Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Religion of the Day (Part 6)
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Exploring the intersection of modern secularism and ancient gnosticism with "The Religion of the Day" from the University of Mary, the follow-up publication to "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission."
This is part 6.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
All right, we are here joining you with Book Club again. Pretty excited, are you?
Speaker 2:starting the episode. I'm starting the episode. Yeah, I'm so proud it's been five years.
Speaker 1:It's been five years. It's been five years. I usually have no creative banter, but we were discussing that. Our last episode, which is the next one that I'll drop, that we're going to show up to wear cardigans to fully embrace that we're in book club and how smart we are, I'll buy you some glasses that don't have a prescription. Yeah, then I'll look really sophisticated, a lot smarter than I really am. That would be good.
Speaker 1:That's good I will admit I'll have to find the right one, so I don't look too puffy. That one's probably from college, but producer Avery informed me that that is the part of cardigans.
Speaker 2:You're supposed to be a puff. I just want to know where Avery got that nugget of wisdom, he was really quick on it.
Speaker 1:nugget of wisdom, he was really quick on it. We should probably have producer Avery comment a little more, because that was a good thing.
Speaker 2:They're snug Comfy Blanket that's skin tight and accentuates all of the features you hate the most about yourself. So some people can pull off cardigans better than others. I guess wearing a cardigan is really just an understanding of how comfortable you are in yourself. There you go.
Speaker 1:Holy people Are there. Cardigan tailors Can I get that?
Speaker 2:Can we just shave that down A little tighter here, a little looser. Give it an A cut. Is that what that's called? I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:I think that's a female thing. Feel free to email in any critiques about the cardigans.
Speaker 2:Next episode actually please do so. I never wear one again, because I might like it.
Speaker 1:Danielle said she likes you in a cardigan she would like me to wear one is what she said but I have still not. I gave her the freedom to buy a cardigan so she'd like you to wear one, but we don't know that she'll like you in one.
Speaker 2:No, she hasn't seen it. She likes the idea of it. She likes the idea of it. Yeah, we could take a poll. One for James. One for James, yes or no? That would be good, that would be hysterical.
Speaker 1:I love that. I do like sweater weather, you know when you get to pull out all your different fall stuff Because I have like seven of the same shirt. I just rotate through I find myself wearing my favorite three over and over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like wearing a pullover. Pullovers are big. I'll come to work with you know, I'll have my collared shirt underneath. But it's a pullover and I don't take it off, so it adds a lot. It's like wearing a hoodie, but somehow it looks professional, I think fall in Oklahoma might be the best season anywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like perfect weather and we don't have all the spring allergen stuff. I mean, maybe I'm not super allergenic, but fall doesn't seem to mess around I also love overseeding a yard. Maybe I'm a nerd, but like when you fall is just such a perfect time to sow things from seed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, too hot, yet I do that all the time overseeding. I know what that means and and stuff like that. I was speaking of just being outside and enjoying what I was disc golfing yesterday. This is a continuation of my love. The start of this should be labeled the continuation of Jace's love letter to sparkling water and my dedication to it. Oh okay, which brand? So I'm rocking Waterloo right now. I don't consider it peak. I still consider bubbly peak.
Speaker 1:Bubbly or LaCroix which one's better Bubbly? But I feel like if we're wearing cardigans, we've got to drink LaCroix, sure, or have whatever it is in a glass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or really more like a Perrier maybe or something like that. There you go.
Speaker 1:Dude. Okay, you're going to tell a disc golf story. Yes, wait for a second while we're on the topic of bubbly, things I have found a newfound love with and I'm probably going to say this wrong kombucha, kombucha, kombucha. I got so much shade for saying that wrong the other day, but that with with so like half that half sparkling water really good, like if you enjoy a good down here and you're trying to cut back on the beers lucha 100% what I've drank kombucha twice.
Speaker 1:It's fine you don't share the same love I do like well, I maybe, maybe, maybe you will mix it up this way. That's what we'll do. Cardigans I'll have. What is it? Kombucha, kombucha yeah, we'll just have a whole I'll have that and the sparkling water I'll put like a lime in it, then it's a real book club, because there's like kind of tastings, yeah, aligned with it better thing would be a whiskey, I guess, or scotch yeah, that would be more fun With a fire.
Speaker 2:So I was just golfing. I went with Xander to go disc golfing over at Delisi Park and I threw in a couple of my Waterloos which I get. The reason I rock Waterloo now is because they come in 12 packs, which I appreciate, and I can get them through Amazon, subscribe and Save. So every two weeks I get sent 60 cans, it's like a gift yourself at the door every two weeks.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. So I had them in there and we were walking and I was holding it. I was holding one and I hit a root or a little divot or something and so I hurt my ankle.
Speaker 1:But the entire fall, and Xander mentioned this immediately.
