Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Religion of the Day - Part 1
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Exploring the intersection of modern secularism and ancient gnosticism with "The Religion of the Day" from the University of Mary, the follow-up publication to "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission."
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
So, jace, I heard Summit was a hit this past week yeah it was awesome.
Speaker 1:We had the most. I think we had close to 300 people there. We had Archbishop there last night and, yeah, we had the longest lines for confession that we've had throughout. So it's cool to like get to that place when the event's been running for two years straight, you know that's awesome that there's that there's growth and that it hits a. It hits a particular need.
Speaker 2:That's awesome what do you attribute it to? The fact that archbishop was there.
Speaker 1:Oh the biggest bumps are always when Archbishop is there. Yeah, that's easy, I mean. Otherwise it averages like between 150 and 200 typically.
Speaker 2:Okay, nice. And for those that don't know listeners, what's Summit?
Speaker 1:Summit is every third Thursday at the cathedral. It's the best date night with Jesus in town. We have tons of candles, adoration, great music accompanying either praise and worship music, which we've done a lot of time, but we're also throwing in some more traditional music nights as well with Nolan and all of those guys who are great organists and cantors. So a little bit of something for everybody within there. But yeah, it's just been something that came out of the Eucharistic revival that my office was able to take the lead on and yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1:It's funny, though, um I was, we were, I was having dinner with um, with friends, uh Connor, who works here at the Archdiocese in Jackson, who is our summer camp guy. Uh, beforehand we were at Clark crew and it was kind of. We were just kind of like not, I was like I want to get there at like 530 or 545. And they're like why, dude? Like it takes us 20 minutes to set it up, and I was like I just always do, you know, just in case you know, something goes wrong. It takes a little bit longer. We get there right at about 6. But when we get there, there was some sort of ghost or specter that was locking every door after Father Rick was unlocking the door. Are you being serious?
Speaker 2:I'm serious, well okay, don't know if it was a ghost.
Speaker 1:Someone was running around locking the doors that didn't need to be relocked. So we get there and normally the priests and the seminarians that are there are having a really nice dinner across the way. So when I get there, it's really important that everything's unlocked, otherwise I have to just start calling a whole bunch of people trying to get someone to unlock the door. The solution is get a key Jace, which is what we're doing now.
Speaker 1:But we get there, couldn't get into the sacristy and that's where everything just like the spotlight, all of it, the candles, that's all in there in the sacristy. So had to wait, hurry up and wait for like 20 minutes to figure it out. We couldn't set up the food for a little bit. And then so that was all happening and Father Rick was like I unlocked it before I left for McGinnis, like 20 minutes before you got there, and I was like, wow, someone's locking the doors, you know. And then when we finish the adoration part of Summit, we all move over to the Connor Center and we were in the Connor Center setting it up when someone unlocked it for us. But in between the time that Summit started and, uh, our setup person went over there. It was locked and we couldn't get in um, so it, it was weird that there was just somebody locking doors for us.
Speaker 2:So I'm being really helpful so yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1:So like making sure, like you know, and I when I when I told father ricky was like what is going? On you know it was, it was, it was humorous, but you having a key will solve a lot of that, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, it will solve a lot of those problems.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to talk to antonio and, uh, and get a key. I've been watching um, peter had already seen the original or I guess really kind of most of the original trilogy of star wars. Oh nice, um. But I kind of just like decided, I was like I want to do the prequels now I want to show him some of this stuff, and so we've been working our way through and he's been really enjoying that, which has been awesome, that's super cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like my childhood in a way. You know, like episode one, like I saw that was on. Those are one of the first movies I remember seeing in theaters when I was five. What's?
Speaker 2:the one with jar jar binks in it, that's episode one.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's, I remember that one in the theater specifically yeah, yeah, episode one, like as a piece of cinema it's like not the best, but it has the best lightsaber duel in the entirety of the series and that's what's important I can tell you like it a little bit, I like it a little bit, I hate. I hate jar jar binks and all of that, but I like it because of that particular duel. The music from it, all of it is just so good. That's fun.
Speaker 2:One of my favorites.
Speaker 1:But what's new?
Speaker 2:with you. You know, I'm just grateful for coffee. This morning I came into the Pastoral Center here and got to put the right amount of cream in a good cup of coffee and it was great.
Speaker 2:What is the right amount of cream? About four cup of coffee, and it was great. What is the right amount of cream? About four of those little half and half cups? Yeah, Four half and half cups. I went to Brahms the other day. Grayson agreed to wake up early to help with some things and so I pulled him out of bed, went and got a bag of biscuits for the family and I came back with a coffee Because Emily's in her first trimester and wants no coffee, so I'm seldomly brewing it in the morning and I asked the guy to give me cream and he gave me two cups of the cream and the thing was super large and I was about to ask for more. Like, come on, like this huge coffee, two little tiny cups. And I was like I'm being a diva, I'll just take the two cups. But today on Archdiocese's cup, this big, I enjoyed my four little cups I have. Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just a whatever's there coffee kind of person and also like whatever requires minimum effort, if there's like an, if it's right there, but if they're in those tiny little cups like I'm not there for that I'm taking it black yeah, um like in fact I looked at. I was looking at the cream options this morning.
