Systems, Early-to-Beds, and Resilience - with Travis Allison - Intentionally Intentional Leaders

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/camphacker/ill-travis

Building a Resilient Camp Operating System with Travis Allison

In this episode of Intentionally Intentional Leaders, Matt Wilfrid sits down with Travis Allison, a primary architect of the modern camp industry’s culture of collaboration. As the founder of Go Camp Pro, Travis has spent decades helping camp professionals move past the "sprint" mentality to build organizations that are sustainable, efficient, and deeply human.

Using a D20 to navigate the conversation, Travis discusses his journey from a farm-boy-turned-camp-director to a global consultant. This episode is a masterclass in systems thinking, exploring how the right "operating system" can actually create more space for the high-touch, heart-centered moments that define the summer camp experience.

Take the Camp Resilience Check-Up: https://reselientcampblueprint.paperform.co/

Key Takeaways include:

• The Resilient Camp Blueprint: Travis breaks down his "operating system" approach for camps. By installing better systems for the "boring" operational tasks, directors can clear the mental clutter and reclaim the bandwidth needed to truly engage with staff, parents, and campers.
• The Power of ETB (Early To Bed): When the "Week 5 Despair" hits, Travis’s go-to defense isn't a pep talk or a pizza party - it’s sleep. He explains why mandating a 9:30 PM lights-out for staff is the most effective way to turn around a camp’s mood.
• IAAT (I Am Always Teaching): Travis dives into the philosophy that every action is a lesson. Whether it’s how a maintenance closet is labeled or how a director uses their phone at lunch, every system at camp is teaching staff and campers a way to interact with the world.
• The Two-Second Rule: Discover the power of micro-improvements. Travis advocates for a culture where everyone aims to make camp "two seconds better" every day. These small, decentralized changes add up to a massive organizational impact without requiring constant director oversight.
• Technology as a Bridge: While camp is a sacred tech-free space for kids, Travis argues that technology should be "front and center" for the professionals behind the scenes. He explores how using modern tools to solve operational problems is the best way to ensure leaders have time for the things that can’t be automated - like laughing until you cry.

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Resources:

Take the Camp Resilience Check-Up: https://reselientcampblueprint.paperform.co/

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Your Hosts

• Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
• Travis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro

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Thanks to our sponsor!

Whereabouts

Your mission is campers. Ours is making their experience coordinated and connected.

Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps Parents, Admin, and Staff in sync in real time — so every camper’s day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out whereaboutsapp.io/

Our free Resilient Camp Blueprint diagnostic is available at: https://camp.mba/travis

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Your mission is campers. Whereabouts mission is making their experience coordinated and connected. Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps parents, admin, and staff in sync in real time. So every camper's day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out today at whereaboutsapp.io. Hi everybody, and welcome back to Intentionally Intentional Leaders, a GoCamp Pro podcast. My name is Matt Wilford, my pronouns are he him, and I am thrilled to dive into another edition of this unique interview series. Each episode, our guest rolls a 20-sided dice to spark personal and campy reflections through three lenses memories, insights, and beliefs. Today, I am incredibly thrilled and honored to introduce a guest who truly embodies this show's philosophy. Joining us today is Travis Allison. Travis is one of the primary architects of the modern camp industry's culture of sharing and collaboration. His influence spans continents, which you can track through the GoCamp Pro podcast, racking up over 230,000 downloads in over 142 countries, his massive newsletter following, founding the Summer Camp Professionals Group, which at last count I think had about 32,000 members when it was at its biggest, and speaking to camp professionals all over the world. Whether it's through his consulting work, his influential publications like the Camper Recruitment and Retention Playbook, the Resilient Camp Blueprint, or being one of the first voices to talk about camp on Twitter, Travis's true gift is elevating the industry so that parents insist on camp being a part of their child's development. He has dedicated his career to ensuring unique voices are represented and that camp professional everywhere, camp professionals everywhere feel seen and heard. I have personally known Travis since I was a 10-year-old camper who insisted that he let me call home because I hated camp and wanted to go home because I was a whiny little 10-year-old. He did say no to that, but as I said in my wedding vows since then, I owe so much of where I find myself in the camp industry and personally to the culture of the spaces that he stewarded and the opportunities that he has presented me. I am so grateful to have Travis here in the hot seat and thrilled to welcome you, Travis, to intentionally intentional leaders. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I'm good. Thanks, Matt. That's a great intro.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Well, welcome, Travis. I know that we are co-sharing this hosting seat, doing it with a couple industry professionals. So you know how the game works, but do you have your your D20 with you?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I do. I brought it a big gun.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Okay, that's great. Travis and I, Travis is also responsible for my partially responsible for my love of DD, and we get to play Dungeons and Dragons every so often together. So if I call him Zoic by his camp name, you'll understand that. But if I also call him Rickrak by his DD character name, you'll have to forgive me, audience, for that one. So so Travis, each round I'll get you to, or each question I'll get you to roll the dice. The number that comes up selects your question for that turn, and we'll move through three rounds memories, insights, and beliefs. And don't forget that you have two special powers for this. So you have one skip. So if a question isn't hitting right or you want to go with something else, just say skip and we'll skip it and pick a new one. And then you also have one flip. So once per game, you call flip, I'll answer the question first, and then you'll answer it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Okay. All right. Well, let's get right to it. Please go ahead and roll your D20 and tell me what number you get.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