Speaker 2:I was very held your water up right held the water the correct way, like it was your ankle would be better if it I'm sure it would be, I'm sure it would be, but there was still. There was still over half a can in there and I was like I'm not losing that. I need it glass half full I like it, uh, and it needed to keep it, so um but yeah, so I'd. So I'd rather take bodily harm than lose my sparkling water.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's so fun. Grayson's playing fall ball right now. Well, so is Theo. They both are it's so fun. Back to that perfect weather. You know, in the spring it's a little hot. You know, at 5 o'clock in the fall it's perfect, perfect. The Squires of Christ's King had a pretty good game last night. That's Broom Press.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:The boys are in the zone, they're having fun. I'm trying to teach deliberate practice, without necessarily my boys know the word. Are you familiar?
Speaker 2:with it.
Speaker 1:Deliver, practice, deliberate, practice Deliberate practice, yeah, practice, deliberate practice, deliberate practice. Yeah, borrowing from a book called talent is overrated, but it, you know, there's the whole like 10,000, 5,000 hour rule or 10,000 hour rule of like practicing something, but I don't know, in sports sometimes you can experience shame from not being perfect at something, or you think you can only be approved if you're doing it right yeah.
Speaker 1:I think, if we're all honest, like there's some deep wound in that from from the fall, from the fall from parents from sports school early on, like we experienced, like I'm only worthy of love if I do things great. So when I noticed that my boys like I stop it, I stop what we're doing. I just ask like hey, do you think dad loves you any less, or do you think dad loves you more or less? When you mess up, and the first time I asked that they, they said less. You know it's an intuitive answer. And I so they'd say less and say nope and they go more nope, I'd love you.
Speaker 1:The same always. And is the point to be perfect at the game? Yeah, no, no, the point's to always be learning. So if you, I'm going to point where the goal is and, like if you hit one, I'll say perfect, so you know you got it. But if you got it every time, would you?
Speaker 2:get any better, or is there anywhere to go? Yeah, is there anywhere to go? Is there anywhere to learn?
Speaker 1:No, I was like so every time you're close I'll say good and I'll tell you how close you are. And so the deliberate practice is basically you're on the edge of your comfort zone. If you're watching someone do it, it looks bad, like it actually looks like failure. And um, there's a known feedback loop and usually someone coaching you. You're in the state of deliberate practice there because basically you're aiming for a particular goal, you're missing it very frequently and you're getting quick corrections on how to get back to it, and so they've all kind of embraced that. And I got to Theo's game late because it was right after Grayson's and I went and talked to him. I was like, hey, emily told me he was like really mad that he wasn't hitting. Well, I was like, hey, do you need to hit it perfect every time?
Speaker 1:No, do I? Care if you hit it perfect every time? No, what do care if you had a bird every day? No, what do I want you to do? Just try hard, yeah, just notice what you missed and try a little better. The next time. Okay, have fun, you know yeah, and some other dad like saw that conversation kind of smiled like okay, that's it, that's cool yeah I love that.
Speaker 2:it's really fun. Yeah, I have one more funny anecdote before before we move into book club. So this is during your period where we had Alex on kind of sub in for you with the podcast we would give somewhat updates on fantasy football, which the season started last night. But Alex isn't here. He isn't a part of the Pastoral Center League anymore, so we had to figure out, well, what could we do, and what we decided to do was to do a draft with 10 computers and then us two and play the league that way and adjust the schedule so that we play each other every single week throughout the season.
Speaker 2:So we do one draft, um and uh, my team was better and I want to phone in and and and I know that would be, that would be really funny if we could put bring him on and help him, have him help tell this story. But I I'm gonna send him this episode because he's gonna, it's gonna crack him up. So we draft, we start talking smack. I have a particular I don't know I get to him. I can get to him pretty good when we're talking smack with each other. I'm like, let me know when you want to just concede this season and redraft. Maybe a day or two goes by and he says, all right, you win, I want to redraft.
Speaker 1:So then the following.
Speaker 2:So I create a whole other league.
Speaker 2:We do the same thing again, but I rename the league 2-0 because, I beat him last year, this one, and now we're doing a third and we draft, we do a randomized draft order and I get the first pick in the draft, which wasn't great for him, and he lasts a little bit longer. Pick in the draft, which wasn't great for him, and he lasts a little bit longer. Um, and I just keep saying, well, if you want to do like I, I sent him a message yesterday morning and was like, hey, season starts tonight. If you want to do another redraft, this is the end. If you want to do one more, and because he'd you know, and he'd been saying, oh, I got you, I'm gonna beat you. And then he, and then he just was like, yeah, let's do it, 11, 11, 30, let's, let's do another try.
Speaker 2:But each time I made him, I made I was like this is a full season loss when you do this. Um, so now we're in a league called three and oh, I'm just, uh, beating him. And then he said these alex said the funniest, he's so funny. He said, man, it's gonna take me four years to have a winning record in this league because of my decisions, uh, leading up to it. So shout out to alex, I've been having fun. We've been having fun doing a one-on-one fantasy football league.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool, he's doing great.
Speaker 2:He's enjoying his being the therapist and all that stuff. Wish he was here still, though. Yep same, but yeah. So if you see Alex, ask him how he's doing in our fantasy league He'll enjoy that.
