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Winter Conference Debrief - with Justin Pritikin - The Day Camp Pod #136

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Day Camp Survival: Feedback, Neurodiversity, Social Skills & the Coming Enrolment Cliff

What happens when camps are forced to rethink everything from culture to communication and even their core values? In this episode of The Day Camp Pod, the team unpacks key takeaways from the winter conference circuit, tackling big topics like neurodiversity, feedback culture and the looming enrollment cliff. It’s a candid, forward-looking conversation packed with practical ideas to help camp leaders adapt, stay relevant and strengthen relationships with both staff and families. If you’re thinking about what the future of camp really demands, this is an episode you won’t want to miss!

02:27 Teaching Staff to Take Feedback

06:52 Neurodiversity and Sensory Needs

11:38 Rethinking Rules and Inclusion

13:49 Generations and Risk Taking

16:02 Sarcasm and Social Connection

22:45 Mingling and Social Skills Training

26:41 Eggshell Topics and Boundaries

31:32 Back to the Big Picture

31:47 Handling Late Staff

34:03 Enrollment Drop Scenario

35:32 Defining Camp Value

38:32 Storytelling And Trust

43:11 Recession And Differentiation

45:28 Relationship Marketing Ideas

47:18 Keep Swinging And Adapt

50:48 Youth Perspectives And Incentives

53:11 Advice For Enrollment Slumps

58:07 AI Tools For Operations

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Episode Links: 

Matt Kaufman’s Newsletter and Book

Dr. Jean Twenge

The Mingle Project

The Plunging Birthrate 

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SPEAKER_04

Fewer babies being born to our future customer base is smaller. Add rising costs in anxious families, and this isn't just a cliff. When money tightens, value gets audited, culture gets audited, staff performance gets audited, all while sloppiness and mediocrity gets expensive at warp speed. The camps that refuse to evolve won't collapse loudly and build a road quietly until the map catches up or a multi-camp entity decides to add another infinity stone to their gauntlet. So, happy car ride tour. I'm Justin Fritakin at Liverie Lake Daycamp, and we are going to spend the next chunk of time talking to the Daycamp podcast hosts about what they've learned at a few of the last camp conferences they've attended, pre-Trach State, regarding how it shapes the industry right now and what they're actually going to do at their camps to fend off the upcoming enrollment clip. This is the Daycamp. Daycamp pod.

SPEAKER_03

Yay! This is the Daycamp pod from Go Camp Pro, bringing you the best ideas, strategies, and discussions in the Daycamp industry. You can find our show notes at Daycamp Podcast.com.

SPEAKER_00

The Daycamp Podcast is brought to you by CRS, commercial recreation specialist, your go-to source for recreation solutions that will ensure that your camp thrives. Explore their website today at CRS for rec. CRS is serious about AM Skyer is the leading insurance and strategic partner for many of the finest camps in America. AM Skyre partners with camps to provide public relations, legal, medical, behavioral support, and more. Experience the AM Skyer difference. Learn more at AMSkyre.com. Let me tell you about CampMinder, the number one camp database in the world, has the most robust offerings of service features found anywhere. Every feature works together to create a full seamless system that helps your camp office run more efficiently while giving your camp family state-of-the-art communication and financial tools. Check out the details at campminder.com. Welcome back to the Day Camp Podcast. I'm Andy Prinnikan, director of Liberty Lake in the Philly Suburbs, New Jersey.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Sam Thompson from Crystal Lake Park District in Crystal Lake, Illinois.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm Jordan Grosinger. I'm the director at Camp Robin Hood in Ontario, Canada.

SPEAKER_00

And as you guys heard, we got Justin Priteken back in the show.

SPEAKER_04

So first thing I want to talk about is. Can we just start, Andy? Can we just get let's dive right in. Let's dive right in. First thing, Jordan, you went to a couple sessions recently at some really great conferences. What was an interesting one that stands out? Any of them.

SPEAKER_01

One of the awesome ones I went to was our friend Max Clayman did one on feedback. And it was all about teaching staff to receive feedback. I think it kind of we spent so much time teaching our middle managers how to give feedback, how to be on top of that, how we recommend them doing it, but not enough time teaching our frontline staff how to receive it because I've noticed in the past couple of years they really struggle on what to do with what they're being told. They take it too harshly or they don't listen at all. And I think we can spend some more time at training. And Max gave a really awesome framework on how to do that.

SPEAKER_04

Max is a smart guy. Max, shout out Max. I'm a little jealous they made this point. This is a great point. This is something that I'm shocked we don't talk about already because where I'm concerned mostly with our young staff is that they are a little quote unquote incapable than they previously have been able to be. And I think that's just because kids are so different and we haven't necessarily solved the code on that. And then we tell them to be great at that. And it's hard to then expect that. So in this, you know, survival economy, it's hard to survive inefficiency. And how our staff react to correction is important. Andy, what are two tips you give middle managers on how to not have staff be defensive or ashamed or shut down when you give them feedback?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I would like to hear what Max says because he's well anyway, I like setting the stage for them because many of them have never been in this situation before. So we usually do a session during staff training where we we sort of we we talk about it and we say this is what's going to happen. And then we remind them the week of it happening again so that they understand what the dynamic is going to be like and the fact that the people giving the feedback are often more uncomfortable about it than you taking it, by the way. And just get them into the headset so the expectation is not there. Because I think part of it is the shock aspect of it. I mean, I remember my first time being a teacher, my first year as a teacher, and the first time I got feedback, I was a little bit taken aback by it. I just I just wasn't my head wasn't wrapped around it enough. So I think it's expectations of what it's going to be like and and why we do it and that kind of thing. That's my setting the table.

SPEAKER_01

Justin, can I jump in for one sec just to add on to this?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, pile on.

SPEAKER_01

I think that this whole idea of mediocracy, and like I I like to tell my leadership team like we need to take on that awkwardness from some of our staff as well. Like, I'm all for some social consequences too that might happen when we don't kind of meet those expectations, but it's all about that high expectations, high support piece. So really front loading as much as we can, like Andy's talking about, and say, and Max talked about the different types of feedback. So informal, semi-formal, formal, right? All those different things, but not letting it be a surprise to people. I think saying this is what's expected, and then at a staff meeting, say, hey, who got semi-formal feedback this week? Hands up and kind of meeting them where they're at. So I think all that front loading really makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02

And I think timing is a big issue. I mean, it's much easier to give feedback in the moment when it happens, you know, so they understand what you're talking about than telling them, you know, a couple days later, remember that time that you did this. Maybe you should have, you know, if you can do it immediately, then it's not as scary as well.

