The CampHacker Podcast

That Staff Member Who Wants to Quit Mid-Summer - with Emily Golinsky - CampHacker #229

• CampHacker - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 229

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/camphacker/staff-member-who-wants-to-quit-midsummer

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Managing Mid-Summer Staff Departures with Strategy

Join Chris, Travis, and Emily as they tackle one of the most stressful moments for any camp director, which is the mid-summer staff resignation. The conversation centers on why traditional "Camp Magic" marketing often sets counselors up for failure by hiding the gritty realities of childcare like exhaustion and physical stress. They explore the critical distinction between a staff member who is simply venting and one who has truly decided to leave, arguing that forcing an unwilling counselor to stay is a liability for both safety and culture. The team shares strategies for offboarding staff with dignity while protecting the camp community from the social fallout of a sudden departure.

Key takeaways include:

  • Recruit with Brutal Honesty. Avoid using only high-energy or positive imagery on your staff application pages because it fails to prepare young adults for the 17-hour days and high-stress moments. Showing the difficult parts of the job during the interview process ensures that the people who show up are truly ready for the responsibility.
  • Respect the Decision to Leave. When a staff member declares they are done, the best move is to let them go rather than pressuring them to stay for the sake of ratios. An employee who no longer wants to be there is a risk to the children and a drain on the overall staff morale.
  • Control the Departure Narrative. Have a clear policy for how staff leave the property, whether they are fired or they quit. Removing departing staff quickly and professionally prevents "pity parties" and keeps the focus on the campers while allowing the remaining team to move forward without unnecessary social drama.

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SPEAKER_01

You know that feeling that you get in your stomach when you're in your office working when camp's going, and some staff member you haven't talked to in a few days comes, peeks her head in the door, and says to you, Yeah, I think I'm done.

SPEAKER_00

This is Camp Hacker. Come find our show notes and our blog for camp directors and leaders at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_01

Running camp comes with enough moving parts. Ultracamp keeps registration, payments, and communication in one place so you can spend less time juggling systems and more time building an incredible camp experience. Learn more at ultracampmanagement.com/slash camphacker.

SPEAKER_04

Hello, Camp Mavericks, and welcome to the Camp Hacker Podcast brought to you by Ultra Camp and the Resilient Camp Blueprint Diagnostic. My name is Chris Hudson, and I am a camp consultant that helps camps bring their values into policy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I am Travis Allison. I'm a summer camp consultant specializing in helping camps reclaim their staff time, build resilience, and reignite their purpose.

SPEAKER_02

And I am Emily Galinski, excited to be here and founder of Bright Loose. I am also a consultant and a trainer. I work with camp, schools, and youth organizations to help folks navigate messy situations and work their way out of them with good strategies.

SPEAKER_01

Emily, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01

Emily, just quickly, how did you get started at camp?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, my mom stuck me on a bus when I was four, and I just never really looked back. I think it's day camp before overnight. We waited until seven, which I think on balance was a good choice. I've been I've been uh I was a camper and it was it was very impactful in my life. And uh then I took a short break, went to pharmacy school, realized I'd made a very poor decision, and uh and came back into the camp world and found out it was a profession, and that that was the story in two seconds or less.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Was there one particular thing that was super impactful when you're a kid at camp?

SPEAKER_02

I I think just uh being in such an environment of support and just being a place where I could really be myself and be welcomed as who I was, yeah, which was a bit of an odd kid, I think. And and I just I really enjoyed being able to go and reinvent myself in the summers and and have adults there that were there for that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, welcome to Camp Hacker. We're grateful you're here.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. And again, yay.

SPEAKER_01

Today we're talking about what happens when staff quits in the middle of the summer. I think we probably all do know what that feeling is: the surprise, the disappointment, occasionally the inner celebration, if it's just the right person leaving. But there's definitely things that go into this that we thought we should spend some time thinking about today. Emily, have you had that happen to you before?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Many times and frankly, multiple times this summer. And I worked for the majority of my camp career as the executive director of a camp for children with significant emotional behavioral needs. And that's not a setup for success for every person that thinks they want to be a camp counselor and just you know, hang out and have fun with kids. So definitely navigated my fair share of staff exits for sure.

