, right? And then you end up hitting this old person, and then you are absolutely, you know, you're you're you feel terrible about it, and you, you know, you say, I'm sorry, I didn't know, or whatever, and you feel terrible about it. That's fine. But what if you do that and you're still angry at that person? That is a poor state of character, right? So you have the passion, you you lack the faculty, and you also have a poor state of character. You're like, you know, so what this person is old, you know, get out of my way. Right? So now if one has the ability, if so, if one does not feel passions, right? I there are states of being that are abnormal, but there are some people who are anhedonic, like they just don't feel sensations. Sure. No pleasure, no pain, none of that. Well, unfortunately for that person, it gets hard then to be on this path. Like what I'm trying to say is that it is it is hard then for this person to be judged to be virtuous or not, because they they don't meet that first requirement. Right.
SPEAKER_05:They also might have a difficult time actually making it through society, though, at the same time. It's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so that so that so again, so unfortunately, when we say, you know, this person is a virtuous person, this person is not a virtuous person, the first thing we have to ask ourselves, does this person feel pleasure and pain? Is he anodonic? Well, we don't come across anodonic people all the time, but maybe there are people like that. The second thing is, uh, do they have the ability to control that that emotion? So you may have the emotion, but you have the ability to control the emotion. Now, there are lots of reasons why some people don't have the ability to control the emotion because of prior trauma, you know, PDSD, uh, you know, all of those things come in, right? Like one could have been abused as a child or whatever, they they come from war tone areas in the Maslow's trying to triad, they are the pyramid, they've not had the baseline levels, and so there are all those reasons why they cannot control it. If if one grew up in this in the in in South Chicago or whatever, in the in the you know, in in some of those places, and you you probably have a very different uh um threat level, very different ability to if someone bumps into you, I mean you probably swing at him because you would expect that in the in those places that's that's a threat, right? Right, as opposed to in my suburb. And so that is not a choice. That's almost not a choice for some people. You see what I mean? So then then one cannot judge that person to be virtuous or not virtuous because they don't have the ability to control that faculty, and then there are those people who honestly don't have the ability to uh to to control their state of character. What I mean is that one is a little bit harder for me to justify, but I mean there are people who are kind of psychotic, like they're there are they're psychos, they're sociopaths, psychopaths, right? Right? Who who feel passions, they act on those passions, and they don't feel any way one way about it. They just that's who they are. It's a it's a quirk of their nature, right? But those people are kind of few and far in between.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I was gonna say those are the outliers, though, right? And correct. And what in this actually gets to kind of uh Aristotle's idea of there's a mean and you have your extremes, right? And and that the virtuous acts are typically somewhere in the middle of these extremes. But as we've talked about, my middle is different than yours, and and so like the your example of the you know game bunked in line, there are multiple ways in which a person could respond and to that act.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_05:Self-control and temperance is potentially a virtuous act, if uh right, but you turn around and you know, you and you say, Oh, you you recognize it's an old an elderly person, you pick them up if you're okay. Might have been a little annoyed, but you forgive them. I turn around, I see an old person, I'm still annoyed, and I choose not to do anything, but I choose not to do anything. I don't I choose not to pick them up, but I also choose not to say anything to them or to swing at them. Different, different mean there, but are both potentially virtuous acts.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Or you know, behavior, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right, but you know, the thing is, yes, there is there is a difference, but the question to ask is what will Socrates do in that situation, right? Right, right, and and then so one is what would Socrates do? But the other thing is one may not have the underpinnings that are required to be able to do those things that Socrates would do, right? You see what I mean? Yeah, Socrates had the ability, he had he felt the passions, had the faculties, and had the state of character. One may not have any of these three things, and so it this is that's why this is about this, that's why I feel like this is about oneself. If one is listening to this conversation, if what if one is having these conversations, one is reading about this, they probably have all three of these things. And if you have all three of these things and you're still not doing the right thing, ask yourself why, right? And most of the people I know in my life, I can tell you, like, yeah, I was in the same situation, right? I was in