SPEAKER_04

I find that sometimes people have been made to feel that like feedback is a threat instead of a tool. And a good framing I was taught was to like just say it as advice. Always say, Hey, I have some advice for you instead of saying I have feedback for you. And you say the exact same thing that you would say, which is basically just do this completely differently, and this, that, and the other thing. Because building feedback stamina takes time. And I like that like public display of like, let's all raise our hands at the staff meeting if we receive some foreign feedback. And the I guess like the performance anxiety compiled with like the loneliness paradox of like there should be some real social implication if you're bad at your job, because we know everyone socially is struggling to fit in. And it should be cool if we raise our hands and say that we got feedback and that should be something that we acknowledge. And I think that's a a cool like place for a young adult to feel confident that they were coached in a weird way. Yeah. Sam, you went to a podcast, not a podcast. I keep thinking these are all podcasts the way you told me about them. You went to a session about behavior, kind of, sort of, senses. What was that like?

SPEAKER_02

Ah, no narrow diversity with Lydia Gartner. That was at Nationals. And, you know, we've done that subject in man in many ways and many conferences, but she clarified so many things for me and put it in context, you know, thinking about yourself. Do you like hugs? Do you like lots of blankets on you? You know, what kinds of things are your receptors or whatever? So I found out I was a pro-preoceptor system. So that's the you know, impact. The most muscles are in your jaw. So I'm a gum tour. You know, I like hugs, I like the pressure. So that you have to figure out with your kids if they want that support or they don't, and how do they want it? One really good example she used was a cup. Some kids have little teeny sensory cups and you fill it really quick and they're gonna lose it. And other kids have sensory cups that have a hole in it. So you constantly they want constant sensory input into what they're doing. So, anyway, yeah, I can, you know, we can get that information from Lydia Gardner. She was amazing.

SPEAKER_04

I love it. Sam, what is going, and we can all answer this question. I don't want to answer this question. Andy's gonna answer for whatever you like. But what are families or kids going to experience differently because of like our better understanding of how, you know, there's more diagnoses given out, especially within neurodiversity, and there's more undiagnosed dysregulation. And so we know this. So what's going to be different at our camps? Because I don't think this is a special population conversation anymore. I think this is an everyone kind of thing. And I don't think there's a margin for error if you're like, oh, our camp, we don't, we don't handle this. It's like, well, your camp's gonna be out of business in a couple of years. That's that's the real truth of the matter. So what's gonna be different this summer?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. It's all of us. And you know, that was what this brought up more than anything, as we all have our our input needs. So we do a disability awareness training during camp, but it's gonna be different this year because we're gonna figure out our own support system so that then we can spot it better in our kids because every kid with or without a diagnosis responds better to different support. And that's always been the way for camp. We just haven't named it that. We haven't looked at it in that framework before. And I think looking at it that way simplifies a lot of things for us. Our counselors should be trying to figure out what they need to do with each of their children to give them what they need.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, the way that we've always talked about how to deal with kids with additional needs, right? It's not that much different than dealing with all kids, right? It's the same concepts. And, you know, Justin has done a lot of talking to our frontline staff over this fall and winter, and they all need support, supporting behaviors. It's it's a big thing. So, you know, to answer that question from Liberty Lake, I asked you, Sam, I I think that's the thing is that we just have to get better at teaching how to manage behaviors for everybody, not just the people that deal with special populations, but for for all kids.

SPEAKER_02

It's easier to be patient when you understand the child.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I think there's been an evolution of I know our own inclusion program. And I think it does go back to kind of that in enrollment cliff and kind of staying true to what you're saying and providing what you're promising on your website and in conversations with families and all those things. But an inclusion program, inclusion program back in the day was like kids with very identified needs. I think that was the view of a lot of those inclusion programs. But now if you say you're an inclusive place, which is the expectation of a lot of families, then you have to live up to that. And that can encompass these sensory profiles that Sam is describing. Like everybody has sensory needs, right? And so it's we're we're doing a lot of focusing this year on walking a mile in someone else's shoes for our staff and giving them a taste of what somebody with a variety of sensory needs might feel. Like, oh, you're sitting on the grass to get instructions for canoe. What might that feel like for some of our campers who may not have identified needs, but how are our staff going to be prepared to accommodate for that, right? What are how can they problem solve in the moment? Oh, here's a towel to sit on. Maybe you can sit at the picnic table. Maybe, you know, it's okay to stand. You don't have to be sitting on the grass because of what it's doing for your for your sensory needs there.

SPEAKER_04

I love it. I think that the most common phrase I saw on a camp website, I was studying a bunch of camp websites for like a whole year. I was just going on as many. If I met you, I went on your camp website and I stopped it. And there's so many like we meet kids where they're at kind of line. And it's like, what does that actually mean in this day and age? How do how do you live that? And the sensory seeking and sensory avoiding, and you know, some kids need movement, so on and so forth. I think that the big shift that I experienced at Everwood that I thought was really cool, was especially at lunch, where they were like, Yeah, you can have some kids sit over here, and you have some kids over here. And then like I talked to staff who literally late and they're like, Yeah, it's so hard to get all the kids to sit at this one table. It's like, why are we fighting this battle? Does this actually matter? Why are people going gray over this? It's interesting. So that's just a nice little like perspective of it that's not mind-blowing. But I think that sometimes where I find our staff struggling is they don't we we don't necessarily train them on how to interpret behavior rather than just try and control it and they label something as defiance that's just dysregulation or even program mastery. The kids just bored, they've been here for eight years, and the program hasn't changed with them, and they're they're kind of just done with it. And it then we have this pressure of like, you know, we have to be great and performance anxiety, and then that like 16-year-old is never gonna be kind of crashes and burns in front of you, and you're just like, Oh my god, it's okay. And they're like, What? So that's Andy's favorite part of the job. He loves when that happens.

SPEAKER_00

By the way, I want to I want to shout out Camp Wingate Kirkland on Cape Cod, who allows their kids to sit anywhere for lunch, which I think is so anti-what most camps would want, and especially like at Liberty Lake, where the group is not together that much, and it's just one of the few opportunities for them to be together. But they do it for a lot of the reasons that we said, because the kids are just happier, they spread out, do what they want to do, sit where they want to sit, you know, kind of thing. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I love looking at your rules from why did we have this rule? What surface, what purpose is it serving? Because sometimes you come into a program that has, like you said, a bunch of rules that really have are not that important that can be bent or changed.

