Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Religion of the Day (Part 5)
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Exploring the intersection of modern secularism and ancient gnosticism with "The Religion of the Day" from the University of Mary, the follow-up publication to "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission."
This is part 5.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Have you been to Stock and Bond yet?
Speaker 1:Is that underneath the old First National Center? Yeah yeah, that's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:I ate there for the second time, so picture this invitation coming down into your phone the day before I get a text from our executive director, peter DeCartree, and says hey, jace, just calling to see, or texting to see, if you're interested in pinch hitting for me for a fancy dinner with Archbishop Coakley and Curtis Martin at Stock and Bond at 7 o'clock. Would you be interested in joining them? And I'm like yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, please, please, let me go. I'd been there once before and I described the experience as a gospel presentation for my mouth because, the bread at this place was life-changing for me. I've never been the same in a similar way as a gospel presentation, like for the audience if you haven't been there, and like don't go unless it's like a big deal or like a milestone anniversary because we spent a lot of money at this place.
Speaker 2:Like it was our five-year anniversary when danielle and I went but I took I took my first bite of this bread and there's like bigger than normal salt chunks just sprinkled over the top, and the top is has just enough crispiness that it almost feels pretzely. But the second you get in it's like fluffy and hot and warm and has a nice um amount of water content I haven't eaten lunch yet and I'm very hungry and it's just, it was just insane.
Speaker 2:I was like I ate more bread than my steak. That's how much this bread impacted me. I still finished my eight-ounce steak, but I had like 12 rolls of the bread, so it was delicious.
Speaker 1:Did you have less than 12 rolls when you were with Archbishop? I was on my best behavior. Yes, I was actually fixing to talk about this part.
Speaker 2:This is the funniest part, probably, of the whole dinner. So Archbishop had been there before different meetings with important people, other bishops, They've gone there on special occasions. And I was saying, Archbishop, as we were pulling in, I was like, Archbishop, this bread is life-changing for me, Like I've been thinking about this bread since yesterday. And he was like it's very good bread, Jace. I'm like yeah.
Speaker 2:So we get in there, we're sitting around, we wait for Curtis and his posse to arrive and they sit down and a few minutes they're like what's really good here? And I just say this bread has changed my life, just just starting it off and I'm like I'm just not. I had more in italian years and you know I was dressed really nice for for the occasion, um, and so I'm just hyping this bread up like this is gonna oh my gosh bad.
Speaker 2:And it comes out and it was the worst. It wasn't like the bread was still delicious, but it wasn't to the level of the hype. Like the butter ratio was off. There wasn't really much salt crystals, it just Did you walk it back. It was a dud.
Speaker 1:It was a dud thing.
Speaker 2:No, I just let it hang because I knew that they would bring another one, yeah, praying that it would get better. But I was eating it. I was like man, this is not near as good as I remember. I look like an over-exaggerator, like the J stamp of approval is broken now and so I keep going. But then the next one comes and it's a good batch, yeah, and everybody takes a bite again. And then Curtis says out loud he was like this is really good bread. When the last one came out, I really was kind of worried about you.
Speaker 1:I was like thanks, curtis, that's great, yeah, nice, that's so funny, that's so funny.
Speaker 2:That was super funny. What else is going on? I'm in the. We have a group chat me, chris and another guy from Paca City named Aaron, and we just formed this little dad's clique where we all log on together. We'll talk to each other about what's going on in our lives and everything, but we're playing a video game called Grounded, where it's like honey, I shrunk the kids and you have to survive in a backyard where you're the size of an ant, ants will come, attack your base and different things. It's hysterical. But, yeah, kids go to bed, they fall asleep. Wham, dad's grounded, dad's grounded club. Wives are gone, our wife, like. You know sometimes what you know when we're spending time with our wives and doing things that we need to do, um, but there's an understanding. If no, like it's almost like you have to text to say you're not going to be there instead of instead of the other way around say you're not going to be there instead of instead of the other way around, say asking who's going to be on.
Speaker 2:So it's been a really enjoyable time for all of us.
