Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
The Gospel and the Rescue Project (ft. Father John Riccardo)
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Father John Riccardo, from ACTS XXIX, joined Jayce and James ahead of the first Discipleship Conference in the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City. Father Riccardo explained how he presents the Gospel and more.
Father John Riccardo's passionate faith culminated in the founding of Acts XXIX, a transformative ministry that seeks to rekindle the fervor for the Lordship of Jesus and resist the creeping worldliness in the church.
In today's episode, Jayce and James explore Father Ricardo's discernment process and spiritual journey that led to the creation of Acts XXIX and The Rescue Project. This journey, steeped in obedience, has turned into a beacon of hope for many. The Rescue Project, an innovative video experience, has been instrumental in spreading the Gospel. We also delve into the fundamental role of The Rescue Project in the modern-day proclamation of the Gospel.
Their discussion takes an interesting turn as they look at four essential questions that Father Ricardo uses in his teachings. These questions encourage a deeper understanding of our reality and the state of the world from a biblical perspective. The group also explores the power of the Gospel, the concept of rescue, and the role of a missionary.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Welcome to Red Dirt Catholics. We're super excited to have Father John Ricardo on the podcast today. Welcome to Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Great to be in Oklahoma Second time.
Speaker 1:Second time. How did the first time go?
Speaker 2:I was in Tulsa for a wedding.
Speaker 1:For a wedding.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a beautiful time, probably five, six years ago.
Speaker 1:It was hot, then it was hot now. It's hot, as I'll get it. I think tomorrow during the discipleship conference it's supposed to be 108 degrees.
Speaker 2:Can't wait. This is when I want to thank the guy who said pre-shid were black. Good move.
Speaker 1:Speaking of black, we were talking before about your favorite animal. Wow, nice segue I do what I can, and it's the panda. Now, why the panda for you? I mean, there's obviously the black and white similarity.
Speaker 2:It's very clerical, very clerical, I have no idea. So I lived in Washington DC for a set of years, shortly after I was ordained, because the church and politics can feel like a zoo. Sometimes they used to go to the national zoo all the time and there are a couple of pandas at the national zoo in Washington and somehow I just kind of fell in love with watching these things. I got to believe after us it's the favorite animal that God has. They're hysterical. They're like live stuffed animals. They just move around smiling. I have no idea why. They're fascinating. So I've seen almost every panda in the United States.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That's not saying an awful lot, but yeah, which?
Speaker 1:one's your favorite panda.
Speaker 2:I have no idea. I don't know their names. I don't know their names.
Speaker 1:I was just trying to go down see how far the rabbit hole went.
Speaker 2:It doesn't go deep. No, it doesn't go deep.
Speaker 1:Maybe you knew all their names and followed them all on Instagram or something like that. No, I haven't done any of that.
Speaker 3:Wait, do pandas have Instagram accounts?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm certain that they probably do. I'm out of touch.
Speaker 3:Doesn't everybody.
Speaker 1:My friend's cat has a TikTok. There has to be one for a panda.
Speaker 3:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Which is pretty funny I really like. So Turtles is the official number one in my mind, but I've been watching some documentaries about orcas killer whales recently and I really loved the Free Willy movies growing up. Those were a staple of my childhood, so those are a really strong number two. But I really love the orcas as far as their personalities and communication skills and how gentle they can be with humans and different things, but ultimately how ferocious predators they are. It's fascinating.
Speaker 2:So apparently, if you're doing a seating for the final four of animals, it's Grizzly Bear one and then it's either Lion or Hippo two and three. There was a. I don't know if you guys saw this crazy story about a couple of wrestlers in Montana. I read that article.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, where they got mulled by the Grizzlies and they both survived.
Speaker 2:Did you see that? This is an unbelievable story? A friendship, these two guys who, like I'm going to butch at the story, I'm sure because I've only read it once. But these two guys wrestled together at some small school, I think, in Montana, and they'd only know each other for a couple of months and they went hiking one day and they were with a couple of the guys on the team that got separated. So it was just these two guys and, sure enough, one guy.
Speaker 2:He steps in like some pretty significant bear scat and he's like uh-oh, and he turns around and there's this huge Grizzly right there and the Grizzly just slaps him and apparently the guy went flying like 30 yards. And then the other guy's watching this and the Grizzly starts chasing after the first guy and he starts dribbling him down the mountain is how he described it and he just, like you know, obviously passes out. The other guy is realizing I got a choice here. I can either run for it, get out of here and save my life, or I can try to save my friend. So he runs and jumps on the back of the Grizzly.
Speaker 2:It tackles it At least tries, at which point the Grizzly is like, throws the guy off right and then he starts attacking him. The one guy the Grizzly thought was dead, so he just kind of leaves him there and I think the Grizzly got this other guy in its mouth, its head and its mouth. The scars on top of his head are just massive. Anyway, they both survive, obviously, and they're both wrestling. I think again now.
Speaker 2:But it's this tremendous story of a guy just saying like I'm not going to leave you. What an inspiring example of friendship. You know, like I will risk my life with a Grizzly bear to save you, who I barely really even know. And it's actually a great image for everything that you guys are talking about on here, with discipleship and whatnot. I mean, sometimes we're called by God to jump on the backs of Grizzlies to rescue each other and to save each other Anyway. So, coming out of that, the guy just said so. If you're going to seed the animals in the animal kingdom, I think Grizzly is number one. So a Grizzly can crush a bowling ball in its mouth. That's how strong its jaws are.
Speaker 2:That's pretty strong. It's really strong so that has everything to do with what I'm talking about? Yeah, everything to do.
