Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Religion of the Day - Part 3
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Exploring the intersection of modern secularism and ancient gnosticism with "The Religion of the Day" from the University of Mary, the follow-up publication to "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission."
This is part 3.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Once a month our office assigns somebody to either bring in food or cook food for like kind of the secretary of evangelization, as just like a way of being closer building team, all of those things, um, and I've been avoiding being the volunteer to help with the food because it's just really not a skillset that I've developed in any way, shape or form. You know, um, like I can cook a couple of things well, but I would have to like I don't know I could do it. I can follow instructions, so I just haven't done it. So Laren asked me she took pity on me and she's just like this amazing cook and stuff and said, hey, you can be my assistant.
Speaker 1:That way, you don't have to like run it.
Speaker 2:And I was like, yes, please. So I was helping her. We made these flatbread things with frittatas and whatnot, and it was just like. So she like brought all the ingredients, told me what to do, made an essential. She made it idiot. Proof is what Laren did. So I was like just going through like dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, and then she was like, hey, could, could you just like? And she was just like fixing it the entire time over and over again, and I was like, man, there is just a lot more to like, think about strategy wise for this food. I'm just like throwing this pesto on and this cheese. She's like, oh yeah, more cheese, that's, that's not enough. And I'm like, oh, okay, um, and whatnot. And then, but by the end of it, I was the one who assembled the flatbreads and I was like, guys, these flatbreads my own personal recipe, hand put together by Jace. But whenever we're all hanging out, we always laugh a whole lot and we were talking about knowing your world geography and how bad Americans are at world geography.
Speaker 1:Are you pretty good?
Speaker 2:at it. No, I'm pretty solid with Europe and I can get some other random ones. I used to know all of them countries in their, in their capitals, because of, like, singing a song from school, but that has since been flushed away down the memory hole, um, but yeah, we were all pretty bad at it, but we were just talking a little bit about all sorts of different things within that and we were also talking about the other day like the difference types of hispanic music, because I was kind of I was kind of ragging on him. I was talking about how bad I thought Mexican music was, the way that they portray it and, more specifically, they're talking about Norteñas. I think I'm probably butchering it, but that's that Mexican music. That's like kind of got that polka feel to it and it's got like the little horn and you know.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask if you could give an example. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it.
Speaker 2:And it's like it's very conservative.
Speaker 2:The Norteños overall it's very yeah, but it's extremely popular, but it's just like it's like if country was set back a hundred years, like country music here like it's kind of like the equivalent, but then you have so that's, but that's what Mexico's like pride and joy is, or what a lot of uh, hispanics that have come from Mexico over here what they really like to listen to, come from mexico over here, what they really like to listen to. But I was talking to my dj friend, jared, and he was showing me like some colombian specific music or puerto rican music and that stuff is a banger, like that's good, that hits and whatnot. And so I was like I was kind of like jabbing them a little bit. I was like this is your guys, I like played what like the top song was for Nortania. And I played like this Puerto Rican guy and was just like.
Speaker 2:I was like there's no comparison, you know like what's going on. And they were. It was funny, they almost didn't even like. They're like, yeah, it's just like what we like. And I was like, oh, like what we like. And I was like, oh, anyway, that's my, that's my take on music, that I can't understand the words. But they also told me about some of these different um artists that are like really like profane and vulgar in spanish, but like the beats are also, but really good and like the, the groove of it all and the vocals are good, so I could like. But I discovered I was like I can listen to this. I have no idea the horrific things that the person might be saying right now. I'm just like yeah.
Speaker 1:So interesting. It is interesting that sometimes the most profane songs are so catchy in in their tune and then where the beats are.
Speaker 2:It ain't fair.
Speaker 1:It ain't fair man.
Speaker 2:You know where's our, where's our golden era of? I don't even need it to be like, I don't even need it to be like praise and worship music, I just want to some. And there's there's a few like like imagine, dragons had some really big ones that were really good and one republic. But yeah, it'd be nice to have like some, some solid music.
Speaker 2:That wasn't profane, but it's but hits yeah yeah, yeah, but we're talking about, we're back to, we're back to book club, as producer avery uh likes to describe it. Oh, another thing, father Jerome. His podcast went a little bit viral on TikTok.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Like his little deal, mostly for negative reasons.