I got a number seven.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Number seven. Can you tell me about a moment in your life where you could have chosen a different path?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Yes, absolutely. I the shortest version of this is that I went to university at Carlton University in Ottawa, Ontario, and I was on an international development path just because I was passionate about making a difference. And so I was taking a lot of politics and lots of interesting courses in my first year, but where the split or sort of decision making happened is that at the end of that first summer of college, I ended up staying in the city and working in the city instead of going to camp. And by the end of that summer, I was on a camping trip with a bunch of friends of mine on Labor Day weekend. And I enjoyed that camping trip so much more than the fun summer in the city with lots of partying and doing fun things with my work. But the camping trip is like made me miss camp so much that at that moment I changed my major and focused on developmental psychology because I thought it would make me a better camp director, and then I was all in.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

That's amazing. I I actually didn't know that international development was in your field. I'm curious if you say you took that path, and what would be like an ideal job that you could have found yourself in today at your current age had you gone down that path? Where do you think you would have like liked to end up or seen yourself at that time?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

I I mean I think I was really interested in the politics of South and Central America, and which is interestingly timely today. But there were some really interesting organizations based out of Canada that I thought had really great missions, and the Canadian Food Grains Bank is one of those. I grew up on a farm and the food grains banks b puts away extra grains to be given away to people both as seed grains and as food grains, mostly food grains is in the name. And I thought that was a really interesting mission. I also thought that the Minnonite Church did some really interesting and thoughtful developmental work, much more than the Preston Church that I grew up in. And they were just really great leaders in the kind of development that brought in people to, you know, instead of doing for them, doing with them. And I thought that was really interesting work. So something like that I think would have been my path. Who knows? I probably I don't know. I might have gone into politics by now if if I'd taken that path.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Fair enough. I mean Travis Travis for mayor, I'll say it all day.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Well, I mean it's I've thought about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah, yeah. We'll we'll soft launch your campaign right now. That's what we're doing, I think. Okay, that's great. Let's let's roll again for question two.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Great. It is 13.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

What was the most significant year in your life so far?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Well, I think as a whole year, probably the year I graduated from university, I worked as a a seasonal camp director that summer, and at the end of the season, I begged that board to give me an opportunity to present a plan to them to actually return to a full-time year-round camp director. They had had that, and they'd canceled that position to get rid of that director, and they'd gone a few years with just seasonal camp directors. And so uh, I mean, in terms of big life impact, I had that summer, I thought we did really great things. Then by January 1st, I was working full-time at that camp. And I think because I was 23, I think that I was hired by that board who said, Well, we've got nothing to lose because the camp was in a lot of trouble at that time, and so we've got nothing to lose. So an enthusiastic 23-year-old who will work themselves till they're exhausted might be a good choice, and I think it worked out well for them.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