Speaker 2:But anyway, what we're talking about in Book Club today, the battle inside the church which is an exciting thing and we kind of have hinted at it in our own non-expert ways, as we've been. We're discussing throughout this book, as he's been like, kind of unveiling each key tenant of what it is. But we're looking at it on a more practical level you know, within the church now, um, yeah, the thing that I liked the most about his intro to it was that I mean it's fundamentally a battle, an interior battle in ourselves, right I really loved that.
Speaker 1:I appreciate even the opening. He kind of sets the tone really well with the opening quotes to the chapter from St Paul and from St John Henry Newman. St Paul says I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them. And I like in that, like obviously he kind of there's a preview that Paul gives us of, like the other evil people inside the church. But then he says, from your own selves In some sense that's like speaking to us the disciples like in your own self you're going to be evil, you're going to draw people away. And so it's both like a caution to be on guard against the wolf in sheep's clothing, so to speak, but then also to be on guard between the, to be aware of the good and evil in our own heart. I think that's a good, a really good premise. You know, a really good thing to have in mind as we go through this chapter.
Speaker 1:The last section, we did the last podcast. We talked about the different fronts, that we kind of fight this battle on the different ways, and I remember you and I were chatting about like where's the third one?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:As we were reading it ahead of time. So he actually unveils the third one here which, like Jace mentioned, is the spiritual battle. It's the unseen, it's the interior life, it's the struggle for hearts and minds and, just as a review, like the first front is the external fight against the darkness of the world, and then the second one is this internal battle within the church, so that you know there are people who've been inspired by evil that are here.
Speaker 1:And then this third front is really I feel like where most of this chapter is focused on is that that third front is in our own selves so very excited to dig into it.
Speaker 2:Another one of these points that was in the intro thing that it was talking about how to respond to bad leaders within the church, whether they've been infected with this particular progressive gospel or maybe have never had that full response and encounter with the Lord and the gospel, and it details the different things that can happen for that person and how they can come to power in the church and things like that. But I just really didn't even ever think of it in this way that we're called to honor them regardless because they are our leaders and Jesus spoke to that specifically in Matthew. I mean he says practice and observe whatever they tell you. In Matthew I mean he says practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do, for they preach but do not practice and I think that I don't do that as well as I probably should.
Speaker 1:It's like if I've observed that there's some hypocrisy or even little h hereticness coming out of them heretical-ness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just write it off.
Speaker 1:I just write everything off, they say might be a temptation and what's interesting like we'll get into it later but I think that's really dangerous. Like we see people in the church who disagree with some things Pope Francis has said just to cite like one of the biggest examples and the tendency tendencies to write off everything he says, to not pay any attention. What a fallacy, because Joy of the Gospel, for example. There is great stuff in that and obviously it bears Pope Francis's name, but it's also all the people that contribute and help him and there's so much truth and goodness there To write it off would be such a mistake, you know, and there's obviously other examples, but I wanted to cite the elephant in the room that people have done that with our own pontiff.
Speaker 2:Which is wild, yeah, and it's tempting, like there's any leaders.
Speaker 1:Just is a human being and is gonna the other thing, where that's dangerous in my opinion, and why Jesus has a lot of wisdom for us there is, then I'm leaving it to my own discretion if I just write off a leader, right, and so I'm leaving it to my own interpretation, my own discretion, but it's like God willed this person to get here, yeah, and for me to subjectively pick and choose things can be dangerous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think we can still have prudence right, like if we notice that this particular thing seems heretical and doesn't conform to scripture, okay, great, but as a human. We have a brain, yeah, as a human who's fallen into progressive thinking like if I just don't like what I heard, I I'm now in the habit of writing it off and lots of things that are true and good and that I should be obedient to. I don't like it, yeah, so the the honor thing was the thing that stuck out the most to me like I've fallen into the idea of you know, like this wasn't.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've been a done a decent job, you know, just continuing to respect Pope Francis, even if there's something that or decisions that is you know, his offices have made or that I've had an issue with.
Speaker 2:But, like there are, there are cardinals in the United States that I have had zero respect for and have like really actively, like called out as, like I probably said, evil before and I don't think I don't like looking at this like the, the, the respect that I had, um, that I should have for that regardless regardless, should have been there and I'm saying this to call myself out, not necessarily you, but you can agree if you want to.
Speaker 1:Later in the chapter they talk about Jesus saying the extent we love is based on the extent we're forgiven, and I think the illustration of just totally writing someone off, not honoring them, is an illustration of pride. But it's also an illustration of that perhaps in that moment, in that season or whatever, like in my own heart, I'm not being reminded of how much of a sinner that I am, how much God has forgiven me, what debt I really owe and what debt has been purchased and eradicated, and how I've been adopted. And how amazing that is If I come from that place and realize like, oh, jesus is doing the same for him. He's broken, he's a sinner, he's fallen. There's good and evil crossing through his heart too. So instead it's like one of honor and respect, but also one of hope, like the Lord is actively trying to heal and forgive every child of his. And to heal and forgive every child of his.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just have to remember that, yeah. So after that intro, it kind of transitions into this embrace of a different gospel and, I think, the big for me, I kind of saw like this, versus that sort of happening in the chapter, with regard to us Christians embracing which gospel we're embracing. And so, you know, those of us who've heard the good news responded with our whole self, you know, made Jesus our Lord and, you know, had him at the center of their life, like we're not really on the lookout for a different gospel, necessarily.