Speaker 1:That's fun. It's good to have Chris recently it was that was pretty fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean, it was okay.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just it was okay, he's fine. You know We've had other guests Anyway. So we're finally back to book club. We are. It's been a bit of a journey, took a little break.
Speaker 1:And now we're back to the religion of the day. I'm sure you've heard of it if you're tuning in, but if you haven't, we have what? Three prior episodes, four prior episodes before this one. Producer A we'll tell you yeah, I think it's four Awesome.
Speaker 2:And so we're heading into the fourth part of the book, titling it Catching All the Diseases of the World. All the diseases of the world and kind of what that's alluding to, and we'll get to it more.
Speaker 2:Actually, before we start, let's pray In the name of the Father, son, holy Spirit. Amen, come, holy Spirit, you are everything to us. Allow that understanding to penetrate deeply into our hearts. Allow yourself to abide closely and dearly and help us understand our identity as beloved. Allow us to understand the church and what it is and what it isn't, and what it means what it means to catch the diseases of the world and how that's purifying and life-changing. Pray for all of our listeners and their evangelization efforts that it'll be fruitful and that our conversation will keep us on the path that leads towards you.
Speaker 1:In your name we pray, amen, amen. Father.
Speaker 2:Son name we pray. Amen. Amen, father, son, holy Spirit, amen, so catching all the diseases of the world. What does that really mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think the premise here is like we could be— I think there's hope in the premise this catching all the diseases of the world, but that, yeah, um, yeah, we could look at the fact that the church has sinful people and problems and progressive ideology in it, um, as this great terror, and it can be like there's a battle to be fought, but the hope amidst it is that, um, in God's providence, like the body of the church, christ's body, catches these diseases, these problems, and helps heal them from within.
Speaker 2:A vaccine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or like an antibody even and we'll get into some of that more and maybe there's more to add to it from your lens. But the first time I even because we allude to it earlier in the book or the author does the first time I read it, it did give me some hope because I think I'd in the past been like frustrated. I even reached out to in my youth. I remember reaching out to a high school theology professor. He was like well, the church has been pretty broken since Judas, so take some solace in the Lord's promises that the gates of hell won't prevail. And I have there. But I think, just seeing it through this lens, like, yeah, god actually intended that the whole world would. Because of our problem with, you know, original sin and our own free will and our own disobedience, the whole world is sick and the church herself. Wouldn't it be proper that she also contracts the illness, to be able to provide the antibody and to be able to provide the healing? So I think that's it at a high level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So, kind of like backtracking a little from that and developing an understanding of what the church is and what the church isn't. One of the first things that we talk about is that the church is holy right, that it's a representation of Christ, and there's—holy means something. But in our current—in our current—with the progressive religion of the day, progressive mindset, utopia is what our goal is, and because utopia is the goal of the religion of the day, we expect that the church live up to the ideal of being utopia and being this perfect place.
Speaker 2:But that's not what we're going for at all actually. But the difficulty is understandable because of what our culture has defined as the good and as we've caught the disease, as the church. But it's just not what Jesus intended for the church. It's a false perception that we need to be perfect. It's a neo-gnostic strain of thought. Two truths that are kind of tied to that is that the church is, by necessity, at the center of history, of human history, that throughout salvation history there has been clear moments of the Lord moving, and that's the way that the Lord has chosen to redeem the world. The second truth is that the battle to save humanity, the fight between Christ and the devil, between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the world, has been mysteriously ordained by God to take place inside the church. Those two truths will set the stage for, as we grow, to have a deeper understanding for the church and what it is and what it isn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting I remember that, just reacting to that, that this is taking place partly inside the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, if I'm honest, there's a big piece of me that thinks the church should be perfect and is frustrated that she's not right. But that's like I don't know. In reading this book, one default progressive belief is that all humans are innately good. And in ignoring the fall in that statement, right so where it's like God made all humans to be made in his image and likeness. Yet we are all fallen right, and so we denied kind of the second half of the reality and we were good by some arbitrary definition, not good by made in the image of God. And so it's interesting like, yeah, kind of makes sense that if the church is made up of humans, that there would be lots of effects of the fall found within the church and that God's redemptive work would be happening inside the church just as much as it found within the church, and that God's redemptive work would be happening inside the church just as much as it is outside the church 100%, and it's super annoying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of the tee up, but I think, transitioning into the next part, the shock of the incarnation. Jace, I'll just ask you for a second. If you were to meet a normal progressive person on the street and they were to kind of water down Christianity by comparing it to all the other religions, what's a common phrase? You might hear someone say.
