Splash Considerations Ep. 4: Giants Swept to Begin Tony Vitello Era (feat. Shayna Rubin, Ken Rosenthal)

The Tony Vitello era in San Francisco begins with the Giants being swept by Aaron Judge and the New York Yankees. Justice is joined by Shayna Rubin of the San Francisco Chronicle to discuss the Giants' offensive woes, Vitello's interesting postgame comments on Friday and the decisions that the rookie manager made (or didn't make) in his first three games in the majors. Plus, Justice is joined by Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic to discuss his overall impressions of Vitello, as well as how the Giants approached their offseason after signing Willy Adames and trading for Rafael Devers.

Additional Reading:

What stood out in Tony Vitello’s first series as SF Giants’ manager?

SF Giants swept by Yankees to open Vitello era as offense remains silent

SF Giants flat again in Opening Day loss, shut out in second straight game to open season

SF Giants blown out by Yankees in Vitello’s managerial debut

Buster Posey explains why SF Giants DFA’d Luis Matos, other roster choices

Heliot Ramos set to break SF Giants’ most infamous streak on Opening Day

Time Stamps: 

0:12: Introduction

5:08: Conversation with Shayna Rubin

8:10: Luis Matos DFA'd

11:35: The absurdity of Opening Night

15:50: How the Giants were swept by the Yankees

18:30: San Francisco's offensive woes

22:00: Vitello shouldering the blame on Friday

31:35: Vitello's bench usage

35:55: How the roster impacts Vitello's managing

41:57: Conversation with Ken Rosenthal

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to another episode of Splash Considerations. My name is Justice Delos Santos, San Francisco Giants B report for the San Jose Mercury News. And we've got a fun two-part episode here following the Giants being swept by the New York Yankees to begin the Tony Vitello era. The first part of this episode, it's going to be a conversation that I had with friend of the program, Shane Rubin of the San Francisco Chronicle. We obviously got into everything that the last three, well, technically four days in San Francisco entailed. Talked about opening night, and then talked about opening day, and then I guess technically opening afternoon as well, and got into the Giants' offensive struggles over the course of the first three games of the season. Talked about Vitello's kind of interesting post-game comments after the game on Friday. Talked about some of the lack of utilization of the bench on Saturday. And one thing, a couple things that I wanted to mention that we didn't get to uh during recording. Uh first and foremost, uh the opening night marked the first time since the 2006 and 2007 season. I'm not phrasing that correctly, but basically the infamous left field streak uh is now over courtesy of one Elliot Ramos. Uh I asked Vitello the day before whether or not he was going to use Elliot in left field, whether he was going to be the one to finally break that streak. And Vitello said, breaking news, he's gonna be the one uh in left field. So I can't recite the list of guys off the top of my head, but it was 19 different left fielders in 19 different years. And I was able to do a story that ran the morning of opening night that talked to a couple kind of characters that were involved with that. Talked to Elliot Ramos, of course, but also to have the opportunity uh to talk to Bruce Bochi, who was obviously the manager for the first uh 13 years of that streak, talked to Blake Sable, talked to Hunter Pence. I I think it ended up being like a very fun story because it got into some of the quirks, some of the intricacies of that streak, because when you have a streak uh of that nature, there's bound to be some quirks and some intricacies uh along the way. Uh one point that I wanted to make here as well, because Shane and I discussed some of the managerial decisions that Tony Vitello made over the course of his first three games. And again, I want to emphasize early on that it's three games, it's not a super big sample size. We can't have a definitive idea of how Vitello was gonna run his team just based off three games. But one thing that I want to mention that we didn't mention during our conversation was the decision on Saturday to pitch to Aaron Judge. Uh I believe it was either the fourth inning or the fifth inning where Ryan Barucki enters the ballgame to face a pocket of lefties. He's able to punch out Austin Wells. I think he gets Trent Grisham to ground out. And with no runners on, again, I think top of the fourth, top of the fifth, uh Aaron Judge comes to the plate and ends up hitting a solo homer that extended the Giants or deficit or the Yankees' lead rather, uh to 3-1. And when we asked Vitello after the game, he said, you know, there was consideration for pitching around Judge, uh, but they ended up going after him and they went after him and got burned. And Vitello said something to the effect of that's why he's a pretty good player, more than pretty good uh as well. So just wanted to make a quick note of that as well, if you're wondering why we didn't discuss that specific, uh, I guess technically non-decision over the course of our conversation about the decisions that Vitello made. Also had an opportunity to spend a couple minutes with none other than Ken Rosenthal prior to the game on Saturday. We talked about his initial impressions of Tony Vitello, what are the things that he's gonna be watching going forward with Vitello, and also talked about the Giants offseason as a whole a little bit as well. So incredibly grateful to Ken that even as he was preparing for the Saturday broadcast, which for those of you who may not know, it is a lot of moving pieces when you are preparing for a national broadcast, even as he was having to navigate everything he had to navigate pregame, incredibly grateful that he was able to hop on the pod for a couple minutes uh and discuss his overall impressions of Again Vitello and the Giants of a Hole. So you're gonna hear that conversation with Shayna and I first, and then you will hear the conversation that I had with Ken on the back half end of this episode. So that's enough from me as far as an introduction to this episode. If you like the podcast or YouTube show, whatever you want to call it, feel free to subscribe. Feel free to follow on Apple or Spotify. Even with the price of pretty much everything kind of going up these days, it is still just free 99 to subscribe to follow. It costs you nothing except maybe 30 seconds of your time, if that's so. Here's my conversation that I had with Shayna, and then that's going to be followed by the conversation that I had with Ken Rosenthal. Welcome to another episode of Splash Considerations. My name is Justice Delos Santos, San Francisco Giants beat reporter for the San Jose Mercury News. That's Joey Hamhock, Grammy Award-winning producer on the beat. And I'm joined now virtually, not in person, virtually, by the illustrious baseball writer at the San Francisco Chronicles, Shayna Rubin. Shayna, how are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Great. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I'm gonna be honest, Shayna. I woke up this morning and I was dragging it. It just felt like such like an adrenaline, like just come down after, like, I know we had the off day on Thursday, but it felt like today, like waking up, this was like the moment when like my body could kind of rest. And I'm glad the Giants have an off day today, too. And honestly, they could probably use one as well. They're gonna have an off day in San Diego. We're stuck here in uh in in the Bay Area, quote unquote stuck here. But I I just felt that like wave of adrenaline finally wash away and it hit me when I woke up this morning. Do you feel the same way? Because I feel like it's it's hitting all of us right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah, I just uh honestly I just feel off. Like today is Sunday. Having no baseball, at least Giants baseball on a Sunday is very uh disorienting.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, that's part of it.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yesterday was Saturday, today is Sunday, they play tomorrow, okay. Like it's been kind of just having the the the Netflix day was very just threw everything off kilter. Um, but yeah, you you've you've sort of been in it for longer than uh than I have, just in terms of like going right from spring training into into the season.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

