SPEAKER_02 0:27

Right, everybody, welcome to Resiliency Rounds. This is Resiliency Rounds with uh Jeremy and Anish, and we are discussing Aristotelian Nicomachian ethics. We are in uh book four, and um, we had just finished discussing the elitist virtues that Aristotle has described. Um the our path thus far has been the long winding path through what's called the the great books of the Western world or the great conversation. Uh, we've started with the Platonic works uh and made our way through the Republic, and now we are we are discussing Aristotelian works. Aristotle is a pupil of Plato who uh who broke away from the academia or uh Plato's university and went on his own way, and uh in obviously in his own right as a great man who was a mentor to other great men uh who went on to achieve great things. Um, the uh the most uh famous of them being Alexander the Great. And what uh Aristotle did was uh he was trying to teach these men on how to be good rulers, that means build a uh a philosophical republic inside of them and build the same kind of a republic around them, and so uh his um he is uh blamed as being an elitist. That means he he his works are more geared toward uh the noble men or elite or people of power, but I think there are lessons in there for everybody, including the common man, and the and the biggest I would say the takeaway from Aristotelian works that we have had thus far is what does it mean to lead a good life, uh a good life, which is uh what he calls eudaimonia, which is uh unlike a unlike happiness, the way it's described in the English language, where you have a sense of positive feeling that that is in most of our experiences kind of fleeting. That is kind of happiness inside of your life, with if you eat something that you like, or you watch something that you like, or you buy something that you like, that momentary feeling of positivity is what we call happiness. Uh, we believe that if you string together moments like that on a continuous basis, we'll have a happy life or a good life. Well, it turns out that that is not the case. As you kind of go through life, one realizes that life is not just about having positive um feeling. Uh, as a matter of fact, if you have positive feelings the entire time, that's a version of psychosis, one finds out that um that there are some activities that may be bring momentary displeasure or momentary pain, but it adds to a lifelong feeling of achievement, sacrifice, and that adds to happiness, not inside of your life, but with your life. And the more such episodes or events one has in their life, and they circumvent those events uh with their own gumption, their own ability, and they learn something from it. Another way of saying it, they come out of a crisis, and when you come out of a crisis, you learn and you mature and you evolve. That's what leads to a good life. Uh, and so the the the way to a good life, the this journey of sacrifice, this journey of of uh of death and rebirth, uh has to be in a certain direction. It cannot be in the direction of evil, it has to be in the direction of good. Uh, and that is uh that means it has to be in the direction of virtue, and so that's why we came to virtue through Aristotelian eyes, is similar to the virtues in the Platonic sense. That is, there are cardinal virtues, justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom. And if we align our lives to those virtues, we would be aligning our lives toward a good life or toward eudaimonia. And along with those four cardinal virtues, there are other virtues that Aristotle describes, and those were it elitist virtues um that we had gone through before, and those were liberality, magnificence, uh, and then pride. Uh, and now he talks about social virtues. Uh, and so I'm gonna pass it on to uh to Jeremy, and you could probably lead us on uh from now, Jeremy. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, and um yeah, and just comment on the social virtues is almost um they're kind of like norms of behavior of how we are to behave when we're around other people, which is you know, they're they're pretty straightforward, it's not too deep here. Um, I mean the first one is really like good temper, it's it's the mean in anger, and and his, you know, he's suggesting that the virtuous person does get angry. They get angry at the right things toward the right people in the right measure of how angry you are, and for the right amount of time. It's not something you hold a grudge and you're angry at them for the rest of your life. It's all right, they've done something, you're angry, you're upset, you share that, you you know, you behave in a certain way, and and then you you know you get over it at a certain point. Um, now the excess of anger is irascibility, right? That's quick, disproportionate, um, or lingering anger is how I was describing it, um, or how he describes it. Um and the deficiency here in anger is uh spinelessness. Um how would you what what word would you use for that? And how what word did he use?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, in irrascible is another way of looking at it. Ah yeah. Uh-huh. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Uh good, yeah. Uh uh, yeah, great word. Um, and that's really you know the opposite. It's like failing to get angry when anger is appropriate and just. Um you know, I the person who never gets angry here at injustice um is not praiseworthy. That's correct, right? That's what Aristotle is saying. Uh you know, it's interesting. I actually went through my life, I don't get angry often. But it might be, and so I question myself here of well, is that in that inerascibility, or is that how I live my life, and that it's not necessarily like there aren't a lot of things that just make me angry, or that right, maybe it is that I have a balance there that when when someone deserves me to be angry at them, I am, but it's just rare that it happens. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

That's yes, it makes a lot of sense. As a matter of fact, Aristotle would say that most people who have good temper would be thought of as being in irrascible. The difference is as so uh first of all, the opposite of good temper is in fact irrascibility. That's the that's the true opposite. Most people fall under the irascible prop uh spectrum, more likely to get angry at things that should not make them angry. In irrascibility is not common, it is kind of against a lot of uh pride and ego, where if someone is insulted or their family is insulted, or worse, they still do not get angry. It's very rare to have a person like that. No, a good tempered person, the person who sits in the middle of this, is somebody who gets who gets angry for the right reason. And this is again the Aristotelian good temper for the right reason at the right time for the right amount for you know uh at the right person. And he and if you ask him what is the right time and right amount, well, that it's a it's uh time when a wise person would get angry, you know. So it goes in a circle again, like this is the Aristotelian circle. Uh but we all know in in a sense what that means. Um, so he is a man who is angry at the right things and with the right people, as he ought, when he ought, and as long as he ought, is praised as a good-tempered man, is what Aristotle says. The way another way to look about look at this is one is angry, but we've all had at some point, I don't know, I mean my uh experience has been there's this blinding anger that one loses rationality, and that blinding anger is irrascibility. We've all had it at some point. If one can if one has that blinding anger that there is no thought, action, reflection, action. This is that person standing in line and they get pushed by somebody from behind them and they just turn back and start flailing at them. This is that blinding anger. But you what if one gets pushed, one is irritated, there's this flash, and then they sit and think, okay, you know, let me turn around to see what this is about. They turn around to see it's an old person who just stumbled and bumped into them. They may still be irritated that that happened, but they're not gonna flail at this person, they're gonna probably pick them up and and that anger dissipates, and they're not they're not holding on to this vengefulness, and I'm gonna trip this old person when I step out, you know, or and they are willing to make allowances. Oh, this was an old person who bumped into me. This is this is absolutely expected, you know. How can I be, as a matter of fact, you might feel um shame that you know my gosh, I feel how can I get angry at something like this? Not realizing that that's not an emotion that you control, right? But that wasn't blinding rage, right? So the good-tempered man is not vengeful, he gets angry, but it's not vengeful and makes allowances.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