Speaker 2:Well, that's your truth, but it's not my truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, We'll hear that. And then we'll hear things like well, yeah, Jesus was a good guy. He taught a lot of good stuff. Yeah, he was a great man. Moses was good, Gandhi was good.
Speaker 2:Confucius? Yeah, I think man is a good idea.
Speaker 1:Muhammad Late Tazu. There's lots of good teachers and so I think, even as Christians, I think we'll placate into this to kind of like be assimilated into someone and like make no mistake, there's truth in this statement. Yeah, like that's a true statement. He was good, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like in some sense, like from the comparative religion standpoint, like yeah, christianity is among the rest of them, it's a religion that teaches good morals and all of that, but if we stop there which is what the progressive belief system would want us to do, and honestly, if we're not being bold Christians and honest Christians we might want to stop there we're really like hiding a glaring obvious thing that Jesus himself made claims that are so radically and momentously different from any other religious figure and so if those claims are true, he's in a category totally different to himself, right, and in some sense, if the claims aren't true.
Speaker 1:he's in a category that should just be thrown aside, yeah.
Speaker 2:He's a loser. Yeah, look up, he's in a category that should just be thrown aside. Yeah, he's a loser. Yeah, look up the trilemma. The trilemma right From CS Lewis and that'll kind of illustrate that yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think we have to realize that there's just such a shocking reality of the incarnation God came here.
Speaker 2:Whoa the queen is coming.
Speaker 1:If what Jesus said was true, was before Abraham was I am, then he's an. I am meaning he's the same as God, the father. That puts him at the center of human reality and way, way than a than another religious leader. Um, and so I think it's. It's good for us as folks to be christians, to be sensitive. Like we're not suggesting by this reality that, like because he's our god, we're like better or something. We're not suggesting that we're better than other people, we're not suggesting that he's the only historical figure of interest, but it's. We're just drawing out the obvious fact jesus claimed to be god and took on earthly form. He walked amongst us and this is a cosmic significance. He took on our sins with his death. So like this is the event that interprets everything else.
Speaker 1:And to Jace's point, like the book quotes CS Lewis, like one must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement that, if false is of no importance and if true is of an infinite importance. Like it can't the one thing, christianity can't be as moderately important. So like, in that sense, like, while it feels right, it's kind of true that, yeah, christianity teaches some things that other religions teach when we get to the essence of who it's founded on and what its central driving force is that God became like us and that our religion was founded by the Godhead and he became like us and died, and that he gives us his body, blood, soul and divinity. Those claims altogether yeah, it's not just one among it's either so radically wrong or it's so fundamentally the center of all life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no. There's no in between, and we like to think that there is, you know, within all of this, and that that plays into the, the next place which deals with the, or the next stage, which it deals with the incarnation as well, but it's the understanding that it didn't happen just once. Right, it's happened, is happening and is going to happen. The incarnation is something that Christ has been incarnate with us, the entire time.
Speaker 2:It did not end with the ascension. It's an eternal reality. It's an eternal reality and a better reality than his physical presence when he says, like he says in John, I will not leave you desolate, I will come to you Like. The Holy Spirit is an improvement on Christ's physical presence. By the gift of the Holy Spirit, Jesus dwells in our very minds and hearts. Through the Holy Spirit, the pillar of bulwark of truth, and this is also partially where some more of that the church is holy comes from, but we're not talking about I think it's easy to think that sometimes we're not talking about me and you and our virtue. Right, that's not what we mean by the church is holy, we mean that the church's head is Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:even by the church as holy, we mean that the church's head is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being is active and alive and well within the church. Gates of hell will not prevail against it. So it's a really like. This book kind of made me take pause, and I don't think that I thought of the incarnation as an eternal reality. I thought of it as a historical event.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I'm on some of the same camp, I think.