a situation, but most of my life I had all of these abilities, I never exercised them, never asked what would Socrates do. And so uh it is um it is important then to understand for oneself where one is in this journey, right? And not and not blame someone else. So you're not trying to find virtue in someone else, you know, or say, you know, that person is not a virtuous person, that person is not a virtuous person. The only finger to point is to at oneself, essentially, is what I was trying to get from that. Um, so that was one thing that I wanted to say, and then uh to your point about uh yeah, so emotions are not a choice, acting on emotions uh if for most of us is a choice. I find that for myself it's a choice, and then so and that's why I believe that virtuous action is a choice, right? For for me, I can only talk about for myself, and if I choose not to perform in a virtuous activity, I have only myself to blame. You see, and it might it may not necessarily be true for my neighbor. So um, if one possesses emotion, one possesses the ability to feel these emotions, ability to manage these emotions, this ability then, this ability to manage this becomes your state of character. And what and one can change one's state of character. You know, honestly, I can tell you for myself, like anger was very I used to get angry very easily, and a lot there were lots of different reasons for it. And I'm not gonna give you any excuses, but my point was I've been able to control that much better because of this reason, right? Um, but unfortunately, psychopathy is not a choice, right? Right? It's chemical, correct, and one has no say in it, you know, and and it's just good fortune that I'm not a psychopath. Right now, you see what I mean? Now uh I but I do believe that neurosis is a choice, say more. Yeah, you know, this day-to-day anxiety that one has, right? If one is sitting there, the crisis that we talk about, right? If you're sitting there and and you're asking yourself, like I'm doing all of these things, why am I not happy? You know, why why why is my relationship with my spouse not good? Why do I not have any friends? Why do my kids not, you know, talk to me? These are small H's, but they are. You know, where is this going? Where is this headed? Why do I feel this way? Right? There's a certain neurosis that comes with just the anxiety of just day-to-day living. That's a choice. One can, if one is asking oneself these questions, right, then I think they have the abilities to be able to then act on that, is what I mean.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that. Yeah, it's interesting you brought up free will a few times now, and I feel like that's very much a concept here that you're touching on, which is in most scenarios here, we have the free will to make these choices. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, what do you what do you think about that though? Like, you know, there's a because there's a lot of controversy regarding free will. I mean, is it truly free will, right? Because if if one doesn't, you know, like we said, if the you know when it comes to these emotions, the ability to act on these emotions and all of that is psychopathy is not a not free will, essentially, right? Uh, but when we say free will, I believe when you say free will, you're probably talking about contingent free will. Like once if you have the ability, do you exercise the ability? Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_05:That's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's a that's a great way to uh explain it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that there's well, I think at the end of the day, I mean that's what I think Aristotle is talking about here, right? Is that you, you know, you have these choices. For most of us have these choices that we can make. Um and and as you've mentioned, I think, you know, at the beginning too, like it's this isn't you know, the people who are listening to this to this conversation or reading these books and having these conversations are at the place where they're ready to ponder this, to think about it, and to assess themselves. And and though, and it's okay for those who just aren't aware yet or aren't ready for it. And you know, we you know, in our first session together, we talked about that vertical development. And you know, these diplomats and optimists are in early stages of of adult development, of vertical development, and they're not capable of this type of thinking or making these type of choices. In fact, they aren't living virtuously. I mean, at the end of the day, they are in it for themselves. Uh yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's not until these later stages of development that people are ready to accept, are able to think about how they are coming across in the world, how other people might perceive them, what how am I behaving in a way that I want to be behaving and viewed? You know, what is that? What am I a courageous person? Am I a serving leader? Right. I mean, bringing it into today's themes of like what these are all things like we you have free will at every stage of of adult of adult development, right? I mean, we all I mean that free will is probably a whole nother, we could spend an hour on free will alone, right? But but it at the end of the day, like we all have that choice. We we have the the ability to make these choices. Uh, and some of us, it's a lot easier. The path, it's the easier path is not the virtuous path.
