The Red-Popsicle Principal, Resilience and Capability - with Jolly Corley - Intentionally Intentional Leaders

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/camphacker/iil-jolly-c

Lessons in Capability and Safety: Jolly Corley on Leading with Intent

In this episode of Intentionally Intentional Leaders, Jolly Corley, leadership coach and Director of Camp Robindel For Girls, joins the show to discuss the deep-seated why behind camp leadership. From her early days as an 18-year-old counselor to her professional background in theater, Jolly explores how childhood experiences and even vivid dreams have shaped her approach to developing young leaders.

Jolly challenges camp directors to look beyond simple activities and embrace the moments that build true resilience. She dives into the necessity of treating staff and campers as capable individuals, moving away from the fragility of modern parenting and toward a model of honest, collaborative growth.

Key Takeaways include:

• The Cabin as a High Risk Zone: While waterfronts and ropes courses have clear safety structures like life jackets and harnesses, the cabin is where the highest emotional risk lives. Jolly highlights how we rely on the training and intuition of young staff to manage the most precious thing in a parent's life, which is their child’s emotional and physical well being.
• The Capable Child: Reflecting on her own mother’s refusal to talk down to her, Jolly explains that leadership is about making others feel capable. She emphasizes that childhood is simply the process of becoming an adult and camp is the perfect laboratory for practicing that independence.
• Mission vs. Ego: Jolly reveals that the hardest leadership decisions are often between mission and ego rather than money. She discusses the hubris of a director thinking they can fix every staff member and the importance of recognizing when a specific camp environment just is not the right fit for someone.
• The Red Popsicle Resilience: True partnership with parents requires transparency about struggle. Jolly argues that resilience is not built by finding the last red popsicle in the freezer. Instead, it is built by sitting with a child in the disappointment of not getting one, which teaches them that they can experience hard feelings and still function.
• The Non Negotiable of Safety: When balancing support and accountability, Jolly draws a firm line at physical safety. While emotional and mental growth requires nuance and flow, physical safety rules must remain absolute to protect the community.

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Your Hosts

• Travis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro
• Jolly Corley, Leadership Development Coach and Director - Jolly Corley LLC & Camp Robindel For Girls

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Thanks to our sponsor!

Whereabouts

Your mission is campers. Ours is making their experience coordinated and connected.

Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps Parents, Admin, and Staff in sync in real time — so every camper’s day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out whereaboutsapp.io/

Our free Resilient Camp Blueprint diagnostic is available at: https://camp.mba/travis

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

This is Camp Hacker. Come find our show notes and our blog for camp directors and leaders at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Your mission is campers. Whereabouts mission is making their experience coordinated and connected. Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps parents, admin, and staff in sync in real time. So every camper's day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out today at whereaboutsapp.io.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

What if one meaningful insight or great question could shift how you lead camp this summer? Welcome to Intentionally Intentional Leaders, a Go Camp Pro podcast, brought to you by the Resilience Blueprint Diagnostic, a free tool to help you reclaim time, reignite your purpose, and build your resilience. You can take it at camp.mba slash Travis. Each episode of this podcast, our guest or I roll a 20-sided die to spark reflection through three lenses memories, insights, and beliefs. My name is Travis Allison. I help camp directors reclaim their staff time, build leadership and business resilience, and reignite their purpose at camp. Today's guest is Jolly Corley, who's the director at Camp Robindale. Jolly, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Thank you for having me. That's an exciting title of a podcast, too. So I'm excited about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Well, credit where credits do, that is a camp code phrase from Beth and Gabs, of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

That's cool. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah. So what we're going to do is go through these three sections, and I'll roll. And for people watching on YouTube, you can see me roll. I may forget to come back to focus on Jolly, but you'll be able to see her face and the die. And then we'll go through ask questions in these three different sections. And Jolly, you there's two rules for this. So one, you get a skip. So if question you don't like it, you just say skip it and we move on. And you get one flip. So the flip is that I answer first, but then you answer it. Any questions about the format?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

No, I'm really excited. A skip and a flip. There's no call a friend, though. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

There is no call of friend. That's very true. Nope. Just skip and flip. Okay. All right. So Jelly's first rule, the first section is memories.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Big money? That's not what I'm doing, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

19 out of 20. Well done. Okay. So for our first question. What's a moment when a stranger made you feel loved?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Oh, this is a cool question. When is a moment a stranger made me feel loved? Okay. I actually just had this. I was actually just talking to you a little bit about this. So I was recently in Puerto Rico. And the driver who was helping me get to point A to B, super friendly, amazing, just started this conversation with me. First about, I know everybody's gonna laugh about Bad Bunny, making sure I knew who Bad Bunny was. Luckily, I have two teenagers, so I knew who Bad Bunny was.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

