Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Communication and Leadership (ft. Rhonda McMillin)
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Jayce and Alex sit down with Rhonda McMillin, director of Human Resources for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, to discuss effective communication and leadership.
Their conversation centers on the craft of addressing behavior and issues without compromising personal character, thus upholding the dignity of all involved. Rhonda imparts her wisdom on setting the right tone for a difficult discussion, the underrated power of silence for thoughtful responses, and the role of prayer in the quest for resolution.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Welcome everybody to Red Dirt Catholics. I'm Jace, your host, with Alex Sanchez and Rhonda. We're super excited to have you, rhonda McMillan, who's the director of HR for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City. Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:It was Super Bowl Sunday. I looked up a stat that $24.5 billion were wagered on the Super Bowl this year how much of that did you contribute?
Speaker 1:Bowl this year how much of that did you contribute? I did not.
Speaker 2:I contributed actually zero into that explicit pool.
Speaker 3:But I was at my best.
Speaker 2:It was like a Super Bowl slash my best friend's going away party, so we had all the guys over. It was super fun. But looking at the, prop bets for the Super Bowl is actually really funny. A ridiculous amount of things that you can bet on, like there was an over under on like how long the national anthem was going to be over under 90.5 seconds and stuff.
Speaker 3:I was wondering how much of that was actually on football and not something like that's funny, there was there. No, there is one there. The overunder was eight.
Speaker 2:We were counting, so we looked up all the lines and we all guessed, but nobody put any money on anything. But yeah, that one was that actually went under the Taylor Swift one, as far as I understood. And then the one that everyone got the most hyped about was the Star Spangled Banner, because I think it was the first one, but Reba hit the over of going over 90 seconds.
Speaker 3:I'm nodding like I know what over under means. Just going like that.
Speaker 2:It was more than 91 seconds or under 91 seconds.
Speaker 3:Oh, give or take Okay.
Speaker 2:So they set the lines. That was interesting. What was the? You were just telling me that your paying attention to football has waned in the advent of your fantasy loss in the playoffs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ever since I lost to someone who, I don't want to talk about that loss. But yeah, I just I shifted gears and my thoughtless scrolling has gone elsewhere. So, yeah, I didn't follow it. I had friends and family like hey, who you cheering for? And I was like I literally forgot. I was like what are?
Speaker 3:you talking about Just in life, or, oh, it's your voice?
Speaker 1:So yeah, I was totally unplugged, but that is funny to hear like there's a game within a game with like Taylor Swift stuff and the anthem that's wild.
Speaker 2:It's super funny. I really. I always like the food with it. For ours we went full blown. We had like six different trays of wings from Buffalo Wild.
Speaker 3:Wings.
Speaker 2:Wow, pigs in a blanket. Pigs in a blanket. Quok. No quok but queso. Oh yeah, we had like stuffed bacon wrapped jalapeno poppers. Nice, it was like it's the best. It was the best. I'm not a, I've never eaten particularly healthy Shocker for everyone, but man, it was like the best food.
Speaker 1:So good. What do you like eating at the Super Bowl? Well, I was going to say the thing that I've appreciated I don't know, maybe the most, but maybe this year. I just watched a few of the videos on the halftime show and it was just like reminiscent of the past, all of these big hits from you know, like the late 90s, early 2000s, and that was funny to see, like all of that. But I always wondered like how they get, how they choose like the halftime show, because it's always like people like 15, 20 years past their prime.
Speaker 3:It's so weird. I don't know if they book it 20 years in advance or whatever.
Speaker 1:They probably have to reach a wide range of ages.
Speaker 3:And so they have to find someone that's been around for a while maybe this year I appreciated who they had.
Speaker 2:They don't pay you for your services Really Doing the halftime show at the Super Bowl, Because they would state that the publicity that you get like the amount of streams that Usher's song got after that will more than pay for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it got me.
Speaker 2:So you do it for free? Essentially, I wonder if they pay for yeah, you got me, so you?
Speaker 3:do it for free. Essentially, I wonder if they pay for the show, for the cost of putting it on.
Speaker 2:Avery says that they do.
Speaker 3:Getting it on. Yeah Whoa, so that's all really interesting.
Speaker 2:The halftime show, I was like I could have taken it or leaving it.
Speaker 1:Edit that out, Avery. It's not true. I only knew one song, but that one song I've heard a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, it was fine I really liked. My favorite one in the last like five years was Shakira, don't say Black Eyed Peas, okay.
Speaker 1:That one was terrible, that one was absolutely terrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but Usher on Roller Skates was looking and so I really enjoyed that, but I was rooting for the 49ers. I wanted them to pull through. I was tired of the Chiefs. I'm tired of them. I had a friend of mine when I asked him who he was rooting for this is a full grown man and he just said I just want Taylor to be happy.