Speaker 1:Like one we had him on or a podcast. He's doing the one that we had him on, okay, nice.
Speaker 2:We took a clip of him discussing what the priesthoodhood was, and it slid into Protestant TikTok somehow.
Speaker 1:No way.
Speaker 2:And like over 40, like really negative comments. That's like Rome equals Satan or whatever thing. Oh wow, nice, yeah, so some serious responses.
Speaker 1:Have we moderated it? Have we, like, come in with good apologetic responses?
Speaker 2:One guy. We had one solo defender. Yeah, so go um. If you're not on tiktok, stay away. If you're already, if you're already sucked in, follow archo kc and, you know, help defend father jerome, he's getting cooked.
Speaker 1:Man, we should in another banter session. We should pull those up and read some of them. It'd be pretty funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, reading mean like from SNL, the mean tweets thing. Oh my gosh, do you ever watch those? No, so it would be like Aaron Rodgers, who's a Green Bay Packer or used to be the Green Bay Packers quarterback, knows with the Jets best quarterback ever, but it would. He would read it and it would say like Aaron Rodgers, you are the worst player of all time. Eat my feet or whatever really weird, like overly aggressive.
Speaker 1:We said we had that in college. We called them brag bags and in a student organization I was a part of. So like at the end of the meeting, people throughout the meeting they'd pass in like just a little note or whatever. At the end we'd read the brag bags and the president before me would throw out a lot of them. Um, I would. If they were really vulgar I'd throw them out, but if they were about me I'd read it every time, just because I they people knew they wrote a bunch about him and so knew he threw him out. Yeah, there were some good ones, yeah yeah, so I enjoy.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed reading those.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that'd be good, oh, that would be good. Oh, that would be funny, just have Father Drew come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when we have him back on.
Speaker 1:We'll have him read those. That would be even better.
Speaker 2:That would be funny, good times. Well, we'll get right on that. But so Siegel from Christenum and Apostolic Mission, the religion of the day. We kind of left off discussing some tenets of the neo-gnostic progressive view, and we're gonna try and wrap up those tenets today as we continue moving forward. Salvation comes through human effort alone, is the next tenant. So there's just some. There's something about it that I mean there just can't be a god, right, like it's the, the, the existence of a god or the salvation coming from a god is antithetical to what they're, to what the modern progressive religion is yeah, it would.
Speaker 1:just what's interesting is like there's still some partial truth here, right, like we we do have to do some things as Christians, like our efforts there, we're cooperating, but the progressive religion ignores the whole other side of the coin.
Speaker 1:So like we might have a season where we've done everything we can and we have to surrender or wait on the Lord. That wouldn't be an option for the progressive believer. But I mean, I think how, how depressing that could be, like the downside to that like, and what's what's interesting, like I think in some sense even the distortion of what hope is, kind of changes. I don't know that the book said this, but you and I were even discussing this the other day like secular hope or progressive hope would be like hoping for something to change, hoping that something changes, and like the Christian hope is like a hope in the eternal and like, amidst this season of suffering or non-change, that we might desire it and God might even desire it. Like we can actually have total hope in the present moment and receive that hope from the Lord because he's changing us, transforming us, bringing us into himself. And, yeah, the progressive believer doesn't even get a chance for that.
Speaker 2:And it's so easy, like this is probably our year and I is one of our easiest like paths into feeling like a Gnostic is the idea like the thing that I highlighted was just that it's really easy to get impatient with God to fix something that we think we might be able to fix ourselves, and there's always that temptation, like the speed in which we would prefer things to happen for ourselves, the speed in which we'd like to see injustices be corrected, the speed in which our situations are healing, we would want our healing to happen, all of those things it can really lend itself to us like that word I'll do it myself or that feeling of on your own, whereas, like, the speed is just not important ultimately.
