SPEAKER_00: 0:02

All right, everybody. Welcome back to Resiliency Rounds. This is Resiliency Rounds with uh Jeremy and Anish. And where we left off last time was Aristotle's Nicomachian Ethics Book Two. We went halfway through it. I would say three-fourths of the way through it. And now we're going to finish book two today. And before we start off on our journey to complete book two, I just wanted to give a little bit of a prelude as to you know what are we doing here and how far along have we come? And so I would like to start maybe you know when we started this uh podcast many years ago, uh both it was uh with uh my dear friend Eddie and me, and we we did it as physicians. At that time, you know, we were feeling ourselves that uh there was a misalignment, if you may, between what we felt about our profession and about our lives and how the practice of medicine was unfolding in front of our eyes. And we were also right at that stage in life where you come upon big existential questions and you ask yourself, you know, are you happy? Or what what even is happiness? And we initially fairly quickly understood that these questions are not necessarily specific to physicians, but since we were physicians, we started in that realm. And hence the name resiliency rounds, a lot of our early podcasts uh allude to uh medicine. We both, I was a I'm a cardiologist, and and um Eddie uh is a uh urogynacologist and she's a surgeon. And so we had a lot of uh anecdotes that necessarily came from medicine. However, very quickly we understood that this is more just of a philosophical journey of any human, any rational being. And along the way, we uh this we we took a I won't say a uh detour, but a de not yet not detour at all, as a matter of fact. It was um we came upon a uh syllabus, a curriculum of the US Naval War College. And um, that was called the Foundations of Moral Obligation Course, which actually fit really well with what we were trying to do before we came upon the curriculum. Before we came upon the curriculum, we were taking up Mortimer Adler's challenge about going through about 54 books uh that formed the Western canon of thought. And um and it was an arduous task. We started on it and it was it was difficult to complete it. And so the Foundation's moral obligation course is a distilled version of that. Um, and it it had other elements to it. It also had Eastern thought, which I uh particularly took uh you know realized very, very quickly that the Eastern and the Western line of thought come together, and there was this um uh there that humans, no matter which side they're on, or which what culture they belong to, they all come upon certain truths. And so uh it's a very nice uh mix of both the uh the foundations of model obligation. And the reason to participate in the foundations of moral obligation course or the great conversation or the eastern and western philosophy is because we want to build inside of us a toolkit, a toolkit that allows us to make decisions when it matters most. And it usually matters most when there is this decision to be made between good and evil, right and wrong, and not just at a personal level, but at a in a larger playing field. And the and the larger that playing field gets, the more the consequences of these decisions, and the more the and the deep and more varied and more broad your toolkit, one's toolkit needs to be in order to participate. And so this has become a way to create to create a toolkit to add more tools to that toolkit. And when when we say toolkit, we're talking about a philosophical toolkit. And so uh we started on the journey with uh the platonic dialogues, which form the backbone of the Western uh line of thought, and we finished the the Platonic dialogues that were recommended. There are a lot more uh Platonic dialogues that we haven't um uh focused on or haven't discussed in the podcast, but um it we rounded off the Platonic dialogues with the Republic and then moved on to Aristotle, and uh in the Aristotelian works, uh, which are a little bit dry compared to the Platonic dialogues, because this is a a lecture series that was uh delivered by Aristotle to uh princes and other nobility uh in a way to kind of learn philosophy and sciences, and so it's a bit uh it's a bit dry. Um, and then along the way, Jeremy joined and uh uh Eddie has um taken a bit of a break. And so Jeremy has been my uh partner here in uh in continuing the conversation, the great conversation. And so that's where we are at. We're at uh at uh the Nicomarchean Ethics, and that's Journey Hobby Got here. Uh and uh and just a bit a bit of a prelude regarding um the Aristotelian uh Nicomachian Ethics book two. Uh it is about the virtuous agent. Um, how does uh one uh start participating in virtue and walk the path of virtue so that one can be on the path to happiness? Uh the virtuous agent should be knowledgeable, should have choice, and the actions that they perform should be done without secondary gain. Um and uh and it and it should be done consistently, it cannot be done just once in a while. And so those kind of actions are what's called virtuous action, and they qualify one as a virtuous agent. And and as you are walking down this path of virtue, it's a direction you never achieve your goal, but that path is a path that leads to happiness. And along the way, a virtuous agent needs to do, um, needs to understand where virtue is, and virtue uh lies somewhere in the middle of two extremes. So that's what brings uh book two to a conclusion. So I'm gonna hand it off to Jeremy now to see what his thoughts were regarding this concept of the mean and virtue, and then if he has any other thoughts about you know what I just discussed. And and Jeremy, feel free to talk about your journey as well. Um, and you know, how the our paths have uh come together.

SPEAKER_01: 6:47

Sure, sure. Thanks, Nish. Yeah, it's um the the mean is something actually that I spent this week thinking about quite a bit, um, and in my own personal life and experience. So um you know, the there are extremes, right? And so, you know, living virtuously is somewhere in the middle, and and to what your point were you know, we would never actually reach there, right? So it it requires constant work, and I think you're you're constantly moving the needle. And so what was interesting this week is so you know, some of how I spend my time for years I've been donating money to different charities, I rescue dogs, I you know, you know, um I do things where I'm on a board of a nonprofit, I've been on two boards of nonprofits over the years, and and that's me thinking that all right, that's me living virtuously. But then these are things that are kind of um hands off. Donating money is hands hands off. So I'm thinking about the mean and say, well, I might be living somewhere in there in terms of um generosity, if we're using generosity as a virtue. But I'm not I haven't reached because I'll never reach it, but so how do I actually become more generous? And my wife this week was going to uh a local shelter program that lifts people up, it houses families, it gives them job training, gives them food, it gives them every all the resources they need to go out and be successful and independent, and you move through the program and eventually are living on your own. But every Monday they they have people come and make you know, people make homemade meals and serve, you know. I think there were 27 uh you know uh members there this week. And and I had a decision I could make, which is she asked me to go, and I choose to go or not to go, and I could make up lots of excuses on why not to go. Um and the reality is is well, if I you know, where we're talking about being virtuous and and how do I increase you know whatever my goal, my end goal is, and it's actually by doing more action, by taking action. Absolutely, and and so I chose to do it. And now that doesn't make me more virtuous, that was a one-time event, right? And so as we're talking about this chapter of book two, we're talking too about like just because you do it once doesn't mean that it makes you virtuous. It's the it's the act of doing it over and over and over again because you can, it's that choice you're making, but it's also becomes more of a habit. It's that consistency you talked about. It's the knowledge uh, yeah, I know I'm doing this, and I have a choice to do it, and I'm gonna do it consistently instead of doing it one time and saying, well, I was, you know, I'm a good person. Uh so that that's my my recent reflection uh this week on on virtue and and I it's not exactly living in the mean because my you know our goalpost constantly is moving. So I haven't given you examples of like extremes on the mean, but right, but I know that even within the mean, wherever I am, I'm not there. I haven't arrived. So I'm somewhere, you know, maybe to the left or to the right of of wherever wherever I fall.