But he and the way that he spoke with me and the way he shared his love of where he's from and the people that surround him. And he shared it with me in such an open, authentic, the good, the bad, that everything that he loves about where he lived and who the people were. I just felt like he brought me into it. Instead of me being other, he was like inviting me in. It wasn't like, oh, well, you know, let me tell you about Bad Bunny and how great we are and how and they are. I mean, Bad Bunny is like the most, I mean, like most famous entertainer in in the world. And but the way that he did it and the way he had that conversation with me was inviting me into it rather than us and and you know, him and me. Like is that the right grammar? I don't even know if that's correct grammar, but I just I I felt really excited. Like he he literally stopped the car and said, You have to take your picture here because this is where God let me. And he took the picture. I mean, I wouldn't have known to stop there, right? And so he was like, You want to take your picture? He was like telling me what I wanted to love too. And by doing that, I felt very loved, I felt very welcomed. I mean, all they have to do is take me from point A to point B, but he made me feel like part of this whole community that he was bringing me from point A to B.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

That just happened.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

And and very camp dry camp directory, he included your kids in the experience. Like your kids really want you to have a picture taken.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yeah, oh, can I tell you another little thing? Is that I actually ended up, he gave me a card so I could call him again. Like, because I I had just, you know, like, hey, do you can you take me hilda a ride? And he said, Here's my number. You could call me. Because I had said I'm only here for a minute, I'm like doing this meeting really quickly. And he said, You can call me and I can come pick you up. And when I called him back, he brought me Bad Bunny, two Bad Bunny souvenirs for my kids. Like, how sweet is that?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

That is very sweet.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

He was like, These are really I only have a few of these, but I really thought maybe your kids would like them. And I was like, Are you sure? He's like, Absolutely. And he just said they were just little, but it was just yeah, I felt very loved.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

That's great. That's brilliant. Okay, very good start. I love this. I'm excited for more. Okay, next question number nine. So, question number nine is what particular place at your camp taught you the most about risk and responsibility?

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Risk and responsibility. I would think uh in the cabin. Like when you're living, so my very first summer at 18 years old, and this is carried through. Oh no, I didn't I it didn't only happen at 18, but it was like the first time at 18 when I I had nine-year-olds, there were 14 of them with there were four counselors, and you just think like when I thought about going to camp. Well, first of all, I'm always really honest. When I first thought about going to camp, it was the parent trap. And then once I got there and I realized, oh, like we're kind of responsible for a lot of things, you know. And I think at 18, I know at 18, I was very, like, very confident, thought I could do anything. Like anytime someone talks about generation now, like, oh, they they want these titles. I could I could have run the camp at 18, that's in my opinion. Yeah, whether or not I really could, but in my opinion, right? Once I got there, and you are responsible. And when I say you, I was responsible for all of these girls, you know, waking up, getting their meals, their friendships, their emotional, physical. It was way different for a whole summer. Way different than when I would babysit for someone's two kids, three kids, maybe they'd come home after I put them to bed. I would spend three hours just playing with them. The risk and responsibility of like, and it's carried through. It's like one of the things that I I talk to the to my staff about is that you could go get an internship at that law or in finance, and losing someone's like case in law, losing all their money, that's bad.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Like, that's not great.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