Speaker 2:Like there's suffering and you have to be in there and you have to be experiencing that, and the Lord doesn't like love that, but he's bringing about a greater good and like, and if it's slower, it's because it needs to be. It's best to be slower, you know. So that was a fascinating thing within it and it's interesting like there are I wanted to read this quote there are ripe seed beds for growth of varieties of Gnostic belief systems that emphasize self-redemption rather than salvation by Christ, and you know you were talking about the guy that you met on the plane, the self-help, everything you know. I can take care of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that we could muster all that up ourselves and, to your point, like the one of the biggest poverties, when we find ourselves slide into this way of thinking, is like, like humility and obedience are like some of the best things for us in the spiritual life, um, and you know absence, so patience helps bring out both of those. Like having to wait on something, um, or admitting that we can't affect the change we want to, like that humility, and if we have, if we are tasked with saving ourselves, well then there's just this overwhelming amount of pride that's there, whether we acknowledge it or not, and that's going to affect so many other things in our life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, moving on to the next one, this one's really I'm really excited to talk about this one. This one's more exciting than the last one the application of a technique or gnosis to bring about salvation. What does that mean to you, james?
Speaker 1:What's interesting, I think, in its antiquity from, like Gnosticism, it might look different than it does. What does antiquity mean? So, like ancient Gnostics, antiquity would be like, yeah, from a long time ago, history, yeah, in history. So like ancient gnostics, existed pre-christianity, even like in the kind of greek view of the cosmos. Um, there would have been a proper understanding for most greeks that we were subordinate to something greater than us in the cosmos. But there would have also been a large amount of gnostics that you know, believe we can apply these, this particular specialized knowledge, to save ourselves. And um, um, that might have looked like magic or Wiccan or a cult or something um or sorcery. Um, while there is that here today, of course, I would think most of us who are, especially if we're entrapped in neo-gnostic thought, without accepting that we are, um, most of us probably are engaged in magic, um, but even I think I was pondering this like where I slide into it today.
Speaker 1:It's interesting if you looked at like every clickbait thing, or like social media hook there's. Like the you know the key to losing belly fat. Or like the the five ways to improve your marriage. Like there's like everything begins with a. Here's the, the recipe you need to employ for success, um, in this area, or for salvation in this area. And like on the surface, like to a certain degree, like yeah, that's true, there's best practices that help us with things, um, but but it's almost saying like you have to do it this way and we can almost worship the process of a particular specialty or way of doing things in order to achieve perfection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it like the thing that hearing like this, like the secret knowledge, like Augustine talked about it a whole bunch when he was with the manichaeans, so it makes me think about that, but from a modern day example, you know like it really makes me think of it, it's not a great example it makes me think of um, the uh, the church of christ.
Speaker 2:Scientists, scientology people like this isn't going to be a perfect description of the tenants of Scientology, but there's a, there's a piece of it where you have to pay money to get access to new information that apparently builds all the way up to like we were made by aliens or something like that. But you have to, like it's a you pay money to get access to this information that no one else can have, and only the select few can be trusted with, which is, um, so that's very interesting.
Speaker 2:But there's also, like even in I was ruminating on this with you when we were reading this a while back like even in a lot of our apostolates, like this can trickle in for ourselves as Catholics, even in, like our way of doing things, like maybe something was really successful somewhere.
Speaker 2:You know some particular, you know style or process or steps or whatever it is, but every human heart is individual and different and the Lord doesn't really work within our steps. But we can make it so much that, well, the only way you're going to be any good as an evangelist is if you do these five things, or if you do it this particular way, this particular way and for 1999 we'll share it with you like it kind of happens, it happens across the board within that. So it's so. There is, but there is like a right and a wrong way to do things sometimes and there are best practices. So there is like a. I think what they're the gnosis thing is is like the secretiveness of it. The um, there's like a. I think what the Gnosis thing is is like the secretiveness of it.
Speaker 1:There's like a superiority yeah, that's what I was going to say the elitist view of it, like, in some sense, to keep going off your example, like if I were to try and discern, like, am I falling into these thoughts within the way I practice the faith? If I feel like I am better than the next Catholic because I'm going about it this particular way, going about evangelizing or going about deepening my interior life with these particular ways or these particular devotions or something, if that's like setting me apart as being more apt to be saved, I'm probably slipping into the gnosis trap.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if you're set apart, like there just aren't silver bullets.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the tenets. Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2:He just says that later on there. Like that they really fall into a silver bullet mentality If everybody just knew and lived by this, we'd all be saved which we fundamentally reject. Which comes into our next tenet, which is a dualistic view of history, which I think is interesting. Like because we don't see. Like this world is not where we are or where our final place is, this is not where our eggs are, it's not our basket. So, as we're going through the point of history, like, there's a certain sense of detachment from what's going on, a healthy sense of detachment.