Speaker 1:Grizzly bears, bowling balls and all of that. Well, let's Father, you lead us in a prayer as we transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love to the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Father, we thank you for the blessing that is the gift of life, and especially for the gift of living in these days that, in York, graciousness and providence, you have chosen for us to be alive in. Ask that you keep us from any and all discouragement, that you continue to remind us again and again that your Son is Lord, that he's triumphed over sin and death and Satan, that we have nothing to be afraid of because he's with us and he's with us always. So help us to be attentive today to the voice of the Spirit, to use the gifts that you've entrusted to us well and to do everything we can to continue the work that Jesus began on Easter Sunday until he comes back and makes it all new. We ask it all in Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, Father Ricardo, tell us a little bit about who you are and how Acts 29 came to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a priest to the Archdiocese of Detroit. I was ordained in 1996. So served in parish ministry for most of my life. Until about the last four years I did some study. They send the dumb guys back to school, so I went back to school. After I was ordained. Some work in marriage and family, ran a marriage and family center for a few years and then was a pastor for 15 and Mary, who's sitting here in the studio, she was on our team in the parish. She was the director of evangelization and discipleship. We were trying to figure out I was trying to figure out what I was going to do when I was going to leave the parish. I'm not sure how it is in Oklahoma City, but typically we're like 12 years as pastors and then we move. Something similar here, yeah yeah, very similar.
Speaker 1:Were you behind? Unleashed the Gospel.
Speaker 2:I was not behind it but I was on the leadership team of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was privileged to be part of the preparation for the Synod on New Evangelization, which was really an extraordinary moment. Part two is what the Archbishop of Detroit calls it in the history of the Archdiocese. So, actually flowing out of Unleashed the Gospel, which was both the Synod as well as the document that he wrote, came Acts 29, this organization that we started. So I know the Archbishop pretty well, he's very gracious to me, and so I knew my time was coming up, and so I had sat down with him and just said hey, I know I'm going to move soon. Would you be able to be doing something different?
Speaker 2:Because I don't think I'll do whatever you want, but I don't think God's called me to be a pastor anymore. I think he wants me to do something different. He said yeah, I'm open to that. What do you want to do? I said I don't know, but I just I'd like to take the time to pray. So I have a really good spiritual director and he's an older priest in his early nineties and just a wise man, and so I worked with him for about a year just trying to pray through some things, and at the end of it I got clarity to start Acts 29, which is a small team of people. There's seven of us, so me, Mary Albert, the three of us who are in the studio and then four others back home, and we're something like itinerant missionaries, or entrepreneurial missionaries is another way to think of it.
Speaker 2:So we, you know we're serious about trying to do everything we can to bring transformation to the church, and that's always dangerous to say, because you know the first person is in need of transformations me and probably in this room right now, the person most in need of it is me but that's something that we feel like God's really put on our hearts, is like a clarion call to realize a set of things, one that we're not alive right now by chance, to that there's a desperate need for people to have a restored confidence in the Lordship of Jesus. And, third, that there's a remarkable calling on the lay vocation, in a particular way, to pick up the mantle and to go out and to transform the world, as opposed to like duck and get out of here as quickly as possible when Jesus returns, because it's just not a healthy vision of Christianity. So we can break open all those things. But so we're a 501 C three. This is the fifth year of our operation.
Speaker 2:We do four main things. We do media. We create media content, whether it's podcasts or whatever, which is really intended to bring hope and encouragement. So Mary and I do a podcast every week called you Were Born for this, and we don't bury our heads in the sand by any, any means, but we we try to be conscious of the fact that so much media, both in the church as well as out of the church is just like causing division, it's stirring up anxiety and like that's just not of God Right. So we try to take a biblical perspective on all sorts of things that are happening in the church.
Speaker 1:So we do that. How do you think it's stirring up anxiety? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:The media in the church. Yeah, I think you know we're so. For whatever reason we sound so often like the world at large, we just we tend to demonize each other in the church Like it's their fault, it's the, it's the traditionalist fault, or it's the charismatic's fault, or if they'd only sing it in Latin, it'd be better If they only had a guitar at Mass, it'd be better If you only received communion. Your knee, I mean, it's like good grief on the tongue yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. So I think you know we talk about in the church all the time unity and diversity. I think that's really hard for us to handle, like everybody who's a little different than I am, I'm suspicious of, I mean quite candidly, yeah, and I think we all are that way, right, and it's hard to be united and diverse at the same time, and that's the beauty of what it means to be Catholic. But it's really difficult, and so I'm just really I'm annoyed by and frustrated by so much Catholic media that is rousing fear, division and anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's supposed to be drawing people together. It kind of comes from that. I heard a really great talk from Dr Jonathan Reyes and when you talk about like, I think that what you're referencing here is likea result of the Like. The first things of like are the first questions you know of. When you ask, like, what is wrong with the world, and there's kind of two answers to that.
Speaker 1:There is well, it's everybody else or if it's this other side, it's this other thing. There's, that's one answer, but really the the correct anthropomorph, anthropologic, anthropologic answer, theological is like me.
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:I'm the problem, yep, and I totally can see how, like, that Culture of worldliness has entered into the way that we think, and there's a way that I think yeah on different occasions.
Speaker 2:I think we're really prone to demonize people. You know we, when you lose sight of Kind, of a core piece of the gospel, namely who the enemy is, mm-hmm, then you tend to see the other as the enemy and the others not the enemy.
Speaker 3:there's only one enemy the others the prize right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:They might be a rebel my line yeah.
Speaker 1:I was. I had that locked and I love that man. Yeah, there.
Speaker 2:I always calm rebels to win. You know, just like I, I have been and can be still, but they're not the enemy. That's really important for us to remember. And we, we don't. We don't talk like that in the church, unfortunately. So, anyway, we do media, we, we do what we call our leadership immersives, where we bring people onto campus and our offices in Michigan. Well, we do kind of these four and a half day off-sites where we try to share with them and give to people what God's given to us For transformation, the church, all our works for you. By the way, we do retreats for priests. So we've brought about 3000 priests on retreat in the last four years in 20 some diocese. And then we created this thing called the rescue project, which we can probably talk about too. Yeah, that's our work. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:Good, can I Runt wind back to the where this began and just kind of dig inside a little bit. You were hearing a call To do something different, but you, you didn't know what. And I think that's incredibly Beautiful to be able to say the bishop like I need something different, but I don't know what.