Speaker 1:But there's a whole bunch of us and like me included, at a certain point in my life that okay, yeah, like I said I was Christian, I said I was Christian, I said I was Catholic, those things were important to me but I really was not conformed to Christ, like I had not responded to that gospel. So I was just ripe for the picking and it was a luring to have to buy the progressive gospel that I can save myself that being more talented and more having these techniques or relying on strengths and human ingenuity could save me and fix everything.
Speaker 1:So we kind of see those two distinctions, I feel like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can definitely see those two distinctions and there's a wide variety of Gospels that would go under the umbrella, under the progressive thing that it's just really easy to throw in with or to just let be a part of our natural thinking, and it, like this, is half of why I, like I, there are seasons where I become more and more convicted about this. I was discussing in a small group the potency of the gospel and how key it is to like come back to it, and I think that I was actually discussing this with. I was with Curtis Martin when I was discussing this. I was with Curtis Martin when I was discussing this. I was asking him like, gospel fatigue is something that.
Speaker 2:I see in, like I've heard that before.
Speaker 2:I've heard it before can we not do, can we not do the intro? I know Jesus died on the cross for us and we were made good and all of those things, and not allowing them to like to penetrate our heart again. And I was communicating, so I asked him was like how do you that has to be a something that's happening in an organization is biggest focus, or something like that. What do you see in that area? Um, and he's and there wasn't anything particularly special about what he said, but what he did say was that there was just that's just all the more reason to like keep hammering it and letting it continue to be in there and having it be the focal point and standing firm against that thought process and that idea and calling that out. When we see it that it's not an intro.
Speaker 2:It's not a piece of knowledge, it's the very core and the basis and the thing that holds us close. And the embrace of a different gospel is a prime example of it's not hard to change the gospel just a little bit, or to believe a little bit less in that Jesus repaired the relationship and that there was really nothing that we could do about it, or the reality of when sin broke the relationship, it was over for us like dead men walking.
Speaker 2:It was over for us like dead men walking and what the Lord did and how grandiose and how amazing and how in awe of that we really should be. So, yeah, I think the embrace of a different gospel is a scary thing, Because when we water down the gospel, conversion is watered down. Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was interesting the book talked about like it shouldn't be surprising to us as Christians that we have a lot of progressive gospel believers dressed up in Christian clothing or a lot of, you know, progressive gospels and statements that sound a bit Christian right and almost, if you kind of contemplate it logically, like if Satan's the great deceiver and the confuser and the divider, it would make sense that he'd try and create an infinite reality of half-truths and pseudo-gospels and alluring promises when there's really only one right. I did like the conviction he said. You know that shouldn't really worry us Christians, like we shouldn't be concerned that this is dressed up in Christian clothing, that many fall in the category of pseudo-faith, but we should actually be hopeful in that if we do take on the need that we really have to be more converted ourselves, develop apostolic strategies to proclaim the gospel in our homes, our schools, and our parishes then, it can be heard and it can be dynamically potent.
Speaker 1:You mentioned Curtis so I want to share an analogy. He shared an analogy of what someone's like when they assent to who Jesus is perhaps Catholic, baptized, gone through all the things. What it's like before they've met Christ and received the gospel and what it's like after he was like. Just imagine my wife and I are driving up to see our newly finished beautiful home and I'm coming to show her. We're very excited and we pull in. It's really dark, it's in the evening, we can't see anything. We get in there and we can't even see this beautiful home. We go in, we go to the breaker box, flip it on, all the lights come on and there's a beautiful interior. It's illuminated, we see everything. We see the special nooks and crannies, the gifts, the details.
Speaker 1:And for a Catholic to embrace the gospel when they haven't before, they have the sacramental grace, they have the knowledge, they have the infrastructure. They have the sacramental grace, they have the knowledge, they have the infrastructure, they have formation, they have confirmation. It's like latent resting potential. And now the door is open. Seek, knock and you'll find. Right. Or knock on the door, be open, seek and you'll find. And once we open the door. It's like flipping the light switch on the whole interior castle. The beauty, the infrastructure that God's given us starts to be illuminated, yeah, and so I think we shouldn't be discouraged that there's kind of dry wood everywhere. We should be hopeful that, oh, we know the fire for that wood. So as we transition kind of, the next several topics are all maybe where more subtle infection occurs. So here we're talking about like denial or acceptance of the reality of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Oh the beautiful, like just really clear thing yeah super clear, right, and the rest of these are more granular and kind of illuminating the different ways that good and evil penetrate our heart, but then also the different way our vision is blurred and clouded and infected by this and not fully whole.
Speaker 2:So the key thing on this front is and this was a really fun section to read um, it was just the temptation to pride yeah right and what pride looks like and we've discussed this before that pride in 2024 is different than the traditional understanding of pride we think of nose up, I'm better yeah, huge ego yeah see you later. Yeah, you know, it's the we think of. You know we think of the.