Speaker 2:As Christians, obviously we want to make great places for our families, be able to spread the gospel, have religious liberty All of those things are really important in fighting for the unborn, all of that. But there's a sense of like we're okay, we understand that the suffering is going to exist regardless of what we do, because that's just the nature of where we're in. But for the Gnostics, like for the progressive religion, it's rejected, Like that's considered a really negative and defeatist attitude because they don't believe in anything afterwards, whereas for we're like, well, we're. This is the reality of sin and where we are and we're going to be working towards a relationship with our creator and spending eternal life with him. So it's very interesting that there's um, that there's a dichotomy between the two of us there, um, but the only reasonable goal for progressive believers is a world substantially freed from evil, and we know that that's not happening in this world yeah, it's interesting on in the reality of dualistic, like in what way do you see a progressive believer being dualistic?
Speaker 2:that it that the world is either in a state of that everything is better now, um, or like, I think, the word that the book, the book, uses, like the age of a. We're in an age of oppression, of the secret, knowledge and different things, or we're in an age of freedom, um, and we're moving towards that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, and it's, and it's one or the other, and I'd have to be dualistic in some sense, because I'd have to if there were prior revolutions that got rid of those oppressions or whatever. I can't with that stance. I in some sense can't even acknowledge that they happened.
Speaker 2:Right, because it's true, because, because then it would be an admitting that it failed anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that it either failed anyway or there was a prior success, and I'm just rejecting that Now. As outdated, yeah, the book talked about like there's almost a denial of logic because, like on their merits alone, like past events, certain realities or structures within the world, like they're not evaluated on their own merit, they're just like outdated or old or not applicable anymore, so sort of just brushed aside yeah.
Speaker 2:And even like even the second century Manichaeans that we're talking about, like with with San, that were battling San Augustine and everything, like they wanted, like they were. They were as close to Christianity as Gn narcissism has probably been um at that stage. And the interesting thing is is that they wanted to just abolish the old testament, almost treat it like it never happened. They wanted to have it that god annihilated it, that it is gone, um, where the reality is like it's been fulfilled, it's been brought forth to the forefront by the New Testament and all of that stuff. So it's just like it's just very dualistic, very black and white in a way, and it has to be that way, otherwise it falls apart and becomes intellectually dishonest. Yeah, the past. It has to be that way, otherwise it falls apart and becomes intellectually dishonest yeah, the.
Speaker 1:The past always has to be an inferior, which is like a self-defeating kind of statement like you can't. The progressive belief system can't continue. It just falls apart there. It can't continue to be achieving salvation if the past is always in need of reform.
Speaker 2:Right and like it makes me think of. I don't know if you ever watched the TV show this isn't. I wouldn't recommend this TV show but it's a guilty pleasure of mine from pre conversion, called how I met your mother, and there's a. There's a character on the show named Barney who's just like this degenerate character, but he's really funny. But he would come up to Ted. He was like the hero of the story. He was trying to find his bride, um, and there's one particular episode where he says, ted, new is always better. See, you're like, here's a new girl Better than the old one. You know different things. And so and he's like Ted's like this is a rule, barney. And he's like, yeah, new is always better. And then they'd be like, okay, one of Barney's favorite things was scotch. So he was like what's your oldest scotch? To the bartender and the bartender's like, oh, it's like a hundred-year-old Glen McKellen, it's amazing, it's the best thing ever. And they said, okay, what's your newest scotch?
Speaker 2:And it was like grape scotch or something and they were like to have some of that. New is always better, right, barney? To have some of that new is always better, right, barney? It's just like a thing.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that a lot. It's interesting to think about this. I don't know if the book mentions it here, but definitely later.
Speaker 1:In some sense this explains why our current world is so polarized and why certain parts of the world seem to be, or certain belief systems and thoughts seem to be, more and more intense about a topic Like let's take abortion, for example, as one.
Speaker 1:Like if the old was always oppressive. Like we're going to have to get more and more and more and more radical about our stance on a particular topic to get rid of the oppression, about our stance on a particular topic to get rid of the oppression. Like even even folks who were of the same, you know, of the same ideological makeup generally call it a hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago, 30 years ago, that we're talking about abortion. Like the same things coming out of the same aligned party, the things coming out of the same aligned groups. Mouths are now way more radical than they were then, and I feel like we could go to other other aspects of life, even like materialism to some degree. Like certain things are just, they almost have to be more of a revolution than the prior one If we're going to yeah, yeah, it has to to be.
