Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Religion of the Day (Part 7 - Final)
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Exploring the intersection of modern secularism and ancient gnosticism with "The Religion of the Day" from the University of Mary, the follow-up publication to "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission."
This is part 7.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Welcome to the epic conclusion of Book Club. We have dressed for the occasion. This is my first time in a cardigan. Is it your first?
Speaker 2:time in a cardigan. It's probably somewhere between third and seventh time in a cardigan. Third and seventh Somewhere around there.
Speaker 1:Not our usual garb. You know, we've decorated. We have these antique cameras from Minolta who knows if that's how you're supposed to say it, but it's pretty fun.
Speaker 2:You're supposed to look. Cultured here, so like you're supposed to. Cultured here, so like you're supposed to.
Speaker 1:Like I'm supposed to give the air of the.
Speaker 2:I know exactly just like you know the contents of all of these books very well here read those books have discussed. You and Chesterton could be best friends and chat about all the contents of Aquinas' book on Aquinas absolute buddies.
Speaker 1:before we started recording this, avery took a picture of me to send to my wife, because she's always wanted me to wear a cardigan and always thought it would be awesome, and it just hasn't happened. I have one question about the glasses.
Speaker 2:Would this be your shades of choice in a poker tournament, or do you have a different?
Speaker 1:I don't wear shades. Oh, really, I think shades yeah, yeah, I mean I've been tempted. They just frankly, I've worn them like playing with buddies at a home game and I have misread my cards because of how much harder it is to see before and it was hysterical and embarrassing and and I didn't enjoy that.
Speaker 2:So shades impair your vision more than they hide your intent.
Speaker 1:I mean, they can hide things, but I just think that I have a good enough poker face that it wasn't necessary. Yeah, and I think the live tells thing in poker is overblown. It's been a long time.
Speaker 2:I haven't played poker in a cool minute Speaking of wagers. Last night we were at the Squires all the Christ King boys.
Speaker 1:You're throwing money down on the Squires game. No, we have not gone to that level in the stands.
Speaker 2:Speaking of wagers, A few of us I wouldn't put it past, because we have been performing pretty well, chiefly the game before two games ago, I think, a miracle happened because seven eight-year-old boys listened to the things their coaches were saying remarkably well, and so we definitely praised them for that, because that's a transferable skill, for sure.
Speaker 2:We kind of hung with that as the chief praised the game.
Speaker 2:But because they were listening, while their fundamentals were really sound and they played very good against a very good team, played very well against a very good team, but the yeah, last night the wager, I guess Jamie Chastain, our head coach, at some point we hadn't heard it, but he had told the boys, like if they turned two, like a double play, that. But he had told the boys, like if they turned to like a double play, um, that he'd take everyone to Brahms and uh, it's a lot of pressure, I know. And so he, uh, he had said that. Uh, he caveated, like I want you to catch the ball and tag a guy out on the tag up, but I'm talking about the talent of like stepping on second, throwing the first, and so last night so the hard one we were up pretty well. So we changed our pre-scripted lineup, which is we kind of balance, trying to rotate the players around but also let them have some proficiency around a certain field point. So we're not like binary of like.
Speaker 2:It's all about winning, but we want to, if you repeat, develop them all yeah if you repeat something over and over in the game for a kiddo like it can, it can help them get some mastery. But we discuss like third, fourth inning if we're up like let's rotate them more than we're contemplating like bases. They don't play as often to get those reps in outside of practice and so we do that and his own son, parker's, is just a total joy and a total goofball sometimes. Uh, he, uh, I love him.
Speaker 2:He was at second and he's got so much energy. But he, uh, he got the ball kind of fumbled around a little bit, tagged the guy running from first to second and then had, honestly, like a less than perfect form throw that like gave us suspense where the ball just barely got there because it kind of hung in the air, got him out. And the kid who caught it on first also doesn't play first very often, and so he caught it while his foot was on the bag for like half a second. Then his foot came off the bag. So we didn't know where the ref was going to call that technically if, as long as he didn't drop it, if his foot was on there for a millisecond, it's out. So he called it out and immediately the bench erupts super excited. But then the next statement is like are we going to brahms? Are we going to Brahms?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what time was it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like 8. Oh goodness, 8, 8.15. And Jamie, we didn't know he'd made the wager with him, I guess, but he kind of confessed. Then he's like yeah, I told him, if we turn two, this isn't what I meant, but I'm probably going to have to honor this commitment. And a pretty involved dad from the stands is like hey, coach, I think we could probably find an attorney in the stands here who would represent the boys' interests on the prom seal. So Jamie acquiesced and said I will take you to proms. That was a great play, but not tonight, because there's school in the morning and it's already late.
Speaker 1:That works. An IOU is always solid with a kid because they don't forget.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So now the coach is indebted the borrower slave to the lender.