SPEAKER_00: 10:14

So yeah, so let's uh find out, Jeremy, if you met all the criteria for a virtuous agent. So one is knowledge. So I think when we say knowledge, it is not just knowledge of the act that you're committing, it is also the knowledge that performing the act, even though in the short term may not be pleasure pleasurable, puts you on the path to good action. And if you were to string many such acts together for the rest of your life, would would increase your likelihood of achieving eudaimonia. So, yes, so that's the knowledge. One is the knowledge part of it. The other part of the knowledge is participating in an act that does not in the end turn out to be not a good act. You see, that is a little bit harder to do because one doesn't know if the acts that one is doing can you follow them for eternity and see if there is a good or a bad uh result that comes out of it. And I think that one is a bit harder to do than the former one because uh and you also have to be a bit practical about it. Like Aristotle talks about this, you don't want to get into too many specifics, and you also want to be a little bit general. So, yes, going out there and feeding or housing or teaching or educating someone who is unfortunate fortune as us is um is a good act. And one doesn't have to see you know who these people are and what's gonna happen, and you know, so on and so forth. So, so there we go. So that is knowledge, second is choice, and I think that's that's a good that's a good point to to kind of spend a little bit of time, but because you had the opportunity to not go, but uh you also understood that not going uh strays you away from the path. Right, and and so uh the you know you made the decision voluntarily, you understood the you understood the the two or the three or four different options you had, and you understood which each of them point, and you realize this one going is probably closest. And then uh comes secondary gain. Now, we've discussed this in detail last time because there is always gain. You know, we are doing all of this selfishly so that we are on the path to uh happiness and we're walking the right, the good path. But of all the things, of all the gains that one can have, uh the that's the best kind of secondary gain. The gain in which you do something for yourself, but what you get in return is uh common good. It participates in the common good. The only thing you're getting back in return is the fact that you followed the path of the of right action. That's the only the secondary gain is not with money. You didn't go there so that you know you would make money number one, obviously. Secondary, you didn't go there because you would be recognized in the local paper and then you could stand for elections, you know. That's the secondary gain. But you're right in pointing out that the last point there is consistency. Now, if you do it just once, or you happen to just do it, and you know, because you found yourself in a fortune in a good in a position where you could do it and you never again come upon that thing, well, that doesn't necessarily make it good action. But then consistency is also not doing the same action over and over again. Consistency is finding yourself on the path again and again. You see? So this is one example, but if you if you you if you trace your steps back, I mean you were participating in non-not-for-profits, you know, you you rescued uh dogs, you did all those things. And so all of those times are when you're when you found yourself on the path and you stepped off at other points, found yourself back again, but you're going in that direction, and that's finding the mean. Now, this day he doesn't give a good example of finding the mean, but what it does is it tells you that the path is actually not a straight path. Maybe the path is straight, but when we find it at different points, we keep intersecting it. But the thing is, again, like when we said that it's not it's not being on the path, it's going in the direction. The right action or the right path or the virtuous action. When we say virtue, you know, virtue has these weird connotations, but we are talking about virtue as in the the Hellenistic virtues, that's just justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom, you're trying to walk in that path, and it's a direction. You're walking in that direction. You find yourself off of it, you find yourself on it. But eventually, the better you get, the more you do it, the consistency, if the the more and more such things you string together, the more you find yourself on the true path. So I'd say, based on what I've heard, that you were or you are an ethical agent. Now, you know, you could always choose to step off of that at any point. It's excellent. I love your example. All right, so um so virtue then he says this that um the the thing that we gotta realize is that virtuous acts are hard. The good path is the hard path, the right action is the hard action. It is uh the it and it is not easy to call oneself good or right or virtuous. As a matter of fact, we find ourselves doing that, we need to realize that we are we are leading ourselves astray. Because for um for men who are good, he says men who are good, or men or women in this case, um, humans who are good are good in but one way. Being good, you're good in but one way. I mean, I mean that good is a capital G good. You're your capital G good if you are if you are following the path of right action, good action, virtuous action, and in on the path of happiness. That's what qualifies one as good. But one can be bad in many multitudinous ways. You see, right? And so for all of us, most of the times we are not on the right path. We are not even mindless tasks indifferent, which don't lead to bad or good, are not necessarily good acts. It gets very hard to do the right thing, even if you do even and you could be as strict with yourself as you want, but even if you're sitting there and watching Netflix and eating popcorn, like it doesn't it doesn't necessarily hurt anybody, it's neither good nor bad. But guess what? You're not on the path of virtue. You know, you cannot now. I'm not saying that you know Socrates never took a day off. He did. Obviously, he did things that were pleasurable too. But my point is that that's why being good, there's only one way of being good. You're either doing that or not.

SPEAKER_01: 17:14

Yeah. So so along those lines, people like Socrates, uh, Anisha or cardiologist, are there paths to choose that keep you more on that on the on the path towards goodness? Is that towards the big G, capital G? Is that you know because you're helping people every day as a choice of profession? Is that something those are that's not something that you know you you're you're helping those who want it and some probably who don't want it? Um right? I mean it's every day is an act of you're doing virtuous acts.

SPEAKER_00: 17:57

Well, well, now let's let's ask ourselves that question. It's a great question, uh Jeremy. So then um in order to be able to call be called a virtuous agent, one has to still meet all the qualifications, right? So now, so knowledge, right? Now, I happen to become a cardiologist. I didn't but before I chose to be a cardiologist, I didn't understand the difference between good and evil in the sense that I wasn't a rational agent. I hadn't understood these concepts. I did it when I was very young. And and so I didn't so if I didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, the path to happiness, you know, I thought the path to happiness is becoming a cardiologist, which has got nothing to do with it, you know. Uh I'm I'm sure there was there was somebody who practiced medicine in the in the death camps in uh in Nazi Germany, and there were physicians who did it. I know it. You know, we know we all know that. So that doesn't necessarily make you virtuous. And so it is that the knowledge needs to precede the action, right? I just happen to be a cardiologist who's found who's who's understood the nature of happiness. You know, I as a matter of fact, be being a cardiologist or not being a cardiologist doesn't put you on the path at all, as a matter of fact. Uh, you one could be anybody. I could have been, as a matter of fact, I would, I would, I would believe that one can be um uh uneducated and find and and have an equal chance to be on the path of happiness. Absolutely. It's just that uh it's it's it's an equal chance. Uh well, but it's it's easier for us, you know, in in the in the developed world, educated with the the Maslow's hierarchy, right? We are we have we just have to self-actualize. We've gotten everything else. You know, we we are at the we are at the at the at the one yard line. You know, all we just need to make sure we don't fumble the ball. And I find many people have, even myself, many chances to fumble the ball, right? Um so as a cardiologist, I could have fumbled several times. So so uh knowledge didn't exist before I became a cardiologist. Choice, right? Uh you choose the right action when you understand what the right action is. Without knowledge, there is no choice, it is just chance. So I didn't choose any of this uh before you know I understood the path, right? Secondary gain. I had all sorts of secondary gain. I want to be a cardiologist because people say that you're one, you know, and that gives you and that gives you status, it gives you money, it gives you all of those things. I didn't choose it for virtuous needs, and so I I I don't know if that's the case.

SPEAKER_01: 20:36

So you you think it was more for feeding ego than it was for a desire to help people going into it? Is that uh you know it's a little bit of both, right?

SPEAKER_00: 20:45

Humans are complex. Yeah, now, yes, you know, you say you ask anybody, you read my personal statement or what I wrote when I went into you know residency or or cardiology, it was all about you know helping the the you know the common good. I didn't even know what those things meant. But uh you put it in there just like everybody else does.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:04

So I'm not gonna beat myself over it. I was just I was as conventional as anybody else, you know. Yes, you you I I didn't choose to be, you know, dealing in weapons of mass destruction. I chose to be a physician. You know, so obviously there was some help there, right? But I could be good, I could be good in one way, but I could be bad in so many other ways, right? Right. So I also did many other things that didn't, you know, but yeah, I this gave me a a better chance to align myself eventually.

SPEAKER_01: 21:32

Yeah, a little bit of a boost, maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

Maybe, maybe, yeah. But I know a lot of folks that and if you practice cardiology in a FIFA service uh healthcare system in the US, you know, how much good are you actually doing? Right. But this is one of the reasons why we started uh resiliency runs because you realized because moral injury, you know, you are you are participating in a system that excludes a lot of people, you're participating in a system that is not built for improving outcomes, it's really built for making more money. And and that's deal, those are not the things you signed up for. Right. You know, yeah, you just you signed up to be comfortable in your living, but but not at a cost. And you understand the cost later on, yeah. That's right. So yeah, I don't I don't think you know me being a cardiologist or nothing to do with being a virtuous agent. Um, and even after, as a matter of fact, it's a very complex complex way of trying to be on the path of good, because in order to practice cardiology, one has to be in a system, and that system determines the direction and not one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:40

Which is one of my questions today, which was how does culture right? It could be organizational culture, it could be societal culture, you know, US versus say, you know, Venezuela, Colombia, or you know, Amsterdam, um, but how does how does culture impact our our individual ability and capacity to to become virtuous or to be on that path at least?

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

And that's what Aristotle is contending with here, right? In his mind, this is a a discussion to be had at a societal level. It's important for people to for leaders to understand the nature of virtue and happiness, and then create situations or circumstances where the multitude can then follow in that direction. Uh, it and whether that's the right approach or not is not for us to really discuss. I think time has already taught us whether that's possible or not. Um, but the the Platonic dialogues focus with more on the individual journey. It is possible to do this at an individual level, even though that's a very hard ask of a human, but it's possible. It's near impossible for a multitude. We've had many philosopher kings who have failed at the task. I mean, Marcus Aurelius is a great example, you know, had all the prerequisites, but his own son turned out to be furthest removed from the from the path of good or virtue. So uh but what what do you think? I mean, uh, you know, I've I've gone on and on about this. Uh do you believe that there is there are certain folks who are in fact in a better position to be on the path as opposed to others? Uh due to their profession?