You see, uh, what do you think about that? Yeah, I like it. Um I actually think like the blinding rage is uh I saw red, right? I everything went red. Um, yeah, the the I think it's the I don't know, a Viking show, or it's probably like How to Train Your Dragon or something, where they talk about going berserker. Yeah, like that's like that's the I saw red, and you just lose it. And um, and I mean in modern day examples of the irascibility is road rage, absolutely right. I mean, it's quick, it's disproportionate, and it leads to bad, like bad decisions, bad behavior, creating aggressive you know, actions, and you know, can lead to dangerous things because it's because of the you know that's uh so disproportionate. Um you can also let that ruin your day, right? Like that should not be something that that lingers for very long. Um yeah, and I think that you know we see modern day examples of this also, you know, you know, the manager who yells and explodes when there are simple mistakes made, um, versus a manager who you know is reprimanding an employee who's you know doing something that they shouldn't be, like that, you know, that their behavior is in fact misconduct, and they're being and the manager reprimands them for it, tells them that, gives them the feedback, and then moves on, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

That's right. Uh great examples. I would say that um even when it comes to this irrascible person, irrascibility is also of certain forms. Uh, there are they are those who are what he describes them as two major forms. One is those who are hot tempered and those who are bad tempered. And if we look at our lives, we we may find ourselves in some of these places, and we already know people who are in these places or in these in this spectrum, I shouldn't call it a place, maybe it's a state. Um, and so the the hot so hot-tempered get angry quickly, and uh usually with the wrong persons at the wrong things, and they but uh their anger dissipates very quickly. So we see this quite a bit actually. Hot-tempered folks are actually very easy to forgive because the minute their anger goes away, there there is no, it doesn't linger, it goes away and they don't hold it's not they're not vengeful. Like hot-tempered people, they are quick to anger, but they somehow they know that they shouldn't have done that. They back away easily, and those people are the of all the angry people that I know, those are the best ones. Um because they don't they don't hold a grudge. It's annoying, you'd rather not them not do that because you're still getting angry at the wrong people at the wrong time and stuff like that, but but but it dissipates quickly, right? Um there are uh of those people, there are those who are choleric. Choleric ones get really angry at the slightest things, very quick-tempered, right? It's like meteoric anger. Like you can be hot-tempered and not say anything and you know, just get angry, get away from the situation, or you can be choleric and really have get red in the face, like a cartoonish anger, you know, which dissipates very quickly. But the ones that are really hard to deal with are sulky people. So these are people who are who are uh who are hot-tempered, they are hard to appease. So usually cheric people, hot-tempered people are not hard to appease, they're actually nice, they're happy people, like you know, they are not usually in trouble. It's only when something's flip them, trigger them. Um, you know, we call it it's it's fun to hang out with people like this because they're very funny at some times, other times they get super angry, and you know, they kind of go. Uh it's like uh Chris Farley characters, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Exactly. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah, they're kind of like that. Sulky people are hard to appease, they retain the anger for long and they repress their passion, but they are looking for revenge, and once they get revenge, then they they are fine, they feel okay. But but they are those they they're the brooding kinds, you know. They they get angry and then they they are kind of you know simmering inside, you know. Um the thing is that if they do not get their revenge, it gets very hard for them to get rid of the anger. These are the people who, when we say, you know, there's too much stress going on in your life, like you know, it eats them from inside, they get sick because of it. Like they have strokes and heart attacks because they keep holding on to their anger. Because Aristotle says a very cool line it is difficult to digest one's anger within oneself, it takes time to digest one's anger within oneself. The choleric person and the hot-tempered person, they digest anger like that. The sulky person just just simmers. I'll tell you, I know what that feels like. I used to hold on to anger for so long. I used to that that was my personality. Like it has changed, and I've come, you know. I hope I've changed. I don't know. Now I I don't hold on to it so much better. Like your mind is so much right. I used to hold on to it for weeks, man. It's crazy. Um, and because the problem is like sulky people are they make the worst people to hang out with, they're the worst friends, they're always in a bad mood, you know. You don't know what's bothering them, you just cannot let go. I I know what that feels like very personally. Um, so they are so these folks who are who are sulky, these are bad-tempered folks who are angry at the wrong things more than that's right and longer and cannot be appeased until they get vengeance or they can inflict punishment. It is the the worst of the lot, right? Right. Uh, you don't want your your um leaders or anybody in your organization at a position of power to be this sulky character. You can have choleric people throw things at you and stuff, even that is terrible. You'd rather have a good-tempered person who is neither vengeful and you know doesn't um um you know and makes allowances. So another way to look at it is good temper also depends upon particular facts, like what is going on in that situation. Is should you have been angry at that? Was that in an insult, really? Like, so give an example, right? The example that you gave is fantastic. You're driving, you get cut off with somebody by somebody, right? Now, is that a is that a reason to get angry?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Sure. I mean, really angry?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I no, but it depends, it depends upon the situation, right? Right, it really does like when you're driving, you know, if if you were driving on the exit lane and you didn't move away and someone has to kind of you know merge into the exit in front of you, or whatever, like there are particulars to this, right? If you were distracted, you know, if you were on your phone and you were distracted, or you were texting while driving, and someone now has to come in. This person's been trying to get into your lane for the longest time or whatever. So I think there are particulars to this. I think knowing the particulars is important because there's a there's a version where you get cut, someone cuts you in front of you, and you don't say anything, and you're like, Yeah, fine. There's another version of you when someone cuts in front of you and you're and you're mad, and you're like, What the heck, man? You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah, well, yeah, I find that um look if you practice some of these virtues too, you would not be angry in a lot of these situations because it doesn't warrant that. And yeah, I mean, I know of a guy who you know, back in the days when I lived in DC, and we're always on the 66 in traffic all day long, and I'm always in the left lane, the fast lane, just driving and frustrated and angry. And he he was old, you know, older and wiser, right? He he went in the far right lane, he put his and he put his car in cruise control at 55, never got angry, was never in a hurry, always got to the same place just as fast as I did, and people weren't cutting them up, but people might be frustrated with him because he's going the speed limit, but he just lived his life going going 55. And and so when you think about like those comparisons, like I was I'm at fault for being angry. It's me, this is my problem, right? So, yeah, no, you know what this is by the way, this is a funny quote that you may or may not get. It depending on you know, this is a movie quote, but when you describe Sulky, this is what came to me. Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepared to die.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