Speaker 1:Intellectually I'm aware that's eternal reality, but I've never stopped and pondered like, what does that mean for me now?
Speaker 2:then what does that mean for the church at large?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's huge just like the access, the power and everything that we have. You know, we, you know we discussed this need for relationship and the only way you can have a relationship with Christ right now is because of the Holy Spirit and his musings and what he does and communicating with us in our minds, and it's just really important for us, with that understanding, to kind of go step by step. I'm gonna read off a few things. I may skip a few.
Speaker 2:The book lists a whole bunch of things, two things, a whole bunch of things that the Church is not not, so that we can have a better understanding of that and be purified from some of the diseases of the world, of what we're hoping for the church to be. A lot of them revolve around the fact that we're not perfect and that's a key factor and then talking about what the church actually is. So first is the church is not a society of like-minded individuals who have voluntarily gathered together for a common project. Church is not man-made bureaucratic structure to help things along organizationally. The church is not a humanitarian institution founded for the care of the poor. The church is not a utopian society with a blueprint for ordering human life. The church is not a democratic body that understands itself and its beliefs and keeps its ideas in line with its members of the current age, which is fascinating.
Speaker 2:The church is not one religious grouping among others of a similar kind. It is completely different. It's a repository of spiritual experience. The church is not a society of so many millions of people who happen to be alive at the moment. It is everybody who has been a part of the church before the church triumphant church, purgatorial church, militant here on earth. The church is not an archaic organization with an outmoded form of belief and practice. Church is not an unfortunate mistake, a human corruption of what should have been a purely spiritual and immaterial set of beliefs and sentiments. Anything in there slap you in the face.
Speaker 1:I don't think so necessarily, but I think it's important. Some of these are just simply straight out false and others touch on a true but very limited aspect of the church's nature. So I think in some sense there's probably some people that the church is not a humanitarian institution founded for the care of the poor, the sick and others in need. I think it's important to let that sink in. How bold of a statement that sounds compared to how some people might view the church. I think a lot of people view the church and see our social justice mission and that's the whole lens the church is interpreted through, the whole lens the church is interpreted through. And I think we need to receive that statement and realize like, yeah, it's because we're compelled by love we do some of these things, but that's not who we are. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I really like the one, like the one that like struck me the most was the church is not an unfortunate mistake, human corruption of what was pure Because it's really easy for us. Virtue is hard because it's the middle of two extremes most of the time. And I feel like this is an extreme that's really easy to get to if you're hard on yourself, if you're a successful person and you're like man. What if the church didn't mess this up? It's something really tempting to think about.
Speaker 1:The other thing I would I guess a chastisement to the one that kind of shocks me is or that makes me reflect is the church is not a society of like-minded individuals who voluntarily gather for a common project, like, if we think about, like, one accident of the church is not a society of like-minded individuals, who?
Speaker 1:voluntarily gather for a common project. Like if we think about like one accident of the church that I love or that we all love is like the community, right, um, and like the yeah, almost the coziness of it, right, like the jacuzzi tub catholic. Like if it were that I think I, we know it's not that implicitly. But if we were to ask how we're acting, like how am I behaving, how am I living out my faith? Like I'm almost assenting to that. I believe the church is that way, if I'm honest, right.
Speaker 2:Super, true, very good. I don't want to dwell too long on that one.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying we shouldn't enjoy the communal realities of the church, and that's in the essence of it, but, um, I don't know is that? I think it was at one of these conferences in the past couple years. Someone said something like your catholic faith for for many of us, the cat, your catholic faith is a is a pastime and it's like it's definitely not a fast time so what the church is.
Speaker 2:The church is the new humanity, redeemed human race, sharing life with god himself. Heavenly body pulsating with divine brightness and life, whose members are no longer subject to earthly morals. Part of a vast company of god's presence, church is filled with the beauty and light of God and centered on the figure of Christ. The vast majority of the church's members need no faith because they are already home, sharing in delighted communion with God. Angels are fellow members of the eternal church, powerful beings reflecting, praising the goodness and light of God.