SPEAKER_01: 24:28

Due to their profession. No, I think I think where I'm landing is this idea of you know, when I the the word boost that I use, I think sits well with me because at the end of the day, you can certainly at a young age you're choosing a profession. Are you really doing that because you know you're not thinking about these type of concepts? You might say, I really enjoy helping people, and so I want to help people, which is it which is that that is knowledge at a certain point, right? I mean, that's you know, you have an understanding like this is where I want to go. But again, there's so many different variables that come into you know there's lots of different virtues too, right? So there's lots of different ways to be virtuous, and um, I mean, at a young age I knew that I wanted to help people, right? So I was always a listener, so so it was certainly it made sense to go into psychology, but the PhD was not to help people, that was to feed ego. So uh you know, there was as simple as you know, I want to accomplish things, I want to be the expert, I want to be the achiever. I needed, you know, I believed I needed a document to do that, I needed the background and the schooling to do that. Um that wasn't to live on a path of you know um of virtue, it it was uh it was for self, you know, um you know, my my own to meet my own needs, whatever those are, to fill whatever void I may have. So um and yet, and then you you you find yourself working with people for years who some people, you know, but I I've worked with people who want the help and those who don't. Um I think that that's actually fairly that that right there is a path of like uh generosity and courage when you're working with like an executive who says, I don't need you and you're a waste of my time. And by the way, I know everything that you know, so you're not gonna teach me anything new, and to stay there and to stay that path and say, Okay, well, let's talk about that. Let's let's let let's explore let's explore that. Why why do you think that you know you you have you done all of this before too? And and and be curious about that, but that that in and of itself is is an act of of virtue to sit with those people who actually are not on the path, uh maybe far from it. And um yeah, I don't know. Wait, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00: 27:02

Yeah, yeah. I the the comment that really uh you know struck with me is the willingness to sit with someone who doesn't understand their own ignorance and is unwilling to learn. You know, Aristotle struck those folks out already. Like he's done. He's like, if you have if you're in that group, don't even bother listening to this stuff. Yeah, that's the hardest group. And that's the problem with dealing with the multitude. See, Aristotle uh in in that making that statement has already cancelled out many folks who will be in his republic that he is trying to build, you know. Uh the the challenge becomes in how to motivate folks who are who are don't remember who don't realize their own ignorance and are unwilling to learn because of that. And I was in that camp, you know, and that's why I say a lot of the you know the the actions that I took before I came upon certain understanding was was not action in any direction. I was just going in every direction, being pulled hither, thither by the the winds and the the forces of convention, quite frankly. So and I and I shouldn't say that I'm completely devoid of convention now. You're right, this is and that's why this is to your to your point, you know, the the one act doesn't define your character, it is several such points, several such acts. And so you uh do you have anything else to add on that?

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

Yeah, well, um building off of that is uh it it it's it's interesting that all right, so Aristotle wrote them off, and then at the same time, in this in book two, he's saying this is difficult. Yeah, achieving virtue is difficult. But I I'm just gonna write all of you over here off because you're not capable of it. Yeah, that's right. I find that fascinating because that's not that in and of itself. Well, I mean, of course, Aristotle's a man as well, but like if we we we mentioned earlier, like in this two, but like well, that's not very virtuous of you. I mean, that's not you know, I mean, I think patience, like, right? I mean, um, temperance self-control, like, well, let me sit with you people, you know, with those of you who I believe are not capable of this, in that let me teach you. And on top of that, he's suggesting this at a societal level, inventing politics into this and saying, how do we create a society for this? But you're you're writing people off at the same time saying, but but not for everyone.

SPEAKER_00: 29:42

Yeah. I I I I get your point. I think maybe maybe I was a bit maybe I was a bit flippant about that, but I think his I think his approach is more about the fact that if you're in that That last cohort, you're not the leader. Yeah, okay. If if you're if you're ignorant and unwilling to learn, you're not the leader that he is trying to teach. So that's what I meant by that.

SPEAKER_01: 30:13

Yeah, that's great. Good clarification.

SPEAKER_00: 30:14

Yeah. And yes, and and by that, he's also disqualifying someone.

SPEAKER_02: 30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

Right. To your point, right? You said, which is which is interesting. I never thought of that, right? Because we think the way one thinks is not the way everyone else thinks. Now, one is born with certain tendencies. And we discussed this, right? Virtue is sometimes based on things that are not in your in one's control. And so one could tend towards helping others. And that's not a choice. You're not born with that choice, just happens. Now you could you can choose to act on it and choose not to act on it. That's choice, but it's contingent free will. And so you had the good fortune of being someone who likes to help people, and you chose to act on that. You chose psychology, and then you your life has been a collection of such actions. Now there is someone out there who doesn't have the same underlying underpinning, doesn't believe that helping others is actually a thing to do, now that person is gonna have a harder time of it. That person has an easier time of it than uh someone who does not have the nature, but for the one who does not have the nature, but walks on the path, that is a life well lived. There is more effort required to do it. Right? And so there's there is there's something to be said about that. And so going back to what Aristotle talks about eudaimonia, having all the things, the looks, the the money, the the education, the good fortunes, the the wherewithal to follow philosophy, to meet challenges, learn from them, and grow, or you have all of those things and you stay on the path and you make it, you know, that is eudaimonia. And uh some people have a harder time to get on it, some people have an easier time to be on it. But the harder it is, the more the satisfaction there is. And that's where stoicism, you know, when we talk about stoicism, that's where that comes in. The harder it gets, the better the fruits are.

SPEAKER_01: 33:06

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 33:08

So that's uh you made a very good point. So I want to underscore that. Um, having the ability, not having the ability. Um, so uh I'm I'm gonna move on unless you have something else to add, and then we can go to the means. Do you have anything? So he says, Virtue then is a state of character concerned with choice, lying in a mean, that is the mean relative to us, this being determined by a rational principle, and by that principle by which man of practical wisdom would determine it. So Aristotle uses logic in a very weird way to come to answers. So he says, What is right action? Well, right action is the action that a man who is virtuous will perform. Well, who is a virtuous man? Virtuous man performs right action. What is right action? Right action is the action that a virtuous man would perform.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

Yeah, at least right there is why 25 years ago I stopped reading philosophy.

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

I think the what he says is the most of the good stuff is between the big stuff that he says. Right. And that's why one cannot read philosophy in in blurbs, you know? There's no one line it, you have to walk the long winding path. It is long and winding indeed. It is, my friend. Absolutely, absolutely. So what he says is that he so first of all, the and all of this, you could this is all a manual. So it says, How do you know that you are on the right path? Right? Well, because if you were a wise man, you would already know, right? Now, I'm not a wise man, I'm starting. How do I know this is the right path? He says, the first thing to do is there are certain actions and passions that are wrong. Don't do them. Let's start there, right? You one doesn't have to be wise to know what is wrong. There's some terrible things that one shouldn't do, right? Now, again, we are not talking about psychopathy, we are talking about neurosis, right? For the most part. You're you tend to do certain things, you we tend in certain directions, we we tend usually towards cowardly acts, we tend usually towards lustful acts, we tend usually towards passions and appetites. Of all of those things that are extremes, you know, and those are things that one should not do. And those things, for the most part, are outlined pretty well in any religious text, you know, you find those thou shalt not. Right, yeah. And there's a reason for that because forget about being on the path of virtue and achieving the common good, just don't be a terrible human being.