Speaker 2:Looking at the coffee I was like yeah it kind of depends what's going on, like I don't know, at a coffee shop I enjoy a brevet latte which is cream and it's steamed or whatever. But like father rex, when I have coffee with him he does a french press. Just black is is great, it's perfect black, I don't know. It's kind of interesting. I'm like I'll take it several ways, but if it's cream, a generous amount, if cream, yes.
Speaker 1:Big yes to the cream that reminds me of that. I also saw that new movie, Civil War. I don't know if you've heard about it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that sounds fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if you've heard about it. Oh, that sounds fun. Yeah, it's a really interesting thought process. It's a movie that's based in, like if the United States went to civil war today, what? Would it look like and it follows some journalists throughout the deal. But it's interesting. This isn't a spoiler, it's like real. Very early you can tell it's a movie by this. Butifornia and texas come like, join forces to fight the united states government. That's the.
Speaker 2:That's the narrative and that's an interesting, I think the president, like kind of goes fascist or something like that.
Speaker 1:But it really isn't about the politics of it. Like the movie, it's just like the human condition of like what war happened, like what would war look like, and it's actually really cool. Um, like looking at the chaos that comes from it, the fallenness that can come from it, and like we, we can be. So we can just see the opposition as the opposition to whatever our ideological views are. But this movie does a really good job of just like that's a human being. Hmm, I'm excited that you're um, so it was really good. I went and saw it um up in p town actually with the father carson. It was great, nice anyway.
Speaker 2:But we're gonna be talking about the sequel to from christendom to apostolic mission, which is called the religion of the day, which is exciting the day and for you following on, following on YouTube, here's a look at the title, the cover there Religion of the Day by University of Mary.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's take a prayer and then start talking about that. In the name of the Father, son, holy Spirit. Amen, come, holy Spirit. We thank you so much for the opportunity for James and I to grow together and be here on this podcast. Lord, I pray that you open all of our hearts um to hear the truth of what is happening today in the, in the religion of the day, and that we'll be motivated and hear and hear this bad news and be motivated to spread the good news. In your name, we pray amen, amen, father, son, holy spirit, amen. So let's, what is this like? Why? Why did from christendom to apostolic mission need a sequel? We did four episodes about it yeah, we did which and if you haven't, you you might go watch.
Speaker 1:Listen to those if you're, if you or if you don't remember yeah, because I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 2:We'll have a link in the show notes there to that. But the I don't know. I love that book was transformative and, I think, put in an intellectual way. You know quite clearly that there's been a change of the ages, but it also illustrated this, you know, change of the age from a time when the cultural backdrop, you know, is congruent with Christianity to where it's hostile to it, you know. So going from Christendom to apostolic. But it also, like the book, kind of began unpacking this idea of a ruling narrative vision, similar to worldview, though Jason Monsignor Shea got in a little bit of a debate on that on our podcast. Not really a debate, but Jason asked you know, why not worldview? And he gave a very philosophical kind of answer.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Do you remember? Oh, that's funny. I knew he would have a really good answer for it.
Speaker 2:He was kind of saying the fathers, the church fathers, you know, really had. There's something important about the idea of vision. You know I was like there's no shot that I debated him. You know you're kind of asking in a, in a, in a playful way.
Speaker 2:I think that you know why he chose the difference, but you know that that ruling narrative vision is like the different constructs and lenses of life that you see the world through, some that you understand, some that you've not questioned, and these are, you know, what success looks like, what your faith is, what your political thoughts are, what your upbringing is, cultural paradigms, like it's a conglomeration of lots of things that influence us and I feel like part of the reason for the sequel is that Monsignor Shayna's team are calling out something we might not see, that's really probably unintentionally blended in with our own ruling narrative vision and as Christians, incidentally, but also that a way in which a lot of the world is viewing the world and so he calls it the religion of the day and, spoiler alert, that's what we're going to unpack is this you know what he's calling the religion of the day and when we talk about this religion of the day, the the important thing to realize, like the first, the first thing that the book like kind of makes a succinct argument on, is that we act like.
Speaker 1:It can be tempting for us to say, well, we live in a really secular, non-religious society, and the book kind of addresses that head on right away and it says that, no, we actually live in a highly religious society and that we all share the same religion, even us as Catholics. It has seeped into our ruling, imaginative vision. It has seeped into the way we practice our faith in our own religion. So it might be a secular religion, but make no mistake that it is a religion of the day and which I think that a high percentage of people would say I'm not religious.
Speaker 2:You are, and he has a little section of one of these earlier chapters, if you read along with us, where he kind of unpacks that like it's not a religion, you know with air quotes, but it has all the aspects of a religion and even in its earliest roots there were parts of this that influenced it, that had liturgies and things like that that they've stripped because it wouldn't make sense, yeah, and the book talks about, about like, why does it need to be a religion?
Speaker 1:and reality is like, as time-bound human beings with past, presence and futures, like for us to function, there has to be hope, right, and so secularism would fail and not be interesting as a uh, as a movement if it didn't try to offer or solve the problems.
Speaker 1:If it didn't have some illusion of hope, if it didn't have some illusion of hope to what they were bringing towards, and that's kind of what it's built around. So really, to start with, we want to give an intro to what the book is and where we're going, and kind of an intro to where we're going over the course of this series, because it's going to take us multiple episodes at least four to kind of really unpack and our hope is to have Monsignor Shea on the podcast again. We're in the process of making that happen, so we're kind of presuming the Holy Spirit will make that happen for us, which is great, and the introduction is actually by someone else I want to have on the podcast sometime. Dr Jonathan Reyes is one of my favorite dudes, yeah.