Speaker 2:Mary, the Queen of Heaven, the mother of the church, is a figure of beauty and authority in the church's life. Mary, the Queen of Heaven, the mother of the Church, is a figure of beauty and authority in the Church's life. Within the Church, heaven, the Great Ones from every age are united together in friendship and joy. The portion of the Church now existing is the Church Militant, the straggling human members of the Church on Earth. We who are still broken, diseased and in the process of healing are the least numerous, least impressive, least potent least permanent part of the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one. I love that. You're not that guy pal.
Speaker 1:You're not that guy, oh goodness. Yeah, I love the emphasis of where. I mean, how many bullets were there? One, two, three, there's like 10 bullets and there's like, okay, here's that, that one. The straggling human members of the church is the part that we see and get frustrated with. Right, and it's a piece of the church, but it's not the whole thing, and the holiness of the church being holy is the fact that all these other aspects of the church are working out the salvation for this aspect of the church, like that's why the church is holy, because it's actively redeeming the church.
Speaker 1:militant.
Speaker 2:Super true, I could think about this like for a while, and at least permanent. Yeah, super true, I could think about this like for a while, and least permanent yeah just not, just not.
Speaker 2:There's not a huge deal. Yeah, you know not not to say that, like, what we do here doesn't matter, but there's just. There's like an invisible reality, and then there's like the physical reality, right, and for us here in this time, the physical reality feels the most real, but in truth, the invisible reality is much more real and much more long-term, which is a beautiful thing. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that kind of leads us into the next section, the divine and human church. I love this section. To sum it up with a little analogy Like we know Jesus to be both fully human and fully divine. The church is his body, so it's similar. The church is both human and divine is really what this section gets at.
Speaker 1:And I think that, just like Jesus, when we looked at Jesus and when people looked at him in the scriptures and when we try and look at him now, it's really only with eyes enlightened by faith that we can truly see him. Similarly, it's really only with eyes enlightened by faith that we can truly see him. Similarly, it's really only with eyes enlightened by faith that we can see the divine work of the church alongside and amidst the human work of the church. But we can see that even for Jesus, his divine nature was hard to perceive. The Jews murmured at him because he said I am the bread that came down from heaven. They looked at him and said who is this that delivers demons by the power of demons? They didn't understand or see his divine nature, but those who were following him and had eyes of faith could see his divine nature.
Speaker 1:So obviously the most important aspect of the church is by far the divine nature, like the presence of the Holy Spirit within it. We've got the sacramental life, we've got the living fire of the scriptures, the Holy Spirit in the heart of every believer, the truth about God and humanity that are treasured and taught, and then, like yeah, the reality that Christ is at the head of our church and at the core of the life of the church, and it is he who moves and heals and works, and so and that's the purpose for everything the church does is this divine life. That's what everything stems from, and that divine life is made visible in the human things of the church. So we see all the Christians around the world. We see bishops and priests, religious orders, thousands of church buildings.
Speaker 2:Miracles.
Speaker 1:Miracles, organizational, legal structures, philanthropic structures. So Christ came to found a kingdom and the church on earth does have many characteristics, characteristics of a human kingdom, um. But when we see the human kingdom, characteristics of the church, we have to realize, just like that preceding chapter Well, that's big Actually, all the things we just mentioned. That's a lot of visible stuff. Right, it is the smallest, yeah.
Speaker 2:Puny.
Speaker 1:The smallest part of the church right, so that that like social architecture that we can see and touch and interact with.
Speaker 1:Is is so small and that's um, you know, but it's the outward sign of the inward reality, like that's the sacramental things we can see, but it's such a small part of the whole divine church, um, and so I think that's important for us to to realize, um, the. The other thing I would say is that, um, you know, similar to Jesus again, um, similar to Jesus again, was his strength in his human nature or in his divine nature. It was in his divine nature. Same is that for the church. While there's a lot of physicality of the church, the strength of the church is found in its heavenly divine life. And I would, even though we're the smallest, like the church militants, the smallest part. I love how this chapter closed with, like the encouragement and I'll just read it verbatim because I think it's really powerful.