Speaker 2:You know the titans and those anti-hero shows you know, that we've enjoyed watching like breaking bad or um you know, mad men, whatever you want to say, we think of something like that, um, but it discusses like the two fronts of pride. That, I think, kind of just really illuminates it for us in in 2024. I think we all have a an understanding that, like we all, we have a hard time thinking of thinking of ourselves as good people, sometimes, like we're very, we're very hard on ourselves, harder, probably harder than any generation has ever been on themselves.
Speaker 1:Lots of toxic shame, a big lack of confidence. Honestly, yeah, which is interesting to think about, like being very prideful and having a super low confidence, right, but it but makes sense um, and so we gravitate towards that externally, and it would seem to like if we were.
Speaker 2:If we have such a low ego or something like that, um, lower sense of self, then it would seem to point like, well, that's not pride, but that's like an excess of humility. But the reality is that we suffer from this. The book uses a visionary schizophrenia where at one point, we're among history's most fragile and unconfident humans, but in our approach to things divine we are one of the most arrogant and closed off that the world has ever known. And so there's that piece, but we've almost courted off the spiritual realm for ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like we're almost overcompensating in a way.
Speaker 2:So we're aware that we're so not great, we're aware that we're so like not great, and so we've tried to we've kind, we've put ourselves in the place of God to overcompensate in a way, right when we're trying to make our own identity, self-creation our own way, instead of accepting reality, and so we're sort of pushing reality aside and forgetting, like while I'm deeply not confident in who I am, I'm pushing all those areas that I'm not confident down into the background and I'm inflating the other things. Or even I think that, like, thinking about this makes me think about, like, just like, the epidemic of the lack of volunteers for whatever you'd like to have volunteers for within the church.
Speaker 2:Youth ministry, dre, like, even like serving at Mass. All of those things are an example of there is a I'm not good enough thing going on there as far as their sense of self, but at the same time I'm better than this spiritually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that teaching is not for me kind of response. It was interesting as we're talking about it.
Speaker 1:I wasn't thinking it when I read the book, but I'm drawn to like mine and Emily's own testimony on contraception and she'll mention this about herself when she speaks on it. But when we were talking about it and I was convicted about the truth and wanted to be faithful in kind of our pre-K and in class, her immediate response was one of like that's wrong, they've got misinformation in there. Like that's not true. I have a medical background, you know, picking apart all the fallacies of the pre-K and, of course, on having an openness to life. And so there's this thing of like yeah, whatever I see it, but no, I'm going to do this my way and I know it's right.
Speaker 1:And so when reality, the lack of confidence and the weakness in her was like I'm not ready to accept and relinquish total abandonment and to God for this, I want to control it my own. So there's a bunch of woodiness of what ifs, if I'm obedient, and it was overcompensated with this great amount of pride of like I know this is right, this is good for me, I got no problem with it. And what's interesting, as we speak on it you can see in the eye contact and the response the same thing in people and what's beautiful. The book doesn't talk about this, but we just talked about embracing the gospel. When you proclaim the truth of the gospel in one of these places, that pride can go away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's so clear yeah. Like God can penetrate that false idol of self. That's happening there in control and yeah, it's a very, very interesting contrast of our lack of confidence.
Speaker 2:And the book kind of proposes as an antidote, which is this is my favorite thing, because I don't think we use this word almost ever. I'm not sure if I've ever heard this word in a homily, but I would love for it to start is the idea of magnanimity. Yeah, I love magnanimity. It's hard to say. It's probably why we don't say it Largeness of heart magnanimity, courage, courage and confidence.
Speaker 2:But that's what we're called to do as like an antidote, like in helping our friends and as people who are seeking for the salvation of the souls around us. We have to be looking for ways to encourage, to bring about that sense of magnanimity that you are a part of salvation history, that you are a huge, important piece in the salvation of people's souls.
Speaker 1:We should do a whole episode on magnanimity. It's one of my favorite virtues. If pride—this is interesting, actually—if pride is the root of all the cardinal sins, if it's the lead-in to all like, magnanimity is like the, makes every virtue better.
Speaker 2:You know it's like this. Yeah, it's an accelerator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's basically like a full embodiment of charity, right. Like it's this like enlarging heart of a super abundant love, and it really magnanimity can't come about without grace when you think about it, like if you ever think of like super generous person that's got different motives or ulterior motives or something they really can't embody. This like I want so greatly the good of the other person with my entire will.
Speaker 2:For this next section. I think it was my favorite titling for it and it kind of is still in line with where we're heading. Um, soft peddling the fall. It wasn't that bad. Yeah, it's not. Um, it's easy to forget and skip over the idea in the gospel presentation that, like I kind of touched on it a little bit earlier, but the highlighted again the fall was brutal and is devastating. Yeah, and we're living in that. There isn't hope remaining in the fall. The only hope is within Christ. And you hear people arguing over a beer. I've even done this. Are people basically good? We discussed that. And there's even philosophical, like philosophical and theological differences between, like the way Catholics would view it and the way that a Presbyterian would view it, or someone who's a Calvinist would view it, or the way that Luther would view us. Like Luther would write that we were a piece of poop covered in snow and we remain pieces of poop throughout the entire thing.
