Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Heart of a Vagabond
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James is joined by Joe Cipriano to talk about Joe's journey to faith and his work with the group "Vagabond Missions."
You can learn more about Vagabond Missions at https://vagabondmissions.com/.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
So today at least, when we're recording, maybe not when everyone watches this, but we're celebrating St Valentine's Day, Anything. Did you guys do anything special for the family or have anything special planned for the kids?
Speaker 1:Well, we, you know it was good we started doing a regular date night a couple months ago was kind of our goal and you know so, as parents, regular date night turns into, you know, shopping for the kids the next day. So we're out with all the other crazy parents at 10 o'clock at night looking for Valentines for all their classrooms. And it was pretty amazing, Like we had to go to a couple different stores and we got to Walmart and the entire like first row of stuff was completely empty. So, um, and we ran into, like other parents from the school and things like that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so so very romantic.
Speaker 2:That is super romantic I was. I was talking to another family that was doing the date night which we've since having the baby and our regular babysitter going off to a kind of gap year thing in austria, we've been less frequent about getting outside the home but still try to have a couple of regular night. But uh, we were talking with another family like yeah, isn't it funny that we always find ourselves in a large store at date night, um, which, like emily and I would usually do like a proper date, but it was pretty frequent. We'd be like at the grocery store or whatever, cause it was just peaceful, we don't have everyone hanging on us and the two of us can talk and do a normal thing like shopping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was kind of funny. We definitely feel like the old people. A lot of times we'll like just go to one of the malls and walk around cause it's cold and we're like we don't want to just sit and eat, but we also, you know, uh also want to move, so we're like the nighttime mall walkers.
Speaker 2:So can I catch you at North park mall walking around near your neighborhood?
Speaker 1:You can definitely catch me at North park mall, but they close earlier so you have to pop up to coil Springs or something.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, there you go for that. That's funny. Did they, did the kids? Did you wake them up early to prep their Valentines, or just pack their bags. No, my wife just wrote all the names again during our date night um on the little Valentine's things, nice, nice.
Speaker 2:But uh, our, our kids, they were celebrating for whatever reason on Wednesday, which school got canceled for them, and uh, so they made all these Valentines. I was kind of I was kind of proud of them and my wife. We've tried to stop eating things that are processed foods. We've kind of become that crunchy family doing that. And so Emily was thinking like well, I'm going to try and encourage them to bring their candy home and trade it in for baseball cards or quarters or something.
Speaker 2:So I can't really send them with candy. So I was kind of proud of them. The kids Grayson made all these zinnia seed bags for the girls because we like grow our own zinnia flowers and so they thrash those and then uh, and then for the boys like a baseball or football card you know, so it's like ended up being kind of a fun special thing.
Speaker 2:So I'm excited for them to do that. But this morning try to keep emily in bed and I'm hopefully gonna get off early and do some quality time with her. That's her love language. But I had the kids uh making her a little Valentine this morning, so that was a fun activity.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, this is kind of like a good date season for us, cause we do our anniversary is, uh, you know, like the week before, so it's kind of good, yeah, so we're on the 6th of February, so it's kind of good. Yeah, so we're, we're on the 6th of February, so it's kind of this whole week you feel like, all right, we're getting extra date time or buying extra presents and things like that. It's. It's a fun, fun little season.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, very cool. Yeah, that's neat. Well, hope, hope you guys had a good time with Valentine's day listeners and as well. But, uh, I guess we might see you next year at 10 o'clock at Walmart. So some of you might recognize Joe's voice or his face if you're watching on YouTube.
Speaker 2:But Joe Sipriano is here with us today, worked at the diocese for a while. That might be why you recognize him. But today he's working with Vagabond Missions. Yeah, vagabond's working with Vagabond. Um, what is it? Vagabond Missions, vagabond Missions, vagabond Missions, okay, and um, here, kind of leading the charge in Oklahoma City for them, and we'll hear a little bit more about that and and some of Joe's story, um, as a disciple, as a someone coming to find Christ, um, and as a missionary. So I'm really excited to have a dear friend on the podcast to share him with y'all or to dive a little deeper if you already know him.
Speaker 2:So first I'll lead us in a quick prayer and then we'll get started. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the love you have for us. We thank you for the mercy you offer us in your Son, jesus. We thank you for the inspiration of your Holy Spirit. Today, as we are here with Joe, we ask that you give us an increased heart for your mission the mission you gave us and let us learn what it means to be a missionary disciple and help deepen our encounter with you. In your name, we pray Amen.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Father, son, holy Spirit, amen, all righty. So, joe, I mean I'm just curious. Some people know you, some don't. I mean, take me to the beginning. Like you know who is Joe Cipriano and where'd you come from and how'd you get here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome. Well, I'll tell you maybe the quick version and then we can do maybe a longer version. But I, yeah, I grew up in upstate New York, schenectady it's right near Albany, new York and went to Franciscan University for college and studied theology and catechetics there and then went on and did youth ministry in a few different places. So I was a youth minister in Lexington, kentucky, and then down in Corpus Christi, texas, which is where I met my wife, nancy, and we've been married now for eight years and so we have four kids, with one on the way Right. When's the one on the way due? July, Okay, cool. So, which is really cool, we just, uh, they're all little, you know. So our oldest is five, we have twins that are three and then a one and a half year old, and and then the baby coming. So, um, came at, came at me pretty quick. We moved here, uh, just six years ago and weren't pregnant, didn't have any kids, and in such a quick time. We're a family, like a family of seven, you know, and who knew it would go like that? But yeah, just, we've loved living in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1:You know, I moved here, originally worked at the Archdiocese. I was the director of youth and young adult ministry and, yeah, I've just loved it here. One love the church, love our bishop and the staff here and really enjoyed being a part of that, but enjoy being a part of the wider Catholic culture here in the city. And we're also I mean, even just in a practical sense love the city, just having a small family and being able to do things like go down to Scissor Trail Park or the botanical gardens or the river walk. It's like all these little things that the city just has just to have and just to make it a nice place. Or, you know, go run by, you know Lake Hefner, you know it's just all these nice things that the city does. And so we've loved raising our family here and, um, you know, it's cool, my wife being from Texas and me from New York, it's not really what we expected to live in Oklahoma, but it's become, become our home and, yeah, we've we've loved it here.
Speaker 2:It's been, it's been great. Well, it's interesting from top to bottom. The whole, the whole trajectory doesn't seem exactly ordinary. You know New York, did you say been?
Speaker 1:Franciscan Ohio. Yeah, franciscan University Ohio.
Speaker 2:New York Franciscan East Coast back this way. I'm excited to unpack that and hear a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's been a journey.
Speaker 2:So take me into the earlier days. So what was it like growing up in New York? Yeah, take us before. You probably chose to go to Franciscan. But what was it like growing up in New York? What was your affiliation with the church, or with Christ, or you know? Illustrate that for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, yeah, no thanks for asking. You know it's. It's pretty amazing Like God has kind of worked miracles in my life. Really, from the beginning and you kid, my mom was really involved with the church and she would go to mass as much as she could. She'd pray a lot and church was kind of her thing.
Speaker 1:But for me as a kid I always just kind of thought it was like I don't know, it was an old ladies thing and I just didn't really care for it. I remember I would go to, my mom, would force me to go to church every Sunday and I would like leave and and go for a walk and then come back and uh, you know, when I was old enough, receive communion and then go home, and so I literally like wouldn't even be in the church and so it didn't have a strong relationship with God. I I, you know, thought he existed. I just didn't really think it mattered. You know, I kind of just thought, you know, it's the way it was, you know, and you know I would hear things like God loves you, and I just kind of thought like, oh, it's a cute bumper sticker or it's, you know, like, you know they make you color it in RE class where you're like, you know, shading a rainbow, god loves you, and you're like okay, now I know more about God, you know, like it.
Speaker 1:Just I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just didn't have a real relationship with him, you know, and as I started to get a little bit older, I started to get in a lot of trouble and I was just a really angry kid, to be honest, and I got involved with a group of kids that became really good friends, but we just did really bad things together and we'd get in lots of fights and I just didn't do a good job of following any kind of instruction or rule.