SPEAKER_00:It's not the virtuous path, that's correct.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah. And so you have to be in a certain place ready to challenge yourself and actually to live that virtuous path.
SPEAKER_00:But going back, it was very interesting, going back to your the vertical spectrum. You said the opportunist and the diplomat are not virtuous. Um but they have the they have the choice. Would you agree with me if I say that maybe because so let me I I see what you mean by when you say that they have a choice because they have as long as they're not psychopaths, right? They have the they have the emotions, they have uh the ability ah, see that's my point. So the second part of not acting on your emotions, I believe, is there is a play of practical wisdom there. It takes several iterations of living and understanding that one can get pushed out of a line that most people are pushing out of the line or not pushing out of the line because they are they are they're trying to be mean to you. It's probably a mistake, and that is a learned behavior, that is practical wisdom.
SPEAKER_05:It comes back to your what you mentioned earlier of the the virtuous acts require the requirements of virtuous acts. And the first one I think you mentioned was knowing what one is doing, yeah. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_05:Knowledge, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Ah, and a young person cannot, yes, yes, you're right. It it yeah, man, this is beautiful. So that is true. So is it true that in the vertical spectrum, you the younger you are, the more likely you are to find yourself in the earlier stages of this, right? That's correct. Yeah. Then what you said makes perfect sense. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And now some people don't grow out of it, but but if you if you are, you know, the more knowledge you gain, the teachings, right, the intellectual aspect, the environments that you're in, all of this creates new perspective. You can gain more knowledge, right? We all gain knowledge with our years, which is you know, coming back to Socrates, you know, having a conversation with I I'm forgetting his name um from the Republic, but the older, the father figure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um and and saying, Well, you're so wise, you're you're you're you're an elder here, and and and so he shows his respect to that person. You know, that yeah, in its simplest form, but that's you know, the it's Socrates, I think, got it of you know, with with age comes wisdom and knowledge and experience.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right, that's right. It that that's the so so good. So let me ask you this then. You uh you spoke about the virtuous leader, right? So if one is on the path of virtue, one is one has knowledge, is has choice, lack of secondary gain, is doing these things consistently, finds themselves in a leadership position in an organization, how then can that leader assess the people he is leading and make opportunities across the spectrum? Because that's what Aristotle is trying to say here, you know what I mean? I think you know exactly what I'm saying. Like that that's exactly that that's his point. His point is that if one isn't this virtuous leader, how then do you make everybody around you as a society virtuous?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, well, I think Socrates was attempting to do that too. To his uh demise. And so in it's in my simplest answer to that, my in my it's in its a belief, is that leaders teaching leaders to teach leaders, and that you have great responsibility when you when you when other people are following you in whatever that looks like, right? And and to demonstrate both behaviorally but also you know, not so in action and behavior, in speech, and talk, you're demonstrating what what these virtuous acts look like. And if you're a leader, you can expect that from others, and you don't have to, like I I think actually courageous comes in too in not tolerating those who don't act that way, and saying in front of everyone, you know, this is not how we do it. You know, how many, I mean, how many experiences, Anish, in your lifetime have you experienced and I don't think you'll be able to come up with an answer for this, but how many cancers have you experienced in an organization in your you know in your career? Yeah, I mean, every you know, it exists everywhere, and then there's great leaders everywhere as well, right? So it's at the end of the day, though, uh leadership starts at the top. And if they are creating a culture, an environment that also is open to knowledge and experience and inquiry, instead of just taking action all the time, are we actually stopping and asking ourselves, are we doing the right thing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the the what I'm struggling with is the how. See, the the premise of all of this, Aristotle lays down the ground rules, right? That this is intended for those who are seeking and are willing to learn from those who know. Right? How does one influence those who number one don't know that they don't know and they're unwilling to learn? Because I believe those, based on what I'm hearing from you, the opportunists and the diplomat are in that state. Then now one is a leader. Now, sometimes one can find opportunists and diplomats in leadership.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, absolutely. Right?