SPEAKER_01

But I think our staff maybe don't know what rules can be bent and can be changed. And I think we'll probably get to it. I know at Coda there was a great speaker on generations and talking about. Let's go.

SPEAKER_04

Let's go. Tell us about Julianne. Let's go. Let's risk.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Jean Twangy, I know Andy wants to dive into that. So I'm gonna let him do that. But Jean was an incredible speaker, and she talked all about the different generations and how they show up, how what their behaviors are, how we can support them in our camp settings, because we have a couple of different generations at play in a lot of our camps. But I think a lot of it had to do with like risk taking and trusting themselves and making decisions and that performance anxiety you're talking about. Like they're so unsure of what to do. And it's like we have maybe a couple weeks to instill that in them over the course of the summer. And she talked about a lot of ways that we can do that, looking at trends and things like high school kids these days aren't going out partying like they did before. Like drinking levels have dropped. And at the surface, that might seem like a really great thing, but they don't have any practice taking risks. And that's one example of a risk, but there's lots of different ones. So I thought that was that was an amazing, amazing keynote.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, she was talking about this is the generation of plastic playgrounds and um and of kids being in car seats until they're 12 years old. That's now we're dealing with the repercussions of that. It is it is very interesting. And and the adult supervision is is part of that too. They're so used to being told what to do and being supervised by adults as opposed to you know my generation where we just sort of went out and played. Yeah, and now paying for it a bit. But like you were you were saying, that not going out and partying, not having sex, not getting their driver's licenses. That was an interesting statistic, too. And then we think about the precarious positions we put them in in our camps, right? Managing kids in high-risk situations and high-risk weather and and all that kind of thing, fatigued, etc. It's a lot to ask of them.

SPEAKER_02

I asked our beach captain one time, he was here 40 years, and I said, what generation was the craziest? And he said, It's gotta be the 50s. They were having sex everywhere. I was like, Oh, okay, not what I expected. But yeah, so every generation's had something that's been a problem.

SPEAKER_04

I think that I'm gonna I'm gonna connect this a little bit to something that Sam did send me in an email prior to this about the like the dissing culture that's happened at camps, where I don't think people know how to like talk to each other the way it used to be done. And if social media has taught us anything, is that social commerce comes, pardon my language, day camp pod listeners, from being an asshole. There is real social commerce and saying something mean to someone to generate a reaction or to get a lot of attention. And so there is a lot of sarcasm masking insecurity amongst camp staff and young people in general. And then you, you know, put all these people in close proximity and hope that they become friends. And proximity does not equal connection in this day and age. It does not work that simply. And when I zoom out to like training staff and even training middle managers on how to train staff, the thing that Andy and I spent so much time talking to people about in this preseason is like, what do you do on the third day of camp when there's this third grader who hasn't made any friends with the group? What advice do you give to the group leader? And like asking division leaders this question and asking head counselors and asking group leaders who are, you know, known as like superstars at camp. And the short answer is people don't know the answer. People kind of just are like, yeah, well, like then I gotta like talk to them, or like, you know, no one's as crazy enough to say, like, well, kids are kids and they'll figure it out. That they know is wrong. But no one, it's like something that it's kind of like Riz. You can't teach it, it seems like, and trying to like deconstruct that because I do look at a lot of people as these clean pieces of paper that need to know this. If a kid's gonna have fun, they need to have friends. I think it's that simple. I can't. And so it's like, how are we ensuring that when camper A comes to camp, they will leave with a one, two, three type of friend? And how are we training staff to to prepare for that? So does anyone have any takes on that topic based on the fact that we know young people suck at connecting with each other? And now we're gonna expect them to teach younger people on how to connect with each other?

SPEAKER_02

I feel too that they that all of us now are so much more used to the sarcasm and the the put downs that we don't even see them sometimes. So I don't know if it's becoming more you know aware and pointing out, okay, yeah, that's trash talking when you're playing basketball, but that's not something you should be saying to somebody that you don't know. You know, try pointing that out. Michael's thing that he did on it was actually he always breaks it down and he had really good steps to try to make it apparent to other people that it's actually happening. And that's not the mission of camp normally.

SPEAKER_00

Michael Brownline, by the way. Yes, for new listeners. Sorry out there. And it did he say if it was more prevalent with boys versus girls? Because I tend to think it is. Justin, what do you think?

SPEAKER_04

I don't think I don't think gender plays a fact in this. I think that's girls are mean too. I think that people like are pretending not to notice it because it's just so commonplace, like they they've just become blinded by it. But I also find that it's the fastest way. I mean, there's many people who talk about this before, but like the fastest way to like get school status is to like put someone else down. And it's like so easy to say, like, I can't believe he's wearing that shirt today. Or and there's so many versions of that for everyone to go, ha ha ha, you're so right. Like, yes. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to like this message in real time, basically.

SPEAKER_00

We we had a kid last year at Liberty Lake. He was brand new, started midsummer. He was, I want to say, like, maybe 12 or 13 years old. And he immediately started with that kind of behavior, built up really quickly a lot of social capital amongst like cool kids. And immediately all of the administrators wanted to kick him out of camp. And then when we called his parents, we found out he had a learning disability. You know, it was very, very interesting. But he really played into that game and he sort of knew how to do it. Like he knew how to how to step it up real quick and become uh a little bit.

SPEAKER_04

It sounds like this is a Liberty Lake problem that I'm about to like throw at Andy. I I was not here last year. I have no comment on this situation. But like at Liberty Lake Day Camp and in most schools, when Johnny curses five times, everyone knows what to do with Johnny. When Johnny spends 20 minutes of his time helping Sadie find her necklace that she lost that her grandma gave her, and she does, and he does, no one knows what the hell to do with Johnny. Of like in a good way. And like there, it goes back to like pro-social queuing and all that type of stuff. But it's like, what are the stakes for this kid to be a virtuous, kind human being when he enters Livery Lake Society? Why should that matter? When in society, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't get you all you want in school. And then we come to camp and like say we're gonna give you a cotton ball with googly eyes on it, and you're gonna care about that. You better have a strong culture, especially with this in looming recession when that's gonna get examined. So wrapping back to Janine, is that her name? The lady who spoke it? I think Jean. Jean.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, shean twin.