Speaker 1:It's a reality. I, um peter, and I have peter's gotten really into like kind of like wordplay, imagination type games, like danielle totem, one that's called. Like I'm going to the movies where you say three abstract things that are in a movie and you have to guess what movie it is. And he's enjoyed that. But one that he likes to do with me is he calls it story battle, where it's him and me and he dreams up some sort of scenario and where each of us is just trying to subdue the other person oh, that's awesome in in this story.
Speaker 1:So you have too much practice for this and so so it's improvisational. And so he'll be like I get a car and drive away and you have to catch me. And so I'm like well, I get an airplane and start flying towards you and shoot a harpoon gun to catch the car and slow you down. And he's like well, I put a shield on the car so you can't catch me. And I'm like well, I make another harpoon gun that can go through shields. And so we just we've gone for like 30 minutes before just getting after it. And at first I get I'm not as careful with my language of how all of these different things work but then I start like shield proof and like start removing his typical ways of getting out.
Speaker 2:And then you preempt his next rebuttal. Basically, I love that.
Speaker 1:Um, sometimes I'll let him, I'm like, and, and then I just kind of get. I'm tired of coming up with stuff and I'm like and I lose, or or the vice versa.
Speaker 2:He's done the same thing but that's got me into that. That is fun. Take that out of your playbook.
Speaker 1:It's a good time, but we're representing, we've dressed up for the occasion and we're doing the end of book club. And last time around, for chapter five for those of you who are following along we kind of left a few things off coming through it, but we just wanted to take a quick mention of them. As far as different things, we ended up with the myopia of secularity.
Speaker 2:So this was fighting the battle inside the church, right, right, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And so the sixth one was the utopian drift, which refers to how the world wants everything to be perfect and how we can want the church to be especially perfect, and fighting against that and having an understanding that it's not going to do that. Seven, I think, is like you can talk about seven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we've made allusion to seven before, which is the lure of the silver bullet, and I think the the chief takeaway. I mean, we all know what a silver bullet is, but the chief takeaway is when we find ourselves like tempted to think this will fix it, and if that this is anything other than the person of jesus, um, all the human strategies and tactics we come up with, and even like a spiritual thing that's true in of itself but isn't the truth of Jesus like that won't solve all these problems and in some sense, like the myriad of problems we have God's not going to solve all of them in the way we think anyway. And they're and they're not the end of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and eight, seeing the world with dualistic eyes. That's just like oversimplifying that it's us versus them all the time, or that it's either good or it's not good, yeah, like if we could just get rid of Judas over here, it'd all be better.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's not the whole battle. Yeah, not the whole battle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not the whole battle at all. Another one that you and I fall into a lot is using the enemy's weaponry to fight the Lord's battle.
Speaker 2:So we might stick with that one for just a minute, cause that's pretty powerful. Yeah, I holy cow for sure. I think, yeah, it's tempting to take like the strengths we have that we've probably inherited through human formation and think like, okay, if the church just had a little bit more of this and I can bring it to them, or these people I know can, like we would solve so many problems because grace builds on nature, right, right, like that's really not the answer, like this is a supernatural battle and we need to fight it on supernatural terms and with supernatural means.
Speaker 1:And if we're not, like we're embracing a losing stance, yeah. If we're ignoring one for the sake of being really great on a human level, yeah, you lose. Like I was having this discussion with a guy that I've started discipling last night, I was like man, I kind of ended our time with this and I was like, by the way, prayer is the engine that makes everything go and if you're not relying upon the Lord and his grace to convert you every day, then it's not gonna matter, which we've said a million times on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I love how the chapter ends before we get into winning stance, and I think it's a good tee up. It says that if we fight, if Christians fight the devil by trying to press into the works of the flesh, like try and you know, use greed, anger, power, politics, whatever, to serve the spirit, the enemy just laughs. But but one act of humility has the enemy flee. And, and I think that's what we need to realize, is that, like me, embracing you, embracing the faithful, embracing the normal mortifications that come in life. So the sufferings that are already here, those with those that seem beyond reach, reach, and those that are as simple as doing the dishes with great love instead of with pride and this I'm above this that act is more powerful than some great show of physical strength or intellectual strength, for sure.
Speaker 1:So like going into the winning stance I mean the part that we're going to spend a lot of time on is. It starts with reading from Ephesians 6, 10 through 17, where it's that like be strong and courageous and that's the scripture passions that a lot of us are probably pretty familiar with putting on the whole armor of God and doing all of that. But it bolds the word stand, because of how often the word stand is in the Scripture passage over and over again, and he begins to theorize and I really agree with this that the posture of standing is what a Christian is called to do, and so I almost like it a little bit more. We talk about surrender all the time, but the idea of standing not so much in a, not that we need to be specifically on the attack, not that we have to be in an offensive posture or run or climb or challenge, but just stand steadfast and allow the Lord to like to fuel that.
