Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Vision and Leadership (ft. Father Jim Goins)
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Jayce and Alex sit down with their former pastor, Father Jim Goins. Father Goins is currently pastor of Saint Eugene Catholic Church in Oklahoma City.
Have you ever found yourself reminiscing over college hijinks, then moments later pondering the profound life lessons they taught you? That’s exactly the adventure we embark upon with Father Jim Goins, whose stories golf courses, puppies and pulpit pranks lead into pondering the questions: what role does vision play in leadership? Do you have to be a visionary to be a leader? How do you know if your vision is something even worth pursuing?
Listen for all that, and more!
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
eight, nine zero, and welcome back to Red Dirt Catholics. I'm Jace. I'm here with Father Jim Gohans and Alex Sanchez. Remember, you can listen on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can watch the full episode on YouTube by searching Red Dirt Catholics. So, father Gohans, we're super excited to have you on.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:It's a shame that we haven't had you on sooner, because you have such delicious dirt on both of us in our college years.
Speaker 3:That is true.
Speaker 1:He was our pastor at St Thomas More, Alex graduating. Just before I start strolling into the place, into the church, like ships passing in the night. So we just wanted to like start off with like what's your best Sanchez story from.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, the best Sanchez story.
Speaker 3:Cue the editing.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, he went with me when I traveled up to the Ozarks to pick up my Airdale puppy Lattie. Boy, the notorious LID, even though, Sanchez is not a dog person, not a dog person but he went with me. It was a great trip it was. I was like I'm gonna be back home and I can't remember how long after that, but the dog would eat anything he found, including one day, a sock.
Speaker 2:He ate a sock and then, during a staff meeting, decided, well, I can't keep this sock in my stomach, and he threw it up in front of my entire staff and Alex was gonna like, help me clean it up, because he was like, oh, you know, I have to clean it up. How bad could it be? I have children.
Speaker 3:I thought I was ready.
Speaker 2:And then he got close to the crime scene and I thought he was gonna throw up and I'm like no, no, no, adjust, get him out of there. Good, loyal friend who was gonna help me in most terrible of times and just couldn't do it.
Speaker 3:I thought I was ready. I was like I've been training years for this with the kids and I approached it and I thought I would do just about anything else in that moment.
Speaker 2:It may have been one of the most foul things I've ever witnessed and I honestly thought that the staff would just all quit. I really did. I thought maybe you guys were just all resigned, so no, we had great, great times.
Speaker 1:It was great times, a lot of golfing, lots of golfing, lots of golfing.
Speaker 2:He came out once, I remember, in flip flops. I remember that I'm like to play some golf. I'm like Alex buddy, you can't play golf in flip flops. And he played much better than I did and he was in flip flops. He hit great that day.
Speaker 3:It was crazy. We started there and then we kept golfing for the next few years and then we were out together when I hit my hole in one Right. Oh man, that was a beautiful shot. That was wild.
Speaker 2:There are some holes in one that are just. You know, they squirrel up there and they dribble in the hole, like mine. But yours was this beautiful arcing shot over a pond and then just went directly into the cup. Beautiful, I loved it.
Speaker 3:I think golf was a special part of our relationship too, and actually it was really cool because Father Jim celebrated my wedding with Hillary and it was just awesome because we golf even made it into the, into the homely, which is really cool, but it was in a. It was in a cool way, it wasn't just like a guys moment. We remembered we had been talking one time about this this moment where we came up to this pond and we always tend to play bad on this because we were, we were worried about hitting into the water and and in the wedding homely, he talked about how it's not the water itself, but it's the fear of the water that tends to, tends to lead to what happens next. And so he said it's not the really the, the hardships, necessarily, that you're going to face, but it's the fear of those things that will affect you. And I was like, wow, that's beautiful and that's awesome that we got a little shout out to our time playing golf together.
Speaker 3:You know, but yeah, good times, good times.
Speaker 2:And to think you married at St Eugene's, yeah, and now I am pastor there. That's right. Life has a funny way of you know the your future is hidden in the present. I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's fascinating, and my my favorite going story from from my college years was he was going, we were all going through a phase in, you know, 2014 through 2017, right Like Snapchat was just coming out, the selfie was being normalized during that time and it was just it was just starting to get up to the, to the, to the older generation on some of those things, and so Father Goans had gotten really into taking some selfies with some special filters throughout and throwing them and throwing them on his, on his Facebook post, and we had a good relationship so, and he thought we used to have a good relationship.