But when you're responsible for literally the most important thing in their life, that you can't like they can make more money, they can figure out you know, the case, they can retry the case, whatever, whatever you're in. That child has to be the same. Our hope is even better when we return them emotionally, physically, mentally. And that responsibility and the fact that camps everywhere put that responsibility on our 18, 19, and 20 year olds. I'm just like, that's it, right? I think you know, I think a lot of people think of waterfront and ropes courses, and that that is high risk. But I think in those areas, we have such clear, yep, like safety structures, safety structures. Then it's it's you know, when you're at you know, at the waterfront, this is exactly what we do. And you have all these tools that inflatable everything. We have all the tools, the ropes, we have the harnesses, we have all the tools. In the cabin, we have these 18 to 20 plus year old kids, and and we're relying on their experience and our training uh that is heard in different, it's not, you know, it's not so specific. Because when one child is crying or upset, we can't just say, Oh, here's how we do it, right? It's that child has a different way, and so there's just so much nuance. And for me, that in the cabin, and and I think you know, if you're in a day camp or anywhere, it's in that space where the kids are building community, is that space.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Okay, next question 20. Who was an adult that didn't talk down to you as a kid? And how did that make you feel?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah, that that would be my mom. My mom did not talk down to any of us. She very much had honest conversations with us. She yeah, that that I without even hesitation, my mom growing up uh was always, I think probably developmental. I didn't know it at the time, you know, when you're seven years old, you're not like, oh, my mom's being developmentally appropriate at what she's sharing right now. But she never sugarcoated things. She I think what it did because she was honest and she took never talked down to us, is that it made me feel capable. And I was a really shy kid. I know that's hard to believe now. Like my mom called me a shrinking violet. Like that's how, like, so I was not as abusive and chatty as I am now, Travis, as that might be hard to believe. But it made me, it's interesting, and I think it's one of the things we struggle with as a society and parenting now, is that because she didn't talk down to me and because she was truthful to the point that it needed to be, you know, for a seven-year-old versus a 15-year-old. I mean, by the time I was 15, she was very honest, right? She would be very forthcoming, probably even 14, 15, with what was happening in our family, what might be happening financially, like what we could afford or not afford, you know, what we what she expected of us. And that was starting very really young. And I think because she did that, I saw myself as capable, right? I saw myself as able to handle that. Like my mom wouldn't have told me or said something to me if she didn't think I couldn't handle that information or or told me to do, you know, if she asked me, just did I love everything she didn't talk down to me? You know, like, did I love everything she talked to me about or asked me? No, right? I was I was a really good eye roller as a teenager and a door door slammer, really good at that. But she just never talks down. I feel like even my own kids, like when I see her interact with them, she like as little, I mean, now they're older, but when they were little, she was having conversations with them rather than oh, let me do that for you, or you can, you know, that talking down. Because I don't think we think of that as talking down. I think we think of it once we get older and people are talking down to us. I don't know that we think about the fact that we can talk down to three, four, five, six-year-olds without even thinking about it. Um, because we're we're using that kind of like it's different than a baby. A baby, I feel like you can make all sorts of fun no noises, but once they're able to communicate, and it doesn't keep it. Yes, I think once we do that, once children can do that, then yeah, having those, she just never did. I really thank you for that question. Because I don't think I would have thought about that with my mother. That was for sure. She came to mind right away.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

That's wonderful. How do you how do you get that sort of thing across to your staff?

SPEAKER_03 11:34

You know, I try not to talk down to them. I try to we actually I do a lot of storytelling. I know that's hard to believe too, Travis, as you know me. I do a lot of storytelling, so I try to show stories and have them also reflect. So we do storytelling where I might share stories about examples of people who have spoken down, either to me or of counselors and like the outcome of that, like what's what's happened. And it's not even necessarily talking down, we just talk about communicating in different ways. But the other thing I think is super important is reflecting, which is what you're doing here. You're asking them to reflect and you're asking me to reflect. And it's just such a great practice that that's one of the ways that we ask them to do it. Like, you know, thinking about what it is they wanted when they were 10. Like, and we do it. I mean, I think if you just ask them, what did you want when you were 10? It's like, but specific, like to remember for your birthday, right? What kind of party did you have? Did you want to have? Did you not get to have? What did you want to be when you grew up? Like at that age, like right to get yourself into that and to talk the same thing. Like, who was it in your life that really you loved uh being around as an adult? And who made you kind of like, oh, I have to go to, you know, whatever, and you know, so and so's and why? Like, why was it? And I think a lot of times, you know, that it might be like, you know, she pinched my cheeks and she, I mean, she didn't, or she ignored me completely, or he, whatever. But that reflection piece, that's really what we do a lot with staff, is a lot of reflection so they can get themselves back into that mind. I'm always surprised at how adults forget pretty easily what it's like. And I think that's just a practice of reflection. And and when we can reflect and remember what it was like to be 18 as a staff member, we can actually help them to be better staff because we remember it. If we remember what it's like to be 10 or 11 or 5, or if we can just, and it's not like remembering every detail, but I think we can remember feeling. I think there's I don't remember who said it. Someone will tell you in the comments, but that idea, you may not re remember what I did for you, but you'll remember how I made it. Am I Angelo? Was that her?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I don't know. Somebody'll tell you in the comments who it was.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

But I think when we ask people to reflect, not on the specifics, but how it made you feel. So we can try to say what you know, what did I want to be? The other one we'll ask sometimes is like, can you have how would your grandmother or someone who really cared a lot about you're describe you when you were 10? So not even like what did I think of myself as 10, but how could someone else, like a teacher or someone else, describe? And that's always a fun question for our staff to consider when they're thinking about how to kind of get themselves into that, not talking down to really helping kids know they're capable. And camp's the perfect place for them to feel capable.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah. Well, and I was just gonna say that it's interesting because the feeling capable, making kids feel capable or young adults feel feel capable, is not something how we often describe this job, but it's so much a part of the heart of this job. Is you are capable of staying away from your parents overnight. You're capable of you know, climbing this thing and yeah, getting away from your phone. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But we we I don't think we use that word enough with our staff to remind them that that's that's the effect that they have on we use that word fragility that we've we've we've moved to creating this very fragile generation without intending to.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Like, no one's like, oh, let's make a really fragile generation that doesn't think they're capable and and they needs us. It's not, it's it's out of the goodness of our heart of like, oh, I don't want my kid to feel that way. I don't want them to have to go through that. And I think often when I talk to parents, they I I just say to them, I think we forgot that childhood is actually the process of becoming an adult. There's no magic moment that all of a sudden you turn 18 or 21 and 25 and you become an adult. And all those things you know how to deal with, unless we allow children to do that and then young adults as our staff to have those hard moments, but to be there with them, right? To be there and gather tools to help them and say, hey, I here's a couple tools that maybe could work in this situation. And so it's not just like watching them as they're flailing, but it's you know, circling back, you know, to the the idea that the waterfront has all those tools. It's it's it's saying we do have tools, they're just different when we're working with each other in this capacity because they don't all work the same way as like an inner tube works. We know an inner tube floats, but it can help someone. But these other things we might need to try different tools to see what's gonna help.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

