Parenting Decoded
Parenting Decoded
72 - Why Won't You Sleep: A Plan for Exhausted Parents of Nonstop Kids
Parenting Decoded welcomes McCall Gordon to tackle one of parenting’s toughest questions: Why won’t my kid sleep? Her book is aimed at parents of "livewires" — kids who are more alert, intense, and emotionally reactive than average, making traditional sleep advice ineffective.
McCall explains that temperament plays a huge role in sleep struggles — some kids just have a harder time winding down. These children are perceptive, persistent, and often lack typical “sleepy cues” like yawning. Instead, they need more support and a customized sleep strategy.
She encourages parents to stop blaming themselves. These kids aren’t “bad” sleepers — they’re wired differently. The solution? A gradual, step-by-step approach to bedtime routines, not the cold-turkey methods like “cry it out,” which often backfire for sensitive kids.
McCall’s key advice:
- Understand your child’s temperament
- Taper off bedtime habits gradually
- Use consistent patterns at bedtime and during night wakings
- Think of it like teaching a child to ride a bike — slowly let go while supporting them
She also emphasizes ruling out medical issues for frequent night wakings, especially in infants or kids who snore.
The bottom line: You’re not crazy, and it’s not your fault — you just need a different roadmap.
Link to the book on Amazon: Why Won't You Sleep?
Link to the Audible book: Why Won't You Sleep?
Email me at info@parentingdecoded.com or go to my website at www.parentingdecoded.com.
Have a blessed rest of your day!
Welcome to Parenting Decoded, a podcast for practical approaches to parenting. I'm Mary Eshin. Today we're diving into a question that has haunted parents since the dawn of diapers why won't you sleep? Joining us today is a researcher and certified bringer of relief, mccall Gordon, author of the fantastic new book why Won't you Sleep?
Mary Eschen:This isn't your typical just put on your child drowsy but awake, kind of sleep advice.
Mary Eschen:Oh no, this book is for parents of kids who treat bedtime like a WWE Smackdown, who wake up the second you breathe wrong and who make you question your life choices at two in the morning, while Googling is coffee, a food group. Mccall brings research, empathy and just the right amount of you're not crazy, your kid's just intense to the conversation. We'll talk about what makes these little live wires harder to settle, why conventional sleep advice might be missing the mark, and how you can stop blaming yourself for things you never had control over in the first place. So if you're sleep-deprived, delirious and currently listening in the dark with one AirPod in while sitting next to your child's bed as they won't sleep, this is for you. Welcome, mccall, I'm so happy to have you on the show. I can't wait to talk to you about sleep and sleep deprivation and what the heck to do when you have a kid that just tires you out and you have so many great ideas. Tell me a little bit about LiveWires and what you do.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. Because I always say the dividing line between kids who sleep well and easily and those who don't is temperament. Everyone has friends who have those kids that just sleep and everybody thinks it's because they've done some magical thing or they've done some method that worked great and like. Then they always think what am I doing wrong? And I always tell them it's not you, it's you just have a different kid, you have a harder child, you have a harder, steeper hill to climb. And that's temperament.
Macall Gordon:Usually parents have a kid who came into the world a little bit more challenging. Right, they are kids who are more alert, they're more intense, and that doesn't mean like negatively I've got to come up with a different word than intense. So it's usually they just everything's a big deal Happy, sad, surprised, everything is a big deal. It's just the volume on feelings is turned up. Volume on feelings is turned up. Let me I should just go through the things people say, because that usually resonates more. So people will say go zero to a hundred if I don't get to them fast. So big feelings that happen fast. A bad case of FOMO. So fear of missing out. My kid will not take a nap because she's afraid she'll miss something. Not easy to get to sleep because they don't seem like they want to sleep. Often needs to be bounced on a yoga ball to go to sleep, so needs a lot of like help to go to sleep. They don't just drift off like some kids that I've heard about, because I didn't have these children.
Mary Eschen:So yeah, I used to have to rock my older one to sleep. Yeah Well, yeah, like in the car seat, we would just swing it. Oh, swinging like vigorous.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, yeah, but with our arm, not in a swing.
Macall Gordon:Yeah for sure. Yeah, yeah, you feel like a crazy person. I've heard some stories. Believe me, I had one family that needed to like walk or jog, even on a treadmill, like the baby needed, like this massive input to go to sleep.