SPEAKER_02: 35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:50

Right? Let's start there. Simple, right? So then he says, once you have figured that out, right? Then let's start talking about how do you now do the things that actually get you on the right path. Right? The big number one and most important step is don't be Nero, don't be one of those terrible guys, and you know, don't be Hitler, you know. And then so you don't do those kind of things. And then you'll find yourself that it gives you much improves your chances significantly. Right now, uh, you know, obviously I gave you big examples, but there are lots of other folks. Ignorance unfortunately leads to terrible acts as well, and then psychopathy does, which that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about rational individuals. What do you think about that? What get have you have you found that in your life where you know you know this is terrible and you can step away from it, and doing that has you know been well, not even personal experience, but what do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 36:50

Uh I I think that um let me I'll get there in a roundabout way, maybe, but uh the idea of intuition and how we we lose touch with of intuition at a very early age because we're told no, don't stop, or yeah, so we're you know, the people around us or society is telling us what is right and what is wrong, whether that is but but you're ignoring your intuition, which is actually probably gonna tell you what is the proper response. Um and and I think as adults we grab towards trying to fill our needs, our wants, our whatever it is, it's uh it's this void or gap that is left from our childhood. And it's because we we aren't actually in touch with our intuition. Yeah, and and I think that intuition right is where this comes in of does that make sense? How does how's that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00: 38:04

Yes, that intuition is also a tendency, tendency sometimes is not in our control, but what you're talking about is a different kind of intuition. And you know, there are I I can say that for the most part, we we we all have it and we should we should listen to it. We find ourselves in circumstances and sometimes out of choice where we we don't listen to our intuition, and even that listening to the intuition part you can also train, and also depends upon the feedback that you get and how that makes one feel. It's very important to stay true to that.

SPEAKER_01: 38:39

Yes. Yeah, how does it make one feel?

SPEAKER_00: 38:42

Yeah, right. Good acts, and and also so the secondary gain that you get from those acts also you need to one needs to understand how that makes one feel. I think for most rational individuals, most people suffering from neurosis, I think there is an understanding, a deep sense of satisfaction or disquiet one gets with certain actions and the repercussions of those actions. And the and the and you can steer yourself in the right direction. At least, you know, the they they they show this in movies and cartoons all the time. They have a devil on one side and an angel on the other side, and it's kind of you know, they're having conversations. I think people have that. And as a matter of fact, people have more than just one devil and one angel, you know, you have all sorts of different personalities and you're drawn towards one or the other, and these are all just versions of you telling you do it, don't do it. Um and yes, if you're younger and you're let and you're ignorant, one is more likely to stray towards things and try it. I mean, that's the time you get to try. I mean, these extremes. That's a great point. The the devil and the angel are the actual extremes of this. You gotta find you and your head is in the middle, right?

SPEAKER_01: 39:50

Exactly it, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 39:51

Yeah, yeah, and maybe maybe that's where this comes from. Maybe you know, I you find a lot of things you can trace back to Aristotle and Plato. Yeah, right? Yeah, you're being pulled in these two extremes, you gotta find the middle ground.

SPEAKER_01: 40:02

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm sure that yeah, that is uh put that on a t-shirt somewhere. That's very much it. Um just recently I I just heard how uh that there's a benefit to talking to yourself. Yeah, that's not just in internally, but actually talking to yourself, and that might be weighing out the different, you know, the devil on one side, the angel on the other, and maybe you're coming out somewhere in the middle. But if you're actually asking yourself out loud, like Jeremy, am I really doing this right now? You know, you know that it might not be the right action that you're about to take. Yeah, and and by asking yourself out loud, it might actually stop you from taking that action.

SPEAKER_00: 40:43

Oh boy, I intuition has saved me so many times when I was younger from doing stupid things that I shouldn't be doing, finding myself in situations I shouldn't have found myself.

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

Um, and uh but I tell you, doing the right thing may be painful in the moment, but it is always better in the long run.

SPEAKER_02: 41:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 41:03

And that therein lies what you were trying to say, that that intuition part, right? Um, which takes you away from doing the wrong thing. The doing the wrong thing feels good in the moment, but boy, those things come to bite you. And then pulling yourself out of that is the way to go. And like, you know, the even if you don't like what's the word they use, right? These are uh acts that you do that lead to bigger acts, and so they are like um gateway, gateway actions, gateway drugs, right? These are all things that you do to kind of get there. You one needs to stay away from that, at least early on, you know, um in your in one's life. It's you're better off staying away from things that could lead you down the dark path dark path uh early on. It's better to just abstain, abstain from those things and then try it on later.

SPEAKER_01: 42:00

Yeah, which is fascinating because you if you think about kids in pure pressure and the things that you know, I I I see a lot of in work um with with folks who are trying to combat school bullying. Oh, yeah, and to think like there are if you use that as kind of the extremes. I mean, there are folks who there are probably kids there who recognize that this is bad and are doing it anyways. There are ones who recognize it's bad and choosing not to say anything because they don't want repercussions, and then there are the ones who just know this isn't right and I'm gonna do something about it and stand up for that person. And that is the hardest thing as a child to have to come to terms with of oh, am I actually gonna put myself out there and risk potential social suicide? Yeah, standing up for the kid who's getting bullied.

SPEAKER_03: 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

And so, like at such a young age, we're actually almost like positioned to be making the wrong choices because of the peer pressure around us, yeah. Fear of how the mass will respond, should I go against it?

SPEAKER_00: 43:06

Yeah, yeah, I see your point. And so there's a bit of nuance there too, right? Because sometimes the bully is the one who is undergoing some sort of psychological trauma and and and they are meeting it out, and that's that's well known. But we are talking about the silent masses, the others who are around, right? And so one most one would like to put themselves in the shoe of the of the aggressor or the victim, but what about the silent spectator? Most of us in life are in the silent spectator space, and we are all making a choice, even to stay quiet is a choice. And so at least participate, not participating in the in the bullying, right, uh, is a choice. And that that is there's a lot of intuition there. The kids who do it know they've most of them would say that, you know, yeah, what they did was not right. They knew they were hurting the other person. Yeah. Um, and so that's that that's that's a that's a great easy example. But even as adults, man, we see it all the time. You know, we see it all the time. We find ourselves in all these situations, too. You know, should you say something, not say something, at least, at least again, going back to what Aristotle says, forget about being a virtuous agent. At least don't be a jackass. Like, don't be a bad neighbor. What I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 44:20

All right, so it's that's a great place to start, right? Yeah, don't be a jackass. You can start there and move and work our way up.

SPEAKER_00: 44:26

That's right. Then we can figure it out. Um, so uh so then he goes into these. So now once you've done that, you're not a jackass anymore. Now you want to get yourself to be a better human being. What do you do? And so now he talks about all of these uh these excesses and the and deficiencies and the mean in between. The mean is where uh virtue lies, and these virtues, the Aristotelian virtues, far outnumber the Hellenistic virtues, the cardinal virtues, the virtues that when what you distill everything down to, it comes down to justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom. But he talks about all these other states of virtue, and then this does become quite a laborious task down the line, Jeremy, when he when he goes into each of these in further detail, you know. But now this he just gives you a prelude. So, what do you think about those? So he starts um with the most important one here. Um the uh the two most important ones. He starts off with the cardinal ones, courage and temperance.

SPEAKER_02: 45:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 45:31

So do you want to take it from here? Because this is um some nice juicy stuff here.

SPEAKER_01: 45:37

Yeah, so um so we're talking about courage. Let's use courage to start with, right? And where where one would fall on the mean in courage? So what does courage look like if it's deficient, and what does it look like if it's in excess?

SPEAKER_00: 45:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 45:59

And and what are the outcomes, right? And so so let's say so. But courage there, uh falling short would be not saying anything at all.

SPEAKER_00: 46:13

Yeah. And and not just not saying it, like you know, there could be indifference, but not saying it because one is fearful of repercussion. That's cowardice. Too much fear, right? Right? Too much fear, inaction due to fear, having a sense of fear which is more than what it should be.

SPEAKER_01: 46:30

That's right. Yeah, right. Right. Um, so access and too much. Is that um it could be reckless?

SPEAKER_00: 46:44

Yeah, reckless, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:45

Rash, reckless, yeah. Yeah. Um what else?

SPEAKER_00: 46:55

Yeah, those are the ones he chooses as well. When you look at recklessness or rash, um there it is action without an understanding of the fear. There is the one is supposed to have some fear, but you have a you have a subnor almost an absence of understanding the fear that exists. And then courage is then the mean, and what it is, is having the right amount of fear, but doing the right action, doing the right thing despite having the fear, right? Because if you have too much fear, then you are you you cannot act, and that's cowardice. If you have no fear and you're doing actions, that's recklessness, and then courage happens to be in the middle. So that's that's courage. And then um, and so that this is um there's also a confidence aspect to it, right? The a rash person is usually overconfident, right? Overconfidence means that one doesn't have an understanding of the risk. Yeah, right? Uh so being confident means one understands the risk, but one has practiced, one has been there. And most of these actions, like courage, doesn't just happen in actions that one hasn't part hasn't partaken in. So you have to partake in that action before, learn from it. You'll be initially fearful of the action, and then over time with practice, you get more, you you develop courage. Courage takes time.