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SPEAKER_01 17:22

Excellent. I'm gonna move us on to insights. Don't forget you have a skip and a flip whenever you like when you whenever you like. Roll. 15 in insights. When do you feel most connected to the people you've lost?

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Oh, this is so interesting. I when I listen to music.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 17:44

When I listen to music and combined with something that maybe happened, let me back up. Okay, actually, music is what I do to kind of connect. What usually happens in this space of is something has happened. So like when I see a cardinal, I I think of my grandmother. She loved cardinals, right? And then what will happen is I will, you know, put music on that reminds me of her. Right. So I should say the music thing like connects me even closer. So something has happened that makes me think of them. So my grandfather's birthday just and I still have all, even people who pass, I still have their birthdays. So it pops up and it says grandfather fosters, you know, birthday, and I have a year in there, and I like wow, he'd be 120, whatever, 26 years old or whatever you would be. And and then, you know, then I I music is very often then the way I connect because you know, even if they I didn't think they, I don't even know if they ever even heard the song. The song could be new, but I'll have I'll have known like that song when I heard it reminded me of them. So when that thing happens that reminds me, whether it's seeing a cardinal or seeing their birthday pop up, uh then I almost always, if I'm in the place where I can just pop on a song that reminds that reminds you of them.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

What is the song that reminds you of your grandmother?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Oh, she love, love, love Cole Porter. So any Whole Porter song, I just throw that on. And in fact, I have her or she gave me this complete collection of cold porter on record. Final. Yeah, beautiful with like all the all the details of his life and his quotes, and I don't have a player for it, but I have I have the beautiful set. It's just I can see it. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Very cool. Question number seven on my list of insights. What's a lesson you've had to learn over and over again?

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Oh, flip. 100% flip.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Okay. A lesson I've had to learn over and over again. Oh shoot, there's a word for this. Oh, that's too bad. I really wish I'd come up with the word. Anyway, the the the lesson I have to learn over and over again is that people have an experience or are having an experience that doesn't involve me. Like their whole their life doesn't like the stuff, they have their own stuff going on. And and that sonder, the word is sonder, the ability to understand that it's they have another another life experience than you do. That feeling of empathy is called saunder. And yeah, that's a a thing that I've had to remind myself of at different times. It's helped me be more patient with people for sure. And even just trying out a different if their actions can mean a few things, like trying out some of the other things. So we used to have a next door neighbor, and I I mean I grew up in a village, so I'm just used to neighbors and you know talking to everybody and seeing everybody on the weed on the street. And this guy lived right next door, like their fence was backed onto our our driveway, and I, you know, would say hi or whatever, and he'd just be walking around and he'd never ever make an effort and barely ever respond. Like sometimes it would become a game to me to get him to respond, like not let him not let him get away. But you know, I just my my gut instinct and all that was like he's just so stuck up. And then I thought, what if he's shy? And what if there's this guy who just moved in next door who's super gregarious and is in his space, he's you know, he's in his backyard doing something quiet on his back deck, and then the the neighbor's like coming over, like, hey man, how's it going? And that I think that helped me reframe how I thought of it. In the end, I was right, he was a bit of an idiot, but but I had a lot more patience for him up until the moment that he left his wife and kids and and went away. But anyway, so it it it felt better for me and gave me a little bit more perspective on on him. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

I think it's such a good practice, like in life, just to be able to because otherwise everything's being done to you, right? Like in the guy who cuts you off, and instead of being like I don't know. It's not like you woke up. I say this to my team all the time. It's like like kids don't wake up and be like, I'm gonna be the bratdiest kid in the book today, right? It's not like the guy woke up and I'm like, I'm gonna cut off the gray, you know, Toyota today. It's just I I like that. That's a really good one.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

No, that's good. How about for you? What's the lesson that you've had to learn over?