Speaker 2:The introduction is totally, totally enjoyable. It's a great read and primes you well for the book. I actually I loved his first words, the introduction, and I think this is probably the challenge for us as we listen to these few episodes. His first words were it is possible to do many Catholic things and yet not have a Catholic mind, and so for me that you know it was kind of a jab, but it was also like I'm excited, like okay, yeah, help me conform my mind more.
Speaker 1:Tell me more, tell me more. Tell me how brutally hopeless I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's my mind? Not as catholic as it ought to be, you know yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So today we're going to be unpacking just like an overview of what the religion of the day is, the structure where, what heresy is it really like stemming from, and that's what we're going to be going from today. Next episode, we're going to dive, like do a little bit of a deeper dive philosophically into 12 major aspects of the modern progressive religion, which is what we'll be talking about, and then the next one we'll be going over a few more notes on that, but something about catching all of the diseases of the world. James, do you want to discuss a little bit about what that means by that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So you know, like Jace mentioned, this first episode is an overview. Next one we'll dive real deep and then there's a part where the book addresses how this kind of comes into the church, like these views, and we might be tempted to be really upset and want to fight against that which is rightly the word to some degree to fight against it. But then he also there's a whole chapter which we'll cover in that probably third episode I would guess that he talks about well, this was actually by God's design that the church could catch the disease of the world and then, like a body does, oh, like an antibody, like a white blood cell.
Speaker 2:And so we like absorb it, absorb it and then have the ability to fight infection, attacks it from within and purifies it, creates the antibodies and the cure for it. So that alone is like a beautiful lens of hope. I think this reality that, like yes, there's evil in the church, like, yes, satan attacks the church, yes, like the reality of the world comes into the walls of the church and like that's by God's design so the body can heal it out, so really quite beautiful of a thought and I'm excited I'm having that one Gosh. Leave it to the Lord to just do some brokenness to do something cool.
Speaker 2:At the end there's kind of the last section is really kind of like the answer to this, like how we battle it within our own hearts, how Christ battles it for us and how we battle it within the church.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just kind of like what we? What do we do now? Now, we know this. How do we? How do we?
Speaker 2:fight. Super excited for the whole unfolding here.
Speaker 1:Right. So, james, what is the religion of the day?
Speaker 2:Okay so, religion of the day of the day. Okay so, religion of the day, um, the, you know, no, really. First, before I answer that, just to set a couple expectations. Like the book, like even in the answer of, like, what do we do? Now, they made it pretty clear it's not a blueprint, like this isn't, like here's a program we all need to go through, like with the book, similar to the is inviting us to do, is really inviting us to understand this at a different way and then make you know, address it in the ways appropriate for whatever we're involved in.
Speaker 2:Um, and then the, the other thing I'd want to mention and I did kind of in my in the last part there but just recognize it's important to recognize that there's a three-front battle here that we're fighting this with and the book outlines this there's, like, the christian fighting the external battle of the unbelief of a fallen world and then a battle inside the church, like, where we're battling against disloyalty, corruption, etc. But then, arguably most importantly, that gnosticism, which we'll talk about in a second, would want us to forget is the battle inside our own heart the corruption, the sin, the darkness, the unbelief within me, the pride within me. And so I think it's really important to recognize that.
Speaker 1:I think often we're challenged to want to address those first two and we have to, but neo-gnosticism, which we'll unpack a little bit, um, actually wants us to forget about that third one yeah, and it's kind of like the first, the first thing and and think about this in like in your day-to-day life like the first, the first huge, important tenant of this modern religion is that it denies the fall essentially, and says that the beginning of evil doesn't happen within individual human hearts. For us as sinners which is highly divergent from where we are as Christians, but discussing it as that it comes from these oppressive structures that we build, from organizations, from politics, from culture, like all of those things are evil and need to be done away with. It's kind of like we need to get rid of that evil and then we will be free, which is just not what it is right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Like it's something that's deep within our own hearts, within our sinful nature, from the fall from original sin.
Speaker 2:So the denial of original sin is like kind of the presupposition for the entirety of this religion of the day, yeah, of this religion of the day and almost every heresy there ever has been kind of points back to trying to deny that.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of like sinful nature to want to deny that right. I mean, how many times can you go through a day where someone's not interested in recognizing their own fault in a particular moment, or their own fault in a reason why their church isn't doing that well, or or their own role to play and whatever thing? Like we see, oh, this, this structure, this corporation, this, whatever, is bad, and I'm I'm not the problem, even though I'm a part of that, but the system is the problem?
Speaker 2:the system, the yeah um. So the religion of the day? No, thank you for highlighting that the religion of the day they're. They're going to use the word neo-gnostic throughout the book, but as they introduce that at the beginning, they make it clear that the religion of the day isn't really covering a single name and many people call it different things. I love the quote in the book. It said truth is simple, but error is manifold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we believe that and there's some truth in that, but also not you know, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you know it's kind of funny they use this. You know one cumbersome way to describe it could be modern, neo-gnostic, progressive, utopian, revolutionary religion, which is kind of a little cumbersome but all encompassing. So if you think about what those words mean, it gives you a hint of different labels. It could have Modern, neo-gnostic, progressive, utopian, revolutionary religion. For the sake of simplicity, it could be referred to as progressive religion or neo-gnosticism.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and the funny thing with that is, like with Gnosticism, like I want to talk about Gnosticism, it's just super not new. Like we've been battling gnosticism, this primal heresy, if you will, in the church, like like that was like saint augustine grappled with the gnostics in a in a really key way, and just like having the having this understanding that you yourself can help engineer, or that humans themselves can engineer their own salvation outside of a redeemer, outside of Christianity, is just not new.
