Splash Considerations Ep. 31: The Gray Area (feat. Dieter Kurtenbach)

In Episode 31 of Splash Considerations, Justice is joined by the San Jose Mercury News' Dieter Kurtenbach (@dieter) to discuss his latest column on the team, the awkward timeline that the Giants find themselves navigating, the Spring Training-esque lineups that they've rolled out in recent days, the big picture issues facing the team going forward and who's worth watching for the rest of 2026. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Welcome to another episode of Last Considerations. My name is Justice Delos Santos, San Francisco Giants K reporter for the Bay Area News Group, San Jose Mercury News, East Bay Times, whatever you want to call us, as long as you read, as long as you subscribe. And speaking of subscribe, subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on Apple, follow us on Spotify. A lot of things in this world cost a lot of money, but subscribing and following, those things remain free 99 and just a moment of your time. And I'm joined now by my teammate, the esteemed columnist of the San Jose Mercury News Times of the Bay Area News Group, whatever you want to call us. As long as you read him, you love him, you hate him, but I'll be gosh darn if you don't listen to him. Dear Curtainbaugh, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Esteemed. Wow, we're already just telling lies here on the pod, Justice. Just just lying. Esteemed is probably very low on the list of adjectives I would uh I would say apply to me, but I am extremely happy to be here nevertheless.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Well, I think if we read off some of the the uh the adjectives that we saw in your mentions, uh I think we would be reduced to R-rated, maybe even X-rated. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Well, listen, I'm I'm always open to some uh I'm not here to kink shame. Um it's uh yeah, listen, Giants fans don't like me very much, but you know, uh sorry for for speaking speaking my truth, speaking the truth about a team that uh doesn't seem to like them very much either.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

I mean, I was thinking back to you know conversations we've had throughout the season. I was looking through some of your old bylines just throughout the spring that you've written about the Giants. Yeah, and I remember one that I lobbed to you was like the bullpen in February, and I was like I was like, yeah, I think, you know, I think we both were kind of kind of spot on on that one, among other things.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, just just a little bit. Um, it was not just that. I mean, that was obviously in the wake of an offseason where they it's like, oh, we brought in Jason Foley. It's like, okay, and what will that do for this year's team? Like, apologies to Jason Foley. Um, glad you showed up to the party, buddy, a little bit late. Not that that was never not the plan for him.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Great walkout song, though. Great walkout song. I'm blanking what it is. Yeah. While you talk, I'm gonna I'm gonna look this up real quick because it is it does deserve legitimate recognition.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Okay. Well, I I respect someone who takes the time, effort, and consideration to uh, and there you go, there's a there's a drop for you, to um to think of a good walk-up song. Because I think all baseball fans, if you're a true baseball fan, if you're a deep sicko, you know what you would come up to if you were coming to the plate for your at bat. You know what you'd come into um if it was, you know, you and just even the A fitting, right? We're not even gonna go the full Edwin Diaz, Timmy Trumpets, you know, obviously Enter Salmon. We're not even doing that. Like, what would you come into? And so uh I appreciate someone who thinks about it and uh and is interested in making sure that the crowd gets some work too, because there's a lot of guys who go up there and it's like buddy, this is a mood killer. I don't need to hear, I don't need to hear this right now. Um, whereas, you know, Mariana Rivera, he hated that song, but you know what it did?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

It got the people going. And thank you for stalling because the song is What is Love? It's a great sweat.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I thought I was losing my mind the other day when they're playing Hathaway's What is Love, classic song, Night the Roxbury made uh famous a second time. I was alive the first time it was famous. That that had a good run on B96 in Chicago for a very long time. Uh Baby Don't Hurt Me, Don't Hurt Me No More. I thought they were just playing that at the ballpark as some sort of song. Like, Don't Hurt Me No More is a pretty good thing to be declaring to the San Francisco Giants as, you know, here comes Jason Foley. Turns out it was Foley all along. He might be operating on levels that I can't comprehend.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

He's playing a 4D chess. Although I will say he's played it in Detroit, so this isn't uh he's not taking any sub shots here. He's just he's just got a great walkout song. I think it kind of in the same air as Jordan Hicks using uh sweet dreams, just great, great walkout song. Nothing's gonna beat some of your rhythmics.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

That's some good stuff. Annie Lennox, shout out.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Well, uh Dieter, I'm pretty sure we could talk about walkout songs for about an hour and then call it a day, but I think we do have to talk about some.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Can we please instead of talking about this baseball team? Which is the case. Well, okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

I'm trying to quit.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

My doctor said I need to quit.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Let's go 30 seconds real quick. Okay. Starting pitch, you're a starting pitcher, what you're walking.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Uh it would probably be I think I'd go something A C D C. And it's not because I love A C D C. Actually, you know what? Uh it would be I no, no, no, I'm gonna save that one. Let's go uh ACDC. I'd go Highway to Hell. I feel like that's just an easy one, gets people going, and sets a tone. Um I I I've I'm not built like a starting pitcher. Shout out Tugboat, we'll find out. So I never really considered the whole what would I be starting pitcher? Because you can get away with a more subtle song. I might even just go with like one of my favorite songs of all time, Werewolves of London by Warren Zevon. I mean, just when was the last time you heard Werewolves of London? It's always a great song.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