I think so too. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

So that was that was a pretty impactful year in terms of the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yeah, absolutely. I I think I said it in the intro, but finding someone who's going to give you that shot, I think that if that that there's a lot of camp pros out there that would be so lucky to have a board or another person believe in them to give them that that shot that's ultimately the catalyst. And you know, unfortunately that it had to happen because of a a bit of a last ditch effort, but sometimes it's it's whatever gets you in the door, right? Yeah, I'll take um okay. One more one more question in the memories category. So go ahead and roll your d20.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

All right. That is a nine.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

A nine. What is the biggest risk you've ever taken?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

I to be frank, I think that I did a lot of partying in university, and alcohol in my ADHD meant a lot of dumb choices. I was also kind of like I could never stop being a camp counselor, and so amongst my friends from college, I've always been known as the camp counselor that I could party with them and sort of keep everybody corralled and safe. But I think I made some dumb decisions that could have been terrible. So that's that's probably the right, the right answer to that.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

I think that's fair. I think it'd be so easy to like, you know, we we make a ton of decisions that have inherent risk in them in the in the camp world as as camp professionals, but there's always this like intentional safeguarding that we we set up so that even our risky decisions have a bit of a our have a have a fallback or something like that that that does it. But in our our personal lives, you know, we don't often make those calculative decisions, especially in in those those university years, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

So yeah, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

What about what about in your like talking about from the from the camp sphere? Can you think about like a operational risk or organizational risk that you that you took that maybe was was like super valuable long term?

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Well, I think that starting the camp consulting business in its own way was quite a risk because we're starting from nothing. I didn't have salary or insurance or any of that stuff. And so I think that was pretty risky. Like who knew that there could be enough money to make money as like an advisor to camps? I had to be really thoughtful about that and definitely creative about getting my name out there. But I think that was I mean, I I could have gone from being an executive director of a nonprofit camp to going to be the executive director of some environmental or developmental nonprofit, and that would have been kind of a sideways, pretty easy move. But starting the business was definitely a risk. I'm also just I'm not good at not being a boss anymore. Um, I did have a job like a couple years after camp, I had a job for 10 months and got fired because I'm just not good at not being the boss. And it was their company, and in all fairness, and they wanted to do it their way. I just didn't I couldn't stop my face from showing them that I thought they were missing some opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Right. That's yeah, that is that that hits home. So, Travis, I want to take a quick pause from the game show format, and I want to hear more about the resilient camp playbook that you have put so much time into over the last couple of years. And what I I not to give too much of it away, but what I love about it is that it's such a like an equity setting model for camps that this is this is a a tool that for for for private camps that have well-established like teams and budgets and and long-term vision, it's something that they can use, but it's also for the camps that you know, I think you and I grew up at the smaller nonprofits with a board and maybe one year-round staff member, maybe that they can find this resource valuable. So, can you tell us a bit more about that and like what your thought process was in creating it?