Speaker 3:That sounds like kind of the dialogue in my house except my husband wanted the 49ers to win for exactly those reasons you said and I wanted the Chiefs to win, because how awful would that have been for all of the Swifties if it wouldn't have happened? The poor Swifties they would have been so upset that is so funny. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that whole thing.
Speaker 1:I have loved the cultural impact that that couple has made over the last six months the new fan base.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the new fan base.
Speaker 2:like all of the talking about it, I've been here for it. I find that fascinating. But yeah, let's go ahead and get started with a prayer. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3:Amen Come Holy.
Speaker 2:Spirit, get started with a prayer in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. Amen come, holy spirit. Thank you so much for for rhonda and this opportunity to have this great conversation on how to have difficult conversations. Lord, I pray that you will enter and pierce the heart um of our, of our listeners and of our very selves as we have this conversation, and move us closer to you and help this conversation result in the salvation of souls and be able to have us bring people closer to the church in evangelization. In your name we pray, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. So difficult conversations I like stabbed my thumb. Difficult conversations you haven't always been in HR. You want to give us just like the briefest of backstories of like how you ended up where you are now how I became to be a human resource, how did you become Rhonda and? Neon lights in the pastoral center, the star.
Speaker 3:I didn't go to school for human resources. I have a business administration degree, so we learned about organizational things, but not necessarily specific to HR things, but not necessarily specific to hr.
Speaker 2:I had a career as a trainer software trainer back before I was a stay-at-home mom for several years and I did a lot of hr things and you, but you were telling us like back in the 90s.
Speaker 3:I just think this is fascinating you were teaching people how to double click yes, it was a different time or to right click yes, and you know this is I can remember classes where people would sit at the their computer, pick up the mouse and put it on the screen and try to maneuver on this it was.
Speaker 1:It was, oh my gosh I felt really smart because I knew how to do the basic things I do too right now.
Speaker 3:Yes, teaching people how to send an email it it was very new at the time to have a home computer.
Speaker 2:And now it's just something that we barely feel like we have to throw on a resume, because it's assumed that you've used a computer.
Speaker 1:Yes, you almost don't want to ask the question.
Speaker 3:So then, I think I did a lot of HR related tasks in that job. When I got into management in that role, and after I was home for a while and went back to the workforce, my first job was in human resources and it was a good fit. I really enjoyed being a part of setting kind of the vibe of the place and the environment and seeing if there was anywhere anyone that needed extra encouragement or maybe just some help in being more successful in what they're doing. That's my favorite part of it.
Speaker 2:And it was in construction.
Speaker 3:It was in construction, so like is this with?
Speaker 2:like the good old boys who are Hopping and going up and down ladders?
Speaker 3:and are swinging things.
Speaker 2:Yes, I loved it and I'm sure was there, like when I was in oil. There was like a difference in culture between those that were in the office doing like administration or the engineers and the guys that were living out on the rig, so there had to have been. You have to have a great story of the difference between the two and meeting them where they are.
Speaker 3:Interestingly, the people in the office. They all had gone to a project, a construction management school most of them from OSU, by the way, and I think they were in the roles they were in because they were able to relate with people in the office and people out in the field. I know, probably a big difference.
Speaker 3:We had a Christmas party once and it was so fun the meeting of worlds and to see how comfortable and casual and willing the guys from out in the field were in just having fun and not really being concerned about being as professional as they felt that they ought to be or someone else thought they should be. I think it set a really great tone for everybody else at the party too. A lot of us who may not be as able to let loose did I'm not one of those people I can let loose.
Speaker 2:My name is Rhonda and I like to party.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it was fun. It was a good start to HR Exactly, yes, oh my gosh, it was fun.
Speaker 3:It was a good start to HR, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's awesome. And then over the years you ended up here at the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City.
Speaker 3:I did. I spent some time working for a security guard services company that expanded and included an environmental, health and safety company with occupational drug and alcohol testing and the federal government. I worked for Department of Interior for a while, so I've had some varying experiences and this is so very different and the best way.
Speaker 2:Huh, and we ask this question in our interviews all the time of like, what do you think working for the church would be like? But you've gotten to do both sectors in HR. Has there been a large difference because it's churchy stuff, or has it just been it's just people?
Speaker 3:I would say there are differences and the differences are that united, just foundation, that we all have our united purpose and interest, that we have in why we're here, why we have these jobs, because with our skill sets a lot of us could be doing the same type of work in other industries for lack of a better word, in other industries, for lack of a better word. But we all choose to be here because we want to do more than just do work, and that is the best feeling.
Speaker 1:In all those positions did difficult conversations, kind of follow you throughout every field and things like that. It didn't really depend on the work right, it doesn't have any more.
Speaker 2:It's just there at once, not in the church.
