Splash Considerations Ep. 23: Just Baseball Questions (feat. Tim Kawakami)

In Episode 23 of Splash Considerations, Justice is joined by Tim Kawakami (@timkawakami) of the San Francisco Standard. Tim and Justice discuss Buster Posey's tense press conference on Tuesday, Rafael Devers' rare public comments and whether Tim still believes the team should rebuild.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Splash Considerations. My name is Justice Delosantos, San Francisco Giants Beat Reporter for the Bay Area News Group, San Jose Mercury News, East Bay Times, whatever you want to call us, as long as you read, as long as you subscribe. And speaking of subscribe, subscribe to us on YouTube. Follow us on Apple, follow us on Spotify. A lot of things in this world cost a lot of money, but subscribing and following those things remain free. And I'm joined now by Mr. Blame Me himself. Blame me. Blame me blocks. Then Hakeem Korean. There were some today.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

There were some today.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Kimbe. Tim Kawakami, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Good to be with you, Justice. If I am slightly distracted, it's only because Japan leads Sweden won nothing here in the second half here, and we got some security walking through. Oh, this is good stuff. This is good.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

This is live stuff. This is at the ballpark. This is right after the uh Giants.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah, I stopped watching. Giants were Giants were up 6'2 in the seventh, thought clearly they had this game under control. I knew they were gonna win, obviously, right? That's what happened if I looked away.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yeah, the team that hasn't swept all year was denied another opportunity to sweep. So they got, you know, we got to wait at least three more days to see if they're gonna get another opportunity to do something. They won the first two games, though, but come on now. What do you want? BDAs. Come on. What else do you want? What else could you want? Um, but obviously we get we got a lot more to talk about other than these three games against uh the nomadic athletics, at least for the time being. I guess that stadium in Vegas is kind of close to being built. Uh Tim, we got a lot to talk about, but before getting into uh everything that transpired on Tuesday, kind of your reaction to it, I just wanted to quickly recognize what had happened in Venezuela. There's uh two earthquakes magnitude 7.2, uh 7.5 that struck the northern area of the region. Giants had four members of the team, uh, Victor Barricotto, Luisa Rice, uh Jose Buto, and bullpen catcher Elias Zembrano wear caps today that had the VZ uh in honor of Venezuela. And it's been an especially roller coaster of a ride of the last two days for Victor Barricotto. Uh in particular, we talked to him uh before today's game. Uh he found out about the earthquake before yesterday's game. It was his first start in two weeks. Uh records an outfield assist, hits a walk-off homer, and then when he gets back to the clubhouse, it's only then he understands the severity of what had happened in Venezuela. Unfortunately, his uh brother's girlfriend uh died as a result of the earthquake. As as we speak right now, there have been uh 188 deaths uh that have been come out of that earthquake. So I just wanted to quickly acknowledge that before getting into the kind of meat and potatoes here. And as Tony Vitello said, you know, it's moments like this where you gotta remember to laugh. And so hopefully over the next 20 minutes or so, TK, we can we can laugh a little bit. And so to provide some levity, I I suppose I think the first place that I want to start and ask you with is you've covered this region a long time. You were born and raised here, you've seen a lot of sports teams, you've seen a lot of Giants teams. How many teams have you seen that have just, you know, the amount of weird stuff that just constantly crops up on a pretty much a weekly basis?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Well, remember the Raiders were here. The Raiders were here, they were here for a while. You gotta put that one way off to the side, and you've got the Warriors under Chris Cohan. So, I mean, there there's been some weird things. I think maybe for a team that you thought maybe had it sort of buttoned down, or at least was headed in that direction, and a you know, team president you thought was buttoned down, and we didn't know with a manager, but you had veterans kind of you know, the the far anxiety era was kind of had its own weird tensions and fans not really trusting him. And you go, okay, you're gonna hand it over to the guy they're absolutely gonna trust, that everyone on the team is gonna trust Buster Posey. So maybe things will feel smoother. Well, like Bob Melvin the first year, then fires him, uh Tony Vitello, and then obviously all the stuff that's happening this year, leading with, and I will I will say this: I am a sports guy, we are sports writers. The most important thing that's happened is franchises, they're terrible right now, right? They're playing terribly. Everything else is, I understand why it's important. I understand it's very important to a lot of people. Uh, it's important if you care about the credibility of this team. But the wins and losses are what we mostly talk about. If everything else spleets into shows you that they're a disruptive organization in many other ways, yeah, that all is part of it. But if they were winning, it really wouldn't be this incredible crisis that you feel. It still wouldn't be good, the Pride Knight controversies and the way they've handled it. But you at least say, okay, this is a team that's still got some things together, that has figured out some things. They still might yet, uh, maybe not this season, but uh, I keep talking about those really elite players, young players they have in the system, is the whole thing right now. It's the whole thing for the Giants, other than making sure they don't do embarrassing things either on the field or uh on their baseball caps or however else we're gonna discuss this. But um, yeah, I think it's more like this wasn't supposed to happen like this. This wasn't the way it was supposed to unfold. This wasn't the way Giants thought they would feel about this team. This, you know, this wasn't the way you thought Buster Posey was gonna run things. Um, you know, didn't think this was a great team, didn't think everything was solved, but didn't think it was gonna be like unraveling like this. Now, I do think in the moment it feels always feels bigger than what it is. I think in the moment, oh my God, this whole thing's coming down. And and I the one thing Posey and I, I think we're relatively similar in some ways. I don't know if he would agree with that, but I've always kind of like just get to the next day and to the like it's not all over because one bad day. You do get to the next day, the next day, the next day. I think the season is mostly the competitiveness of it is over, but then you try to build to the