From MBAs to Songbooks - with Jane McCutcheon - Intentionally Intentional Leaders

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/camphacker/iil-jane-m

Mastering the "Business" of Camp with Jane McCutcheon

Building a thriving summer camp requires more than just "warm and fuzzy" feelings, it demands rigorous professional standards and an intentional focus on safety. Many leaders struggle to balance the magic of the campfire with the hard metrics of a successful operation. This episode breaks down why treating your camp as a high-level business actually protects the heart of your mission.

Big Ideas

• The Business-First Paradox: Why prioritizing your camp as a business is the only way to safeguard the "soft and fuzzy" outcomes for your campers.
• The Danger of "Homegrown" Hiring: The one interview question you’re likely skipping that identifies if a staff member loves the place or the people.
• The Return Rate Deep Dive: How to use granular camper and staff return data to identify your strongest (and weakest) unit leaders.
• Rethinking Supervision: Why the transition from "free time" to "absolute supervision" is a necessary evolution in modern camp culture.
• The Caring Counselor Metric: What a 1992 focus group revealed about why parents really choose camp—and it’s not what you think.

Your Hosts

• Travis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro
• Jane McCutcheon - Jane McCutcheon is a legendary camp owner, author of over 10 industry-standard camp books, and an MBA graduate who has spent decades professionalizing the summer camp industry.

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Thanks to our sponsor!

Whereabouts

Your mission is campers. Ours is making their experience coordinated and connected.

Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps Parents, Admin, and Staff in sync in real time — so every camper’s day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out whereaboutsapp.io/

Our free Resilient Camp Blueprint diagnostic is available at: https://camp.mba/travis

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

This is Camp Hacker. Come find our show notes and our blog for camp directors and leaders at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Your mission is campers. Whereabouts mission is making their experience coordinated and connected. Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps parents, admin, and staff in sync in real time. So every camper's day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out today at whereaboutsapp.io.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Welcome to Intentionally Intentional Leaders, a GoCamp Pro podcast. Brought to you by the Resilient Camp Blueprint Diagnostic. It's a free tool that we made to help you reclaim your time, reignite your purpose, and build your resilience as a camp leader. You can take it at camp.mba slash Travis. So on this show, each episode, our guest rolls a 20-sided die, or I do it, and you can see it on the screen. And then we pick a question based on the number that comes up through three different lenses memories, insights, and beliefs. My name is Travis Allison. I help camps turn care to action, building the camps that help people feel seen and supported. And today's guest is Jane McCutcheon. Jane, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. I'm excited for this conversation and I appreciate your time on it. As I said in the intro, three rounds, memories, insights, belief. I'll roll, you can see the number. I'll read off the question to you. And you get one skip where you want to go to a different question. You just don't think you have the right answer for that one. And a flip, which means you make me answer it first, and then you two.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

And a flip and a skip per category, or just once in the whole game?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Once in the whole game.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Save it. Absolutely. Uh okay, so I'm gonna share so that everybody can see me roll here. It's uh 20-sided die, so we'll pick from one of 20 questions. All right. First question, Jane. First question, Jane, is what was a moment in a in your lifetime when you could have chosen a completely different path?

SPEAKER_03 2:15

When I graduated from my MBA at Western University in 1979, I could have become a chartered accountant or a bank manager, and I went back to camp.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yep. What why did you pick camp over those very um what's the word? Just very stable professions, a lot less stressful uh jobs than camp jobs.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

I had been accepted into my MBA when I was 20 years old, and Western University encouraged me to go out and have at least one or maybe two years of full-time work rather than coming straight from an undergrad to a to a master's. So I had been working in the springs at camp, and some of the full-time staff at the at the outdoor center at the camp where I worked were leaving. So I decided to go for one year and I had such a good time. I stayed for two, and then I went back and did my MBA. And when I graduated from my MBA, the business manager at the camp was leaving. So the camp director said, How would you like to come back, be the business manager, and write some books?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, and write some books 1979.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

So we wrote 10 of them.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Exactly. And I want to talk to you about the books too. I'll do that in between the sections. I feel like Jaden, you and I have a similar brain where we see this business stuff and keep thinking, man, that would apply to camp so easily. If we could just we can make camp better if we start looking for these opportunities to do some of the business stuff that we've learned.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

I've always said you need to think of camp first as a business and then as all of the soft, warm, fuzzy things that we know we do to create good citizens.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Yeah, yeah. We definitely agree on that. All right. Question number two. Question 17. Where did you go when you needed to escape when you're a teenager?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

As a teenager, yeah. I don't think anywhere because I went to camp every summer. I was on staff when I was 17 years old.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Moved a lot. My dad was with uh Bell Canada, so we always moved, and it was having new friends and figuring out new schools and new households. So I think I never felt like I ever had to escape. We were always on the go, and my mom was always positive about the moves, and yeah, you know, it was it was great. I I have no regrets as a teenager feeling like I needed to do something different than homeschool and camp.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Right, right. It was campus uh, I mean, it sounds like campus pretty consistent through all of those moves. Was it always the same camp?