This tweet the other day that I was like, uh it was like I saw the it's a Chinese werewolf. He's like, I saw a menu, a man with a menu in his hand.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I saw a where a Chinese menu, I saw a werewolf with a Chinese menu in his hand, walking through the streets of Soho in the rain, looking for a place called Leho folks get a big get a big dish of beef chow main. You know, classic lyrics that we can all relate to, Justice.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I can I can personally relate to that lyrics. Uh, if I had to do it, the two songs that are constantly I go back and forth on, uh first is uh hella good by no doubt. I think it's just a good like very instant, everybody gets it. The other one, it really depends on how punctual your production team can be, which would be Short Chains Hero. Because you need like you need like about a good minute and a half to build up to that. And if like like I was even wondering the other day, I was like, where could if I wanted to like reduce this, where could I jump in? You need like the whole thing. Like that's why.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

What you get is the starting pitcher, so you can kind of do you almost want a song that builds a little bit, yeah. Uh, which I again, I I just haven't given too much consideration on the starting pitcher. I know that if I was coming in out of the bullpen, it would be one of two, and they're on the exact opposite ends of the spectrum. It would either be I get wet by Andrew WK, which is just an all-time banger, and y'all sleeping on Andrew WK and the I Get Wet album. And then, or two, and I've always thought that this would be the most badass thing to do, and I'm sure some UFC fighter has done it. I'm not in that world, I don't know. But the sound of silence by Simon and Garfunkel would absolutely kill if you were to come out and they were to do. I mean, everyone kind of has like a big sound effect, couldn't do the gong, obviously. Yeah, yeah, but like have some sound effect, like a crescendo, and then hello darkness, my old friend, and you come in and the lights are out, and you're like, oh, you would have to have a cool nickname though, like The Undertaker or the Gravedigger or something, in order for that to work.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah. And it's funny, like when I think about the Giants closing situation, not to take an um, not to take another dig at the bullpen, but they haven't really I don't think they've used the light show one time this year, maybe like once. Oh!

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Well, I think they they might have learned their lesson with Camilo Doval. It kind of all went downhill for our friend Camilla when it it it they started doing the light show. I kind of forgot it exists.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Anyway, Dita, we could talk about walkouts off the show.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

The light show happened when all these guys come in.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