Speaker 1:Good yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't go to the bishop and say something different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and really gracious of him to the honor what the Lord might be doing. I'm just curious if some of our listeners perhaps another priest, someone with an explicit Apostolic call, but doesn't like here's the call, but doesn't know what to do, how do you receive that and how'd it sound? You know, can you walk us through kind of your personal discernment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I'll. So whatever I'm gonna say right now I pray will come across for God's glory alone. But I have to tell you just some of how like God's always worked in my life. So we say about ourselves in general in acts 29 that we're we're not experts in anything Except mercy. We're witnesses. We're witnesses of what we see in God do, and I say that because I want to make that really clear before I say what I'm about to say. Like there's nobody in this room who has received more mercy in their life than me. So I'm just, quite frankly, florida. I'm still alive, quite honestly, let alone that God calls me friend. But I can remember so I was.
Speaker 2:I was fortunate to study in Rome, so didn't want to go there, got sent there studying Rome from 92 to 96 and it was totally transformative for me. So this is pre internet, pre email, pre iPhone. It was. It was death to me. I was very close with my family, my friends back home and Literally couldn't connect with them right. So I thought I had a good relationship with God before this. But I really learned how to pray when I went there and I can remember.
Speaker 2:The reason I'm sharing this is I can remember we got ordained as Transitional deacons in st Peters and if you ever been in st Peters, the main aisle of st Peters is All the different founders of religious communities or reformers of religious communities, and Somehow I can remember walking Through those statues on the day that we were ordained, and they weren't statues, they, I mean, they were the saints. They, the statues just represent who they really are, obviously, and the communion of saints is all I mean Really came alive to me in Rome, like suddenly, you know we're in, saying, the Agnes's church because that's her head, you know we're in Saints of Ashton's because that's where he died. And so the saints came alive to me and I I Knew at that moment, like not because, simply because of who God is, because God can work wonders and really broken people that there was some sort of call on my life that was much bigger than I had anticipated and and all I knew is God created me, was such a, in such a way that I'm like, go for it, like I want to. I want to do something great for you. I want to do something great for you, not for me. The virtue of magnanimity is so huge for us. Joan of Arc's, our patroness outside of our lady. I'm not afraid. God is with me. I was born for this and I think we all feel in our work and I've always felt in my life again, not because of who I am, but because of who God is God just wants to do something great in us, not just in me in us, in all of us. And so I've always had a disposition where I'm just like let's be great, yeah, let's be great and let's break the box. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:There's something about the drama that I've just given God permission to say I'm gonna show you the next step right now. So to be able to go to the bishop and say I don't know what it is, but I can't even begin to discern that if you don't give me permission. So we give me permission and then I gotta trust. If he says no, that it's not of God. If he says yes, that God's gonna lead me right, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:And so I think what holds us back sometimes and we talk about this a lot in our work it's a paralysis of I need to have the whole plan. No, you don't. It's actually much more exciting to not have the whole plan, because it keeps you on your knees and on your face and if you trust like God wants this more than we do we can trust he's gonna reveal things in his time and he's not a God of chaos or confusion. So we'll just give him permission and we'll just be in a position of being docile but not passive. Does that make sense? And that's how I discerned it. And then I gathered a bunch, so I brought Mary, four or five others. Albert wasn't on the team yet. I had heard this from I don't know if you guys know ID 916.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we've had Pete on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So those guys are friends of mine back in Ann Arbor and whatnot. And they started by Peter Herbeck and a couple others going up North in Michigan on a weekend running a house getting together saying, hey, do we know each other for friendship or has God called us to do ministry together? And that's how ID 916 came about, basically, and I remember hearing that, thinking that is an awesome way to discern. So about six of us did the exact same thing and we went up North and spent five days or so together and I just said, hey, are we in each other's lives for friendship or has God calling us to do something new? And if it's friendship, great. If it's something new, I wanna know what it is. And so some people discerned I think it's friendship. Others of us discerned no, I wanna go do something great for God. What do you wanna do?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:But now we know who it is and now we can go pray and continue to seek. And that's how Acts 29 started.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's an amazing story. One thing that I wanted to highlight that I think people can, that we can forget about sometimes, is like, is the disposition of obedience that you had in that discernment process with the bishop of when you were, when you gave that to him, of like, hey, I feel called to do something else, and you said it really quickly. But you mentioned like, well, if he says no, then it's not of God, and I think that that's really that's a very great place of discernment to be in. That I think that a lot of us can struggle with when we get this feeling, especially when we have some sort of confidence that it is a calling. So I just loved seeing that, I loved highlighting it. Is that something that was a learned experience for you, that type of disposition towards obedience, or is that just a grace of the ordination?
Speaker 2:Probably both, and it you know, of all the things that we promise, it's the hardest. As a priest, I mean, I promise obedience and respect to you and your successor.
Speaker 2:are really extraordinary words to say to somebody you know, and it's easy to be obedient and respectful to somebody who you really think highly of and I've been fortunate to have bishops that I really think highly of. It's not so easy to be obedient and respectful to people that you don't think highly of, and you know sometimes that's the case as well. But obedience is just really freeing as a priest and I think for us as an organization, as a ministry and apostle, it's the proof to us that we're doing what God wants us to do. Because the bishops said yes, like I don't need any more proof, like I'm doing what God wants us to do, because that's how I know how to discern it as a priest. And if he said, no, it's not his will, and I know that too, so it's, it gives permission to just run down this path and to continue to seek the Lord and he's on our board. You know, and all that, and whatever.
Speaker 2:So it's Archbishop Cochle. Actually he's on a Episcopal Advisory Council that we have with about a dozen bishops.
Speaker 1:but Heck, yeah, that's amazing, Is there a? So let's talk about the rescue project. Was that whenever you guys were in the narrative of getting Acts 29,? How quickly was the rescue project like brought into the fold for the as one of the main streams for the group?
Speaker 2:So it's probably worth saying something about what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's hard.
Speaker 2:The rescue projects is a video experience that we created, which is the way the Lord's led us to preach the gospel. So it flows out of our conviction that the most urgent need in the church right now is a compelling and attractive proclamation of the gospel, for the simple reason that we don't think most people have ever heard it.