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Yes, I started at age 12 at uh Camp Twingo in Huntsville.

unknown 4:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

And so camp is like that consistent home.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yes, there's no question. They always talk about your third place, you know, you have home and your school or your work and then your third place, no doubt. For many of us in camping, camp was our third place for sure. For me it was, no question.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, me too. Me too. Excellent. Okay, thank you. Go to one more question in memories. What was a conversation with a camp parent that still shapes how you think about this job today?

SPEAKER_03 5:27

I remember a little girl who was very concerned about coming to camp, and her parents called me and we had many conversations, and I talked with the little girl as well. I never use the word homesick because I don't believe you're sick. I always use missing home. So we talked about her missing home, and her parents told her that if she would just try to go to camp, it would make them happy. But if she were really, really, really unhappy, they would come and pick her up. So she arrived and she was really, really, really unhappy. And we had some phone calls back and forth. And on about the fourth or fifth day, she said it was in the evening at about seven o'clock, and night times were the hardest when she was getting optimized to go to bed. And she said, I can't do this, I just can't do this. So I said, Will you come on over with me to my office and we'll call your mom and dad and we'll tell them to come up and pick you up tomorrow. So we did. And the parents on the other end of the phone call told her that she could not come home. I said to the parents with the little girl in the room, you make a promise to your daughter. And if you don't come and pick her up tomorrow, I will drive her home. The parents were dumbfounded. And they said, We'll call you in the morning and let you know what time. I walked the little girl back to her cabin and she gave me a great big hug, and she said, I don't want to go home anymore. And she ended up staying for the whole session. But I just remembered about how we try so hard to teach good values and we keep our promises. And I'll I will never forget that little girl at the end of that session coming up and giving me a great big hug and just saying thank you. So that's probably my most memorable moment with a little child.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Oh, that's great. That's great. Did she end up coming back to camp? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 7:18

She I don't know because I wasn't there the following summer.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah. All right. That's great. Well, I appreciate you doing the memory section. Um, as you said in your intro, Jane, you have been involved in camp for a long time, worked and owned a camp, and you wrote a ton of books. What were your books about?

SPEAKER_03 7:40

The first book that we wrote was a songbook because our camp was pretty famous for song leading and sing song leading, and we tried hard to teach all of our young staff how to lead a decent sing song. So there had been a book that had been started years before. And so the first task was to finish that very first songbook. And then we wrote another songbook with a set of 50 different songs, and then we wrote a book on campfire programs, how to set up a recreational, really great program that involved active participation by your audience in the beginning and tapering down to a story and a quiet ending. So we wrote a book about campfire programs, and then we wrote another book which had 10 complete campfire programs with an opening, sing song, games, skit, stunt, story, and a closing. And then we wrote a book on a series of songs that were a little more complicated songs that you might teach if you had campers there for a longer period of time. And we added specialty games in the areas of nature and campcraft and waterfront. We wrote a games book with 200 games, and we wrote a book called High Above the Thundercloud, which was a book on the history of indigenous. It's not a book I would write again today, but we were attempting to be very respectful and to also teach the heritage. We actually had a co-author was Dr. Bryce Taylor from York University, who was returning to indigenous communities to teach them their own dances again. He was a very dancer. And we wrote a book on the camp nurse and the health program with help from Mary Casey from she's an OCA honorary life member. And my all-time favorite book was one called Spread a Little Sunshine, which was quotes from camp leaders, great quotes to use to start or finish a day, more um, I'd say songs with more meaning to them. I don't want to use the word spiritual necessarily, but songs that you might use in a thought for the day or a non-denominational program. And then we went back through all the old Canadian camping magazines and got permission to repost stories by some great Ontario and Canadian camp leaders. So I love that book. It was my all-time favorite.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yep. It's definitely my favorite of them too. Folks are listening. I would encourage you to look through your camp libraries because I would bet that these books were in 75% of camp libraries at one point or other. Um, and such really well written to make it easy for us all to apply the stuff that Jane had written.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

We sold about 150,000 copies around the world of all of the books. We self-published and have a little camp brochure printer do the printing. And yeah, it was it was fun. It was from 1979 through to about 1987. So some of them are dated, but some of them will live for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

They absolutely will. They absolutely will. Well, thank you, and thank you for that contribution to uh leading camp for the rest allowing us to lead camp better too. So we're grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

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SPEAKER_02 12:09

I'm gonna switch this chain and go into the insights section. And uh so a little more time to come up with the next question in insights. 18. Who was uh peer to you when you were growing up that you modeled your behavior after, good or good or bad?