It's the uh precedent hits that follow. Yeah, it is it is the roughness that's followed. I think if if anybody's keeping track, I think we've taken a shot at the bullpen now pretty much every podcast on this year. But Dieter, you wrote a column yesterday, you know, with the title uh There is No Silver Lining to the Most Pathetic Giants team in a decade. Uh you were at the Giants game on Wednesday, I believe. You caught a couple ones. You got to see uh the state of the team, yeah. Uh and to kind of provide, you know, a little bit of an update about how this past week went. They have uh they dropped two of three to the Astros, they dropped two of three to the Rockies. I was not at Sunday's game, Joseph Dyke is Gold's Day War before it was there, and he was uh I could tell in his writing that he was kind of flabbergasted as to what he was seeing. And this man covered the Warriors this past year. Yes, and the Giants have now dropped every single series since the trade deadline in the exact same way. They've lost two out of three. Yeah, they are 51 and 73. They are in a legitimate contingent for a hundred losses. So Dieter, with that having written that column yesterday, uh tell us how you really feel about the 2026 San Francisco Giants at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I'm actually in a much better place with them right now than I had been much earlier because now there's no pretense, there's no perception of what they should be. We just know that they are, and we can live in this terrible swamp of baseball that they that they live in. I mean, they're they're awful. Uh, this is what Mets fans must feel like all the time, except the Mets are actually competitive every now and again. Um it is it's an embarrassment of a baseball team, and it was a embarrassment of a baseball team from the jump. And I guess it's nice that there's less extracurricular nonsense, but that only means that people care less. And I you know, to show up the the the Adamas thing the other day where he does the the I know he's got the back thing, and and we'll circle back on that. But the the the flip and then one of the slowest men in baseball beating out the double play, followed by Barracotto dropping a fly ball, and you're like, this team isn't serious. There's nothing about them that gives you the indication that there's any sort of a turnaround, there's no glimmer of hope. That and that's kind of the main takeaway that I had. Like the wins and losses don't matter. They're not getting into anything. They can't even get a good draft pick out of this season. So the wins and losses don't matter. It's all about the micro. The macro is over. And yes, there are plenty of things, and I know you're doing you're doing a great job of this, where we can say, hey, you know, Drew Gilbert's on a heater. Like, what does this mean down the line? This picture actually looks pretty good. What does this mean down the line? Except if it was the middle of September, I could buy into that and it can give me some false hope for whatever next year is, if it exists. But we still have more than 35 games to play. So I'm also like, yeah, he was doing it now. Let me know in a month if it's still happening, and then we can get into the final two weeks of the season and hope it continues then. It's just brutal, brutal stuff. And when you're not when you don't have an overall organization ethos of what this season should be that lines up with reality, which is clearly what the Giants had. They thought they were going to compete this year. Well, that sure as hell ain't happening. And so now what is it they're doing? Because they're not really rebuilding, but they are kind of rebuilding, and I don't know if it's two timelines, no timelines, seven timelines, what, but I can watch the young guys out there and I can feel okay about the future there or not, right? They'll earn it, and and that is interesting to watch. But then you watch the old guys, and okay, Devers is is gotten it together, but is it three-time all-star Rafi Devers? No. Adamus, the whole situation that Chapman's out. Uh we're going up and down with Eldridge right now. He's not even a veteran, he just feels like a veteran given the constant rotation on this team. Um, it is it is a tough thing to lock into. It's a tough thing to watch. And again, I wish that I could just find this even let's break it down. Like, even two or three things where I'm like, this is what I'm focused in on the rest of the year. This is what I really care about. And outside of, I really hope that Bryce Eldridge, you know, works through it and looks like the guy that had that great streak there a little bit after he started getting regular playing time. I I got I got nothing. I got nothing. I uh the starting pitching, I don't have any faith is going to turn into anything more than maybe it is, obviously a level or two above as they get further into their careers, but like I don't think there's any future aces on this staff. Uh the bullpen, great. We can play bullpen, you know, roulette all day long. They've been doing it all season long. Uh, you know, Drew Gilbert, it'd be awesome if he kept this thing up. That that might make things interesting about him being a you know a platoon player next year, right? Like that's our those are our peaks. And then to watch Adamus just try to gut it out out there, which I guess credit to him, but also what are you doing, buddy? And that sort of that sort of me first mentality. And again, it might come from what he believes is an altruistic place, but it's a me first mentality. Like, I gotta prove something here. No, you don't. Sit your ass down, take you, get the rest that you need, get your back right. They you're gonna lose whether you're playing or not. In fact, you're helping them lose right now, uh, and all you're doing is hurting your reputation in the process. It's just it's just brutal to watch, and it comes back to the issues that I had when they hired Buster Posey. It comes back to the issues that were there, and we and myself, I'll put first and foremost, willfully overlooked coming into this season, which is this is a sport where everything revolves around the front office. This is a front office sport, and yes, you can have star players, but it's a front office sport because of the amount of roster moves that have to happen on the weekly basis, right? Like it's just how many emails do we get?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I mean, with the daily basis, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