So it's uh I can imagine what that you you're probably feeling very uh just overwhelmed by uh spring training feels like it was a million years ago at this point. And it's a kind of you know build off that point, like baseball is a game of routines, and typically the way these routines go is that it's you know, Monday, Tuesday night game, Wednesday, day game, Thursday really depends on the series, but then you get Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday being a day game. So, like to have like the Wednesday opening night, Thursday off day, Friday opening day, Saturday opening afternoon. I don't know what you want to call it. We can get into that in a second, but it's all very disorienting. So I I am glad that beginning tomorrow with this three-game series in San Diego, we're gonna start getting back to some semblance of like a normal schedule because, like you said, we just haven't had it in a while. And I know yeah, nobody wants to hear about baseball reporters, but like this is the same thing for the players. Like, baseball players are creatures of habits too.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's it's it's they seem I don't know if I want to say they seem on phase. It's been a very strange uh start to the season. Uh, but yeah, it's it's just uh it's it's an unorthodox, it's been an unorthodox week uh week, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah, and I I think given all the popping circumstances, I think a lot of these guys are again ready to get into a normal schedule. And we've got a lot to talk about over the course of these last three days uh of Giants baseball. Uh obviously, as we're standing here right now, they're 0-3, they're without a win. Uh but the one thing that I want to get into just before we get into the actual games, and we can just touch on this super quickly. They obviously announced their opening day roster a couple days ago, and after they optioned Bryce Eldridge to AAA Sacramento, which was the last video we did, which again feels like it was a million years ago at this point. But after they made that decision, uh the next biggest decision that they had to make was whether or not they have Luis Matos on the roster or they end up designating for assignment. That's the route that they ended up going, ending his Giants tenure. And if you want to look at it from a kind of a broader microscope, you now have you know Luis Matos and uh Marco Luciano are no longer with the organization. At one point, these guys were the future of the organization, or thought to be at least. And well, uh technically Matos hasn't, you know, been claimed by anyone yet, but you know, I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the next couple days he is. Luciano is uh funny enough, currently in the Yankee system, but just overall thoughts on the Giants' decision to designate Matos for assignment, especially given that he is only 24, as well as some of the upside that he still has.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

I mean, I think there was at least a little bit of suspense about the first week. Like when you have the two off days and kind of fuss around with the rotation, there's at least a chance that okay, you'll keep it for another week and see what you can do uh with that with him, with that roster spot, etc. etc. But they just got right to it and it's it's all sad. Um not super surprising. I mean that the very much sort of uh it didn't really fit into the the sort of like priority uh last year's last. So it's just it's not like a lot of it. It's never really when you go from height to nothing like that, and then what they have going to be like are you having these kind of things? Like, are we gonna get a reasonable situation and and how much uh treatments can be put into the height? So it's it's uh you know, it's never fun when uh when the top prospect is. And I don't know if it's a point when it doesn't come to uh fruition.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, and it's never fun for a manager, any front office executive to have to tell somebody that they've been designated for assignment. I guess kind of the flip side of that is that Tony Vitello, as well as Buster Posey and Zach Manassian, got to tell Jared Oliva that he was on the opening day roster. Obviously, he hasn't played in the majors since 2021, was a pinch runner yesterday, and we'll we'll get into that kind of can of worms as well. But, you know, even if Matos was on this opening day roster, we may not have seen him these these first three games. And we'll get into that broader point uh in a second. But I did want to run through uh these first three games and we'll kind of make some pit stops along the way, and starting with opening night, which again, as we talk about this conversation of these last couple days being a lot. Goodness gracious, the opening night was a lot. And for one, it's like a five o'clock start. And obviously, you have like the Netflix only game, only streamed on Netflix, and there was just it was so so much. You had the Yankees, like they were running through like a taxi while there was dancers going like coming out to terror squads, lean back. That's personally not the choice of song I would have used if I wanted to represent New York. Like it's fine. I could have thought of maybe like 25 songs off the top of my head that were better, and then you had the Giants jumping out of a cable car to brainstorm by Green Day, which again, fine. Not the song that I personally would have used, but again, there was dancers there. You had like the drones in right field that were like setting off smoke to mimic the American flag, the 70 red kayaks. Jameis Winston was like running around doing everything, which I thought was kind of funny, and people don't know that Jameis Winston actually played college ball. And if you want to go look it up, there's a clip of him stealing home with Carlos Correa at the plate during one of those East-West games. And then obviously he had Barry Bonds as a guest analyst. He told the story about how he almost signed with the Yankees. There's a lot of stories that were written on that. It was just before even getting into the game, Shayna. What were your overthought thoughts on the Netflix experience, the Netflix of it all? Because it it was a lot, and you know, seeing some of the reactions, it it felt like we were kind of better off without it. And I think the big question was was this serving the sport of baseball or was this to serve Netflix? And I think a lot of people would lean towards the latter.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