What which which movie is this? Princess Bride. Ah, yeah, he is the epitome of the sulky, right? There he spends his entire life focused just on getting revenge. That's right. That's right. So funny, yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Man, that's so cool. Um, but you know, but but you see, this makes sense. Like when you when you break it down like that, not not all bad-tempered people or not all hot-tempered people are bad-tempered people. And you know, I think it's it's a pretty good, it's a it's a pretty good breakdown of what that could be like. Um obviously the person who doesn't get angry at any situation, right? No matter how uh look, there is a version of this where you could be so detached and understand that really there is no insult. And you can have that elevated sense, but that person is somebody who is who has the f the the the philosophical constitution inside of them. This is like a Socratic individual who can who's drinking hemlock but is not angry at the at the people who put him in that situation. So can you get there? Can you forgive your enemies and not be angry no matter what they have done? Yes. Is that really somebody who is in irrascible and according to Aristotle, the other end of the virtue spectrum? Look, I don't know. I think most people are not Socrates, right? I mean, they're not Nelson Mandela.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

They're not Buddha. I mean, that's uh I mean you bring in Eastern philosophy into this too, and right.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I mean, there's a lot there of overlap in terms of absolutely, absolutely, you're right, and so I think there is a lizard brain feeling of anger that you would get. It's the same like stubbing your toe, you will feel pain, even if you're Nelson Mandela or. Buddha, you will feel pain and you might curse at your foot like for a second, but that doesn't necessarily take you away from the exalted level of whatever you have reached, right? So, but you at that same level, you could probably forgive everybody. Um, I think there is there is something to be said about that. So I don't know about this other end of it. This in irrascible person is difficult. But in Aristotelian terms, if one is a prince or a king, and then there are certain actions that that person has to take, and they cannot be in irrascible because there is a certain amount of honor that comes with being a certain way of certain responsibilities being on your shoulder that you have to then because good anger or good temper makes you take action. Sometimes not taking an action is also taking an action in a way, choosing not to flail your arms at somebody and is is also uh an action if you if you think about it, but doing the right thing as a as a prince as an uh is different from doing the right thing as an in as a private citizen or an individual. And so I think in irrascibility at a private level could be um an exalted virtue, actually, but at a at a statesman level, it may not, because you have the welfare or well-being of the state in your hands, and it's not a private individual's decision. Sometimes you have to be roused to action. Again, social setting, I think I think most for you and me, I think good temper is the way to go. At least the last thing we should be is sulky, the uh or or ill-tempered. And that and and I believe that that you can train yourself out of it. I mean, I would like to believe that that's possible where I have been.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah, uh, and there's a spectrum, and I think you can. I think you can train yourself back towards the mean there, and then you know, and it doesn't have you don't have to be on the sulky, you could be the choleric, right? I mean, it you you can move, and you know, that's part of self-reflection and growth, and yeah, taking perspective.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah, absolutely well said, that's right. This is this is a journey that one can undertake, and of all the virtues, I would say this is the one that they should work on the most. I think a lot of happiness, self, you know, small age happiness, self-respect, good relationships just come from not being a sulky person or a hot-tempered or a or a uh choleric person. Like you can really walk yourself away from this, and all of it is just understanding that no one really means you any harm, like you know, and if they do, there are other ways to deal with it than anger. Yeah, it's fantastic. Um, all right. The next one, do you want to talk about the next one?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Sure. So I I'm calling it uh like a mean and social pleasantness. Um, what would you call it?