SPEAKER_04

What should we take away from the fact that our kids are more disconnected and are addicted to video games?

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_01

I think that this also ties into another thing at Coda we heard. Smur Conish did an amazing keynote on the Mingle project and just how that is so lost in today's culture. Like the idea of mingling and having conversations, like just not knowing how to go about it. I think combining what I took away from those two keynotes and also personally my background with speech language pathology, like I ran conversation clubs for kids with autism. And we focused a lot on specific skills to teach kids. Like I did a full bit on what's interesting and what's not interesting, and people get like certain amounts of likes or like what's interesting to one person might not be to the next, or how you share a conversation, those types of skills. I find myself with our staff training inserting a lot of that directly into our training, or in even differences sessions that we do at Robinhood with some of our groups that are struggling with the things you're bringing up to really explicitly teach those things because what's happening is they're not learning it anywhere else. And yeah, it's very niche that we take that on as a camp to kind of teach them those skills. But I think that's what builds to the culture that we have of we're so committed to instilling that in our campers and our staff. And so sometimes veering away from those classic camp training modules and saying, okay, no, let's take a minute to really teach some social skills because they don't have them. So we need to spend some more time. And whether that's doing that yourself with people on your team or bringing in some outside people with that specialty, I think, I think it's valuable.

SPEAKER_04

What's one of your favorite ways to teach social skills?

SPEAKER_01

To favorite ways to teach social skills. Uh, I think small groups and really doing some explicit training on how to have conversations, like how to start conversations and end conversations, and then just doing some practice and not doing it in like a gimmicky way of like here's how you have a conversation, but just like some real-time scenarios, but being explicit about like at camp, here's how you start a conversation. You can go up to someone and just give them a high five and it can start like that. So I think using real life camp examples.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, what she's saying is we need to go one-on-one a lot more, right? Get better at the basics before we start getting next next level. It's another thing we're trying to do at Liberty Lake is sort of strip down things and get to the roots of things. And and like I was saying about Sam going to Lydia's session about neurodiverse kids and all that kind of stuff. It's it's the same concepts. It it really is the same concepts.

SPEAKER_04

I would go to like rule zero in this is like where are the rules of like the space? And like I was at, I will not put the camp on blast, but you know who you are. I was at a camp doing a staff training, and it was the first staff training for the camp. And I show up and they have a no-phone policy at their camp. But I don't really know if people who are new at this new staff training know that about this camp yet, because they're new and like maybe they found out in the interview, but that could have been in like February, whatever. So they show up, and this one of the directors just starts screaming at the staff. She's like, What in the first phone? And I'm just like, oh my god, this is like so uncomfortable. Like for like me do while this person like has no idea what's going on, doesn't know the rules of the space, or like how and you expect them to just like show up, know to put their phone away, start chatting up all these different people, which they don't do in real life anyway, and the phone is a defense mechanism. I'll be honest, I walked in the gym today. There was someone I knew, I didn't have time. I just took out my phone, pretend to look at something, so I could blow right by them. It's so useful to do that, okay? And it's like, can you just expect it to all work out? And it's like you gotta label that at the start and be like, hey, we're gonna all put our phones down, send that last text to the person who's gonna pick you up. I actually have a poster of my phone number, and I make them all add my phone number to their contacts, and then they put their phone away, and then we start staff training to frame these are the rules. We don't use our phone, and we start mingling and doing, you know, whatever this smirkanish fella said to do. But I love it. I want to just quickly talk about something. Uh I want to wrap this into something that someone else sent me about with eggshell topics. Who talked about eggshell topics?

SPEAKER_01

Dr. G talked about all the eggshell topics.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

She's Dr. G, she's been on the pod, right? Many times. Many, okay, long time, long time listener, long time guest, Dr. G. Shout out Dr. G. How are we training staff on how to handle awkward conversations?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's such a hard thing that a lot of camp directors fully avoid because it's like, you know, I don't even know how to bring that up to you. And we just say things like, oh, yeah, go get your supervisor. But then it's like, what's the supervisor going to do about the eggshell topics? Like when people are bringing up like sex and relationships and doing things outside of camp or disclosing other things to their staff members, it puts them in really tricky positions. And Dr. G had a lot of good recommendations about equipping our staff with language that they can use with the kids to kind of maintain their trust and also point them in the right direction and how to kind of curb those conversations. I know last year at Robinhood, like we had those situations with our older, our staff were so amazing in those older units that the we found that the campers were just like opening up about a lot. And the staff felt so bad that they couldn't like dig into that more and they were struggling. And so we had to have a really important conversation of how to navigate that. I think what that taught me is that we have to start earlier and we have to name it and label it and talk about what to expect and like what the steps are with all of that. Excellent. So thank you, Dr. G.

SPEAKER_04

You want to pile on to that AP? What would you say to an 18-year-old staff member who came up to you and said, Sally's really upset because Sally's aunt died yesterday and she's having a hard day at camp and just told me that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, whether I'm the director or the unit leader or whatever, I I would want to talk to Sally and have that counselor be with me so that they could sort of see that it's not it's not the hardest thing in the world. That that you know how to be empathetic and how to I I want to model it for that counselor as opposed to just giving her words and sending her back because it is hard. And and the more you do it, the better you get, plain and simple. And I think that's the hard part, right? These people are just inexperienced and they've they're not used to a kid said an N-word, the kid did this, kid did that, like there's all these these things that it's the first time they've ever encountered it. And and it's you know, we've learned from Gene Twenge and all these other people, like they're really unsure of themselves and they don't want to make a mistake, you know, because they're just gonna be texted all over the place, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

And it but it is it is that performance anxiety too. Like I think that our staff aren't aren't comfortable to say, hey, I appreciate you being curious about this, but I can't talk to you about this right now. And we need to give our staff like permission to say that and talk about like when to say that. But boundaries are so hard, especially for the people that are like putting the boundaries in place, I think.