It is a front office sport, and you're gonna see a front office-led team this uh week with the Guardians. You're gonna see, you know, you look at the best teams. They're all they all have these great front offices, and I don't think that's a nette facto thing. And good good organizations have a mission, they have an idea of what it is they're trying to do. And when you fail in that, you have a backup plan. And this team never had a backup plan when they failed in their initial mission of competing because they never really had a shot to compete with, which is so easy to say in retrospect, but there were the signs were all there when we were even looking for them, and we're like, oh, this could go wrong, that could go wrong, this could go wrong, and then they all went wrong. And now they're they're the textbook definition of floundering. There's nothing about this team that feels like it has proper course correction built into it, it's just floundering, and I don't know how that changes, not just for the rest of this season, obviously, but anytime soon. How do you get to the point where you can win? Because this team, as constructed, couldn't win. This team is not going to be able to make enough moves in one offseason, whatever the hell that's gonna look like coming up, to win next year, and they haven't done enough to commit to the bit of winning in 28, 29, and 30. So I'm not even convinced that it which you have to go overboard to in this you know front office-led world. You have to be overboard with your rebuild because you know there will be failure along the way. I I was looking at something today, which was last playoff home runs for teams. And the last playoff home run for the Giants was Darren Ruff in 2021. Uh, that is the only playoff home run they have had since 20. Well, that's not true. They've had a lot of playoff home runs, but like that was the one playoff since 2016. And the last home run was from Darren Ruff. I don't, you know, shouts to Darren Ruff, Forever Giant. Um, the White Sox last, and I'm a Chicago White Sox fan uh through and through, and the White Sox's last playoff home run was also in 2021. In that time, they've done now a complete second rebuild and are in first place in the you know the albeit the AL Central, but like the White Sox when it from 2016 more or less on, they tore it all down and they did a rebuild. They brought it up, they made the playoffs back-to-back years, that all went to hell, they did another rebuild, and now they're here they are, they're going to the playoffs again. Meanwhile, the Giants are just hoping that a team and the spirit of a team that happened 12 years ago magically Casper the ghosts itself into them, Ghostbusters them, and you know, they can they can get by on the power of friendship and starting pitching in the launch angle era. I just uh the whole thing just screams to me of either complete ignorance or just reprehensible hubris, and it might be both combined, which is a dangerous combo.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah, you I want to get back to the the timelines and kind of this weird middle ground that they find themselves in, but I do want to quickly note real quick just this season just feels like the ultimate epitome of Murphy's Law in so many ways that yeah. Because and this is when I say this, Dieter, I I mean no disrespect to the mention. But you look at some of the lineups that they've rolled out in the last five or so days, and it legitimately looks like a spring trading lineup. And and for sure pretty much no scenario can I if you were to give anybody in the front office truth serum and say, could you have envisioned a mid-August lineup with Oslavis Basabe and Christian Coss and Drew Kavanaugh, and you know, Turner Hill made his debut. Uh click aside, I feel kind of bad for Zach Morgan because he got called up for he wasn't a giant for even 20 hours, maybe even 15 before they sent him down. So he might here's how bad that is. I have no idea who you're talking about. Yeah, he was so on so on Sunday, Daniel Susack, he fouled the pitch off of his left knee, which again, Murphy's Law, he's probably gonna be out for the season, which you know, they're going back to Cleveland. You you know, you want to talk about the the that trade overall. Like Susack has been playing really well defensively, and you know, Patrick Bailey, his numbers have been really down. Uh, if you're looking for a common denial nomineer in that Alex Berg, catching coach. I know um, but you know, Zach Morgan was called up to be like the Tuesday, or he got called up Monday, didn't get there until the third inning was option by the next day. Oh, right, okay, he's because they brought back Andrew Kisner. So he might be a phantom ball player, which you know that's just a very fortunate wrinkle and all that. But you know, the I would say the likelihood is he'll play. He will get called up again. I I would hope so, just for his sake, especially in a season like this. But you look at some of the bottom fives in his lineups, and there could have been no scenario under which the Giants would have envisioned this happening. But again, it gets to a point that you're saying that you would mention where it's kind of like the Warriors' two timelines things, where they haven't fully committed to the rebuild. And I've mentioned this point a couple times, I'll mention it again. The rebuild doesn't start with a trade of Devers, Chapman, Adamus, it starts with a trade of Logan Webb because that's your most valuable aspect. And they they're unwilling to do that. So 100%. If you are not willing to trade Logan, you're not willing to trade any of that big three, or at least there's no offers for it, like what can you kind of do in this interim while you look at the likes of Joasuar Gonzalez, Luis Hernandez in San Jose, Jackson Flora might make his debut at some point, and all the kids that you got at the deadline Ramon Marquez, Miguel Mendez, Jacob Resni, and Caden Martinez, it's kind of like this really weird like like you do have Bo Davidson in Parks Harbor and AAA, but they're like the the real wave is double A and below. So I guess the way that I'll lob this over to you is like, how do you kind of make sense of how the Giants are handling this? Where it's like they do want to like not necessarily mail it all in at the major league level, they do want to compete on one end, but the next like great sustained Giants team, if that is gonna happen, it's probably gonna be with a bunch of guys that are that can't legally drink or maybe just startered.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, there's no Macklin Celebrinis here to save your team at 19 years old. Um I I I I mean this with all due respect to the people who are just you know who have committed their careers and and such to to following this baseball team and have carved out a niche for themselves. But the most loser thing that you could possibly do is put on my timeline a bunch of highlights of dudes in single A. I appreciate that these are awesome prospects. I I I can't dude, it's single A baseball. Like that's the thing. That's what kills me. This is where we talk about no timelines. If these guys were in Richmond and they at least had the theoretical possibility of being called up this year, yeah, give me the content. If they're in Sacramento, obviously, I want to know if they're doing really well or not because they're knocking on the door already. They're not even in Eugene. I don't know, is Eugene up or down from San Jose? I thought it was up. It's up. Single, that's their high A. Right. That's so like we can't call it low A anymore. It's just single A. Single A. So I appreciate that they're raking that it's in the same way that I'm I'm