next season if he gets through that one and the next season. Uh, I will say the crisis has been bad. This has been bad stuff. But the only way you get through it is to put your feet down and keep going. And I think Posey for sure is determined to do that. And I think he what he likes about Vitello so far, and then we'll find out at some point down the road if he's gonna come back as a manager next year, is that he doesn't sense, or at least hasn't, when I've talked to him recently, that Vitello's been just you know stunned by all this and doesn't know what to do. Now, we can talk about the managing moves, we can talk about the control of the clubhouse, we can talk about all these other things, but I don't know, you're around him more than I am. But like, does he seem shattered? Does he seem completely at a loss? You know, you can have versions of that, percentages of that, you know. I think that's the most important thing, though. Get through this like you know you're gonna get through it. Not like, oh my God, what do we do now? They got to change some players, right? They've got to change some players. No, no matter what happens, there's this roster cannot come back like this. And it will be changed, I imagine, by the trade deadline in some ways. And then there may be some dramatic changes going into next season. You can only figure out how to do it if you keep trying. And I think that's the one thing I get from Posey is that he doesn't want the standard crisis. Oh my God, we're horrible. What have we done to oh my God, please forgive me? Buster Posey ain't doing that. He's not doing that. That's what I wrote for today's uh uh standard. It's like if you're hoping for Buster Posey to say, we screwed up, oh my God, part of my shield, what have I done? Please, please, please forgive me, that is not happening. It's not happening. Uh maybe it should, or versions of it should. It is not happening with Buster Posey. And I get that. And I do understand some of that. If even if I've screwed up a little bit or something's happened on my watch that wasn't right, I'll I will admit it if I can. But also if if 10,000 people are lining up and demanding that there be sacrifices and I quit or I admit this, I'm gonna, that's one thing I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do what you tell me to do. Uh, I'm not gonna do the PR dance. Probably should have done it, right? Posey probably should have done it. Did not happen. He's not that person. He's got to fix the baseball team. Uh, and the way I've thought about it is he's not gonna want to lecture players on how to behave. Absolutely not. He did not want that as a player. Uh, that's not how the 2010, 2012, 2014 teams won championships. Brian Sabian did not lecture people, did not ever, didn't do it. But also, you got to gather players who you don't have to lecture, who don't have to be badgered into doing the right thing, who won't embarrass you. And that's clearly not what happened with the four pitchers on Pride Night, and not what happened with with Raphael Devers at first base in Miami. Um, like, hey, maybe it'll keep happening and they'll have to make incredible changes. Uh, maybe it won't. Maybe you weed through that, but we weren't gonna hear Buster Posey say, Raphael Devers, you've embarrassed the team. I am I am lucky. That is no, I'm gonna wave my finger at you. That's what I'm gonna do. That was not happening. Doesn't mean that Rafael Devers is for sure on this team next season, if they can possibly get rid of that contract. Doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you know, like you can't make changes to those four pitchers. Uh, I don't know Rue pitched today and he pitched fine. I think he's a pretty good pitcher. Um, but doesn't mean that this isn't being filed down in like, okay, when this thing turns around, are these the players who are gonna do it? I would probably vote for the majority or not the players who are gonna do it. Um, but we'll see again. Just not we're not gonna hear that from Buster Posey. Just not gonna do it. If that's very important to fans, and I imagine it might be, then it's not coming from him, and you gotta accept that. And you can be really upset about it and want him to be gone, can be really upset about that and and and hope he does better, or you can just say this is the way it is and win some baseball games.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, and you wrote about that in your your column this morning at the San Francisco Center. Go subscribe if you aren't subscribed. There you go. So you're selling your own stuff, gotta sell some other stuff. I gotta sell some other stuff as well. But you know, obviously I wasn't around for Posey's playing days, I've only been around for his time and his tenure as president of baseball operations. You obviously have, and the one point that you hit on is that, as you mentioned, he wasn't, regardless of what subjects he was willing or unwilling to hit on on Tuesday. It's never really been his MO to you know step on a soapbox and air everything out and kind of say the flashy things that are gonna grab headlines. Now, granted, he did generate headlines for a very different reason, which this was this is a good opportunity to segue into kind of just rattling off what happened to kind of set the stage for Tuesday. So Tuesday morning, the Giants send out a press uh send out a notification that Posey is gonna be having a press conference at two o'clock, and it wasn't a secret as to what the subjects were gonna be. Obviously, on Sunday, Raphael Devers waves off Sony Vitello, a very embarrassing moment on all fronts. Uh there have been multiple reports that the Giants were effectively open for business and especially important, open offers for Devers, Chapman, and Adamas. But as you alluded to, the most important issue was the Pride Knight controversy issue, matter, whatever word you want to use. It it hadn't just broken containment in the Bay Area, it hadn't just broken containment as far as sports, like this became a national level story where you got the vice president talking about it, the commissioners throwing them under the bus saying that you know the communication was inadequate and clear. So, but this was Posey's opportunity to talk about all of this and the subsequent fallout from all of this. And the the where I'll lob it over to you is he had his opening statement in regards to Pride Night, and that was it. You know, there were some very fair questions that were presented in response to that, and he said he wanted to keep it in the realm of baseball-related questions. Now, you can quibble over whether the commissioner of Major League Baseball throwing the team under the bus makes this a baseball-related issue, but that's just semantics at that point. But the the where I want to keep it. It's all baseball. It's all baseball because baseball team, you know. It's all baseball. Um, but where I wanted to, you know, leave it over to you is you know, just what was your how did you internalize what he said? Were you surprised? Uh evidently by in reading your column, you were not surprised by the approach that you took.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