I wasn't really I didn't really know what I was expecting. I to a certain extent I was expecting it to be a little bit out of time. Um I I just thought it was you know baseball is a people are very weird about their social media and opening night. So when you catch that, it's automatically for a lot of people and then on top of that, it just felt very um I mean it was too much.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

It was a lot. It was a lot.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Like I don't know how else to put it. It was not even too much, it was just like I was laughing at the when the dancers were like popping it to, you know, I think that's that.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

I was like, that might have been like the most that might have been like the most absurd part of the entire like everything, like the cable car, it's cute. The taxis, it was cute. The dancers, I was like, what the like what is happening?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

It was just it was just over the top, and like I understand they're trying to like, you know, they're trying to Hollywoodize the experience of you know East versus West and two story franchises coming together in one place, and they're trying to sort of like uh like nationalize the the main parts of the cultures that were clashing and then the ballpark itself. And it's just like you're watching basically watching baseball before, obviously, it's just like what are we looking at? We this isn't this isn't part, this isn't baseball. This isn't this isn't really fit in baseball experience. So it was kind of funny. I just people get so upset. I don't know why everyone's so upset about it. It's just like you gotta take it for what it is. It was just it was an experience and it was kind of um, it was a lot and it was a little bit funny.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, I'm just thankful that Bert Kreisner didn't take off his hoodie. Like, if you don't know anything about him, that's his whole thing is like taking off his shirt, exposing his bare chest. I'm just glad just glad that he didn't do that because the way that he was running around, I was like, we we might see him do that. In the MLB branded hoodie, too, which was like Roblox. Like the baseballism stores across the street. Like, we could have gotten you like a better hoodie. Anyway, that it was just such a weird, odd experience. You wrote a story about going in the kayak. I kind of wish I tagged along for that because it seemed like it was a cool experience. I might steal your idea because I've never done a kayak in the cove either. Uh, as far as the game itself, it was kind of a dud. Like, I hate to say in baseball, like a game's over like by the second inning, but you know, the you they Logan Webb, one, two, three, first inning, strikes out Trent Grisham, strikes out Aaron Judge on a sword, nonetheless, really sharp in the first inning, and then allows five runs on this hit parade in the second inning, clean third, clean fourth, allows two more runs. And it was only the third time in his career that he's allowed seven earned, not earned runs, just runs period, uh, in a game. And, you know, it was I think what Vitello said after the game was that this press conference is half painful, half easy, just because it was pretty straight up. They didn't play well on defense. The the pitching, obviously, Logan was the only one that allowed runs, but you know, it was seven runs. And then the offense couldn't do anything against Max Fried and Company. Uh, opening day, it was a return to normalcy. It was uh following the off day on Thursday, it was everything that we you know expected in opening day. You know, John Miller, Master of Ceremonies. They got Jay-Z, uh, I'm forgetting the name of the song. The winner, Rock Boys, the winner is like the instrumentals playing. You know, it's just traditional opening day. The sun is out, great time. Didn't result in a win either. Uh, Aaron Judge, he was gonna make his mark at some point, and he gets a two-run homer. Uh Giants get shut out in back-to-back games. First time that's ever happened in franchise history to open a series. Third game of the season, they end up do scoring a run finally. They they scored in the bottom of the third, but it took them 20 innings to score a run that's tied for the longest touch streak since 1909. And again, they lose, you know, that game, they get swept. And an interesting stat that I put in my story is that Tony Vitello, during his eight years at Tennessee, only got swept six times. And I think two of the times were I think three of the times were like by teams he coached at. I think it was one was by Missouri, two was by Arkansas. Not that who swept him really matters, but you know, they get swept to to start the season. It's obviously not a great start to the Tony Vitello era. And there's a lot of places that that we can start uh in regards to how these first three games went overall. I I think you know, obviously, yesterday's fresh mind, just because we barely saw any, you know, usage of the bench. Uh Tuesday, or see, my b my days are even thrown off. Friday was interesting because of what Vitello said post-game. Again, opening night was interesting because it was opening night. Where do you kind of want to start as to where and how these first three games of the season started? Because we do have a lot of options. We could also just talk about how the offense scored one run in in three games as well. Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I mean, well, where do we start? I mean, it it it was spring training, is like, you know, whatever, but it was a little bit jarring to see them in something of a flow ending spring and then going right into just not being able to hit a fastball, not being able to get anything going. A lot of how they looked at their worst last year, where it's just they look a little bit overwhelmed by the opposing pitching. Um, I don't know if overwhelmed is the right word, but just flummoxed or you know, just unable to generate much. Yeah, bats got better, and I think maybe Tony acknowledged that. Yeah, bats got better over the course of three games, but that's a marginal better. Um it was pretty uh difficult to watch maybe the first two games, or you know, you could you could tell that they're um I mean that they weren't really grinding out at bats the first couple games, and it's it it just it felt very much like a very it just it was the epitome of a slow start at the plate for everybody. So I don't I don't know if I that that seems like the the crux of what I was looking at.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, and I mean let's take it for what it is. Like this is the New York Yankees, this is a team that has playoff ambitions, that's been to the playoffs however many years in a row at this point. And even without former giant Carlos Rodon, even without Garrett Cole, like their rotation is still damn good. And Max Freed is a three-time all-star. I think there was also some neat stat that this was like the first opening day start where like two gold glove pitchers pitched against each other. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but there was something to that effect. And and Max Fried is a damn good pitcher. He's and he pitched six and a third shutout innings. I think Friday's opening day, again, just the absurdity of like opening night and opening day. They got they're two openers, and I know I want to I want to give a quick shout out to the San Francisco Standard because the headline after that game was another open or another shutout, which what what a headline. Um, but you know, I I think Friday was an introduction for a lot of Giants fans to Cam Schlitzer. Make sure you say that name correctly because there's actually there's a story in the athletic about uh someone was gonna mispronounce that name at some point, but like he he's got some stuff to him. Like he's he's throwing three types of fastballs, like not that he's touching 99, some great breaking stuff. And you know, take it for what it is. It's two really good pitchers, and you're gonna have these types of games at some point in the season. Like it's it's an inevitability that you have maybe not one run in three games, but it's an inevitability that you're gonna get shut out. It just so happens to be the first two games to start a season, which after we talked so much in spring training about the depth of this lineup, how adding a rise and adding Bader lengthens the lineup, uh just not the the way you want to start. Obviously, on Saturday, they had the nine hits, but they just weren't really able to string anything together. They grounded in to four double plays. So at least there there were signs of life offensively, but as far as being able to actually plate runs, like we didn't see any exhibitions of the power of this lineup, like Rafi Debris was pretty much held in check. There wasn't a single homer over these three games. The one run came from a Matt Chapman single. So again, it's it's three of it's three of 162. I don't put like a ton of stock into a crazy slow offensive start. I don't even want to call it crazy slow. Like again, like this is kind of bound to happen at some point. But when you open the season by being swept, especially when all the popping circumstances made for the new manager, it's just not the way you want to start a season. And I and I think that's a we can transition into Vitello here. Like, do you want to start with like how he managed these games, or do you want to kind of start with you know the the postgame on Friday? Because I I I don't want to com like constant like I want to make this clear. Like I'm not constantly trying to like nitpick every little thing he says, but sometimes it just kind of makes your ears perk up like the things that he ends up saying.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah, let's let's let's talk about what he said Friday because um I think that that is worth discussing. I mean I I think something I have an issue with is this idea that discussing what he said is a criticism. I don't think that we're criticizing, and by we I mean the media. I don't know if we I think there was sort of a there was a social media reaction to the nature of his comments because it felt very I mean it it strays from the norm. A lot of managers, when you uh are two games into a season and you have a score to run and you're barely getting any hits, then the there's a pretty boilerplate response that that they give to a tough question, and instead of the boilerplate, he gave something that it was very uniquely him, and then it just kind of uh the fact that it was unique, everyone had a reaction to it, and then it turns into a oh or this is a criticism. I don't think it's a criticism, it's just it's a peek into how he is uh wants to lead. He's he it was his way of and maybe we should, maybe I should uh let or you can get into what he exactly said so that we can discuss it more.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