Speaker 2:Yep, I love the image of it because and I like that you mentioned and juxtapose surrender I think surrender can be well. I think it's an appropriate spiritual term and something we have to embrace. If we don't understand surrender, we can. Surrender can look like acquiescing, surrender can look like resigning, surrender can look like abandoning, and those things aren't the surrender that the Lord calls us to, and so the surrender would properly be embodied in the stance right.
Speaker 2:So if you think about what it would mean to stand before the greatest army and you're the only one standing there, it's like the only way you're going to be able to muster that up is if you know the armor of God that's around you and you know the sovereign power of God to handle this. And so you're, like, appropriately unable to take the stance you're taking, and so you can't stand that way from an unsurrendered place because you're surrendering. Like I can't take this army down, like the Lord will have to move. And so I agree with you in some sense, like in the act of standing, we actually have to address our fears and limitations and our littleness and rely on a power much greater than ourselves, which standing requires surrender is what I would and standing elevates the surrender Because there's just not so much of a movement in that spot and standing also like.
Speaker 1:Like speaks to me of like persistence and how important that is, and I think we've mentioned persistence in a key way earlier in this, earlier in book club. But I think that, like, the thing that I highlighted here is that christians attack the evil of the world and the challenge, the supremacy of the prince of darkness, by refusing to be moved off the ground, by staying in the fight no matter what, which spoke a lot to me is just like there's just always going to be hits you know, every every time I meet with somebody in ministry and and get deep with them like there's, there's something that's like hurting them, like the brokenness of the world isn't, like hurts all of us and affects all of us, and and being willing to just get
Speaker 1:up, you know, each time and get back up and continue to move forward is a really key piece as far as standing goes of, just like. It talks about how the devil wins when we just get too tired and we're just like nevermind and we just give in. And we see this and I'll see this in people where they're crazy involved in their ministries and they're excited and then something happens that causes a disillusionment, maybe the fallenness of the church, maybe, you know, whatever failure around them that causes them to lose confidence in this, like kind of this, like dualistic, dystopian thing, dystopian thing. Um, they just walk.
Speaker 1:They walk away people who are talented and like even, maybe even had a prayer life or were key into that place, and then they'll just walk away completely and like and and people can feel like, especially if they fall on a regular basis in whatever way that there's just no hope. You know we can take like a, they can tend to take like a calvinistic view of it, like I remember I talked to a guy when I was a protestant who was like, yeah, I'm just not predestined for heaven, like I'm gonna go to hell and there's nothing I can do. Wow, like, and that is that's what satan wants all of us to believe at the end of the day which just isn't true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting as we're contemplating stance, I'm thinking of three different stories of this across the life of the saints in the scripture. One is St Clair, the other is St Paul, who we hear quotes from the scripture, and the other is an example of the book uses. Um, christ himself. Um, st Clair, you know? Uh, one woman in her prayer life feels God compel her to beg that this army be stopped, that that the war be over and that they don't advance. Um, and she stays with that prayer, and then the Lord moves her to bring the Eucharist to that they don't advance. And she stays with that prayer, and then the Lord moves her to bring the Eucharist to the front of the battle, and St Clair stands at the front of the battle with Jesus lifted high, and the army does not advance. So, quite literally, we all have the same opportunity, not always before a visible army we can see, but but through a more vicious, in front of a more vicious horde of barbarians that we cannot see, we are able to proclaim the truth and love of Jesus and cling to his promises and hold that in front of our enemy. Um, claire, claire was victorious in that account. Um, I'm sure she had other reasons she needed to stand and cling to his promises and hold that in front of our enemy. Claire was victorious in that account. I'm sure she had other reasons she needed to stand, and I'm actually unsure of what came about in the war after that, but I'm sure there were more spiritual battles.
Speaker 2:Paul I mean, he's on the offensive, he's out there, he is doing this. They even limit his freedom, put him in jail, and he has victory in Christ, with all these letters that he writes from jail, many of which we read, and so there's kind of an eternal consequence in the wind of Christ for his chains Right. And then the last one the Lord, who saw Satan fall like lightning, goes into hand-to-hand combat. After his own death, he descends into hell. I don't know what happened there, but sometimes it's worth thinking about um and uh. It's kind of paradoxical, because it was actually a stance that killed our lord, that crippled him, that crushed him. Yeah, that was the path to his victory. And so that's kind of how we feel when we, when we face something insurmountable or we face our own ego, is it feels insurmountable, it feels like a heavy weight, it feels unwinnable. Well, those are the places where the Lord wins, like he wins with those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah it talks about, which I love. Like the real christianity are the martyrs who stood and were and were slain, not someone who was an amazing conqueror for christianity, and the first thought that I had of it was, like there's a distinct difference in when christianity was heavily persecuted and its growth versus, like, when we go on the offensive against something as as Christians. Um, like like the crusades, for example, like you know, they were successful in certain areas, but ultimately or maybe for a brief moment of time, but ultimately not. And you know, the posture of attacking and fighting and conquering the Holy land, like didn't necessarily yield any fruit, whereas like just one martyr, you know, standing in the face of it all and dying to himself in Christ is our hero and it's significantly bears a lot more fruit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's put some explanation to Jesus' words the kingdom of heaven. It's like this in the kingdom of heaven, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Right, right.