Speaker 2:No, it's really not. It's in the books and outlines that wherever Christianity really prospers, gnosticism follows shortly behind. Like we even have Gnostic gospels that didn't make it into the canon, that were, you know, present there in the early church, but Gnosticism is, I don't know. To me it was compelling. There's a book similar to this that was unpacking literature that I read that challenged us to notice Gnostic roots, but it is interesting that it's been here a long time. There's kind of nothing new about it. It seems like, though, the main new thing about it in neo-Gnosticism is that it's a little less perceivable. Like it doesn't have a name.
Speaker 2:Like at that time, someone might have been Gnostic and like shared that they were Gnostic. Like they're trying to share this special knowledge or gnosis with their followers. Like, and there's a certain reality of like. Yeah, all these religions are good, christianity is really good, but there's some special things we know that you need to know to achieve your own salvation, and so there's a little less, maybe, in neo-gnosticism that we hear that idea or that temptation modernly as well, there's a little less about like. Here's this special formula or these special rules.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't use it in such grand terms like your salvation it's more, like to fill your bank account, or like to have a great family, or like to wake up in the morning? Super well, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so there's Gnosticism and Neo-Gnosticism, have these kind of shades of gray where they're kind of like infectionary, like they can kind of supplant themselves on another thought system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a parasite.
Speaker 2:And so they kind of adjust or like tune out the correct lens of something to have some Gnostic mixing into it. So since it doesn't need its own full-on creed necessarily, it can sort of supplant these lies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as a result and the book talks about this we all have you know, especially during. Like me, I have it Like I have neo-gnostic tendencies just as a result of living in our culture you know which is which was really convicting to say. And like, as I was reading this, I was like man, this, this blows. Man Like I'm not dang it. Man, like I fall victim to so many of these, you know.
Speaker 2:I had a similar reaction and for me it started like a little before I read the book. Like when I was reading the book I was like holy cow, you're putting words to some thoughts that I've been having lately, kind of examining my own like formation and thoughts.
Speaker 1:See, james is a lot more introspective and smart much more smarter than me. And so he was like, yeah, I was having these thoughts like a few weeks ago. It's just awesome, the way that the Lord works. And I was like, yeah, I was thinking about neo-gnosticism a few weeks ago, Definitely For full disclosure.
Speaker 2:I wasn't thinking of neo-gnosticism until I read a book that mentioned it before this one. But I was actually on an airplane with this, like I sat next to a guy real friendly, could tell he was like pretty secular, like he was one of those people who's like wants everyone to be happy, right, and like that's maybe the chief aim, and almost had this infectious like charismatic quality about him, like really great guy to be around A little bit. Good time Charlie maybe right, but courteous, was nice to the stewardess, nice to people around him, like very nice as well. But we get to talking and he shares like a kind of popular guy that you see on YouTube. We might not as much, but I think a lot of secular folks have probably found him and others like him. What was his name?
Speaker 2:Gosh, I'm gonna put it on his name um, but he has this, like I'd heard about it from a client of mine and I actually looked it up out of curiosity like huh, what's influencing this client of mine? Um, and he, he talks about like mind reprogramming and healing and he even uses and I'm talking about this YouTuber. He even uses like God's love, the love of God love, in ways that sound pretty Christian. He uses those in some of his works. And so at first I was like, oh, this is kind of good, like it almost sounds gospel-like some of his stuff. And so I had read about him and looked at the YouTube videos trying to understand how to evangelize my client, who's like kind of a cultural Jew, secularist guy.
Speaker 2:Anyway, this guy references the guy on the airplane, references this YouTuber, and I was like, oh yeah, I've heard about him, like seems like pretty good stuff.
Speaker 2:And I was like out of curiosity, like do you know what his faith background is? Because, like I'm a I'm a faithful Catholic, I'm a Christian, and I feel like I hear Christian in him, but I don't know if I'm just projecting that. Yeah, and so the nice guy gentleman on the airplane next to me goes that's keen that you're aware that you could project your faith into something you know, and the conversation starts to pivot and I was like, oh interesting, huh, you know, and the conversation starts to pivot and I was like, oh interesting. And I was like, so where, what's his formation in? And he's like, well, actually he wouldn't say this publicly, but and he starts to talk about this like school of enlightenment that he goes to, gosh, that he's gone to. And it's a particular one I won't mention the name for because I don't want people to get too curious into this, but it had some kind of like weird name before it, like kind of sound Greek or Roman in a way, but sounded kind of evil.
Speaker 1:And the leader of the School of Enlightenment.
Speaker 2:Just for the Just kind of evil, just for the twist, the leader of the School of Enlightenment channels an entity that's a multiple thousand year old warrior and like that was the first time I heard the language channels and entity, but I pretty well knew what it meant. Is that a demon? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And like it's a nice secular way of saying demon Right. And so I read a little bit about this, so like what I'm having in my mind cognitive dissonance is like, okay, I was projecting that this guy sounded kind of Christian, he wasn't all the way there, but it seemed like it could be good for my client. About this YouTuber, and then I realized like he's being formed by a woman who channels a demon. And then I go and read a little bit more about him, a little bit more about this school, and I realized what's happening is there's this mixture of common sense, christian thought and bull crap, like just lies, like evil, and I'm trying to like understand what it's at. And so in my conversation with him and in my research about these people, I realized that it all kind of came down to a certain reality you can be your own God, you can save yourself.