SPEAKER_01

And how are you, Chris? Does it happen very often at Highlight? Highlight's a shorter program.

SPEAKER_04

So it's a shorter program. It hasn't happened very often. When it did, the the one time I'm trying, I'm really thinking back now. No one's ever left. But one time though, at the first campfire, like within four hours of the kids being there, the was it counselor's like, I don't think this is for me. And I was like, You better shut up and get back in there because we were out of time. But there was that moment where I was like, oh gosh, we just got you know, I always think that once the uh once the cabin meetings start, my job as the director, like most of it is over, right? Yeah, I just get to be the obuncular guy who shows up to activities, makes staff nervous, and he thrills the kids. So, like hearing that, I was just like, what am I gonna do? It it's a terrible feeling. But but, but, but I do wanna, I you know, when you're doing the intro, I was like, oh my gosh, because that I've I'd had that feeling. It's the same, it's the version, it's a cousin of the feeling you get whenever anything crops up at camp, right? But that's a huge one. The thing that I wanted to say is that when you like the secret celebration, when it's the right camp, the right staff member leaving, yeah. I've had that too with a firing, and it was so excited to do it. I know we're not spending on firings, but I mean, I think we're talking about today, like what do you do? And as always, I'm gonna start with preparation one and listen, this is the drama I've been beating for years. I think because the phrase camp magic makes you want to open this window and jump out. I think we in the preparation we can do a way better job of explaining what the job is to people before they arrive. I know, and I know we're not paying them much. So we really sell it. We sell the fun, we sell them being with a bunch of hot, sexy people their age. Like we we sell that really hard. And I think what we should sell is the responsibility and the stress of doing the job because not everyone is cut out for that. People who are cut out for fun and hanging out with young, sexy early 20s, like they're not necessarily cut out for like 17-hour days and kids vomiting on you. And I think we have to be really clear on that, not to scare people away, but just to give them the balance of the job. Someone else jumped in. I've been talking too much, but I I have more on this topic. But Emily.

SPEAKER_02

Well, isn't that? I think that's I think you you hit the nail on the head, which is the the balance, right? Because the the camp directors that I'm talking to are are trying to be honest. They are trying to give folks a good understanding. And also this generation is ill-prepared, you know, this this young generation is is ill-prepared to take care of other kids because there's still many of them being taken care of as children themselves, right? And so, you know, we don't put pictures of, you know, as you said, vomiting kids on our website. And I was gonna say brochure, but that would really age me, right? But like when staff go to our website and they and they see everyone's happy and there's this just almost toxic positivity in the images. And then we get to camp and a kid is crying and they're like, Oh, does not compute one job, and you're just like, Oh wow, we didn't mean that people were gonna be smiling 24 or 7. It's just like if we put all the crying children there, no one would send their children here.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So that's awkward. I think we shouldn't put a vomiting child picture on the website. No, maybe not. Uh but yes, to your point, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

What to expect for staff page?

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. Just on your staff page. It's like no parents, please. And then then you show them, you you show them the kid with like the bloody nose and like all of it. No, but in in all seriousness, though, I I think we can do a much better job of really leaning on the youth development and childcare aspects of the job and less about the like ultimate frisbee, seven hours a day. Like that is true, and it's also not true, right? Because all that is interrupted by like the real deal of doing this work. Also, I think it I want to know what you two think, but like I think it's worthwhile to talk to the staff about what happens if you must leave.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I just think it's worthwhile, and not necessarily to frame it like if this isn't for you, right? But to frame it as what happens if you should leave. So just everyone knows the practical steps, but what's more, it gives you an opportunity. It gives you an opportunity to sort of, what's the word I'm looking for, pre-convince them not to do this, you know? Because as part of that discussion, you can really lean in on like I I know this sounds super manipulative, but on the community trauma of that, right? And just for people to be really sure about whether this is the job for them, because although we have a protocol for you leaving, it may be easy for us to enact, but it's really hard for the children to digest. So if this is something that you are on the fence about, let's talk more about that before we like jump in and you sign a contract.