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I don't think I don't think the middle part has a name, really. I think the the extremes have a name, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, right, right. So, you know, this this virtue kind of governs how agreeable we are in social life. Um, so the virtuous person is pleasant and agreeable, but not a sycophant. Sycophant, yes, right? They're not um, they will disagree, they will push back, uh, they will have their own opinions, right? Um, they're willing to cause discomfort when it's warranted, um, and by disagreeing and not always just saying, yes, yes. Um, and um, but they yeah, they don't make it a point necessarily to be contrarian, right? So it's they they're trying to there's a middle ground there um where they're not abrasive, contrarian, and they're also not a sycophant. Um and so the access of this would be people pleasing, never disagreeing, flattering, um obsequent uh obsequious. Thank you. I could try that ten times and I'm not gonna get it. Yeah, you'd get it on sycophant. Yeah, well, stick stick with sycophant, which I barely got out. Um, and then uh the deficiency is quarrelsomeness or grumpiness, right? I mean, it's it's disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. And I I know those people, I don't know if you do, but they truly like they're always finding fault, and and sometimes it's because they have to be right and they can't not be wrong. Um, you know, I mean, this is my experience, that's my perspective of sharing of why these people might be that way. But that those are the two, you know, the the two ends of of the meme.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Is that what would you add? Absolutely. I think I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I think there uh there is when it comes to these social virtues, it is about causing pleasure or pain to others in a social setting. So the obsequious person or the sycophant really is is bringing about inordinate amounts of pleasure to the people they are hanging out with, but for really no uh ulterior motive. Like if if you if you tell somebody, if if you are if you if you give somebody a compliment, you're trying to curry favor. Like that that's you're trying to be nice. Now, you could be nice to somebody because you feel like it'll make their day, you could be nice to somebody because you want to improve your relationship with that person. You put you could be nice to somebody because there's a business deal that you want to have, you know, with them or whatever. Of all the reasons, just flattering people because you don't want to inflict any, you know, you don't want to say the truth when you have to say the truth. This becomes this is not telling somebody, hey, you look good in that dress, right? Right? This is this is saying that whatever choices they are making in life are the right choices to make. It is like Epstein's buddies, you know, sending him cards on his birthday saying, Yeah, man, Lolita, this and that, right? That was the great way to go ahead in your life. That is obsequiousness. Those are flatterers. Some of those people are twisted men who, you know, who also had the same proclivities, but a lot of these other folks who wanted, like, you know, the the the the Peter Atias of the world and all these guys, you know, who want to get somewhere, right? They are the you that's where the problem lies. Like, you know, when you're being obsequious to somebody who's doing something really terrible and you're not saying anything, but even in that case, maybe they had an ulterior motive. The ulterior motive was to get something from the guy. Um, because of the so that so those are flatterers or obsequious folks, and then you're right, there is this whole contentious class, which is like, look, I have found myself in those situations at times, right? Someone says something, the only way to get a conversation going is to put a counterpoint. That's the you know, the adhokati diabali, like the the devil's advocate, right? Like you say, you know what, I get that, great, however, and that is different than the person who's constantly picking faults with everything that is being said. They can't accept it, it's not like they're holding on to a position, it's not like you are for gun rights or against gun rights. It is basically you're just against everybody in the world, and that's a difficult person to kind of hang out with. The person in the middle is the person who is who who chooses, who rightly they'll make the right choice about when to bring about pleasure or when to compliment somebody, or or when to when to um you know uh commend them for certain actions. And similarly, will also rightly know when to cause pain, when to push forward, when to push against. Make the right argument against. Therein lies like you have to stand somewhere, right? In this equation, like even somebody who is very diplomatic. I've seen people like that who will never say anything bad about anybody, and those people are actually well liked, by the way. The obsequious person is well liked by everybody, but you know that this obsequious person, everybody says the same thing, man. Like this person probably has no spine, right? Like social virtues come down to kind of this honor thing. Um I think you can find people on both sides of the spectrum in this, really. I think it's equidistant. I've seen contentious people who just argue for for no other reason apart because they're highly egotistical and they believe like they are right or they're mad at the world, and I think that kind of goes hand in hand with being sulky as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

I think, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

And then the other side of this, the the obsequious person, I've seen them who are just they they don't want to take a stand, they are so worried about conflict, and you see that in the workplace too. They just say yes to what everybody everybody else is saying without putting a counterpoint up.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, it yeah, I'll even I saw I have examples of people on the on the sycophants side who are sycophants because they're dealing with a person on the on the quarrelsome side. So the person is so quarrelsome that they're just gonna agree with that person, or you mentioned it, you said ego. There's something about that person that you just can't, you don't really have a choice. You have a great example right now. If you've ever watched a clip of the current cabinet meetings, of what that is, yeah, on those two sides, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I I can tell you, like, personal example, too, by the way, is I worked in an environment where I worked for someone who was always right, always had to be right, and will argue just for the sake of argument. They will take the opposite side of what they believe just to just to be right and to to argue against someone else's point. They also never liked feedback and they didn't like you to share your opinion. So this is the only time I've ever been fired in my entire life, is because I started sharing my opinion of saying of basically calling it out and saying, Well, you know, this is your you know, this is how you see it, but this is actually what's happening, and doing that in front of other people, not a good move on my part, yeah. Yeah, uh, but that's okay, it's not an environment you want to be in, anyways.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

But no, no, because the because the opposite end of this is that that's where it comes down to, right? Like, virtue is a choice, it is it is voluntary action. One day you wake up and you say, Do I'm knowingly doing this, and I know if if you are in the situation and you didn't know, you didn't know that these things exist, that there is a choice, it's not you you don't have will or power to do it. That's a different situation. But once you have will and you have power and you have knowledge of the particulars, and you choose to be obsequious, you cannot say that you're walking on the path of eudaimonia. As a matter of fact, this is a great example of what we were saying before. There is a there is a that it is uncomfortable to stand up against a person like this, especially it's uncomfortable to lose your job, to get fired. But that that that the the path to eudaimonia requires you requires one to do uncomfortable things inside of it, and while you're doing it, you're not happy inside of your life. That moment is not a positive feeling, but later on, when you look back on it, it gives you an immense sense of self-respect. You learned something from that. And now, when you read a chapter like this in the Nicomachian ethics, you can say, you know what, I was in the middle state, I wasn't obsequious. That means, at least in this particular situation, I chose the action that was the virtuous thing to do, the middle state. That is that's why virtue is aligned to eudaimonia because you build self-respect along the way, the right kind of self-respect.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