Speaker 1:But the strength of the church is rooted in the things we can't see. It's rooted in the eternal regions where we can't touch it and it's animated by the life of God himself and he's inhabiting the church as his body and its Milton wing. That's us. The small part right is strong when its members are becoming holy, usually in hidden ways that no one can see. Without the vision of faith, all that can be seen is a gathering of humans and their various organization and activities.
Speaker 1:Humans are often unimpressive and are sometimes downright evil Humans like us. And I love this, yeah, I love this. It certainly crosses my human heart, good and evil. I love this because the emphasis is if I, if Jace myself, you guys listening, any of us who are frustrated by the realities of the physical, human church that we see or the human world that we're frustrated with, if we take our motivation to become holy, to become more obedient to the Lord, to shred our own disobedience, to shred the idea that we can make our own self and that we need to surrender everything to God instead, those actions strengthen the militant reality of the church. Those actions ensure that there be more in the heavenly communion, especially when they're hidden, and I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:That is fascinating.
Speaker 2:What you were talking about as far as like, or what we were talking about is what is most real, is, like the key point of this next one, like as faith healing the mind's eye.
Speaker 2:St Thomas Aquinas described faith as a habit of the mind whereby eternal life has begun in us, allowing the intellect to ascend to what is not seen. So faith is this key? Is this pair of glasses, or faith is the equivalent of taking a blindfold off of our ability as humans, as souls, as body and soul, to understand and affect and see this invisible reality that is much more real to us than the physical reality. St Catherine of Siena says the intellect, which is the eye of my soul, is illuminated by the knowledge of my truth. The eye of the soul has faith for its pupil and center, and the light of the faith enables the soul to discern and know truth of the Word incarnate, mm-hmm. So faith is the way in which we are able to interact with any of this and is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and is something that is a gift and is grace to us. Is faith?
Speaker 2:Pretty good shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how the saints often echo the words of Scripture.
Speaker 1:In Hebrews, faith is called the conviction of things not seen, and then the book quotes St Paul in 2 Corinthians 4.18. We look not at the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen, for the things that are seen are transient but the things that are unseen are eternal. Yeah, I don't know, it gives me solace. There's a thread line of what the call to the believer is to respond to the progressive world around them and the invasion of the church is like I'm to continue to remind myself of the things unseen and the things that Jesus promises, but then I'm also to have a conviction that growing in the unseen things, growing in patience, growing in love, growing in a surrender to Christ, like that growth where I could be invited to create my own truth or create my own reality from a progressive vision. I could move inward on things that you can't see, things that wouldn't build up a modern, that wouldn't promise an earthly change, but those are like eternal and lasting ways I can spend my energy and time I absolutely love that.
Speaker 2:So coming into we're coming into six now or seven six, so in the likeness of sinful flesh.
Speaker 1:I I loved this. It's it's kind of building off of the um on the human and divine church piece but then also off of, uh, just the radical nature of Christ's incarnation and I think it gives us a little bit of thought into how the church and how Christ are taking on the sins of the world or taking on the illnesses of the world. I love how the book kind of poses a question Like if we could contemplate how God would save the human race before it happened, we could think of all sorts of scenarios like a D-Day invasion or some angelic undertaking or something like that. Right, but they pose we probably could have never actually envisioned how God really would have done it. We can now see it with the way Christian eyes and hearts, but it would have been hard to see. And in the book I identified that St Athanasius wrote of a double, like a twofold kind of dilemma.
Speaker 2:If you haven't read On the Incarnation, listeners.
Speaker 1:Honestly, after reading this little section I was like I need to read it's insane, it's insane I had to read it for um my master's in theology and whoa really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I I can't wait to read it then. I can't wait from what we heard here. So he kind of outlines that the god, the trinity, had this kind of dilemma of how to save the human race. It was two considerations and he couldn't. It wasn't like his problem wasn't a lack of strength to destroy the forces, and so there are these two considerations.