But yeah, let's think yeah, let's set the stage here as to what he said. So obviously, you know, opening night they got shut out, opening day, they got shut out. And you know, most managers after being shut out in back-to-back games, and and again, like there's an added element to all this because it is, you know, it's his managerial debuts, and you know, it's the start of the season. I there's an and heightened attention to it. But I think the majority of managers would just say, you know, it is what it is. Like he did have a quote where he said, I think we're over swinging too much, and if you just had that, you know, no one no one's saying anything about his post-game comments. Like, that's a valid criticism. But where you know our ears kind of collectively started to perk up was that he had said he he told us that a couple days before the season, not before opening night, but a couple days before the season, he made what he referred to as a kind of fire and brimstone. He he said that phrase like three times. Yeah, he he made what he referred to as a fire in brimstone type speech, where I think he said he basically said like guys were ready to like run through a wall. Um, and he got he got he got the boys fired up. You know, he he that's that's kind of the way he said it. I'm not saying it verbatim, but that was the essence of what he was saying. And you know, following the loss, he said that maybe it's a little too emotional in there. Maybe some guys like the emotions are a little too heightened. And, you know, if again, I I think we it's we've harped on the point about him making the jump from college to the majors, and we've harped on it a lot, and we're gonna continue to do so. And I think for some fans it might be like, this is a bit of a broken record, but it's the truth, and it's important because this is probably a tactic that he's deployed in college, like but in the however many years that he's been in the college game, the 20 plus years, he's probably deployed something to this effect a good amount of times. And he tried to do it in the professional game. Again, we don't know the exact form and function that it took. I think he might have toned it down a little bit for the professional guys. But when Robbie Ray was asked after the game, like whether he said that he felt I I can't exactly remember how the question was phrased, but when he was asked about by Tello's postgame comments, he said, you know, we're major leaguers. I don't think that's the case. Like, we're fine. It's one of it's two of 162. And then when Elliott was asked about it, he said, we just need to play better. We just need to execute. Like, there wasn't this if you went in the clubhouse, like it didn't seem like anyone was particularly on edge. Like, there are moments when you walk into a major league clubhouse after tough losses and you can feel the tension in the air. And there there wasn't really the tension there. Like, obviously, they're not playing music, like, no one's in like a chipper mood, but you know, it was just a normal, you know, clubhouse after a loss, which is just kind of dour, kind of tranquil, so to say. Like, no one's really celebrating. And again, like it just kind of created this. I don't want to say there was a dissonance, like, I don't want to say like Robbie Ray was like, oh, our manager, he doesn't know what he's talking about. That's not what Robbie Ray was saying at all. Like, I think he did appreciate like his manager kind of defending his players, but it this is one of the points that we illustrated in spring training that he's dealing with grown men. It's not the 18 to 21, 22-year-olds anymore. These are grown men, they know how to handle losses, they know how to handle losing streaks. And when we talk about transitions to the major league game, this is something Vitello himself is gonna have to adapt to because yeah, he's been around the game, he's seen a lot of baseball, but you know, navigating three losses in the majors, it's inevitable. It's a lot different than navigating three losses at Tennessee. If his Tennessee team opened up with being swept by I don't know who, completely different discourse because of how the games are. So I don't even want to call it a learning lesson necessarily. That was that was a that was a long ramble. I just I had a flow state there, but uh I don't want to even call it that, but it's just something noteworthy. It's just kind of another thing where you kind of put it in the memory bank because again, with what happened in spring training, and you kind of just want to see where you know these things kind of go going forward.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Well, it was interesting because it's two games in and he's already peeling back the curtain, saying pretty explicitly after the game, yeah, guys in there are pretty emotional, might have something to do with what I said a couple days ago, but right now there's guys aren't happy. Like he there's having having a manager sort of uh I don't want to say the word exposed, but go to the emotional stuff so soon out of the gate was a little bit um it was different. Well, it's I think like that's that's it's it's telling of his style. Is he's not going to, I think baseball is very used to managers trying to temper the waters inside and out and not show the type of emotions that are happening behind closed doors. But uh so you kind of got the juxtaposition of you know, Tony's saying maybe what we're not seeing or or getting right to the yeah, guys are emotional, and and then you go to to Robbie Ray and Elliot, and they're saying, no, this is you know, it's it's how it always is. So it you know, we're major leaguers, we get emotional, but we we bounce back and it's it's it's not that deep. Um not to say that there's sort of a a friction, but it it was sort of an interesting juxtaposition of you know, in how each side was internalizing the immediate aftermath of a bad start, um, and how they were projecting it. So um I just thought it was interesting in terms of uh in terms of Tony. It's it's you know, it's kind of what you expect. He's known as someone that doesn't hold back and he says what he thinks and he he says what he means, and um that's what we got right out the gate.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, and I want to emphasize emphasize the word you use there, friction. I don't think there was any friction. I don't think that's the case. Like I think some people interpreted that. I I think because we pointed out the juxtaposition of emotions and reaction, people automatically go to there's friction. I don't think there's necessarily friction in the sense that you know Tony's are internalizing this one way, and and maybe it is true. Maybe there's some younger players on the Giants that maybe were a little too amped up. Like we didn't talk to all 26 guys, like maybe someone was a little more amped up than the other, but you know, it is just something to kind of again put in the memory bank going forward, and it is a reminder that, and this is obviously not kind of the the moment that what was it, day nine of spring training was, but it is just another moment stored in the memory bank. It is something that you know how you you do have to wonder, like how often is or are these types of moments going I don't even want to call them moments, like how often is he gonna be this transparent or you know, say his emotional state after a loss? Because you know, losing streaks like this, they're they are inevitable. Like again, I've made this point that you know, the Dodgers last year they lost 69 games in the regular season and they still won the World Series, like and the most losses that Vitello had to Tennessee in the season was 27. Like with a season this long, things like this are gonna happen. So it's more so just how does he react? How does he evolve as far as his reaction going forward? Because as much as you know, managing strategy is part of being a major league manager, so is managing the media. Like that is very much part of his responsibilities. It's not just some kind of you know side assignment, like this is part of the assignment. And speaking of decisions, I think this is a good segue into kind of how Vitello managed these first you know, three games of his managerial career. And I alluded to it, just the bench usage, but there was a couple different things that kind of popped up, but I do want to start with the bench usage, and I do want to start with the fact that we had as much playing time over the last couple days as Gerard Incarnacion and Daniel Susek and Christian Coss. They didn't see the field at all. And it wasn't until the ninth inning of Saturday's game that Jared Oliva was used as a pinch runner for William Adamas. And Willie Adamas, he did look a little shocked when he came off the field. He does have above average speed. Uh, he did seem he didn't exactly seem content when he was asked about it post-game. He said that he believed it was the first time he'd been pulled for a pinch runner that actually it wasn't. I think there was an instance in 2019. Um, but but let's start there. Like it it we've seen, you know, it's not that far ago that you know Gabe Kapler was, you know, utilizing his bench to the max. Like he'd run out of guys to use. And then even Bob Melvin, like he was proactive in utilizing his guys, and it's kind of one of those things where like the first couple games of a season, you want to get some guy, like every guy at least at least a little bit of playing time, and he did that with his bullpen. But I don't know, what were your impressions of just the the bench utilization or kind of lack thereof overall, and pretty much not until the ninth again, not until the ninth inning of the third game of the season?