Speaker 2:The evil is out there. We're kind of these main things and it was this functional denial of original sin, denial of God as sovereign and like the mover of all things, and this lifting up of self-actualization. But mixed in it all in different, various forms, were some of these Christian thoughts and recommendations, and so it looked kind of confusing. But it got to this thing, like of what Satan said in the garden, like did he really say that? Like he just doesn't want you to be like him, yeah, and like the compelling thing about those words that I want us all to think about is like God actually does want us to be like him, like he offers us to be shares in his divine nature, but he doesn't want us to be like him because of our own merits, right, because of what we do. You know what I mean. And so to me, that little juxtaposition next to the juxtaposition on the plane, it's like all this, like modern stuff, even lots of self-help literature that I've read.
Speaker 1:It seems to be rooted in this mixture of christian thought, good human formation and some evil thought, yeah, and and it's trying to solve injustices and like, like real problems in the world. Sometimes, like, like, as we'll see that there's like, like, like racism, you know could be, could be used as a great example. Like the neo-gnostic thing of, like some of the some of the critical theory that that's coming out, um is trying to solve an evil of of that we are, that we're not loving our brethren and not treating them with well and like this idea of privilege, like, like some of that has some truth to it, but it does. It does it so far that it like destroys the idea of what a human actually is and like refutes and gets rid of it. Like the way that we like, the way that we're saw, that we solve, um, you know, like, like the abortion issue is a, is a is, is an issue that's rooted comes from neo-gnosticism.
Speaker 1:Like it sees a perceived injustice we don't see this as an injustice of that like this person shouldn't have to raise a child because they were engaged in premarital sex, but and that their whole lives are ruined as a result of that.
Speaker 1:We don't agree with that as Christians, but that's the but, that's the perceived injustice that it's trying to solve as like this is an oppressive culture that's saying that you need to have the child.
Speaker 1:So it's fascinating stuff, but what I want to root back to is that almost all of this and we wrestle with this all the time on this podcast because we're a prideful son of a guns is that it's pride, like Gnosticism's deepest root, like, frankly, why it follows Christianity around, because our chief sin is pride, the most deadly of all the sins, where all the sins come from, is from some sense of pride and the distrust that Eve had. You could argue, and the church fathers argue all the time, of whether or not that comes from that pride and adaptive and how much gray there is so that someone who, like someone who's a diehard catholic, who believes every single thing, the that the church stands for, believes, has all of the right political views, has all the right views on liturgy, whatever you want to say can, like still very, very easily be subscribed to the neo-gnostic religion.
Speaker 2:It's that adaptive, yeah, and there's like different pieces that might be more inviting for some of us to start to undermine that, like it could be the fact that I just I don't like injustices at all. Right, it could be. And so I'm tempted to, you know, see the world through a lens that all the problems out there, one that I've found kind of interesting, and I see it in myself, I see it in other people, particularly if you're like trained in business or in sales, like a lot of the literature that comes out has this kind of you know self-actualization sort of blueprint in it, and so some of them are a little more subtle, but even some.
Speaker 2:like there's a book called Think and Grow Rich. It's like classic in in, like entrepreneur and businessman stuff and like even in the title. As a Christian, you should almost think like, okay, that feels a little, a little much, but I'm forgetting the name of the guy. But, like Tony Robinson's mentor, his name might come to me, name might come to me. Um, he has a whole talk about this idea of like thinking about what you're to achieve and then it kind of coming to it coming to you?
Speaker 1:yeah, because you're focusing on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so like the universe coming to you and we hear that on youtube and different places about manifesting or I think oprah renfrew even like picked up this idea of the universe bringing something to you and you focus on it, but in um, um yeah, in in in this guy's work, uh, jim Rohn.
Speaker 2:He has like a recording, um, where he's talking. He talks about the fishermen from Galilee, you know, and he talks about Jesus and he quotes scripture, and so he's quoting all of this but his premise is like don't even worry about how you're going to get there, just focus on what the exact amount of money you're going to attain. You know, and he has this old, almost, you know, like pastor-like voice, old kind of Southern pastor-like voice when he's talking about it, and so it like has this authority where it's like, well, it feels Christian kind of, and he's teaching me this new way of focusing to get what I'm supposed to solve. You know the problem I'm supposed to solve, but that's in lots of places that might not be as provocative, but it finds its way into a lot of self-help literature, sales literature, and you know it's good to work on goals and to visualize you achieving your goals yeah, goals aren't bad Like and not everything that every self-help book like.
Speaker 1:I will still have my team read crucial conversations to learn how to work together.
Speaker 2:And I don't know that. For clarity, not every self-help book has Gnosticism in it per se, no.
Speaker 1:But they're popular because of Gnosticism.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting way to look at it, yeah, and that they're so like because we're so. We recognize our culture is highly religious. We recognize the need to be saved from something Christianity we want to be saved from ourselves. And Gnosticism, neo-gnosticism, progressive religion wants to be saved from the oppressive structures, culture, things saved from the oppressive structures, culture, things.