Speaker 1:And then we're shifting into, like, the third point of, and this is something that we loved. I even mentioned this when James and me were reading this together.
Speaker 1:I was like yeah this is the part that that we've talked a lot about, with these things, which felt good, but it just continues. This keeps coming up for me as presenting the gospel in the apostolic age and that having Christ being at the center of what we're doing and that starts with. The more deeply we are converted with the gospel and having an understanding it, the more we bring our converted selves to the task of witnessing, and I think that this is the Church. Grasping this particular point as we're transitioning from Christendom to apostolic mission is gonna be the point where everything turns around. Apostolic mission is the is going to be the point where everything turns around.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, yeah, I love that. I mean, he kind of unveils several points in this. You know, reality that we have to proclaim the gospel in our apostolic age, um, and I do love that it starts with first we have to, um, sadly, present the faith to ourselves, um, and so I think, like just a challenge to anyone listening, like and it came from last episode where we covered in chapter five and last episode, but to the extent we're forgiven is to the extent we can love. And so, at its essence and we've covered the four points of the gospel, we covered a lot of that, but like, I just want to remind us at its essence, like it is the reception of God's mercy. That is the most important thing. Like, if we repent and believe, if we receive Jesus mercy in the most broken, hidden parts of our heart from that place, it'll actually be impossible for us, if we're awake, but to like restrain the mercy of God from coming out of us, and so it's a little bit of a backward step, um, but I guess I would challenge us all.
Speaker 2:I don't know if the book totally said this, but I just have conviction in my own life. Um, recently, uh, with the words of the centurion um. We say I'm at mass Lord, I'm not worthy that you should enter under my roof. But only say the word and your servant shall be healed under my roof. But only say the word and your servant shall be healed. Jesus said to that centurion I've met, I've met no man of greater faith in all of Galilee than this one.
Speaker 2:And I think he he said it for two reasons One, because, coming up to that point, everyone Jesus had healed, Jesus physically touched or they touched him. And in the centurion says because he knows how he has men in his command, so he knows how it works. He can say a word and things are done. He's acknowledging that Jesus has authority over the entire universe, all events, and just with his word anything can happen. But secondly, and I think a little unnoticed is, he says that he's not worthy for the Lord to enter under his roof.
Speaker 2:So repentance preceded this great faith and was mixed in with this great faith. And so I would just encourage all of us, me the first look back on where the Lord has forgiven you and those things you're holding from him and not being forgiven of, take to him, take to another, another human, take to the confessional and let mercy come over your life, Um, because if we're in an active state of repentance, then we're in an active state of being forgiven, and from that conviction the gospel has power, Um, and so I don't know, next time you're at mass, go ahead and let out the reasons why you're not worthy that God should enter under your roof and know that he forgives those reasons, and he'll be in your roof. He'll be at your table eating with you, but he will also say the word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that and it's just so real the understanding of the power of the gospel right.
Speaker 1:Like I loved it when we had Father John Ricardo and and he like put it in such vivid, like visceral terms of like you are a human trafficking victim and you're in a cage and you're being abused and used and this person comes and saves you and takes the gorillas out and gets you there, like that's the depth of the love and the more that we can consistently embrace that and remind ourselves of that. It's an important thing. The second key piece within presenting of the gospel that it talks about that I have poo-pooed and not been as excited about, but this particular passage that kind of restored my confidence in this area was the importance of having an awakened mind and what it means by that is that we're mostly that we're consistently receiving formation and receiving things that like awakens our minds to truth, beauty and goodness and everything, and that's been something that you know the church has been probably you know, I don't know better at—.
Speaker 1:there's something that I did really early in my conversion into the faith of just really reading everything that I can reading church documents, reading the early church fathers, reading beautiful books on theology and becoming awakened to some of that reality was really key for me. But you can have an awakened mind but not have the gospel implanted on it, and sometimes those two camps are at odds with each other.