SPEAKER_01: 48:19

Right. Courage takes time, that's right. Yeah, and confidence is really trusting in yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 48:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 48:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 48:26

And when you say trust in oneself, trust in oneself to do what? To not do the wrong thing. And because you're fearful of the wrong thing, that's why you don't want to do it, right? Right. Um, so that's that that's that's beautiful. I I uh you know, I I like what you said, it's trusting oneself. Um, and so then the second one is uh with regard to uh pleasures, right? That is where um I mean if it comes to pleasure and pain, right? The the mean is temperance, says the excess is self-indulgence. That's usually where we find most of us being drawn to you know, too much of good food, too much of good time, too much of alcohol, too much of whatever, right? Too much of that's where self-indulgence comes, too much of luxury. Uh temperance is a moderation of that. Not too much, not too little. You don't want to be you don't want to abstain. Because if you abstain and and you don't participate in anything, then you're more like an insensible kind of a person. Now, hard to find humans like that. You know, you really have to be, you know, someone who by choice, you know, chooses not to participate in anything luxurious. If you don't find that, uh it it could be privation for other gains, secondary gains, like um I don't know, um, you know, religious reasons or whatever, right? But um, but usually you don't find them.

SPEAKER_01: 49:47

But even then, then they're probably filling that with something else.

SPEAKER_00: 49:50

Uh with something else, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it could be misguided uh things to uh reason. The secondary gain could be if you do if you you know you you do this, then you know you get some eternal happiness, and if you don't do it, you'll get sin or something, you know, things like that. Um but nonetheless, uh so temperance is the midpoint between the self-indulgent behavior uh and then this insensate person. Um and you got to be somewhere in the middle. Uh that means you participate uh in whatever they're being offered to you. Like the good example is that there's a uh you're at a party, and uh there is uh there's this there's this very tasty side dish that's being passed around, and you know you're not constantly wait uh going toward the dish and hoping the dish comes to you and you don't take too much into your plate when that thing is in. So if it comes to you, great, you take your fair share, you just eat a little bit and pass it along. And if it's if it comes to you and it is over, by the time it gets to you, you don't get like you know, disgruntled and leave. You know, so that's temperance. You participate, but don't go crazy. Now, uh then he talks about uh money. He says when it comes to giving and taking money, uh there are two ways of doing this. Uh, there is small sums and large sums. If it is large sums of money, that means uh you know you are this is this deals probably with um with uh you know uh contributing to a bigger cause, like you're not pro not for profits, for example, and things like that. So there's you are a liberal person, you have liberality. Um and uh and there's these are all just words now. You know, if you do too much of that, you're you're it you're a prodigal person, it's prodigality and things like that. And that's probably in the you know, why would someone do too much of uh of giving away money? There could be many reasons for it. There's usually for secondary gain, notoriety, things like that, you know. Uh it could also be for things that are actually not of consequence, not of moral consequence. Like a lot of people want their names on buildings and all sorts of stuff. And so yeah, that's that's probably prodigality. And then there's meanness where you have the wealth, like but but you hold on to it, like Scrooge, right? So Scrooge is a mean guy, in meanness, you know. Liberality is somebody you're in the middle where you have the wealth, you're ready to put it into good use. Um, but you're also you also understand the the um the fact that you shouldn't waste it. So you have a little bit of wealth. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 52:26

Well, I I mean I think that it's uh I mean I agree with that. I was thinking of different examples, and and I think that there's a lot of secondary gain with those who have wealth and choose to um choose to donate a a lot, but um but but at the same time, like I wonder like you know, the Gates Foundation set up to do good in the world, right? I mean I can truly believe that you know um that there was good intention there, but I'm also positive that there was a great tax break by setting up a foundation like that. And you know, I'm I'm witness to uh you know someone with billions of dollars who donates and donates all the time and is very much setting up healthcare networks around the world, like doing great things, but it's but there's a lot of secondary gain there. I mean it's you know it's a tax play.

SPEAKER_03: 53:31

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 53:32

So when you when you're at when you're at that level though, the question is is like how do you what they are doing might be generosity, maybe it actually is somewhere in the mean. Because it you know, that secondary gain, I don't know if you can get away from that, like in unless you're just giving it all up. Right? I mean, and again, maybe we get into the individual differences, like that person, you know, these people are well intended in terms of w what they want to do, but but if it's without secondary gain, then how how could you possibly ever move forward? Yeah, well, I have this billion dollars, I'm not gonna give away the entire billion, but I'm gonna you know donate 10% of what I make every year or 20% because I don't need a billion dollars to live off of, so why don't I donate half of it? Um yeah, I don't know. Uh what you think?

SPEAKER_00: 54:26

I don't know. I I struggled with this one because we find ourselves in the extremes very quickly. Like you know, Gates Foundation, everybody's know knows about, but you know, the chance that anybody's gonna turn into Bill Gates, I mean that the the odds are seven billion to one, right? Or to seven, I guess. I mean, there's seven the richest people in the world, and he's in that. So, you know, it's almost virtually impossible for that to happen. Uh, and once it you one doesn't become Bill Gates without completely straying from a certain path. Like, you know, he's uh you don't get there. There's a choices that one has to make. Now, I you know, so again, let's not I don't know if billionaires even billionaire in and of itself is uh is an excess, right? Yeah, so I don't know. I I think it's it gets even harder beyond a certain point. It gets even harder to participate in the common good. I think there's a certain amount of money beyond which it gets even harder to do that, and I think happiness drops off significantly as well, beyond a certain point. These men are probably miserable, uh, and unfortunate. It's like a curse, you know, it's like Midas' touch kind of thing, you know. Everything you touch, everybody you come across, everybody wants you for your money. There's really nothing else that you know you get. No one sees you as a person. Um, so so that's a problem. But if you look at everybody else, I think there is um the ability to participate with in with with liberality. If one has m met all their needs, some of their wants, and now understands that their money can be put to good use in order to be a virtuous agent. You see, it's it's not necessarily billions of dollars, it's not about curing malaria, it is more about using your money to get on the path.

SPEAKER_01: 56:24

Yeah, intentionality, being thoughtful about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and knowledge, choice, secondary gain, consistency. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00: 56:34

The same virtuous agent. If you're using your money doing that, right? I think that's what that means. But if if you have made a billion dollars, unfortunately, my friend, like that, you have strayed that path. You know, you have done many of those things. Those certain actions and passions that are wrong, you've already performed them. That's how you got there. There's no way to make a billion dollars without having tipped the scales completely towards the the dark side. Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to do that. Yeah, uh, well, so that is liberality, and then there is a in in personal interactions, there's being magnanimous, and that is with with small sums of money with with friends and and things like that. Um, now one could be uh uh where is the yeah, so one one could uh one could be somebody who's magnanimous, um, or uh magnificence, I guess is what he calls it. Sorry, magnificence, or magnanimous, magnificence. Um, and you could see that in people, you know, you are paying small checks, or you know, you you you throw uh you you help your neighbors out or whatever. There's small sums of money whenever you spend, you spend tastefully. You know, when you're out in a party, you're not really showing off. I mean, this is not you know buying bottles of uh Dompery on, you know, in in a club for everybody, you know. That's that's that's stupid things like that, you know, or making it rain, as they say, all this nonsense. You know, you're not doing that. You do that, that means it's tasteless vulgarity. Um, and then you can be really cheap. You know, you don't want to be cheap either, you know. Wherever you, whenever you are out with somebody, you know, you're saying, you know, hopefully that guy takes the check, you know, or whatever, things like that. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, you see that. Yeah. Um so the magnificence, you want to be a big you want to have magnificence in this. Um, but again, you know, both of these things, liberality and magnificence, both of those things are predicated on one having a certain amount of pocket change to be able to do that. And and and that's why I feel like it's that's why this doesn't have the same level of uh uh of uh uh uh what should I say the it's not elevated to the same level as courage and temperance. One can be impecunious, you know, poor, and but have courage and and temperance. Uh but one uh you know, but one you know cannot have magnificence or liberality if one doesn't have money. You see what I mean? I don't think money really gets you on the path of uh of of happiness. I think one can be courage, temper, courageous, temperate, just, and not be wealthy. So that's why it's not in the cardinal virtues. Um, and then uh he talks about honor and dishonor, right? I guess uh you one needs to have enough um predicate predilection for honor, and that's proper pride. If you think too much of yourself, it's empty vanity. And if you are just have no honor about yourself, you know, I think this is more about self respect respect, right? You have undue humility. Um, yeah, what do you think about that? I think this one is a little bit uh challenging because uh we live in a world, I think a lot of this. Has got to do with um religiosity. It says so you know one should have no pride. And so we are usually very we we all certain generations tend towards humility a lot. I don't know what you think about that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:18