SPEAKER_03 12:29

This is before working at camp? You mean as a child or other?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, I mean you can take it wherever you like. This is open to I would think it's kind of open to whoever you feel like you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

I think it's probably my sister. We were only 20 two months apart, but we were only one grade apart in school because she was a March baby and I was a December baby. And so I think we became best friends. I went to nine different schools. My mom and dad moved 15 times, and I was with them for seven of those moves. So, as I said, we would just my mom would come home and say, Your dad's got a promotion and we're moving, and they would go find this lovely school. Uh my brother, I have an older brother, and so sometimes they had to go to three schools: a junior, a middle school, and a high school, and then they'd look for a nice home near the good schools. And so I think it was my sister. And when she wanted to go to camp the first year in 1966, I didn't want to go. I I decided not to go. And so my mom and dad and I went up to visit her halfway through her month at camp when kids used to stay for the at least a month. And she'd just come off a five-day canoe trip and had had the time of her life. So I was 11 then. So I said, Oh, I think I better get going to camp. So I went back at age 12. But we had a summer cottage growing up. My parents built a log cabin from scratch, and we we spent our first many summers as young people at the cottage. So I would think that my my big sister was certainly my best friend growing up, and uh she she's great, and we're still still good buds, so you have to be my sister.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Of course. All right. Next insight question. Question number seven.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Six, I see.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Oh, you're right. Yeah, I stopped watching when it rolled. Okay. Um, I stopped watching what was still rolling, so thank you for that. The the qu the question number six is good because I like this question actually better than question seven. Uh, especially for you, Jane. What metric do you think most predicts a good summer at camp?

SPEAKER_03 14:39

No question, your return rate of campers.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

How so much percentage of campers have choose to come back and help market your camp for their friends and other family. So I believe for all time it is the return rate of campers.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah. When you have a higher versus lower return rate, on top of the it's just easier to fill the beds, what do you think the impact is on the ground when the kids are there and programs running?

SPEAKER_03 15:10

I think there's a there's a dangerous impact in that if you have a high return rate, unless you program well and you set up your tent or cabin or unit groups well, you can run the risk of a new camper feeling left out. So I think it's really important that that be understood in the makeup of the way that children either live overnight or go to activities. I think that um I think the impact is familiarity, familiarity that when campers arrive, they they already know the lay of the land. And I think we still need to refresh, but I think as long as your camp provides progressive programming so that returning campers have new challenges at new ages as they grow older. So 11-year-olds shouldn't be doing what 14-year-olds are doing at camp. They may be using the same activity areas, but they shouldn't be doing the same actual activities or programs. So I think it gives you that wonderful opportunity to do progressive work with children and really get to know them. And then, of course, so many of them want to be leaders at the camp that you're able to evaluate them as they grow older and get closer to staff age or counselor and training age.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah. I think it's a it's a great point that um camps have to be intentional, the theme of this show. Intentional with how they set up their camp culture so that those kids who are excited to come back don't overwhelm the kids who are there for the first time and a little timid about what camp means.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Right. And just to clarify the return rate, being a little business-minded, I think it's really important that when when camps determine their return rate, they don't include the children who are simply too old to return.

SPEAKER_06 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

And I also think it's great to do a return rate by staff. How many of counselor and cabin A's children came back the next summer? And to do that kind of a metric to find out good staff that you want to keep and nurture to become key players in other positions.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Right, right. So to be perfectly clear, you're saying that you're watching by which unit counselor uh what the return rate is within the unit so that that counts that the different counselors worked with in the summers.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Exactly. So if there's you know uh eight children in a cabin in cabin A, and you know, Susie's the counselor for whatever number of sessions, how many in the first session came back in the following summer? How many came back in her second session? If she moved to a different age group, how many came back? It can sometimes help you track who's best working with which age group as well.