Speaker 2:Whereas our gospel would say that we were made perfect in the image and likeness of God, and that is good and we are good as a result of that, but the fall was that catastrophic?
Speaker 1:That we were no longer innately good.
Speaker 2:That we were no longer capable of our innately good Because we were separated from God Right, there's still the potential for good, obviously because we were still made for goodness, by our design, that's what we're made to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but at our current state we're not. It's not the default yeah, we're not defaultly good, which I think we can fall into like Christian optimists that like oh, everyone's good.
Speaker 1:And even like one of the like chief virtues of the progressive gospel. I don't know that the book said this, but you hear it from people. It's like why can't people just be good people anymore? Or like the virtues to be a good person, and it's like that's actually something I can't muster up myself. You know what I mean. I can't muster up myself. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I can't follow you there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like like to to be goodness in the fullness of the word is like to be transformed by Christ. It's interesting, I like their like secondary statement after the title was like, or more precisely, a denial of our own personal implication in the guilt of a fallen world. So like, yeah, denying the fall, but also denying that I'm fallen, and I think that's a really slippery slope. Both are slippery. But if I'm like, oh, I'm not that bad or whatever. Or like I don't, my sins aren't too great, you know, aren't too terrible, or whatever, like I'm not talking about self-loathing here, but just denying, like I don't know what's interesting, like if you go to, if you're familiar with 12-step literature, just to digress for a second, like whatever the ism is, they'll usually identify like hey, I'm so-and-so I'm a insert your ism, ick, insert your ick, alcoholic, whatever.
Speaker 1:Well, it's an interesting struggle that one could think about. That's not my identity to have whatever ism, but it's the same thing as saying I'm a sinner and so our identity is that we're children of God, made in his image and likeness, and, furthermore, since we're Christians, we're adopted. But that doesn't negate the reality that we are also sinners, because we have to be sinners to be adopted. We have to be sinners to be saved. Yeah, the fall has to happen. You know like it's what earns for us salvation. And so what's interesting? Denying the fall or to happen, you know like it's what earns for us salvation. And so it's interesting. Denying the fall, or soft peddling or watering it down or making it weak sauce, like that is denying who the lord is, denying the the great forgiveness he gives us.
Speaker 1:It's turning him into like a nice guy, jesus that taught some cool things instead of some that radically came into this world humbly as a human and fully divine and took on everything that it meant to be a broken human in his humanity and and like fought with the devil right, like he's a warrior, not a, not just a lamb right. He is the sacrificial lamb, but he is one who fought for fought for us the best way, the way that he wrote it.
Speaker 2:I highlighted it here. That kind of communicates with this, because I think this is a lot of Catholics. We can get this wrong, because it's pretty subtle the differences between us or somebody who's like we're totally depraved you know doesn't matter, or something like that, which is not what we're saying. We were created in goodness with a capacity for goodness, that and those things stayed, but the fall like tainted those in a huge way and made those much more difficult. That we're not. We are not fundamentally good as a result of the fall.
Speaker 2:We have capacity still, just because of the way, just because of what was left over from the fall that God had created in us in his image, and that's just. I think it's a really key point as an understanding, because I think that when we believe people are just kind of good. The impetus for, or the excitement for, sharing the gospel with somebody is like oh, he's a great guy. He's fine, that it's okay.
Speaker 1:It's very unloving to make that assumption when you boil it down right, like how much do I not love someone to not proclaim the gospel to them? Because I think I'm actually a it down right, like how much do I not love someone to not proclaim the gospel to them? You know, like cause I, I? I think I'm actually a decent person, right Like um, but I'm very aware of all my brokenness. I'm very aware of what God has purchased for me and what he's done and how he's healed me and how he pursues me. Well, welcome to everyone else's reality.
Speaker 2:And if they haven't heard and if they don't know, then it's way worse. Yeah, and so there's just a conviction that can be derived from this just real understanding that we are fallen and everyone around us is, and that it's a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if we don't believe that, we're just like ignoring things Jesus says.
Speaker 1:Like Jesus said, you know he wouldn't. Or it was said in the scriptures that he wouldn't entrust himself to humans because he knew what was in man. He also tells his disciples if you who are evil, like to the people he loves, the people he's donated most of his time to, if you who are evil, know how to give good things to your children, and how much more does God give to you? But he's like. Jesus isn't pulling any punches. We're evil. We have evil in us. He's very clear about that. I also love the book. It's kind of similar to what I ask my kids about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was about to mention that God doesn't love us because we're good. I love that the book mentioned that he doesn't love us because we're good, but in order to restore us to his goodness that he made us for and he first loved us at the beginning of time, right so that we could love him. But the active state of his love is to restore us to that same wholeness, that spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, god does not love us because we are good man. There's a lot there. So then, but to to dive deeper into this we were discussing this earlier this is the more like kind of geeky side of what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the spiritual side so then, like underline the whole rest of the page your highlights um.