SPEAKER_02 32:48

I think when you the most obvious time to use the bench would have been in that ninth inning when or not even just the bench, when to sort of get a little we I don't think we've been able to see them get creative with the lineup, with with uh pinch hitting, with with matchups. It's it's uh I think that or with strategy. Like I think that the ninth inning yesterday would have been a good time to maybe consider laying down a button to consider pinch hitting for one of the bottom of the lineup guys to get the bench activated to sort of uh give the Yankees a different look with the game potentially in reach, uh, to grind out a few different um to grind out a a better scoring opportunity. Um so that felt like the more sort of egregious time when you might have expected the bench that had been idle the entire series to get involved and uh didn't, um other than Oliva. Um and then again that created a little bit of a thing. But um, I don't know. I'm I'm trying to just take a step back, and I think that uh there's a very tight microscope on how Vitello is operating the dugout and and the roster and how he's you know looking at the game and how uh quick of a trigger he has on guys and how much feel he has for his players because he's brand new. And I was trying to take a step back and think, I think that there were a couple times, you know, last year, last couple years, where Bob Melvin was more intent on sticking with the guys, showing the the guys in the lineup showing confidence in the guys, uh and in sort of like a similar fashion where you think, okay, this is an experienced manager uh showing confidence in the starters that he has out there and and trying to build up the the early season um uh I hate to use confidence, build up the early season confidence in in those guys and and not stir the pot. And I think that so basically what I'm trying to say is um I think that it's both interesting and that it's showing how Tony is or isn't sort of willing to uh change things up on a on a dime, but it also I think that if you were an experienced manager, maybe you would be looking at it in a different way and saying this is a manager that's trying to show faith and and uh and stick with the the players that he has out there and and not sort of shake the shake shake it up as shake up everyone's confidence or whatever. Um so I think it could go both ways. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah, I do think with the the decision to pinch run for Adamas, because again, like I he wasn't exactly like bouncing off the walls when he when he was asked about it post-game, but I I think it is I I think it is kind of a feather in Vitello's cap that he was willing to make a tough decision like that. Like, yeah, like Adamus is a plus runner, but we have like the fastest guy on the team right there. Um, I think the the one thing, you know, when we we talk about you know pinch hitting opportunities in that ninth inning, I think this kind of gets back to the construction of the bench, which this is a an exclusively right-handed hitting bench. And when I was doing my opening day roster production projections, I constantly put, or constantly, it was two roster projections. I put Will Brennan uh on the bench kind of as that fourth outfielder over Matos, over Oliva, over McCray. Uh well, McCray's a left-handed hitter too, but it I put him there because they just didn't have a left-handed presence. And I thought that, you know, it would have been in the Giants' best interest to have that option available on the bench. And yes, they do have, you know, depending on the handedness of the starter, like four left-handed hitters, Bailey obviously being a switch hitter, but you know, bottom of the ninth inning yesterday, Harrison Bader, runners on first and second, right on right against David Bednar, a multi-time all-star. That would have been an opportune moment to have a guy like Brennan, you know, come off the bench who, you know, is significantly better against righties than lefties. And Vitello just didn't have that option available to him. So I think it is worth contextualizing that as well. You know, it's maybe in that opportunity because it was a right-on-right, and you could that would have been an opportunity to lay down a bunt right there, get both runners in scoring position, and then you bring Patrick Bailey to the plate, who, you know, coincidentally enough, has hit a walk-off homer off Bednar when Bednar was still with the Pirates. I believe that was in 2024. But there was, you know, opening night, not really any in there wasn't really many opportunities to use uh the bench at all. But again, like in the bottom of the seventh inning, you know, there was, you know, maybe an opportunity there where Zhung Hu Lee was going against Tim Hill, who had a 4-4-4 OPS against left-handed hitters. Now, granted, it's two outs, no one's on base. And but, you know, that's an opportunity right there where if you want to be, you know, push the envelope a little bit, and I'm not gonna get on him just for that, because again, it's two outs, there's not a runner on, but it did just feel, you know, especially in the ninth inning, especially later in the game on Saturday, that there were opportunities to you know try to utilize his bench in in different ways and you know, maybe get Gerard and Carnacion involved in some way, shape, or form, just because he does have that game-changing power, and it's just something we didn't see. And again, it's a three-game sample size. Like, I'm not gonna have this be an indictment on Vitello's ability to manage. I will give him credit in that he was able to get all eight of his relievers at least one appearance over the course of this series. And, you know, the bullpen, that's something that that's another can of worms we'll talk about another episode as we try to kind of figure out who's in what role. And the bullpen did pitch well, two earned runs over, I think, 13 or 12 innings with 13 strikeouts. But the bench utilization, the bench, those guys are there for a reason. And I think that they I think it would be in the best interest to utilize them a little more. If for no other reason than to just get them active, because when you're standing around for four days and not doing anything, like again, major leaguers, it's all about rhythm, it's all about get at least getting some type of opportunities. And even I think in the eighth inning, too, like Luisa Rias had a single, like that would have been an opportunity to pinch run for Christian Coss, especially because a Rice probably wasn't gonna come up again if uh just because it was the eighth inning. So again, not a grand indictment, but it is something to you know monitor going forward, especially because he's gonna be like criticized more than any manager, like fairly or not. Like when you make a move like this, a jump like this, like people are gonna be like, okay, what can you do? Like, how good of you a manager are you? Like, he's this is not the type of criticism that Craig Stammon or is gonna be feeling, and I because Craig Stammon, obviously, we're about to see him in San Diego. So again, just something to kind of note going forward as to you know, we evaluate what type of manager, what type of style that Vitello has.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah, and it's not even a criticism, it's just like a okay, what are you about? Like, I I think that it's it's it's more about understanding what his style is, and it's been three games, and so far we have extremely small data sample, but it you're getting a sense of his style. So you're trying to pay attention to what he does, what he doesn't do, what he says after the game, how he he took he's he's a take accountability guy. That was his version of taking accountability for uh I don't know if accountability, but trying to sort of deflect the attention onto him and off the team. And that's his style, and and it's it's interesting, and and it was an interesting, you know, uh display of what happens when you get off to a really bad start. Is uh you're getting a look at you're focusing more on what could have happened, what went wrong, and how the new guy is handling it. So it was it was just an interesting sort of the introduction.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Interesting introduction, say the least, a uh very adrenaline field last three days of the ballpark. Again, we got the off day today. We're both flying out to San Diego tomorrow, which I'm sure we'll circle back and have another conversation about, you know, what happens in San Diego. I want to leave with this. I'm not active, I want this to be very clear. I I'm not actively rooting against the Giants, but to me, I want to make this quick point. Statistically speaking, we're probably gonna see Mason Miller enter a ball game during this series in San Diego, and and that closer entrance coming out the corn, god damn, that looks crazy. Like, just statistically speaking, we're probably gonna see it. And yeah, it's just one of those things where like I can only imagine how electric the ballpark is. Again, if you're listening, I'm not rooting against the Giants, but if it does come to it, it looks like one of those baseball things that just looks really cool. That's all I want to say.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