Macall Gordon:Perceptive doesn't miss a thing. They'll say, oh, she does not miss a thing. Persistent never gives up, ever, ever, ever. And sometimes you see these qualities from very, very, very tiny babies. I just talked to parents of a nine-week-old nine weeks and some of these qualities were already showing up. These are not things that parents create in their kids. These are qualities that happen sometimes right away at birth. Parents will already know something's up. Sleep problems do not go away and often these parents have problems not because they haven't tried stuff right. These parents have tried stuff and it's just not working. But nobody ever tells them hey, it's not your fault. And that's kind of what I'm hoping this book really does for them, is it says this is not your fault, you just have a different brand of kiddo that needs a different mindset and a really different approach.
Mary Eschen:Well, in reading the book, I was really happy to see you and your co-author take the time to talk about different kinds of temperament too. It's not just the kid that is overly emotional. There's kids that might not is overly emotional. There's all. There's kids that might not be overly emotional, but they're. They're intense in a way of like noticing everything and you know, like you don't pull that one type of intense kid live wire, as you call them into one bucket there's lots of buckets and it's so fun to have read like Ooh yeah, what kind of bucket is my kid and you?
Mary Eschen:have so many ideas of like. Oh, that's my kid. And it might be if they have multiple kids, their kid could be in a different section, or something like that.
Macall Gordon:Oh heck yeah, yeah, in fact the book has a downloadable workbook and in there is a temperament quiz with a map that I'm actually pretty proud of. That's a circle with the traits on the outside of the circle. So instead of a bucket which is a good word for it, but it's like a shape, so you kind of plot it so it looks like a shape because your kid may not be so intense but maybe really say observant. So there are some kids that I call outies. They go out, they go out to the world, right, they go toward experiences, so probably more extroverts. Let's just say that there are kids who are intense, but they are more probably introverted, they're more cautious, they watch the world, they hang back, they're still intense, but they're just intense in a different way. Kids are still live wires, they just roll a little differently and they all still need a different approach because they're all still sensitive. They have sensory processing sensitivities that really need to be accounted for when it comes to sleep, because all of that impacts sleep, all of it it impacts sleep dramatically and I should say that when it comes to sleep, we have to think about what it takes to fall asleep. Right, I say I call it the sleep system, and what that means is we have to know we're sleepy number one. We have to feel sleepy, then we have to be willing to feel that feeling and turn away from the world, and then we have to be able to fall asleep. Well, these kids who are so busy number one and so into the world, they don't get that memo from the brain that they're tired, they just don't. I don't know if the signal is not as strong or if they just don't tune into the signal, but they just do not have sleepy signals. They don't yawn, they don't rub their eyes. Parents are waiting for those signals and they do not come.
Macall Gordon:I say 10 months. I don't remember. Actually, amnesia, I would watch David Letterman come on and go off. Now, for all of you out there who don't remember when David Letterman came on, it was after Johnny Carson, so I think it was like she was not fussy, she was not cranky, she was going strong. And I felt crazy because I thought this isn't how it's supposed to be. Something's really wrong with me. I don't think I'm supposed to be up at one o'clock in the morning with a baby who is not sleepy. So what I didn't know is that she had probably been a little tired hours and hours and hours before, but I missed the teeny little window that she probably was a little bit fatigued but just didn't show it to me right.
Macall Gordon:So they don't get the memo that they're tired, they don't know how to turn toward that feeling again because they're so busy, and then their sensory sensitivities or their overtiredness also prevents them from easily falling asleep. So all of that requires a lot more help, a lot more vigilance on parents' part and a lot more knowledge, because you have to know what to look for and how to navigate all that. So they just need a whole different road map, honestly, to help them navigate that tricky path to sleep, because other kids will yawn, Other kids will go and they'll lie down, they'll go to sleep.
Macall Gordon:It's so easy, but it's just not for these kids.
Mary Eschen:Well, and most of the audience that listens to my podcast. They have like maybe a two-year-old, but certainly more like through five years old or whatever, and not necessarily newborns, but they're still being driven crazy. Their kids are wanting to co-sleep with them at night. I remember sitting in my son's room when he was three and four years old five years old and it's like he didn't want me to leave until I was asleep and everything. And I loved how you pointed out like it wasn't really helpful and it's like it wasn't.
Mary Eschen:He is a grown individual and he's fine.
Macall Gordon:But I was like that's really hard, because.
Mary Eschen:I just want some free time.
Macall Gordon:I'm just going crazy. Yeah. Well, what happens to parents with these kids is that you get really thrown off, obviously for obvious reasons. First of all, it is not what you expect, it is not what you see other people experiencing, and it's way more exhausting. I mean, that is just no lie. Parents of these kids are working way harder, way harder, because it's just taking more thought, more self-examination, more research, more everything because it's just not like what you thought it was going to be. More everything because it's just not like what you thought it was going to be. Plus, these kids just really keep you on your toes really 24 hours a day, because, again, they're not sleeping right, so you're working around the clock and there's generally more meltdowns. These kids just have a lot more difficulty with regulation as well. So it's a lot Because they're tired?