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Well, it definitely comes, I mean, been doing consulting for camps specifically in the marketing communications with a little bit of strategy and board work, but never the main focus. I've been doing it for 15 years. But the thing I kept finding is that in the last number of years, and we're recording this in January 2026, but in the last three or four years, the number of people in in senior leadership in our industry changed. Like some stats say two-thirds of senior year-round leaders at camps changed in 2022 and 2023. And the number of people who would have a discussion with me and I would offer suggestions, and they would just be like, I just can't handle any ideas that I acknowledge are good, I can't handle anything more right now, even I though I think it'll save us time. Like, even if you are making me a guarantee that you will 10x the amount of money that I spend with you, which I have done with people before, they would say, I just can't. And that level of overwhelm and and overwork is very problematic. And you know, camp as an industry loses good people because the industry expects so much of leaders, they expect them to give so much and to not you know not get paid for it and not be acknowledged for it, and all of those things. All of that led me to sit back and say marketing communications is great, like it helps people get more campers and fill beds, and even if they're smart about it, they can use what I teach to get more staff. But people need a system, and I call this the operating system, to give themselves space to think big picture, you know, to get beyond the worries of the next 48 hours or the next week. And if there are ways that I can be the bridge between sort of a systems mindset, which tends to make people in the industry a little bit antsy, especially for people who are really people focused, it sort of feels, I don't know, mechanical or industrial or something, I can help translate that because for me, the whole purpose of this is to clear space for camp leaders to have the time to spend with people, to invest in their staff, to, you know, to have the time to talk to parents. And one thing that that strikes me as a big reason to have this kind of space. When Beth and I were camp directing, I had a mom who called me up and said, I want to send my kid to camp, but I am terrified. And I spent an hour on the phone with this mom talking to her about everything, and she had lots of questions, and I could invest in that. If I was camp directing today, I would still do it, but I would have probably two-thirds of my brain solving other problems while not really listening to her, and or triaging email while I was talking to her. And I think we need to give good people the space to do that. I think it's what makes us special, our care for our staff and our campers and our families. And a lot of people don't have the space to do it. So if I can come in and install systems that help people make all that easier so they just have a bit of time for big picture thinking. And our industry needs big picture thinking in the worst way. I think there's gonna be a lot of struggles around staffing in this coming summer, even though people have had a lot of struggles in staffing for the last five or six years. I think it's gonna be a lot worse. I think that we setting up systems allows you to keep the cost of camp as low as you possibly can while still making it livable for your organization. And that's the kind of work that I I love that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Yeah, I I I such a it's such a truism that like people get into camp because they love people, whether it's kids, right? They love working with kids and those interactions, and then sometimes that grows to like loving working with staff teams and loving supporting parents. And it feels like as the world grows and demands have shifted and changed over the years, that so much of the operational things get in the way of the people thing. So I I love that this is about freeing up space and and it's using AI, it's using those tools, but not to replace the things that we're good at, which is the human interactions. It's it's to make you know our communications tighter so that they are better for the people that are reading them, so people can make better choices because you've made your communication clearer. I think that's that's something that I've taken away from from looking at all of it. So it if Travis, if people want to, you know, take the first step into understanding this or to learn more about how it can help their camp, where should they go?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Well, the the thing I'd like for everybody listening to do is go and take our diagnostic. And so we call this a resilient blueprint operating system or the uh interchangeably with a resilient camp blueprint. If you go to rbos.pro, rbo s resilient blueprint operating system.pro, there's a diagnostic there. And it it is sort of a play setter for you. It is the way that you can take this diagnostic, see where you're at, and then look at places within this operating system where you can make small changes that'll have big impacts. That is my that is my primary focus as soon as I start with people's like, what is the smallest thing we can do to have the biggest impact? And that's a constant question with clients.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Yeah, amazing. Okay, thank you. Let's get back to the game. We are in the insights category now, so please go ahead and roll your d20.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

That is an 18.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

18. Which is easier to apologize for when you've hurt someone else or when you've disappointed yourself?

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Oh. Um I think when I've hurt somebody else. I mean, I think that that's a good long-term that's what camp what I learned from camp is to um is to try to be thoughtful about the people around me. And although I definitely need processing time when like I have been I've said something dumb in an argument, and then it sort of just turned actually physically turned myself around and said, that is not that's not right. That what I just said is not right for you. Like I should never have said that. And let me rephrase that. And so that asking for a bit of grace in the time of that, but that I think is easier. I mean it's both hard, but I think it's probably the easiest of them.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

And I think camp people are we're harder on ourselves. I think everyone's hard on themselves too, and it's it's harder to like asking yourself for forgiveness can sometimes be harder, and and when you see the person, you're not looking at a mirror, but you can see another person, and it's like, oh okay, I I need to apologize to this person.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah, and to be fair, I think it is often easier for me to understand others better than myself. I think that's changing a lot in the last five years in particular, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah, 100%. Okay, go ahead and roll your D20, please. Question number two in insights.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

That's a four.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Travis, how do you get in your own way?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