SPEAKER_02

It's really interesting, Chris, because you're talking about pre-contract and the consideration of quitting. And I think I went through now, I've been out of, you know, running a camp for a few years directly. And instead, I get to just like poke my nose under other people's tents and tell them how to run theirs, which is, you know, fantastic.

SPEAKER_04

It's really my lane as well.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't that lovely? And then drive away at the end of the day and be like, but I I did go through a period of time where we were hardcore convincing people when they would show up in our office in the middle of the summer and say, I think I'm done. We went straight into convincing mode. And I I went through a a period of time where sort of re-evaluated the risk of that, the the sheer liability and and also the emotional risk for others at the camp of having somebody who is in the process of making that decision or maybe has even made it before they came and told you about it. And then walking them back from the edge of that cliff. And I think sometimes we want to do that, and other times letting them go is not letting them go isn't firing them, but letting them leave is actually the right thing, celebratory or otherwise.

SPEAKER_04

I feel like if someone if someone wants to leave, you let them go.

SPEAKER_02

Correct.

SPEAKER_04

You let them go.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know that everybody believes that though. I think some people don't want it hard to hold on to their ratios.

SPEAKER_04

People, people work on that very hard, but this is this is my thing. I'm I'm saying it all season. If if I'm at a conference, you can see me talking about this. If if you come to a conference, but like same thing with homesick campers, send them home. If they don't want to be here, send them home. It's just it's it's gonna be easier, it's less stress on your culture. And and and when it comes to employees, you know what the worst employee is? Someone who doesn't want to do the job. And you know what the worst job for someone who doesn't want to do their job is child care. Camp counselor, yeah, camp counselor, child care youth development.

SPEAKER_02

There's a big difference between it's when they say it versus when they've decided. So are they venturing or declaring? Right? If they're venting, then let's support, let's figure this out, let's offer solutions, let's help regulate. If they are declaring and we're late in the game, then we need to respect that decision and make that departure for them feel not like a giant failure.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Agreed. Travis, we we me and Emily have been tennis matching. Sorry. Wayne in. That's fine. Wayne in, please.

SPEAKER_01

That's fine. I so stuff that you haven't, or just sort of haven't I spend time in some specific places that you folks haven't covered just to not repeat, because I I agree with the stuff that that both of you have said. I do think that you start to trace this back to so if you're looking at this from the situation of like this is somebody who's great who should be here that we have allowed to burn out, then we need to start to look backwards, backwards, backwards. And maybe it's when we need to look at the CIT program and make sure that they get a true image of what it means to be a counselor when they're a CIT. Sometimes being a CIT is like about talking about leadership without a lot of practical experience.

SPEAKER_04

I was just gonna say.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, we always had at least a week of in-cabin time as a CIT, which is great. I loved my CITs when I was a camper. It was so fun to get to know them.