Speaker 1:We're like, guys, we're just presenting the gospel and that's what we want to do. But there's also this idea that we have to help awaken the minds, and Archbishop talks about restoring wonder, and, like, archbishop talks about like restoring wonder, and so it's kind of like it kind of felt like a call out for me of like you know what? I've just gotten to the point where I'm like, yeah, all that high intellectual stuff, that's all well and good, but if you get the gospel right and figure it out, you're going to be fine, but there's a reality that it's all intertwined Both both and figuring it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting, it's similar. This wasn't in the book, but to me it feels a little bit similar to when Jesus says not everyone who says Lord, lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Now, in some sense, in one lens that's from behavior, like are we saying things and not believing them. But in the other sense it's like, hey, you can't just call me lord, like you have to take on me through everything and but then? But then also like kind of what this section is saying is, um, that okay great that we have god's mercy and all that, but like there's so much fallenness across all of my mind and vision and way of seeing and relating to the world that that if I lean in and let all that be reformed, there's just way more soil for the Lord's fruitfulness to be sown into in Him, who hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then we talk about the necessity of a true narrative and this is like you just got to believe that you're a part of the story and like a key part. We can talk about the Bible and salvation history in really intellectual terms and look at it as history, but we really should be thinking of it as like our family history and what our roles are, continuing into the world and like being emboldened emboldened by our history and wanting. It's not just an interesting thing, it's like it's meant to be compelling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so to both end there too, we can't forget the historicity and we can't not know the story, but we can also push the story over here, as in something that, yeah, happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's disjointed from me, but like in reality, like what God gave to Adam and Eve is what he has always wanted to give to us and what he wants to restore us to. And how God pursued Moses and all the chosen people is how he pursues us. And what God says in Zephaniah that he delights over us, is not just for the person who read Zephaniah back in the day, but it's for me.
Speaker 1:And the more that we can view our lives as this epic, high-end drama, something that, if our world was different, people would want to watch on Netflix and be a part of it. And seeing ourselves in that way on Netflix and be a part of it and seeing ourselves in that way it calls us to a different level of hoorah, yeah, like no need to watch.
Speaker 2:Netflix, like it's happening for me right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and reality becomes, you know, even more real. I love that. So, yeah, I love that piece of it. And then this one I'd love to stay in is the the primacy of mystery in the invisible world.
Speaker 1:You know, we've talked about that, the invisible world being what's really real, like the reality of heaven being the most important thing, the Holy spirit being the one of the most important things that we can be interacting with on a daily basis, and um, and whether or not our day starts with that like determines the way things actually work out in the terms of salvation, history yep, for all of us, and how well we are able to live out that experience. But mystery is also isn't something that's just and make the book makes this point isn't something that's just like unknown to book. Makes this point isn't something that's just like unknown to us. It's something where, like, not all parts can be known, you know. So the Trinity is a mystery, and in the Eastern Church, all of the sacraments, they're not called sacraments, they're called mysteries, which is something that I think that we need to live out more Like it's mysterious.
Speaker 2:The way at baptism. I like that notion of not unknown to us but partly unknown, or I forget how the book says it or how you said it, because, like, and the book does it well, I'll attempt to paraphrase, but it kind of it says that some things are beyond grasp of our minds, and I kind of rewrote it to say life is beyond the grasp of our minds. You know, the Trinity is mysterious. Incarnation is mysterious. Eucharistic presence is mysterious.
Speaker 2:Our human nature, made up of bodies and souls, is mysterious and like, to just let that seep in a little further, like that means your unreconciled suffering is mysterious. The places where life seems to not go your way is mysterious. I know it, like I know my suffering. I know things aren't going my way, but I only know those things in part. I know that this event worked out for my good right here and I had no plan for it to work that way, and I know that in part.
Speaker 2:But God is unfolding a greater mystery in each human person's life that's not disconnected from the mystery of the Eucharist or the mystery of the Trinity or the mystery of the incarnation, but is all together complimentary, like all those mysteries are telling us something together, and so our lived experience is also mysterious, and I think that helps us reconcile with a lot of things as believers might cause us to lose faith, like suffering, for example. Um, I think everyone in this room, and probably most people listening, have a certain set of suffering in their life that's unexplainable and a certain set of providences in their life that are have that we know in part, but like we could probably be shook, shook, shook into our depths of why it is this way, yeah, and so lean into the mystery and wonder the invisible that God's doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you said lean into the mystery, that made me think of that one song, the from the the proud of God episode with um, yeah, yeah. The song was just like fall into the mystery of, just like, like that Maybe. Maybe we should say stand in the ministry, in the in the mystery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think actually I'm glad you mentioned that because stand, you know, we're physically talking about the posture of standing in the battle or whatever, but also, I would guess, like sometimes this mystery in life has this great tension in it and as humans, because of how we were made, god made us to be able to, like, protect ourselves.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we're invited to fight or flight in that tension, or we're invited to avoid, or we're invited to suppress, and so I think there's actually an invitation in our interior, both in the emotional and the spiritual, when we feel the tension in our head. Some of it feels like a weight on the shoulders, others it feels like a great stress, headache. But look at that as the Lord inviting you to lean into the mystery, to stand there amidst that. That tension is in some sense I don't know let it be a reminder that you're entering into something non-human like that's beyond human reach, and so, like staying there, knowledgeable that our God is a God of one who does and will, not a God, a God that can, that God will bring about his glory. In that I think we can emotionally stand and spiritually stand amidst the disorder in our own head.
Speaker 1:yeah, and heart, and the best way to continue to like live out mystery is to like be exposed to them consistently. One of the easiest ways and most common ways that you hear this, this particular sense being awakened as being people today is is through being in adoration.