Macall Gordon:Yeah, they're tired, but they're a lot more. They have a lot more emotional. I call them live wires because they have a lot more emotional current running through their system. Their little circuits blow a lot more easily. So parents are having to just manage a lot. Parents get wiped out and then you end up sort of giving in to things simply because you're wiped out. And when they're three and four years old and they're also, I have to say, these kids are quite bright. These kids really understand how to game the system Well and you said they're so observant, they're so observant, I mean bless their hearts.
Macall Gordon:They can see that when their parents are weak.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, and we are weak because we're exhausted. It really is a system where literally no one's at fault. And listen, when I work with parents, the whole first part of our meeting is me patching the parents back up, because they really feel like roadkill. They really feel like they have screwed it all up and I have to let them know they absolutely have not. They have responded to the kid they have and they have a hard. They have a really challenging situation because this kid is smart and they have very big feelings. So we have to get everybody patched up. So, with older kids who have a, you know, want the parent in the room or parents lying with them for an hour and a half, we have to help the parents pick some battles. And then I always say rein in the shenanigans and lock it down. So we have everybody get a plan and we start tapering and this works. By the way, this is a good tip we're going to fold in a tip.
Macall Gordon:The tip for everyone is pick your battles, but fight the ones you pick and then taper off whatever it is you're currently doing in a gradual, methodical way. That is really sleep training in a nutshell. You don't have to do cold turkey, which does not work for these kids. You don't have to leave the room. That does not work for these kids. But you can taper it off in a gradual, methodical way. They're not going to love it. But if you're just tapering, we're gradually scaffolding their ability to tolerate it.
Macall Gordon:So if you're lying down fully with your body next to your four-year-old, sit up in the bed. They can handle that. Then in a few days, sit next to the bed. They can handle that. Let them know you're going to do it. Don't surprise them, but just gradually pick that battle and get going. Just do it. You know, we got to just gradually push them without blowing anybody out of the water. This is the problem with the current sleep training situation is the only option parents are given is to leave the room, and that does not work for these kids. Generally, I will say generally, it doesn't work because what you're doing is you're saying, oh, if you let them cry, they'll figure it out. These kids do not figure it out. These kids go straight to hysterical and then they cannot. They don't have the ability to calm themselves down, right, other mellow kids will go, will cry, cry, cry and then go. Ok, whatever.
Mary Eschen:And they'll go to sleep. I'm tired.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, it's not worth it. Right, they'll do that. These kids cannot do that. They'll just keep going. We know that. Right, I'm sure there are parents listening who go yep, tried it Three hours later, didn't work right.
Mary Eschen:The other point that hit home for me was parents who let their kids fall asleep with them in the room and then they leave. We finally get a little hour or two on our own, and then at two in the morning they wake up and they're like where's mom and dad?
Mary Eschen:And then they have a big meltdown in the middle of the night. I'm like, oh yeah, so if you do train them, meaning whatever we are doing is training them like mom's going to stay in the room in order for me to go to sleep, I become part of the training of the pattern. I just never had anybody point that out so obviously. To me it's like oh, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we all know that we were part of the pattern, but, like I don't have any choices.
Mary Eschen:Yeah, you can't ask Helps, move people towards like right. There are some solutions.
Macall Gordon:Well, in that, in the information that's out there this is another sort of thing I'm trying to change is this the information that's out there is so shamey, right, so bad habits and sleep crutches, and it's just so. The language is so terrible. Look, it's just, it is just a pattern. It's just a pattern. We can change patterns. It's not a big deal. But whatever you're doing at bedtime, that's the template for how kids think sleep happens. Mom is somebody's lying with me and I go to sleep. So when I wake up, I need somebody to be lying with me in order to go back to sleep. It's like a little. I call it the breadcrumb trail to sleep. That's how I get to sleep. So you can't ask a kid to do in the middle of the night what they're not doing at bedtime. That's why we say if you're going to sit up in the bed, then when they wake up at night, go sit up in the bed. Then. If you're sitting beside the bed in the middle of the night, go sit beside the bed Now. Eventually, hopefully, you'll be sitting out in the hallway and then pretty soon you won't sit there anymore. It's a process, but it's.