The biggest version of that, I've talked a lot in the last number of years about my own mental health, and uh very strongly related to that is my own ADHD. And so I get in my own way. When a project gets to the point that it gets a little dull, I will get excited about something else. And so I then basically drown myself in in lots of fun projects that are at the fun stage, and none of them who are at the completion stage, or very rarely ones that are at the completion stage. And I have to just keep reminding myself, I have to go to the thing. And often I have to keep saying to myself, is this thing going to make us grow as a company? And if not, then I have to put it away. Uh, and there's lots of lots of interesting things to do in the world that I would love to do. And so I just have to keep reminding myself, but that's definitely how I get my own way.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

And you know, Travis, um I've appreciated over the last five years you've been super open about your ADHD diagnosis and mental health, I think, in a way that has not been as as candid in the industry and amongst you know thought leaders, I think in general. And I've really appreciated that. I've learned stuff about myself be because of your your openness. So, you know, for people, whether it's, you know, they have diagnosed ADHD or not, or they if they're encountering that similar problem, you know, I I hear you saying that to get yourself out of that, it's like, what's the mission? Staying focused on the mission. But is is there any other tips that you would give people who are in similar situations where they they feel like they've taken out a lot of projects and some are getting dull, but they might still be important. How do you how do you like navigate that landscape and and make the best decision going forward?

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah, I it to start the answer off properly to that, if you are in that situation as a camp person, as any kind of person, it is one you're not alone. A lot of us a lot of people with ADHD are drawn to the camp world because it's so dynamic, and and so there's a A lot of us, but not a lot of us talking about it. That's what. So people know what you're going through and are also going through it. And for me, I mean I have little tips and tricks that I use that work one day and not the next, and I forget to use them the day after that, and I have a terrible day. It a perfect illustration of this, Matt, is I guess we're recording January, this whole of the end of the end of the year wrap-up things, you know, from all the different services. And we don't use Spotify, we use YouTube Music or the YouTube whatever premium it is, so we use the YouTube music music thing. But uh the YouTube itself uh wrapped gave me their thing, and I watched videos from uh over 3,000 YouTube channels last year. And like just the fact that that happened freaks me out. Like it's terrifying, and it's anxiety-producing. And a lot of those things were helpful, a lot of those things gave me direction, but it is what it's like living in my brain, where I will just look for stimuli constantly. And you know, I have to just be thoughtful about those things so that I'm not uh increasing my own anxiety by having too many open tabs in my brain or just things that I'm super excited about. And so it I will say that one of the things that I have learned over time is that whatever side projects or things that I'm interested in or things that I feel passionate about over time, I have started a lot of things in any of those things, and not you know, not finish them enough to put them out in the world. But camp stuff I will do. Like I the camp stuff I will finish. I won't finish it all, but I'll finish the important stuff, and I my brain just won't do that for anything else but camp. It is the it's just a thing I have to acknowledge. I get excited about stuff. I'm on a committee for our county, you know, trying to encourage active transportation in Oxford County, and that's really so interesting stuff. I'm passionate about it, but I couldn't work in it because I just wouldn't finish stuff. But camp stuff, I'll I'll do it. Um and so I have to it's good because I love camp and I'm thinking about camp all the time, but I have to be really intentional about that.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Yeah, I I think it's not just you know, you said kind of off the start, we said like what's your mission, but it's also like that that true passion. I think there's there's there's so many frameworks that you can go through to to determine what that is for you, but but to like stay focused on those things before taking on projects in other spaces. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

And you know, I this was the uh I said this quite often when I was a camp director, and it is still totally true, where people would say, Oh, you work at camp full-time as a director, you must love doing things with kids. And my honest answer was I don't. Like I love doing stuff with teens and young adults, and so I have never really been super drawn to the program side, other than I love getting certificates, like I love getting high angle rescue courses and my Woofer and all of those things are really good learning challenges. Right, but I don't I don't love working with kids, but I love what camp does. I love that camp did what it did for me and a lot of the people around me, and so my brain just works at how do I make this easier for those people that do love kids, and that's why they're here, and how do I give them more chances to do that? And how do I make sure that more kids get the camp opportunities that I had?