Speaker 1:And so I eventually got kicked out of high school and it was in uh for the beginning of my life. And it was during that time that I randomly got invited, uh to go to this youth group, um, but I didn't know what it was. You know. I got a phone call, um, and the only reason I was even cause this is back in the day when you had to be home to get a phone call the only reason I was even home is cause I'd stayed out all night the night before and gotten in trouble and didn't uh and really was just tired, so I was just home it is early high school like yeah, I was like 14 years old yeah out of curiosity, before you get to, maybe this good turning point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you said, you got started to get into a lot of trouble. Like, was that like pre-teen to early high school, middle school?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'd say, maybe seventh grade starting More and more, you know, we'd just, you know at the time, just smoke weed and get in fights and just kind of, yeah, we'd rob people and we just got involved with violence and gangs and things like that. And it was just, you know, it seemed normal at the time. But you look back and you're like, oh, that was kind of crazy for a 14 year old to live in that kind of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting Questions of gang activity, like were you formally in a gang.
Speaker 1:No, I wasn't like in a gang officially.
Speaker 2:But were there other people that you ran with that might've been.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, like older, like my friends, older brothers and sisters were in gangs and like we thought we were a gang but we really weren't you know, like we were.
Speaker 2:Just You're close enough to it. You're close to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we had we were around real violence and real like people that were really living it and like even when I kind of look back at my own life and like at the time I thought I was tough and I thought like and I thought I had it hard. But I look at what my friends actually had. You know where they had. You know parents that were drug dealers and you know parents and you know who were in prison for murder and just like you know they and I was like choosing to put myself in that. But like I had I had you know parents. You know my mom at home and my dad, you know, at his home. You know at least interested in me, or at least you know like I had a steady place to live. You know like I made a lot of bad decisions and they didn't know quite how to handle me, but a lot of my friends just didn't really even have a choice. You know like they were.
Speaker 2:You know growing up in it from when they were little. What do you think drew you in? Have you ever reflected on that With them? Yeah, I think just friendship. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, like I think, um, I think when I was really little, I, you know, I I went to a small school when I was a kid and I think it's one of those things where you, if you don't get along with the kids in your class when you're in second grade and those are the same kids that are third, fourth, fifth and sixth like you start to get isolated and lonely and um, and I think when I got old enough to kind of get out of the house and just be in the neighborhood, I just found friends Right and just um, and and I think at that time, like you want to be the toughest, you want to be like you want to have a good reputation, and just um, and and I think at that time, like you want to be the toughest, you want to be like you want to have a good reputation, and so you know, so you kind of fight for your reputation and so that kind of means you do whatever, whatever you can, you fight whoever will fight you and you try to look for um I don't look for opportunities to impress and um, and try to earn, earn it in that way, you know or or your reputation or in your friends.
Speaker 2:Wow, Well, thanks for the backstory on that and being vulnerable. So you have a few years of these kinds of friendships and then you're 14 and you get. You're out too late at night and you get a phone call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I get a phone call, uh, from one of my friends and he said hey, we're hanging out in this alley, you know, behind the school. Do you want to? You want to come hang out? And I was like, oh yeah what, you know what school? And he said St Paul's. And I was like hanging out behind St Paul's? That's weird.
Speaker 1:But it was only maybe a mile from my house and so I was like okay, you know and so, and and I show up in the alley and there's nobody in the alley and I'm like, oh crap, like what's going on and and I assume that they were just drinking or smoking or something back there. And um, and I walk around the corner and in the parking lot of the church um was this old convent and there were like a hundred kids on like a porch and poured out into the parking lot and I so I walk over and I see my friend. I was like, what are you doing here? You're like, why are you at this thing?
Speaker 1:You know, and and it's funny, because he like literally hands me a can of soda and he goes joe, this is free. And I was kind of like, so you know, like, who like, who cares, like, and he's like, and there's food inside. And I was like, okay, who's who like, really, who cares? And he's like, he's like, and check out all the girls here. And I was like, oh, he's like, and there's food inside.
Speaker 2:And I was like okay, who's like really who cares?
Speaker 1:And he's like he's like and check out all the girls here. And I was like, oh, I get it now, you know. And so I started showing up at this church thing, but I wouldn't actually go to the event that they were hosting. I would show up afterwards, talk to the girls, eat the food, and like, that was my, you know, that was my relationship with the church, you know. And um, and so I, as time went on, I started bringing all of my friends to this activity and so, um, and we would show up, we'd be drunk or high or you know like just uh, we'd get in fights, the police would get called.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was really kind of a dramatic time. It was actually kind of a funny side story. I guess not funny, but funny side story. Like there was one time where we had, like a group of my friends got jumped in the parking lot and so there was literally like At St Paul's. Yeah, at St Paul's there were probably 60 or 70 people fighting in the parking lot of the church. But the funny part was the pastor was the like the chaplain for the police department and they were having like a prayer meeting with the police in the basement of the church.
Speaker 1:So like totally providential, you know, like midway into this fight a bunch of police officers pour out from the basement of the church and help break it up. But, needless to say, the volunteers that were at this church were really upset with us in general and they kind of saw me as the root of the problem, because I was bringing all my friends and we were the ones that were causing all this trouble. And um, they show up at the youth minister's house. And so there was this youth minister that had moved to town, he had graduated from Steubenville and he had started doing youth ministry there. And um, and it was, he really just thought he was doing normal church things, you know, like a normal church youth ministry. But I think me and my friends had kind of created this dynamic that was different than what he was expecting.
Speaker 1:And so these volunteers show up at his house one night and they basically had gone out to dinner and decided we're not helping out at church anymore unless they tell Joe he can't come anymore.
Speaker 1:Not helping out at church anymore unless they tell Joe he can't come anymore. And so they kind of ambushed him where they just show up at his door Cause again. This is back in the day where you just knocked on people's doors and they answered you know, um, and they just told him you know, we're, we're going to quit if you don't tell Joe he needs to stay away and he says fine, I gladly accept your resignation Because if we give up on one of these kids, we're not doing God's work. And that night for him was kind of a cool turning point because about half the volunteers stopped helping that night but the half that stayed, kind of rededicated towards, especially like me and my friends, where they were um, starting to really pursue us and um and kind of take on the task of like this is why we're here. We're here to serve these kids that obviously need it. Um, do you do?
Speaker 2:you think I mean obviously some of that you know in retrospect, cause it's not like this youth minister is telling you live per se. But do you think, after kind of watching all that, do you think the, the volunteers who were helping the youth minister, like you think there began to be a a change in their mind of, okay, these unruly kids are the problem, or a problem to know like they're the prize or or a great opportunity for the Lord.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, and I mean the only reason I heard this story, I think, is because, you know, a couple of years later they were celebrating it, you know, and and you know we had, just a couple months after that incident, right when they, you know, a bunch of the volunteers had left, uh, they had a retreat, okay, and, and it's funny, I remember like the youth minister had uh invited me to the retreat, uh, his name's Bob Lesnefsky, and, uh, he, uh, and, and I, I quickly told him, like he's like, joe, you're going to, you're going to come on the retreat this year. I was like, no, that's okay. He's like, well, do you know, guess it's a bunch of people talking about Jesus for hours on end, singing Kumbaya, and like that's, you know, like, is that pretty much it? And he's like, no, no, joe, check this out. We're going to stay in a hotel on the beach and we're going to have a basketball tournament and you know what, you can go for free and you can bring whoever you want. And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, go for free, bring whoever you want. Like I'm going to bring my girlfriend, I'm going to bring, like, all of my friends, this, this guy's not going to be able to tell us what to do. We're going to be able to do whatever we want. So it's like a free trip to the beach is what I thought, you know.
Speaker 1:And um, and so we showed up the day of the retreat with about a dozen of my best friends. None of us had actually signed up for the retreat, but they figured out how to get us on the bus and only me and one other guy were Catholic, but most of them weren't going to any church, but a few of them were Muslim, some of them were Christian, but it was just a completely unchurched group of people. And we show up on the street and there was. We did get in trouble, we did, you know, like drugs on the retreat. We did get in fight on retreat, but, um, but throughout all of that, you know, we started to hear them talk about Jesus in a different way and you know, I had kind of that background of like Jesus loving you, being like a bumper sticker and you know, throughout the time they're just talking about God's love in a different way and how it's personal and how Jesus died on the cross for you and that he chose you and that he loved you.