Speaker 3:It certainly has. And another surprising thing might be that the mediation discussions I have more now, now that I work for the church Interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:And I don't know if it's because more people care enough to say something and want to make it right, or if it's just the nature of our community. We're not just co-workers that sit next to each other by day and then go home and live separate lives in the evening. Sometimes we're working with someone who might we might have kids in the same school, or we might be parishioners at the same church. So I think relationships are so much more dynamic and the need to work through problems is probably more important, and that's why I do a lot more of those types of difficult conversations.
Speaker 2:So over the course of your time, I don't think you've had so many Gosh. So over the course of your time, I don't think you've had so many. Like it has to get to a point where you almost categorize them in a way of like the different types of I'm going to have a mediation or I'm going to have this kind. Is there like a top four of like the types of conversations that you end up having?
Speaker 3:I would say mediation is the most frequent, definitely.
Speaker 2:And what does that mean exactly?
Speaker 3:It's usually related to two individuals, sometimes more, maybe a group, maybe a team that's not functioning well together because they've stopped supporting each other and not so much sabotaging each other. But maybe you don't thrive as well when you don't feel like somebody has your back.
Speaker 3:If you feel like somebody's kind of looking for ways to point out your errors or it can be really a big struggle. So I will meet with usually each person separately just to find out in their own words, and with the freedom to be able to speak openly, what they think is going on.
Speaker 1:And once I've had a chance to talk with them separately Depending on where everybody is I might have to do that again and kind of take some of the information that I've received as a whole and then come back and revisit with all of them and hopefully that's the only time and then we can meet together as a group and work through things that way, that's like a whole subset of skills within difficult conversations is not just you having them, but then being the facilitator between two people who need to have them, because there's so many skills that you'd have to like, have or learn to be able to have that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean, personally, I'm very excited to have this conversation because I think difficult conversations are just really intriguing to me and we will always have them, whether we want to or not. But it doesn't mean just because it's difficult that it has to go poorly. So, yeah, I'm excited to learn some of these things and I don't know if you have any other thoughts. With Jace's question, are there other kind of typical ones that you see, or typical patterns?
Speaker 3:I would say there are difficult conversations related to changes that need to happen whether it's related to someone's performance or the way they're interacting in the office, or even changes that aren't related to just an individual, but maybe it's the work environment or work structure is changing, and anytime there's change, that can be difficult, because change is hard and a lot of people are hesitant.
Speaker 3:So that's where it's really important how you approach the conversation, what words you choose and the tone that you set. You want to be enthusiastic and positive so that they also understand that change doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can be a great thing and it's OK to feel worried or hesitant, but in the long run it can be good. I'm glad that you said a moment ago that it's their skills that have to be learned, because that is so true it's. I said before we started talking that it's really an amazing thing that I might be someone here talking with you about having difficult conversations, because certainly back, as you know, a young person, a teenager or I grew up in a house full of sisters, so you can imagine that there were some conversations that didn't always go so smoothly, but it just takes practice.
Speaker 3:You work at it. Sayings about communication skills is that it's not practice makes perfect ever, because we'll never be perfect at it. It's practice makes better, and the more you practice, the better you get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's interesting with like a difficult conversation. Like so often there's no preparing in some ways, especially like for the first ones that you have. You know they can come out of nowhere, and there's just this, this sense of and we even talked about it when we were talking about like the, the intense needs of the human individual like to be understood and to be and to be loved, and all of that.
Speaker 2:And if you're in your first difficult conversation, you don't feel that that forms you to what your expectations are and your brain starts to shift into specific modes, like where the adrenaline goes high.
Speaker 3:Oh yes.
Speaker 2:And you become not yourself in a way, you become a dumber, more reactive version. So it's just a fascinating thing that you, you have to, you live in that space you absolutely. You know it's like at a like like I'm thinking of the hurt locker. You know, like the hurt locker is this movie. Is this movie about um, about guys who are removing landmines in?
Speaker 2:in iraq during the iraq war and like when you're coming into these crucial conversations, ronda's kind of in that way she's like got the bodysuit on there's landmines in Iraq during the Iraq war and like when you're coming into these crucial conversations.
Speaker 1:Rhonda's kind of in that way. She's like got the bodysuit on.
Speaker 2:There's a landmine somewhere. She's doing her best because, like it just, and it's not anybody's fault even which makes it even like yeah, the stakes are so high. Like how do you so? I assume one of the skills associated with that is like keeping it cool and collected, or like oh yes. So how do you even begin to develop that?
Speaker 3:What you said a moment ago about making someone feel I think you said heard, or that their value, that they're important. I think that is the key piece to having the conversation go on a better path, not always a great path, but a better path. And I think the word is empathy. And empathy is another one of those things that maybe isn't natural for everyone. That maybe isn't natural for everyone, but I think we can get better at it with practice. But so I know some of us probably do have the good skill of thinking about how we might want to be told something or how we might want to receive some information.