When I knew he was doing it, I and I've talked to maybe a few other people who knew there's no way he was gonna. I mean, I didn't think it was gonna be as terse as this. I don't think that structure of that large group of people with 10 cameras around him, sitting in the dugout, is the best way for most people to handle things. It's definitely not the best way that, but you know, it's not a comfortable environment for Buster Posey. It is, you know, it wasn't for Far Gallons ID. It's just it's a tough situation. You're kind of getting stuff from all angles. He didn't love it as a player. I know he didn't. Um, and he that was not a comfortable thing for him to do. But I knew he wasn't gonna say, you know, this is the greatest crisis in the history of our franchise, and I shall address this now, and I shall speak my heart, and I will be speaking at you know, LGBTQ, you know, community events, and like he just wasn't going to do that. He doesn't feel that's part of this. Um, you can absolutely have a problem with it. I'm not saying you don't. What I don't do is say he must do this. He's gonna do what he's gonna do, and then he's going to hear the reaction from it. And this is I just don't think he meant it as a political gesture. And I do think God, you know, God knows in this environment everything's taken politically. Everything's either a left-wing thing or a right wing thing, everything is either part of this administration or anti-this administration. I really don't think Posey thought that. And maybe if he knew it was going to come off as that, maybe it slightly did, um, he would rethink maybe some of the wording, at least just say, hey, we absolutely embrace this community. The night is meant to be that. We want to embrace all communities are part of this family, and we want to make sure everyone knows where they're welcome here. That's what this night's about. That's what this night has been about for years. I'm pretty sure I was pretty sure he wasn't gonna say that either. Now, the tension of it, the brusqueness of it, um, you know, that went to a different place, and that's what really took off. And I understand that. I'm understanding any complaint someone would have about what he did. I just knew he wasn't gonna do it. And, you know, as and Andy Baggerly wrote, and I think it's fair, by not saying anything, it makes you wonder if he maybe wanted to say more that would have pissed people off even more, if you know what I mean. I don't know. I just don't think he felt that this was a political statement by him. Uh probably should have known that. People around him should have known that. It just didn't happen like that. Um, I think all the questions are fair. I think all the conclusions are fair. I don't think it's the end of a franchise's credibility. I think it is a dent. I think, you know, again, I understand not wanting to be pressured into something you don't want to say. I absolutely understand that. I feel that many times. And I mean, probably tell it reading my column, I wasn't going to say things just because people want you to say things. And I have people on the right and people on the left both really mad at me right now. Blame you. Blame you. Yeah, almost always that almost always happens. But sometimes I feel that's exactly the way I want to be here. Uh, I'm not gonna be lectured to. I'm not gonna, you know, feel like everything has to be said in a certain way, but I'm also not gonna be pressured on the other way. Um, so I got all that. It could have been done smoother. They could have had Larry Bear out there. But uh the other thing is I do, I think I think Posey felt like I'm the president and I'm not the face of this franchise. I'm the face of this franchise, so I should be the one to say nothing, to say nothing, but at least be sitting here. Uh some part of that is respectable. I know fans will be some fans will be upset for me saying that, but I get that. Uh they put Larry Bear on the radio, and I know Ken BR, whatever. It was supposed to be a Buster interview, and but I knew Buster wasn't gonna do that. I don't know if Buster will ever do that again. This is back to the Brian Murphy interview. I just don't think it's a good that's a good format for him. Um, so we'll see. Um, you know, I I don't know what teams really get out of this anymore, uh out of these, you know, you must do these.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