SPEAKER_02

Uh an assumption that every camp has a CIT program.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That is a that's totally an assumption. I would certainly advocate for some form of training between camper and staff, but I also think that I mean some places, and this is regional, but some places staff are allowed to counsel before they're 18, as long as there is a co-counselor who's 18. And so, but there are places where you have to be 18 to counsel, and there's like the weird gap between finishing as a senior camper at 15 or 16 and then coming back three years later. And so I like something in there to make them see the other side of what it means to be on the other side of running camp for someone else instead of being there for yourself. Yeah. So CIT, have them really see it, have them really see the stress or hear about it. But I also think things like on your job app first of all. First of all, you should have a page on your camp website that says staff, and it's all about how great your staff is for parents. Your staff page should not be your staff application page. Big pet peeve of mine. Because parents will, if you're looking, you do like most of us, we don't think about it, but parents will always look at your staff page because they want to know who's gonna look after their kids. So then you should have uh apply for summer job or summer job page or whatever. And some of that should include this is going to be hard. And I think that between applications, interviews, and hiring in particular, there needs to be a lot more communication with staff these days between the moment they get an offer to the moment they arrive for staff training. And some of that is tools, some of that's a little bit of training. It, you know, it's who you're supporting, reinforcing the support systems, all of those kind of things so that people arrive a little bit better prepared. Doesn't mean that there isn't going to be amazing people who have to pull the shoot. That's just going to happen because we don't know what state they arrived to us with. But I think we can be proactive about it so that so that we don't get into the situation as much as some camps might.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, you asked at the beginning if I'd ever had anyone leave midsummer, and I said many people. And thinking back on that answer now, especially after Chris was like, I don't think ever in my career I've had someone quit. And I'm like, oh, what was I doing wrong? But I, or and I will say that there was a moment there, but I, you know, the the camp I was speaking about, there was no camper to staff pipeline because the children that attended the camp were not in a position to be able to be staff. And so the first time people were walking into the job, there was no CIT, there was no preview, there was staff training, and then camp. And so I do think for those programs that don't have that ability to sort of slowly ramp up the level of responsibility, and they go from this, you know, week of you know, college, like environment, fun, social, you know, and then the next day kids are there vomiting on them, if you will. And right, like that's a very hard transition. And I I agree with you that a CIT program uh enables folks to kind of determine whether or not this is something that they really want to do as an adult. That's a say that's a significant piece of it.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm gonna be controversial. I don't like CIT programs. I I have a lot to say about it. I'm gonna write about it one day. I have a lot to say about it.

SPEAKER_02

I think only you ran a podcast.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, only people were forced to listen to me half an hour every other week. Listen, just because you attended camp does not mean that you will be good at looking after other people's children and ensuring their safety. Most CIT programs run as if they are summer camp light themselves, because again, usually CIT programs they're charging the parents for their for the CIT to be there. So they are providing a service, right? So it it's it's gonna be fun first, right? Responsibility second, which when you get the job, it's actually flipped. So, and I'm not calling any one program out, it's just generally that's been my observation. I I think, and I can that that's maybe a whole different podcast, like what I would suggest, other than a CIT program. So I don't want to get derailed there, but I I do think that what was I gonna say? Oh man, there was that. I was gonna say something else super controversial. I can only keep one controversial thought in my head at a time. Apparently, someone else go and I will think about it. Oh man, this is why I take notes during this then.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I'm curious, I mean, I just talking about in that moment, right? Aside from the prevention and the the proactivity, you know, I think about sort of what advice, if someone's listening to us right now, what advice do they want when that staff person walks in the door and says, I think I'm done. And when I think about that, I think about all the pro productive solutions I could provide. But I think the the honestly, for me, it comes down to we don't need to solve everything in that moment for that staff person. Sometimes, just like with a homesick camper, we just need to make this afternoon or tomorrow feel doable.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And and that isn't necessarily convincing them to stick it out at all costs. That's saying if we're still in a place where we want to try, like what can we do to help you regulate and reconnect today?

SPEAKER_03

As opposed to I'm sorry, we need you for the next six weeks.

SPEAKER_02

We know get it get it together.

SPEAKER_04

Can we agree that we don't do that? Can we all agree that that is a bad idea? Convincing a young person who doesn't want to take care of children to take care of children is a bad idea. Okay. And I think anyone who's listening to this, if you've had the this experience, you know that pit in your stomach feeling. The one thing I want to say, I mean, what is what are scamp directors worried about when that happens? Ratio? Right, first thing, like, oh my god, this cabin only has one counselor in it. Now what am I gonna do? Okay. So, and listen, nobody's sitting around with like three or four staff members on the bench just ready to go in case this happens. If you are, congratulations, run a session, everyone will attend. Okay, I swear to you, everyone will attend. But it is doable. There are ways to move people around. I remember one year a staff member had to leave and it this was not ideal. But the assistant director moved in there and was the counselor and the assistant director. He got two paychecks, so he was happy about that. But also, that's the year he started losing his hair. So I guess, you know. What's that?