Speaker 1:We had had a good relationship and I, I, I slide, I slide into the comments on his on the latest photo. You know kind of you know doing like this or whatever. And I say you look like my middle school sister. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Brutal.
Speaker 2:And I, and I and I get them forgetting that I had the power of the pulpit.
Speaker 1:I certainly did. I did not know. I did not know what I was getting into. I couldn't fight that. I was immediately going to lose. So a few weeks go by, you know, nothing has happened. And I think on the, on the Facebook post, he said beware of Jayce Palmer, or something like that. Okay, sounds, sounds good, father.
Speaker 1:And so we're at late night liturgy one night. I'm sitting bright eyed, bushy, tailed up in the front row and the gospel reading or maybe it was the second reading was like one of the more brutal ones. Beware of licentious sexual sin. Just listing off all of these terrible things. It was just kind of a darker a darker thing, a darker reading, and so we're all just kind of like in that mood and I'm like, well, that's real. I wonder what that means to me.
Speaker 1:And I'm there sitting there, little college petroleum engineering Jayce, just excited to hear his pastor speak truth. Speak truth into my heart, oh my gosh. And he gets up there and goes whoa, whoa, whoa. Be unto you, jayce Palmer, and it's humbly that way. And everyone in the like. There's like a hundred students in there. It really grabbed everyone's attention.
Speaker 2:They were like when you attack someone personally, people sit up and take notes.
Speaker 1:I was going to say he wants to look around and I'm just like what happened? What did I do to deserve this? God? It's like this has to be a nightmare. This has to be a dream. That's hilarious and honestly, I think I've blocked out whatever he said after that. Do you remember?
Speaker 2:Well, I remember the gospel reading was the woe to you Chirosin, woe to you Bethsaida, those towns that had rejected the Lord and were now in ruins, and I think it was something to that effect that's so good.
Speaker 1:And so then we moved on from that and I was just like, oh, I got to get him back. Oh my God. And figure that out. Well, you're sure a chance yeah. But yeah, Father, we're beyond excited to have you on the podcast. We're talking about vision and leadership. We brought you here because you have you've had shown such a propensity to have a great vision in a lot of the different ministries that you've been involved in over this time, so we're excited to pick your brain on some of that and dive into it.
Speaker 2:Father, would you say a quick prayer for us and for our listeners as we get started Absolutely In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen, heavenly Father, lead us closer to your Son and grant us an interior vision of your kingdom, of the life you call us to, give us a vision of the stewardship and of the grace, the help that we need to give to the world in your son's name, forever and ever. Amen, amen, amen, father, son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
Speaker 1:So vision? What is vision, and how do you have so much of it?
Speaker 2:What is vision? I don't know that I have any more than other priests, but I will say this there are moments in priesthood, in pastoral life, when you are gifted with an insight into the needs of your community. The future needs, not vision is always about the future. We're called to live in the present, but we're also called to think and dream about the future. And there have been graced moments in my priesthood and I remember one from Thomas Moore from those days, those wonderful years in Norman.
Speaker 2:Actually, the day I walked on the property so a surprise assignment, not one that I had anticipated, but walking onto that property I saw three dilapidated houses adjacent to the chapel, the kitchen area, and immediately in my inner heart I saw that those houses needed to go and that's where the church would expand. I mean, it was just a very odd but graced moment. And I can remember thinking I was looking at the houses and I thought to myself okay, I'll take the red one first, I'll tear that one down first, then I'll take that white one down, and then I looked over at the third one, a gray house, and I thought that will be the last and then we will build here. So that's been probably the most poignant moment in visionary leadership.
Speaker 2:because you two remember that chapel. We had there charming, beautiful little chapel. There's something wonderful about that space.
Speaker 2:It was small and cozy and the community loved it, I loved it, and there was a reluctance to let go of that and to grow because the danger of growing is that you won't be as close if a parish grows and I remember telling the parish leadership once it doesn't matter if we want to grow or not, we're going to the university will grow, norman will grow, and we will need something beyond this chapel. So that was probably the most clear memory I have of a visionary moment in my priesthood.