Speaker 1:Because, you're just confronted with the greatest mystery and spending time within that. So finding ways to elevate that experience for yourself is a really amazing thing, something that you already did earlier. That I think was awesome. For the fifth part is making real what is notional and really.
Speaker 1:This is—it kind of talks about a knowledge of the scriptures in a way that you know a lot of Christians now, or a lot of Catholics now, especially if they've been in college in the last 10 years like have a deep understanding of is the prodigal son, like that has been the cry for the gospel and having an understanding, because it's such a rich story and has so many different ways of being applied to it.
Speaker 1:You can apply the prodigal son just to your very self, whether or not you are the younger son or the older son, or just realizing what the love of the Father is in it. But taking these notional things, especially from the Gospels, and living them and recognizing them consistently in your life and in the Word will give everything a different sense of again, that drama, that intensity, but also like buffet yourself and help. It's almost like an aiding to the bracing and it's almost like an aiding to the bracing within the stand of just being empowered by Scripture and making those things a lot more real to yourself and you mentioned this when you were using the example of the centurion Mm-hmm. You just made that real for us and all of our listeners.
Speaker 2:And so the more and how do we do that?
Speaker 1:We expose ourselves to it and live in it. You know, in our awakening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we expose ourselves to it and then we also don't compartmentalize our life, Like we realize that those scriptures aren't just something I read to make myself feel good or I meditate on on Sunday or in my morning time, but they're scriptures that.
Speaker 2:They are your story, they are my story, they're a truth that Jesus taught. He often taught in stories. Because of that, like things that we could relate to, I'm curious is there a scripture like right now in your life, that or in recent life and I'm actually like praying that, praising God for you bringing up the prodigal son, because it was like illustrating the thing I wrote in the margin of the book Um, but other than that one, is there any scripture that has moved you lately, or any that you want to think of? There's a few rolling through my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why don't you roll through here? I haven't even tried, I haven't really.
Speaker 2:I didn't necessarily think of that. I didn't either, so just came, came up. Sorry, to put you on the spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to make an example the other day, both my sons are memorizing Scripture and school's leading it, and so I'm helping Theo, the five-year-old, memorize his memory verse. Well, they're doing Scripture and kind of like teachings, but the teachings always quote Scripture. So the question he had was what is your only comfort in life? And he knew the first part already, so it was just a joy to hear him say it back to me. He was like oh, I know this and so I don't know that this is scriptural, but it's a truth.
Speaker 2:My only comfort in life is that I'm not my own, and I don't know. That just like struck me to the core when he, when he said it um, I don't have the rest of it memorized, but it's worth just staying there. Like my only comfort in life is that I'm not my own. So if you think about all the for me, what it did when I listened to that is what came kind of before my eyes was all the things that I'm actually uncomfortable about in life at the moment, and the place of which I'm uncomfortable is because I'm fearful of my own losses, like I'm I'm I'm caught up in being my own.
Speaker 1:And making it your own.
Speaker 2:You know.
Speaker 2:So it's like all the things I'm uncomfortable with are because they're challenging how I want it to be, how I want my own life to be, and so it just gave me this deep solace, like it was like this one answer, and the applied thing is that and I'm going to I don't know the rest of the quote but like Jesus, I am Jesus's. Like he has won everything for me, he has won me, and like that's the aim I'm striving after, um, to be one with my loving savior. And, uh, I don't know, that just shook me, because there were like ways life was going that I was worried about and that I wanted to cling to, and and when he said that, I was just like, oh, like it just freed me from needing to worry, cause it just reminded me almost. Like the whole premise of this book is the whole thing of the age, the whole religion of the day is you are your own and you can make your own and whatever you want, go get it. And the answer is we're not our own, we've been claimed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stop that, you know we've been claimed in this life as being arranged actively for your welfare, so that you can be one with me forever. You know, those are the words of God, and so it was like that moment was this thing like the? It was a notional idea that he's memorizing for knowledge alone because he's a five-year-old and like they would just want to seek in knowledge. But for me, as the adult, I was like whoa, whoa, that's a notion I know in my head, but I don't know that. I put it in my heart yet that is real one, the.
Speaker 1:The thing that I've been praying with and uh, and I've had a lot of repetition in, is that one verse that priests are afraid to talk about. Husbands and wives start giving each other's looks whenever they start reading it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go um was the.
Speaker 1:You know, the wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives as christ loved the church like. I've had a lot of opportunities to like grow in my understanding of what that really means, um, in my life and, uh, and what it means, you know, within the context of marriage, and the lord Lord's just been kind of slowly revealing that as real, but more so revealing his love for me, like understanding what my love for my wife is supposed to look like, and if his love is a bajillion times better than my own broken little piece, that it's allowed me to make real the notion of like what christ loving the church really means, um, to an extent, and so I it's been. That would be the thing that's like been more real for me lately, um, and not and not so notional, like yeah, yeah, I love, love my wife.