Speaker 2:It is um, but we can still look at it from an objective standpoint. People are we could have just in 2024, we could have if we wanted to look at it from a particular lens we could say we're probably the most moral people in history.
Speaker 1:We're a lot better than we were pre-Roman.
Speaker 2:Empire Pre-Jesus, the things that were happening then, all of those things. Even the progressive religion is better.
Speaker 1:Even atheism is better.
Speaker 2:All of that as far as just the generic cultural of the world Evil still exists. There's still horrific things that happen. You could say that it's better, especially with post-, and the book makes the point to and, and people use that as an example of people are generally good.
Speaker 2:We're in a one of the most secular societies that has been around since Christian Christianity started and it's better. And we have to remind everybody we've been baptizing people for thousands of years. In fact the majority of the world is baptized, and the book goes out of its way to say that puts a bridle on evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it says something like baptism suspends demonic activity for the baptized. Something like baptism suspends demonic activity for the baptized. And that's an interesting thought. And then I love how they continue the nuance. It's like okay, if we have the majority of the world baptized and a good chunk of that population washed into a different way of believing than Christianity, you have this protection from the Lord, from what he promises in baptism, but then like a watered down reality in the lived reality of their life. And so the book doesn't say this, but it kind of it makes less visible the drastic polarities of good and evil, because the evil's tempered a little bit, or a lot of it, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah and there's a lot of things about the. There's a lot more justice in the world in specific places. It talks about how the social circumstances, especially in the United States isn't everywhere are you're set up to win in a lot of different ways. There's still injustices, but way more than a serf was in the Middle Ages as far as setting up to win in their social situations. The thing that I highlighted that I think illustrates our like, illustrates more so our fallenness as a society, even though it looks better, is that both is what happens. When things go bad and when things go really bad, and that's something that happens for everybody. There's going to be suffering and our reaction to suffering kind of exposes that evil, yeah, crisis moment, great suffering, the evil comes out.
Speaker 1:You see the normally everyday unseen reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so there's opportunities for saints, for great heroism and some of those things, and also horrific cruelty and selfishness. And we hardly just need to ask which is the more prevalent response to hard things. And it's all hidden because it's all in our own interior disposition right. High percentage of the time. You know that, like we're not, no one's putting on a billboard or posting on social media. The crappy thing that they did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting he also mentioned a little bit before that point, uh that as baptisms have diminished in the west, demonic activity has increased, like the exorcists are much busier than they had been in centuries, and so it's a fascinating thing that we see, like I think, sometimes some of this, we can see a little more of the polarity, and it's probably because of less of the supernatural protection being present. So you have more humans innately made for good and innately fallen because they were born into a fallen world that don't have the protection that God offered in baptism. So, while there's still a prize to be won and we should pray for them and pursue them, in that way the evil one has more agency to move and to control and to hijack I think, to have a magnanimous outlook on our very selves, and that that's paired with the humility of it the understanding that we're capable of the same horrific cruelty as anybody is something that we have to get through ourselves.
Speaker 2:I think that it's a really dangerous thing and leads to that. It's probably a piece of that fallenness of the gospel soft peddling when you hear somebody beating their wife, hitting their kid, whatever evil you want to put in there that there's just an understanding of I'm capable If the right situations happened, if enough of the wrong things happened, and I'm not relying on the Lord and the Holy Spirit in those moments Uniquely capable.
Speaker 2:It could be anything like drugs, alcohol, infidelity, whatever. Pick your poison, and I think that there's just a sense that we have to communicate to that capability.
Speaker 2:And you know where? I think I saw that In a public setting. Where I saw that in my favorite way, it was with Father John Ricardo, when we were on the podcast and we were talking with him. He was very down. He was like I am the greatest sinner. I forget exactly what he said, but you could tell, being in the room with him, that he meant it and that it was real and that he was was thankful. Well, yeah, it's interesting. The book.
Speaker 1:The book says quotes jesus in luke 7, 47 he who is forgiven little loves little. And when ricardo was sitting here and he was he was actually articulating some of the things we're talking about. He was talking about some of the evil within the church, some of the corruption and, and maybe some solutions, some temptations we fall into. Like. He paused on that before he continued and said like just before I continue, I gotta admit like it's total grace that I'm here, even talking about this. Like I'm such a sinner and the lord has done so much for me. Like you could hear contrition and you could hear that he knows mercy Right. Like he has received forgiveness and it's changed his life. Alex Sanchez once told me a quote that I've borrowed, but like God literally gave my life back to me. You know, and someone who's been forgiven knows, like, can feel that in their heart and see themselves where their life's going asunder, where their life's just full of the fall. And yeah, being able to live from a forgiven place changes a lot.
Speaker 2:In short, you're a sinner. Stop acting like you're not.
Speaker 1:Moving on Good summary.