Speaker 1:What were the circumstances surrounding that moment for you, like how long had you been there?
Speaker 2:Initially, I mean I had just walked on the property, but within months, within I would say seven or eight months I began talking to the parish leadership about future needs and they had thought of it and there had been other plans and dreams for a parish hall. And I remember I said you have a parish hall, we worship in it every Sunday. You have a parish hall. You're going to need a church and it began. Seeds were planted and it took a while.
Speaker 3:Was there ever a time that you thought about like relenting or pulling back of maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm this is too lofty of a vision or maybe people pushing back on a parish hall maybe that's right. Was there any part that you started to waver or you were pretty firm in it the whole time?
Speaker 2:I'm a rather stubborn person. I mean it is not in my nature to second guess. You know, once I make a decision I tend not to second guess them. But I do remember when I would become discouraged about the money needed to build the future, I would go to the shrine at their in Gransom's garden and I would pour my heart out to St Joseph. I had lots of heart to heart talks with St Joseph in those years and I always credit him. I was giving credit for what we were able to do there. Wow.
Speaker 3:So good. Yeah, I think I mean Jason and I are from the same background, from the same cloth, with our time and focus, and the word vision get used a lot, but it was always casting vision, like casting vision, sharing, sharing a vision that you have so other people understand it, so they can be excited about it, so they can work towards it, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:But I think even in recent years, there's just like there's different language with you know, knowing your why or having goals, and I wanted to ask if you see vision and it sounds like you do, but if you see vision as something different or separate from goal setting or knowing your why, I do.
Speaker 2:I think vision is something that borders the mystical. I think vision only comes with prayer. Vision is something that's granted by God and serves God. Goals very often are human construction and goals can be met. They cannot be met. You know, goals are great, they're fine, we need them, but vision is something deeper. Vision is, you know, dreaming of the kingdom to come, the kingdom that is not yet here but will be here.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. I love that, yeah. What I think is really beautiful about that is I think that just in hearing you talk about this like this interior vision, this interior realization that you knew, I mean, you're a very smart man but there's something in your heart that you said kind of shifted or came alive in that moment, when you stepped onto the property and saw the three houses, you kind of necessarily calculated decision of okay, financially this makes sense. Or you said it was just kind of like a gift from God, like a moment that you received a vision rather than constructed it and financially it did not make sense Financially.
Speaker 2:It was a pipe dream at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Talk a little bit about that. How do you like if the Lord tells you something and it practically doesn't make any sense because this is something that I like, I'm a practical guy If I would receive something from the Lord and it just sounds redonkulous, like let's talk, like Sarah in the Old Testament when he's like you're going to have a child, and she laughs and it comes a whole dramatic thing as a result of it.
Speaker 1:I would probably be one of the first people to get in trouble for something like that. So how do you trust? How do you, in the face of all of that like negativity or the odds? That's a great question.
Speaker 2:I think again, because it is a spiritual moment very often when you're given kind of a visionary epiphany. If you will, you have to trust that the Lord will make it possible. Now the leader has to be able to articulate the vision. If he or she cannot articulate it I don't want to use the verb sell, but in some sense you have to sell the vision, but you have to articulate it. You have to at some point get the people to see what you see, to call forth from them the vision that you have been granted, Because without the people on board with it, then, yes, it's going to remain a pipe dream. But if you get, for instance, if you get a pastor and a parish united behind a dream, a goal, it's amazing what the church can do. It's amazing what can be done together.
Speaker 3:Wow, I love that. I don't think I had thought about that before the fact that vision is something to be received, something to be cherished and held onto, something that you can continue to pour out in prayer, like you were with St Joseph, and hold onto it, but also something that needed to be articulated and shared. Well, I'm sure at least for me, I think, if I look back on my life, my ability to articulate myself in different settings. If lunchway sometimes it's well received, sometimes there's a lot of rebuttal. Throughout that process, in particular for you as you articulate it, did you find yourself growing in your ability to articulate it over time or did it really from the beginning? It stayed the same for you and it was very clear. What was that process like for you as you articulated that to the people?