SPEAKER_02

We had a little boy who lost his dad, and one of my counselors had lost his dad the year before. And I just asked him, I said, Are you comfortable with him and your group? You know, is that gonna be too hard for you if he brings up his dad? Are you gonna be able to talk to him with within sensible boundaries? And it it actually ended up being amazing for both of them. They both it turned out really well. But if you're gonna put them in a sensitive situation that maybe they've gone through, you have to ask permission first because you know that's their boundaries too. So right.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the only thing that I've been good at with this, with training staff, is to where they're drawing a line and that this is something that they need to talk about at home with their parents, you know, like in regards to sex and drugs and things like that, and getting staff to not be so empathetic that they want to talk to them about those subjects at camp.

SPEAKER_04

That's not that a big issue is that staff like take too much ownership of the situation. Yeah. And are like, I have to stand in front of this train and it can only hit me because like this is my kid, and they start like saying those types of things. And I don't know if any of these coda people talk about why people are so possessive over this. I maybe I maybe this is my lack of not being 50 here to say that this wasn't the game from the 90s. I was looking at my father, I was looking at the the dog there. I was like, and I appreciate being called 50 at this moment. Yeah, sorry. But that I just I find like I I have a lot of conversations with 16-year-olds about like, no, I need to know this like three hours ago. Like, what are you talking about that this happened? And so, yeah, but all right, I want to move on. I want to talk about I kind of want to go 3,000 foot V here and uh stop talking about specific people and kind of loop.

SPEAKER_00

About the enrollment cliff already.

SPEAKER_02

Can we just yeah, well that that's that's before we switch?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

When you were talking about staff training, Kim Acock had a really good idea about the very first day, the ones who come late, and about not embarrassing them in front of everybody in the middle of you just started Kim training. So she said to leave a staff member outside the door. And as the late people get there, have them group them together and say, not, you know, why are you late? Blah, blah, blah. But this is what can we do tomorrow to make sure that you're here on time? You know, what can you do? I mean, let's think about this. Why, what's going on? Was it the location? Was it the, you know, and have them solve it for themselves. And it puts responsibility back on them. Hey, I've got to change my behavior and I know how I can do it. And they're not embarrassed. And then they can come in on the break on time. How late, how late were people hypothetically in this situation? Five minutes to uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

There's no way at a Liberty Lake Day camp would I ever do something like that. That is like incredibly confrontational for no reason. And that person's probably already panicked on their first day of work about being stressed out, about being insaturating. I wouldn't go.

SPEAKER_02

What are we gonna do differently next time? But just doing it like not in the room, in a different at you know, outside.

SPEAKER_04

That conversation with a 16-year-old on the first day of like, hey, now go sit down for four hours and listen to me. Yeah, like that is a that is a lot. I I disagree. Not not because I'm just trying to be argumentative, that's just not my style.

SPEAKER_02

But most people would call it out as they walk in the room and embarrass them right there.

SPEAKER_04

That's not all directors, yeah. But those old camp directors do it off on being a jerk in a moment like that because you shouldn't do that. That's not that's not leaving with cool. Yeah, that's just being a jerk.

SPEAKER_00

So I would think a fire room is such an example at that point. Like that should be a great opportunity.

SPEAKER_04

Nikki Mouse over here, Mr. Note Guy all the time. Just joking.

SPEAKER_02

She also did one other thing with the phones. She had the very first thing that they did be with their phone, like you did, and then they put them down. Perfect. Look at this. Perfect.

SPEAKER_04

We can all see differently and similarly at the same time. And that is how we get the country back together. Now I want to talk about the enrollment clips. Justin for president. Yeah, Justin for President and the Canadian endorsing. That's how it works. Let's say, let's say our enrollment drops like 20% over the next three years, right? Just like as our own camps, what would you probably blame first for why that happens outside the fact that there's just less kids? Because I think that where I just want to mention one thing that was really unique about Everwood's growth in the last three years was from 23 to 24, it was a little new kid, it was a little retention-y, but from 24 to 25, it was really not a lot of new kids, it was more of retention. And I called it like war, like in baseball wins above replacement, which was like week above previously enrolled. And it went from like if a kid was enrolled for four weeks in 23 or 24, it was like now like five to six weeks, and we were hitting a 1.2 per one kid, basically, and it was replacing themselves, so we didn't need new kids as much. And now there's this windfall of new kids because word of mouth is high, and all these other different regions aren't share great marketing, things like that as well. And so I am under the mindset of like camp is not going to be growing as much as like the only way is either extending people's stay or you know, we're all competing for the same pie slices of kids, and it's just going to get a little ugly at times when it comes to the amount of marketing dollars we have to spend. So let's just say enrollment drops 20%, and what are we doing differently? What are we blaming? What are we changing? Where's your head immediately jump? Because my bias jumps kind of in like program and staffing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, it's uh I mean, program I think is big because it is a cost-benefit analysis, right? Yes, there may be 20% less kids out there, but you could have more of the potential ones if the value of your camp is seen as, you know, it's so awesome, we gotta send them, right? I mean, we're experiencing that right now at Everwood. Right now, they're sort of riding a wave. It's like a you know, you're surfing this wave that's coming, that's great. The question is what happens when the wave hits the beach and then it's not there anymore. And it it's up to us to provide that value and get people talking about it and get people thinking that this is so essential. And and what we do have working for us right now is that we are human and we are socializing and mingling and all that stuff that kids are not getting in their day-to-day lives because they're so stuck with screens and and the technological world they live in and AI and such. So we we are this AI-proof kind of old school thing, and we need to lean into that, and people are going to want it. The question is, how much are they going to want it? Because it's expensive, also. So it's a cost-benefit analysis that we have we have to push them over the fence by offering something that is just so amazing that they have to do it. That's the challenge.

SPEAKER_01

I think that overall value is like extremely important. I think it's interesting how each camp defines program and kind of what that importance is. I know, I know for us, we've gone through an evolution of like, we've a sports camp, and there's no way that my kiddos at the sports camp are going to, no offense to any of them, going to be like all-star athletes and and all that. Like, that's not what we're teaching them. It doesn't necessarily come down to like those programs enhancing kids' skills to like a great, great extent. We've really focused on the experience at the program, trying something new. How many kids get to canoe in a pond or climb our climbing wall, right? Like those types of things. But really, it's not even those skills. It's like how they're taking risks, right? It's those life skills, they're working together, they're making new friends, all of those skills and the the power of our staff to have that influence with our campers. But I think that, like you're saying, Andy, like camp is a luxury, right? And so it's like how to how do we maintain the value of camp and help our families and our campers see how extremely valuable an experience like that is. I also think that kids won't be coming for as long of sessions at camp going forward. And maybe they're just coming for different parts. But I think if we can really communicate the power and the value of the camp experience to the people that are with us, that's how we keep growing. And I think that a huge drop in that would show that we're not doing the best job we can at really sharing that with our community.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a luxury. We're not daycare anymore because we are to stay in the group.