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure you absolutely and and so then well then that you know, then I don't know how you do how do you manage that? Because that is, I'm sure, a lot harder to deal with than if they're further down on the org chart. Um and so maybe maybe I could I I want to get your views on it. So, how do you maybe you can have an idea on how do you manage the the person who's lower down on the org chart? How do you create opportunities for that person to be able to you know finally come to some understanding? How do you create how do you capitalize on crisis on for that person, number one? And then maybe how do you deal with somebody who is further up in that chain?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so I mean it's great, great questions. And I mean, going back to my my days of um experience working with leaders, I mean, starting with um there's development programs for everyone, right? You can be an individual contributor and you can take a training that creates some self-awareness. But every leadership program and engagement that I've ever done starts with self-awareness. So it's by building that. And you know, we use 360-degree feedbacks in organizations, right? So you're getting feedback from your peers, from your boss, from your boss's boss, from other people in the organization. If you have direct reports from them, you're getting this full map view that's uh that's saying this is how we perceive you. And now that person can choose not to do anything with it, but the chances are they won't be there very long if they don't. You know, I mean, there's plenty of people who, again, who have worked their way up never getting that feedback, and and they might be in a culture that is more cutthroat, right? Like you talk like big consulting, right? I mean, you know, it's it's up or out, and people will do whatever they need to do to move up if that's what they want. And that that in that type of environment creates a culture of competition, of backstabbing, of these diplomatic and opportunist type of behaviors and ways of viewing the world. And then all of a sudden you become a meet manager and uh an executive, and that's no longer considered acceptable. But yet you've been taught how to lead based on the culture you've you've been in, right? So it's the same working with attorneys. You know, you're it's all cutthroat, and you know, one day you know you're constantly competing, you're taught in law school how to argue and debate. And so you go in, and this is your kind of all fighting for partnership, and you finally get to partnership, and you have no idea how to actually lead or be a leader or you know, motivate other people other than what you've already learned, right? So there's cultures that just exist that don't allow that unless you actually build in this the opportunity for development in an organization.
SPEAKER_00:I I see. I see what you mean. It it is hard, and I that's why I find it very difficult to think of this as any other pursuit than a pursuit for self-improvement. You know, trying to get anybody else to do this is extremely difficult. And I would say impossible, but again, I don't know if that would be the way to go. Uh, saying it's impossible. I don't think anything is impossible, but a lot definitely a lot harder.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I've um you know, over the years, I I typically won't take a coaching client that doesn't want to work on themselves. I don't I don't need that. That's not good use of my time. I don't I don't want to work with someone who's who's saying, no, I don't need that. All right, well, you know, okay, that's fine. That's that's great. But uh you know, the fix-its, I don't, you know, I I've often been brought in to work with those who needed like you know, they were having issues, they needed improvement. And I I think it's you know, it's pretty fascinating. I don't necessarily that I'm not passionate about working with them. I'm more I'm passionate about working with those who are doing great and want to do better. They will they're striving for for you know making themselves the best person they can be. So these people are already on some path and and they're open to feedback, they're open, they're curious, they want to learn. I mean, those are the best types. And and you know, I think that at the end of the day, I mean, we talk about real outliers, but you know, the the toxicity isn't necessarily, you know, they're outliers too, at the end of the day. It's you know, there are more people, or at least this is my belief, there are more people out there wanting to do good than there are, you know, wanting to, you know, be a bull in a china shop and leave uh you know a bunch of dead bodies behind them ever after, and and those people exist, but but those might be outliers. Maybe there's maybe they're sociopaths, maybe they're narcissists, maybe they're right. It's um they they're not fitting for development.