I think humility comes with uh with wisdom and age. Um hopefully pride is something that uh I don't know. I I think they I mean it's it's uh it's an interesting thought to say if you're doing these good acts and you're on this path, could you you know we're saying you're gonna feel good from doing these acts over and over again and then that'll uh accumulate over y'all in terms of living a good life. Can you not then have pride in that you've done that?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:02

Right. Yeah I mean self-respect, right? If you if you change pride to self-respect, right? Shouldn't you have some self-respect? Man, if you're walking this path, it's hard. You know it's hard. Yeah, it's so much so easy to stray off the off the path to be a jackass. I think the um the side where uh where you really think too much of yourself, your vanity, you know, that's a problem. Right, right. You know, you you that's an extreme for sure. That's an extreme. And I think we are we're more likely to be on the vanity side of this than on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:44

You see what I mean? Oh man, I'm a cardiologist kind of vanity, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:47

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:48

You see what I mean? You know, I'm a CEO kind of vanity. And I think that is a problem, or uh, you know, several several hundred million dollar vanity.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:00

Uh uh you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:02

Yeah, yeah. Look, I think that people get um I mean t titles can hold up a lot of us, uh thinking, well, that's the that's where I need to go, that's where I need to get to, and I have it, and I'm uh and I'm you know, and then it gets into power and hierarchy, and the none of that matters. It's all it's all made up. I mean it exists, it truly exists, but it's all in existence, you know, it's uh a figment of what we create that doesn't actually matter. At the end of the day, it's a niche and Jeremy talking here together. Doesn't matter what your title is or what my title is or what we're doing, you know, uh what my level is at this organization.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:52

What that's not the right path or the path to happiness existed way before CEOs existed.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:03

So CEOs is not the way to get to the on the right path. You know, so but again, being on the path leads to a sense of self-satisfaction, self-respect, and one should be able to carry that forward. One should not also be too humble when it comes to that, you know? Um, because that can also be annoying, especially especially if you feel that you're on the right thing, but you just don't express it. But but now, whatever be the reason for not doing so, I don't know what that reason would be. But if you're on the right path, man, yeah, I mean, talk about it, have proper pride, have self- have proper self-respect.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:36

Um again, we're talking about the mean here. We're saying somewhere in the middle, somewhere around there. Absolutely. Trying to avoid those extremes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:43

Yeah, and uh, if you want to you want to uh deviate towards one of the one of the extremes a little bit, it'll probably be more to the humble side than to the vanity side. Right, right. You don't want to wear a t-shirt that says you have arrived, and then pop bottles in a club. Um all right. Uh then he talks about yeah, ambition. So uh you know, you know, the the middle place are ambitious people, and then there are people who are um unambitious, but there is no real uh the person who's too ambitious, and there's no real term for that, but we know what we know what what he means. We've all been there. Um right? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:31

Yeah, well, I think no, I mean people can lack direction um or passion, um or you know, an innate desire to do something. Um and it's interesting the concept of ambition in this yeah, the challenge of that. I mean, the word ambitious can easily find you in one end of this extreme, right? I mean, it's yeah, you know, there's a lack of, or are you too ambitious? And then what does that look like in our world? I mean, too ambitious could be you know, a workaholic, it could be leaving you know a whole bunch of dead bodies behind you, a bull in a china shop, getting your way, you know, I'm gonna get that promotion and I'll throw anyone under the bus that I need to to get there, right? Yeah, and we've all seen that, right? I mean, cutthroat cultures, you know, the the big five consulting firms dropping, you know, cutting the bottom 10% every year, and it's just an expectation. Um these are things that you know that people go in there are highly ambitious and in and maybe to a fault. So where is that where is that then that that middle ground for you? Yeah, what do you think? Where where's the middle ground for ambition?

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:49

It's hard. I think the the this is not about an ambition and isolation, right? Having the desire to walk the path, you know, is ambition. Yeah, one, you know, there's an ambition to walk the path. And if one is uh trying to walk the path and and that's the ambition one has, that has to be the right ambition. Now, yes, you can stray toward uh being too ambitious in walking the path, but I think that would be the right direction to go in, as long as you're walking the path, right? Uh as opposed to being unambitious. I think most of us, when it comes to walking the path, find ourselves unambitious to do so.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:38

Yes. What do you think about the idea of like setting ambition being something like I'm gonna set goals for myself to walk the path? And that that's meaningful intention.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:52

Yeah. Yeah, that would be the what would what would set you to to to create those goals would be the ambition to do so.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:02

Right, right, right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:04

And as you do so, you develop self-respect, and that's proper pride. So it but it comes from from that action. Yeah, that's nice, yeah. I like that. Um correct, yeah. Then he talks about uh you know moods or passions, so then he goes to anger, which is in which is an easy one. We've all been there, right? There's an excess and a deficiency and a mean. So uh he says the the intermediate person is a is good-tempered. Now, good tempered in our sense is somebody who doesn't get angry, actually. You know, in a society, we've decided that anger just doesn't work. Like, you know, you just cannot get angry. Now, I think we discussed this where one doesn't get to choose the emotion. The emotion comes from the part of the brain that one really doesn't have control over. You know, feeling angry, feeling irritated, feeling sad. It's like the the the standing in the line and getting pushed out of the line. And it turns out that you know when you get pushed out, you're immediately angry, irritated, or whatever. But um but you if you don't swing, that swinging is acting on the anger. If you're if you're not if you are a good-tempered person, you'll feel the irritation, you'll turn back and you look and see, oh, it was the old person who stumbled and bumped into me. So I'd you know, I'm not gonna take a swipe at it. As a matter of fact, I might help this person up.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:22

Right, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:24

But if you are an irascible sort of guy, like you get pushed out of the line and you're automatically just blind with rage, you're swinging your hands, and you know, you're saying bad things, you're being a jackass. Um, and then um the the the the deficiency of this is somebody who never who's who never takes to anger, which I I I don't know if a person like I think everybody has a tipping point, but I think there's there's a certain benefit to anger or irritation. One must feel it in certain situations. And I I think anger is a tool that one could use. Obviously, one shouldn't be irrascible, but one shouldn't uh let everything just you know brush it off, kind of, you know, and and I don't know if it's I I don't know if it's a choice. I don't think I I I think you just have the tendency. I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:29

I think we suppress a lot of our emotions, uh and I think that anger is one of the main ones that many of us suppress, and I think that obviously it's used you know, when we think of anger, we're seeing that being used in wrong ways. Well, I I think a healthy individual owns their feelings. If I'm angry, I need to understand that I'm angry right now, and I have a right to be angry. Something made me angry. Am I okay? I should be able to be angry. It's how do you I how do I respond? It's these other it's it's that self-control, it's being a temperate person that's angry right now. I'm not gonna blow up at you about it, but I'm I'm not okay right now. I'm not happy about this. And so, how do you respond? And that's so I think it's to your point, like emotions, we're gonna have them, and we should have them, and we shouldn't suppress them. The one who suppresses it's the one who ends up going postal someday. So it's right. I mean, that's we we need to be one, we need to be in touch with our emotions, and that those are our emotions, by the way. Like you interacted with you and something you did made me angry. I that's my emotion, that's my reaction. But that's not it's not necessarily for you to own. I you know, I mean there's an action there, there's a behavior, how that imp that behavior impacted me, how I choose to respond, though, is also my choice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:05

Yeah, tell me more. So what would be the response and how would that make you how would that improve your chances of walking the path?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:20