Speaker 2:While you say that, it just I had a thought. How would a? When we talk about like saving from things, I feel like the modern temptation law is to be saved from suffering. Yeah, you know, like, like, in some sense, like lots of things we'd be trying to achieve or to save us from loss, or save us from suffering, but like, how would a gnostic or neo-gnostic view suffering and how would it? How's a christian invited to view suffering?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, it's just purely evil, like only evil, suffering's only evil for the gnostic. For a gnostic, yeah, I mean, unless it's suffering, unless it's like, unless it's offering that you're imposing on yourself for like a greater good. I suppose, like and maybe they wouldn't see like the soreness of your muscles the day after you work out Like an osteo, wouldn't necessarily see that as suffering, even though you know in a way. Yes, I think we're talking about like a higher order of suffering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not necessarily talking pain, but suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah and and so there's nothing good about it. It needs to be eliminated and that's why so much of this like oh, you're not able to chase your hopes and dreams because you had to have a child Like that's suffering. We need to fix that. And there are certain injustices that are within some of these things. Like we said, for women's rights, as an example, there's inequality and there has been and there's been a lot of great movements over the last 100 years to restore that and to like, help us understand each other as human beings and as like we're all human beings. You know, one doesn't get treated worse than the other, but just the way we go about. It is like we choose to reject the idea that fathers have authority and the patriarchy and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. Reading this book has helped me, I think, actually be more compassionate to opposing ideologies that I might be really frustrated with. Because it's like, yeah, as Christians we actually share the same desire, like holy desire, about certain injustices, right, like let's take the one you were using, like women's rights, you know, and the importance of women. Like, yeah, totally, there's problems with how the world's handled that across time. But because our paradigms are like upside down from each other on some of these realities of life, like their solving would be to stamp out patriarchy in some way, right, and a Christian's way of looking at it is not going to have to erase other things or structures in order to solve women's inequality.
Speaker 1:No, it's the conversion of the human heart. Yeah, exactly, yeah, you know, the individual versus like it's the conversion of the human heart. Yeah, exactly, yeah, you know, the individual versus like. It's just so fascinating, but, yeah, the compassion that we can have um for somebody who's you know like. Well, a, we're entrenched in narcissism and I want to say that over and over again, because as I read this, I like, I was telling james, I was like james.
Speaker 2:This is depressing dude yeah, um, yeah, you're right. One outcome should be we see our own blindness, but then also we could recognize that someone articulating something we're just totally distaste this is depressing, dude. Yeah, yeah, you're right. One outcome should be we see our own blindness, but then also we could recognize that someone articulating something we're just totally distaste might be blind yeah, totally, and can't even see the thing that we see as Christians. I think it'd be helpful and if you guys have the book, you know page 19 is where it begins. Jace, you tell me if you agree. Yeah, we've kind of rifted on it, on our thoughts, but it might be good to see what the University of Mary, how they kind of outline the structure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's read about what the experts think. Yeah, so what we're talking about is like there's an overall structure to the progressive religion, the ne-gnostic religion, like the first of that is like it's a scheme of self-initiated salvation, that it's something that you can accomplish yourself, like Joel Osteen, baby, you know prosperity, gospel, tony Robbins, all of that stuff that there's something we can do about it. You know, and Gnostics like when, and the difference differentiates from Christians is like cause. We have this basic understanding that without Christ there's nothing we can do. You know, and Gnostics see that like, and even we see that, and we're like I hate that, like that doesn't sound right to me, like that sounds defeatist, that sounds like that there's no hope that that's way too glum of you, of what it is, but it's the truth.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there's something like really hopeful and attractive about this first point, a scheme of self-initiated salvation, like that I could do something about this problem and I could fix it and in some sense correct me if I'm going into heresy. But it's like half true, yeah, like without Christ we can't do anything, but we have to respond to his grace, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's still a piece of it, right.
Speaker 2:There is human action that I have to do to be a faithful Christian, but it seems really hopeful if I could rely on my own action and no external forces and I didn't have to live surrendered and subject to other things. Yeah, it's a really easy lie to want to believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's just a huge difference between being the originator of solving a problem and a participant. Yeah, and that would be. That would be the leader versus you know a follower, and this is where it's.
Speaker 2:I would think that's entrapping Like why would so much of the world be depressed and like hopeless and disparative if a scheme of self-initiated salvation is their primary thing? Well, because there's oppressive structures. Well, but but also like I can't we all know, I was like playing DA yeah.
Speaker 2:But also like from the human heart experience, like we're so finite and we eventually realize that, like when we can't handle it all and we become overwhelmed. And so if the truth we believe is that I can save myself, but the reality I've lived out across 10 or 15 years or whatever it is, at some point in your adult life you're going to feel that you can't achieve your own, like you're going to. And if you don't believe or know or haven't experienced the fact that Christ carries you, like it's going to be a really lonely, sad mental health condition that we find ourselves in there. And I'll admit I've been there Like I've bought this first tenant and struggled with that reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we were talking. We were talking last time when we were going through the through our greatest hits. Like bishops, buy that. Yeah, Sometimes randomly.
Speaker 2:You know, bishop Cullinan himself said he's stuck. You know, got stuck in that yeah.