Speaker 2:It has to be more radical. It's a constant, it's a constant building thing. Like it says here. Technical advances like refrigeration, and social development, like sexual liberation, can equally be expected to arise, with all other good things, from this dynamic forward movement through time. But like there's just no, it's always forward, there's never. It's never. We were there, it's always what was behind. We have to. It's progressive, you know. So it's a, it's an interesting, an interesting thought pattern within that. Um. So the next thing. So we have a dualistic view. Either we're in an age of oppression or an age of freedom. Um, and depending on what age you're in, it really depends upon, uh, if we're present or not, otherwise it automatically becomes oppression later on. But they also go to a place where there's like two different, distinct types of people the people in possession of said knowledge and the people possession of the gnosis that it, like it, creates a new person. Almost there's a salvation. That happens when they receive whatever this knowledge is.
Speaker 1:It's like the enlightened versus the unenlightened.
Speaker 2:Right, right and we become the unenlightened. Those who are resisting whatever their agenda is and this has happened over and over throughout history become tainted, biased, bigoted, whatever it is, because it's a tenant of the religion. They have to be that way. They can't just be like a good person and become a natural enemy as it were. So that's why we see so often the polarized nature of our country, with Gnosis having infected both sides equally, that there's just a radical demonizing of other human beings, then they're not demons it's very interesting to your point.
Speaker 1:You said both sides. Like you could, you could take what we label as right and left and see gnosticism or progressivism in either, or this idea of two different types of humans, like an enlightened versus an unenlightened, um, and it's. It's interesting how dangerous that can be. But, but, like I think what's interesting about the book, like, yes, it uses the word progressive, which we might put in a political lens, but in reality, like, if we're honest and if we're trying to be humble and we're trying to realize this, like, if my viewpoint on things is different, that doesn't make me progressive or not progressive, necessarily, um, in the sense that this book is using it you know, but like if you took kind of a far right super conservative group, you could and we're honest about it we can see where we're.
Speaker 1:We're falling into the trap of Gnosticism. Um, and in the same, in the same exact way, different issues, different conclusions, perhaps as as someone on the right, um, but it's like very dangerous. You have these like probably more peer group that might not be in either camp. That is um being kind of out at like. Okay, you haven't drank the Kool-Aid on this, so you're clearly unenlightened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean my like trying to think of like. My dad has called me woke before you know, and that's not even close to like. I don't identify with that particular set of, uh, beliefs of my dad. My dad is a very, very conservative guy, very, very on the right side, and like there's not, there's not room for thinking something else other than like this truth.
Speaker 1:Um well, it's interesting, like, if we're orthodox in the sense of like moral orthodoxy, like taking what the church teaches us is true, we, we could, on different topics, totally become non-trusted and non-tolerated by either the establishment, by their polarized side. Because of that, we're conflicting with the enlightened thing that they know to be solid truth, versus the revealed truth, that that we know to believe, even though it's hard sometimes. Yeah, um, and that's a fascinating thing. Um, yeah, it's almost like two groups of humans, but technically like a lesser group and a higher group it's a fascinating thing and you can just another example like so that?
Speaker 2:so that would be my another example. This is kind of a nerdy example. Every now and then I I play this game on my playstation called skull and bones. It's a pirate game, it's like a big, massive, open world, but you can play with like other people and I I don't remember how I got invited, but I got invited into this like group and they have a chat on Discord together and all that stuff. So I was like, ah, it's 10 o'clock, everyone's asleep. I'll talk to these guys, see what's going on. And they have this guy leader, his name's Fode, and he's like he lives in North Carolina, like out in the country, and the dude's just like it really, really reminds me of Oilfield, like it was like the vibe that he gives, so it's like F-bombs, every other word, you know different things.
Speaker 2:But the dude's like unabashedly, like stomps out, like says, like says, well, I, I am woke, I ain't doing that stuff and you know just you know, and but there's just like, it's just an example of the, of the paralyzation, but he's also at the same time, he's also saying yeah, but like you know, at the same time, like, don't touch my weed, uh, and and and things like that right, right, um.