That's right. So it you know what comes to mind here is actually one of the cardinal virtues, which is courage. That's right. You you need to have the courage to actually choose the middle path here. So if you're not and if you don't, what does that look like? And um, I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Say more. I mean, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Well, I yeah, I mean, I was gonna say that so you you know you and I talked about this offline last week, but um, Sir Gowan and the Green Knight. I just watched the the Green Knight version, right? The movie of that, and um and he's he's he has to make a decision, which is life or death. And if you choose death, that's actually the courageous decision. And and it's so it's it's different than what we're talking about right now with you know, but it but courage comes back to this, which is if he chooses life, it's the cowardly way, and they actually in the movie they go through 10 minutes of what his life, the rest of his life living as a coward would be, and then it comes back to does he choose death or does he choose life?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, and you see, life doesn't give you that opportunity, but you can you can do that, you can actually have a little run forward and see what that feels like. We because if you live long enough, one has chosen the momentary happiness, chosen to move away from momentary discomfort, and it has come back to stay, it stays with you, it it comes back to bite you. And next time you come upon that situation, you're like, No, I know what this feels like, I'm not gonna choose this, and you choose something else which is harder to do, and you respect yourself for it. You're you're you you stand by your morals. But in order for you to stand by your ethics, one has to know what your ethics are. In order to know what your ethics are, you one needs to have a philosophical toolkit, one needs to understand what ethics means. Most of my life, I walked around and I and I had no idea what this, I couldn't tell you what courage was, I didn't give you a definition of it, couldn't tell you what happiness was, I couldn't tell you where where self-respect came from. But now it's with these readings, I have a I have a certain post to which I've kind of tied myself and I know I know the direction, I know what I can come back to, I know the baseline. You see, that's the toolkit, that's the whole process of kind of developing this, is to develop this kind of a toolkit.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

You know what it is, and you know, I I mean I could, yeah, we could talk about this for hours because I have another example too of like just recently where courage has never been just using courage as an example here, but like it's never been top of mind. I've never defined it just like you. And yet I was in a conversation last week where I I'm met with a choice, and at the end of it, my answer was I have to have the courage to do this. And if I don't, then shame on me because this is the courageous thing to do, and this is the right path to take. This is like this is big like life decisions here of like making a decision and saying, if I don't do this, I will be a coward for the rest of my life. Like this is the time, and this is like big decisions, right? I mean, life-changing decisions, and but I've never framed it that way before. But when you have this background in it, you know, and you can you can bring this into you know, these learnings and lessons into your life, it actually makes the decisions not easier, but but you but you're more confident in the path that you choose because you know that you're taking a path, and you know whether or not it's somewhere on that mean of courageous or of temperance, you know, or or um, you know, of anger.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

And and you cannot and you cannot kid yourself anymore.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

That's right. That's right. Yeah, no more lying to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

You cannot, you cannot lie, you know if you're lying to yourself. So that it's and and so you're right that you one needs to be courageous to you take the middle uh state in between obsequiousness and contentiousness. It requires courage, but the same thing is true for all the cardinal virtues, one has to be wise in order to know one is the right time, the right place, the right moment to do this. And so these cardinal virtues, one cannot so one cannot say that oh, this this person has good temper, and that's why they are virtuous. No, one when one has courage, temperance, justice, wisdom, they will have good temper, they will not be obsequious. You see what I mean? That is a percentage, and and and and one never really gets the virtues, one walks in the direction. There's always a more courageous version of you. There's always a better good temper version of you, essentially. That's right. But anyway, let's let's go to the next one if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Um, yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

So the next one, uh, do you want to walk us through this one?

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Sure. So uh, you know, I'm calling the mean and self-presentation, which is like truthfulness, um you know, pursuing truth or falsehoods. Um we've you know, boastfulness comes into this. You know, I I have a quote here, I think, from from the book, which is being truthful both in life and in word. Um so being truthful when something is at stake and when something isn't at stake, right? So um the truthful person represents themselves honestly, neither boasting nor falsely, you know, nor false modesty, modestly understanding their you know, their qualities, right? So it's you know, in knowing their own self too. So um boastfulness could be claiming more than you have, um, or claiming more than you are, like lying in a job interview. Um, I think that's a great one. It's on your resume. Did you really do that? Uh and then so the boastfulness is the excess of this, and the deficiency of this is self-deprivation, which is understating yourself, um, especially like for social effect, right? So putting yourself down and in front of others or just really not giving yourself the credit when credit's due, or these in you know, different scenarios. Um well, uh what would you add to that?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

I mean, this is this one that there's a little bit of a difference between truth speaking the truth about things in general, being like an honest person, right? Um, and being truthful about your achievements. I think this is more in the truthful about achievements category, and that and correct, yeah, right. And the example that you gave about the CV is a great example. The other one, I see this all the time, okay. And um it comes in two forms. I've seen both forms. I find myself more and more in the um in the in the latter one, the the the the form that is kind of what's called mock modest. That means one has achieved, but is unwilling to state that they have achieved. They're it's like understatement uh of act of actions. Now, the reason why I find myself more in that situation is because a combination of two things. One is uh I used to be in this situation, I'm less in it now, but I used to be. One is lack of confidence, and the other one was propriety. I would say because society thinks and believes that understating achievement is more tasteful than overstating your achievements. Right? However, in certain circles, understating doesn't help you at all, like especially in startup cultures and things like that, uh in sales environments, overstating is there's some situations where that's the case. Like, you know, people it all I've seen that wherever trust building is required. Very quickly, overstating achievements is what people do. It's a commercial enterprise, there's a gain involved, right? Uh between if you look at this virtue of being somewhere in the middle where you're truthful about achievements, boasting is the actual extreme of this, which is distasteful. And people are some people boast without any ulterior motive. And I think those folks are are kind of you're like, come on, man, like what's the point? I I I have seen folks, you have probably seen folks like that too, who are always elevating their self-image for no reason, they're always talking about something, either some car or some experience or some woman they dated or whatever, right? From the watch they want for no they you don't it's not that they want to oppress you for because you will then give them something or they will gain something out of it, they just hype all the time. It's like a hip-hop song playing on repeat, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