Speaker 1:No, they haven't.
Speaker 2:I don't know whether they would hear it anyway John Paul. In a document that he wrote on catachetics he says the initial ardent proclamation of the gospel was supposed to be such that a person is gradually overwhelmed and then brought to a decision to surrender their entire life to Jesus in faith. I mean, come on, really, can you imagine walking into a church this Sunday and you make an announcement after you know, after communion, saying hey, just wanna ask for a show of hands here. How many people have been overwhelmed by the gospel? And I think 15, 20 would go up, maybe maybe You'd get some blank stares, confusion.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know Not, it does not compete, you know? And?
Speaker 2:then I'm gonna ask you a second question how many people here have made a decision to surrender everything, everything body, time, money, family, career, future into the hands of Jesus and I? You know, maybe it'd get five, maybe, and I think it's just because people haven't heard it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, they haven't been asked. They haven't been asked, they haven't heard it Exactly so.
Speaker 2:we created this and it was probably something that I started working on the last two, three years when I was at the parish. I used to teach our CIA, or OCIA, as it is now. So it began to evolve there and in a lot of ways it crystallized in two moments. One was a retreat. I did a set of years ago now where I brought with me a book that I heard Bishop Barron mention one time, called the Crucifixion Understanding the Death of Jesus Christ, by a person named Fleming Rutledge. So the book came. It's like 500 pages. I'm thinking Sweet. So I love the passion. It's my favorite period in the scriptures, just to dive into. I brought it with me on retreat and from the first page I'm just in love with this book. I'm like this is amazing. Who is this guy?
Speaker 2:Well, it's not a guy, it's a, you know, a 90 year old or 85 year old retired woman, anglican priest, no, you guys don't know me, but if you told me 25 years ago that my favorite author was going to be retired woman Anglican priest, I probably would have looked a little odd at you. But man, this woman can preach. So I heard she is a spectacular author and we've dialogued back and forth and I thanked her profusely. We have issues, obviously, we would disagree on, but she's a serious disciple. Anyway, I'm reading this book and I'm thinking this thing's life changing. It's 550 pages. No one's going to read this, or most people aren't going to read this.
Speaker 2:I got to find a way to communicate this to people and it was building on just other things that the Lord had done in my own life. And then, when we first started doing Acts 29, one of the hallmarks of what we do are retreats for priests, and among the many things we do with the priests is we just preach the gospel to them. So the rescue project actually started as the content that we would preach to priests. Because it's dangerous being professionally religious. I get more and more empathy with the Pharisees as I get older. I can give a talk out of my back pocket. That's not a good place to be and you can get used to saying words which should just floor you, that no longer floor you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you've said it so often.
Speaker 2:Yeah and so. Or to reify the gospel, turn it into a thing. So we were seeing the response that priests were having to this, everything from. I've never heard the gospel this way to. If I had heard this, my whole life would have been different, especially the image of Jesus.
Speaker 1:This is a priest saying that.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, my whole life would have been different I had one guy say if I had heard this 50 years ago, my whole life as a priest would have been different. I'm just sad I'm hearing it now. So that's. Those things kind of led to us creating this. We filmed it about a I don't know a couple of years ago. We launched it last August. So August 20th, 2023, is the one year anniversary of letting it go.
Speaker 2:It's out there for free, it's at rescueprojectus, it's translated into Spanish, dubbed into Spanish, it's in every state now, in 25 countries and, by God's grace, we're seeing great fruit. So you can run it into parish, you can run it in your home, you can run it into school, run on college campuses. You talked about focus earlier. We know a lot of focus missionaries who are running it. We're getting it into prisons and absent. This like nothing makes sense, right, because this has to the gospel's first, otherwise, actually, fleming, in her book she talks about how, in the final analysis, theological speculation can only take us so far, which is what's happening in the church right now. We're doing a lot of theological analysis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we want to be philosophers.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But she says like we need to know the story, and I couldn't agree more. We need to know the story, and the story is the gospel and the rescue project is the way the Lord's led us to preach it.
Speaker 3:So if I'm like first tuning into this podcast because your name was on it and haven't heard us talk about the gospel before, like could you proclaim it for us? Could you listen? What do we mean? What does it mean?
Speaker 2:Matthew, mark, luke and John. This is the first thing to latch onto, because it's really important for us as disciples and as evangelists and as missionaries and we're all disciples and evangelists and missionaries it's not on me which is really free. It's not the messenger that's power, it's the gospel that's power, and we just have to trust that. I don't think most people trust that. I don't think the church trusts that. I don't think a lot of priests trust that, that this really changes lives. The word that Paul uses for power in Greek is the word that we get dynamite from. That's what the gospel is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the most powerful things that someone who was investing in me while I was a missionary said I had in my gospel presentations that I gave and my testimony was like all over it and it was just really the J-show and it didn't make any sense. Because of that same thing, I wasn't trusting. And then my supervisor said to me is like Jase, do you really think that Jesus' power is less than yours with this gospel? And I was like it just cut me to the heart. So that's really true. You just have to believe that the gospel will do its thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'll say this and then I'll tell you how. I'll tell you the quick version of how I would do this for somebody who just would walk into an encounter with me. You were talking about focus and one of the first times that, in a very condensed fashion, that I presented what becomes the rescue project, curtis Martin was there and so I went up to him afterwards because I know him a little bit anyway, we have a lot of friends and I just said I love your feedback. Did that resonate with you? I love good feedback. And he said something to the effect of that was one of the most powerful presentations of the gospel I've ever heard, but it's not repeatable. You have to find a way to make that repeatable and I went that's really good feedback. So we went back and found a way to make it repeatable and that's how it came into four words, which is the way I preach it now.