SPEAKER_06 18:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

And again, you know, there's lots of reasons for children not returning. It could be a family trip, it could be a circumstance of something different for that summer. So it takes a few years, I think, to really make sure that those metrics are sustainable and they really tell the right story. But that's certainly a good place to begin.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah. And we learned something, we weren't quite that specific about it, but we did keep an eye on return rate by we still didn't have the best databases when when we were starting out. Um, it wasn't easy to figure that out. We did a lot of it by hand. But something that Beth and I noticed that was not a surprise to Beth, of course, but a little bit of a surprise to me, is that we found our return rates kind of between the two main camp personalities, the in front of everybody singing, leading all the chants and cheers person, um, versus a quieter, more sensitive person who would notice the kids. And I had because I think it was what I looked who I looked up to when I was growing up, the in front of everybody leading all the songs, um, you know, running around in all the games things, that's who I assumed would be our returners, and we learned it was the quiet counselors who are good at noticing and great at making kids feel welcome that would actually have a strongest impact on our returns.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Often the case, you bet. And we need both of those in our camp setting. But I think those metrics can really help you define that person that's a little bit quieter where you don't see the good, wonderful little day-to-day things that they do because they don't choose to shine in the same way. They they love being quieter and calmer and you know, just enjoy their kids. So, I mean, I think the first big question you need to ask anyone that you're interviewing to be on your staff is do you like children? It's often they just want to come back because they've been there forever and they want to be there on staff with their friends and do all the fun things the staff get to do. But I I remember when we kind of startled ourselves and said, Have we asked if this person or did we ask if this person actually likes working with children? So great place to start.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that answer because it's definitely the make sure you're able to challenge your own assumptions for how you're designing things and learning about your people as well. Question number, question number nine. How has your definition of good camper supervision changed over time? Thinking specifically about a unit head, a cabin counselor, how is that what you think the good version of that is changed over time?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Uh years ago, campers had free time. They did not have to be anywhere specifically at any time. They could go to the sports field, or they could go to a general swim at the waterfront, or they could stay in their cabin, or they could sit outside with friends. I think the world has changed so drastically, and and I find it sad, but I think good supervision today, and I I wouldn't even just say good supervision, I would say absolute supervision. No question asked is that you need to know where every camper is, every minute of every day, whether they're day campers or overnight campers. There is no question that you cannot leave a group of young children alone in a cabin anymore because we don't know the influence of bullies anymore. We don't know a child who may be in real trauma at home and decides they need to go home and see their mom and they run away. You know, not this happens very often. Can't afford to have it happen ever. So sadly, I say good supervision is knowing where every child is, every minute of every day. And they don't always have to be together with their unit group, but they need to be fully signed in and accounted for, no matter what the activity or where in camp they may choose to be.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah. It's been fun to watch the um industry change to find a really great thing, the great setup that incorporates kind of both that level of freedom and the we know where everybody is. Um, as the free play movement has moved through camp, it's it's not just everybody go do anything for a certain period of time. It's like with within these boundaries, so that we know that you're safe, you have time to do what you want. You don't have being determined by the clock, but we can still have the proper supervision of those kids.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Exactly. And it needs to be developed according to their age, so that little kids have fewer choices in closer quarters, potentially, where they can be well supervised, whereas older campers may have a few more choices with a few less staff there to be in charge, depending on what it is they choose to do. So to be able to go read a book on the deck of one of the activity buildings is a great choice as long as somebody knows that's what you've chosen and you showed up to do that.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah. Yep, I agree. I agree. Uh, last question in insights. Question 12. What do you think uh what negative experience or we're gonna call it failure most improved the way you thought about hiring and training staff? What was the biggest lesson you learned about hiring and training staff over time?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

I think it's what I said earlier. It was the question of do you like children? Because we often would simply take on a staff member who maybe hadn't grown up at camp but was really good friends with someone who had. And we were in a position where we had a pretty good return rate of staff. But there were a few times when we simply assumed that because this great counselor had a great high school friend, we probably didn't do the interview to the same degree. And again, I'm going back a few years because I haven't been actively involved in hiring staff now since 2002. So 24 years later, I think all of the procedures with respect to human resources have changed. The policies, it's so different. But I really think that was the one assumption is that everybody comes because they love kids. And I realized over time that that simply wasn't true. They came sometimes just for the place, not necessarily for the clientele. They just wanted to enjoy their camp home in a different role as a staff person. So I think really delving into why do you want to come to camp? And again, um, asking about life experiences in the in the interview, tell me about the time when you felt like you showed good leadership at school in a project, you know, working with other students. Tell me about an experience as a babysitter that if you ever babysat. So I think open-ended questions that allow a staff person to describe a personal life experience is a really good way to interview as well. So I think it was just taking too much for granted and thinking that if they've grown up here and they want to come and they want to get people next to nothing for working for me, they've got to be great. But that's not always the case.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, yeah. That's great. I appreciate that. Thank you. Uh, in the belief section, number nine, has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed over time?