SPEAKER_02

I said, I think I know. I don't know. Maybe we crossed paths of some previous life because I feel like I am I knew the same human.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no, it wasn't ideal, but we were able to, we were able to kind of get through it, and no one died. And that's the thing. I know our jobs are just our jobs are thinly veiled risk management jobs. You know what I mean? That's what we do. We manage risk all day long. And I understand someone leaving, you're like, oh my gosh, that entire cabinet's gonna sink. You can absolutely figure it out. I'm interested in the impact on the culture because that impacts the staff and then impacts the kids traumatic. Uh I said traumatically, but I meant dramatically. Dramatically, but now I want to think about that.

SPEAKER_02

That was a good thing.

SPEAKER_04

Let me think about that. You go ahead. Someone else.

SPEAKER_02

How we how we respond to one person wanting to quit teaches the entire staff kind of what sort of place you're running. 100% who you are and how you handle yourself in adversity, and also whether you care about these folks as individual humans or just as cogs in your in your little staff spreadsheet. You know, and the answer should be should be the the former, not the latter. But in reality, I do think we get into that zone, it's the middle of the summer, and you're just thinking, it's only week five. If they leave and you're already moving the chess pieces, and you forget that there's a human being standing in front of you that's you know 16 years old, terrified to talk to you in the first place, has no idea how to manage this moment. And like, frankly, if we don't, you know, help them in that moment, the next person we're gonna hear from is their mom. And like that's even worse. That's a podcast in and of itself, also, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

I think we do that. Talking to staff parents, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I I feel like you know, I I do think like retention of of staff in that critical moment can't be about pressure, it has to be about like making that stay feel possible on both sides.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Right? Because they also can't walk out of your office and be like, oh, I threatened to quit, and instead I gotta raise. And right, like there's there's some things that we we we should not reach to in trying to keep people because they are very counterculture to your point, Chris.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

For sure.

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_02

You disappeared them, and you're like, well, but we did tell you that that's how that works.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. So about that. Yes, people get disappeared. I I at my camp, if you get fired, you never see another individual at the camp again, right? And if you have to stay, we move you into an empty cabin. No one, you don't come to you your meals at a different time. So you're not encountering another staff member or child because we're controlling the narrative here. Similarly, similarly. So that's yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

That's with any kind of. Oh, I just mean, yes, that's that that's definitely the case for fired, but you you need to also have the situation for when they quit that there's something bad that they know ahead of time that we've same thing because again, you know, you think about after the situation, the culture of that, right?

SPEAKER_04

For the kids, they'll they won't under it doesn't matter how you pitch it, they're not gonna understand why that person left, right? And a lot of kids are gonna feel like it's their fault, right? So that that you have to really control the culture of that. Also, challenge, I want to challenge something that you said, Travis. Let me, I'm gonna talk and think at the same time. So let's see where we go. Let's see where we go. But like with homesick kids, when we send them home, it's not final, right? What we tell them is that, you know, perhaps this was experimental for you. And, you know, we stay in touch and the aftercare is pretty is pretty intense because we don't want them to have a bad break. Similarly, if a staff member feels like they can't handle it, I and this every situation is different. I don't know if that cat member needs to be blacklisted. I think how you handle that situation will inform how they return if they return to the industry. If you really said you've really taken care of someone and really address their concerns and their needs while also acknowledging that they would like to leave, right? And and honoring their agency, I think like employ as an employer, you're gonna shine brightly in their head, right? And they may wide, they might want to return such an understanding space. Now, I'm not saying you should let you know, no raises, no perks, nothing like that, because again, you're not being rewarded for quitting, but I don't think you should be punished either. Like it's disappointing that we signed a contract and now you know you reneged on it. That's disappointing, but also shit happens, right? Maybe this it's good feedback for us too. Maybe we didn't. Can you tell us why you're leaving? Maybe we didn't fully set train you or like give me the information, help us make this better for someone else, and maybe for you, should you return next year.