Speaker 2:So there's just this. You know, like I'm in possess, I like this, this ultra what is the what is the word for? Ultra kids, ultra conceited, ultra pride that can just seep in and and, when you're basing everything, when you are making yourself your own God. That's what essentially this all is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love the quote the book has that you know we might, that good and evil and the Christian understanding can't be mapped into discrete, different groups of people or times, but that good and evil divides. The divide runs through every human heart and, um, the progressive religion is going to tempt us to think that we're on the right side of this and other people are fully evil. Um, but in reality, like no, we all have evil we need to root out and we all have good and in some sense we all have blended, mixed motivations and and thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the second, second to last point that we're going to be covering, which is also super cool, is that revolution is the process by which salvation is achieved. If there is not something to rebel against, if there's not something that they perceive as oppression, the establishment, the structures, what may may be, whether it's a government, whether it's a another religion in the area, all those things they have to be rebelling against. Something like it's the only way to cleanse this stuff. And and so we've seen, you know we, and we've talked about all the different movements go over time. You know the, the gnostic movements with the nazis, with the nazis with the, with the french revolution, with the, you know, with the woke movement and everything else, like if there's not something to fight and the annihilation of that said thing is the goal and nothing is done until it's annihilated, which is a thing. And it's also kind of like where a lot of times, our persecution can come from.
Speaker 1:It's like a natural life cycle of the church, which is scary, yeah, and a full on revolution never really leaves things afterwards better. They're like decimated, you know, because we're talking about overthrowing or ruining a structure of something, and like, sure, if everyone in that structure is completely evil, which we know not to be true, as Christians we know that it's more mixed. It's interesting. It's almost like the opposite of what the Lord says about like the weeds in the field, like he, like. He says like not to pull them up, because you might pull up some of the good, the good harvest with it. And and like a revolution would like, like burn it down, like burn down the good stuff we got to get rid of. We got it all. It's all bad. We got to inoculate all the bad. Yeah, it's dualistic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Dualistic, like a transformation that will necessarily and spontaneously take place once the world order or the one evil order has been destroyed. Like the about growing up in the area of israel slash palestine, that like was over time, like continually taken over by the opposing group and um, she has a statement in there that I think sums up like the position of the book. But she says if, if we're to achieve peace, like, true peace demands everyone to accept less than what they deserve. I and I thought that was a beautiful quote.
Speaker 1:But one thing I saw in that, reading that book but then in light of like viewing the Hamas, israel reality is that if you'd like just take an objective view and pull off our scales of how we've been biased, like, you can see that, quite honestly, both sides have been wronged and that there's objective evil present. And then you can see that there's like innocent loss happening mixed up within the like loss, the like the needed loss for war. And so it's like I, my and I don't know if I'm right, but just looking at it, my and reading this book, like, like man, the progressive view has taken over both sides of that conflict for a while, where we're just removing the wheat and the weeds in an effort to win, and there's just utter, utter chaos, you know, and the only perfect thing would be like if god could intervene and stop it and just institute total peace. So it's very messy the only thing it's yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So, like I don't know for clarity, I have no idea how to solve that, but we can see, like the, we can see how just the view of, hey, we've got it, we've got to overthrow this that both sides have adopted in a conflict like that, yeah, what it's going to leave is just a decimation for everyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, and it and it all starts ideological right, ideological revolution. For the most part it isn't. It doesn't necessarily have to result in like full blown violence, but it very often will you know eventually, like as an example, like blown violence, but it very often will you know eventually, like as an example, like um, like the sexual revolution was an inherently violent thing. If you, if you do, if you discount, like the abortion coming spinning off of that, then it's like a genocide. But, um, but, but as it all progressively moves forward like, it just turns to systematic violence by the demands of its own inner logic. Like with the French Revolution, the Soviet gulag, chinese Cultural Revolution, the Nazi death camps. Those are all examples of like where you start somewhere and it's like, it's not fast. And I'm not. I don't think either of us are saying, or I don't think this book is saying that like here, in 20 years, the united states is going to round people up and kill them. You know, um, but that's where it naturally, that's where it naturally leads towards.
Speaker 1:it's interesting the book talked about like in two different spots.
Speaker 1:The reality of like gradual reform is that in the first spot he talks about that being more of like a christian thought, you know, realigning personal and social life as kind of a perennial thing, like we're in a constant state of reform and growth towards the lord.