Speaker 3:So we'll adapt and do it that way, which is definitely a good start, but it's also not exactly empathy because we're still thinking about our own experience and assuming or going about it as though that other person's shoes and their mind and their ears, their heart, what are they hearing? How is this impacting them? And with that empathy, I can do my best to try to navigate through the words that I choose or the tone that I use, and always I try to make it about the behaviors or the issue, whatever it is, and not about the person.
Speaker 3:Not the character If I can end a conversation where I had to share some bad news with someone and they feel maybe they still have some dignity and still feel some value, because everybody has contributed value in some way, even if they were only there for a short time and whatever happened was major. They were only there for a short time and whatever happened was major. They still have. There's something that you can say to someone to make it less hurtful With that.
Speaker 1:do you feel like you more approach difficult conversations with kind of setting the tone and you kind of setting the pace, the tone of conversation, maybe where you're going to go, how you're going to address it, or do you find yourself more matching what the other person's kind of outputting?
Speaker 3:That is such a good question and both of those things are so important and kind of a mystery sometimes, Right?
Speaker 1:it's like ebb and flow.
Speaker 3:Because what I help around the archdiocescese, so sometimes I'll meet with people that I've never met before, so I won't know really how to prepare?
Speaker 1:yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:I won't know how to do what I just described, so I'll I'll come prepared, usually with a set of talking points, depending on what the situation is, if it's a mediation or something where I know why I'm going.
Speaker 3:That way I can keep things on topic and I can look at how things are worded, how I'm going to say it, so that I don't get anybody hung up on the first item because I said it a certain way and now they can't think about anything else because they're they interpreted that to be a certain way, yeah, knowing the content of the conversation that needs to be had. Yes, and then adjusting as much as I can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the fly.
Speaker 1:Man. Do you have any? I don't know, I just have my brain's going so many different ways, but do you have maybe some examples that come to mind with what this looks like to? Okay, I have some general talking points. I want to go into this and set a tone for a conversation. Maybe I have said something that the person interprets in a different way, and maybe I need to backpedal, empathize, match where they're at and then move forward or adapt. I don't know. Do you have a conversation like that that comes to mind for you?
Speaker 3:you have a conversation like that that comes to mind for you? I would say I have one that was very recent actually, and it was. I think the only word I can think of to describe it is there was probably some tension, but not really something that could be connected to any reason. So the conversation was just creating an awareness, just saying. I've noticed that whenever we meet or we're discussing anything, there seems to be an immediate vibe of there being tension. So, through that conversation and just coming in with, I think the other main word besides humility I mean besides empathy is humility, because we're not wanting to do what's best for us and our interests. It's for everyone's and also for the Lord's.
Speaker 3:We started with a prayer here. Anytime I go for one of these different types of difficult conversations, I pray on the way there. We start with a prayer. There have been times where, right in the middle of the conversation, I'll be listening and I can sense that things are going a certain way and I'll say a prayer to myself and that reminds me that this is not about me or even the other person. This is about what the Lord wants for us and the work that we're doing and the way that we're interacting with each other. You had asked I think I might have gotten off topic just then of what you just asked me.
Speaker 3:No, it's good but it was about adjusting and, oh, the conversation that I had Right.
Speaker 1:I'm back.
Speaker 3:And I think, just having that thought, that spirit of this is not a right or wrong. We're not trying, this is not a dodgeball game. We're not trying to knock each other out and only one winner. This is about finding a true resolution so we can work well together. And during that conversation, some things came out that were not even related to us. It was all about just assumptions and past experiences, and it all ended up working out really well.
Speaker 1:I think that phrase that you said just keeps going over and over in my mind of like I've noticed I've noticed that blank. Like I've noticed that there's tension when we talk about this. I've noticed something and I think I'm just kind of piecing some of the stuff you're saying together like you don't attribute some of the like you don't attribute negative behavior or whatever to like character, um, and that even comes out in the way that you phrase things. Like you're not, you're not assigning meaning to anything you're like I've noticed that there's tension.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that you're an argumentative person, right. I'm not saying that you're like a divisive person, but I've I've noticed that when we're in these situations, that there seems to be some tension and that this seems like a very like kind of curious, kind of like humble, like I'm interested to, to know if you see that, if you see that too and help me make sense of that. Um, that's just really good.
Speaker 3:It just feels real, like slow moving, you know, and but with that outlook of I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm not trying to make you see the error of your ways, but seeing if there's a way to to move forward together or to Help help us relate in a better way and being open to the fact that I might be wrong, that this is what I'm sensing, but this is our chance to talk, to see if, maybe, maybe, that's not even the way that it really is, and then even better, because that was an even better, even easier conversation so so what else goes into the preparation for you as you're, as you're coming, as you're heading into?