SPEAKER_02

Also, when you're saying, like, where it's not not to punish them, like I think about consequences, and consequences are supposed to be a teachable moment, right? You know, the best consequence is something that is a direct result of the action. So they have their own consequences for that situation. Maybe they were doing campus and internship and they are leaving, and now they've paid a bunch of money in in school credit, but they aren't going to get the grade. Or you know, they don't have a reference from this time that they've already put in, because at least we should be telling them, please don't list me as a reference. That makes it real awkward for everybody, right? Because we've all been there. You get that call in September and you're like, oh, really? No, I don't want to tell you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you weren't great at this, dude. Right.

SPEAKER_02

You literally cried out of my office and got on a bus.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's do the job.

SPEAKER_02

You you were talking about just I think you said earlier, like some of your thoughts are controversial, and I I don't think they're controversial. I think they're hard to hear. That's different. These shouldn't be controversial thoughts at all. They should they should be I agree. I agree. Enlightening.

SPEAKER_04

But I say these things and people clutch their pearls, and I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02

I traps I made a note when you when you said about people say like they can't it's a b it's a bonus if they can afford to have a couple of extra staff. And I've been advocating and trying to shout from the rooftops that every camp needs a few extra people. And I can't tell you how many times people say, Well, we can't hire someone in case someone quits because we don't have the budget. And I'm like, Well, no, you literally do have the budget because that person is quitting. So you will not be using their entire salary. So by definition, you do actually have. And and and so I think it's hard though for folks that are especially new to the industry and learning how budgets work, to have that matter of as a matter of faith that at some point over the summer someone will leave early. And so you're not gonna end up having an extra staff person in your budget, you're gonna end up slotting them into a space that opens up and it's it's gonna even out in the end, but the stress comes off of you because you know there's someone waiting in the ways.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about other like prevention or indicators or things we can watch for. And I mean, I think that the there's probably signs for most people that something is up and that we can be really, we can train our supervisors to be really thoughtful and intentional and better observers of that. But another thing that I mean, a thing I've been thinking a lot about the last few years, and I'm putting it to play with clients this summer, is that I think we need to have better feedback from our staff regularly. It's like a five-minute fill-in this form where we give them time, not we send them home at the end of the day on the bus with the kids and expect them to fit spend five minutes on a form with us once a week. But that we set aside time, we look after the kids, you get your phones for this five minutes to just fill out the survey of this week. It can be anonymous. That's the first choice. It can be not if you want some help. But that kind of thing gives us a better feel for how camp is going earlier. Like it's just a tool. You probably won't know who the quitter is, but if you see there's a lot of self-satisfaction, and we all know from a tight camp community where people are just together all day long every day, and or sleeping at your site, that sometimes something gets going amongst the staff that eventually you can be like, I think it'd be all right if this person went because of where what how they're negatively impacting the rest of the staff. But I think there could be signs ahead of time before this moment that if you put some things into play, you feel like you have a little better read on your whole staff and how they're doing.

SPEAKER_02

And which questions you're asking in that survey as well, right? Because social dynamics amongst the staff are a huge hidden driver of attention issues, right? And so if you're asking, how's everything going with your group? Are your supervisors supporting you, but you never touch on how do you feel in terms of your own personal belonging, right? Do you feel a member of like a member of the community or things like that? Then you're you're not getting the right data, right? So you're still gonna be surprised.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. You're right, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02

I think you're wrong.

SPEAKER_04

I don't, I don't, I'm not a huge fan of anonymized feedback.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's not, it's I don't I don't find it useful. I I think it's a weird dodge of responsibility if someone I but this is this is more of my personal opinion than my professional one. I just I just don't enjoy anonymous like anyway, but but to your point, Travis, I think getting people to give us feedback, and we we have a whole we have a whole loop about this where the the supervisors are constantly asking the line staff for feedback on their jobs. Um, as a trainer coming in, I can see them in the audience, and I'll point them out to the camp director. I'll be like, you need to watch this person, that person, and this person. Yes, totally. I was I was for four hours and they didn't speak to anyone and they didn't look at me. So you like nip that in the bud now, find out what's going on before the kids arrive and before you do all the scheduling.