Speaker 2:So if you were to call me, I've just learned as a priest anytime. In fact, I just did this walk in a golf course in Ireland with a guy who was catting for me, who had walked away from the church and whatnot. He wanted to know what we did and so I said well, can I tell you how I see the world? And if he said no, then there's no conversation, right, because don't waste your time. But if he says yes, you've given me permission, so now I can preach to you, I can share with you how it is that I see, and that's how I present the gospel. Like, these are lenses. That's how I think of it. I'm going to offer you a way to see reality and it's how I see reality. And we all see reality through lenses. It's just that most of us aren't conscious of it. So the lenses we're looking through right now in the country are causing people to just become anxious and angry and fearful and despairing. It's the loneliest generation of all time. We're living through what's called the New Great Depression. It's extraordinary the times that we're living in. So it's ripe for the gospel. That's why we need to preach it, because the gospel is really hopeful, right?
Speaker 2:So I'll do this by asking you four big questions. So the first is why is there something rather than nothing? The second is why is everything so obviously messed up? The third is what, if anything has got done about it? And the fourth is if he's done anything about it, how should I respond? So let's just try to do that real fast.
Speaker 2:So why is there something rather than nothing, the lenses that I see through the biblical lenses, the scriptural stories? The answer to that is because God, who is love, willed it all into existence out of nothing, didn't need it. He's not lonely, he's not waiting for the college football season to start, he's just diffusive of himself. And the highlight of everything that he made, the one that the creature that he loves the most is you. Not you guys, but you and you and me, and each individual, because God never sees crowds. So that's the biblical answer to the question why do you exist? Well, that's great, but if you're coming to see me, as a priest especially, you're probably coming to see me because something's wrong and you wouldn't be here if something wasn't wrong. So that begs the next question.
Speaker 2:So why is everything so messed up? Or the way I would put it is what the hell happened? Why is there human trafficking? Why do children get raped? Why do people get cancer? Why do my parents get divorced? Why do I suffer with depression? Why is everything messed up?
Speaker 2:And the biblical answer to that question is because one of the creatures that God made who was good, who was an angel. Out of envy, not of God, but of you and the plan that God has for you, rebelled and went to war, not against God, but against the creature God loves the most, and that's you. And what he did is at the very beginning of our race. He tricked our first parents into doubting God's goodness and thereby selling ourselves into slavery to powers that you and I can't compete against, and this is what we would call the bad news. So gospel means good news. This is the bad news, and it's not bad. It's horrific, and we almost never preach it because it's so bad, but it's like worse than our worst nightmare and the easiest way to understand it. The powers are really simple. It's sin and death, and they're easy to prove. Like you're going to die and you know it and there's nothing you can do to stop it. So Paul especially talks about death as if it's a government. It's not just something that's going to happen to you, it's exerting lordship on the race that we belong to. And the other power is sin, which is best written in a capital letter as well, and it's really easy to prove.
Speaker 2:I've ever done anything that you didn't want to do that you knew as you were doing it. Hmm, I don't think I should be doing this. That even as you're doing it, you're saying to yourself I hate doing this. Why am I doing this? And yet you did anyway. I mean, that's like all of our experience almost every day, if not multiple times throughout the course of the day. Right, why do we do things we don't want to do? And the biblical answer is because you're a slave to sin, because sin's a power and on your own you can't escape it.
Speaker 2:So the way that I see this is this is like imagine yourself having been trafficked. So you're now in the hands. You've been taken, you're incarcerated, you're used, you're changed. You're just in the hands of a fiend who loves to exploit you and there's no one coming for you and there's no way out. That's the human race. Third question what, if anything, has got done about it?
Speaker 2:So imagine you're that human trafficking victim and you're trying to sleep one night and you've been used for however long and one night, as you're lying on the floor, someone touches you on the shoulder, and that's not good because that means you're about to get hurt. But you look up and you see the face of someone unlike anybody you've ever seen in your life, who exhibits to you at one at the same time, extraordinary strength and remarkable love. And he stands you up and begins to untie you and you begin to think I might actually get out of here. And he starts walking towards the door of this room where you've been locked up and you're exhilarated and terrified at the same time. Exhilarated, you might get free. Terrified because you know who's outside the door. And as he opens the door and you cross the threshold and you're now untied, you see this one who's made your life a living hell, except he's tied up. And the Lord looks at you and says you don't have to worry about him anymore. I took care of him, you're free. That's Jesus.
Speaker 2:What, if anything, is God done about it? God became a man and went to war. That's what God's done about it. So we don't think this way about Jesus all the time. I ask you you know like who's Jesus to you? And most people say he's kind or he's compassionate, or he's gentle, and those are all true things. Be to God. But he's much more than that. He is those things, but he's much more than that. Jesus is Lord.
Speaker 2:And that's not the ending of a prayer. That's a reality. He is absolutely and utterly unconquerable and he became a man to hide so as to engage the enemy in battle, because the enemy is not stupid, even though he's not wise, and he knows he can't beat God. So God hides himself as a man to draw the enemy into a conflict, and that's what's happening on the cross. This is extraordinary stuff, guys. Like this is extraordinary stuff. Like God, jesus on the cross is not a victim, don't misunderstand that. He's really suffering, by all means worse than anything you and I can fathom, not just because of the physical but most especially the spiritual pain, right, but Jesus is hunting on the cross. He's an ambush predator, which is the term for certain kinds of animals which lie motionless and still camouflage with their environment, for one reason to attract prey. And that's what he's doing. He's trying to get the enemy to come close and to bite and he bites, and the result of Satan biting is he unknowingly undoes his own kingdom.
Speaker 2:So the fathers of the church used to talk about this all the time that it's only right that the one who deceived our race into you know, calling ourselves into slavery, should himself be deceived to bring about his own destruction and the. You know Augustine and Chrysostom and Irenaeus and Maximus the Confessor, and on and on and on, all the early church. They used to preach like this that's who Jesus is, without losing the kindness and the compassion and the mercy, but that's who Jesus is. We need to hear that kind of preaching again.
Speaker 2:So imagine you know that person rescues you from the traffic, or that brings up the fourth question what do you give somebody who rescues you from something like that? Like who could you trust more than that? Wouldn't you give them everything? And that's the gospel. And if you knew there are people back in the house getting trafficked, wouldn't you do everything you could to go get them? That's the gospel and that's discipleship. Go get those, go. Mary says over and over again rescued people, rescue people. That's a disciple. I've been rescued, I'm continually rescued daily and I'm called to go rescue others who are now as I once was and still can be. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It makes absolute. I love it.