I'm sure that we'll see that happen.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

But anyhow, Justice Del Santo, San Jose Mercury New, Shane Rubin, San Francisco Chronicle. Catch y'all later. I'm now joined by somebody who, quite frankly, needs no introduction. If anything, I'm the one here who needs the introduction, none other than Ken Rosenthal, the Athletic. He's obviously here for the Fox broadcast today. Ken, appreciate you making a little time today. Just as a pleasure, man. Appreciate you coming on, appreciate you coming on. And obviously, I want the place where I want to start is asking about Tony Vitello. And, you know, a lot has been made about, you know, this is the first guy to go from straight from the college ranks to the major leagues, just straight from that dugout to this dugout. You were obviously there for the first day of spring training. You've gotten to be around him a little bit. Just what have your overall impressions been of the time that you've been around Vitello so far, the interactions you've had and just kind of seeing him from afar, you know, over these last five months?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

He definitely is a guy with a lot of energy. He's definitely a guy with charisma. Now the question is, can he manage in the major leagues? We know he can do it in college. And any interactions he's had with the media, any things we've seen from him in his public forms, I don't think too much about that or worry too much about it. I want to see how he handles a bullpen, how he handles the rigors of 162 games, and all of that. And it seems like he's a really smart guy. And if he's going to make mistakes, I'm sure he will, because anybody in new job is going to make mistakes. Anyone who's done the job for a long time in their jobs are going to make mistakes. But it's how he learns, how he adapts, and how he is going forward. And it's actually justice to me one of the most interesting stories of the entire season around baseball.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

I mean, kind of building off that, you know, we've, you know, you think about, you know, you talk about like unique talents. Like we're obviously in a very interesting sphere in that we have Otani who's a unique talent, Aaron Judge even who's unique talent. But when we think of managers, we don't think of that, there's not too many more opportunities for something to be truly unique. And you've obviously covered the game for a while. Like, this does this feel like the most unique circumstances of any manager you'll hire, at least in recent memory, that you've seen.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I would say it's right up there. I always hate to say, oh, it's the most. Yeah. Absolutely, this is it. Because there are examples throughout history where maybe it was even more usual. But uh His hiring, Blake Butera in Washington, age 31 or whatever he is, really out of the minor leagues, that was different too. And we've seen over the years teams increasingly take chances in non-traditional ways. Sometimes it's worked, sometimes it hasn't. I remember when Aaron Boone was hired by the Yankees.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

That's what I was gonna ask.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