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Right, yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, thank you for that. We I think this is question three now in insights that we're at. Maybe I don't know. Go ahead and roll your dice and we'll see where we go.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Okay, that is a one.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

One, okay, in DD world, a critical failure, but we haven't quite built the mechanic into the show. Well the season two of Intentionally Intel Leaders, we'll we'll have that in there, but a good question nonetheless. What is your best defense against the classic camp like week five despair? Whether that be amongst the staff team, you know, that that slog that kind of happens midsummer, what is the best defense against that kind of despair? And how did you build or how do you suggest people build that defense?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Right. The best defense is to send everybody to bed early. Like everybody, you're not allowed to stay up past 9 30. Um, as soon as people catch up on sleep, the whole mood of camp turns around. And that would be the first thing I did every single time that it would be like, man, things are going weird here, and everybody's grumpy, and and be like, Yep, early to bed. That's the rule.

unknown 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

And sometimes I would want to do two nights in a row because I saw how much, you know, but Beth wouldn't Beth's like people need time away from their kids. You can't make them go to bed with their kids. But even if I was running day camp, I would find a way to make sure that my staff, I would do everything I could to make sure my staff got rest in that situation. Like you just need rest. And so, yep, that's the thing is get some sleep early to bed for you. Early to bed for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah, eat eat to ETB. We still we use that language in our household today. And and what I like, I like you and Beth to give people the insights of someone who was a camper under Travis and Beth. Like, you don't I as a camper, I don't I remember moments of the two of you as as camp directors, but like there weren't a ton of like rules at Cairn. Like there was the four S's, right? We had to, we had to follow the the safety, like, is it safe? Is it good stewardship of the environment? Is does it build my self-esteem? Does it serve the community? And you you answered those questions and it was good. But like the directors didn't you guys didn't throw around your power a lot as directors. There weren't like it wasn't like get in line, brush your teeth, like all like brush your hair, wear a uniform. That wasn't the type of space. And I think like, but when it was ETB and as staff too, like when it was ETB, it was ETB. And I think that was like a very thoughtful use of your power in that way, which is literally like go to bed, you dummies, because you're gonna stay up as staff. You're gonna stay up until curfew every night, you're gonna stay up until one, and that is ultimately not going to serve yourself or the camp experience the best way. So I think it's it's thoughtfully using your power as the director in that way.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah. And you know, my philosophy as a camp director, and this this came early, but I and I think it's what I do now. It's like I want to help people do this great. I don't need to be the center of this. I loved having things that I've like little things that I was known for, you know, like a chant like one duck or the jig of joy at the end of a meal. Those kind of little things that people would, you know, as campers wouldn't see me do once or twice a session. But I got in like this person wanted to fire me in the middle of a summer because I let us she was mad that I wasn't in front of the whole group with my guitar leading every song. And I just had to say, it's it's not my job. Like my job is to make them good at it. Um and I'll teach them and support them and be there with them and play with them lots of times, but it's it's not my job to be the center of attention. I don't believe in that kind of philosophy. I do think that every camp director should have some sort of magic trick that they can pull out that everybody loves and looks forward to. Um but yeah, I I I've not been a center of attention all of the time person. I've definitely taken it when I needed it and put it on sometimes when I didn't want to or didn't feel good about it, just didn't feel up to it. But yeah, my my job then and now is help smart caring people take care of other people.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Right. And and and sustainability is a thing, right? Like that if Joe, our our friend Joe Richards calls it the cult of the camp director, that if everything revolves around the camp director, when that camp director gets called away for something more important than playing guitar at campfire, campfire needs to be just as magical as it would be is if if you were leading it, right? So I think that's that's a a lesson that I think every camp director needs to hear. And and once you have like three years, you can understand that it can't be that way, but it it's it's a hard lesson to learn for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

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SPEAKER_02 32:18

Alright. It is a three for this section.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Do you think that people can really change?