SPEAKER_04

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Andy, Andy, Andy. You bring up the I hate this defensive posturing that you're about to step into that all these daycam people are doing of everyone's working from home now. And so we don't give it. Shut up. It's on us to build trust and to like break ground and with these families and to get them to stay longer. And I think an area that you both touched on is like, you know, kids can be socially stronger at camp. It's like, how do we measure that so that we are actively training people how to look at that during the summer on a frontline staff, on a middle management many side of things, and then being able to help families tell our story better because they can say, hey, Johnny showed up on Monday, couldn't do this. On Thursday, I'm hearing that Johnny's doing this, and by Friday, I'm looking at next summer's cheap rates because I can buy in now and thinking about it. And that is, I think, where a big part of the storytelling aspect of camp, because this is where I don't think a video yearbook saves you as a camp. I don't think that matters as much. And so I'm I'm way more curious on that and and less concerned about every reason why it's hard.

SPEAKER_02

There are there are camps out there like mine that are government, you know, that are cheap, that are considered, I hate to say that word, daycare, you know, but uh 75% of my kids come all 10 weeks. And then I fill in the others with if there's openings, then they can do you know, buy activity by the week. But we cut out a lot of specialty schedules when we got full. And I, you know, we would end up going back to trying to meet those needs for the families for what they're looking at. You know, if they need three days, they need a punch pass, they need whatever. But in our case, we are not a luxury and we are essential in in a lot of people's existence. So I and I I would like to think my activities are bringing them to the table, but also aware that we're in this situation.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and the only pushback I have on that, Sam, is that like I still think it is a luxury in a sense, because it's like they're picking your specific, like they could go to other programs like that, or they could choose to be busy, like to take off work potentially at a different time to make sure that their kids experience camp for these weeks, for example. So there for sure is that component and it's different across different camps that you you you provide and different services. But I do think that no matter what kind of program you run, you want to sell set yourself apart in a a type of way. And I think, Justin, your point about like helping to tell that story, the storytelling piece is so important. And I think some people are like, oh, it's just marketing. I could just do a blanket thing and that will cover the storytelling. Listen, I've seen the most, like you stock all the websites, I stock all the videos. Like there are some incredible videos, but the ones that stand out are the personalized ones or the ones that are more attuned to like the individual campers and staff. And I think that I know at Robin and like we've had conversations of what does it look like to give updates, personal updates to families about the progress of their kids? We are a very large camp. A lot of the time we get the answers of like, there's no way that can happen. How are we supposed to do that for every kid that we have? Well, I don't love that answer. And we are working through that. And how can we be even more individualized to give those updates? Even a unit general update of this is what your kid was doing might not be good enough as we get more and more competitive and as the enrollment gets a little trickier. So I think thinking about that personalization and telling that story in more personal ways is something that we can all work on. You are a leader of your camp and a pillar in your community. When your customers put tremendous trust in you, Camp Minder's powerful management tool delivers the day-to-day task support that helps you make every moment memorable and every summer stellar. With 20 plus camp-specific tools in one, Camp Minder's user-friendly platform is backed by a full team of engineers who are constantly thinking of ways to help your camp stand the test of time. Visit them today at campminder.com.

SPEAKER_04

We've hired people at Liberty Lake to do that job this summer, and we frankly don't have the money to do it. But it's an investment in the sense of like if it gets four kids, it pays for itself. Like if it can recruit four more kids from people's being able to tell our story and parroting it, which I think is just the goal of something like that. And it's it's a worthy experiment than a billboard, I find. But I think that something that you touched upon with like the video side of things, everyone, oh my god, is like a nuclear arms race for content in the camp industry, and it all looks the same, all look identical. And what I find in like a recession, and I I've been like saying this for a while now with like a bunch of camp professionals, is there's like two types of businesses that survive. There's like the really high-end version of things because the people with money are always gonna be able to afford the thing that costs the most. And then there's like the low end version of something, and what gets squeezed in the middle is like your Chipotle and your like$22 a plate Italian restaurant that's like family owned in the town. They get squeezed because it's like we're gonna go out, we're gonna spend$45 on steak and we're gonna do it once a month, or we're gonna go to McDonald's. We're not gonna go. In the middle. Even McDonald's is struggling. Wendy's just closed 50 restaurants in New Jersey, whatever. So everyone's hurting. It's expensive. And so what I find is like that nice to have that in the middle is what is getting punched out. And that is what I foresee with in-camp is like the camps that fail to tell their story that do an okay job, you know, having a good time and are nice and are fine. Nice is not necessary in a recession. And so, unless you're essential, how do you become essential? I find it to be in our line of work, social transformation. It's like, how do we train people who are struggling in society to then endow skills to younger kids to succeed in society? It just keeps coming back to that. So does anyone have any hot takes on what they could do?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's be better, Justin, you know, and and don't rest on your laurels. But I I know that's not specific, but you know, I think that there's a lot of programs that have just been doing things for a long time and running it back and just tweaking it, you know? And it's it's really looking at things. And and you know, we we spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about how kids are different, staff are different, all that kind of thing. Yet most places just are sort of doing the same thing they did, just a little bit different version of it from 25 years ago. So, so it's it's getting some young blood in there and and figuring out what is really needed given the new, you know, audience and clientele that we have.

SPEAKER_01

And it's gonna resonate with them. And I think one of those things, Andy, that like has come to me is the relationships part. We talk about relationships like all the time, but like I talk with my friends who run overnight camps, and they are going, it's it's a different market, right? And they are going, they're having, they're going to other places, other states, having like get togethers with people from their community, doing that. I wonder if for the day camp community, if we think about adopting things like that to really tell, have more opportunities to tell our story and why what sets us apart and why it's important for their kids to come. I know, Andy, you're always doing tours on site and different things like that. Not all day camps do that. That's a very, in my mind, like overnight-esque kind of way to go about recruiting and marketing. And I think it's so smart. And I think it's something that gets overlooked in the daycamp space often. And we're so good at relationships that it's like, let's do that. I think something else that comes to mind is when we had Rolling River Day Camp on and they talked about bringing people to their site. It's difficult for a lot of us. My site is not winterized, but it got me thinking about can we winterize some spaces? Because people want to have play dates on site. They want to come see what's going on. And that's kind of like a window that we can give people into the kind of experience that we're so proud to deliver.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, a lot of that kind of stuff is, you know, I did when I was a startup camp and you were trying to do everything. And then once you've achieved a level of success, then it's just like, okay, is the bang worth the buck? Is all the time that we have to spend being there all day and all that for three people to come, is it worth it?