Speaker 2:uh, maybe, maybe, this is one you know whether it could. It doesn't even have to be like within hr. You know it could be with like a child or a spouse, or you know what else goes through your brain as you're preparing for that.
Speaker 3:It would definitely be thinking about the conversation, what the topic is, and if it's something that is, I would say I don't want to call it bad news, but something that is not what the other person is expecting and it might come as a shock to them. I will design my questions a certain way, because the last thing that I want to do is put someone in the hot seat for lack of a better word. I don't want someone to feel instantly tense and worried because they're meeting with HR, because that has a connotation to it. So I'll go in depending on what the situation is, prepared to start it off with the right tone. I also don't want to give somebody a false sense of security or relief if it truly is a serious matter. So I'll prepare that way. I'll usually have my kind of opening for lack of a better word Got the opening line.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my opening statement to try to set the tone and sometimes that is acknowledging that this is going to be a difficult conversation and saying you know something like I have some disappointing news.
Speaker 1:That's very clear, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that way you're not giving anyone. You don't want to make someone feel that you're trying to dupe them or that you're not sincere that you're not taking it as seriously as you know they're going to, so I work on that for sure. That's really good Setting that tone before I ever have that conversation.
Speaker 2:That absolutely makes sense. How do you feel that the role of like I like how Alex just kind of mentioned clarity in that, and that strikes me as something that the more clear you can be in the way that you're clear and empathetic. You know there's like probably a balance.
Speaker 2:Like you, you probably say something a little bit too clearly and it comes off as blunt yeah, blunt or rude or whatever it is um, but I I was wondering if I, as you were talking about that, I was like I bet you that opening line isn't like paragraphs long or or anything like that that that there that probably people who are best at having these difficult conversations have a shorter thesis as it were, to the conversation and I wondered if brevity was really important within that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, because I think that the goal most of the time is to listen, to hear what the other person has to say, because a lot of the time you're meeting with them to allow them a chance to respond to whatever it is, whatever the concern or the issue is, and if that's the purpose, then there shouldn't be a lot of talking that I'm doing or the other person who's having that you know, who's initiated that discussion is doing, but allowing that person their time.
Speaker 1:Which is so hard when you come in with your list of things that you want to point out right First, is you know you did this, second you did this. But to come with the listening approach is really really difficult.
Speaker 3:And another thing that comes probably with practice is being comfortable with silence, because a lot of the time you'll be waiting for the person to collect their thoughts, and that's okay I think a lot comes from those times would say that after a brief period of silence, more truth comes out than in other times when someone is really quick to respond and it's not an easy few moments or a few seconds to allow that to happen, but it's really important.
Speaker 2:So you probably even encourage people to take their time. Absolutely yes, and responding in some of those ways. And that's not normal, like when I'm thinking of, like if I'm in a job interview or something like that like. Our natural thought is like-. Be quick on your feet, be quick, figure it out Like don't take two minutes to come up with the answer to each question, otherwise, I'm gonna. They're gonna think I'm slow with it or whatever it is, but that's almost a skill.
Speaker 1:It is for the person who's taking their time for a moment for them too, because they have to be comfortable with it and even them being able to say could I, could I have a second to to collect my thoughts?
Speaker 3:yeah you're so right. I noticed that when someone in an interview, when they really take a moment to hear the question, to truly think about what it's asking, and not immediately answering. Of course, sometimes you just know because maybe you were anticipating the question and you already had your answer ready. And all of that is great anticipating the question and you already had your answer ready and all of that is great.
Speaker 1:But I think someone who really does give it some thought is very good. You know your question and also what you were bringing up about, like the opening phrase. There's one phrase that sticks out like in my life as I look back on difficult conversations, and it all happened when I was on the receiving end and then I took that same phrase as like wow, this is something that's really clear and empathetic. And the phrase was um, like hey, can I, can I be honest with you about something? And that's that was. That was kind of what it was and like whether it was like you know something that you did like hurt me, or I felt like this or that. But like that phrase of hey, can I, can I be honest with you about something, and I remember years, years ago, uh, stuck with me like a good, difficult conversation stuck with me, but it was a friend of mine from from focus, and this is funny situation where, um, we were together and he was asking like hey, do you want to get dinner tonight? And we were in Florida for the training and I was like, yeah, man, that sounds great.
Speaker 1:And about 30 minutes later there was another dad that came up and and I was still with my buddy, kenny, at the time, and another dad came up and was like, hey, man, like there's a whole bunch of us dads are going to go to the, the pub and hang out and then we're going to go do this and that I'm like, would you want to come?