concerned about who my three-year-old daughter's fourth grade teacher is gonna be. It doesn't matter right now. It's great. There's a lot of guys who rake in single A. And again, I appreciate their possi prospect pedigree, but we all know that that's not a one-year. For one with major league baseball impact. And probably most of them are going to be pretty good. And maybe some of them are, in fact, stars. And I'm not saying go and trade them or anything. Obviously, this is the best thing you got going for you right now. Um, but it's so far away. It's so far away. It's the equivalent of the Warriors being in the situation they're on now and then being like, don't worry though, we have the first pick in the 2030 draft. And it's like, uh, what the hell am I supposed to do now? You know, like what are we what are we talking about? It's just, and again, as somebody who is a fan of a team that has done multiple rebuilds recently, I just I I I can self-escribe it. It's such loser behavior. And I don't put it on anyone who's trying to put it out there because you can sell two things in this world, in this this crazy business world of sports. You can sell wins or you can sell hope. And the fact that you got to go down to single A to find some hope tells you everything you need to know because they sure are selling selling any wins. So I am um I'm perplexed as to how things get better, unless they want to do a full Farhan thing where they're going to win on the smallest margins for the next couple of years and uh absolutely dominate on the details. But what indication has anyone been given that Buster Posey and Zach Maniason, if he's still with us next year and all that, have the ability to handle that kind of a workload, have the ability to find those edges. Farhan was not very uh not a very good overall director of baseball operations in many things, but damned if that dude couldn't fill out roster spots 20 to 26. He had those things on lock. He was finding dudes left, right, and center. And some of them progressed to be higher up on the order, but he couldn't get that top five, couldn't get that top 10 figured out. And maybe Buster can. I would argue the evidence says no, but maybe Buster can do that. And certainly down the line, you're hoping that he'll do that with the excellent farm system they've built, but it's not a useful farm system. They're literally just sowing the seeds right now, and people are like, good seeds, good seeds. Well, we're not even close to harvest time, right? Like they none of this has grown. The rains haven't come. You know, we're multiple seasons away from even entertaining the possibility of these guys playing at the major league level with the uh you know exclusion of maybe a Jackson Floor or something like that. You know, they're they're closer than not. But like he's not even imminent. He's not even close to imminent. He's what what's he gonna start? He'll start his debut yet. You're right. Like he'll start in probably Arizona Complex League or some nonsense, and then no, he'll be in Richmond next year, and people will be talking about it because they're gonna, well, again, next year, but like let's just pretend everything's normal, and then next year he'll work his way up to double A, and then people will be knocking like, just call him up from double A, just call him up from double A. And you don't want to send him to Sacramento because that he might lose his confidence in the PCL because you know how the PCL goes, and it's like it's just it's the same things that we did a couple years back with the Giants when I was doing a lot more postgames. Um, I'm stunned that those aren't on my docket anymore, given uh given my criticism of this team. And uh it was the same stuff we would hear about uh I'd have a hundred people calling into KMBR about like, oh, Marco Luciano, like we got to get him up. And I'm like, this is this is some real low dirty loser talk right now of we got to get this prospect up, we got to get this prospect up. I mean, Justice, you covered the pirates, you know this world. It's it's loser talk, and it doesn't mean that the people doing it are losers, it's just the manifestation of an organization on the whole being losers, and this is all you got to go with. And people are looking for anything, and the fact that you have to go down to San Jose, which lovely situation they got there. But like the fact that you got to talk about the San Jose Giants and that they might be more interesting than the San Francisco Giants, that's irredeemable as it stands today.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah, and one of the the points that you mentioned about kind of winning on the margins, I think one of the more legitimate criticisms that you can have about this front office is that there have been days, if not weeks at a time where there have been open 40 man spots. And yes, that that would never happen. I I wasn't here for Farhan, but like based off every conversation I've ever had, that that would never that would never be.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Personal affront to Farhan's idea. Yeah, you you you couldn't let me put it to you this way. I have developed, thank you, Farhan. I have developed a nasty habit of being on MLB trade rumors. Like, I only have a couple of things bookmarked on my on my uh on my phone. Like I try not to scroll the internet on my phone, I try to do it on a computer, like the elder millennial I am. And I only I I only have MLB trade rumors and like the literal major league waiver list. Because I just something's gonna happen later today where Farhan's gonna pull one of these dudes and put him on the 40. It was happening all the time. They they were, I mean, it was a hot potato situation. It was exhausting, but at least they were heirs of co-mission. And right now you're talking about a literal air of omission to where they don't have a backup plan. Uh, you can't run a fantasy baseball team like this, much less a major league baseball operation, much less the entirety of a major league baseball operation. And again, those were my big concerns, and not to take a victory lap because Buster is, you know, getting an extremely lucrative on-the-job training program right now. But like, this was my concern. It's like, this guy's never run anything. He's only been a major league player, and you're not just putting him in charge of a major league roster, that in and of itself difficult enough. You're putting him in charge of everybody, 200-something players. And you got to know everyone else's 200-something players. And oh, you got to know all the guys who could be one of those 200 or something players, and you have to have convictions and systems and all this stuff, man. I got two little kids at home. If I don't set stuff out at, you know, 11:30 midnight, so that I'm ready. So when they wake up, I can do it. Like if you don't have a system in place, you're dead. And you're you're swimming, swimming against the stream all day. And they they're leaving 40 spots open on a team that give give give anybody a shot. They're pulling people from the stands at this point, and they can't fill out their 40 man. That's unacceptable.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, there's been multiple there's a couple like once a week, like somebody will get DFA'd from another team, and you're like, the instant I'll see, like it kind of percolates into Giants where it's like they should give this guy a shot. Which it's why not? And it's why not? It's also, you know, even among the guys on the 40 man, like this this happened earlier this week where Spencer Bivens was brought to San Francisco in a taxi squad capacity.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