SPEAKER_04

You know, do not yearn for the minds. You don't yearn to like grind anymore.

SPEAKER_00

No, justin' I'm working every freaking life.

SPEAKER_04

I'm busting his chops. But this this is a real thing, Andy, is I think that there's a lot of people I love and love everyone over the age of 40. I want to make that clear. I love you all. I love you all. And I've heard from young people, maybe at your camp, but also I've heard from yourself as well. It's hard to have gone through the recession of 07. Grind your ass off. Then COVID happens once you finally get it back together. Grind your ass off. And now there's an enrollment cliff again. Now you gotta grind your ass off. And I get it. And this is war to some degree. And I think that we always talk about how collaborative camp is, and as an industry, we certainly are more than everything, but it's about to get very competitive. And it's like, what are you afraid to change? And why are you afraid to change it? It's going to be very apparent in a year if you didn't think it was good. Because I don't think that there's a lot of time to be patient. And so I think I I mean he's a friend, so I don't feel as bad like trying to throw him around the bus here, but like Jack likes to post on LinkedIn and send long-form emails to his families. I would never do that. That is not something that I think necessarily gonna work, but he's taking a swing because he's trying to get more kids to camp. And it's like you've got to be doing something if you're doing nothing and sitting on your hands and going, Well, it's all gonna just work out because I'm me and I'm super lucky. It's like that's a crazy strategy. And I hope we're in the same zip code. That would be a crazy show.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, well, I mean, you've got to be swinging.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you gotta be swinging.

SPEAKER_02

We had some good podcasts earlier this year with people that were talking about going into the school districts, doing building a relationship with their community and being visible everywhere to you know get those new customers.

SPEAKER_01

So and I think it's so good. And thank you, Justin, for kind of illuminating that and hitting us over the head with just this reality check of like, don't stop swinging, let's get after it. And I think as a person that you don't hate over 40, I I I hate no one. I think that Andy's perspective, because there's such a range of camp directors and ages of camp directors, and yes, people like Andy, and I know for my parents and other directors I know have been through it. Like there has been thing and thing, again, that you guys have been faced with and overcome and worked really hard. And I think that his version of swinging, if I could use this example, is opening himself up to allowing young people to take opportunities to swing on his behalf and with him. And I know for me, like I'm super grateful for for my parents for allowing me to do that because I know that that's not easy either for people who have been as entrepreneurial as all everybody has been in establishing these things and then saying, you know what? Let's how how can I have some new people and new perspectives in there? And I don't think that's super easy. I don't think I would have such an easy time with it as I get older. But I think that's a version of swingy. And so I would encourage more people to do that as well and be open to bringing new faces and and really strong children, like like Justin and I, in to kind of help with that if you have them. And and but that takes a lot of of courage as well. And so I think that's a version of swinging that people should be open to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, it's true. And I I've been through a few of these, you know, ups and downs. And the default setting for most camp people is it'll come back. Don't worry. You know, everything's like a pendulum, you know, it'll come back kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04

But the world evolves, it just one of the coolest experiences that I got to have while in Massachusetts at Everwood was playing with all the kids like consistently in 23, 24, and 25. I had like real time where I had to play with kids of all ages. And I mean, you talk to a ninth grader in 2023 versus 2025, they're just different. Like kids are evolving faster and they're bringing real issues. The staff are struggling with feedback differently, neurodiversity is more mainstream each and every year, demographic shift, the technology reshaping human skills, humor is harsher. I'm not trying to bundle everything we've talked about, but where I'm going with it is like the game is different. And if you are playing chess, I think it's not even chess anymore. You need to get young people in the room. And like, if you don't have a Nepo baby that you created like Frankenstein's monster, like maybe the Gross Singers and the Predicans did in their case, which is a really interesting small business model. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_02

You gotta add me in there too. I've got my daughter coming in. Sam's been now too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Read for three here. Let's go. And so there's like the fun part about Liberty Lake is I show up and there's all these people who just love Camp who are young. But I've gotten to talk to you. And that's been the best part of this job so far is like meeting these 20-year-olds who just love camp and see it from the 20-year-old's perspective who loves camp. And to quote Jess Britteken, who if you've never met my sister, she's a barrel of laughs. When asked why she doesn't watch the news at Christmas, she says, Well, I can have my own creative thoughts. I don't need to see how horrible the world is, which is a very brave and stunning statement. But where it comes back to this is like it's really hard for these young people sometimes to have these creative thoughts. And they need the older person who's maybe seen some stuff to push them. And but you can tell them, hey, I want kids to have more fun in this space doing this type of thing. What are your ideas? And when they say, I don't know, and be like, yeah, I don't know too. But what can we do to try to solve that? And then they're gonna say S chat GPT. And that's not the worst answer. What young people I find to be incredibly motivated by is like an eat what you kill kind of model. And it's like if you come up with five different ways to do this and you send it to me, I will pay you$20 instead of paying them hourly. I find it to be way more successful because I don't know if this person I could have talked about, but young people also can't really focus for that long. And so the hourly rate isn't always the best when you're telling them to be creative and they don't know how to be. So I recommend it's task-based, less, give them a certain amount of time. So, Andy, what advice do you have for camp professionals who are struggling with enrollment right now and have just been told that it's only gonna get worse?

SPEAKER_00

To not think it's just gonna just get better. We're going to go through a uh a patch coming up. Birth rate used 20 years ago was 3.5 per family. It is now 1.6 in the United States, and the replacement rate is 2.1. So we're not even replacing people right now. So it we're we're in an interesting time and and it, you know, evolve or die, right? It's just like you have to you have to think about how to make things better and do things differently. And and yes, the formula of camp is great. We got these great eager people working with these happy, eager kids, right? Like the concept is so and there's no doubt about it. And it's not going to change that much because that is gonna become more and more unique to what people need anyway, and and different from what people's day-to-day is. So a lot of it is the storytelling, Justin. I'm glad you hit on that. That is so, so awesome and true. So we have to be able to we have to get better at telling people what we do, and it can't be the magic of camp and crap like that. It has to be, you know, well, I wrote it down here. Kids can be socially stronger at camp, things like that, and expounding on that. So that is my advice. Jordan, pass the torch.