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome. When he's like he's like tonight he's like perfect, I'll be there. And I totally forgot I had just committed to my friend that was next to me and as we were walking and talking he said hey, alex, can I be honest with you about something? He's like normally it wouldn't be a big deal if you wanted to do something else and committed something else, but but because I want to help you, be a man of your word, I want to ask you to stay committed to this first thing that you committed to me and to spend, to spend the time like the evening with me. And I was just like so taken aback about like the, the clarity and also the honesty, and I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right, and I just can't say the other thing, but it was like such a good redirect and such a clear, like he wasn't coming from a place of like what the heck man you?
Speaker 1:know, what's your problem? How'd you forget? And like all this kind of stuff. It was so like hey, can I talk with you about something? Can I be honest with you? So I think these difficult conversations, like we could be afraid of them, like even like as leaders talking to people that we lead, or family members or friends or whatever, but when they go well, like they can really be so impactful years down the road Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Probably more impactful than like really really easy conversations and like road times, like you read in a ton of marriage books. Like you know, your fights and how you fight is what really builds intimacy over the time. You know, within a marriage and like in any relationship, like the ability to move past something that's difficult, like trust, has to grow exponentially.
Speaker 3:The ability to communicate his needs, what he needed from you and his expectations. That's a word that I use a lot in different presentations. That I do is expectations. We don't know that we're disappointing someone or hurting someone's feelings if they haven't shared what they expect from us, and that sounds like exactly what your friend did.
Speaker 2:I had a question. Did you have something?
Speaker 1:No, I'll save it.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about what you were saying With the conversations that you can have and there's a lot of listening involved and that we want to just put ourselves in their mind. But sometimes what makes the conversations difficult is that they don't know how they're feeling about a particular thing or what their opinion is on something or what their opinion is on something, but something is off and there can be something off and it's hard to put words to it. So you have to almost go into a diagnostic mode and I was curious if you had any particular questions that, if you're in that place, that you would ask. That disarms and helps people understand themselves. You know and can shine light in those areas of mystery when stakes are high.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. If someone is having a hard time expressing themselves, I will ask them if there's anything about what I've read to them or what I've said to them that maybe doesn't sound the way that they remember, just maybe a question that they'll be able to answer, maybe not have to come up with the full response on their own, but be able to at least respond to a portion of it so going from more wide.
Speaker 2:what is the problem, man? To essentially, how do you?
Speaker 3:feel about this thing?
Speaker 2:Yes, we feel good this one oh, we feel good.
Speaker 1:This one, you know, I mean, it's really like just like, just deep, like increase um incrementally almost. Yeah, like incrementally, just like shuffle it through um, and checking your own wording to see if, like what, the way you've asked something is like a stumbling block for the person, or there's, there's like a language issue, or yes, there's another thing that I say in these presentations that I do about communication.
Speaker 3:I call it the pause and it's really. It can change everything if you just allow yourself a few seconds. Be okay with awkwardness if it takes longer than what seems natural to find the best word or to adjust and find the best tone, Because there's that ripple effect, that butterfly effect, where we choose this word they hear that, and that's what they latch on to, and then they don't hear anything else besides that one word, and then their response is in response to that particular choice of words.
Speaker 3:So, allowing yourself just those few seconds even to really find the right word, even if it's not grammatically correct, or you make up your own word, that's close. You can say I felt kind of uncomfortable-ish. I mean, that's a way of saying something that might be less alarming or put somebody on the defense than to say, um, I, I felt really uncomfortable by this. You know just, there's just a way of of finding taking a pause to find the right word, the right way to say it.
Speaker 1:It's good, it's good. I was thinking about, uh, uh, I, I guess where my, where my head goes is so difficult conversations. So, as a leader needing to have difficult conversations with people for various reasons, whether maybe you have mediation, maybe there's a change, um, but I guess are there some, uh, are there some pitfalls that you feel like uh can be avoided when it comes to difficult conversations, Maybe when you're either initiating them or maybe on the receiving end? But I, you know, like I've found, when you do X, Y or Z, if I say something, if I do you know something, or um, are there, are there pitfalls that you feel like you've noticed in difficult conversations, when things tend to go poorly?
Speaker 1:that can be avoided.
Speaker 3:What I mentioned earlier about the need to be right. I think that is where a lot of challenges happen. Of any kind of success that might come out of a difficult conversation is really jeopardized, because then it becomes not about making Exactly, not about people, not about what's best, but being the one that's right.
Speaker 2:Prevails.
Speaker 3:That prevails, and that's something where I think I I joked about how I'm surprised that you know, all these years later, I might actually be somebody who can offer some suggestions about this, because that's probably that. That's probably been my.