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's an interesting point. And this is um my take on this is that yes, you're right, I do believe majority of the people believe they are good people and what they're doing is is the right thing to do, but unfortunately, a lot of us are just mistaken. And once we find out what we did was not right, we will change our ways. I believe that. Um the problem becomes in the meantime, right? And see the practice about practical wisdom is it it takes time, it takes several iterations, and a lot of those iterations are one just coming upon the same problem and same crisis and dealing with it in multiple different ways, or even the same way. You keep be hitting yourself, your head on the wall, you keep hitting your head on the wall because you want to escape, and your head is hurting and you're bleeding, and all you needed to have done was just you know walked along the wall and there was a door at the end. You know what I mean? You just didn't realize it. And then now, next time you come upon a wall, you don't butt your head into it, you look for doors, yeah, right? So you solve the problem because you came upon the crisis and you dealt with the crisis, but each time you're hitting your head on the wall, you're getting more frustrated. You're frustrated at walls, the frustrated on the nature of walls and the softness of your head, and and this the situation that brought you there, where all you needed to have done was just walked along the wall. And that's just a silly example. But my point is that if you were to tell that person, you know, why they why are you hitting your head on the wall, man? You know, they would be, they would not, they would not believe you that there's a door, and all they needed to have done was walk through. They'll probably get mad at you for interfering, or you know. So I don't believe they are necessarily, and I was in that same situation myself, right? And sometimes it's not as objective as there's a wall, there's a door in the wall. Maybe you don't know there's a door in the wall. And and and and then how do you then lead somebody out of that uh sense of because you know there's suffering in that? I do believe the earlier I've that that one is right in that in the in the vertical spectrum, there's more suffering there is, and as you start going along that spectrum, suffering decreases.
SPEAKER_05:I would agree with that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? So there's more suffering, and then because of that suffering, that suffering leads to uh emotion, that emotion leads to acting out of that emotion, that leads to a level, a certain stage of character that that's that that's who you get defined by. I was an angry person, I was uh I you know, all of those things. So that comes with because of the state that you are in, and you suddenly you transcend that and you get to the next level, you lose that, and you become easier, more amenable. And the further you get along that, you realize that you don't know anything. There's a point when you don't know anything. That's correct, right? And then you're absolutely like clay, like you could be molded in so many different ways and turned into something else, and that is where people like Lycurgis and Numa suddenly find themselves, and now they understand the nature of what it takes to come to that point. There's a there's a mixture of good fortune, there's a mixture of crisis, there's a mixture of time, um, and all of those things, and then the ability, having the ability to not act on your emotions and all that, all of those things, no one can define exactly what it is that makes somebody want to change. So once you have that, then you have to ask yourself, am I willing to go back now and talk to all of these opportunists and diplomats and and tell them that there's light at the end of the tunnel and that they shouldn't behave this way? And rather than why don't I just look toward the light and keep walking in that direction than going back? You see?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, I see, yeah. Yeah, and look at the end of the day, it comes back too again. Like, I think you know, you're you you're talking about, I think this is a journey of the self.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Because you know, you and I both have kids. Maybe we can tell them, hey, I've been down that path. Yeah, let's not go down that path. I've been there, I can tell you. I this is not go well for me. Are they gonna listen? No, no, they're probably gonna maybe if you if I talk to your kids, if you talk to my kids, maybe they would listen, right? Maybe they would, yeah. But they're not gonna listen to your parents. But so it's the same, but you know, in in it's you know, getting people ready to listen in and that that takes time, it takes experience. Sometimes it takes a bad experience or life-changing event absolutely that triggers the shift.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's a great point. And so I and so the maybe the other question to ask yourself is should one then advise somebody to not go down that path? Because you see what I mean? Yeah, right? Because one has to learn from the mistakes. That's how practical wisdom is formed. That's right. Right? And I think by shielding people from not making the mistakes, one we stunt their ability to be able to gain practical wisdom, and that leads to more neurosis. There are whole generations that have neurosis because of that reason. They don't know how to deal with just day-to-day struggles because it hasn't come across day-to-day struggles. So very it's a it's a fascinating take on leadership. Should one allow, you know, I think uh there's another thing to be said that when one is young, one looks at people who have the experience ahead of them and one doesn't understand them. And I and we always blame them. Like, how the what you know, how is it that these these old folks are you know leading this? You know, we need more young people, they don't understand us, they don't get us. And um, the older folk are looking at these guys going, looking at looking the other way down, the younger folks are saying, you know, they are just opportunist diplomats, they don't have they don't have the experience. And the people below, but it you never know how much experience one has. One every but everybody believes, one till one doesn't have the knowledge, right? One believes that they have the experience. Right, right. Knowledge is is yes or no. Once you have it, then you realize, oh, I didn't have the experience. Every year I look at back back at my year that went back, and I'm like, man, I didn't know anything then, I know more now. But I'm really hoping that when I'm 60, I know a lot more than I know now when in my 40s, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So so one doesn't know what one doesn't know. That's one thing. And then the younger you are, one believes that there is not that much more to know. I'm an adult.