I mean Aaron Boone's going on the John Boy podcast, so it's kind of just like it's it's up to your discretion, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, it's like do you do teams, these this old-fashioned coach inner, you know, coach shows. Do you really get anything out of that if you don't like the hosts or you don't like the vibe? Anyway, Posey was supposed to be on and he wasn't. So that's I understand the reaction to that. I don't know that Larry Bear speaking now, you know, two, three days later is going to change the temperature of this. I'm sure he'd try, but um it's it it is a team that is not currently set up to deal with stuff like this. The best way not to have to deal with the stuff like this, Justice, is don't get into this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Uh you know, I mean you're saying two or three days later, we this all unfolded on June 12th, and I'm saying two or three days after Buster. Yeah, yeah, but you know, it's no, this is a yeah, no question.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Someone should now they went on the road, like you yeah, there's there's practical reasons, like well, you you know, you guys were on the road. Is Buster gonna come in on a Zoom channel, you know, if he isn't with I don't know. Uh but yeah, they really could have used a Steve Kerr figure in this franchise, right? Could use somebody who, like, oh yeah, you're speaking for the team and you're gonna do it in a way that everyone gets that your heart is in this. Buster's heart is not in this, not in that part of it. And again, if people really, really wanted a team president of baseball operations who could have spoken spoken to the this, it was Forhan Zaidi, coincidentally, who Giants fans largely disliked and felt was an outsider. And Buster Posey, who is one of these championships, was the heart of that franchise, is the guy everyone, you know, in black and bright and orange or whatever colors you want to assign the Giants believes in. He wasn't gonna say it. He just wasn't gonna say it. So Giants fans have to deal with that. And I think the easiest way to deal with it is for the Giants to get this together, get some players who you don't have to worry about, who can win games. Uh and that might be a little harder than just saying those words, but I think that is the solution to this, or it's Posey's just gonna not be the president anymore. I think he will be the president through into next season, and then maybe we'll see how next season goes. But um, it's awfully hard to hard to fire buster Posey when he's also an owner. So it's good, that's gonna be pretty tricky. And if he still wants to do it, which I imagine he does, I don't, again, knowing him, he's not gonna walk away now. Like he's not gonna want like this as down as they are. Oh, wait a minute, I couldn't do it. So when they're 14 games under 500 or whatever they are, that's when I leave. He's gonna want to get this job done if he can. It will go into next season. I'm gonna be curious to see who's on this team among those four, maybe, maybe others, uh among Devers, who's gonna be really hard to move. But if you eat the money, you can move them, I'm pretty sure. You're gonna have to eat a lot of money, but do they a lot of money? Do they have the stomach for that? Well, I mean, we'll see. You know, you're gonna have Bryce Aldrich making very little money at that position, essentially. It's gonna be, you know, a negotiation with other teams. It's gonna be get a sense of what that pop could you give up one of the prospects in order to lessen the money cost. I wouldn't do it if I was them, but it's not my money. I think those prospects are the ones you hold on to at the very end until you get to extract the most talent you can from them. You don't do a financial, you don't trade them for financial reasons, but we'll see. Uh but yes, that's just my number one thought going into that presser, coming out of it, writing that column, the whole thing. Man, if you were looking for Buster Posey to be your moral arbiter, you were wrong. It is not gonna happen. And the Giants fans can walk away from the team if they don't like it, or they can continue cheering for them and do whatever they want to. But then that part I know is true. I've known it from the beginning, from the beginning when he was hired. That ain't him. He's not, he's not hard on sleeve guy. Never was as a player. He will say, you know, interesting things, but it's not gonna be that emotive, that gusher, gusting of feeling. That is not him. And maybe this moment called for something like that. But guys have strengths in other areas, you know, and his strength we'll see, you know, presumably is in many other areas. Uh, it's not that. And man, did we get that uh shown to us as loudly as possible uh on Tuesday?