Speaker 2:My biggest obstacle is being able to go into a conversation and having it just be about making everything better and not coming out as the one who was right or said it the best way, or had the lowest blow, or whatever it is, yeah, the feeling of the need to win, the competitive nature that come out, which is like a kind of a primal thing you know survival thing. And it makes sense that that piece of the brain can be triggered when you're in a high stakes conversation.
Speaker 3:You mentioned earlier, jace, about how people can actually have a physical reaction to difficult conversations, actually have a physical reaction to difficult conversations and that's something else that I think I have learned. Those can be major pitfalls when you see someone kind of lock up because of the stress of that kind of adrenaline fight or flight happening.
Speaker 1:So um I that is something that I I have, I've learned I probably just over, having experienced it so many times, I am able to recognize a little sooner yeah, and and navigate that a little better and and put them at ease yeah, there's a lot of um, just like similarities that like what I'm hearing with like, even like with counseling too, like there's a lot of similar ways of relating, just like things that I would try to focus on or take into consideration or notice about the other person, but I was going to say what was it, what could it be, what could it be?
Speaker 3:Counseling. It's just right there.
Speaker 2:Well, while we go through the deep recesses, you get lost in there you get lost.
Speaker 3:What a great place to be. It's like a national park really lost.
Speaker 1:You know what a great place to be. You know it's like a national park.
Speaker 2:Really, I, I had something, um, or you know, I was wondering if there's, like, if you have a greatest hits track of of a story of like a massive success when it comes to a crucial conversation that just like went well and you could like give us some context within that and like, even maybe highlight some of these principles that we've discussed in those and how they were executed, and then maybe one that just like, went off the rails okay for you know, for fun and like highlight, like the things that you know, maybe this was before you uh, garnered your experience and you were, you were trying to win, or whatever it was.
Speaker 2:I find that stories and applying them within there would be a really cool idea, and I know it's put you on the spot a little bit.
Speaker 3:I thought of one. As we were talking about the physical response, I started thinking about one that happened. It's been many years ago, but, um, it was a. The subject matter may have been just about the most difficult subject matter that I've had to meet with someone to talk about um, and it can also be complicated by knowing someone. You've known this person for so long, and then you you receive some information about them and you have to talk to them about it and it's something that's that's surprising to you and and you know, you have to you have to maintain your composure and not approach it from a personal angle.
Speaker 3:But as I started questioning him and he started realizing what it was about, he started having that physical reaction that was so severe that it frightened me. Not a physical reaction like a violent type reaction, not at all, but just his body started reacting and I was concerned about his medical state.
Speaker 1:Wow, because it's so overwhelming for him.
Speaker 3:It was so overwhelming that he started shaking violently, and so that was one of those times where it was absolutely about silence, just letting him collect for a moment, not continuing, not pushing for more information, making sure he was okay, giving him water to drink and letting him compose himself. And he did, and it wasn't anything that needed any kind of care or attention from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no medical care.
Speaker 3:Yes, but it was frightening. I was worried and scared, so that's probably the most severe reaction that I've experienced with someone that I've talked with.
Speaker 1:Some others that Sorry you having to kind of bracket the personal like your own personal reactions to what had happened. Was there anything that you found helpful in that? And having a difficult conversation of like I have all of this going on, this confusion, this anger, this sadness, this whatever of like I have all of this going on, this confusion, this anger, this sadness, this whatever, but I'm going to put that here over here for the well-being of this person's conversation.
Speaker 1:Is that kind of also a skill, or is that a mindset? Is that anything else with that?
Speaker 3:I think you can incorporate your relationship with that person into the conversation if it isn't going to give them any sort of advantage. I would say is probably the closest word I can think of to giving a true and accurate response. A true and accurate response Because you do want someone to feel at ease, but you don't want them to feel so comfortable that they're not going to take it seriously. So when you know someone and you have known them for a while, you're more able to do that if you talk to them in a way that is familiar to them, that is familiar between the two of you, but also keeping the questions as the same questions that you would ask anybody else and not letting them have any leniency just because there's somebody that you've known that sounds difficult.
Speaker 3:Wow, another something that went well. I can tell you one, because it was me. I was on the other end, the other side of the conversation, where it was a new job and one of the leaders one of the leaders I had made a decision and carried out this action, and the person, the leader, did not really like how I handled it, so he called me into his office to let me know and I could sense immediately.
Speaker 1:I knew that this was not going to be a great job conversation.
Speaker 3:So when he told me I really respected that he did tell me Kind of like you and your friend you were you were appreciative that he had the um, really the courage and um and the respect for you to let you know that this was something that was not ideal, so that's what I I said to him.
Speaker 3:I thanked him and um, I said that I'm still learning the ropes, and this is exactly the feedback that that I need and I appreciate, because I won't know unless somebody tells me, and that was probably, I think, a created a mutual respect for us that lasted. The ability to just respect each other and have that humility where you can accept that maybe you do things wrong too sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, blind spots yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's, amazing man.