Speaker 2:I think dialogue helped a great deal to dialogue with people, to talk to people. The more I learned about the history of the place it's something leaders need to remember that there was life there before I arrived, deep faith life there and deep faith life after I left. That the parish or the church or anything holy is far greater than any one person. In dialogue with the parish, in dialogue with the staff, I was able to hone the message and I was able to bring the message into focus in a way that people could see it. I remember that morning that we took everyone out to the site where the new church would be built and we had them join hands and form the outline of what the church would look like
Speaker 1:remember that day.
Speaker 2:And there was a drone and those photos. I always saw that as a turning point. It was in that moment that so many people thought oh, yeah, yeah, this is going to happen.
Speaker 1:We're doing this, we're doing it, it's happening. It's a great moment great moment, so helping others believe that they can achieve something together and building something that they can rally around together are key aspects of that. Is there? I love talking about you, Father Jim. Are there any others that maybe helped form you or any other stories that you find inspiring as far as believing in a vision?
Speaker 2:I can remember once, when I was in seminary in what I called in those days the bowels of formation years. One of those years.
Speaker 1:Okay, we have to hit pause. What does it mean to be in the bowels?
Speaker 2:Well, it's that moment where it seems like you've been in formation forever and you're going to be in formation forever and you can't really see the end of it and you're like you're just right in the middle I'm never going to make it to a nation and we had a gathering here at the Chancery, in the chapel which, if your listeners have not seen the chapel here at the Chancery, they should.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful. It's a gorgeous chapel, great mid-century modern architecture and Father Petusky, rest his soul, gave us a talk and on the floor of that chapel, as you know, there are the different symbols of the different stages of formation until priesthood, and he called our attention to that and just his manner of speaking and the warmth and the warmth he was so genuine in letting us know that you are cold and you are on this path and your job right now is to remain on the path and to be faithful to the formation and your future will include priesthood, you know, being the will of God. If it's the will of God, you will be a priest and there will come a time when you will be a priest far longer than you were ever a seminarian. And that vision of his struck a chord within me and I can remember I went back to seminary much more hopeful and much more confident. It's good.
Speaker 3:It's good. I'm just thinking about the effects that it has when someone shares vision with you, the vision that they've received or they're holding on to, whether it's for a new church, whether it's a vision of hope of becoming priests, of just thinking about the effects of there's a hopefulness being challenged or being reminded or being drawn into something bigger than you had originally thought or lived for it. I think that's really good. Yeah, it has me thinking about the vision that is shared with person to person of the gospel and of discipleship. This is the vision that God actually has for your life and for our life is for us to live in this way and just think about the impact of sharing vision or to getting vision in the context of discipleship and leadership. And so I know it just has me thinking it's really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's amazing. I've been kind of living in that space. We have a confirmation retreat that we're leading for a parish on Saturday. We're going to have 258 people there it's sponsors and parents and we're taking them specifically through the karygma, like the. Each session is involved in that and the small group sessions afterwards are diving deeper into those areas.
Speaker 1:And, as I was like kind of praying with it and thinking through, you can say, well, we're doing the karygma for this retreat, but what about the karygma?
Speaker 1:What key aspects. And I was praying with and thinking through like what do I? I was just thinking about the moment where we understand in the karygma, where Christ finds us and pursues us Like that, you know Grace has died, has healed the relationship with us, and just about that relentless, like maniacal, like I love you and you are everything and coming for us is just like the absolutely most beautiful image that I can think of. And so the image that came into my mind was just the prodigal son, which isn't particularly revolutionary, but you know, I had it like dialed into, like the speaker, and was like, hey, let's make sure that we talk about the prodigal son in this area. And this understanding and this moment where the father runs to the prodigal son as he's coming back, and I'm just so excited for these kids to even have to feel 1% of what that could be like, you know, in that moment. But it is, in a way, casting a vision of what their life could be, because nobody like it's a one day retreat.
Speaker 1:Nobody's spiritual life was, is uprooted and completely better in one day. But the vision of this could what this could be, and believing in that and believing in the Lord and having that trust, you know that's, you know it's a really beautiful thing to think about because it's higher than selling, like you're saying, but it is selling in a, in the human way.