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah, and he his propensity to say interesting things, like there'll be times when you know, shut the recorder off, go upstairs, transcribe, and re-listen, and you go and realize, like, oh, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Like it's in phrases, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, like yesterday, or not yesterday, Tuesday, like one of the phrases that really stuck out is you know, it's a sports is a meritocracy, and if you don't win, then you have to make hard decisions, and it's kind of like, oh, it's like one of those things, like in the moment, you don't even like realize the magnitude of until you listen up again.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Well, just or some of the things that he said about Bailey before he traded Bailey, like you just the words aren't exactly saying what you think, but if you know him and you know the gravity that he uses these words with, you kind of understand. I think you know, most of the people around the team knew that he was a little down on Bailey. And then Bailey gets rid of it that's why I'm saying with these players, it was not gonna be an announcement right now. There's not gonna be a hammering. Let's see their future with the team. Maybe they're great. Okay, Roop, you know, I'm not saying he's they're dumping Roop. I think Roop's a good player. But um just let's see, it's just not gonna be fired off for one day's PR victory, I guess. I may maybe what I'm saying more than anything.

unknown 21:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Wins and losses, though, right? It doesn't matter if you're terrible. But I would watch this. I would watch, like, you know, he he wasn't great talking about Devers in the base running thing. He's not ripping Devers. That's not happening. He might trade Devers, right? I mean, you know, let's see how this plays out. Maybe it doesn't play out in time for Buster not to lose his job. I let's see it though. It's just not going to be a one-day PR victory, I think, is not what you're going to get from Buster Posey. Um, and he's not going to want to blame people. He's you know, Vitello, I think he's gonna hold on to Vitello as long as he can. That doesn't mean it's gonna absolutely go through next year. We'll see. But um it's just the sometimes I do think people just want a one-day PR win. And I don't always think that's the right way to go. And sometimes on social media, it's a one-hour PR victory or a one-minute PR victory. It's oh I won! I've won right now. But okay, what about the next the next 23 hours of the day? What about the next five months? So again, you can see where I understand a lot of this if you start making right decisions. You know, he's made one or two decent decisions, he's made some bad ones, but I don't like the planting the flag and say, we won the moment, we won the moment. Just make sure that you win every moment. Try to win every moment, not have Twitter salute you for 50 minutes. Uh that part I definitely understand with him.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah. To the point that you mentioned, you know, winning doesn't quite heal everything, but it heals a lot of things. And it heals a lot of things. And the Giants are currently 33 and 47. If they were if they were 47 and 33, and everything that transpired over the last five days transpired in the exact same way that it did, this is a very different conversation. But you mentioned Devers. Uh if you want to talk about one-day PR victories, this was a this is a this is a more than one, this is a multi-day PR loss for Rafael Divers because this is a man who does not communicate with us a lot as is, and I'm always of the camp that you know I'm not uh entitled to somebody's time. You know, I'm not gonna, you know, drag somebody out of their locker and say they have to talk to us, but uh he talked to us for the first time since I want to say Philly in April. I think that was when he was April. Yeah, it was April. He was really struggling, and we had an opportunity to talk him through those struggles. And uh he if you're saying blame me, he was doing a lot of blame you. Blame you, you just doing a blame you, he was blaming blaming us, he was blaming Shana Rubin and Susan Slesser and Evan and Alex Ball. Come on, he's blaming all of us, yeah. And he's saying John Shea, he was blaming Sean Shea and blaming you know, and saying that everything that happened on Sunday was blown out of proportion. Um I don't know, Tim. I don't I don't think it was blown out of proportion. I think there was an appropriate level of proportion there given you know he's waving off of his manager and he's yelling into his helmet and he's he's dodging a butt tap, Tim, yeah, in the dugout.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a sensitive guy. He's clearly has a temper. We that's what happened in Boston. Um, but the difference is in Boston, even when he was in controversy in Boston, he was hitting the hell out of the ball, right? He's just a born hitter. Hadn't happened here. That's the issue. And the one thing I will say is like you, you know, good point. If they were 47-33, this wouldn't matter. I think what fans feel though, and maybe Posey and Vitel, like part of this are the symptoms of a team that would be this bad, right? That's that you feel that it isn't maybe exactly you can't exactly put this, but this is what a player who's having a terrible year would do. And maybe it's a a reason why he's terrible at the moment. He gets into himself and he blames everyone else, and he just doesn't talk it out. And I don't think, you know, here's I my own PR thing with him. Like he talked to you in Philly, there were no TV cameras around, whatever it happens. He does it here, there's TV cameras because he has to, because it's Devers, and that thing came off terribly. And then you could just see him. Are you gonna apologize? Well, I did uh no, are you gonna apologize? He did not like the repeated are you gonna be misunderstanding. Yeah, misunderstanding. He didn't like that, and so at the very end, he's gotta do the spiel. It's only a big deal because of you guys, all you guys do is try to make an idea because I don't talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