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Okay, so I have a ridiculous one that I know my team, especially Corey, would say it would be that I have to learn over and over that they have not invented a way to, and you're probably another term of this, for you to get from point A to point B. Like, how do they do it in like Star Trek or in like teleport? Yeah, yes, they have not figured that out. So that I have to, I have to do remember in my calendar that if I actually have to be someplace else, that I have to put that in. That's what I know they would all say. She has to learn that over and over and over. That's those are the things I mean, it's ridiculous. I just need to like to know that. But in other ways of things I have to learn over and over. And this one, I'm getting better. And I think if you keep practicing it, right? Those things you have to learn over and over, and you're just you acknowledge it, like I have to practice, then you get better at it. And this, I definitely got better, but it used to be really difficult. As you know, Jolly is very jolly. And I I really am a relatively happy person. Like I feel happy. I don't, I don't get sad very often. You know, sad movie, a sad salt. Like, it's not that I can't get sad. It's not that. I just that people could describe it as Pollyanish. They could, you know, she always sees the silver lining, you know, it could get exhausting. If you ask my husband, Ada's like, it can get exhausting. And and that's a lesson I had to learn over and over that like it's not like people choose not to be happy, right? And I think I thought that, like, why not just be happy? Like, why would you choose to be sad about that right now? Right. And I totally I had to practice that and I'm much better now, much better. But that is the skill that I I continuously have to remind myself because sometimes when someone's really struggling with something, I want to be like, you know, roll that off your shoulders, right? Like, and and I just realized that I think it's an interesting study of like nurture and nature, right? Like something within me has made that easier, and then I practiced it over and over to kind of let things like roll up. But that is not true for everyone, and you have to, I think it comes down to that empathy. What you were talking about is just being empathetic to like once again, it's not like they were like, Yeah, I can't wait to wake up and feel like crap today. Like, yeah, it's if they could just shake it off, they would just shake it off, right? And just practicing and reminding myself that I have to not that that's not the case for everyone. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, totally does. Totally does. Thank you. Roll for third insight question. 16. Where I'm looking at the camp. I'm trying to find the number. Apologies. What decision rules guide you when mission and money pull in different directions at camp?

SPEAKER_03 25:04

This is a really good question. My business partners may not love it so much, but they already know this about me, so I'm not filling any secrets. I am not motivated particularly by money.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

I am really motivated by I'm not saying that I don't want to have make money, and it's nice to have like uh I don't want anyone to think that. Like, I I'm not I, you know, as I'm not like, oh, I'm gonna become a monk and like give away all my possessions. I'm not that, I'm not that. But when I have something that's between those two, it is it's not the mission for me, is the most important because I just feel like when you do that, and this may be naive, and we'll see if I have to come back on your show and say, so I've made a decision that was all about mission and it totally just financially ruined us. I have had to make some really difficult decisions that were both emotionally difficult, right? But they when I looked at the mission and really like focused on that, there was a clear answer, but it still was not, but it wasn't really about the money part would not have been. I'm not I'm not like it is not a secret amongst those who work with me at camp where they might be like, We sometimes wish she would be a little bit more focused on money every once in a while. That for me is not a hard mission, is like it really directs everything that we that we we do and that I do. Oh, yeah, I I really not really the the money part of it again, much much to like some people's chagrin of like that is 100%.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Right. Beth coined the phrase people before programs, and that came up a lot for us. And yeah, it often it wasn't necessarily money, it wasn't often used in money situations, but it was sometimes. But it was kind of like what do our people need versus what do we have scheduled? But I think there's definitely times that that was a a way for us to make a decision about how we'd handle things.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

I I think for me you can fall down a massive hole if money is what you're thinking about all the time. And the weight of that becomes exhausting, right? That that just I think it can become really exhausting because I would imagine there's a lot of times when the money thing is gonna go up against the mission, right? Like if if you know, and how we put that into action. Yeah, I think that's a lot of weight. And again, I I'm a little I'm being a little alter altruistic, right? Like to say money doesn't, like it's just not the mo it's not the main motivator. Obviously, you have to consider money, you know. Yeah, like here's an example. I I never win this one, but I would just not raise our tuition ever. Yeah, I mean, that's not really mission and whatever, but for me, I'm like, gosh, it's it's you know, do we have to keep raising it with the you know, and people are like inflation, that's not really mission, but that's how like I think about it. Like, gosh, people are paying a lot. Like, let's like maybe we give them a break. That's not necessarily in our mission, like give people a break about tuition, right? But being empathetic and and thoughtful, that's part of our mission and fostering, you know, this community. Again, no place in there is like fostering, you know, this community without raising for inflation.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Like, so but that's how like sometimes I'm like that's how deep it goes.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Yeah, it's not that part's not great. It's a good thing that I have people surrounding me so that we can actually have a camp. So I that was like a that was a tricky one, but it's not hard for me like to be like that is we have to stick to this. And what's more, what's more challenging, I would say, is when mission comes up against emotion, right? Like emotions of like how we've always done something, and there's this long tradition, or that maybe we have to make decisions, you know, about a program or people that it's just not working for, right? But when we use our mission to say, like, it's the mission to keep someone that in this situation that it's not working for, even though you adore them and you love them. And my hubris says, I can get them through camp. They can learn a lot from camp. I can keep working with them. And it's like, okay, how long do you keep forcing someone to try to work through your hubris of like I can get you to where you need to be, right? That actually is a more challenging, it's my ego, right? Than the money. Like, I would say my ego is more of a problem for my mission because I want everyone to be able to have this opportunity and to live that mission and put their values into action. And and and so my hubris and ego can get, you know, that's where I have to check myself. I have to say, like, you know what? Like, you've tried for two summers to help this kid or this staff member. And camp probably is a good place, it's just not your camp. And that for me, like even saying it to you, like my heart just like went really like but we run the best camp. Like it's a ridiculous thing, but you have to believe you run the best camp, right? To do that, you have you do have to believe, but I it's harder when I'm like, but it's not the best camp for everyone, right? And that that for me is probably a harder where I have to really look at that mission and say, it's not about you, it's about them and this mission. That's a harder one than the money part.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