Speaker 2:And that breeds confidence, right? Not naivety, not even optimism. Like I think it's going to get really bad, Like we might all get murdered, I don't know Like, but who cares? Like I'm not really crazy about how I'm going to die, but I'm just not afraid of dying because Jesus has conquered death. So he's defeated it without yet destroying it. He will one day. He's defeated sin without yet destroying it. He will one day. He's defeated Satan without yet destroying him. He will one day, so like, act like a stinking man and go to war for people as opposed to you know, the church oftentimes, in my experience, sounds like losers. We act with a defeated mentality. You walk onto a football field thinking you're going to lose, You're going to lose.
Speaker 3:And again, this isn't to be triumphalistic or naïve or optimistic but it is to be confident and magnanimous, absolutely Well, it's to recognize the gospel, is power right, exactly, and I think I left what from what you're saying here definitely even more galvanized. But I think it's your second.
Speaker 3:It's your second or third video in the series you talk about like a woman who has it all, that has a problem come to see you, you know, you know from the outside it's all perfect, beautiful, successful, lots of money, whatever, but life's broken and I've been in like five or six conversations over the past week that feel that way and honestly, even like internal movements that feel that way you know, like to be raw, right, like beautiful, wonderful life, but there's these interior things that the Lord's inviting me to surrender.
Speaker 3:And as I was listening to your that second or third video, I just had this great conviction of like my job's not to solve the problem that this person came with to me. With my job's not to, it might be to see them in the problem, to know them and love them in the problem, but reality, like my job's to unleash the power, my job's to unleash Christ's power, and so I was, even with a priest friend of mine. They're just kind of like wrestling through a pastoral issue because of truth that people have heard and they're angry and like I don't know, my conviction is like I think we need to proclaim the gospel. Like I think people need to realize that a father loved us and pursued us so much that he sent his son into this battle for you. You know we need to receive that and I think that I don't know. I just want to thank you for what you've done with the rescue project because, as someone who's received the gospel before I watched I kind of knew what you were doing with it.
Speaker 3:But I watched it and I was like, wow, that gives me a lot of conviction to own what I'm supposed to do as a missionary, like to realize that, like, why am I not proclaiming the gospel as frequently? Like I just had this, like I had this, like humility and this reaction of like Lord, your power, you know, you are powerful, and there's these things I'm worried about and you need to me to communicate your message. You know, like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just want to thank you for that because it really did increase all sorts of clarity for me about what my role is with people who are right and I would, I would, I would 100% agree with that. That. It is just really well done in the way of like showing the power behind it, like the gospel is powerful in any way that it's presented. You know, and whatever, whatever your skill level is, it doesn't matter what your skill level is like the Lord, the Lord does the work, we're just the conduits. Right, but the the convicting nature of it, and the part that I found really convicting for myself, was the part that you had where you showed the clip from the man from the high tower man on a high castle.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That high castle thing when this person finds out, finds this real, that is, showing that the US did win the war and that that there's something amiss going on here, and so it's just earth shattering lens, as you would say, happening. And then she starts watching it over and over and over and like. What was convicting for me is like and you just mentioned this as like somebody who, like, who works in the church, you get used to saying things over and over, like I mean the amount of times I've given a presentation on how to present the gospel Well, you start, you can start just saying it and I'm like man, am I, am I desiring to watch this over and over and over and like. The answer is like, sometimes no, like, sure, sometimes yeah, but but that was like the thing that I walked away with like man. It was allowing me to like, refall in love with it again to an extent, and I do love it, but it's a but, just like this conviction of like.
Speaker 3:If if this is like rescued people.
Speaker 1:Rescued people and this ability to just like want to just like be immersed myself in it and like be excited about it, and I think that that's something that is like for the, for those who are engaged in discipleship, and this will be a question that I have for you.
Speaker 1:Like, we've done a really great job in like, in focus, cco.
Speaker 1:All of these different like Bible studies are like kind of starting with a with a Bible study that has some sort of gospel proclamation, you know whichever flavor, and so a lot of our engaged parishioners are starting a lot of different Bible studies that start with that.
Speaker 1:And I've seen that there is a amongst that group of Catechized people who've heard the gospel once or twice at this point, or maybe maybe more times, but there is a when they're asked to start another Bible study or to start a study with with other people who've been through another one before that, there's a everyone wants to skip that book. They're like I've heard that before and I want to know, and I'm curious, what your thoughts are on like, on that particular phenomena of this, like I've, I've, checked that box off, I've, I've, I've. Maybe that's just like the intellectual culture that we have of. Just like you know, I've collected that piece of knowledge and I feel like I've mastered it, but that's something that I've seen with the gospel. Just like that trivializes it, and I was curious if you've experienced that or or how you've combated that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, In fact we just did a retreat not too long ago for a Catholic university and the. There's a priest who's the, the president of the university, and so we did the rescue project actually for the faculty over the course of five days or so. So it was a silent retreat and the, the talking was on this and then small group discussion and whatnot, and as we started I don't even think it was before we began, it was maybe like after the second or third talk he, he just kind of exhorted all the faculty. So this is a really seriously Catholic university, it's a great place. And he said you know, this isn't, this isn't about collecting items in your theological basket.
Speaker 2:That's not what we're doing. This is about letting our hearts be broken again. This is about meeting Jesus again. This is about remembering why we do what we do, so resist the temptation that we all have to just let this be intellectual knowledge and let it be more like scriptural knowledge, where to know means to like become one with someone, like let the Lord bring you deeper into union with you, as opposed to just oh, that's a cool tidbit. Never thought of it that way. And and I think we do that quite honestly Because intimacy scares the hell out of us, and especially as men but not just as men.