Speaker 1:I love my wife the way that Christ loved the church. That sounds nice, you know, but like what is it? What does it actually mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Wow, that's beautiful. It's interesting, kind of flippantly like my first response when hearing that scripture and it's common, um, it's common, maybe, um rebuttal in society, you know, because of how we view the world. Is that like, okay, wives, submit to your husbands. Like, isn't that a little archaic, um, or or one-sided, even like, come on, like, but it is like, okay, like there's a piece of me, like I almost rather take the submit, I would rather um 100 and so like, and I'm not saying that some from some spiritual proud place or whatever, but I'm just saying like, hey, husbands, if you've ever held that verse up as a reason for a wife to be obedient, or something like look, look again, yeah, look at your part.
Speaker 1:Time to die yeah, you know you gotta be really humble, so like because of the and frankly like, probably obey and submit, like it's probably a piece of that, even in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, at least the deep humility that's required, oh yeah. And in some sense it almost says that like it's almost kind of like the, the part of the, our Father, where it's like forgive us our trespasses, we forgive those. Like there's this kind of double-edged sword thing going on. Like, in some sense there it's like okay, if you're going to basically say like, be imitators of me, like Paul does, because that's the place in which your wife would need to be obedient, I guess, well then you're also taking on the requirement of yourself to sacrifice everything every last drop. You know, and for me, the hardest part would be my own ego of when I'm right, right, which would be the presupposition of when she must submit. It's like, well, I'm very rarely right in my own way, so I would have to be such a man of God for that verse to apply.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah that that that verse got read um in a mass. It was a reading like maybe a month, two months ago, somewhere in there, and it's just been kind of been consistently coming up in prayer and when it came up mass I like I bawled my eyes out at all of these different things of like you know reality for my family, like what's going on, but also just like, oh my gosh, dude, I am so loved and made that real to me. That's a really that's a really key thing.
Speaker 2:Since this is the chapter where we're talking, or this is the little piece of the chapter we're talking about, I think is it proclaiming the gospel still?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of like a. They're kind of like all pieces.
Speaker 2:Like the scripture. The other reality that I think a lot of us Catholics would have a devotion with is the sacred heart of Jesus, and so I think some of these devotions it's really helpful and just in the spiritual sense, the beautiful thing about how the interior life works and how grace works and how God works is, if we're not experiencing the things we just talked about or we're in a season where it's less, if we're not experiencing the things we just talked about or we're in a season where it's less like, go ahead and pause the recording and ask the Holy Spirit to bring about these nostril realities that you're drawn to, to show them to you in your life today. Jesus, encouraging pause. So on the sacred heart, I felt drawn to that for a numerous amount of reasons and the Lord gave me a gift of a moment that I was weeping naturally for some suffering in my life and I was also struggling to be like the missionary that God wants me to be and like trying my own way at it. And the gift the Lord gave me is on the heels of kind of some natural mourning. He gave me the gaze that his heart has towards sin and this has helped me be able to be so much more merciful and and come from a better place.
Speaker 2:Because, like first, he showed me my own sins, the current ones and the old ones, and showed me how sad he was. Like showed me like that his heart is like this like James, I have what you need to overcome that. And what saddens me most it's not that, like, my rule said not to do that, but what saddens me most is like you're not letting me help you. Like I'm seeing this, I saw this on the cross and I have. I have it for. Like I don't want you in pain this way anymore. Like can you stop inflicting the pain and just come to me? Yeah, like I've taken this on, I'm trying to take it on, but I can't take. I can't force you to take it on.
Speaker 2:Like I need you to come, and then what happened after that is like all those things that I might complain about in the world, the sin in the world around me, the pointing at others that it's wrong. He gave me the same posture, you know, one of just a deep sadness, um, and and a deep love, cause that's what mercy is, it's truth, and like perfect compassion and perfect love.
Speaker 1:And it's that truth, perfect compassion and perfect love amidst that truth, and that's how his heart looks at the sins and he's already won, but we have to join him and wrapping all of those things that we've just talked about together, the context in which we do all of this well is friendship with Christ, which we're describing deep moments of friendship where the Lord's revealing key truths to us and to our hearts, and that's what friends do.
Speaker 1:But there's sharing joy, sharing sorrow, sharing suffering. All of those things are a key piece into that and it's just, it's just so often a really Protestant notion, this idea of friendship with Christ, um, and and it really doesn't need to be like we can, um, we can do that, and he cares and he wants to be in that place and in a way, we, in a way we know that and all the mysteries are set up to like, expose us to that and help us and strengthen us and give us the grace we need to go for that. But if we're not just so much more of this has become so much more esoteric and so much more unattainable and a nicety, unless it's in the context of relationship with Christ.