Speaker 3:And I think what comes to mind with what you're sharing too and just cause some thoughts are getting connected in my mind, is that it's not like a almost like articulating vision. Maybe it's in the setting that you're in, but it's not necessarily just to call a few, but to let like often, to let everyone see how they're being called in in maybe a certain direction. I just remember it, like as part of the church building. It was like hey, there's a role for kids, like there's a role for families. There's a role like it doesn't matter if you're a massive donor or, you know, a low income family. There's a way that we all can give and move as a community and as a parish towards this for the betterment of everyone. You know they're just good.
Speaker 3:And so I think it also is a good reminder for me, both the dialogue I think the dialogue part's a good reminder for me of like that's very humble for me to take my vision and to be willing to dialogue of hey, maybe there's blind spots here, maybe there's something I'm not articulating. Well, that to me feels humble, but then to come out of it in a way that articulates, that calls, you know, the young and the old, or the rich and the poor, all to a vision of conversion or also a vision of working together to build a new church. But that really challenges me. I think without the dialogue piece, then you will have blind spots, and so I think there's just some things in there. I'm like, wow, I hadn't thought about that. It's really good for me.
Speaker 1:So you built the church.
Speaker 3:We built, it was built.
Speaker 1:You got, you got yeah sorry we, my fault.
Speaker 1:And so what happens to someone who's when their vision has come to reality and it's time to like dream something new or like be open to what the Lord has to say, and it like, what is that transition like of from going cause, like you know, it's constantly. It's constantly moving, it's a target that constantly moves. What is? How do you? How do you move from one to the other? And like, how do you not get, like you know, you see all these videos and stuff about people who peaked in high school because, and really it's kind of like their vision ended right and what they're going for. So what? What advice do you have from like continuing to move on?
Speaker 2:My advice is have the courage to ask the Lord to give you another mountain to climb. I'm certainly someone that needs a mountain to climb and after that was accomplished, I needed another. I needed something new. I didn't really know that I wanted it. I knew that I did need it but, gosh, I would have spent the remainder of my priesthood there on the links at Westwood and Norman, would have been very happy, but I was, you know, moved, not immediately after that church was built, but I was moved.
Speaker 2:I'm in a new parish and I've been thinking and praying and thinking about something entirely different, formulating a new vision, and I've been reading a lot about what the country will look like in 30, 40 years, and you know if I may just give you a sneak peek of what's been on my mind, but you know we're evolving into a country where there will be no ethnic majority. Everyone will be part of a minority by 2050. Well, I serve a parish now that is remarkably diverse. You go to Mass at St Eugene and you will see people from every ethnic group, language, background, skin tone. It's humbling, it's beautiful, it's amazing. So what I'm thinking about these days is how does a particular church, how does a parish show the culture how the future can work well and work fairly and beautifully, and I think I'm in a parish that has an opportunity to show the city how that will be done.
Speaker 2:You know, at one time in this country Sunday morning was the most segregated time of the week White people went to one church, black people went to another, right. Well, now we have an opportunity, as Catholics, to show the country. No, we belong together, we're family, someone told me recently. A priest friend said chrism is thicker than blood. I love that Chrism is thicker than blood. So if you are baptized, you are my brother, you are my sister and we are a family of faith and a family that can model something to the country, to the culture. That will be a future of prosperity and peace and fellowship. So I've been thinking a lot about that and asking for a vision to come from that.
Speaker 3:That's so good. That's so good. I think, to go back to one of the first things you said of vision comes from something that you receive, from seeing the future needs of the people, and I'm like gosh, that's just such a good description of it and I see it in what you're saying of there will be a time when everyone realizes that this is going to be reality and I have an opportunity right now to implement and to minister in a way that kind of as a trailblaze, like to lead the way, to pioneer the way, and I don't know. You certainly have a gift and I think you're right that there's this skill of articulating vision. But then the vision itself really is a gift that you receive and I've just been around you enough to hear these kind of moments over the last 10 years that when you say something, I'm like you know what that has me thinking and I still remember. There's two things that came to mind, and I don't want to make it the father gym show, but for me I'm like gosh, there's just so many good moments of vision, but I remember.
Speaker 3:I remember six months before COVID ever came to the US, before there was ever a documented case this would have been, I don't know, september, october. It was far before there was, you know, shut down and mandates or anything. There was no cases, there was just some news stories here and there and then people were getting concerned, but not really. It wasn't very, it was kind of just another news story. But I remember at a certain staff meeting you said I am really concerned about this, and you know me, I'm unplugged and so I'm like ah probably just some you know news story.