Speaker 1:And there came to a point in the retreat where they were getting ready for adoration, and so it was like Saturday night of the retreat and, um, it was kind of what you expect. They like dim the lights and there's people like playing like slow music in the background and me and my friends are in the very back of the room and I turned to my best friend, calvin, and I just go, I go dude, like let's get out of here. You know, because what was going on, you know. And so we left and we went out to the front porch of this building and we're smoking a cigarette, talking, and he's he starts just talking about friendship. And you know, he's my best friend, we spent every minute together and and he just starts sharing about friendship and family and like, all of a sudden, like he starts crying and as like a 14 year old guy that my whole life, I think, is based off of, like my appearance of being tough.
Speaker 2:Being tough, being hard yeah, crying would not have been acceptable, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:I'd never seen a guy cry before, right, you know. And and I remember thinking like in the moment, kind of like holy crap, what do I do, you know, because like he's my best friend and like I'm not gonna like make fun of him in the moment, you know, so I just listened and like a few minutes go by and like I start crying and we're just sitting on this porch outside, you know, two guys. You know that. You know, really we weren't headed anywhere, right, you know, like our life was kind of headed in a in a bad direction and, um, while we were outside, they had brought Jesus in the room for adoration and we had no idea this was happening. We had no idea even really what adoration was. And then, you know, we kind of catch ourselves, realize, okay, we're guys and we're crying, like we, you know, like don't really say anything, we just kind of wipe the tears off, we go back inside and luckily it's a little bit dark and we just sit down. I sit maybe a row away from my friends or just, you know, a little bit removed. And you know, second goes by and like I'm bawling my eyes out, you know, in adoration, and it felt like forever, it felt like for hours. And you know, at a certain point I remember just like like kind of coming to my senses a little bit and going, holy crap, like I'm ruined, like my whole life is ruined, like my. I'm never going to live this down. And I could, when I could finally work up the courage to turn around and see my friends. They're arm and arm in tears. You know all these kids that had this, you know they were tough and they had these reputations and they had this past and these difficulties. And every single one of them you just encountered the Lord in such a powerful way. And I remember Bob came over to me at some point during that time of prayer and he just kind of whispered in my ear like Joe, I just I've been praying for you and I just feel like God has such a good plan for your life.
Speaker 1:And we come out of that retreat and you talk about spiritual highs, like the joy and the freedom of feeling loved, for all these kids that just didn't feel loved and didn't think that they were capable of being loved or that they deserved love. And you know they, we, we thought we had to do all these things Um, and you know a lot of those guys. Like you know they're they're still lifelong friends, you know, and even though I live in different, a different state, like they still have my heart. You know we've kept in touch different times throughout the years and, um, you know, we we left that place and, like you know, my life was changed completely and it the crazy thing is, and the thing about conversion that's that's really interesting is like it's not like we stopped doing bad stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like I had been arrested since then, like we jumped people after that, we still got in fights, like we still were like doing drugs, like we were still doing all the bad stuff. But there was this seed where we were so hungry for the good stuff and so we would be at the church for every single thing we could be. You know we were there probably three, four nights a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the process of encounter and repentance wasn't completely instant, free. There was still a time of undoing and converting still.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I mean, it was we really. And at the time, you know like it sounds silly that people think that they can kind of have a foot in both water. We're, like, you know, like, and I think we judge people as like hypocrites, right, because we see them like, oh, on Sunday they look so holy, but then during their life they act like this. But it's so easy to do that. Yeah, because, like, I think I knew that Jesus loved me, but I didn't know that it required a change in me aside from just loving them back. And you know it really took, you know it took a long process of, of change and conversion and, um, I want to, yeah, I want to unpack that process a little bit I also.
Speaker 2:I mean, I held back the tears a little bit, but my eyes started getting teary at the adoration moment, because I've certainly felt that in adoration and know people who've had conversions like this. I'm curious, you know what do you, either from your own introspection or, you know, talking with the friends across life, like what all was going on in in the, in the adoration chapel, like in your heart and in your mind, like obviously you saw life come before your eyes, of kind of where you were, but like do you think at that time you knew you were having an encounter with Christ? Like while you're sitting there, it kind of if you could like pause us there in that moment where before and after you look back and saw all your friends crying, like what were the sorts of things going on in the heart and mind there? Like what was the experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think, I really think part of it is the gospel. Is you know hearing the gospel proclaimed in a way that you can hear it Like there's just objective power in the gospel? Is you know hearing the gospel proclaimed in a way that you can hear it Like there's just objective power in the gospel? You know, and there's obviously, there's objective reality that Jesus is present in the room and he's going to do what he's going to do. There's the reality that there are people praying for us and interceding for us. And there was a lot going on, you know, behind the scenes, but I think in the specific moment, I really think it was a focus on the cross. You know like hearing about Jesus dying on the cross and then being left with some time to deal with it. You know, like cause.
Speaker 1:I think one of the biggest things that I think everybody can fall victim to is distraction. You just do stuff so you don't have to think about it, but to hear that God loves you and he died on the cross for you and then to have a chance to deal with it is just powerful and and to have and that's a lot of times what retreats do is they. You're retreating from any obstruction, any distraction, anything that would stop you from having an opportunity to hear what God's been trying to tell you anyway, and so, yeah, so I mean I think like practically in that room it was. You know they're playing music in the background, the lights are dim. Jesus is there there, you know, but, um, but god was doing something different yeah, you know, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:I love what you said about the chance to the chance to kind of address that or answer that or respond to the truth of the gospel, because your point, like we could hear it, or we could hear it in re, or we could have this small moment, but to have the time set aside where there's silence and it's safe to respond, um, that's beautiful and I think we're. The thing we're championing is like there's all of that. There was the adoration, there was the intercessory prayer, there was the conviction of the volunteers and of bob to like, hey, they didn't even sign up. We're probably breaking all sorts of rules. Yeah, we're getting up here, but like I, I would think what's powerful about that story is your friend crying outside the adoration chapel like y'all, like on its own face, of like logic you were all about to avoid, like almost a spiritual exercise that work right, so something holy is about to happen.
Speaker 2:You're kind of convicted, you're like let's get out of here, yeah, and so like you were about to avoid the best moment of the retreat, like what it's all about. But I feel like the power of the intercessory prayer and what's interesting, even though your friendship was disordered the power of your friendship. You know the Lord worked to.
Speaker 2:I would bet the volunteers and Bob were praying for all of y'all you know, at that moment, and Jesus comes out, but like the power of Christ to come out, like you weren't even in the moment to receive it, and then you got the Lord broke both of you there and pulled you back in. I mean, it's such a beautiful testimony really, the power of Christ to transform hearts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny how you think you gotta be in the room Like that. That would limit God, right? You know that he can't come out and find you on the porch, you know, um, but it's, yeah, it is, and you know it's interesting, like, and this. This has been as convicting and it's challenging for me as anything is, like the idea of intercessory prayer. Um, there was this guy, his name's steve.
Speaker 1:That um was in a prayer group with my mom and he had this really tough life. His mom died when he was a kid and his dad gave him up, and so he was raised in a foster home. And when I was going through all the stuff that I was going through and my mom was desperate, through all the stuff that I was going through and my mom was desperate, um, he heard about what was going on with me and he made it, uh, like a mission to pray for me every day. It's like there's this work that was happening in my life. Every little thing that led me to that moment, every little thing that led me to that moment, wasn't accidental, it wasn't happenstance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. It was a work of the holy spirit and an intercessory prayer and, like, as much as like credit goes to the people that were like running the events and were patient with us. You know, there's those people behind the scenes that are interceding for it that, like some people just don't have. They just don't have people to pray for them, and like I think that's what makes me different than a lot of the people I grew up with is I had at least one person that was interceding for me and praying for me every day, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's beautiful to kind of think about that reality is you have this man.
Speaker 2:You say steve yeah yeah, so you have steve, who think, functionally, grew up as an orphan, right, yep, and so like the reality that we all have post-fall of being a bit orphaned. Orphaned, like you know, adam and Eve went to kind of claim things on their own and, instead of living out their identity as son and daughter of God, you have this man who's orphaned and, you know, praying for us, for a boy, a young man who hasn't experienced his spiritual adoption, you know, is I just feel like, from that place of brokenness and him seeing your broken life, there had to have been this, this, I don't know, great understanding at a spiritual level of like, what you might be going through you know and clearly to pray that way.