That's right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

And with the women in the cars and the wheels and all of that, right? Now that person, I don't know, I think society finds them the most distasteful. Like I you it'll be hard for them to have friends unless their friends are sycophants, which is a whole then they're not truly friends. The the other one is boasting with ulterior motive, and that one is either you do it for honor or reputation, right? Uh, where you say I've done all of these things and that's why I deserve a place on the board, or I've done all these things, that's why I deserve this this award, or whatever. Society grants them those things, or you do it for money, where you say, I've done all these things, so I can give me your business, right? Either way, that is also if if those are not truly one's achievements, eventually it's frowned upon.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

And you see a lot of that from on LinkedIn to everywhere else. You see that.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yeah, well, yeah, and I was gonna use the example of just social media in general. Absolutely. I mean, it is a world now of boasting and self-promotion, absolutely in living in showing a life that you're not actually living. Absolutely. I mean, I I don't know if you I've sat next to what I imagine to be influencers who are at a restaurant getting all these fancy dishes coming to their table, and they're taking pictures of themselves with it, and you know, and and and then posting it. They're not eating any of the food, they're literally just in there taking pictures of the food and showing what great life they have, and then they go to the next one. Like, that's not that that is living a lie, uh is the opposite of yeah, right. So hey, we live in a society right now where that is encouraged and we're paying for it.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Look, I find like LinkedIn to be like social media for professionals, right? I mean, that's what it is. If you go on there, it's all about people doing great things, getting promotions, getting, you know, uh you see startups writing all these big flowery things about what they're achieving, and and most of those, some of these are for ulterior, all of these are for ulterior motive, quite frankly. Um, but that's that's the world that we live in. Web, but that's not the world that we come from. Before we had social media, actually, it was it was frowned upon to talk about your work. Like no one would go and say, you know what, I got a promotion, I got a raise. Like you wouldn't talk to your friends about these kind of things, let alone friends. You wouldn't talk to your neighbor or people on the street about these things. This is not this wasn't part of culture. You would take your work, you would participate in your work, and you would keep it at home. You know, you would there were other things that you would show outside, how good you know, as a parent or as a community, uh you know, participate in the community or whatever, right? Community member. These are the kind of things, but not about your job. I mean, now it's become like we talk about everything. We took this vacation, look how I good look, how look at good looking I am in a swimsuit and all of those kind of nonsense, which you never put outside before. So, yes, we live in a world like that, but we come from a world, honestly, I believe, where most people would say that they would rather be the person who is modest, doesn't exaggerate, doesn't talk. It's actually distasteful to kind of talk about your your work, right? I mean, it's like when they say in social context, it's the people who don't know how to make a conversation, they start with, you know, hi, I'm this person. What do you do for work? Like that's usually like the first thing that comes out, and then and and there's so many different ways to approach a person and talk to them, but that becomes the first thing we we we talk about or or say, and so there is there is a the it's not the norm, and we shouldn't necessarily be we should be on the modest front of this. So the the person in the middle may appear to other people to be someone who is modest, mock modest, understating the truth, because sometimes understating the truth is considered to be in better taste. That's right, yeah, just society is better better um accepted. As a matter of fact, it's I find myself in that situation. I I rather not tell people what I do. Like I there was a there was a time when I stopped telling people that I'm that I was a that I'm a cardiologist because it's not someone I had people who challenge me on that and said, Why are you being modest? You're being you know you're being mock modest because it is in fact something that you are and you've achieved that through life and you've gotten here. But my explanation for that was that it is of no consequence in a social setting that I am one, right? And um there's a good chance that the person I'm talking to is not one, and it's like you know, if you meet an astronaut, you are in the top like 0.0001% of the world, like everybody else will feel smaller no matter what you are, right? So it it it is not it is it is incumbent on that person or me in a social setting, not make anybody else even remotely feel smaller because it it's of no consequence, there's no motive here for me to say that I am one. Now, obviously, if this person says you know I'm having chest pain for you know, and it changes that that changes the the the paradigm, but there's no point really. So someone could blame me for being mock modest. Maybe I was, maybe I am, I don't know, but I'd rather be on that end of the spectrum and then be on the opposite end of that spectrum, be boastful.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah, absolutely. Uh yeah, interestingly enough, my recording this morning on another podcast, it was about this exact conversation, it was about identity, right? We were talking about how we are caught up with our identities being wrapped around our work, and yeah, we also got into the physical aspects of that too. That you know, that we have symptoms of we can't slow down, but but it was exactly this it's it's having that conversation around like you we we have a very difficult time in society right now, I think, in my opinion, of of not of being modest here. So you're saying you prefer not to, but I think you're I think you're an outlier. I think that most people are used to in a world where we're all keeping up with the Joneses, starting off with, so what do you do? But I will know I'll say this an observation I've had recently because I have also stopped asking people that, and I'm not being asked that either. If I'm not if I'm asking them a question about who they are, not about what they do, yeah, we have a very different conversation. And and it's much more modest. And um, I and I I've got two other examples. Like I was invited to go to a friend's, my son's friend's house to talk to them about what I do because they just didn't understand it. And it's the and I'm like, this is gonna be so freaking boring for you. You know, I wear a lot of hats, so I'm going and I go and do this. I'm like, you know, it was primarily for their kid who's in you know in college majoring in business, and and he wanted to know what I what I do. And so I was trying to explain this over 45 minutes. I'm like, I this is just boring, and by the way, I don't care about what I do. So like I'm not passionate about telling you about all these different things, uh all these different you know, pots that I have, you know, or plates in the air. Um, and then the other one is just an example of of modesty, I think, which is um, you know, so you're a doctor, you're a cardiologist, you've earned that you go by Dr. You know, Dr. Anish Pakala, right? So, like that's your you know, but that's all doctors with it with MDs go by doctor. I have a PhD, I do not go by doctor. Uh I know plenty of PhDs who do, but I you know, I don't put that in front of my name, and I don't put PhD behind my name because I'm not defining myself as because it has nothing to do with who I am.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