No coaching or managing experience. I think I was the only guy in the country, the only writer in the country to say, hey, what are we doing here? Obviously, it's worked out pretty well. I know Yankee fans might disagree, but he's had great success. So you kind of never know, and that whole experience, even with Boone and others as well, kind of taught me wait and see. Let's not pass judgment until we see how these different people adapt because there are managers who are unique. And Vitello might be one of them. He might be the guy who can go from the college ranks to major leagues without professional experience to succeed. We just don't know that yet.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

And one of the interesting points about the Vitello hiring that I've seen a lot of people make is that you know the collegiate game and the professional game have never been closer. Obviously, you've got guys like Paul Skeens, Nick Kurtz, Jacob Wilson who have made it to the majors either, you know, bef prior to a year after being drafted or just a little bit after a year. Do you think that, you know, is in his favor, you know, just the fact that these games are kind of merging in a sense that they've never been before?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yes, Justice. And in our meeting today with him, the Fox Broadcasters meeting, we asked him about some of the differences. And one of the things he said that stood out to me, and I was gonna ask him this, he brought it up, the analytics that they get in college is not much different than the analytics they get in the majors. And what is being used in the majors, as we know, is quite advanced. So that is just one area where it's similar, and there are other areas too where it has become less distinct from one another over the years. Development, for instance. We see a lot of development in the major leagues now. Well, what do college teams do? They're developing players. So there is something to be said for that, but there are huge differences too. Handling a college player versus handling a major league player, maybe a guy with a hundred million dollar contract. I know the NIL is money, but it's a whole that's a whole different thing. It's not that kind of money. Yeah. So, yes, it it's just interesting for all these reasons. And you're right, there are similarities and there are differences.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

One of the, you know, obviously a lot has been made about Baitello, but you know, he's just kind of one part of the ecosystem here. He's not the one that's playing these games. The players are the ones that play the games, obviously. And the Giants, you know, following the the signing of Adamus, the big trade of Rafael Devers, they didn't exactly make like one super big splashy move. It was kind of to borrow a Golden State Warriors term, it was a lot of strength in numbers here. And I remember you going on foul territory. I think this was before some of the hot signings had been made, but you said that something to the effect of, you know, they went out and make the Adamus move, the Devers trade, and they they haven't really, you know, gone out and you know, supplanted that with another big kind of splashy move that's of substance. Just what did you make of the Giants off season as a whole, going with more of like kind of this strength in numbers approach as opposed to just getting maybe one or two big fishes?

SPEAKER_00 47:12

I thought it was a little curious, honestly, because once you plunge, as they have plunged with Adamish Chapman and Devers, then you sort of have to keep going. They didn't really do that. They didn't do that. And Tyler Malley's pitching today, he is a really good pitcher when he's healthy. Adrian Hauser can be a quality Major League pitcher, no question about it. These guys could turn out to be as good as some of the guys who got big money. We know that. But at the same time, if this team had a true ace besides Webb, of course they have a true ace, but another complimentary type number one or two starter, I'd like them a lot better. They also didn't really spend in the bullpen, where they gutted themselves at the deadline last year. Now it all might work out. I know they're high on a lot of their younger arms, but it was, I would use that word again, curious to me that they didn't maybe go out on a further limb.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

We've talked about the bullpen a lot on this show, and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about the bullpen a lot over the course of the show. Ken, the one thing I'll kind of leave you here with, the last question I'll leave you here with, going back to Vitello, as you see him navigate, you know, his first full 162, what particular area of the managerial sphere are you most curious to see how he navigates? Because there's obviously the grind, it's 162 versus, you know, if we count up all the exhibitions in spring training, we're already halfway through a collegiate season. There's, as you mentioned, you're dealing with multimillionaires. What specific element of his first year are you most curious to see how he navigates?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Steadiness. And we saw yesterday his reaction post-game when he took it on himself to say, hey, maybe I had too much fire in Brimstone. These guys don't care. These guys lose two games, it's okay. He lost first two, and it seemed like he was, okay, I've got to take responsibility here. When really all he had to say, in my opinion, was it's two games, we face great pitching, let's go. He'll learn, and it's gotta come, but that is the thing that I am most interested to see. Listen, they're gonna lose six, seven, eight straight at one point. How's it gonna handle that? They're gonna win six, seven, eight straight at one point. How's it gonna handle that? And that whole thing, it's just different than college. When you play 60, 70 games at most. This is a grind. We all know that you cannot judge a team off two games or three games. In fact, there's been numerous examples lately, recent years, where June 1st wasn't a great judge. Things have happened after June 1st that, whoa, you didn't expect based on the first two months. So that to me is the thing. How does he handle the whole grind?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Steadiness, steadiness, steadiness. Ken, usually the thing that I ask guests as they're departing is where can we find your work? The people know where they can find your work. So I'll ask you this: what where's the de the bow tile? What's it dedicated to tonight?

SPEAKER_00 50:03

That's what I think It's actually a San Francisco-based charity. Old School Cafe. It is a restaurant that is run by essentially disadvantaged youth. It's kind of a cool one. And I only wear this one in San Francisco, it's only relevant in San Francisco, but old school cafe, O L D S K O O L, and it's something that actually is a good one for us to do as our group, the Bowtie Cause, because it's local and has a significant impact.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Ken, I appreciate you for coming on, and hopefully we can do this again later down the road. Alright, Justice, thanks, man.