Speaker 2:He's had a conversion. But that's beautiful to hear the intercessory prayer and honestly hearing about it in part like obviously Bob modeled mission for you. The other people around you have this intercessory prayer, like it kind of explains where you are today in some respect.
Speaker 2:Like it explains the conversion, but it kind of explains, you know, the ongoing fruitfulness and pursuit of the Lord to some degree. Well, thanks for diving backwards a little bit for me. Yeah, yeah, thanks for letting me do it. But you were talking about, like conversion being kind of a process after.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So coming out of that retreat, like again there's kind of this old and again I've been doing youth ministry for so long that it's old to me but maybe new to other people Like, uh, there's this old demonstration that they used to talk about. Right, when they're teaching people to like, avoid sin, where they would take a glass and they would go, how do you get air out of this glass?
Speaker 1:And people start thinking oh, you get like a vacuum and you like suck the air out, but it's like if you do something like that, it implodes, right, but it's like you actually just fill it with something else you know and they pour like a glass of water in it and you're like, oh okay, you know, like, but I think that's what happened in my life is like they're slowly started to fill it with good things, that it started to become really clear that they weren't compatible with the bad things in my life. And it's kind of crazy. We had you know, this is maybe nine months after my initial conversion and you know we'd been, so we'd been going to church now and like at least a few times a week, you know, for nine months. And they get us on this like leadership retreat or a couple of us right On this, uh, leadership team. Uh, me and my friend Donnie went out to Ohio, you know, and never been out of my state or anything like that, and uh, it's like it's called it now they call it Franciscan lead, but at the time it was called young apostles, it was this, it was attached to the student vote conferences and they basically what they do is they get one or two leaders from all of the youth groups to come together and they do like extra leadership formation for a week, and and, uh, bob was involved with that, so he got a couple of us in to this thing and so, um, so you know, I guess it was maybe a night or two before I was supposed to leave for this retreat I, a couple of groups of friends had shown up at my house, and they were two groups of friends that normally didn't associate, and I think they were trying to be tough we're all trying to be tough in front of each other, but somehow we made the decision to go out and like rob people because we were, I think, just we're we're looking for, uh, for weed, and nobody had anything, nobody had any money.
Speaker 1:So we, like you, started driving around town, like loaded up in this big, like station wagon that my friend had, and you're probably 12, it was in the back of the station wagon and we would find people and like pull ahead of them and like beat them up and take whatever they had. And while we're doing this, at one point my friend, you know, grabbed a kid on a bike and told him you know what, if I told you to take everything you have out of your pockets and throw it on the ground. What would you do? And the kid said, no man, I'm not doing it. He said well, what if I told you to throw everything on the ground? What would you do? And the kid said, no man, I'm not doing it. He said well, what if I told you to throw everything on the ground? What would you do? He said I'm not doing it. And and my friend pulled the gun out and uh, and the kid took what he had and he threw it on the ground and he was like 12 bucks Right.
Speaker 1:And we, uh, we go around the corner and there's cop cars coming from every angle. Um and uh, you know, I remember the night being a punk and talking crap to the police officers after I'm getting arrested and they have their guns pointed out at us and we're in the back of this cop car and, um, you know, and so we, we spend the night in jail and the detective comes in to talk to me and I'm cussing him out cause he's asking me who has a gun and I'm not going to tell him. And you know, um, and he says, well, think about this. Like it doesn't matter if you're a minor, like what you just did was a felony, whether you had the gun or not, and you can be charged as an adult. And I forget what he said it could be 15 to 20 years.
Speaker 1:And they put me in a cell by myself. And at this point I'm sitting in the cell and it's maybe four or five o'clock in the morning and I was like holy crap, what did I just do? And I remember being in the cell and just like starting to pray and going like God, how did I get myself in this situation and like I was just starting to do good things. And I remember saying to Jesus like God, if you just get me out of this, like I'll really do it, like I'll really like turn my life around, like I'll really like turn my life around, like I 'll actually stop doing all the crap that I'm doing and actually follow you.
Speaker 1:And um, the detective comes and unlocks the door and says you're free to go. You know, not knowing what I'm saying in my head, right, you know, and not giving an explanation, and like I I had friend, I had my, my friend that had the gun. He like he did time for that. You know, like he and and his life was completely different. Um, and 48 hours later, I'm in Ohio rooming with Scott Hahn's son on a leadership retreat.
Speaker 1:You know who ended up being a lifelong friend his son Gabe. But, and you know, I'm on this retreat knowing I'm not worthy.
Speaker 1:Not that I knew who Scott Hahn was at the time, obviously, but, like you know, these kids that just had this great formation and were actual leaders, you know, and um, and, and I think it was coming off of that retreat that I actually was, I was sold out, you know I was, you know I would stop doing drugs, stop fighting.
Speaker 1:Like the amount of fights that I broke up over the next couple of years, like it became kind of my mission. It was like, um, me and my friend Calvin would always joke because like I would literally, and my friend Calvin would always joke because like I would literally pick him up and carry him away from fights and just walk away. Um, but uh, it was just, but I mean really it was. It was amazing Cause at that point I was really trying to, I was really trying to live it and like was praying every day, like I'd get together with people and we would just go for walks and pray rosaries together and we, you know like walk to the church and just sit outside the church and pray outside if it was locked and just yeah, so I get this at the retreat, like your cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 2:The leadership retreat, it's super high. Right Like here a little bit ago I was in a jail cell and right before that we were, you know, threatening to kill people for for some money. Now I'm here and obviously you had that conversation with god and the answer right after was you're free to go. Yeah, um, the question I have is you've certainly felt the cognitive dissonance of feeling not worthy. Did the lord show you anything different?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a great. That's a great question. It's actually interesting. Again, this is kind of funny, as my friend Gabe, who I was saying I roomed with, I remember the first night of adoration or whatever, or the first night of prayer that I was on this leadership retreat, I kind of was bawling my eyes out and crying because that's how I knew how to relate to God. And I remember him telling me afterwards like you know, you don't have to cry, like during adoration, and I remember thinking like one, like what an obnoxious thing to say, like you just don't love Jesus enough, or like you know to not like you know like be emotional in prayer, you just don't love Jesus enough.
Speaker 1:Or like you know to not like. You know like be emotional in prayer, but like the next time that I went into prayer I just couldn't do it. You know, like I just was shut off to it for some reason.
Speaker 1:You know like couldn't like cry or couldn't be emotional and I think it was in like in the midst of that moment that I think there was kind of a deepening in prayer, not that um that, I think there was kind of a deepening in prayer, not that I mean there's still times I'll cry in adoration or cry in general, right, you know, but like um.
Speaker 1:But I think there was like this move from just like the emotional relationship with God to like uh, uh, I don't know a um, also kind of like an intellectual relationship, you know, like where, um, yeah, where I could go in and just have a conversation with the Lord and in a different way and hear him and um and it. The other thing that's crazy and this is kind of I'm just thinking of this is like on that retreat we had like they would do like skits for the big conference, right, like they had me play jesus for the big skit of the conference, because, like god just rubs it in, right you know, like um, yeah, but but I do think, like I, yeah, I don't know if it was that early that I felt worthy right you know or like on that retreat.
Speaker 1:You know that, um that, I felt like I belonged you know, like I don't think that's you know there yet. But like um, but I definitely felt like a son you know like I definitely felt like I was on jesus team you know, that he, yeah, he had me like you.
Speaker 2:You felt not worthy, but you knew you were in the right place or you knew you might've been. You're beginning to be open to knowing that you were chosen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I didn't think I was supposed to be worthy.
Speaker 2:Right you know which.
Speaker 1:Obviously like that's the answer now. But, like I think, like the, you know, the one thing that I knew from the beginning right, Was that at that point or on that initial retreat, was that Jesus loved me, and I think that kind of carried me through the obvious unworthiness or not belonging no-transcript.