His he had a locker before the game, after the game, his locker was gone. And I'm thinking, like, this is a guy that was on your team for the entirety of all last season. It's not like this is a lockdown bullpen, like kind of what does he have to do to get extended run at this point? And it's, you know, I think that again, I think that's one of the more legitimate criticism that you can have with this front office is you know, at times when it feels like there should be if it if at times with Farhan it felt like it was like overwhelming, it feels like there are times covering the posy-led operation where it's like some reliever just pitched two and a two-thirds innings yesterday. Why isn't there a fresh arm up?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

It's kind of the opposite thing going into section here. And and that goes to managers, managers too, right? Like, this is why it's important in a front office-led world of baseball that the manager is giving they're a middle manager, that's all they are. But you have to be reporting up so that that person has the best information in which to operate. And you know, say what you will about Bob Melvin, very detailed man, right? Very organized man, very clear communicator. They thought that they needed more juice in that locker room. I don't disagree with them on that. Sorry, clubhouse. But like they they felt like Bob is very good at the administrative tasks of managing, and he listens and there's good, you know, dialogue and all that stuff. Everyone likes Bob, but the team was sleepy because he was sleepy in the dugout, and this team underperformed their exp their belief last year was this team underperformed because they didn't have enough juice. Okay, so then they bring in, you know, Mr. Juice, apparently. Where is the communication from Tony Vitello there to be like, hey, uh, can we make sure that we got somebody here? Because I'm just kind of game planning this one out, and I can't go with X, Y, and Z. So we, you know, we might need to call somebody up from Sacramento. It seems like that conversation happens after they, you know, get on the phone to the bullpen. It's like, did we call up anybody from Sacramento today? Oh no, okay. Well, have fun out there, guy who's pitching. You know, have fun out there, Keaton win. Like you're you're about to eat one for the team. How many times has this bullpen had to send somebody out there just to eat one? Not because they're losing or anything, just because they don't have the right number of bodies available to them. And again, it comes back to systems. And I'm not even going to put all that on Buster. That that's everybody lower in the chain than him not providing the proper information or just not doing their jobs well enough to foresee pretty inevitable circumstances, just as you laid out. Like, guy went to a third. He can't go today. Like there's a big old schedule on who can go and who can't go. Well, okay, well, that schedule, I don't know where they're putting it in Slack or Teamworks or whatever the hell they're using these days. But when you're keeping open 40-man spots and you gotta, you know, you know who pitched in Sacramento, you know who pitched in Richmond, you like you know where all these guys, you know who pitched for other teams and might have gotten DFA'd after the game and are technically on waivers. Like, and they're just going out there and winging it. That that's really that's what this carries a lot of energy towards. They're just going out there and winging it, which is pretty much what you would do if you're completely overwhelmed by the scale of the problem in front of you. You just wing it and you hope you can fake it until you make it. I don't think that's gonna work out. I really don't.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, the Giants have not been making it so far uh this season, uh, in what is, again, a season where they could realistically lose 100 games. I think they have to finish 12 and 26 the remainder of the way, which that's not even winning a third of their games, but you know, with the way it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah, they probably won't, but like going back to the year that they lost 98, I I I was wouldn't say covering it, but I was a columnist at the time. And um it that felt more natural. That felt like the the clear end of something that they had been holding on to very tightly for a long time, right? And it was just the inevitable collapse of it all, and there was nonsense and stuff off the field, all that, as all bad teams have. Um but that didn't going into the season, no one expected it, but when it started to happen, I think there was almost it wasn't a sigh of relief, but there was a there was a conciliatory nature to it. It was just like, yeah, well, it was always gonna happen. This was going down. This was not ever part of it, right? Like it the whole point of this year, and again, I I hate to uh harbor the point, but like belabor the point. But the whole point of this year was that mediocrity doesn't do it anymore. Like the whole idea of this season was we're not going 81 and 81 again. And they didn't. Bless them they didn't. They're not going 81 and 81, they didn't come close. And but when you are on the other side of that, and you thought coming into the season that it wasn't gonna be uh uh 81 and 81, it was gonna be 85, or it was gonna be 90, and that you were in this thing, and now you're you're knocking on the door of a Hundo that's a foundational issue. And and kind of the main point of the column that I I tried to make, and and rarely did these ever come across clearly, is if this was any other situation, either the manager or the GM would be fired. Like if it was any other situation, because clearly expectations versus reality, the reality is so far away from the expectations. This is this is not a functional situation, and yet they're both coming back, and they're both gonna get another run at this thing. And I can't even blame them for it, but uh again, it just highlights how deep of the waters they're swimming in with a doggy paddle right now. It just doesn't feel like this is something they're getting out of anytime soon, much in the same way that in in 2018, it's like, well, this is gonna suck for a couple of years, but they did big fundamental changes afterwards in the goal of well, they were amid big fundamental changes. Uh, so at least you could, you know, theoretically sell the hope. You're two years into to Posey's tenure, you're one year into Vitello, you're no better off than you were under Farhan. Not even close. In fact, you're in much worse situations, and you can talk you can tell me all about their great farm system. I can appreciate it. How's that helping them today? How's that helping them tomorrow? It might help them in 2028. I think some things are gonna have changed in baseball by 2028. I'm not sure I want to, you know, play the long game in the stock market on the Giants based on their top five farm system as things stand, because all of those guys, all of that top five farm system are guys who aren't even in Eugene yet, right? Like this is being held up by the most by by teenagers. That's great. Until it isn't, or it is, I don't know, but that's a long ways away, and that's a lot of pain between now and then. And at least if you were to have sold me, like this is gonna suck for a while. Like, stick with us. Then I can engage on that front. But to sell us the false bill of goods as clearly as they did this year, and then be like, oh, don't worry though, all you have to do is wait three, four years. I that that's that's as bad of a situation as you can have in baseball.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