SPEAKER_03 26:07

No, no, and I and I'm lucky. I grew up in a great household, and we were basically taught say please, say thank you, do what you say you're going to do, show up on time, be a team player. I think those are still the things that we all hope for in the world right now. And I've I've certainly made mistakes in my life and done things that you know I would never do again, um just because I was young and didn't think about the repercussions potentially. But no, I think I think a good person I think you can grow into being a good person by example, by experience, by the peers you choose to spend time with. But I think I knew from a very early on time what a good per what it meant to be a good person.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

A good person. Wonderful. Another role. Question number eight. Uh uh. What do you think is the most important legacy that we can have our staff carry from their time at camp into the rest of their lives?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

I think we learned how to work really hard without knowing it.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Because so many of us something had something funny happening with your mic. I'm gonna get you just pause for a second, start again from I think we learned.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Okay. I think we learned how to work really hard at camp without really understanding what that meant.

SPEAKER_06 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

And particularly because I never worked in a day camp, I only have the experience of an overnight camp, but you were basically on duty all the time, unless it was your actual day off. I think the legacy for all of us is when we move into our full-time profession, if it's not camping, yeah, we become really good employees. We become really good team players. Yes. Often we become entrepreneurs. And, you know, it's always been said the best teachers in the school system are people who went to camp. And the best team players on a management team are people who went to camp. And I remember a dear friend of mine in the US, we talked about how do we get the great big corporations when they're looking at resumes to find out if somebody went to camp? Because they would look at that as a top priority, they probably would find really great staff members. So I think the legacy is that we helped create good citizens. For the most part, we became good citizens ourselves, and we didn't realize that until we were exposed to the rest of the world and the way that other businesses sometimes operate. So I think it's a great legacy, and I think that we will continue to do that in camping for all time.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yep, I agree. So we have one more beliefs question, and I have one I want to ask you, so I'm not gonna roll for this, but uh, I like this question a lot. I think you'll have a uh an answer that people will really appreciate. What is a good summer at camp in one sentence? And how do you know when that's happening?

SPEAKER_03 29:16

A safe summer has to be a good summer without incident or any kind of negative side to the operation.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

We will always have campers who go home happy and campers who may not go home happy, but I think safety has to be at the top of everything we do and think about because we are taking people's most prized possessions and looking after them without parental care on the property or in the room. And I think that responsibility is sometimes larger than we even realize as young or for our young staff to realize. So I think a safe summer is a great summer.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

And it that really aligns. So we've done work with Joanna and um and Dan Weir and done some interviews with parents who chose not to send their kids to camp. And you know, we ask them why and some of the things. But one of the things that came up, always their first concern is safety. And when we look at communications that camps put out or marketing about camp, safety tends to get a bit buried. And that's one thing Joanna and I in particular have been trying to say is like you have to talk safety first before you get to say youth development or or any of those things to get parents to listen.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

I can finish with a bit of an interesting story about that. In 1992, I was on the board of the Association of Independent Camps with the American Camp Association, and we decided to hire a consulting company that had most worked mostly with private schools in the United States. But we wanted them to help us figure out what is our product and what do people think of us. And so they did a series of focus groups and interviews, and they were surprised with the outcome of the product of camping. They said it had one of the highest rankings as a positive product that they had ever seen in any of the work that they did. But the number one reason why people who were interviewed chose to send their children to camp above safety, the number one answer was a caring counselor.

SPEAKER_06 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

And they were shocked, and we were shocked.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

But a caring counselor makes sure you're safe.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah. That's great. Well, Jane, thank you so much for this. I'm I'm grateful for you sharing all these and and sharing your insights with the industry. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Thank you, Travis. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yes, I'm so grateful to have you. So this is a wrap on this episode of an intentionally intentional leaders from Go Camp Pro. If you'd like to explore how you can lead with more clarity and more capacity, take the Resilient Camp Blueprint Diagnostic at camp.mba slash Travis. And before we go, Jane, one last question we always ask: who is an intentionally intentional camp leader that you think we should interview and invite to be on the show next?

SPEAKER_03 32:20

John Jorgensen.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

John Jorgensen. Good pick. Thank you. Thank you all for listening. Stay resilient and stay intentional.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

The Camp Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, summer camp leadership training and marketing consultants. Thanks for listening. Camp Hacker, bringing your world into focus.