SPEAKER_02

But I'm not the only person that sticks my nose out and does that.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_02

I always worry when I'm walking away that I just like like took it one step too far. Like, thanks for all your help, thanks for all the training, but also like leave my staff to me. And I I'm always cautious in how I say it, but I feel like I just saw this so clearly. I see what's about to happen, folks.

SPEAKER_01

Like, let's yeah, it's people that invest in outside trainers are way more open to that than people that won't bring in outside speakers, so I think you're automatically in the right audience.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Also, because about 60% of the stuff that I talk about is inclusivity related. Yeah, it's really hard for people who disagree that all children and people should be treated equally and equitably. It's really easy to spot them in a crowd when you're having those conversations. And because that's foundational, I think all camp directors would like to know who can't handle the conversation about it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I don't think, Emily, that you're that you'd be stepping on anyone's toes. And I don't know, if you're out there listening, if you're out there listening and you disagree, I'd love to hear why. But I think for the most part, yeah, like Travis said, if they're bringing us in, this they want the help. They want help. We see things that they don't, we can say things that they can't. We, you know, that's that's the gig.

SPEAKER_01

I want to say one thing before we wrap things up here. I think that it's incredibly important in 2026 and going forward that you have some version of training after training, whether it's just little quizzes or remember we talked about this, but the I think it's even harder today for young adults to go from training as feels like college to the first day that kids get there and to bring all of the stuff that you were learning in a very fun way to bring it all forward to with you to the job. And I think the best camps are super proactive about just reminding staff and giving them tools and and Gabriel, who's been on the the show for years, a co-host with us. They have this pocket counselor that is on a they're required to have with them, it's on a uh carabiner clip and laminated sheets of just quick things that you need to know. Sometimes just games, but it's like the daily schedule. It's who you go to for help. It's you know, it's a lot more intentional. And I think that that kind of thing is pro yes, proactive in terms of maybe not getting yourself to a point where they're just just so overdone that they just have to pull the shoe.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent. Well, thank you both for that. Let us move on to our tool of the week.

SPEAKER_03

Tool of the week.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna start with the tool this time. I was talking to a camp pro this week who's like, I just have to get better at selling. And I just have to get you have to get be get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And it's like it's sometimes you kind of do, but you can also work this out so that it doesn't feel like that. And I'm gonna put an article in the show notes that a friend of mine wrote about her experience as an entrepreneur and he feeling so uncomfortable with selling and how she gets herself ready for that. So for us, I think that's when we are talking to parents on the phone or having a meeting with a donor if that's your camp, or all those things you have to get comfortable with the idea that you're convincing. And and uh my friend Carol will he has a whole framework around it that'll make it easier for you, I think. So you check out our show notes at camppacker.tv to see this and Emily's suggestion of her tool of the week.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, all right. I have the two sips roll. Uh so this is if someone is overwhelmed, if you're feeling, you know, flooded in that moment, you're having a hard time regulating, it's two slow sips of water before responding, ideally cold water, but it's a really classy micro pause to interrupt the panic without making it this whole thing, right? So if you feel like, well, if I just take a deep breath, people are gonna think I've gone away somewhere. I've haven't like I'm having some kind of moment. So if you don't want to look awkward while you're taking that one, we just take a sip of you know, just hydrate. Just hydrate. Nice little sip. It resets your system, but it also gives you an excuse to just collect yourself for half a second before you respond.