Macall Gordon:My favorite analogy is it's like how you would teach a kid to ride a bike. This is my favorite one. We don't give a kid a bike and say good luck, kid, I'll be in the house, I can't help you, or you'll never learn. No, we first give them training wheels and then we take the training wheels off and we hold on to the back of the bike for dear life while they get the idea of pedaling and all that. But we're not going to just hold on to the bike, because then they'll never learn how to balance. So we start letting go a teeny bit, so they get that feeling of imbalance, oh my God. And then we grab on again, and then we let go for longer, and then we let go for longer, and then we let go, and then pretty soon they're off and running. That's exactly what sleep needs to be.
Macall Gordon:Exactly they can get the feel of it, and then you you know, you just say you can do it, you can do it, you can do it. You can do it with your presence and your support, but you let them do the work mostly.
Mary Eschen:Yeah, yeah. But I love that that you give parents so many ideas about how to set up the overall plan and how to taper. You know how to start with something small and build on it. I just think it's just such a great resource. I haven't seen that explained so well and I just think that parents I was telling you ahead of time that I met I was giving a seminar this weekend with a dad who has two three-year-old twins and he and his wife are going crazy and I swear he bought the book on Amazon, while we were in class and but it's just like.
Mary Eschen:I mean, he was living proof of being exhausted. Yeah, just exhausted and yeah, not knowing what to do there. He's like I'm sleeping in the guy's room because yeah, but it's like, oh, I don't know, I just yeah, yeah, no, it's bad.
Macall Gordon:I've heard really awful. But and let me also one other little caveat. There are lots of instances where the problems are not behavioral. Let me just say that because I do know, like if I have parents of a baby, say a nine-month-old, and they're like, yeah, my nine-month-old is waking every 45 minutes, okay, folks, that is not a behavioral problem. Every 45 minutes, that is not behavior. Something's wrong, something's physically wrong with that baby.
Macall Gordon:Or if you have a kiddo, a toddler, who's snoring, breathing through their mouth, things like sleepwalking awake in the middle of the night for hours at a time. There are certain issues that are covered in the book, but certain issues that are not behavioral problems. A behavioral problem is like my kid wants me to lie with them as they fall asleep, and then they wake up in the middle of the night and they come into our room. Or they wake up in the middle of the night and I have to go lie with them, but then they go right back to sleep. Okay, that's behavior. Problems that are like way worse, way bigger don't respond to behavioral approaches. That's when we really have to start looking at medical issues obstructed breathing because that's yeah, that's not behavior.
Mary Eschen:Well, that's good to bring into the conversation.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, no kid should be outside of a cold or allergies. Kids should not be snoring or breathing through their mouth when they sleep. That's just a good caveat across the board. That's when you really should go get them looked at by an ENT for adenoids and tonsils.
Mary Eschen:Yeah, or an allergist for allergy related issues yeah, or an allergist for allergy related issues.
Macall Gordon:Um, could be, could be. But I go to an ent. First it's snoring and mouth breathing. That happens quite a bit. I mean there's, I can't even tell you. And then I see a lot of kids with restless leg syndrome. If you have an older kid who's complaining that their legs hurt and they're awake or its sleep problem is just nightmarish, um goodness, if you have a kid somebody's listening right now and your kid has a truly nightmarish Goodness. If you have a kid, if somebody's listening right now and your kid has a truly nightmarish sleep issue, please contact me. I will help you figure it. Know which kind of specialist to work with.
Mary Eschen:Yes, yes, yes yes, that's the hard part for parents when I work with them on a various you know number of issues of like they haven't been parents very long and like it's never happened to me. I didn't have that when I was growing up Like what?
Macall Gordon:where do I turn to?
Macall Gordon:And sometimes a pediatrician might be helpful and sometimes they're usually not, because pediatricians get an average of 15 minutes of training on sleep and so more often than not they will just say sleep train. And sleep training is not the answer for babies who are too young, and it's just not the answer for a lot of issues. If you're not getting the right answers, if your gut is telling you something else is the matter, yeah, feel free. And especially, I have to say, with these intense kids, they're a little like the princess in the pea, you know, remember that story where it was the princess on all the mattresses and it was just a little pea that kept her up all night. That's what these kids are like. So it doesn't take a lot to throw them off and sometimes a little discomfort ear infections, reflux, eczema, huge. Doesn't take a lot of physical discomfort to throw these kids way, way off, and you may need to really address the physical symptoms before you can really touch behavior.
Mary Eschen:Yeah, I have a few of my nieces who've had sleep coaches and they are astounded at how much difference it made in their lives. It's just like it's so cool that you've been a sleep coach for a long time before you wrote this book.