Speaker 1:One was that the really only possible way for humans to be saved was to undo our original rebellion and reunite us to the friendship and love of God. Had he used conversion or coercion or force, it might have resulted in how Satan's deal worked out it just stuck right. So he wanted to use a tool where we would actually cooperate, in that A willing turn from our rebellion would be the only thing that could affect a cure. But then, second, there was a claim of justice that needed to be addressed.
Speaker 1:So the human race was we were guilty for a rebellion across all of salvation history, really, and of course at the fall all of salvation history really, and of course at the fall against God and his own goodness, and that justice had to be fulfilled. So his solution was to take on the whole of humanity, all of our destiny upon himself, so that he could accomplish what we couldn't and regain our innocence by overthrowing the oppressor. So he'd do this on our behalf, as one of us. Yeah, and this is where, just like, the church takes on the diseases of the church. The church does that because Jesus did that.
Speaker 1:And because the incarnation is internal. That is what our lord did for us. So, like, by becoming human, like he took on everything that we receive from the fall and like I don't know that's really powerful, like just the humility reality of humanity was powerful to me once. But to really think about, like the consequence of my sin is death and separation from God forever, like ongoing temptation, ongoing suffering, sickness, like hatred, violence, like all of these things that we wrestle with in the world, the Lord took that on Like he was tempted, he was hungry, he had to toil, he had emotional and spiritual warfare. He had like all these things our Lord took on himself and in a mystical way he didn't just take them on in his own humanity, he took on all of our humanity and felt all those sufferings that all of us feel.
Speaker 1:Like on the cross, yes, there was that physical suffering, but if you think about the emotional and spiritual suffering that we feel when we're in sin and when we're emotional, like all that stuff times the amount of humans that would ever be on earth and ever have been, that is what the Lord's heart was feeling. You know it's like crazy to think about. And then here's the beauty right, he, in his very blood, took on all of that, and then his divinity allowed him, when he died, to raise his humanity, to be immune, to have the antibodies, and thus he shares with us. Yeah, through the Holy.
Speaker 2:Spirit to be immune, to have the antibodies, and thus he shares with us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Through the Holy Spirit, Through the Holy Spirit, Through the Eucharist, in particular his own body and blood, to give us the antibodies to our own fallen nature. Wow, you know it's like, so like I. When I was preparing for this and reading that I was like man, like we could probably spend. Yeah, we could do, we could do a whole thing A whole thing on that, Like I just want to like take that to the Adoration Chapel.
Speaker 2:God is the pine soul of the heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want to take that to the Adoration Chapel.
Speaker 2:Wait, what's like a Gen Z slang that I can say we had?
Speaker 1:air pod to the heart the other day.
Speaker 2:What is? Does Gen Z clean things?
Speaker 1:I can't, I don't know, I'm not coming up with it. Anyway, I don't know what it is, but I think it's powerful to realize that Pressure washer to the heart. God interiorized our own evil and then in his humanity and in his divinity rose that and healed it and gives it back, and gives us back his divinity.
Speaker 2:So in closing, catching all of the zzz's of the world, really there's two fronts. There's the reality of the external reality, of the external forces of darkness, satan and his demons, fighting against the angels and us for the lives of the church. Evangelization is every necessary campaign to be in that place. The second thing, the second front that we're talking about and really there's three, but we're talking about two today is the fight for truth on behalf of humanity within the church. Are those two things? And all of these things that we've just talked about can be seen in the church today and it can be even more readily apparent.
Speaker 2:I'd encourage somebody if you Googled salvation history and started to apply and think about what are the two aspects that are happening here. There's a lot of the part of the book that we won't be getting into here different snapshots like being Israel, being God's chosen people, the drama of the gospel, early church, just like salvation history throughout history is, showcases those two things and are readily apparent. But when we come back next time you know, maybe six months from now we'll be discussing what does the battle look like inside of the church, which I'm really excited to dive into with all of you guys. But this has been Red Dirt Catholics. I'm Jace and I'm James. We'll see you next time, thank you.