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yes. I do. I've seen it and like that's what camp is. People change all the time. Like, it's one of the great privileges of this job that you get to see people when they're young, how much they change from one summer to the next. Um, you get to see them try on your different selves over years and watch them finally settle into a thing. I think camp provides a safe place to to try out all that stuff. But yeah, I think people can change for sure. I think that it is for people who are interested in change. There are lots of people that aren't interested in it, and they won't, obviously, unless something drastic and radical happens to them. But you know, I'm drawn to people that are learners, that are changers, that are people that look for solutions, and those are people who are changing every day.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

So you're saying people can, some people choose not to.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

You think that's for whatever reasons you know, they don't have the energy, they don't have the time, they don't care to, they're it it feels safer not to, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

I I buy that. I buy that. Okay, question number two in beliefs. Go ahead and roll.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Okay. 16.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Okay, we're we're going super existential here. How often do you think about death?

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Oh, I'm gonna flip that one on to you, Matt.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

That's a good use of flip. I not much, I don't think. I I mean I am very I feel very blessed with the life that I'm living now, and and I I I what I often think about is I'm a huge like maximizer. Like I I really try to think about like how what's the most efficient way I can do this, or what's the best way that I can I can like show up for my for my kid or show up for the organization I'm working for. Like I'm a very like try to do the best I can always and like to my detriment a lot of the a lot of times. Like the I I had a conversation with my my partner about how sometimes I find parenting frustrating because of how slow it is, and not slow, like I like I can sit and play blocks uh for a long time and I like I love I love that stuff, but like the development of a child is not a quick process, like it happens over over over days and and with consistency, and that sometimes that's where I I struggle because I'm I'm like, oh, what's the best way to play this game or like get this brain function for my daughter? I don't know, which gets me into trouble, but I I I think that I I don't think about death because I think I'm gonna be doing that until the day that I do die, and then when I die, it's over, and that's and it's and you can't you can't maximize death. So I think that's where I stand on pre-maxed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Death is pre-maxxed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Yeah. Yeah, I I'm the same. I don't really think about it. I think I've had the privilege to not think about it. And it's not like I haven't had loss in my life. Right. Um, including one of my best friends from the time that I was about 14 years old died about 10 years ago. And so obviously died really young. And, you know, despite that, and loss of grandparents and family members and you know favorite camp people, I don't get too stuck in death.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Okay, we're on our our last question, if you could believe it. So go ahead and roll for it.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Right on. Number 11.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Oh, this this is perfect for you. This is this this question, this is like the Travis question. Where should technology be invisible and where should it be front and center at camp?

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Oh, at camp. Well, I almost feel like I've answered this in that um I I think using technology as camp professionals is such a tool for giving you more space for people. And so yeah, I I I I believe in having technology at camp. I a tech guy, I love cameras and you know, all of those things. But I do think that there are times when people should be without their phone and should just focus on what's in front of them. I would say that if I went back to camp directing today or we went back to camp directing today, I probably would never not have my phone, but I just want to be able to take pictures and you know look up fun things at lunch because I think they're funny. But I I think it's important that kids have a break from that. I have a fully formed brain. So I think it's important that kids and our staff have a break from that.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Yeah, I agree. I and there's a difference. I think some people are very, you know, religious about their like no phones at camp, period, full stop. And I think there's the difference, there's a difference between having it to take a photo of an amazing moment and capture a moment versus, you know, I'll fully admit to being the camp director who was checking my email at the lunch table when I could have been having conversations with kids or I could have been having conversations with staff. And and eyes are on you as the camp director. So if you're checking your email, that's that's that's the same as a a camp, uh a staff member checking their text. It doesn't matter that it's camp business, it's it's the perception in that moment of being unplugged and and using it thoughtfully. And yes, and in case people didn't catch it in the in in the crosstalk there, your philosophy of I am always teaching, I A A T. I I have it on one of my seven water bottles around me, that that sticker. And that was a philosophy that I taught to camp staff all the time. It's is is that that we're teaching those lessons. But when it comes to technology, yeah, I think it in my work with talking to politicians about summer camp and whatnot, like the one of the huge benefits of camp is that it's a tech free space in that in that sense for people. It's it's still something that people believe to be foundational about the camp experience, give giving room for there's lots of different types of camps out there that have tech more integrated, but from a like break from social media, a break from the algorithm, you know, camp is still one of those sacred spaces in that way that I think is is is is important that we that we hold on to.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