And he kind of back on it too. It's like he had his answer, and then he's he went back for more.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

He you could just on the video, you can see it building, you can see it building. He's clearly what he really feels, and hey, it's fair, you know. Yeah, I can you can hate in the media all you want to, but the media does mostly, and yeah, this ain't Boston, by the way, this ain't New York, it's in Philadelphia. Uh this is a guy having a terrible what 0.2 war at the moment, 0.5, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, it's just barely above league average by OPS plus. And the thing with when he was acquired last year, like he did take a little bit of a step back. He struggled early on, but he was still in that 135 OPS plus range. He still had his 30 plus homers career high in walks. But this year, I I think by just OPS plus, he's probably like the fourth best hitter on this team right now, maybe fifth, depending on how today's game goes. He just hasn't been the same Raphael Deber's as we saw last year or even in Boston.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

And he's cut hoed $31 million a year through 2033. He's 29 now. He is not in the best of shape. Just say it, maybe it's me being terrible to him, but he's not in the best of shape, clearly. Uh, limited defensively. That's like, hey, this is that's not his all his fault. It was opposed, he acquired him and assume that contract. I think, and I think I've hinted very broadly many times uh in my writing, and what I've said is I don't think he's gonna be on, you know, he should not be guaranteed four to five at bats every game anymore. I don't think he should be. Now he can get hot, things change, but a guy who can't hit a 97-mile profile. Now, he did hit the home run yesterday, and that was on a fastball. So it's maybe he he that's coming around, maybe it's not, maybe that just was a little random moment. I think it just it's problematic to say because we're paying him $31 million, we got to throw away three outs a game. Just throw away. We're throwing them away because he's not any good, but we're paying him. Uh, not when you have Bryce Aldridge there. And I don't love having two first baseman DHs who are left-handed. Uh, I don't love that. Uh, I think you could use another one be more flexible with the DH spot with that. You probably would want a right-handed hitter there. Uh, you get awfully left-handed and they just get destroyed by lefties in the late innings, right? I mean, you line up lefties against uh a good left-handed reliever in the seventh inning, and you're out, out, out. That's not great the way great lineups have are built, and we know they're not a great lineup. I think they have to, you know, what's it gonna take for them to get out of Devers? That's I think they have to be thinking that. Uh, is it pay down, you know, $15 million a year through 33? That's not great. But what would you rather have? A hole in your roster and Bryce Eldridge like looking over his shoulder, like when is he gonna get steady at bats? Um, if Eliel Ramos is back and he's playing well, what are you doing there, right? That's where you'd put, you want him as your right-handed DH. So who's your first baseman? Like these are things that are now beginning to have to sort be sorted out. I just don't that and I just don't think Devers is the answer, and he's an ultimate sunk cost. In a lesser way, Adam is a sunk cost, but I think you can hang with that. And he's not a great player, he's not worth the money he's making. But he'll hit your home run. He's a good guy. Talks to the media, Justice. So clearly, like we're just biased towards him. I know you are, you're biased towards him. Uh, but maybe not Susan, maybe not Susan, Susan and Baggerly and Shea. But um, he can play second base. You know, I do think one of those young shortstops might be ready by the middle of next season. Um, I think Chapman is a bit of a sunk cost, although he's been better. Uh his defense kind of rises the level there. But I think they have to make that some hard decisions. Like, do you're are you just doing this because you paid this money? That's what doubling the mistake. It's doubling the mistake. And if you can accept paying out $15 million for nothing, which I think they're rich enough to do, especially with these young guys coming up who are gonna make nothing for a while. I I would say there's a 50-50 shot that Devers