Speaker 1:Just going through my mind, like some of the like one of the words that came up, yeah, I went base jumping and I found everything that was in the recesses of my brain.
Speaker 1:So I'm back. I found a lot of things there actually place of like composure and being anchored and kind of like your credibility in a conversation, like not losing that to being, um, yeah, overly emotional or getting sidetracked or being too like soft in a conversation or being too direct and like having to be right. But like this really good place of ethos, like we can have hard conversations and I'm going to be okay and and I'm also having in a way, that you're going to be okay, like to physical reactions, to um, you're not feeling accused, overwhelmed, but I'm also not going to not bring up the hard things either. I don't know. This is a really, really cool place to to aim to be in a conversation and then, um, but my mom, my mind goes to times when, like I've not had that. Either I've gone in needing to be right or I've gone in and noticed a person starts to feel really uncomfortable and I'm like, well, maybe I should back out a little bit, but standing that place, of yeah right.
Speaker 1:Standing the place of like, hey, I can communicate in a way that we're going to leave this conversation better than we came in and we're going to talk about hard things, but we're going to do it in a way that you still feel valued and honored that is like such a skill man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean really, it's like just the basic human formation of acting like Jesus Right and being more like him, Like when she talks about empathy and humility like I mean, those are there. And truth still and to even tie it all back in, like we're talking about some heavy human formation, foundational things. So sometimes it's easy to not incorporate the religious aspect or just like how our faith factors into it.
Speaker 2:But I mean treating the person as a beloved son or daughter of God, you know, is like the and with dignity is the goal behind all of these like key skills that we're looking for and having these conversations and if we can like view people when we're in difficult conversations. The easiest thing for me has been to like and someone said this once I don't remember like it was some election year, I was like 14 years old or something like that. I was like real. I was so into politics when I was 14. Like I was, I was working at the capitol.
Speaker 3:I was figuring things out I was.
Speaker 2:I was all over the place and so I would just live to have tough conversations and debate people about public policy and other nonsense like that. But it just got to the point where having those conversations became more and more fruitless and people were like why are we talking about this?
Speaker 2:And would communicate it to me and eventually I don't even remember who it was at this point, but I remember this happening in high school where someone says jace, do you not understand that that person who disagrees with you on this is the prize, is infinitely valued and like, is a person and you can villainize? You know someone who has a different ideology or is hurting your work or your productivity, or being a being a nag on your team or whatever it is? Um, but just like, that reorientation of they're the prize is something that's been infinitely helpful to me entering into those types of conversations, because it's like oh, this is you know, even though this person may be causing a problem, they themselves are not a problem right, you know and that's that's a really hard thing to do in the moment sometimes, especially if it like comes out of nowhere and we're in our brain is in that soup of uh, soup of chemicals that are telling us to freak out.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, that's my favorite, that's my the best advice that I've had, going into those conversations, that they are a prize even if you know the move is to not be on your team anymore, to not be roommates anymore or whatever it is. You know, but that's really real.
Speaker 2:Rhonda, did you have any other? You know, last thoughts as we wind it down and land a plane of like, if there was, if there was something that you wanted to like, really highlight for somebody as they're, maybe they're, maybe they're thinking about talking to their you know parent confronting their parent about a a problem that they're having, or maybe it's with a son or a daughter and they're working up the courage to like enter into that moment. What's the last bit of encouragement that you'd give them?
Speaker 3:I would say maybe a few different things rolled in to the approach, and one of them being that it's not about the person, it's not that, like you were saying, it's not the individual themselves that might be creating a struggle or that you're having a struggle with. It's the behaviors. Focusing on the changes that need to happen in behavior and empathy happen in behavior and empathy being able to do your best to try to be in the understanding that they're having.
Speaker 3:What are they hearing, how are they processing it? What is their heart and their mind thinking, feeling when they hear this from you? And try to approach it with the words and the tone that will be most impactful and received, and also that it takes practice.
Speaker 1:So the first thing that comes to mind when you say that and I know we're finishing up is most people would probably have or at least I would have, like a fear of like if I go in this conversation I'm wanting to say these things, but then I listen, what if I'm? What if I end up listening and I don't, I don't say the things right, like where the person doesn't end up listening back to these points that we need to talk about. But would you say that when you enter in and you really are seeking to listen, that the person in turn will end up listening better to what you?
Speaker 3:have to say as well that's the case. Yes, yes, they become. They trust you, they become more open to sharing because they know that you are there as someone that just wants the best for them too.
Speaker 2:It's good stuff. That's great stuff, Rhonda. Thank you so much for being with us today We've been Red Dirt Catholics and we'll see you guys next time. Thank you, ciao, thank you.