That totally makes sense and makes sense of how I see you too, Jelly. I'm gonna move us on to beliefs. Number eight. Have you ever had a premonition about something that came true?

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Oh my gosh, yes, twice. And I keep thinking that I need to like it's in my dreams, it's when I dream.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

That is crazy that you asked this question because I am like always thinking, like, I should write my dreams down. I think I have ESP. No, I don't know. Yes, okay. So I had this dream, my freshman year in college, my roommate and I, Julie, had this totally illegal like platform loft bed. Totally illegal. I mean, we were like, I don't know if you can see that. We were like that close, like you couldn't sit up in bed, like it was so illegal. This platform bed. So then, of course, the light is like right there if someone turned on the overhead light.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, fuck you right in the eye.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

Yeah, no, it was bad. Anyway, so we we had this. There was a stairs that went up, and we had our two beds, you know, side by side with like a space in the middle to come down the stairs. It was great for down below because you could stand up, you didn't have to like duck. Yeah, I was asleep, like dead asleep, and Julie came home really late and didn't realize I was sleeping or get up in the and she turned on the light, and I woke up with this start because I had been dreaming. Yeah, that happens when like the phone rings, and like does that happen to anybody now that the phones don't really ring? I don't know if that happens, but it used to be like you would be dreaming about a phone ringing, yes, and then the phone would be ringing. Well, in this, I was dreamy, I was in this kind of cream white, like kind of like an old-fashioned, like Laura Ingalls pajamas. Sure, yeah, that was up, it was all black around me. Yeah, and I could I I felt this fear, this intense fear, like I was so upset, and I was getting ready to like scream. Like I was, I knew I was gonna scream in my dream. Like I was gonna scream and I had tears, and then the lights came on in the dream, yeah, and then the lights came on. And I tell my friend Julie, I'm like, you're never gonna leave. Like, and I always think that's part of the reason I remembered this dream because I told you so vividly. Yeah, yes, and I'm like, that is the craziest thing. That's like with the teleport. Exactly how I just told you.

unknown 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

Fast forward my first year out of college. I think you know this about me, that I was a theater major and I acted professionally. So my very first professional show was in St. Paul, Minnesota, which is so funny because I ended up, as you know, now living in Minnesota. Um, I've spent lots of time between then and now, away from Minnesota, but I I had this the Park Square Theater. I was Betty Paris in the show The Crucible. The really fun, beautiful. We are doing a tech rehearsal. I am up on a platform. And if you know anything about The Crucible, it opens with the scene of Betty Paris, who's like 11 years old, 10 years old. I was 22, but I mean the 10-year-old. And I am in a long white pajamas on this big set. It's completely black. I'm getting ready for my first scene, which is screaming and yelling. The lights come on for the tech, and I go, Oh, I'm so sorry, you guys, but I know this happened to me. Like, I had this dream. I go, like, I just ruined the first tech of like I was like, this was my dream. It was literally the dream that I had.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

That is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Isn't that crazy? Anyway, that is one of the two. I won't, I won't I won't share all of it, but that is that is amazing. I couldn't put it in context then. It just seemed I thought the context was I was in the loft and Julie turned on the light.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

But that it was 100% that whole blackness all around me and being up on this big platform in the pajamas. I was in those pajamas. It was crazy, crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Anyway, it's amazing how how vivid the dream was and how much it was so fully aligned.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Yeah. The other one is crazy like that too. Like almost even crazier. Because other people were involved, and those people ended up being in that dream that I didn't even know.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

I know. Another dream.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

So you jumped them before you met them.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Yeah, in this, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

It was so bizarre. I was like, oh my god, I met you guys before. Sorry. I told you I wasn't gonna tell you, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Oh, what is the proper role of parents in the camp partnership in 2026?