Speaker 2:And relationship with the rest of the vine too. Yeah well, that's Christ, he is the vine, that's right. It's interesting, the book talks about both here like a true friendship in Christ, like with Christ, but also a true friendship in Christ with the other stones of the temple, the other branches on the vine. And I just think today, in today's age, with social media, with our suburban living, with how we work, the world's really trying and I'm sure the flesh and the devil are trying too to isolate us into this place where he knows he can have victory or at least gain ground, to be away from the rest of the vine and this personal isolation. And, um, do we have time for like a little story or a little analogy that's been shared on here? Of course, okay, um, I think sometimes it's hard to like practicalize. Okay, Well, I get this. But like, how do I be a better friend or how do I proclaim the gospel without losing the friendship?
Speaker 2:And I don't know if you guys remember, and I don't know how long ago, but Father Anthony of the Poor Friars came on. Remember that. Do you remember the mysteries, meditation? He led us through the Annunciation, the Visitation. It was not planned at all and he might've not even shared it on the air. I'm not sure it was not planned at all. And he might've not even shared it on the air, I'm not sure. It might've been just something he taught us. But his community praise the um. Over lunch they meditate on a mystery of the rosary. And uh. So he was like if you want to know how to evangelize, we just need to look to Mary. He's like. So we're going to look at the annunciation visitation which we just pondered on, and I just think this is super practical. But it also teaches that making real what's notional thing. So those two mysteries went like this the word of God was put into Mary and her womb and her heart announced at the lips of an angel. So Jesus was placed there.
Speaker 2:Mary's first response in the annunciation was to ponder it, to kind of hold it in her heart, and she had some humility about it, like it didn't quite make sense, didn't it feel right? There were some things in why it wouldn't make sense, maybe some risks, and she held it there. And then he revealed another thing. He revealed that hey, it's evidence that God can do anything. We're going to. God's going to let Elizabeth have a baby. She's pregnant right now. And so Mary is filled with love and goes to visit her cousin. Here we have the visitation also called a sign of confirmation. And so at the visitation, mary hasn't at least that we know in scripture told anyone about this greatness that God's put on her heart, but she's been holding it there. She gets there and John the Baptist leaps in her womb and Elizabeth says to like something to the effect of like to what do I owe that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So Elizabeth just acknowledged something that Mary had received that she didn't know anyone else knew, something that Mary had received that she didn't know anyone else knew. So Elizabeth's confirmation when Mary visited her gave Mary the freedom to proclaim the Magnificat my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord and she talks about her Savior without restraint. And so in this interchange we see a little bit of a formula. One kind of unspoken is the work of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit has put Jesus in the womb. The Holy Spirit arranged things for Elizabeth.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we have an announcement of the word of God in our heart to pray for a person, to talk to a person, to say something about a person, to see their pain, their suffering. So we're to kind of hold that there and then usually something from the Spirit or something the other person says is some visitation, something that kind of confirms it, and then we can let it out. So we have to pray that the Holy Spirit is going to let us hear and see the unseen things and be attuned, and then we can let it out. So we have to pray that the Holy Spirit is going to let us hear and see the unseen things and be attuned, and then we have to limit our ability to limit our restraint, and go ahead and let it out At a very practical way, like Father Anthony taught us.
Speaker 2:Like they hitchhike everywhere because they're poor, if there was, like, a cross hanging by the mirror, that was an announcement that person made about their life, and so we might not be hitchhiking, but the hairdresser might be wearing a cross, like. Maybe she put it on today, thinking Jesus is my Lord and savior and there's going to be such a dynamic conversation. Maybe she put it on because her grandma gave it to her when she died. Either way, there's great soil there. She had the conviction enough to put it on.
Speaker 1:And that's fertile ground to have a conversation.
Speaker 2:So the announcements there, right? Yeah, um. So sometimes, though and so you're, you go visit. Sometimes though we're we need to give the announcements, and so the announcement might be Jay's asking me how my day is, and instead of me saying good, I say I'm so grateful, like it is clear that my day is blessed. Okay, I made announcement. Jay's let's say he's a real estate guy doing a deal with me could just be like, oh man, that's awesome. Okay, we need to counter with All right, that guy didn't visit me. Keep holding it in my heart, let's come back to it, keep praying for him, whatever. But what if he said, really, why, hey, he just visited that, yeah, he just visited that. And so I have some permission to lean in a little further. Yeah, it's like a curiosity thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm looking for that. Yeah, that's beautiful, and everything that you're saying kind of ties towards the end and the conclusion of the book, of just this epic call, and I kind of want to just read this last paragraph to kind of end it. This is our time. This is the day that the Lord has made. This is the age for which we were chosen. This is a time of God's energetic action as he continues to deal with the world and with each of us in love and mercy. Let us, then, take hold with both hands of the life and the time God has given us, in all their light and shadow, with genuine faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and go be saints, and that's what we're doing, that's what we're attempting to do, being James and everybody. But I hope you've enjoyed Book Club. We'll be back with something different next time around, but this has been Red Dead Catholics. I'm Jace, I'm James, and we'll see you next time around. This has been Red Dead Catholics. I'm Jace, I'm James, we'll see you next time.