And it does bring up a larger question is that even you know, if a lot of these prospects do pan out, it kind of then becomes the question of, you know, if these are your foundational talents, then you kind of do have to win at the margins. Then, you know, is there the preparation necessarily or has the fund has the foundation been put in place to where you can start winning at the margins, as opposed to, as we mentioned, like having something as simple as open 40-man spots, which that's a let's get to the right.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

I'm sure that I'm sure they have their reasons, but it they don't seem to be very good reasons, and we don't need to belabor that point. But like again, I so much of this front office, too, despite having so many carryovers from the Farhan's ID regime, uh I think the ethos is like we're gonna do the opposite of Farhan. And it's like that's that was never the answer. Like Farhan's failures were at the high level, but you have to do all the other little things that Farhan was doing and then add to it. And they're just like, let's just do the opposite, we're only gonna do the big things and not you know sweat the small stuff, but the small stuff is the only thing that's gonna pull them out of this hole, and they're never gonna get the big things done if they're in a hole this deep right now. So yeah, I'm I'm um let me just say I'm not bullish, not bullish.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

So speaking if we're talking about the small stuff, we do have about 38 games remaining. And if the the macro of the wins and the losses, uh again, as you mentioned, they don't have they're not going to be able to net a top 10 draft pick. It's just kind of playing for pride at this point, playing for not losing 100 games. So if we're gonna focus on the small stuff, sure. We're about 40 minutes in. We've been uh they've gotten they've gotten their their licks from you over the course of the last 40 minutes. Let's let's go a little let's go a little rose tinted glasses here because you did mention that Tugbo's Hayes, he's gonna be on the active roster. Matt Wilkinson, who was part of the Patrick Bailey trade, uh, he will be called up. I'm not sure what capacity he's gonna pitch in, presumably as a starter. Um, we have seen a couple guys, not a couple, a lot of rookies get some run, including one Bryce Eldridge, uh, over the last couple of weeks. I know you got the Warriors, I know you got the Niners, and I know you got the Valkyries, I know you got the Sharks, but whenever you do decide to tune into Giants baseball, who are the one or two guys the rest of the way that you're gonna watch with legitimate intrigue and think, hmm, like that this guy could potentially be part of a hypothetical competitive Giants team in 2027-2028?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