Speaker 1:Um, which is interesting because you could see like even in the earliest parts of christianity, like you, like you can see Christianity kind of baptizing things, if you will, like things that were like formerly pagan, like kind of taking over feast days, like, so somewhat embracing, like the things of the culture that were good, but but Christianizing them, um, and sort of like um, yeah, gradually shifting in this way.
Speaker 1:But then it also talks about that like amidst progressive believers there are some kind of gradualist movements to where they realize that some people they're aligned with are kind of polarized and this is going a little too far. And there develops two things One, some of the progressive movement around that ideological issue is sort of pushing that person into the unenlightened category, but then also that person themselves becomes like, develops a sense of inferiority within that belief system, um, because they're not as like pure or true to the, to the cause and, what's interesting, like if the particular issue was a legitimate evil and trying to be addressed like the gradualists would have a better long game win you know, and so it's just kind of interesting that they get tossed to the side.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I wholly agree. Yeah, they become inferior Still mostly. So the last stage is like the necessary failure of modern religion. The progressive revolution always ultimately fails because progressive belief is founded on a radical departure from reality. Paradoxically, the more completely a given revolution succeeds, more complete will be its resulting failure, which is a. I mean, we've seen, we saw that especially like, especially with, like the Nazis right, it was a very, a very complete takeover, but the resulting failure of what they had, not just because they lost the world war, but like the erosion of the country and everything were, were demoralized and like just just flattened by its failure from it, from it all. Any thoughts within that?
Speaker 1:This section was written above my pay grade but very well written in how modern religion functionally has to fail in order for the system to work. It kind of breaks out three main responses against main responses against um. Three main responses that sort of come among different people and maybe that's what we yeah, we can talk about those, yeah like the, the first response being simple disillusion.
Speaker 2:One disillusionment like that, the, the. The revolution fails because everyone's bored of it, everyone's not really, doesn't really care about talking about it anymore, like we've been saying it over and over again, so it just, it just falls. It falls flat on his face when they're faced with a failed revolution. The second one being faced with a failed revolution, the specific form of, so of that particular salvation gets discredited and we await what the next one is going to be. It's like we like silently, we're like that revolution didn't work.
Speaker 1:We need to pick a better one.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know um which I I think we'll see, um I think we'll see multiple iterations of that before it gets to the yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I like the examples he cited there, like Eastern German fascists becoming like really great communists, or youthful Woodstock revolutionaries are some of the most turning into like Silicon Valley magnets to like make the world better technologically, you know, or Polish communists or even like pastors.
Speaker 2:Like you know, there's like people who were at wistock, they were like, or who were a part of that whole revolution, who were like had a. I guess that's more the third point.
Speaker 1:Sorry, keep going oh, I was saying, uh, the other example you mentioned, like polish communists quickly embracing, like a, a capitalism, or privileged white feminists joining against privileged whites you know it's kind of an like it's like okay, that cause wasn't working, so I'm transforming into a new one, yeah, the.
Speaker 2:The one that I think is going to be really interesting, or the one that I find the most interesting playing out, is like the the radical feminist versus the transgender movement. That will be interesting to see how that one ultimately plays out yeah, because you're right in some sense.
Speaker 1:Like a radical feminist, like could now make transgender the evil that she wants to attack um, or needs to leave behind the feminist ideology in a large part and adopt this transgender one as the new inequity.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so this is the most common one amongst Gnostic is like well, that didn't work, let's move to the next one, the one that we want the most, the most Christian response when revolution fails, like these are the three options First, disillusionment. Second, they pick something else. And three, there's actually a serious, a serious re-understanding and reconfiguring of what do I believe and and and honestly like going through that. And there's a and if the re-evaluation, like if the re-evaluation results in an understanding of the, of their pride and different things, like they'll end up coming home a lot of the time and we have to be there to catch those balls as they get kicked you know, as people get kicked out of the progressive movement, we gotta catch them and say, hey, you're loved and you have a community here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. I wrote down in the margin like how can we cooperate with a revival that follows a revolution? You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, how can we turn revolution into revival, or at least pay attention to that, yeah, or watch how we're communicating too, right, like can we communicate in such a way, mindful that, okay, there's three movements that people are going to have here when the revolution doesn't work, because it can't work, because there always has to be another one, but one, like, okay, they're going to move into cynicism, despair, nihilism, okay, so there's truth, we could speak there. Two, this is a little harder, their second response, where they're just jumping from revolution to revolution. But three, where there's the chance to just like, honestly recognize their own pride. I think, if we're communicating in a way that is just just as, uh, neo-gnostic, just as progressive, you know. So if we're so, take, let's take the trans music, the trans movement.