Macall Gordon:You have so much knowledge.
Mary Eschen:It's just like how nice that somebody could guide you through some steps that like oh, if I have a really regular schedule, you know like I can't throw my live wire off, because if I throw my live wire off, it's off. You know, like everything's off.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, and at the same time I do. You know, in the book I'm pretty clear that I don't usually recommend sleep training before six months. I really don't, because baby's development is so fluid, there's really not a lot of good research on sleep training before six months and also, you really don't have to do anything before six months. There's a lot of books out there that recommend all this strenuous work with very young babies and it's just really not necessary or recommended so people can really take a breath. People are stressed about it and you really don't have to stress out. There's a lot of time.
Mary Eschen:There's a lot of time, yeah, well, and in my work that I do, I said most of the parents are they have a two-year-old to you know all the way through high school and they haven't set the patterns like they would have maybe, as they were younger. And a lot of it has to do with just not having exposure to what great resources there are out there.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, yeah, and at the same time, I think too, though, that too much information also can undercut their confidence in themselves. Right, and I think that parents especially in those first few months, parents are so information driven that they don't get to take the time to go. What do I think is the right thing to do? What if I try this, what if I try that? And they really get so worried they're going to screw up their baby. And it's like it's because I talked to a lot of brand new parents and just telling them like hey, you have time to figure yourself out, to figure out your baby. You're not going to ruin your baby by just saying, hey, I wonder, if I try a nap now, what will that do? What if I hold my baby this way? You know it's okay, parenting road is really long.
Mary Eschen:Don't blow yourself out now, yeah. Well and you probably encourage them, like sometimes you set a pattern that you might not like doing forever.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, and you can change it. That's the great thing. You can always change it. Nothing is set in stone. If you make a mistake, you can always change course. It's really that's what parenting is all about Lately. My only big advice is don't use chat GPT for parenting advice.
Mary Eschen:Yikes, yikes, can you imagine what's going to happen 20 years from now?
Macall Gordon:Everyone will just ask Don't use chat GPT, email me you gave us one tip about tapering things.
Mary Eschen:What other tips?
Macall Gordon:do you have Great. So the other one with these kids is I think I sort of quickly mentioned it before but don't wait for them to look tired People. Sort of rest on this idea of like tired people. Sort of rest on this idea of like, oh, my kid is just low sleep needs. Yeah, no, maybe, but don't, don't rest on that. These kids tend to power right on through, kind of get a get a sense of what a wake window is for your child, especially the younger ones, and start with the lower end, because these kids get overtired very easily and then they're on a second wind and then you're just toast. So, really getting them enough sleep during the day and early bedtime, just don't wait for them to look sleepy, because they never, ever, ever, ever will, so that sometimes can just be magic will, so that sometimes can just be magic. Early bedtime, enough sleep. Taper things off. Those were my big ones.
Macall Gordon:And pick your battles. Yeah, consistency, consistency, consistency. And all that means is don't just try something once. Parents get so shell-shocked. They try something once and then they go oh, that's not working, let me try this. Oh, that's not working, let me try this, that's not working. Don't you got to try something. Know that they're going to hate it the first time you do it, that's okay. Try it again, see if it's any better. Maybe try it again, give it three times and really track Did it get at all better before you really ditch it? People expect something to work the first time they try it and that is just not. That's not how it happens. So pick something and really really do it consistently for a few times and track your progress. Yeah.
Mary Eschen:And I think in your workbook you have a tracker.
Macall Gordon:I do yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Mary Eschen:You have a lot of great resources. And one of the things we were talking about before we started was there's an audio version of your book.
Macall Gordon:Yes, yes, on Audible, so you can listen to it as you sit in the dark waiting for your child to go to sleep. Exactly.
Mary Eschen:Exactly, exactly, because that poor young dad I met, I'm going like when will he and his wife ever have time to sit reading a book?
Macall Gordon:It was hard enough for me, and I don't even have kids.
Mary Eschen:No, I know Like making myself sit and read a book, so that's just so hopeful, that and it's in your voice, I'm assuming- it is, I did it. It is, I did it. Yes, excellent, excellent, yeah, well, mccall, thank you for joining me.
Macall Gordon:I really appreciate your advice.
Mary Eschen:I love your book and I will put the links to it in the show notes, as well as to the Audible as well.
Macall Gordon:Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, thank you so much for being with me. Oh, such a pleasure. It was great, thank you.
Mary Eschen:All right. Thanks, audience. We will be back next time. Have a blessed rest of your day.