SPEAKER_03 34:26

The proper rule?

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Is that what you asked me?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

As a camp director, what's the proper role?

SPEAKER_03 34:33

That parents should have the role they should take on. Total trust and no, I'm just gonna stop joking. It's a the partnership, it's collaboration. So, one of the things that I say for us, and it's totally fine when camps like this is what camps want to do, it's okay. But for me, I don't run Club Med for kids, right? Like, so it's not about the activities. For me, it's about building community and it's helping kids learn one, that they're capable, which we've talked about before, two, that they they can put their values into action. And so it's like a little practice of how they can do that. So, in order for that to happen, then I have to collaborate with parents on where kids' challenges are that we all have, right? Like it's not like just it's just I need the parents to help me, you know, kind of understand their child. We all have these, like when we're upset, do we shut down? Do we cry? Do we throw a temper tantrum? Do we and we all do like when people adults talk about like so one of the things I talk about with the staff is I mentioned my eye rolling, right? So basically, we've just learned how to do a temper tantrum in a smaller way, but that's our temper tantrum, is it not? Like roll our eyes. We've just learned over the years to kind of contain it, but it's still a temper tantrum when someone asks us to do something, and we're like, okay, fine. And the staff like they always laugh at that because that's what they're doing, or I'm doing the same, you know, crossing my arms and like okay, fine. So it's that understanding and and partnering and seeing, you know what, it's okay for us to partner and to to be honest with me when we're first talking, when they're first considering Ravatell. Yeah, I I really first of all I always listen to what they want from camp and if that connects, and then I talk about what what what what we do. I need them to know, like I they're going to sit and cry if they didn't get the red popsicle. I'm not going to find another, if there are no red popsicles left in camp, I'm not going out to buy more red popsicles, right? I get it at home. Sometimes that just feels like the right thing to do. For me, it's sitting in something that is that easy. That's like when parents say they want resilience. Like, well, that's how they're gonna practice it. They don't get the red popsicle, right? Yeah, and it's I'm not trying to be mean because there are other things that are more important that I'm going to like dig a little deeper to make sure we can accommodate. But in that situation, what an easy thing. They're not gonna not, they're not gonna like pass out from not having a red popsicle, they're not gonna get sick, they're not gonna like lose a friend, they're not nothing, but they have to learn to do that. Another place that we do this, and I always have to just tell parents, we they get they have an elective, the younger kids have an elective every day. And unless there's a major thing that they break their arm, you know, something that prevents them from actually doing the activity, because they get to pick it every day, so it shouldn't change. One day swim, one day art, however they want to do it, when they pick it, it's about decision making and how to live with the decision. Yeah, so they can't change it just because now it's too hot, now it's too cold, my friends are all doing this. I want them to think about those things. So we we try to encourage, we say, here's what the weather's like today. Think about and so because we want them to be resilient, but we don't want them to do anything that's gonna cause them to have to use resiliency in order to build it up, that's hard.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

Yep, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

I just say like camp is the place they're gonna practice those hard things. And as a parent, I know it's hard to watch your kiddo to do that. So I want to acknowledge that. So that like is the partnership and the cooperation from the role that the parent has is to trust me that I'm not doing this to be mean to their child. Yeah, but that just like anything when they're playing sports, when they're learning how to swim, like they have to struggle a little bit before we're not gonna let them drown while they're learning how to swim, but we have to let them use their muscles to learn how to do it. And it's the same thing at camp. So I need parents to be able to play that role and to get that phone call where the kiddo, like when the like we do phone call, we do two phone calls because we're a full summer, and that kid is like, I cry every night and I can't even sleep, and no one's helping me. And I I warn parents that's that might be the phone call. And but then to ask the other questions, like that sounds really hard, and then what else are you doing? They're like, I have a part in the play, and I'm gonna play with a soccer team, and then I gotta swim. And they're telling all the things, and then the parent, though, because it's hard, believe me, I'm you know, I'm a parent, it is hard to watch. They call me and they're like, She's crying all by herself in it. And I'm like, Oh, what else did she tell me? Well, yeah, she has a part in the play in it. I'm saying, so you're telling me that your eight-year-old can have really hard feelings and get up and be engaged and do it. So, what I know what I know from this is when your child goes off to college and they have a romantic breakup when they get fail or they don't do as well as they want on the test, they're not gonna not be able to get up the next day and function. They're gonna be able to do it. Doesn't mean they like it, doesn't mean that it's not hard, but I know your child, I'm more concerned about the kid who doesn't do can't get up. And those are the I told parents, I'm calling you. If we can't get your kid out to be engaged in camp and they're just upset, that's not working, right? Yeah, that falls back on my hubris and my ego, right? Like I can see that's not working. I've gotten much better at that.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

A lot of practice.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Okay, Charlie, last question for you. Six. So, Charlie, question number six: where should directors show unconditional support? And where must accountability be accountability be non-negotiable?