Speaker 2:But I think what's cool about your story is it's very visible in the outward reality. What, frankly, is probably most common for all of us, right, like there are things about my life that are not congruent with who I want to be, are not congruent with the type of person Jesus needs me to be, and I'm still living in that at this season, or still stuck in it, or still drawn to it or whatever, and I'm really not worthy of what God's asking me to do and what he's claiming me for. Yet I'm being claimed anyway, yet he's redeeming me anyway, yet he's loving me anyway.
Speaker 2:And I love your story and thank you for being humble enough to share it, because I think it it shows us this audacious mercy of God like the crazy love of God, like it's not, unlike the scene with the woman caught in adultery or the woman at the well, or Paul, or you know what I mean. It's like okay, disordered life, the Lord's pursuing you anyway, and I don't know. It reminds me something and I think it's a challenge to all of us to maybe, if we haven't revisited in a while, like revisit that early story or even that ongoing story of where I'm not worthy. I wasn't worthy yet.
Speaker 2:The Lord claimed me anyway, because I think that for me, like one thing I see that's beautiful about your life is I saw the fruitfulness of your life. And then I heard this part of the story a while back and I was like, oh well, he's been given much mercy, he's been forgiven much Like, so it makes so much sense that he'd be motivated to share the mercy of God with other people and to share that love of God with other people. And I just want to thank you for sharing the normal pieces, cause I think some of us, like my sin hasn't always been something that, like I, would be in jail for or that others would know, but that deep feeling of I'm not worthy for this is a very real thing for most of us humans.
Speaker 2:And most of us people being called to do something for God, and I think it's just really beautiful to see that raw moment of I'm feeling unworthy and, quite honestly, like by the mark of what was happening. Yeah, objectively unworthy, yeah, right Within, forgiven and chosen anyway, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, there is kind of the the old saying that like sin is boring, yeah, and you just it's. It's so relatable, even though the story might not be relatable, because it's just kid doesn't feel loved, does what he thinks he needs to do to feel loved or to feel something, and it goes in a bad direction because he wasn't looking in the right place and it's like that's kind of the story for everybody, you know, and um, yeah, and so like it might play out dramatically in this instance, but like it is like objectively boring. You know what I mean? It's like oh, that's really dramatic, but objectively it's like, oh, yeah, that's probably what was going to happen in some way, like for a lot of us, you know when you don't feel, feel loved, or you don't feel, um, or you just don't know.
Speaker 1:You know, the God who created you and has a plan for you and made you for you know something excellent you know and like, without that identity, without that root, like you're just, I think, destined to follow that path of not feeling loved, looking in the wrong place, hurting, hurt even more you know.
Speaker 2:I have a question do you think if you would have left that first retreat it's not the leadership retreat, but the first one we had, this encounter with christ, well, encounter with your friend outside our adoration, then encounter in adoration if you hadn't been in a relationship with bob or you hadn't been kind of in this little community of people and let's say, after that you weren't in some ongoing thing, do you think you'd be in the same place today?
Speaker 1:No, I mean certainly not. I mean I um yeah, like I think that's kind of the cool, uh, endurance of the people that were serving me, and like fighting to put me into positions that I wasn't ready for, or I wasn't worthy of Right.
Speaker 1:You know like, um, yeah, or even just the amount of people that just made it so they could have activities at the church. I mean in like, I mean Bob's tremendous, like he's, um, he sacrificed so much for us and like, I don't know, I don't know how he did it. He was raising a young family at the time. He had, I guess, two young kids, um, and they, you know he's out playing basketball with those on a Monday. He's doing, you know growing deeper nights on a Wednesday. He's, you know like uh, doing RCIA on Thursday. He's, you know like uh, doing RCIA on Thursday. He's, you know he's gone five nights a week, you know to, to be present to us. You know like, he's picking me up when I'm skipping school and I'm lying to him and telling him I'm, you know like, oh, I had this off or I'm not there, you know, and I'm just not in school and I'm bored and I call him. He's picking me up on a random tuesday.
Speaker 2:You know like he just was kind of ever, uh, enduring of what would be really really frustrating to deal with yeah, it's just I highlight that because I think I had a retreat like moment that I won't go into the full detail but very similar in its structure, um, but I didn't have like continuity after, like I didn't have a lot of relationship with the folks.
Speaker 2:Like I signed up with the retreat cause it was at the parish, but it was kind of like a false start in a way, and what I see. You know we talk a lot about discipleship and mission and we have different sets of ways we describe the process Like one that's common is the encounter accompany, community send. And what I see here with Bob and probably the other volunteers, is a real act of an accompaniment happening. You know, like in some sense that ongoing event whatever they called it or events was sort of the community component and there's probably a level of volunteer and missionary and people with the lights on community but then the larger community. But it's clear they weren't at least some of them weren't just hosting events, because you have this relationship with Bob and others and then Bob has the wisdom, even though it feels like a a harder choice, to pull you into a leadership role, and I just feel like that that probably facilitated, if I'm listening well, that ongoing conversion to happen for you instead of being a flash in the pan.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's true, and you know, and it's, it's cool that you bring up the encounter company community send Cause, like I, I love that articulation and it's, it's, it's interesting cause I struggled with it a lot you know, so I was working here when, when Archbishop was um publishing, you know that and and and we're so we're focusing on it a lot, and I was always trying to wrestle with how do I articulate this in a way that people can understand it but also put it into practice, and the thing that like connected the dots for me was not to think of it as like a path, as much as to think of it as like components. Like these are things that everybody needs. Like everybody needs moments of encounter, Not one. It's not just the middle part of the story, it's an essential daily part.
Speaker 1:Right, that was like a Pope Francis quote, like I invite you each day to encounter the Lord new, and like there's this. So everybody needs a sense of encounter ongoing in their life, but they also need somebody mentoring them, accompanying them, walking with them and helping them get further down the path. But then they need people next to them that they can grow with. You know, and. And then they need a mission, you know, to be a leader, and like all of those things, I don't think it was articulated in exactly that way at the time of like how they were doing it, but, like all those things, I don't think it was articulated in exactly that way at the time of like how they were doing it, but like, all those things were an essential part of my story.
Speaker 2:They were present in your story for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Is it okay? So there's probably there's tons of things we could continue to cover in your early story, but we see that Joe's being propelled into mission and there's some pieces of the story that maybe we won't get to today. In between, you know, graduating from going to Franciscan, graduating first youth ministry job here Vagabond but I want to highlight Vagabond with you for a little bit. It's your current kind of outpost, right, yeah, but it's a neat full circle thing because this Bob character right, he was, if I understand right, normal youth minister at the parish but then later in life he was led to be a founder with Vagabond Missions. Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah. So the work that he was doing in Schenectady with the community there I think kind of you know it's interesting. I pick on him sometimes because it's almost like we switched places because like I was living this like kind of crazy inner city life and when I first met him he had like blonde highlights and wore flip flops and said dude a lot, and like now he like is covered in tattoos, he's been doing inner city ministry forever and like it looks like we switched places or like that the story is about him and not me, if that makes sense, or like we were different characters in the story but he just he fell in love with that mission. You know like of that idea and I think sometimes the Holy Spirit just does unique things, like and I've seen that at different times in my life. There's times when things are fruitful and then there's times where things are fruitful beyond imagined.
Speaker 1:And you're, just what was God doing? And I and God was doing something just really unique in that specific time and that specific parish for those specific people. Um, and, and it changed everybody involved. Um, and you know so Bob went on and just a few years after and actually it was interesting so by the time I was graduating college, he was founding Vagabond Missions to basically do what he was doing. Like he's it's funny, cause, like we still use the same terminology Like we had a youth center in a basement they called it the underground. We still call our youth centers the underground. Like our Wednesday night activities were breakout, we still call our Wednesday night activities. So it's like, really, we're doing now in vagabond missions what they did for me when I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Um, and so Bob, uh, he started the, the first like youth center in Steubenville, ohio, cause, even though there's a great university there. Like youth center in Steubenville, ohio, cause, even though there's a great university there, it's a. It's a really a city with a lot of crime and poverty and in need of a mission, um, that that serves their kids. And so he, um, you know, back in I think 2007, you know, started a. They put a youth center, down the street from the high school, and just started reaching out to kids and trying to meet them on their terms and not wait for them to come to the church. But let's go fishing, let's pursue them. And, um, you know, and so they um, so I kind of started Vagabond in proper Um and uh, you know, it's amazing the stories of, of the work that Bob's done since then, you know, cause he's just, he's sold out to give his life to these kids and, um, the other people that started it with them.