Speaker 3:It's probably not a big deal, and you said I really think that we need to be thinking of ways that we can continue to operate, administer to our people and keep the lights on and move forward, cause I think that it will come and it will affect everything. I remember thinking I don't know, it's like there's not a single case in the US Like this is so small.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I remember you thinking like you're, like I think you said at that time like we're gonna need a lot of hand sanitizer. We're gonna need a lot of hand sanitizer. But also the move you said is we need to, we need at this point to move some of the giving from the parish to online, to automatic. That way it's sustained during this time if something were to happen. I remember it was months before anything happened I was like, ah, I don't know. And then, but in that moment you saw the future needs of the parish and what felt maybe to other people, like you know, a lot of fear, was really a gift of vision of this is going to happen and to take care of the people, there's things that need to be put in place.
Speaker 2:Talking about Facebook. At one point I went onto my Facebook page and told people look, you're gonna have to stock up on groceries. There will be disruptions. And this is happening and you know, and if you're at risk you better hunker down. And I talked to a fellow priest and he said you are a fear monger. And I said no, no, I'm just someone who's reading the signs of the times.
Speaker 3:Right. Yeah, I think there's something and maybe you can speak in this in a moment. I wanna give one more example, but maybe there's a connection here between vision and discernment. I don't know how much those are linked, but kind of reading the times, discerning what's happening around you, what could be. The other story that comes to mind is with hiring Casey Partridge there at St Thomas More. It was just a. He was a guy in the parish.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to give you credit for a lot of that it's great, yeah, it's about time, Jase it's about time.
Speaker 1:I've been holding it for a while.
Speaker 2:Remember you came to me and said look, this is possible and I thought, ooh, how can we afford it? How can we afford it, but I have to give you credit for that.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I have a big driving force of like potential. I see potential, I'm like gosh it's unlimited. But I came to you with it and there was not really a place, there's not really a role, there's nothing. And you said, well, why don't we look into?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look what he's doing down there now.
Speaker 3:And he's the only person leading directly responsible for marriage and family events in the diocese. But almost across the country that position doesn't exist, but I've just seen the good fruit from that and I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think there's just some moments of vision, of receiving vision of what's possible, what's to come of reading the signs and that you discerning. Like you know, I'm all in. We're gonna move forward here. It's very impactful. So, yeah, I can see it as a gift. But then, like you said, some of the skills are being able to dialogue, some of the skills are being able to articulate. But really I think you're saying, like, as a leader, the first step is to pray for vision, to pray for amounts and to climb and then to begin to put those things and to affect through dialogue and through practicing articulating. So yeah, that's, I mean, it's really really good. Any thoughts there, jayce?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean so you've talked about well, actually not a thought I was gonna go a different direction. I was thinking about how you said that your stubbornness was helpful in your visioning in a certain way, as far as, like, you don't have doubts as often, like you make a vision and you execute, so to speak, and you move forward.
Speaker 1:And I was curious about, like I wonder how the Lord used that in your life, because not everybody can like there are probably great visionaries out there, but they don't have the confidence necessarily to see it through or the tenacity to see it through Like I mean we could talk about, like the working geniuses of, like you know, with Pat Lentioni, and visioning is at the very top and execution and tenacity and finishing is at the bottom and a lot of people who have one don't have the other. So where did the confidence and trust in the Lord with those visions come from? Like that's outside of you.
Speaker 2:I'm a convert and I think some of that comes from that background. I can remember as a boy hearing the story of the Lord calling Gideon and if you go back and read that story, Gideon is like, okay, if this is truly from God, let me have this sign. Let me have this sign and once he is convinced that, yes, this is of God, gideon is like yeah, just give me 500, men I don't need thousands, I just need 500.
Speaker 1:However many it takes to make it happen, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he goes into battle with just 500 men, but he is convinced, confident, secure in his conviction that this is of God. And if you truly are convicted by the Lord to do something, then you don't need to second guess it, because he will make it happen. I always think about the difference between. I love dogs, you know how I love dogs, but have you ever noticed how a dog always wants to lead, the dog always wants to be out in front, but he doesn't know where you're going, and the dog is always looking back at you to see are we going this way?