Speaker 1:And and you really easily can. So it's just really important to like and it like and it's this pride thing, right, like, that's this soul thing and you can also think of it like for some of this anxiety and the pressure things come from and they want to be freed from it. Why am I the way that I am? Why are things bad? The family is broken. I don't believe in family structures. My parents got divorced and it didn't work and I'm messed up now, but it's not my fault, it's the structure of the family. That is what we're going through, that things happen to us and they do um, but that they happen to us and because that's happened, that thing is bad, yep like old school gnosticism believed that our bodies, physical, the physical, was bad.
Speaker 1:New school neo-gnosticism isn't at that point. Yeah, um, it's like the proponents of these spiritualities and these structures in our culture, um, that go about it. So there's like, there's a difference and and as a result of like, like, if we walked around to say like, I mean, can you imagine, like, what would happen if we were on a street corner day and say your body is bad, the physical, it's all bad, like it, just like it would not catch on. So there's been a development in the Gnostic gospel in that way, which is weird.
Speaker 2:This was you kind of already said the second point here that the world's evil is not in the individual human heart but in these different structures. Fundamentally it's not my fault, yeah. Oppressive structures of human existence material, societal, psychological yeah. Next point is that this neonostic belief system promises to radically overcome the evil of the world and the alienation and lack of fulfillment experienced by humans.
Speaker 1:Yeah that acknowledging that there's a problem, but there's hope and we have the solution to fix it. I mean, nobody would follow something that they didn't think that there was hope behind. And a key aspect of this that in our current modern world that's fueling this, I think, is technology. Like when we all get smartphones, man, everything will be so much better. People won't get lost, people will know where the dangerous neighborhoods are, people will know you know all of these things and it's all of this information is at our fingertips, and even more so now with the invention of AI. Like you don't have to write your own emails anymore. It's all in there and so it's. It's very tempting when you have this new tool, this new thing that's going to solve all your problems, that's going to make your life easier, and you're like you know what this phone is like this is a part of my salvation, like whether or not you like actually say that word or that thought.
Speaker 1:That thought probably doesn't come into all of our mind but, man, the time that we spend with them makes it real, and the entertainment you know within that and that makes you happy. Yeah, it's fascinating. Next point Unless you had more.
Speaker 2:No, no yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay and that accomplishes this salvation through escape, which we were just discussing, from the destruction of prevailing structures of oppression, however they might be identified. I mean, we see this within all of our younger generations, from millennials onward. We don't trust institutions, we don't trust the government Like I'm not saying that we should. I don't trust the government, Like I'm not saying that we should. I don't trust the government. But the church, you know, are that people like we, because we are sinful but we don't believe for the Gnostics, but because we don't believe evil generates from the human heart, generates from the institution, that we don't blame people within institutions and see that it's a people problem, it's an institution problem and that we must get rid of it.
Speaker 1:We see this really, really clearly in the French Revolution. First off, tons of bad stuff that was happening with the beating down of the working class by the aristocrats in the French Revolution, totally an injustice that needed to be fixed and seen, and the church at the time wasn't doing a great job of addressing that. So this kind of is what naturally happens. But, um, they decided we have to destroy everything in order to get to a point. You know, like all the philosophers of the time Voltaire, you know like death to Christian, like they were calling for the death of Christianity. That's why they murdered and they talk about this in the first book like how they had to. At the time they murdered, I think we went down to like 800 priests or something like that, when they had 60,000. Wow, Previously the numbers are probably off, like 800 priests or something like that, when they had 60,000.
Speaker 1:Previously the numbers are probably off, but it's a big widening of the persecution that happened in that time and we can see that even now. You know when we're trying to take down different institutions you know, disrupt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's been interesting the types of institutions where we're even going after the family unit, yeah, by name, like against the nuclear family, um, it's. It's interesting, you see it a little bit and the, the trans movement with a lot of all of it, with the reality of, uh like schools being empowered to like kind of take away the primary educator reality from parents, like being empowered to like articulate that the parents are wrong, um, and that's just interesting when it's like, yeah, like actually to be.
Speaker 1:If we're really honest about it, every parent is wrong sometimes and some parents are, you know, some people have or abuse their children, or some parents don't do anything to help form them, and you know some people have experienced or abuse their children or don't do anything to help form them, and you know all of those things are, yeah, some of us have experienced extreme, you know, suffering at the hands of our parents or something like that.
Speaker 2:Like, actually it'd be healthier to acknowledge that that's absolutely true and here's how we can find healing there. So yeah, it's just interesting. We see it to your point as early as the French Revolution, probably other examples across history, and we can kind of see where it's now we're attacking. You know, this progressive religion is attacking different structures that suffering comes from, or oppression comes from within this neo-gnostic worldview that rings about a new type of human and inaugurates sorry rings about a new type of human and to inaugurate an entirely new age of freedom that has overcome the past age of oppression. So this I mean, said another way, like elevating the human and elevating a sense of how we define freedom as doing what we want and having what we want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just a world where there isn't injustice and we can do whatever we want. As a result of it, Like we're free to do it. That's what they define as freedom. That's like salvation Do what you want. You know something like that. There isn't something to ascribe yourself to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would think we even in like a kind of more watered down view of that or like the front door to that. Is this like chief virtue of like happiness being like the cheap measurement of what success looks like? And I'm not saying it's wrong to be happy by any means, but I'm just saying like if you were to ask a loving parent like what's the goal for your children's life, like it would be tempting to say like I just want them to be happy and that sounds like on the surface, a good answer, but it's like the Christian answer is like I want them in heaven, I want them to know Jesus, I want them and then like the tertiary things, like I want them to learn how to become a great spouse you know, to live into their vocation to you know, uh, be a great parent. Um, like heaven, great parent, great spouse, let's say good at work, good at their job, even for less important one. Like do any of those come with ongoing happiness as a as like the reality of how you get there?