That's a good example.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

You know, that the example of mod like that is a modest choice I made many years ago. And after I got my doctorate, I remember going into and work with a bunch of consultants and a bunch of I was a consultant, I was working with a team, and they started calling me Dr. J. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's just Jeremy. I don't need Dr. J. Like, that's not right, that's not why I did this. So see, that's that's good.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

That's a good see, that's a good example. See, that's what I'm saying. So so someone could again, it depends upon this the particulars, it depends upon the situation, depends upon perspective. Someone may think you're a mock modest for doing it, right? But look, mock modesty really is the opposite end of it, really, is when it's trifling obvious qualities, like there's some obvious qualities. So say someone is is fit, right? Fit individually, exercises, eats right, right? You know, he looks fit, and someone says, you know, you're fit, and you're like, ah no, yeah, it's nothing, you know. I am, you know, I I could I could probably gain a few pounds, be okay. That kind of stuff. You know, it's obvious. If it's in your face and you say no to it, that is being why just say it, own it, accept it. Right, you know. Um especially if you work on it, if it's an obvious quality. You see what I mean? That's being a mock modest in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's also it's taking the compliment, or you know, when it's deserved, yeah. I mean, if if it's true, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

So that's one the the then the last one. I think we have just one. Oh no, we have two, or two, okay, we have two. Okay, you want to go to the next one?

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Sure. So uh this is about humor, yeah, yeah, and wit. Um, the witty person who uses humor well, right? Um, they can be funny, they can uh they appreciate humor, they can take a joke. Um, and now the access of this is uh buffoonery, right? Um, saying anything to get a laugh, right? And I think we've all experienced someone who absolutely is always the comic. Uh, they don't have a sense of limits. Um, and the deficiency here is uh borishness, like there's just no sense of humor. You cannot take a joke, you you don't um you find levity to be offensive. Um and so, you know, I think that that here, like uh humor, hu humor, uh, you know, a person who uses humor that is clever and appropriate um to context um and knows not you know not what to you know knows what not to laugh at. This is what this is this is kind of the balance there.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Absolutely, absolutely. And we've seen this, man. And you know, so it's easy to cross the line sometimes, but you learn, like you know, the buffoon not only makes fun of himself or herself, but is willing to make fun of other people at their cost. You know, so there is there's again when it comes to these social virtues, about pain and pleasure to others in these settings, so they are willing to cause pain and displeasure to themselves and to others as well with these with these acts. The the boorish person is so worried that that they could they'll cause displeasure to somebody or they or that they would be pained at it. They cannot take a joke, everything is an insult. And similarly, they are very uptight in social situations where nothing can be you know said crosswise. And so there's there's a there's a ground in between where you can play, where you don't have to insult anybody, you don't have to insult a community, you don't have to insult, you know, you don't have to use terrible words or you know harsh language uh or do you know insane acts in order to bring about a laugh or bring levity to the moment. Look, I struggle with this. I know that there are folks who are really good at this, that they are you know they're ready-witted. I have friends who are who are like that, you know, they're not in they're not insulting, you're not saying anything, but they have a retort at the tip of their tongue, you know, they say some things, they can put words together to make a uh uh a dull moment like really funny. And I love people like that. I think people are ready with some are the most popular people.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Um and and I and I and it's it's definitely I think it can be learned, though I found that it's hard to learn it. Like one can learn to be a stand-up comic, but one can one ready-wit is something else altogether, it's a mixture of the right attitude, the right way of saying it, the right moment, the timing. It's something that people are born with, and I know people like that, and it's just an absolute pleasure to be with them.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a trait. Oh, it's not necessarily a skill, a skill is actually becoming a stand-up comic. You can train yourself. I mean, obviously, I think the a lot of great comics start with with the trait, right? Um, you know, I I mean, I think Robin Williams was always finding that he was someone who always found the moment, like he was witty all the time, but not in a buffoonish way, correct? But he could always, yeah, he could turn it on and turn it off, but he could find humor in anything, I think.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Um I think Dave Chappelle comes to mind as somebody who's like a class act. Like you see his acts, I mean they're really nice, and uh, and obviously, you know, people would argue that he does he does cause pain to certain people and stuff. Yes, that's true, but he's a he's a class act uh in in many ways. Uh I've I thought like some folks do come, like Norm McDonald comes to mind. Like there's some folks like that who are really good. But the the thing about um one thing I liked about Ready Wit also is that they can take a situation that is not going their way, like people are angry, it's a tough situation, and they can and they can make the moment light by saying something. That is something that I struggle with. I find it very hard to do. When someone does it, I'm like, ah, should have been me, you know. Like if I get into like a tough conversation, I can't break out of it with weight. I I I it's something that I have to practice. Like you see, so I I've gotten better, but I'm not there yet. And if I do it, it's forced. And it's hard to do it if it's forced. Like it has to be I've done it a few times and it's worked, other times it's not worked, so it's just something that I need to work on.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, when it's forced, it doesn't usually land.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