Speaker 2:We're so for so many reasons. I think we're so prone to look like we either have it all together or nothing moves us, or oh, I know all that and beyond that. We were at a early on when we started, mary and myself and another guy in our team, we were at a conference that Scott Holm was doing with a bunch of priests and John Bergsmot was preaching to the priests, teaching and preaching. I don't know if you ever heard Bergsmot preach, but man.
Speaker 1:I've read his books.
Speaker 2:And it's just an emotional guy, I mean, like you can tell, like he's just pouring out his heart and at one point is apparently it's pretty common as he's teaching, slash, preaching, he starts to cry. And we were sitting in the back row and there were two priests sitting in front of us and the one guy turned to the other and went oh, my gosh and then you could tell he kind of had a shame.
Speaker 2:a sense of shame came over me, turned back to the priest and you could tell in his mind it was as if he thought to himself when's the last time I cried teaching or preaching the gospel? Like it's not what's wrong with him, it's what's wrong with me that this doesn't move me the way it's moving him. Who's been doing this for?
Speaker 1:his life.
Speaker 2:And I think we're just God. That's why John Paul says this is supposed to overwhelm me and we're supposed to fall in love with God and to be absolutely, like on the floor, astounded by the fact that he loves me, like he doesn't tolerate me, which is oftentimes, I think, how we think he loves me. He thinks I'm worth dying for, he thinks you're worth dying for. I mean the heart of the gospel, which so desperately needs to be heard right now. Is you matter? I don't know if you guys are chosen fans, but I just absolutely love the chosen. And that scene when Nathaniel is at the base of the tree and he's screaming to God like do you see me? Like I think that's every human person's cry, like does anybody see me? Do I matter? Am I known? And God in Jesus is screaming back at us, going yes, I see you and yes, you matter and you're worth so much more to me than you could ever imagine. And when someone really grasps that.
Speaker 2:We used to use the analogy I'm sure you did too in Focus and whatnot and Campus Ministry. You can tell when someone's in love Like everything's different. You know, especially when they're young, like they bathe, they do all sorts of things right, I mean, but they just, they walk different, like their backs, you know, their shoulders are up, I mean, their heads high, like someone's thinking of me. You know Well, when you know God loves you what is that going to do?
Speaker 2:Holy cow, when you know you're worth dying for, when you're worth fighting for, and for both men and women, this resonates so profoundly. And again, the beauty is, I don't have to convince you of it, I just have to tell it to you. Yeah, I'll let him do the convincing, because he wants to.
Speaker 1:So you talked about how we're so afraid of that intimacy ultimately, and so we revert to that collector basket, or however we phrased it, and like the reasons why the intimacy is difficult is like obvious, right, like going back to your analogy, like we've been trafficking victims, you know, all the time. Like someone touching us on the shoulder means like things are going poorly or giving. Like you finally have this agency, this freedom that the Lord has given you, and but now it feels like like giving, giving him everything, feels like we're giving that away, you know, or can give that away. So there's just so much brokenness there and I think it's really easy to be frustrated with your brokenness. And but I still love like the way that we talk about it within the gospel, just like like Jesus just wants you, you know, and all of you, regardless of where, of how long it takes, how hard it is, no matter what mental illness may have resulted as a result of being in that bondage, you know, and that it's just an open invitation. So that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:And he's attracted to the brokenness. And if we're honest, we're attracted to the brokenness in each other, like that's what makes you real, I know. If, like somebody who's got a testimony of you, know I was born, I was baptized and I've lived a righteous life ever since, is of no use to me and I have nothing in common with you. And it's a lie anyway, because unless you're the Blessed Virgin Mary, it's not true. But so it's people's stories and their brokenness that is just so attractive. It's one of the things that we're. You know we try to model a lot. In the seminary I was, I was, at least implicitly, if not explicitly, taught to never be vulnerable. Don't just. Which is horrible advice, right, it's like don't be human. Try that for marriage prep.
Speaker 2:Hey, whatever you do with your wife, I don't be vulnerable Like, oh, that's going to go real well, right. And so we're trying to. We have to undo this isn't true for every guy, by all means, but it was certainly true for me and so we're trying to undo a lot of things that we were taught or modeled and we've seen bishops in a particular way go through just profound transformations, guys who are really strong leaders but who are afraid of vulnerability, who rightly began to sense I think God's calling me to be more real to my priests, and then took the dare, if you will, and got vulnerable. We were with one bishop who this is very public, I won't name him, but there was. We were doing some ministry with him and his diocese and he knew, like God was just tapping on the shoulder, saying you grew up in a tough home with a dad who never showed unconditional love. He showed conditional love, he showed reward love.
Speaker 2:And this guy says he made a more or less a vow to himself if I have children, I will never treat them the way my father treated me. And then he said to us and I realized that's exactly what I've done as a bishop. I've treated my priests the way my dad treated me the good ones I just love and the ones who give me difficulty, they get my wrath and he stood up in front of his presbyterite a couple hundred priests and for the better part of 40 minutes, said everything from. I've never told this to anybody before, brothers, and now he's telling it all the time. But I want to ask you to forgive me for doing what I said I would never do and I'm not going to do this anymore. And to this day, it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen happen in the church. His entire presbyterite, like as one man, stood up and just erupted into applause when he was done and started to pray over him. One guy just rushed forward, put his hands on him, started to pray and the healing that's going on in this presbyterite and this diocese as a result is extraordinary.
Speaker 2:So this guy was a really strong leader who's really public now on saying like I would have looked at the vulnerability stuff as just soft and useless and like that's not a man, and now he's like gosh. I couldn't have been more wrong. He's a stronger leader now as a result of it, because he's real. He's got all the strength, but he's human, he's genuine, he's authentic and his brothers can relate to him and the people can relate to him and he can let God run into the weakness, as opposed to try to hide the weakness that he, like everybody else, has. It's like God doesn't run from my weakness. He runs towards it, even though I run from it. Right.
Speaker 1:Is it a? I mean, it's got to be, it's got to be a tenet of our secular cultures. Imaginative vision to not be, to not be human is better, or to be the least human you can be like. That's not perfection, that's not the ideal image of oneself, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think certainly the cancel culture doesn't hurt, right, because it just it like we're afraid you're going to find out about me, but you know here's the.