Speaker 1:If I'm like attacking the people and acting utterly ridiculous towards folks, or like take COVID. If I'm shouting on one side things that are totally untrue, like take COVID. If I'm shouting on one side things that are totally untrue because I just am so turned off by how the other side did it, I'm really not bringing about anything positive. For the opportunity for number three to work. You know what I mean. But if I respond, if we respond as Christians, like with love, with humility, with you know, in a, in a way that helps receive people. Um, we know that this third response is possible, even if it's subsurface at the moment, right Like cause. We know the realities that they're, that they're in, I don't know. I just think that leaves hanging this chapter like a question for the Christian.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like yeah. How are you? How do we behave amidst?
Speaker 1:the revolutions of our time. How do we receive and respond to people? Yeah, and what?
Speaker 2:are the strategies to be pastoral in meeting some of these people coming through, and I'm sure that's something that will just. I think as we continue through the book, it's going to give us some of those particular ideas. I think as we continue through the book it's going to give us some of those particular ideas. But, man, that's just such a good point that you're making of, wow, these people are coming down from something. I had them in its clutches and we could jeer, we could be happy that they failed. Like, say, like for the abortion movement, like how did we react for Roe v Wade or something which could have been seen as a big failure of a particular Gnostic movement? Were we just like rubbing it in, real stoked about it, or were we like, right, let's, let's receive and understand the person and it gets very much down to, like, the relational level. So I love that that it points that out as like a possible reality that we have we can't discount.
Speaker 1:There's a piece of me that like I don't read this, as you know, wanting to water down the faith, or, like, pretend to be something we're not. That's not where I'm going here, but there's, there's like an art of connecting with people, right, and so, like, if we go to the, if we go to the chapter and notice, like okay, based on the progressive piece, if we go to that section about the two kinds of people a couple of tenants ago, like there's probably a way that we can choose to refrain from being counterpolarizing about something, um, without, without moving into a place of lying or denying truth, right, so so like, like we can actually agree with the suffering that a young, pregnant, single woman is going through, right, we can actually choose to talk about some of the things that they see as evil, yeah, right, and like and spend time with that. And, um, if we're not, it takes two parties to fight. So, if we're choosing not to fight, and and we're, and we're talking about some of those things and I'm mainly not talking about like on the political sphere here, cause that would be very, that'd be pretty hard Actually I'm talking about, like your friend who lives down the street that you share life with, and like maybe you're a common family, common neighborhood, maybe even common church, like you, can be their friend even though they share opposing ideas or have opposing ideas.
Speaker 1:But I think there's a way of aligning on the the good and aligning on the things that we both agree are evil, and them knowing how much we love them and us saying the truth. You really only need to say it once for them to know what, um, but then you can talk about the common things you're working on and maybe you could even find a way to work on it together. Yeah, um, like crisis pregnancy centers. That's probably tough for for many that are fully caught in. But there's probably other examples of like the Christian response, like to war, for example, like we want peace generally speaking, but there's probably a way, over the tenure of a relationship, to not get caught in the need to fight back with the same horsepower, the same firepower. Yeah, so that then when it fails cause it will fail, the revolution will fail. We still have the relationship, like equity, to receive them you know to, to talk through things, definitely. But yeah, I don't know, I think it's one.
Speaker 2:This answer is probably nuanced and different for every human relationship, every single one and god created it like and we can lay the plan with us. God created each of us with another person in mind that we can bring him to like. There are people that that have been put on this earth that I was specifically created to help reach, and that's how it is for everybody.
Speaker 1:It's really a wonderful way to view. The Great Commission is, like you know, going to all the corners of the world to evangelize, like there's a particular corner that Jace Palmer has been planted in, and like people who might only know of the Lord's love and his mercy through Jace's words and his deeds you know and same for every listener here. There's a set of people that probably will only hear the gospel, will probably only experience the love of Christ through you, Definitely.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, this has been Red Dirt Catholics. I'm Jace and I'm James. We'll see you next time, thank you.