Identifying that I'm angry, right? So there's a piece here that one says, first off, it's about it's about that uh self-awareness to understand that I'm angry. And actually, you know, the a great concept that comes into all this is emotional intelligence, right? I understand my emotions, I understand that you have your own emotions, I understand what our you know, what our relationship emotion, what the relationships are, and and I can read the room, I can read social cues, I can understand too that like maybe you know, there are visceral responses we have when we're in a heated moment, right? And so like I can see right now Anisha's angry. What am I gonna do? How am I gonna choose to respond in that scenario? So I think that there's a lot to um it's about you know self-regulation to start. I mean, awareness and regulation, and then to be on the path of saying the the the right thing to do potentially is to share where you're at in a way that isn't accusatory. It's Anish, when you do this, this is how I feel. Yeah. This is what it made me feel when you just said that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:39

I mean, that's a that's a in in organizations, that's a feedback tool, right? I mean, it's a common feedback tool that's being taught by, you know, there's a model there. But when we're talking about just engagement and interacting with people, it's it's first understanding how did this impact me? How am I feeling right now, and then sharing that. But it's all about this is how I'm impacted by your actions, because I don't know what you intended from your actions. I can only make assumptions.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is so the angler is a tool if you use it to your benefit. That means, like what you said, one if one gets angry, it's very easy to know when one is angry or not. Then one needs to break it down. Obviously, lashing out and being seeing red and being irate is not uh is not a good response. You know, that is uh you have to be really down on that the the vertical development to be in that state, right? Uh that's being a jackass, you know, that you shouldn't do. Now, everything else, though, like as you described, is figuring out what happened and learning from that and making a better tomorrow, right, based on why you felt a certain way. Just suppressing it and saying I shouldn't feel this way is not the right thing to do. That is being in irrascible. That is the deficiency of this problem. If you felt anger, you know, it's justified. You got to figure out now, as long as you were a calm person, you're temperate, like you said, and you didn't lash out. Now figure out why and then fix it and make the world a better place tomorrow. Channel that anger. Channel the anger, find a solution. Is that what you were trying to get at?

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:24

Yeah, I think so. And and it's not just about me, right? It's if if we're doing this right, if we're using it correctly, potentially we're both benefiting from the right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:35

Correct. And it can it can all the same thing could apply to a larger body, like the your community, the the political environment, whatever, right? You can feeling anger and then working in that direction gets you somewhere. Anger is a tool for that reason. I I that's a that's great. I love that. I love that. Um, so then um he talks about uh truth. And so the uh the person who speaks the truth, um, and now this is not about you know, it's the does this make make me look, does this dress make me look fat? You know, that kind of you know, there are there are times you you don't want to be the kind of person who you know exaggerates every time, I guess, or you know, you all I'm gonna say whatever's on my mind, you know, or whatever I believe is the truth. I'm gonna say, yes, you you look fat in this dress, you know, as opposed to you gotta judge the situation, man, and then be tactful about that. You know, it's not about saying, it's not about the veracity of it, it's uh it's more about the the circumstances around it. So you could be a truthful person, you could be somebody who's boastful, and then I think this is more to do with oneself as well. Um, one could be what's called mock modest, uh somebody who you know would say things that is untrue about them or about the other person. You know, I don't know how how much that happens, but I I find I find people very binary about truth and lies, which it's all opinion in a way. And I think the circumstances matter.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:11

Right? It's the it's uh, you know, uh there's a serial killer standing outside. I think these are all experiments. There's a serial killer standing outside the door, and he has a knife in his hand, and uh he asks you, you know, he's he's he's chasing somebody, and that person runs into your house and you close the door, and this person's outside the door knocking, saying, Is this person in your house? You know, there are all these uh psychological experiments, the physical philosoph philosophical experiments about, you know, should you say something, should you intervene, you know. It's all ridiculousness in my mind. You know, obviously, don't open the door, man. Call the cops. Um, okay, with regard uh to pleasantness in giving amusement, uh, this is someone who's ready-witted, uh, who has a disposition for ready wit. And I think this is important too, because you could be someone who is uh a buffoon, or you could be someone who's boorish, or you could be somebody who has ready wit. And I think it goes a little bit more than just that, because one could be somebody who is um uh who is uh you know, you can use wit as a weapon, and you could uh, you know, there's a lot of bullying comes from that. Uh or you could uh be somebody who is very um uh you know, like a boorish person who just there's no smiling, there's no laughing. You've been around people like that. I've seen people like that too. You know, too serious, right? And a lot of people mistake stoicism for that. Like, no, stoicism is actually a lot of ready weight, you know. Um, so uh uh in Sparta, uh you know the term laconic comes from Laconia, which is Sparta. And uh laconic was is somebody who actually doesn't say much. Well, it actually doesn't necessarily mean laconic in the sense that someone doesn't say much, they're they're stoic. That's that's these are all quote unquote stoic, these are all misrepresentations of this of the word. In Sparta, they would the the whole thing was about coming up with uh a one-liner. It's like you know, your uh like it's one of those yo mama jokes, you know, it's like it's a one-liner, and they would um it was all about that. They would they would they would think a lot before they would say it because they wanted to say something in as few words they can, it would have the punch in it, like they'd be all just one-liners. So it is ready, wit. You know, it's just about right, as opposed to being a buffoon where you don't think of anybody else's feelings and you keep saying things and whatever, uh, or somebody who's bullish. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:48

Yeah, I think um I think uh you know, earlier it's actually reflecting on wit and earlier in my career. I think I used sarcasm a lot in sarcasm in group meetings um to lighten the mood.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:06

Um, over the years I've worked with different groups where some leaders are using it all the time with their teens. And I I've come to start to question that that might actually not be all that helpful. Like it might even be a defense mechanism or deflecting, instead of having the some of the tougher conversations that they need to have, they're using this, and and I think it you know, in in some ways, you know, I think there's again within moderation, it works. And then, but if you're overusing it, yeah, I think it's because you're probably avoiding something else.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:48

Yeah, yeah, it's a defense mechanism. I see what you mean. That the the uh the ready-wit, especially when it comes to Laconic and Sparta, the the movie 300 has a few of those lines. So the uh Xerxes uh tells them, or I think it's not Xerxes, it is uh one of the generals or somebody tells the Spartans when they're lined up at the at the hot gates and says that um you know we you your 300, we have um you know 10,000. You know, our arrows will blot out the sun. And uh so then uh um uh the the reply that the Spartans give is then we'll fight in the shade. So it's like that, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:39

So these these are the kind of one lines, but yeah, so ready with. But I but I get your point. Sarcasm actually is is is is cool. A lot of people use sarcasm as a way to diffuse tension, and uh, but that's more of a defense backerism. Yeah, I get your point, and not always take involved. Um yeah, so these were these are all and then there are other ones like this. There's one in which you could be friendly or you could be an obsequious kind of person, uh, or a flatterer, you know. So the difference between someone who's friendly is they're appropriately friendly, obsequious person, um, they they are just obsequious, you know, they they have no end in in sight, they're just that way to everybody, you know, they're just always you know saying good things about someone, even though that person may not necessarily be true, or they're always just you know bowing down to people, they really don't have that much of self-respect. There's no there's no aim for them to do that. Flattery, though, for flatterer is someone who does it uh because there's an aim inside, like you're you're you know, you're saying these things because you want something in return. Um yeah, those are uh then there is um oh yeah, this is this is a cool one. So then um righteous indignation is the mean between envy and spite. I think this is a this is a cool one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:02

So say that again.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:04

Righteous indignation is the mean between envy and spite. Now, I don't know if spite is the right word or not, but I do get envy though. Envy is a is is a is a it was a tough one for me. It took me a long time, and even now, like I find myself in situations where I could find myself being envious of somebody, you know, and it's brief now, it's much better. But envy has always been, I think it's it's true for all humans. I I don't think I'm alone in this, but uh let me be the first to admit that I've been envious of people. But envy, I think the difference between righteous indignation and envy is that in righteous indignation, um if one that you know achieves something that is not by the right means, or does something that is not in line of virtue, it's conventionally good but doesn't align with virtue, or achieves merit through actions that are not virtuous, one could uh actually feel indignation saying you know this is not right. Correct? Um so that is righteous indignation. Envy is no matter what, if that person is, you know, like being envious of Nelson Mandela or being envious of Mahatma Gandhi. You you see what I mean? You just cannot see the good, you just cannot see the good thing in there. You think you don't know this, you know, this is terrible. This person should not have gotten you know these accolades, no matter what, like you know, terrible. Why it should have been me? It should have been me leading you know the the the fight for independence or something like that. So righteous indignation is the mean between envy and spite. And I think a spiteful person is someone who uh just straight. I I don't know, man. I'm sure there are people like this outside, but but um so if someone has um uh achieved something using terrible means, um instead of being indig instead of having indignation towards that, you actually rejoice in it. I strange, like I yeah. Uh it's like maybe the um the school shooter who gets uh you know whose face is on television and there's somebody going, you know, look, this person is getting accolades for it, you know, or rejoicing in the fact that this person ended up getting some fame or notoriety because of it. I'm sure terrorists think that way.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:51