Speaker 1:You know it's and it's it's really cool Cause a lot of the people that are in the mission now were either helped starting it back when it was in Steubenville or were in the youth group with me when I was a kid you know, so, like I'm uh, now I'm the area director for Vagabond Missions in Oklahoma city, but, like the area director in Steubenville is somebody that I knew in high school, my friend Mark, that he used to when we were like when I, after I turned my life around, I was trying, he would pick me up every morning and take me to daily mass. He was my, he was my age, but he had a car and he, so he'd wake up at 6.15 and pick me up and take me to mass. You know, and and and. Then another friend of mine, my friend Anthony. We grew up around the corner from each other. I've known him since I was born, in my whole life, and he's the area director in Mobile, alabama.
Speaker 1:And then Andy Charest. He was one of the first missionaries and he's now the president of Vagabond Missions. And Bob's still involved. He's the board of directors on our national board, but Andy's been a missionary from the very beginning and served all over. That's cool, yeah, so it's-.
Speaker 2:So, to say it simply, this is what my observation was, which is really cool. It's like Bob went to work at seemingly a normal parish job and then, probably because of the unique charisms of Bob and like the work of the Holy Spirit, it turned into this a little bit edgy youth ministry, yeah, or like we're comfortable going out and getting kids and we're not just pulling in the families that sign their kids up, but we're pulling in kids off the streets and so through that experience Vagabond is really going out into communities, maybe even discerning and planting where they're going to plant their youth center to be serving certain populations where maybe that parish can't have a youth ministry. Maybe that area is of a great need. Like am I? Am I summarizing?
Speaker 1:that. Yeah, you're perfect. Yeah, yeah, that's dead on. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's um, it's interesting, like and and if it's okay, I'll talk a little bit about here in Oklahoma city. Like you know, I was. It's funny Cause, like I'm, when I moved here I was. You know, I've been doing youth ministry all over and it's kind of funny now to tell this story all the time, cause it's like this isn't the kind of story you share in the job interview you know so it's like so, everyone.
Speaker 1:So I was here. When I was here in Oklahoma city working as director of youth ministry, father Rusty Hughes and Father Joe Arledge approached me and they said you know, we're trying to reach these kids in between our parishes, you know. So Father Rusty was at Holy Angels and Father Joe was at St Patrick's. It's kind of like Northwest 3rd to Northwest 23rd in Oklahoma City and they just were looking for something unique to serve their kids and they were just saying do you know of any group or organization that can help us? Because they just have a lot of unique challenges and unique poverty and crime and things that they're just growing up around. And, um, and we can't just hire a youth minister. You know, like we could maybe do something, but we couldn't, like you know, do what these kids need.
Speaker 1:And I started to tell him. I was like, oh yeah, I actually know an organization well that could help, and told him about Vagabond Missions and Father Joe's a graduate of Franciscan University as well, and so he knew of Bob and Father Rusty had heard of Bob and the mission that he did and thought, oh yeah, that sounds great, that'd be wonderful. And so we actually reached out to Vagabond Missions on behalf of the Archdiocese and we were starting a conversation with them and Archbishop was open to it and open to hearing about it. But Vagabond just wasn't in a place to come to a new city. We're in eight other cities and they had just expanded to Indianapolis and Philadelphia and they didn't have anybody internally that could start in an area from scratch. And the president at the time, andy Lesnefsky, just said Joe, would you ever be open to coming and working with us? And I was kind of like laughed because I was like you.
Speaker 1:I moved here to work at the Archdiocese you know like I feel like and I'm we're like in the middle of a hundred projects, like you know, like I couldn't get my head up from water to think of doing something different. Um, but over a series of maybe six to eight months, they just kept asking and I finally told my wife and she's like no way, you know, like I'm laughing. And I finally told my wife and she was like no way, Like I'm laughing.
Speaker 2:And then we, we just kept praying and we were and to pull the onion back, part of no way or the resistance I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like vagabond missionaries, similar to other missionaries, like live on Providence you're, you're raising a salary and then, if a new area like maybe there's some help from headquarters, but not only are you raising your salary and leaving dependents and the normal security of like a diocese job, you're also starting something from complete stretch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it was like hey, here's a good job offer. Like, raise all of your own money, your salary and all the expenses to do this. Figure out all the contacts in the job and like leave what you're currently doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we want you to be the missionary. Run the organization, raise all the funds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, yeah and um leave all your comfort behind.
Speaker 1:Yeah and uh, while you have. You know I've at the time I had three kids at home, you know. So it's uh, you know, I had twin infants that were six months old, you know. So it was like, but we finally had gotten this chance to. It's actually I mean, it's a longer story I won't get into but we were down in Houston for a couple of weeks and we were separate from work. One of our daughters had surgery and we just had to be turned off and it finally gave us space to pray and all of a sudden we were like, holy crap, god might be calling us to do this thing.
Speaker 1:It still took us a couple of months to get to the place where we would say yes, and again, this is another kind of crazy providential thing. But I decided to tell the archbishop that I was gonna step away from my work at the Archdiocese on the feast of St Dominic Savio, because his mentor, st John Bosco, is a patron saint of youth and St John Bosco started a youth center and his first disciple was St Dominic Savio, and you know. So I just kind of arbitrarily decided like I'm gonna tell him. On this day, and like a year to the day, my son was born and we named him Savio after Dominic Savio. But it was just like kind of confirmation of like, just feeling like God was saying like you're doing the right thing, you're doing what I asked you to do, um and so, um, yeah, so, so what Vagabond actually does you know?
Speaker 1:So I know I've given kind of like all of the things around it, um, but we basically open up youth centers, um in underserved areas and we hire young adult missionaries who take, you know, one to three, four or five years of their life, um to invest the best part of their day into these teenagers. Um, and we try to invest heavily in kids and um, you know, we'll meet them anywhere from, you know, playing basketball or soccer at a park, or we'll meet a parent who meets another parent, or we'll go over to the schools and we'll hand out food or refreshments and meet kids that way. But we just try to meet them on their terms, with the hope that we can find kids that are completely disengaged and bring them all the way into the church and into living real discipleship, and for some kids that means going through RCIA. I watched a bunch of my friends when I was in high school become Catholic, and then I watched their siblings become Catholic, and then I watched their cousins become Catholic.
Speaker 2:It's interesting not just become Catholic. Yeah, and want to join his church, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:There is like there's interesting statistics, and I may be misquoting, but at some point people will tell. I remember hearing the statistic that half the people that go through RCA aren't going to church anymore a year later. Oh, wow, and that might be an old statistic, yeah, and so forgive me for if I'm misquoting it, but um, but there's kind of this reality that, like, sometimes people are going through rcia and aren't finding nourishment or aren't finding accompaniment afterwards and you know, and it's just, there's something different about a 15 year old kid choosing, choosing to become catholic and then doing the work that it takes to learn and study and be consistent.
Speaker 1:You know, um yeah, um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's pretty amazing, that's really cool, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what's it like for a kid to be a? You mentioned what a breakout and underground what's. What are those events like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, which we I know we have all these different kinds of terms, uh, you know so, breakouts, kind of our signature event, Um, and we, what we basically try to do is we make it the best night of the week and so we'll open up, say like 5.30 typically, we have soccer goals set up, we have a basketball hoop. This past year we've renovated a part of the old school at St Patrick's. We rented a portion of their building and have renovated to this beautiful space. It's about 3,000 square feet and there's all new couches and TVs and it's just a beautiful, beautiful area. But it's an extra home for these kids and they can come there and they can just have, they can play games and and have kind of the fellowship.
Speaker 1:Um, then we, we do dinner, uh, and then after dinner they'll do, you know, kind of some discussion with us, our volunteers, our missionaries, Um, and then we'll typically do about a 10 minute, five to 10 minute presentation on a simple gospel message you know like, and it might be something as simple as like God having a plan for your life, and there's just a presentation. Maybe it's about the life, a simple story from a saint, Yep.
Speaker 2:And you know the essence of Jeremiah 29, 11, basically yeah.
Speaker 1:Just give them a nugget and, like you know, help and maybe that's all they leave.