SPEAKER_04

Bestow, bestow some wisdom on us for the the person who's like, oh my God, we're down 10% already.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think it's scary. And so I always start with like, okay, take a breath, right? Like, there's gonna be so many ideas that come to you. And like, even in this podcast, we've talked about a billion things, and like there's gonna be a lot you want to do. And like you are in the driver's seat, but you can always lean on other people to help as well and float around some ideas. But I think you started this by asking, like, what would you blame if like the numbers drop? And I think this is when you rise up, right? And you have to take full ownership of getting those numbers back up and really coming up with actionable steps because I know for all of us, we want to give young people jobs, right? And the first thing that comes to my mind when like number camper numbers go down is like, we're at a position where staffing is actually so high, like the interest in staff positions are so high. And it's heartbreaking that I'm like, you know, I don't have that many positions because some cabins are closing. So I actually don't have as many staff positions as I maybe wanted to. So it's really like turning it into actionable steps that you're going to do. And I think going back to basics of relationships and reach outs and you got to take risks in that, in that regard too. And they might not, they shouldn't be monetary when money is so challenging at times, but I think putting yourself out there is something that you can do. And so taking those risks would be appropriate for right now.

SPEAKER_02

I think all of us had somebody when we were coming up who gave us a chance and let us put our ideas out there, no matter what age you are. And we forget about that when it's our turn to be the one to let the people under us have their chance and use their ideas and come up. So, you know, now's the time to be the mentor for those people who are going to be the future. So don't hold on to control.

SPEAKER_04

If I was gonna give any advice, it would be to get your head out of camp for as much as you can and see what's happening in the world. Because I think there's some really interesting maneuvering that companies and some little strategic people are doing to make this happen. I've taken a lot of inspiration from like wellness clubs and even like med spas with like how they're engaging with their communities to enhance the well-being, as they like to say, of everyone, which is what we're trying to do as camps. And it has been a lot of fun to be challenged to build community from scratch here at Liberty Lake, as myself, of like being this like there's only 17 people that worked here when I was last year out of 350. Like, I don't know anyone who's here, and like having to like start over again, but you just have to put yourself out there and take risks, and you can't complain about stuff you never did. So I'll stop that is that is my biggest pet peeve when I have to go to these conferences is people people complain. But yeah, and oh Jordan, you touched on something that when we're still here on the day campfire 15 years, and Andy's like implored meeting with us. Yeah, this is my pitch. In 15 years, we're gonna be talking about how there's a recruiting crisis because there was no babies and now they're all old enough to be staff at our camps, and we have no and we have no staff, and we're gonna have kids again, and it's gonna be a whole it's just I see it now. I just see those cycle and the cycle, and we're gonna have to come up with weird ways to scrape the internet. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

At that point, Matt Kaufman will have an army of robots that you'll be soon. You'll be able to just buy some robots and throw them in there, be art teachers and things like that.

SPEAKER_04

Andy, give us give us two minutes on Matt Kaufman's AI session that you went to that you found very illuminating.

SPEAKER_00

Two minutes. You know, Matt basically is has has tasked himself in his organization to figure out for people what are the things that they are spending a lot of time on that they wish they didn't have to. And and he talks to them and he and these people and he forces them to go step by step through. Okay, first I do that, I take this phone call, I take this email, then I put it in here, and then I move it to, and all this kind of thing. And then he's using AI to create apps to do it for them. And he's saving, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of hours across the board for his team. We're talking about checking medical records, we're talking about compiling personal information for kids to then disseminate out. We're talking about inventory, we're talking about a lot of operational things for sure. You know, uh being able to figure out, you know, putting an address in and knowing what the closest bus stop is and how many, how many steps away or or is the closest drive. You know, and also what you know, Matt, he's very intentional, right? And he spends an hour a day learning about AI. We should plug his AI thing. Was it I LoveCamp? I gotta look that up.

SPEAKER_04

I'll Andy's gonna look it up. I'm just I'm just gonna go.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna put Matt's thing in the show notes, right? But Matt he he is he is sharing this information openly. He shared it at the Mori Stein conference, he shared it at Coda, and he's sharing it again at Tri-State. And we appreciate you, Matt. And uh, and he's got a new book, and we're gonna put the link to that too. All right.

SPEAKER_04

Andy loves Matt Kaufman more than his own son. What he's he's not wrong about is like there there's going to be layoffs at some point. And in and I hate to be the bringer of bad news here. One, it is cheaper to hire a 24-year-old who loves camp full-time than typically is hire someone who's older than 24. Shout out hiring young people, giving them their first job in the industry, and replacing people with AI is is coming. I know another camp director who's having all of his staff build out like AI versions of themselves that they can manage, not to replace themselves, but like to automate so that they can focus on doing the things that only people can do more of and being more in touch with their community to get ahead of this curve. And so a lot of people doing some really creative things there, but it it's moving at warp speed. So what you learn this month is updated in a year for sure. So time, time, time, time, time. And someone want to close this out, someone want to make everyone feel a little bit better. Not that we said in on a Debbie Downer, but I said we're gonna fire a bunch of people.

SPEAKER_00

Growth mindset, okay? Growth mindset, baby, right? We can always be better. That's why we listen to these things. And anybody that made it to the end of this hour on this podcast, they really give a crap. So shout out to those folks, right? And I want to thank our GoCamp Pro team, Travis and Matt and editor Rachel. I want to thank AM Skyer and Camp Miner, Camptivities, and Commercial Recreation Specialists for allowing us to bring this podcast view. And I want to thank our our I get call him our guest host today, Justin Pritiken. All right. And you can contact him and me and Sam in our show notes at Daycamp Podcast.com. Jordana, but not Jordana, apparently. Oh my god, Jordana.

SPEAKER_01

You can contact me twice. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. She might be the smartest. So yeah. So thanks for listening and making yourself a better Daycamp Pro. We'll be back in a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_03

The Daycamp Podcast is brought to you by GoCamp Pro and the GoCamp Pro Podcast Network. Find a podcast for camp professionals of every age and stage at gocamp.pro slash podcast. Thanks for listening, friends. Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.