Sure. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:53

I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:55

I think that's a good example to actually try to figure out what what are we talking about with spite.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:03

Yeah. So actually getting joy or aggregates or encouraging even terrible acts.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:15

Yeah. Uh and I think you see that a lot nowadays. Like uh, I think social media has also given rise to some stuff like this, right? Like there's a lot of um what is that? Uh there is a very there's is there's a form of um of argument that that you know you you show up and and there is no proprietary in the past um these uh um these debates debates will be moderated and there there would be a there'd be there'd be uh the appropriate response. There's certain things that you wouldn't say or do. And now that proprietary is gone. And now you're an insult comic, you know. Like if you make the other person be terrible, the crowd rejoices, and you're like, you know, you're you're terrible at it. You're you know, you're not being a nice person, but the crowd is rejoicing. And I think that's kind of spite I feel.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:09

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:10

You you all want to be the person who could do that, you know, but you don't want to, you know, it's it's a bad act, but you still rejoice in it. And I don't know, it's weird. I find spite to be weird.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:23

So then uh so then I think we are we we need to, boy, this took longer than we thought, man. We are only we are one and a half hours into this. Boy, you I think we can round this out. Uh so the the so this uh the the thing here is um that one has to know so if one wants to walk the right path, there are two problems with the excesses and the mean. One problem is related to the thing in and of itself. What that me what what I mean is that uh there are some things, some extremes that are more related to the mean than other extremes. The good example would be uh when it comes to courage, uh being um cowardly isn't is a is an extreme that one can really identify with, uh, and it's far far away from the mean of having courage as opposed to being reckless. Reckless is a little bit closer to courage than uh cowardliness is. You rather be on the reckless side or the rash side than be on the cowardly side. This is what I'm trying to say, right? And that's got something to do with courage in and of itself. But the second thing is the individual's tendencies or nature. Some people tend to be reckless, some people tend to be cowardly, and so in order to walk the path, one has to understand the nature of the thing itself and one's own nature. Yes, you see, yeah, and that's that a lot of that introspection has to be done before one starts walking down the path. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:05

Yeah, uh, I think I wrote my my notes, self-awareness, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:10

You really have to know where you are and even what's what gravitates you towards one or the other, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:19

Um, are you do you have a tendency to want to lean towards the reckless? You know, and why? Um and in asking yourself why helps get you potentially closer to the mean in either direction.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:34

Um asking yourself why gets you started, yes, you know, and then and then you actually have to take the steps away.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:42

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:44

I get you, I get your point. Well, Bigan is half done, but you have to ask yourself, figure out who you are. And you have to be okay, you have to be honest with yourself. If one is not coward, if one is cowardly, you you don't have to put on a t-shirt, but you have to tell yourself that's the case, and then start start now understanding that, and then start making yourself kind of walk toward the other direction, right? So I completely agree with you. So part of the path toward virtue starts with avoiding the extreme, most contrary to the virtue, right? Uh, like like cowardliness or self-indulgence when it comes to temperance, like most of us are self-indulgent, and most of us are uh you know are cowards. So we we and it doesn't upon what other people just you have to ask yourself where you are, and you start uh with avoiding the extreme, so you avoid cowardliness, avoid self-indulgence, right? Start there. Um, and then um, and also those two things like self indulgence and cowardliness are also just by the nature of courage and the nature of temperance, is such that most people are on the cowardly side of this, most people are on the self indulgent side of it. So understanding the extreme and then understanding your own. Tendencies and then moving completely away. Start there. And what happens is as you start walking the path towards going the other way, you will find yourself crossing the mean at some point. Right. If you keep going that direction, most people are like, oh my gosh, like, what if I end up on the other side? Well, it's not gonna happen. It's too much of a chasm. You find yourself closer and closer to the right path. And so you find yourself, you know, courageous acts. Uh, you've got to drag yourself away from uh from pleasure. So today I was a coward, tomorrow I'm reckless. It's not gonna happen. Like you know, that's not what usually happens. So, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:42

So I I I think it's um I think those are wise, wise words and great ways to think about it. It's these steps, right? It's acknowledge where you are, and then what what can I do? And they were talking about even the idea of intentional good, like the ambition, and you know, being having goals in mind or ideas in mind of this is what I'm gonna try. Right. It's in and you have to start with one act, right? And then another act, and then you know, in muscle, like muscle memory, over time this becomes more natural. You don't actually have to think about it. But in order to do this, you actually have to be thoughtful and intentional about doing it. You have to know that this is the path I want to be on. And start there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:28

The the qualifiers, you've got to have knowledge, you gotta choose to do it, no secondary gain, and you gotta do it uh consistently, right? And and I think you had said this exercising your virtue muscle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:38

That's right, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:39

That's what you're doing, and that it takes time before the muscle builds, you gotta keep doing it, and so that that's walking the path. Um, very well said, and so you know, things like um simple example would be you know, there's not a cardinal virtue, but uh the uh the magnanimity and pick up the check, you know, simple things like that, you know. Don't or or you know, one doesn't have to listen to this and say, well, you know, I want to do what Jeremy did, and I want to be on the board for not-for-profit. Well, start somewhere else, you know, go to the food pantry, right? Start there, do that once every month, then do that once every weekend, you know. Do find find some things that you could participate in, and then slowly and slowly so you start noticing that you're taking bigger and bigger and bigger steps, you're getting you're getting more liberal, uh, you're getting magnificent. You know, then you find yourself that some of these things now require you to step out of your comfort zone. So now you're you're not as self-indulgent. And then some of these things require you to actually take a step against or stand against something. So you're now you're courageous, you're not cowardly. So you can build on these things. That's a great point. So I just have these four steps that I got. Uh, step one is uh you know, guard against pleasure. What I meant to say by that is you know, if um guard against um a thing that comes easy to you, guard against pleasure. Step two, practice going toward the other extreme. And then while you're doing that, you're gonna come upon this is gonna be hard. If you're gonna have pain because you've chosen against pleasure, and you are doing things that are not um your nature, you're gonna come upon things are gonna happen. And you and you're gonna stumble and you're gonna get off the path, and you're gonna find yourself back on the path again. And each time you do that, you you you are you're getting on the path, getting off the path, you're getting angry, irritated, confused, all of that. You're learning, and that's where you get practical wisdom. And as you gain practical wisdom, you find more opportunities to be on the path.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:43

So going back to the circular logic of Aristotle, like what is right action? It is action that the virtuous man would choose. Who is a virtuous man? The virtuous man does right action. Well, the if if you if you if you walk now in this four steps, you realize first you guard against pleasure, right? Then you start practicing things that are against um your nature, but are but are taking you away from the extreme that you are on, right? And as you're doing it, you're gaining the practical wisdom, you're going from somebody who's doing the right action to becoming somebody who understands the right action.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:24

Becoming somebody who is then, in fact, uh a wise, a practically wise person. And this takes your lifetime. Now, the other thing to realize about this is again, this is no, this is no destination, this is a journey. You know, if you're gonna be on the planet for seven, ten, seven or you know, eight decades, you don't want to get this done in your 20s or your 30s. So, what are you gonna do for the rest of your time, man? You know, you cannot do it. So it takes you in your 40s to even understand that you're that these things are matter, and then it takes you another 30, 40, 50 years to keep walking. And then when you are in your 70s, you find yourself a wise man. Right now, yeah, yeah, hopefully. Yeah, exactly. Right. But I'm saying that and and and if you ask, what does the wise man do? Well, they do the same actions that the 40-year-old person did, right? But just that now it's easier to do them, and you do bigger and bigger of those tasks, you see? So the right action leads you to become the virtuous man, the virtuous man does the right actions, but there is a process along the way, yeah. Right? And then and and with each step, you're getting closer and closer to the mean. The if you do this correctly, in your seventh decade, you're closer to the mean than you're in the fourth decade. Therein ends book two of the Nicomarkian ethics.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:47

All right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:48

Thanks, Jeremy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:50

All right, thanks, Nietzsche.