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah, I think it's physical safety. We can't like negotiate physical safety. And and I think that's where the clarity, like, we try to do rules and guidelines. So the rules are like this is safety, physical, like we cannot, we can't break those. And and as much as I'd like to have rule, because I don't want children's mental and emotional, like, but it's you can't put rules so because it doesn't apply the same to everyone, right? Whereas safety applies, like you jump off a roof, the chances of you like breaking something or getting it's it's the same for everyone, right? You might get lucky and you don't because you land a certain way, you went, but the chances are that you're gonna get right if you're or if you're out in a boat, whatever. There's just those for me are non-negotiable. This is what we do. I wish, I wish we had non-negotiables for the emotional and mental piece of it. I think that's what makes the emotional and mental piece of just living, yeah, so challenging. Because of course, you know, you grow up in a house where parents are treating, treating, we say that in quotations, everyone the same. We know that's not true. I I know that's not true in my own house with two kids. The first kid was my guinea pig, right? Like, I didn't, I'd never been a parent before. I'm like, okay, well, we're trying it this way, we're trying it that way. The second kid, okay, so we know a little bit more, but now that personality comes. Plus, they have an older sibling who's now also a parent to them, even though you tell them not to be. They're doing that, right? So they're not getting raised the same way. And and I don't think we need to look that we should be, you know, treating everyone exactly the same way. I think we have to like get to know that's the great thing about camp, is like connect and living. Let's just be honest about life. Is that if we can connect with people and we can say, and that's that empathy, instead of saying, like, oh, I am upset, and so you're upset, so I would give you a hug because that's what I want when I'm upset. Whereas instead of just saying, Hey, I see you're upset, like, is there something I can do? What would you like? That like practice, you know, that's a practice that's hard for us to do because we just kind of go to the rule of doing to others as we would have them do unto us, which is a lovely thought. It just doesn't work because it may not work for the other person. So that's where again, I'd love to just have rules. I would love it. I think life would be so much easier if we were just like, when we're upset, all of us we react this way to this. And so that's how we do it. It would make life a lot easier. I think it would make life boring, but it be simpler because it wouldn't constantly be guessing, like, you know, how am I supposed to? But I don't think we have to guess. I think that's the the magic is is being able to use one of the things that you talked about, which is that practice over and over of like that person didn't wake up to to do this to me when they use they argue with me, or the kid doesn't want to do something, or this my coworker refuses to get out of bed. I think when they do it over and over, we think that's it. And we're not looking at what's getting in the way of them being the person maybe they want to they want to be, right? Nobody wants to be the jerk or the not so nice person. It's just something gets in their way of doing that. And so that's the part where I think we we're constantly having to flow and negotiate and figure out how we live together and we have a community together and work together. That's the whole thing about camp, whether it's day camp or overnight camp. It's like we're doing everything together, right? We're doing it, it's you know, it's like a pretty cool staff and kids, you know. We're living together, we're working together, we're playing together, we're doing all of it. Yeah, so it's a pretty cool place to practice how to be really amazing people.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Yeah, I agree. That's a great place to put a wrap on this. Jolly, thank you. This is wonderful. I had so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

I didn't get to use my skip. Maybe you have to have worse questions.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

I'll have to ask harder questions of the next person.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Oh, okay. There you go. Thanks so much, Travis. This was a lot of fun, and I really just appreciate this reflection. I don't know that I've taken this time today to reflect on these. So thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

You're welcome. I I have one question for you before you go, but before I do that, I want to say thank you to folks watching this on YouTube or are. Listening to intentionally intentional leaders from GoCamp Pro. If you'd like to explore how to lead with more clarity and capacity, you can check out that resilience blueprint diagnostic. It's at camp.mba slash travis. And if you're looking for more great camp podcasts, may we suggest the Camp Code Podcast, the podcast that gave us our name as a show, where Beth and Gabrielle and sometimes where we talk just about how to run staff training at your camps. Before we go, Jolly, who is one intentionally intentional camp leader that you admire, or someone that you think that we should invite to do this next.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Oh my gosh, that's so good. There's so many people. Have you talked with Nick Shepherd from Sky Lamar? He's intentional. He's really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Right on. That's great. That's a great, great idea. Thank you. Yeah. Yep, we're just this first season, so we're just getting getting into it and finding our feet. So it's always nice to hear, and I appreciate your insight. So I had a feeling you'd have a good one.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

I had a few. Like I was like, oh my pick, but yeah, Nick could be good.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Thanks for being here, Jolly.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

You're very welcome. This is fun.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Everybody else, thank you for listening. Stay resilient, stay intentional.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

The Camp Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, summer camp leadership training and marketing consultants. Thanks for listening. Camp Hacker, bringing your world into focus.