Speaker 1:Right Is the, for I know well the plans I have for you, you know, and that they go, oh, wow, god actually has a plan for me and we keep throwing those little nuggets during, kind of our signature event.
Speaker 1:But the hope is is that through the relational events before that and through those kinds of things, they're they're open to going on a retreat or camp, um, you know. So this past summer we took, uh, 25 kids to Steubenville, um, which is awesome because some of the kids have never been out of the state and we'll take. We took them up to um, missouri, and then we did like silver dollar city and took them to like a theme park the day before and they get to hear the gospel proclaimed. And then another group of kids, we took another 12 kids down to the Pines, which is a camp down in North Texas, and they get to do like this experience. That typically is like a thousand dollars for a kid to go to a camp and through like our partnership with them, they reduce the cost and then we fundraise the rest and we charge the kids 50 bucks just so that they show up when they say they're going to show up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have some skin in the game.
Speaker 1:And they get to go on this experience that's normally reserved for people that are just have a lot of material wealth, but they get to hear the gospel proclaimed in a different setting. In a different setting, you know, and it's kind of all of the work that leads up to getting them to an encounter is so that we can do the you know, intentional formation and discipleship afterwards and so that they can start figuring out, like what does it mean for God to have a plan for my life? Or like maybe they've heard all these nuggets, but how do I actually pray? Like you tell me to pray, like teach me how to pray, and we get to work on our mentoring and some of the important parts of growth, you know, with just learning to follow Jesus.
Speaker 2:So yeah, super cool. Yeah, how many missionaries with Vagabond do we have here in Oklahoma City?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so right now there's three and a half, so we have a part time. Well, me plus three and a half, so four and a half. Um, we uh, we have a really cool team, uh, of young adults that uh, you really it's. They a lot of times they use it as like a gap year, you know so post-college um, but sometimes they stay on long-term. You know the missionaries. We have Daniel. He's going on, I think his fifth year of doing it.
Speaker 1:Emma, she was a graduate of OU. She's a chemical engineering background and she took two years, so she's going to finish up this summer and then she's going to go over to London to study I think it's environmental engineering or something in that area. Uh, like, I think it's like environmental engineering or something in that area. Um, and we have Zach, uh, who he was a former seminarian and he's uh, you know he discerned out but he wanted to keep doing mission, he wanted to put all of that formation to work, and so he's, he just started up with us, um. And then we have Soleil. She's been doing it for four years and she's our part-time person. Um, she helps us with like recruiting and things like that.
Speaker 1:So it was a great team and humbling because they're like. They can do anything. You know like these, like, they're just they. They're all well-educated, they're smart, they're talented, like and they choose to like. Instead of following their career path, they chose to serve these kids and invest in them.
Speaker 2:When you said that they're given the best of their day to these kids. It makes me think that most of the time for most of these missionaries is hand-to-hand contact. I mean, it's one-on-one, one-on-small group contact in the lives of these kids. Is that fair? Like that's part of it?
Speaker 1:That's the goal. Yeah, that's definitely the goal. I, you know, I also see it as a, you know, pope benedict had this term that he would use. He he talked about like formation as teaching the art of christian living, and and I see, like taking a time as a missionary is learning the art of christian living, and so that's one of the biggest parts of my job is actually investing in them and forming those missionaries and, like you know, so they, I would say they do their best time with the kids, but they also, they also are invested in their own growth it's interesting you say that, like when I, when I, shortly after I, had my conversion like to christ, fully like a reversion later in life and fully became a disciple, like he invited me into mission and that was mainly the mission fabric of my ordinary life and leading, discipleship and stuff.
Speaker 2:But I quickly started to realize like people who either have been full-time missionaries or were currently a full-time missionary, they had something to share with me about how they lived, about how they discipled and like I mean in a playful way I would say I'm like a little bit envious of, like they had this time in life where they had a couple of years to decide to really be in that space and develop that lifestyle and that habit. And so, like I don't know, like I would encourage anyone who might be contemplating like hey, is now a time for me to be a missionary, like from like the dozens of people I know, like that time in formation and that act of like applying the formation right.
Speaker 2:So like the people with you like to cite an example, the four people you mentioned like as a team.
Speaker 2:Together they're actively challenging each other, growing, may have mentors within or with outside the apostolate, but then you're kind of helping coach and teach and model them, but they're putting into practice coaching and teaching and modeling the same things to students. So there's this. Obviously they're engaged in missionary work and that's fruitful in of itself, but for the rest of their life they're also going to be able to bear fruit and be better formed and live a life closer to christ because of these years devoted to mission oh, yeah, yeah, and again just to put that plug out there of what you were saying is we're actually hiring two new missionaries for the fall so somebody's, you know, knows somebody or is themselves feeling called, you know, apply, you know, apply to be a missionary, just google vagabond missions, but just vagabondmissionscom and um, and, and we would even have some say over if you wanted to be stationed in Oklahoma, uh, getting getting you staying close to home if this is where you're from.
Speaker 1:But, um, but no, I, I, I believe a lot in that part of the mission. You know, like cause, I think one of the things that I've reflected on since you know my time with with Bob is, you know, he did a great job pouring the mission. We had great volunteers that like, even like I like to run, like you and I run now like together and uh and, and I I really enjoy getting to do that.
Speaker 1:But the only reason I like to run is because I had a volunteer when I was a kid who was a runner and he would take a group of kids for a run and, like I just had picked it up as a habit and he, you know, mentored me in it.
Speaker 1:But you know, we really want to build a culture that's reaching out to kids, not based on one person, you know, and not based on just but like. That's why having a team, we have a team of volunteers, a team of missionaries, and so, you know, missionaries will come in for just a couple of years, but kids know more than one mentor. And it's kind of the advantage of, you know, I, I'm old enough to be doing youth ministry back when safe environment hit for the first time and it felt like a tragedy, right Cause you felt like, oh my gosh, we can't be alone with a kid. You're like I have so many conversion moments, just Bob driving me home from youth group, reading scripture and praying for me, you know, but like um, but it actually, I think, makes us healthier because now when we, you know, drive kids home, there's a few of us in the van praying together or there's, um, you know, or kids home, there's a few of us in the van praying together, or there's, you know, or they're getting to know, more than one interested adult.
Speaker 1:And there's actually a study that came out a few years ago that talked about, like what are the conditions that people need to keep their faith after high school, and one of the key components was having at least five interested adults in their life.
Speaker 2:Who kept the faith as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who just modeled or who are like. So it would be like an adult that had a faith, that was interested in them, and so it was fun. Because when I first heard that, like as a youth minister back when I, I would try to find that like, can I give them a confirmation sponsor and help the confirmation sponsor actually engage with the kid? Can I give them a small group leader? Can I put them on various sports teams or whatever it is? And I would try to build how many interested adults? And I think we get to do that here. And so when one person has a change of life and they're not there anymore, the ministry doesn't fall apart. The ministry doesn't start over, which happens a lot. Right, you get maybe a burst of a ministry because the original people are there, but then they slowly spin off.
Speaker 2:I really like that about your model. Since you've started this and you've shared things with me. That was one of the first things I realized is you had a concerted focus on getting certain volunteers involved early and I feel like obviously this benefit to the benefit of the staff. There's other interested adults that the kids feel and probably, honestly, children in this area have at least a fractured relationship with a parent or just one active parent. I'm sure some have both, but it's probably fairly common that there's less adult role models keeping the faith in their life, probably, um, so that's really cool but also provides you continuity right, so like the missionaries are moving in and out and it gives the missionaries a community to come into which is a really neat model.
Speaker 2:That's not in every organization that's doing mission work at this highly relational level, so it's really cool.