Speaker 3:I wanna lead, but I don't know where we're going Well.
Speaker 2:That's death for a pastor or a bishop or any sort of spiritual leader. If you communicate insecurity, if you communicate indecisiveness, if you communicate that you don't trust the Lord, why would they follow you? So if you make up your mind that it is of God, then you just go with it Now. If it's not, you'll learn pretty soon. Oh okay that was not of God.
Speaker 1:That failed. That was of me, I've been fortunate.
Speaker 2:Thank you, lord. I've been fortunate that that has not happened yet, but humility is a big part of that. I mean discerning humbly, as I said, dialogue with people humbly, to make sure, before you announce the vision, make sure you believe the vision.
Speaker 3:That's good. I've been thinking about this, the confidence in the vision, and my mind goes to a movie, to William Wallace giving his big battle scene speech to the men.
Speaker 1:Brave heart for those ladies in the audience who doesn't know who William Wallace is.
Speaker 3:But I pulled it up because I love it. During this really tense scene where it looks like they're just going to lose this battle, one of the soldiers says fight against that. No, we will run and we will live. And the famous part is when he says I fight and you may die, run and you will live at least a while and dying in your beds many years from now. Would you be willing to trade All the days, from this day to that one, for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom?
Speaker 3:And there's just something so powerful and moving and convicting, but there's, there's something in that that you can imagine if it was like, if you wavered and is like or that you know that maybe that's just me, you know, or like, or or you know maybe it won't be worth it or like. But there's the, the steadfastness that the security I think is a good, is a good fruit of that confidence to like, even if there is a mistake. There's always, you know, reckons, you know there's there's Asking for, you know forgiveness and second chance, move forward in a different way, but the, the steadfastness and the confidence to to say, like this is where we're going, this is where we're going and it's worth it. It's going to be worth it, everything is going to be good. Like, will you come with me on this journey? Like, whatever it is, a retreat to we're building the church, or like fighting for your lives, there's, there's a, there's a security. Even in the face of something that feels Threatening, you know, or difficult, there's a security.
Speaker 3:Like you're saying, and I know a lot of what you're saying is just, you know.
Speaker 2:Let me give you a good example from the history of our archdiocese. The sisters of mercy had a hospital in downtown Oklahoma City and in 1973 they announced we're moving the hospital north to a cow pasture 1973. I Don't know what the population of Oklahoma City would have been at that time, but nowhere near what it is today. And the nuns are like removing north. And People were like what are you crazy? And when lives out there, who's going to be able to go to the hospital? You're downtown, you're, you're in a good location. And they're like no, now we're gonna build for the future. And they did it as only nuns can do.
Speaker 2:If you really want to find visionary leaders, look at women, religious and what they have been able to do. Well, look what saint at saint made her a saint for her time. Sister Barbara Joseph has been able to do with homeless right ministry in our archdiocese. I mean they make incredible Leaders, visionary leaders because they are women of profound prayer, discernment and trust in the will of God. It's good, and they make things happen that you think. How did you do that? Yes, sister Maria is another example of that the work that she's done with the elderly and the you know the dying what she has been able to accomplish.
Speaker 3:So visionary leadership. Last question for me on this, because it's just so good and and and Jason's a very practical guy. You're a very practical guy. I'm gifted with being completely abstract but not being creative, which is interesting. But but but this, when, when you receive a vision and and then you, you, you almost put it to paper or you, you grab some of the practical Data points like this doesn't make sense it's a cow pasture and nobody will come.
Speaker 3:It's a church. We can't afford that, like it. And so, being someone who is practical, what is that? What is that tension? Like to put the trust and the conviction even before the, the practical mindedness for you, the practical person at some point has to give way to the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:I Mean it's good to be practical, but at some point you have to. You have to say to yourself okay, this is not my project, it's the Lord's, you gotta surrender. You surrender to it exactly, you surrender to it.
Speaker 3:It's good.
Speaker 1:It's good. Oh, that's awesome. Father goons, thank you so much for hopping on and discussing with us and Telling us all about Alex and I's college days. And thank all of you for listening. This has been red dirt Catholics I'm Jace, he's Alex and he's father goings. Make sure to subscribe and be on the lookout for new episodes and share the podcast with your family or friends and we'll see you next time. Thanks, oh.