No, it doesn't land at all. And yeah, it it it could it could turn on you, so you gotta be careful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

That's right. Yes, it can. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

All right, ready with the last one is modesty, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

So the shame, the capacity for embarrassment, which is interesting as a virtue because it's also a feeling. Um, yep. And so what one of the things that I so I was making the note here, you know, it's okay for a child to make an error if they feel shame. Shame is felt for voluntary actions. The good man will never voluntarily do bad actions, therefore shouldn't experience shame.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

That's very well said, uh, Jeremy. And the big uh line, the word there is voluntarily. If an act was not done voluntarily, no blame, no shame, no guilt should come out of it. It does, but it should not. Voluntary actions are actions where one has the will, the power, and the knowledge of the particulars. That means you knew the act that you're doing was a bad act, you committed it. Now you can feel you, you you were in control the entire time. You wanted to do the act, you weren't forced to do it, it wasn't circumstance, you had the power to do it, you were in control the whole time, and you knew that this act wasn't a good act, and you did it, and now you feel shame for it. That's where a lot of learning in life comes from. Shame is needed because that shame, that guilt, or whatever you call it, is the crisis.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

A lot of times we are running away from it. Like a lot of times, when people point out the thing to you, it brings this anger because the anger is not coming at the person, it is gets directed at the person who brings it out, but it's driven from what's inside because one is guilty about it, one feels bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

Right, right. Yeah, I think that you know, thinking about the child who makes a mistake and an error and feels shame, that is an opportunity for them to learn. So, like, it's okay for a child to do that, and that's that helps steer them later so that they don't make the same mistake again, and then they know that they don't want to feel shame, and so they want to do better, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Absolutely, absolutely, and here's the thing: like, no one is born a virtuous person, one can become a virtuous person, and during that journey, one is going to do bad acts. And initially, those bad acts are going to be because they didn't have the will, someone made them do it, a circumstance made them do it, a convention made them do it, or it was powerless, like they did they didn't have a hand in it, it was just happened to happen through them, but it was not necessarily off them, or they didn't have knowledge of the particulars, they didn't know that this was a bad act in the first place. But you learn from each of those episodes, but eventually there is a situ there is a certain time, crisis and all of this comes from the particulars. You you had the will, the power, you actually chose to do those things. Maybe you didn't have the knowledge of the particulars, but but but when the thing goes bad, that is when a crisis comes about. You're like, my gosh, like how did this happen? What can I do differently? How come I didn't know that this can happen? So that moment of crisis, you can go one or two ways. I mean, you can do the conventional crisis path where you just, you know, it's a new house, a new car, a new wife, or whatever. Or you can turn to asking yourself, if I didn't know, how do I know? How do I gain the knowledge or what is the right thing to do? That is the hero's journey. Right. And so shame is is important. But once you cross that threshold, right, once you come out of that crisis and you are reborn as this hero, next time you come upon the same problem, you choose not to do that act. Because if you choose to do that act again, you're not a good human being. You're like you're you're you're not a virtuous human being. You're you're still somebody who hasn't learned, you're dishonorable. You see, that's why when you said that actually shameful acts should not occur. A good man should not do shameful acts, right? That is true, but a good we are not good men yet. You see, once you get there though, like Socrates, that's why Socrates drinks hemlock. Because because choosing a life of exile would be a shameful act. He drinks poison in and and and and you see that's the choice that he makes. What what what he says here is uh and I think these are it is um it is the mark of a bad man to do such disgraceful action. But that is the pursuit, the pursuit is not to be a bad man, and that takes for some people many, many years, and you may never get there, but you may get better at certain situations and certain things, but shamelessness is the opposite of it. That is the true opposite where you're doing all sorts of acts and you don't care about the consequences of it, you know. Right, that is where I find a lot of people too who have no gay guilt, no shame. And I think there are people like this in the world. I think a lot of the Epstein class come to mind, like quite frankly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Yeah, unfortunately, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

Yeah, terrible acts.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Yeah, yeah. Um no, it's uh it's actually better for us to experience the shame than to have shamelessness. Uh and because then we're we're learning. If you if you experience and feel shame, you are experiencing it. That you you will do something differently next time, right? Or I mean if or you continue to do it and continue to feel shame, or continue, or you know, I think that some of these people with the shamelessness probably felt shame at some point and then moved beyond and say, Well, this is you know, whatever it is or just kind of. Saying, well, this is or or sociopathic, and they actually don't feel it all.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

I think that's probably what it is, Jeremy. I because see, look, there are people who who feel the guilt, and you know, and you can tell there are people who feel the guilt and shame, they hold it inside of them and they act like it doesn't bother them, or it didn't bother me. That's like you know, you the more confident you are on the outside, the less confident you are on the inside, like the quiet confidence, right? The the the one that you know that's a person who's learned and scarred and has come through life, right? And so that there, but there are people, those who are truly are shameless, like they do not believe, and it's because this is a social virtue. They do not believe that that they that they are part of society, they've unhinged from society, they're the gods, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

The power, the money, the greed, all that, right? Living above uh above everyone else. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

Well, all right, so we have wrapped up social virtues. I think next is going to be a heavy, heavy lift. We're gonna be talking about another cardinal virtue, so the intellectual virtues, which is which is a combination of intellectual and social. So justice, justice is the ultimate social virtue, but requires to you to have some intellectual virtue along with it as well. So we'll talk about that next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

All right, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

All right, Jeremy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Thank you.