You know, I I think about this as you've been talking, it made me reconsider my answer. Like I think electronics, that's that's my rule. It's a tool, and like any other tool, it it helps us it as long as it is helping us provide a safe space for kids to feel noticed and appreciated, then it's the right tool. But I I keep thinking more about this resilient blueprint operating system, and one of the big principles of that is that we are constantly looking for the smallest possible ways that we can make positive change at camp. And so some of that might show, those systems might show. So, you know, for example, I worked with with our old camp. I worked with the senior staff on trying to set up the maintenance closet so that it would be effective, they you know, wouldn't spend as much on inventory, people could get in and out of there, get what they're needed, and that means you put labels on lots of things, and you know, those old basement workshops that had the painted outline of a hammer, because the hammer goes in that spot, like those kind of things I think kids and young adults should see. Um, and that's technology, it's a system, and so if there's a way to get them in that mindset of I am looking for ways to improve things every day, and my philosophy around that is always if we can build a culture that everybody makes camp two seconds better every day, it's such a small change that it's easy to make, and a lot of people can just make that change without having to get permission. Um, but those add up because it's a big community and there's lots of people, and you know, CIT LITs get that philosophy, and then it goes down to the kids, then camp is just better. Everything in the world is to me, it comes down to sitting around a table with camp people or or campers and laughing till you cry. And sometimes showing those systems tells people how they can get to more of those moments. It can be right on you know, focused in front of them, and but so I guess it's a it's a both answer.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

I agree, I agree. I think it's what it comes down to is eliminating the barriers that prevent you from being able to sit at the lunch table and laugh till you cry. Yeah, and and and and every day those barriers get bigger and and bigger and and and you can get lost in the rabbit hole of of technology and tools and AI and all of those things. But at the core, you know, the reason you say laughing till you cry is because I know you can like ascribe five core memories to you doing that, and that is what like keeps our heart in the industry through those days that are inevitably going to be slogs of having to fill out government paperwork and do your accreditation stuff, all the stuff that like we're not that that doesn't fill our hearts but is necessary to get done. So I I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah, well, Travis, that brings us to the end of our time here. But so, first of all, thank you. Thank you for your transparency. I mean, I didn't expect anything less from a conversation with you, but we we have one request, as you know. We end our intentionally intentional leaders with a nomination. Someone who you think is a thoughtful, intentional camp leader or director that you would nominate that we interview next on intentionally intentional leaders. Who is that for you?

SPEAKER_02 42:08

That is Jackie Rail. Jackie is the owner director with Gabriel of Camp War, a girls camp north of Montreal. And people hear from Gab quite a lot on our network because she's one of the co-hosts of of Camp Code, and she was a founder with me of the Camp Hacker podcast. But but Jackie is just really it's incredibly intentional, and the level of intention that is the culture at Warrow is remarkable. And and Jackie was an early mentor of mine before I was working with Beth, and gave me a lot of time and space that I don't think I quite earned. You know, I earned it later, I suppose, with her, but she was just really open and sharing. So Jackie Rayleigh's my pick.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

What that that is an amazing pick. I think I will have to fight you over who gets to do the interview. Or I I want to at least be in the room.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Okay, well, thank you, Travis. I I appreciate this. And thanks for for being on the podcast and being being a guest for once, huh? That's pretty nice. Yeah, that's fun. That's really fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

And thank you. This is great. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Yeah. Okay. Thanks, everyone. Take care. Thanks for the evening, friends.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

The Camp Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, summer camp leadership training and marketing consultants. Thanks for listening. Camp Hacker, bringing your world into focus.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Hey Camp Pros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, if you've gotten even one good idea from a Go Camp Pro podcast, masterclass, from the Summer Camp Professionals Group. a conference or wherever else, we ask that you give credit where credit is due. That way, it'll encourage camp pros to keep freely sharing their ideas and make the camp industry as a whole better.