I mean, Kavanaugh, 24, highly ranked prospect. Interested to see what happens there. Uh uh obviously Eldridge, that goes without saying. Um I don't know if I buy Basabe. Um I don't know if I buy Turner Hill. I don't think I buy Barracotto. I want to see more Jonah Cox. I I what's he doing here if we ain't playing him? Um Blade Tidwell, I I'll entertain the possibilities, right? Like uh it could be another Wizen Hunt situation where what was he, third, fourth ranked prospect in the organization, and then the next year he's not even top 25 in the org, just to show how dramatic the turnaround has been at the at least as uh external evaluators look at the system, but like fell off. Uh I like Tidwell. I think Tidwell has a chance to be a pretty good three, four, or five for a team down the line. Um so I I'm interested in watching Tidwell's things. I'm interested to see what they do with Tugboat. I imagine it has something to do with Adrian Hauser. I think that they'll probably like piggyback in or opener or something like that. Um, you know, Landon Roop had a it might not have been his last start. I guess he starts tonight. So yeah, it would have been his last start. I thought he was it was a bad start, but it was gutsy. And maybe that's what I'm looking for more than anything else. I want to find some dudes with some guts. Like we know Logan Webb is the bulldog. Like we know, like we know he's got guts. That has not emanated to everybody else on the team. I want to see some scrap. I want to see some fight. And honestly, the thing that I look for most is when the hell are we gonna see this Tony Vitello we were promised? When are we gonna find this guy that I would tune in at night and watch SEC network and be like, this vi this Vitello dude, this Vitello dude's off the chain. Like he's got it. Um, I understand the differentiation between college and major league baseball is vast. Uh, and I do appreciate to a degree that he's coming into a new environment where he had no cachet and he's going to walk on eggshells and treat guys with kids gloves and um that he can't control people at this level, full-grown adult men who have made it to the show, and some guys who are making hundreds of millions of dollars, like he can't control them the way that he can, you know, an 18-year-old or a 22-year-old in college who's making at the absolute most six figures because of a cool NIL deal with a local car dealership. Like, you can't control him that way. But he needs to go out swinging. And right now, there's no question he's out. Like, not at the end of this year, but he enters next season on the hot seat without a question. And if I saw Ron Washington's like, I'm coming back, it's like, yeah, I would come back too, because about halfway through next season, if things keep going this way, you're the manager, like you're back in, baby. You made it. And uh I I I want to I want to see him in his full plumage. I want to see the real Tony Vitello because I don't think we've gotten anything close to that this year. And I don't see any downside at all in him letting his freak flag fly a little bit, if that's indeed what he wants to do, and that is indeed his personality. Um go down swinging. And if somebody doesn't like it, who the hell cares? This baseball team sucks, but at least you might get some scrap and some fight out of this baseball team if your manager starts coming in and and you know, every every press conference, I mean, he's got a joke, you know, he mansplains the basics of the game, and then he goes, you know, dopey McDoperson lamenting the state of his baseball team. And it's like, dude, you know, he called him junior college the other day. It's like I wonder whose fault that could be. And legitimately, any other team in baseball, if you put out the kind of fundamental performances that the Giants have put out all year long, and especially as of late, when you have lesser players, you'd be like, this manager's bad. It's a bad manager. You'd blame the manager, right or wrong, you'd blame the manager. I think plenty of people are, but not enough to the point where you know it's clearly a bad idea and we got to get off of this after a year. Um, yeah, I I I I really, you know, as much as we are now in the micro of everything, on Tony Vitello, I want the macro. On Tony Vitello, I want the big picture. I want to see whatever it is he thinks he is as a leader to shine through and for this team to treat to you know some level of respect, to treat these final games like they're the playoffs and just turn it, get give this team some identity other than loser. Because right now that's all it is, and that goes to Vitello, who just you know, the hang dog is is is out of control. Everybody on this team just emanates a negative energy. And uh, as someone who you know pedals off of negative energy, usually I can recognize it. And uh yeah, just they're very dopey, very dopey, everyone's sad, and I get it, it's no fun losing, but it's over now. The season's over, so let's flip the switch and do something. And I thought that the maybe the highlight of this season for the Giants was when they got into a bunch of fights with the Reds in Cincinnati. Like, I'm not kidding. It's about five years ago. It was the only time that I felt like this team had an identity where I'm like, oh yeah, they're wearing the black hats now. Let's do this thing. Like the Dodgers, everyone hates them. That's fine. But like you want to be annoying and pesky and just have something to you. I mean, I I covered the Niners. Upton Stout, the nickelback, he is not big. He should not be playing professional football. But you know what he is? He's a pissant. He doesn't care, and he's out there and he's looking to start fights. You gotta have some of that. If you're not very good, call it in security manifest, but like start doing something. And this whole team is just trying to play out the string. I don't know how that sets a tone for whenever next season happens that's in any way good because clearly they don't have the veteran leadership to change anything that's happening with this team. You know, oh Logan Webb this and that. Okay, well, Logan we'll leave the Logan Webb out of it. Willie Adamas grab ass and on second base, forcing himself to play. Devers, just Mr. Moody. Chapman, I think Chapman's a good guy, and I think he is a good leader, but he's not a natural personality to like get behind me, we're all going, boys. He's a lead by example guy. Um maybe Eldridge is that guy. He seems to want to be that guy. He's too young to be that guy because he doesn't have the cachet yet, and he's got to work through a lot of his own stuff to stay up at this level. It's on the manager. If it's gonna be a team that has to scrap, fight, and claw, it needs to start with the manager. And I I don't see any of it in in in I don't see any of it in Vitello right now. And that's the exact thing that we were sold. It was I was told the reason that he was brought in. Where is it? Because frankly, he's just Bob Melvin with a nicer beard.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

It is a nice beard. I will say it is.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

He's very well groomed.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Well, Dieter, I know you want Tony V to say what he means and me what he says, but I know we never have to worry about that with you fine serious. Whether it's on the airwaves, whether it's in the fine print, Dieter, I know we work at the same publication, but where can we find your work?

SPEAKER_01 46:16

San Jose Mercury News East Bay Times, Marin Daily Journal. I'm syndicated, I find out on my Google News alerts in like 800 places, uh, which does not properly reflect on my paycheck, I will note. Uh, anywhere you can find justice, you can find me, uh, which also sounds like a billboard I saw on 880 going down to niners the other day.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

You heard the man himself, Justice El Santos, theatergarten boss flash considerations podcast. We will catch you in the next one.