is not on this team next season, or at least by the trade deadline. And maybe he's hitting the ball crazy the rest of the season, and I look sound stupid, or maybe they trade him and then he takes off for Milwaukee or whoever they would trade him to. But man, I I just think it's doubling the mistake or tripling this mistake or quadrupling the mistake if you just keep him in there because you're paying him all this money. If you can figure out a way out of it. If you're a rich team, there's ways out of it. And maybe it means you don't sign some other free agent because that money's now wasted to Devers. Okay, your free agents haven't been that great anyway. Like, you know, this is like so you don't have to pay for the next Williadon's. Okay, I think you can accept that. Um, maybe it costs you Kevin Gossman, right? That's we're thinking practically, that's not great, but I think it's almost better not to be wasting four at bats every game and just dreading this decision. Just go ahead and make it. So I'm like, just if you're gonna do it eventually, just do it. Um let's see how this holds up, Justice. Let's see, let's see how this decision, this thought, this uh take holds up. But that's I've been headed this way for a while. It's not just driven there because he doesn't talk to me, it's not just driven there because of the thing at first base on my in Miami and whatever. It's just because I don't think he's very good. I just don't think he's very good. And um you can't blow seasons because you've invested on something that he used to be. But if you gotta be betting on what he's gonna be, and man, we're getting a big example of what he is.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah. And you mentioned sunk cost. This is kind of uh an example of the theory of sunk cost fallacy. And you know, to the point about the money that he's making, I I looked this up a couple days ago. There have been 16 players in Major League history who have signed a contract in excess of at least $300 million. Two of them have been traded, that being Giancarlo Stanton and Rafael Devers. None of them have been traded twice. So to the point that you're making, if the Giants are gonna have to, if they want to get off this deal, if they're going to get off this deal, it's gonna take something creative. Now, to the point you made, like it's if you apply or if you attach some prospect capital, like maybe that sweetens the deal, but they don't want to do that because if you're giving him away or if you're trading him, then they're gonna need someone to subsequently supplant or supplement him, especially if you know they're not gonna replace that money that's going to the roster. So it's it's gonna be tricky. I'm not I'm not sure exactly how they do it, and I think this is a good segue into the the final question I'll leave you with. It was about a month ago, after they got swept by the diamondbacks, which just kind of feels like forever ago at this point, um, that you wrote that this is this team needs to rebuild, and a month from removed from that column. I'm curious, like, do you feel the same way? Do you think that's no? I think they should go for it just as go, man. Come on. So like try to swallow the line, go both ways, but I I would I would imagine you still feel the same way.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Oh, absolutely. It's all about those prospects. And the fourth pick, they will have the fourth pick in the coming draft. And you know, that should be it was as I keep saying, it was Nick Kurtz two years ago or three years ago. Like that, if you get a Nick Kurtz, that changes everything. Uh maybe Bryce Aldridge will be like Nick Kurtz, can you have two of them? You know, like these are changed the dynamic of a team.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, well, here let me let me include this question in here as well. So among the many things that Posey said on Tuesday was that he affirmed they are not trading Logan Webb, which is by far their most valuable trade asset. He is he's look he's three straight outings of eight innings, he's looking like an all-star again. He's under contract through 2028. He's on a I I looked this up on Spot Track. Next year, I think his annual salary ranks like 53rd among all players, and then in 2028, it's like 50th. So this is a very team-friendly deal. Oh, yeah. So kind of lumped in that rebuild question.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