Speaker 2:Forgetfulness of the cosmic order. It's similar but different For the last one. The last one was like trying to tell ourselves that we're not that bad. This one is trying to tell ourselves that we're on the same order as the all-powerful living God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw this, I mean. So the premise in some sense is like even pre-Christian, like the ancient Greeks would have viewed that, like they were subordinate to the cosmos and they were part of this dance, you know, and they were receiving things, so that they didn't have the revelation necessarily, but they were receiving much more than they were achieving or acting upon. And, in the progressive view, we think that we're the center of the universe and that we're the main cause. When, in reality, we're a part of a symphony. And to the extent we harmonize with what the Spirit is doing, with what the Lord is doing, with what he's arranging around us, we'll be more fulfilled. To the extent we receive, accept, live in reality, harmonize with what he's doing, we'll be living a fruitful, fulfilled life. It's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I underlined this and it made me think of a podcast I listened to recently. He said our way of handling food, sex and the natural world are meant to reflect and express God's cosmic meaning. Our relations with one another are intended to replicate and participate in the inner life of the Trinity. So really, like all, the order of the cosmos and of life is to get me to live like God lives with himself. And I was listening to a podcast. It was Matt Walsh, who I enjoy, um, and then what's that guy? He interviews a bunch of thought leadership guys and he's I can't tell if he's on the path to conversion. Peterson, no, um, rogan, no, it's not reuben not joe rogan, yeah, joe rogan, okay.
Speaker 1:So joe rogan interviewed matt walsh. He did, yeah, because of the what is a Woman movie, and they aligned on a lot of things and Matt's pretty good about trying to deliver truth. Matt Walsh is Catholic, trying to deliver truth but not get in a religious argument necessarily. But Rogan brought up, really wanted to go there, and so Rogan brought up homosexuality and he kept returning to this same question, like hey, like two people love each other, like it's a way they be happy and fulfilled. Like he brought up gay marriage specifically, like the gay marriage means something to them. So like what's wrong with it? Yeah, what is it hurting? Yeah, what is it hurting? And they were kind of taught, they just kept. They were a stalemate as they're going back and forth, and so I was observing it kind of through this lens here.
Speaker 1:But what Matt kept saying was like really true and good, but he wasn't going to religious yet. But he was saying, well, the reason I have a problem with that is like what is marriage for? Like the fundamental difference is those two men are men and thus they can't give life, they can't sustain a family. He's like, oh, but they could adopt. He's like, yeah, but by their nature they can't do that. They can't do that like, by that they're not ordered to be one with each other in the, in the act and have a child like they're just not ordered that way, so it doesn't make any sense. So he's giving like a really technical definition. But I I'm in reading this I was like, oh man, I kind of wish matt could have gone like a step higher, because he was speaking to this like in that technical definition, like, okay, I was thinking about that.
Speaker 1:Like sure, could to strongman this, could a homosexual couple in a gay marriage reflect some reality of the tr? Okay, you could probably strongman that and argue like, yeah, you could get unity. Yeah, they can have unity. They could have willingly go to the other right. But what does the Trinity do? It gives life right, it bears life. The Holy Spirit literally springs from the relationship with the Father and the Son and so, through that view of the reality, if we're to be in the likeness of God, that doesn't fit gay marriage, doesn't fit the cosmic dance.
Speaker 1:And so what Matt was doing, it was good and it was true and he was avoiding an argument. But they went there and still had a stalemate. But thinking about it this way, I think we have to be bold to your point. On magn way, I think we have to be bold to your point of magnanimity. We need to be bold to invite people to like, hey, I'm not saying this because I'm this rigid catholic who's a, this is the way that I can get to heaven, or whatever yeah, and things that's part of it, the rules and that they were given.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is like, if you think deeply, yeah, like I believe there is a all-loving being that wants the best for me In everything about life. He's aligned in a way to make me more like himself and bring me into himself, and it's for that reason that I don't want someone who has same-sex attraction to get married to someone of the same sex, because they're being deprived of the reality to live into who God is. They're buying a lie and I want him to be with me in eternity. I love them that much. I might not be able to be their friend here, but I want them to know the truth.
Speaker 1:You know, like that proclamation is different. It doesn't look like you're a rigid bigot. They could be like well, I just totally disagree. You're an idiot, sure, but like, if you proclaim the gospel, the gospel has power. That is the Lord's resurrection. That has dominion over everything, power over everything. But anyway, to me, what I was watching in that conversation and I'd invite you guys to go look it up was I could see so clearly Rogan's caught up in the progressive worldview. He was just so seeing it through the lens of make your own happiness be fulfilled, and so it was just very hard for him to hear what matt was saying, and in some sense. Matt probably doesn't look through the progressive lens very often, so it's probably hard for him to see the block that um rogan had you know, yeah, and to speak his language, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's such a cool. It's such a cool different angle to the, to the objection of I don't want to do rules and different things, but there are much less rules and much more like. This is how the Lord has revealed what being more like Him is.
Speaker 1:The rules are just a translation of how to live into the order.
Speaker 2:How to live into that and to learn to be love itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is super awesome. This is such a great chapter. I kind of want to land the plane here and get a part two. Yeah, I think that's wise, so I think that I'm excited to continue going on. So, yeah, this has been Red Dirt Catholics I'm Jace and I'm James.
Speaker 1:We'll see you next time you.