Speaker 2:The other thing I'd want to chime in on, that like I feel emboldened by being reminded of this study it was either you or someone else who reminded me is like you were naming specific roles, but all of us as adults, I think we should be invited to like hear that stat and realize we're one of the five.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know what I mean. So like, whether I'm coaching a ball team, whether it's my kids' friends, whether it's my godson or goddaughter, or like I'm teaching one of the catechesis classes, or I'm just a friendly parent in the community at Coffee and Donuts or whatever, or I'm formally being a volunteer, in this way, like we can be that one interested adult and like there are kids typically, if we're just honest in our life, you know whatever our different roles might be, and so like we can be one of those five and we don't have to be in their life their whole life, but just a season where we were interested and we were a good model of the faith could mean that they're staying with the faith for their whole life which is really cool, yeah, that they're staying with the faith for their whole life, which is really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's actually one of the things that, like, have really been convicted on, especially, like when we've had to wrestle with models of discipleship. The thing that I'm always convicted about is, like that's who I want to be as a dad and that's who I ought to be as a spouse, and that's who I ought to be as an uncle or cousin or brother, because, like, when you really look at what it takes to invest in a kid from the beginning, where you're like, and what we teach our volunteers a lot of times is at the beginning, you're just investing in them, listening, asking questions, asking them what you can pray for and intentionally praying for them every day, and that's where we start with our volunteers.
Speaker 2:What's cool about that is it works for Vagabond. It also works if I'm a parent and kids are hanging out at my house. Yep, Whether that's grade school or high school like that's doable, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we try to teach people to like be observant of movements of the Holy Spirit, of like are there kids that jump out? You might have, like one of your kid's friends might really bother you. That actually might be the Holy Spirit telling you that like they're a kid you need to be praying for, or it might just they might just respond really well to you and that might be a sign. Oh man, god's kind of put this person on my heart. Or they just have put him in my house you know whether I like it or not visiting with my kids, you know, and I think if we're attentive, and then we're intentional, and then we're intentional and like so we even give our volunteers as simple as, like I print out an Excel spreadsheet, have them write down the names of the kids that jumped out to them and then chart each week. You know what? What prayer intention did you ask them about? Have you invited them to something?
Speaker 2:Do you say we're attentive and we're intentional? Yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so, but but again, like I do think, like discipleship really should happen at the closest people.
Speaker 1:We should disciple our spouses and invest in them in the same way, because really part of discipleship is growing together and encountering the Lord together and pursuing holiness together. Those are all things that we ought to do within our families. But for me speaking personally, as somebody that spent so much time in the church doing that it's sometimes less natural to do that with your siblings or with you know, like you feel like that's a different thing and it's just not the truth. I mean, I think for a lot of us that's where we're really called.
Speaker 2:You know, even I'm saying this like I have siblings and nephews and nieces and people that I should be investing intentionally the ordinary fabric of your life that doesn't have programming oriented towards discipleship ought to have you being attentive and intentional and flexing the muscles you've learned to disciple and share the good news and yeah, because the programming matters a lot less.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like, and that's, and that's a good thing about us, with our volunteers and with our to disciple and share the good news. Yeah, because the programming matters a lot less. Yeah, and that's a good thing about us with our volunteers and with our missionaries is like it really I don't necessarily care if the game was really fun or if the talk was perfect, like I care that kids were there being invested in and like it's those underneath conversations that are powerful, and then the hope is is that we can introduce them to Christ in a powerful way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what's beautiful is early on. You know you're showing them that they matter, that they're seen and they're known and they're loved, right Like even so, all that attentive and intentional is really modeling Christ's love. We might not have been ready to proclaim the gospel to them, but we're learning about them and they're able to experience being valued. And then you can kind of know how you're going to accompany, I presume with the sheet you have, like it's forcing the volunteer to like kind of take that to prayer, kind of think about it and start to. I'm sure it would deepen each time the level of engagement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it makes things adjustable right, because if you're praying about the kid and how to serve them, like so, one of the things that we do is we have a lot of fun activities that we take them to. You know like it might be, you know, going down to Citadel Park, you know, to play something it might we take them ice skating or we'll take them bowling or we'll do all these different things. But, like, part of how we form those is through conversation and realizing like, hey, here's a segment of kids that, like, they're not going to say yes to going on a retreat, they're not going to say yes to a soccer game, but like they would say yes to like a painting project or you know like. Or they might say yes to you know like, doing video game night or smash brothers night or whatever Like, and so when you're in relationship with them, you're able to serve them and to give them the opportunity to say yes easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're getting close to our time. I kind of want to ask just a high level question. I mean, I think a lot of us want to be more sold out disciples want to be, you know, more sold out disciples want to be active in, in mission, just like as someone who spent a lot of their life in the missionary space and kind of where we were here. Whether you're talking to a formal missionary or you're talking to someone who wants to kind of be more missionary in their ordinary life, like what advice would you give them to be more fruitful or what encouragement would you give them if they're feeling like I want to do this, but I don't know the next step?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean it's funny, because the thing that was going through my head was just, um, take good care of yourself, you know, like, and and obviously that's maybe a different way to think about it, but I just I think so many times we have an idea and this has like been my experience even with Vagabond. I have this vision of like, this is where we're going to be in one year, this is where we're going to be in three years, this is where we're going to be in five years, and when it goes slower, you beat yourself up. And it's like I've had experiences where, like, I've been a youth minister at a church and we're having 15 kids come, and I've had the experience where I'm a youth minister at a church and I have 250 kids come, and I was the same person, working as hard as I could with the gifts and the resources that God gave me, and I like thought that the outside perspective of success was the same as what God really saw as successful. And it's like, if we're faithful to who we're supposed to be as disciples, meaning that we're praying, we're taking good care of ourselves, we're listening to the Holy Spirit, we're acting in humility ourselves, we're listening to the Holy Spirit, we're acting in humility. And if we're doing those things and then we're just bold and intentional, I just think the fruit in some ways takes care of itself.
Speaker 1:And obviously there's lots of good quotes about being faithful and that leads to being fruitful. But I really think that that's true. You know that, like being faithful to your, your own vocation, the, the things that are most I just fully given to you, I think that that's part of how you be more fruitful. Um, and I think sometimes we we fall into this mentality that, like we have to save everybody or we have to like have this extra heroic effort to like win somebody over, and it's, I think, when we try to do too much is oftentimes when we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing and being faithful to what God's given us. And I think that humility of not stepping out to do too much, I think helps people be more effective in making disciples.
Speaker 2:I love that. I'm tempted to summarize your point, but I just invite the audience to go ahead and pause on that and look at the fabric of your own life and hit the back to like go ahead and pause on that and like look at the fabric of your own life and hit the back 30 seconds a few times and listen to it, cause I think there's some great wisdom there and I'm going to take that on my own advice. So I'm not going to try to summarize the words exactly, um, but I would think there's. There's an invitation to really keep the first things, the first things, stay with Jesus and and try not to let it all be about us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Well, joe, thank you for being with us today. I'd kind of like to have you back on, honestly, listening to the end of it. There was the curious missionary in me. Like listening to how you train your volunteers and things like that, it seems really beautiful. Um, where can people find out more about Vagabond? Like, if they're curious to be a volunteer, may want to take you up on discerning missionary life, um, or or donate, or be a part of the community. How do they figure that out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the simplest way is uh, vagabondmissionscom, slash OKC and you can get my contact information there. You can reach out to us Really, and all those things are helpful. We have a prayer team where we send out messages every week with a name of a volunteer teen missionary and donor and we ask you to pray for them. And that's because of a lot of my story where I just I'm convicted that intercessory prayer is what you need for conversion, you know and so. So if you'd like to be on the intercessory prayer team, you can find my information there. Just shoot me an email and I'll add you to that.
Speaker 1:You know, donors are always helpful. We fundraise everything from scratch and we and it's just expensive and we invest heavily in these kids, and so the best way to help is through monthly donations, reoccurring donations, because it helps us to serve them better. Having a consistent income helps. So if you're able to do a monthly donation, that's very helpful, um, and and would make a real difference in these kids, um. And then volunteers. We have great volunteers Like I. I just I don't know how God blessed us with such great people, um, but he wanted to bless these kids, and we have some volunteers, of all ages, shapes and sizes, but they just um, they do great work with these kids and so if, if you feel called to to do it we typically have we'll have you come, do a come and see and check it out and and it might be a good fit, and so if you're interested in volunteering, that'd be another great way to to serve this mission Beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, praise God for the good work and I would just say praying for our youth. If you're moved by this at all, you know, take a moment to pray for what Joe's doing, but all our youth across Oakland City.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, I really appreciate it. Thanks for the time, james. I really, yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you all. We'll catch you next time. This has been Red Dirt Catholics. I'm James and I'm Joe. All right, Thanks oh oh, oh, oh oh.