How would you rebuild for 2028, right? It's like they still want to be as good as they can be in 2027. So I guess another thing I hate to say, I keep saying this. I knew he was not gonna say they're gonna trade. Logan Web's off the table. He's still a young pitcher, he's what you want to have. You want to build your roster to have players like this. Maybe not players like Raphael Devers or you know, Matt Chapman or whoever else, but players like Logan Webb, absolutely. Um, so I uh it's a soft rebuild or whatever you want to call it, uh reasonable rebuild, I think is what I called it. All it really means is what we've heard the rumors to be. See what it is, see if you can unload Chapman Adamus Endeavors. I don't think they can, at least in the moment, or unless they're really uh willing to pay up and maybe you wait a little bit. Um, but never ever slight block delay Bryce Eldridge because you have those guys. Ever. And they're not really doing it. Never delay, have a problem with moving up Johnny Levell. I think Johnny Level might be their future shortstop. It just looks like it to me. He just looks like a he just looks like a guy, a major league, really good shortstop. Maybe not right away, we'll see. But just don't do nothing that screws that up. Do nothing that is like, oh, you know what? We could we could get this old guy here, and so what if we this if we got this young guy coming up at the end of 27? Nothing like that. Um, and that isn't like and and at that time, I would say trade Arias, which I think is gonna happen. Trade Robbie Ray, which now seems more and more potentially useful because he's looking better. If anyone else is on the roster is valuable elsewhere, I would trade Jung Hu at this point. I would. I know he's played very well. Maybe he's built up some trade value. I don't think he had any trade value going into the season. He's on a long-term deal, but I think you'd take that money. I'm not saying definitely trade him, but I'd think about it if somebody wanted him. I'd trade Heliot Ramos if somebody wanted. I'd trade anybody on this team. I would not trade Logan Webb because I do think he could be a one or two for three years. Like that's kind of the time frame here. Every every other name I mentioned, I'm not so sure. I totally understood trading Patrick Bailey. I did not was not a fan of his game, just wasn't. I think he's the worst, one of the worst hitters I've ever seen get regular at bats in baseball. Really, and the statistics prove it. Like the stits stats were there. But it's just more less of what they can do right now, because the main things would be trying to trade those three guys with a huge contract. It's gonna be hard. It's just reshape your thinking beyond everything possible to win right now, or even in 2027. You'd we would love to, but make sure those guys, those young guys, are set up to be as good as possible, with it, have room to run in in 2028, maybe end of 2027, uh, and don't think about if we make this incremental move and get this, get Darren Ruff back, and and maybe we can get, you know, whoever Wilmer Flores needs more, you know what that part, no. That's where I think has already happened, and I think we'll only increase in velocity as this thing becomes ever more clear. They're they're they're acknowledging what's happening again. That's kind of the weird part with the Giants being so bad right now, is I get everything they're doing. I could kind of guess at everything they're doing. It hasn't been right, so maybe that's bad for me, but they were souring up Patrick Bailey. I could just feel it. They traded Patrick Bailey. They're going to try to move these guys. Now they're trying to move these guys. Let's see what it looks like at the beginning of spring training in 2027. Uh, that's what I think they've been headed for a while now, and I don't I think it's only gonna be more clear.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

I mean, TK, you're talking about spring training 2027. I don't know. I don't know if you saw the latest CBA proposal, but that's right. I I don't know when spring training in 2027 is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

You know that they love max salaries tied to salary caps, right? You know that MLBPA, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

They saw they saw what the NBA has done for years as far as the the five-year cap with the you know, all the you know, putting a limit on money. Because that's what baseball players love. They love being limited as to how much.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Especially when it's what, 50% of what uh Ju Soto's new deal was. Like, yeah, there's you love this great deal here. Let's make sure no one ever comes close to it ever.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

No one's ever gonna come close. That's what the players are gonna love. They're gonna love that. They're gonna love eliminating high schoolers from the draft, they're gonna make making eliminating a level of the minor leagues. They're gonna love, love, love, love. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

That's a good point. Uh, maybe even better for the Giants. Just have a nice quiet period in 2027 when all those guys, all if you cancel the minor leagues and you screw up the Giants because you need those guys getting through. Who knows? I don't know. Owners are owners are wilding right now. Uh, we'll see what happened looks like in January or February. But yeah, there's a really good chance it's at least a shortened season in 2027.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

I mean, if you want to talk about owners wildin', Joe Lacob and Mike Dunley had the that was a that was a vibration. You you gotta understand a moment.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yeah, Joe Joe, you would put that on him if he's shopping, he's gonna look like he was mad at Mike Dunley. You put that on him when he's walking down the street, it's gonna look like he just is mad that there wasn't a trade. So uh everyone involved, everyone I've talked to said that was Joe being mad that the trade there was a bad trade offer, and he was like, just forget it. So uh, but yes, Joe Lacob is endlessly watchable. That's just his reactions tell incredible stories. Sometimes the stories you think they are, sometimes they're stories that you don't think they are. But uh hard to get away with the ever, ever dynamic Joe Lacob.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Joe Lacob being endlessly watchable. I hope that for the listeners, this will be endlessly watchable as well. TK, where can we find your work?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

San Francisco Standard, uh obviously NSFstandard.com, uh, where I'm with John Shea uh on Giant Stories. He can get me on TK Show Podcast, various podcasts within that with that framework, and also where it's plus minus off to Marcus Thompson and Nick Ferdell, various other things, but nothing like being on the Justice De Los Santos show. I mean, really, nothing like that. So glad to be.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

I mean, if you follow him on Twitter too, you two can be the latest to blame him. Blame me, blame me, Mr. Blame Me, Justice El Santos, Sims How Kami, Slash Considerations podcast. We will catch you in the next one.