Speaker 1:As a promise. No.
Speaker 2:Like like innately, like you can't be happy constantly to do those things well, like you actually have to deny your own happiness for a time to become more of a gift, more fulfilled, more, more joyful, right, and so it's just. I just kind of want to highlight that because I think for me, if I'm honest, that's tempting, like I'm going to measure my success of the week, the day, the year, by my own happiness, my wife's happiness, my kid's happiness, and like, yeah, I want them to be joyful and I want them to enjoy life, but at the end of the day, I want them to be holy and to be growing closer to Christ, and that's lasting. Happiness is fleeting, but by definition here we want to be free and happy. That's the top.
Speaker 1:We have two more key structures of it, and it accomplishes its salvation through the application of some sort of specialized technical knowledge, which is where the gnosis came, by human efforts we were talking about, like you know, from through the cell phone, through the curing of cancer through technology. But one thing that I was reflecting on a little bit and we'll get more into this at different parts like we do that within Christianity, a little bit Like we're like with this program, with this style of evangelization, with this thing, like this is what's going to save us. This is what's going to increase collections at your church, this is what's going to increase, and it's all a little bit man-made sometimes, which is not like, and that's just a way that it can trickle in to even Catholicism, and the way that it practically gets lived out, which is a yeah, so just any specialized technology. I'm good at this and because I'm good at this, I'm going to be saved. Or I have this tool. Because I have this tool, I'm going to be saved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so many social media hooks have a line that's like trying to, you know, provoke that sort of thought. Right, Like seven steps to become financially free or like 12 things to have a happier day.
Speaker 1:I'm just making them up 50 side hustles.
Speaker 2:that'll get you out of debt you know, or like the secret to insert attractive quality of life and, like I was mentioning earlier, the whole, like think and grow rich, or the whole like you know, manifestation, sort of thought process, manifesting your goals, or the universe brings it to you. There is, while it might not be as formulaic or specific or like uniform as it might've been in early Gnostic time, there's this like kind of I don't know a whole trove of different provoking like here's the trick you need to be happy, fulfilled, saved, and I think we can see that and reject it. And it's like fully Gnostic form, right, and it's fully secular and progressive form. But I think there's also an invitation, um, to question our own vision as christians, where this might be mixed in like okay, because I know these special things and actions I can take as a catholic, I'm holier than this, or I'm doing doing well, you know where it's like. The litmus test is like a continual conversion, not necessarily my performance of technique, right, yeah. And then what's that final big one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the final big one we already mentioned it a little bit is that it's just. It's just pride, it's all pride, it's everything that we ever struggle with. And so all of these principles that are coming from the structure of this religion will take place in our next episode a little bit more deeply as we dive into 12 major aspects of the religion. But make no mistake, like, if you're listening, like it is a religion and we all kind of subscribe to it, it's not just a worldview, it's not just an imaginative vision anymore. It's like it affects what we do on a daily basis and how we practice and everything. So it's really important. So these next two episodes, like we'll be real, it's gonna be kind of hard to listen to. I felt like writing this book was hard because, like, coming at it from a, did you say writing the book? Did I say writing?
Speaker 2:I am a genius if you look at the last page really it was Jace Palmer, not St Mary's. I'm just kidding. I relate to that it was tough to read because it was challenging but at the same sense it was like a little bit exciting exciting and freeing because you're like, it's like oh holy cow. Like, because in some sense it reveals some of it.
Speaker 1:Like puts to name a reality that I've been struggling with or that I've been pushing against yeah, um, it's kind of like seeing a math problem that you've been doing wrong for forever and seeing what led to you doing that problem wrong.
Speaker 1:You're like oh oh, yeah, and so bigger than me yeah, I'd invite you everyone to keep going through, even though it might be hard, and um help it be this unpacking and newer waves go ahead yeah, and we're heading to a place where, like, because we know this, because we know these things, that it will elevate our ability to evangelize, to make change in the culture, to realize things, to make changes in our families, to understand what our teenagers are being fed and the way that we can structure things Like reading this book will change fundamentally, like almost how I advertise, like events, and things like that too, like events, um, and, and things like that too, like um.
Speaker 1:So I think it's a it's really key and important and will be really good for us to understand all these things. But I mean, as christians, we just have to understand that we're fallen human beings and we're gonna have to see how we're fallen, and I think it's really important to, as we're going through it, like the best thing that you can do, I think, is to not be like, to not not try to think of other people that you see exhibiting some of these things as we go through, but realizing and rooting out where you see some of these traits within your own heart.
Speaker 1:That will be so like because, frankly, because then that's a little bit of a Gnostic way to look at it. Like someone else, I see this in these things, but not in my own. Definitely, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:To return back to the first words of the book, the invitation is for us to have a fully Catholic mind as we read this, and the book's charge was it's possible to do a lot of Catholic things but not have a Catholic mind. So our hope, with our listeners, is that we all have a more Catholic mind by the end of this and can name the errors we see in our own ways of thinking and seeing. Yep, awesome. Well, this has been part one of a multi-part series on the religion of the day with Red Dirt Catholics.
Speaker 1:And I'm Jace and I'm James. We'll see you next time, thank you.