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Yeah, as a younger age, I thought I knew everything. Now I know that I don't know anything. And the last year, I but I do know I do I know more now than I did last year. But you did last year, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But there was a time when you were when I was much younger, when I thought that I knew everything, there was nothing more for me to know, right? And then that's that's unfortunately where you are. And so the when you in in the republic and even in in the Nicomachian ethics, there is something that that both Aristotle and Plato say that um that till one comes to around 40 years of age, you know, one is not ready to participate in something bigger than themselves. Some people get there earlier, and those people should be sought after and found. And you know, you can see so so Marcus Aurelius was someone like that. At a very young age, he exhibited um maturity way beyond his level, right? He was actually chosen, even though he was he was adopted by the emperor, and uh and he was made the emperor, uh, despite the fact that the emperor had a biological son. Right. And when Marcus Aurelius ascended the throne, he split the kingdom in half. He gave half to this other guy who was who because he, you know, that that's the kind of guy he was, right? You know, he gave his own personal wealth during the uh I think there was a flood or something that he gave his personal wealth to to support the citizens of Rome during that. He did things like that, you know. So he at a very young age he had those abilities, but not everybody's like that. And I think 40 is the time. So there is a way that you can you can build organizations around that as a as a metric, you know. You like the I see around the dot-com boom and stuff like that, and even with AI and all these things, you see these guys who are in their 20s and they are multi-billionaires now, right? And they're and they're and they're they're running the world. Yes, they are they have the narrow in the narrow field of where they are, they are they're way ahead of everybody else, but they are not broad in their understanding.
SPEAKER_05:No, they're not. No, they're actually very technically uh they're technically uh they're they have technical expertise.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_05:They don't have they don't have um the knowledge and wisdom to be the wealthiest folks in the world and running having power and control. And yeah. They're not virtuous agents, right? That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and and then in in in in our organizations, in our spheres of life, I think it's important to find virtuous agents. You're more likely to find them if they are further along in their age and they've had practical wisdom. And I think there are ways to screen for that and the ways to evaluate for that. The person that you're choosing for the next role or a CEO's rope job or whatever. I think there's an analysis that can be done that says, is this person an opportunist, diplomat, you know, whatever these other I forget the all the levels are, but but you know what I mean? Are they post-conventional or not? And then if someone is post-conventional, the next question to ask them is why the heck do you want to do this, man?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And I think you'll have some very specific answers that may not be answers at all, but it won't be to benefit themselves. It cannot be secondary gain. It will not be secondary gain. It will be to benefit those others, to have a bigger impact in the world and to be able to connect, you know, to have purpose and you know, mission, vision focused. Um yeah, but it will it will not be um it will not be for the say for their own sake, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00:And and then obviously it's not for anyone to know, it's only for that agent to know whether that is the case or not, right? But if you find that if there's an assessment to be done to find if one is post-conventional, and they you you have all the objective ways of figuring that out, and they be and they and they tell you that that's the case, well, then all you can do is believe that and then move on from there, right? And then you've got to obviously weigh their actions against the actions. So, again, this is not supposed to be something that you do outwardly to others, it's about who you are in this space, I think. Um I you know we are we are, I think, a little bit more than halfway through, but I think we could probably stop here and because this then goes into uh the each of those uh model virtues and the excesses and the deficiencies and the mean. I think we can discuss that on the next one.
SPEAKER_05:That sounds good. All right.
SPEAKER_00:All right, Johan, thank you. Yeah, yep.