Speaker 2:God has a cancel culture but it's not people, it's sin, like we say over and over again to especially the priests. Because you know the whole account of Peter's denial, like there's a reason that's in scripture, yeah, and who told us about it? Peter did Like nobody else was there. It's like the slave girl posted something on Twitter, right, you know, peter told us about his denial and then you get Peter's reinstatement, which is so healing, because it's so important to see how Jesus handles the struggles and the falls of one of his chosen ones, because it's not the way the world does and it's not the way the church often does too. I mean who? I don't know. If you guys know, luigi Giussani is the founder of communion and liberation, but Giussani has this great reflection on the encounter between Jesus and Peter at the shore and he says who in the world would have ever imagined that question coming? Do you love me? Because I think Peter's just expecting the anvil to fall, because that's what.
Speaker 1:I'd be expecting yeah.
Speaker 3:Literally you're moving on. I'm Boston.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I'm done, I guess. No, actually you're going to be even better now because you know how broken you are. Now you're actually able to be a good shepherd because you know you need me. Before this you thought you had it all and you would have been a horrible shepherd, but now you know you need me. Now you know you're a sheep as well as a shepherd and now you can finally lead. So the beauty of like I think it's Lewis in one of his books talks about and I thought probably in heaven we're just like oh, you think what God forgave you is impressive. Let me tell you what he forgave me. I mean because you're just giving glory to God as opposed to hiding. Oh no, I'm afraid if you see me for who I am, you might run for me.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's beautiful, James. Did you have anything you wanted to add?
Speaker 3:as we land the plane how can our listeners, how can the faithful support our priests?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a great question and thanks for asking it. So let me say something real quick because I want to make sure I don't get misunderstood here. There are lots of priests around the country who are thriving right now, to be sure, but our experience over the last four years, especially kind of being all around the country and being able to To minister and pray with you know, upwards of 3,000 guys is most or not they're surviving.
Speaker 2:I mean they love Jesus, they love the church, they love their people, but they're. They're surviving and it's they're struggling and there's a lot of things we can do. The first is just realize that Most priests don't talk about what's going on. Because what am I gonna tell you? Most of the stuff that I hear I can't talk about. And Like, what does a priest do for crying out loud? I mean, he says mass once, it once a week, or maybe every day.
Speaker 2:How hard can that be, man? I Used to think this is gonna be like a cozy life. It is it, I'll tell you. When I left the parish after 15 years of being a pastor, I went through Pete, something close to PTSD, like I was with Mary and her husband, who are my best friends and we run vacation together, and I turned and looked at them and said I'm literally beginning to feel right now like I haven't felt in years. I Thought I was coming alive again because I had been. I just had gotten acclimated to, to living with my head on a swivel and going from trauma to trauma to trauma, which is what you do as a priest.
Speaker 2:We had a pretty good size parish, about 12,000 people in it. Albert is sitting right over there, he and his wife and I. We were out to dinner I Don't maybe six, eight months before I left the parish, and he told me not too long ago. He turned to his wife at one point after the dinner and said man, I'm just really worried about him. He didn't look good and and so long way of saying.
Speaker 2:The first thing you can do is pray for priests Some people might be familiar with. There's a, an apostolate called the seven sisters, where I Think it came out of a Minnesota but the woman who founded it's an international movement. Now we're seven women each take a day a week to do a holy hour for any given priest, and Mary started one for me a couple years ago and it's it's just a godsend to know someone's praying for me every day in front of the Blessed sacrament. I can't imagine where it be without it. So, wants to pray as brothers Go out? Invite him out. I want to go grab a drink, you want to watch a game? Want to do something? Let him say no as opposed to thinking, well, he's probably really busy, doesn't have time for it. We'll tell you if we don't want to go out with you, trust me. But let us make the call, you know, like, because not everybody's gonna have the temperament to say, hey, can, can we get together? Right? But if you do, it would be great. Invite him over to the house. Stop gossiping in the church, for gosh sakes, man. We, we sound like a bunch of junior high kids all the time in the church. We we're talking in the parking lot about each other. We got to stop doing stuff like that.
Speaker 2:You know, realize, when a pastor comes into your parish from another parish, like, here's the human piece, you're grieving, maybe, maybe you're ecstatic because the old guy left, but you might be grieving too, like because the father left and so it's hard. And in comes this new guy who's also grieving because he just left his family, and it's not natural for fathers to leave families. And so you know, even something as simple as the first three, four months of a parish when a new guy comes, be genuine and patient with each other, because it's probably gonna be hard, because everybody's grieving and we don't do grief very well as Americans. We don't know how to mourn, but that's what's going on. You're mourning and mourning the loss of my spiritual father and the other guys mourning the loss of his children, and You're all looking at each other like now is this ever gonna work right? So you some people call me father in a parish. It's the last relationship most people have with me. I'm a CEO, I'm a fundraiser and the head of the school I'm, I'm the marketing, I'm I'm all sorts of things. The last thing I am to accept for a very Small number of people is an actual father.
Speaker 2:They don't know me that way. You got kids. How many? Three your kids? One one? Do they know you? Mm-hmm? Yeah, do you know them? Yeah, nobody knows a priest and he doesn't know any of his people. He knows a small number of people. There's too many people to know. Like, I can't know my family. There's 12,000 people. How can you know them? Right, and that's really frustrating. So we just got a. We have to find new ways of making Parish life more human, because what we want is we want to be known, and nobody wants to belong to a big parish, because I'm not known at a big parish. So we have to find a way to make a big parish small, and small parishes have to stay really tight and intimate. Those things will go a long way to helping priests.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sharing those things like the, the knownness of it and when you put it like I just imagined like my son not knowing me and Like maybe tear up a little bit like the idea and I like broke my heart for our priests. So thank you for sharing that with us. So be good to your priests, but this has been Red Dirt Catholics.
Speaker 3:I'm Jayce.
Speaker 1:I'm James.
Speaker 2:I'm father John.
Speaker 1:Thank you, guys. We'll see you next time.