SPEAKER_04

I love that. There's always there's always a moment. There's always a moment between stimulus and response. I love that. My turn. So I just came back from a conference, and you know, everyone's like flinging business cards at each other, like like throwing stars, like and I don't have any business cards anymore. Why? Because I have something called dot cards. A dot card is like a single plastic, or if you're feeling fancy, metal card, which you can pick the color of, and basically it's got a QR code on one side, and the whole thing itself, if you just take it and tap someone's phone, it just gives them access to all your information. Whatever information that you want to share, whether it be your website, your Instagram, your LinkedIn, your email, whatever it is. The thing that I really love about it is that when you do that and someone opens it, it's they're asked to put their contact information in, which is so great when you're running around a conference. And one, I hate business cards. Two, I just love that at the end of the day, I go home, open up a website, and there's everyone I talk to. Also, it it timestamps it so I know where I met them and it it gives me an opportunity to enter notes so I can give you the key track. I met this person at this conference, I met this person in the hallway, et cetera, et cetera. So I would it it's really cheap too. It's like$20 or$24 to get one. So I unless you want the metal one. So if you're fancy, you're used to paying more. But otherwise, it's like it's it's great. And the QR code is perfect because at the end on the last slide of your presentation, you just put the QR code up. Everyone in the room now has all your contact information and they'll share theirs with yours, which gets rid of the whole sign-up sheet debacle and drama.

SPEAKER_01

Well done. Well done. And if you are more inventive than well, then paying to solve a problem, you can use your phone to overwrite a hotel key card to do exactly the same thing. NFC tags are rewritable. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Forget what I said.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yours will look better, there's no doubt. Who cares?

SPEAKER_04

Some people will be like, I'm gonna spend 20 minutes on.

SPEAKER_03

Who can make it look fancy?

SPEAKER_04

My tool of the week is doing what Travis just said. I'm overriding my tool. Do what he said, it's cheaper and kind of cool. Very, very ninja spy stuff. Very ninja spy stuff.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. You can also stick an NFC sticker that costs between two and four cents a piece. You can stick it on any object that you have at the front table with you if you're speaking, or that something in your pocket that is a toy or something that has just enough spot to put a sticker on it, and people it's exactly it'll do exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_02

I'm I'm picturing myself sharing like my chapstick with someone instead of a business card. You know, exactly. Because my brain is going in a lot of there's a lot to think about, guys.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that is exactly cool.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, that's another YouTube video I need to watch.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, NFC tags and it look up even better. Look up NFC tags and automations. That's a rabbit hole. All right. Well, I wanna I wanna thank you both. Chris, if people want to follow up, how do they get in touch?

SPEAKER_04

Well, it's easy. Get my QR code. No, it's okay. I'll just tell you the information right now. You can email me at planetchris at gmail.com. I insist that you go to my website, planetchris.net, which shows you all the cool stuff that I do and also a link to a parenting group that I'm starting. So if you're a parent, check that out. Yeah. Yeah. And also NFC stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, just get a sticker, pop it on, I'll show up. I don't know how that works, but I'm gonna find out.

SPEAKER_01

Everyone who's listening, you should definitely send your parent friends to look at Chris's new course that he's running here. You really should. You really should. I agree. Emily, thanks for joining us on Camp Hacker.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for watching. How can people get in touch? Oh, well, should people want to get in touch with me, they can email me. It's Emily E-M-I-L-Y at brightmoose training.com, which is bright as in shiny, moose as in, and then just training.com. So Emily at Brightmoose Training.com. Or they can also find me on the interwebs at brightmoose training.com.

SPEAKER_04

If people miss the moose sound, can you just do it one more time?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I don't think anyone missed it, but sure, just for you, Chris. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

And yes, I do stand up at conferences and introduce myself in the exact same way. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01

Perfect. I've seen it. I'm seeing it. Excellent. Well, I'm grateful for the two of you. I want to take just a second when we're here and highlight another Go Camp Pro podcast. In particular, I want to encourage you to check out the pudding, which is the show about the research done in the camp industry that I run with Dr. Mandy Baker. And we recorded the pudding just before this and had a wonderful conversation with a camp director who's doing some incredibly cool things. So I would probably at the time this comes out, you can do search for the pudding and look for Megan Gardner. And that she's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04

That's awesome. That sounds cool. I will listen to that. Travis and Emily and I want to thank the sponsors of this week's episode, as well as our editor, Ryan Vandatory, and Go Camp Pro's executive producer of podcasting, the one and only Matt Wilfred.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for the evening, friends.

SPEAKER_00

The Camp Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening.