Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Magnanimity, Mary and Modern Messes (ft. Carrie Gress)
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In this episode, Jayce and James are joined by author and speaker Carrie Gress to share her powerful testimony and discuss faith, family and feminism.
Imagine if someone told you that the framework of dignity and equality you've been taught to champion might actually be undermining the very foundations of your faith. In this thought-provoking conversation with author and speaker Carrie Gress, Jayce and James explore the profound tension between feminism and Catholicism that many modern women feel, but struggle to articulate.
Through personal stories of evangelizing her own family and navigating the transition from career focus to motherhood, Carrie offers practical wisdom for those trying to live authentic Catholic womanhood in a culture that misunderstands it. She reminds us that evangelization succeeds not through winning arguments but through loving people exactly where they are—a lesson she learned through her own failures.
• Carrie's journey from secular Oregon to Catholic faith following her father's death
• The challenge of transitioning from individual spirituality to motherhood and finding new ways to pray
• How feminism promotes autonomy as an idol while Christianity celebrates relationship and vulnerability
• The "shadow church" of feminism with its own theological virtues of envy, contempt, and rage
• Why evangelization succeeds through loving people where they are, not through intellectual arguments
• The importance of magnanimity for men and rejecting the "fear of discomfort" that enables dysfunction
• How Our Lady provides the perfect model of authentic womanhood through humility and surrender
• God's providence in preparing Carrie for her mission despite opposition
Find more from Carrie at carriegress.com or visit theologyofhome.com for her blog with daily content offering an alternative to the feminist narrative.
Register now for the 2025 Discipleship Conference for the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City! This full-day, bilingual event will feature amazing speakers, breakout sessions, adoration, Mass, confessions, vendors and more at the Oklahoma City Convention Center on Saturday, August 9. Register now to get the early-bird price at OKDisciple.org.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Hello and welcome to Red Dirt Catholics. I'm Jace and I'm James and we have Keri Gress here, who's big time. When we found out that we were getting Keri, we were extremely excited and then we went and read everything that was on her website and, as I was, as I was reading all of that, james, I, I, I we were sitting in the coffee shop together and I was like James, I don't know if we're smart enough to have Carrie on this podcast. Seeing, seeing everything, like, like Carrie you've been yeah, it was. It was a delight diving into all of your different content and stuff. What's been going on for you this week, carrie?
Speaker 2:Well gracious. I was just in Oklahoma City last weekend at the Women's Conference and it was my 48th state, so it was really great to be in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1:Who are you missing?
Speaker 2:North Dakota and Alaska.
Speaker 2:North Dakota and Alaska Got my work cut out for me but, yeah, you know it was a really fantastic event.
Speaker 2:The organizers did an amazing job and I think I was just so impressed with just the soulfulness of the women and, you know, the receptivity to my message, because a lot of things that I say I think are hard to hear and hard for people to be open to, and that was one of the things that really struck me was how open that group of women was and I had great follow up conversations. That's usually actually my favorite part is sort of the after the event conversations that I get to have with individual women and hear about what's going on in their lives and, um, it's always very moving, um, to see what the Holy spirit is doing. So, anyway, um, so that was a great trip and, um, you know, back to real life, I'm I'm a stay at home mom and, uh, most of my life is spent doing that, but I'm writing a new book too, so I've been busy, um, just researching and getting that prepped. So it's been a busy week, but it's great to be here with you guys.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Give us the sneak peek. What's the topic for the book?
Speaker 2:So the book is called Something Wicked, which is kind of a nod to Shakespeare. Something wicked this way comes, but also to the new movie Wicked, all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very topical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the subtitle is still a work in progress, but it's something to the effect of why feminism and Christianity can never blend. And I think that you know my previous books. I've looked at, really, the second wave of feminism and just saw how many problems came out of that in our understanding of what it means to be a woman and our relationship with our lady, all of those things. Um, then I wrote the book the end of woman and really got into first wave feminism, which I, you know, I'd always thought was really good, and just found an incredible amount of problems there. Um, but what I I didn't ever really button up, because the end of woman is a secular book is just, you know, can we blend Catholicism with feminism? And I think that so many people are trying to do that and I haven't seen it done successfully yet, and I think there are very good reasons why it's not being done successfully. So that's really what I'm going into in the book.
Speaker 1:Wow, deep stuff there. With some of that, carrie, I just want to take a step back from what we're writing and we're really interested in getting to know you, and one of our favorite questions that we ask any of our guests is just kind of for a shorter testimony of like how did how did you come to know Jesus, how did you come to know the church? And like what was what was the, what was the journey like coming in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I grew up in Oregon very, you know, the least church state in the country and I grew up in Eugene. Oregon, in particular, which is at the time, was like the pot capital of the United States. Oregon, in particular, which is at the time, was like the pot capital of the United States, but, gratefully, my parents were, my dad had been, was raised Catholic and my mom was a convert, but we were very much like, just you know, went every Sunday, but there was no heart there for me at that stage and then, unfortunately, my father passed away, or, you know, providentially, God had a real plan with it, I think, when I was I just turned 16, and that, I think, was a just a huge turning point in my life because I realized these are big questions that I have. Now I can't explain these things. I'm, you know, I'm seeking, I'm searching, I want to know, like, what happened to my dad and why did he suffer so much? And you know, those kinds of things is really where I started.
Speaker 2:And then I also had heard about Medjugorje and I had been. I went there after the year after he died and that was really, I think, just a special experience as well, just drawing close to the Blessed Mother and learning about the rosary and all those kinds of things. So I was sort of in this strange world, though, because a lot of this was happening in isolation. It wasn't like I had friends or family who were really that community rallying around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it wasn't until I was in college that I actually joined a prayer group with a bunch of women who were all my mom's age. They pray the rosary every Thursday at at the high school that I went to, and so I just started joining them and that was really where I learned about marrying, consecration and um. But this was also the stage where I've figured out like how much new age stuff I was engaged in. Um, I had a grandmother who was very involved in the new age and so, um, she, you know, was always telling me all kinds of things and talking about astrology, you know all this stuff. And so it was really remarkable to kind of, you know, in retrospect, to look back and to see this battle that was going on for my soul in college, because, of course, on the one hand, you've got, you know, radical college life, lots of drinking, you know all the things that are associated with that, then this new age piece, and then I'm praying the rosary every Thursday. You know, it's just this wild, you know, triangle of of what you know, what's God doing and um, and I.
Speaker 2:Then, in the meantime, I'm, um, my mom bought a house in the, in the mountains, about two hours from where we, where I grew up, and I just started going over there by myself because I people couldn't go with me when I was available or whatever and it was in that place where I was in so much silence and it was so beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's just this incredibly beautiful area of Oregon and I think that was really the space where I started to hear God's voice very clearly and, you know, very purposefully, and started understanding that he's speaking to me and that you know I have a mission and you know all these kinds of big questions are being answered in a certain respect. So, anyway, it all started there and then I just I finally found myself at Steubenville. I did my master's degree there and that was pretty radical, going from, you know, not knowing anybody my age that was really faithful to them, being around all these people that were interested in faith, everyone who's really interested at the time, yeah, so that was an incredible gift to just kind of normalize the Catholic culture in my life.
Speaker 2:And then from there I finally went to Washington DC to do my PhD at Catholic University and kind of got involved in the think tank world. I was George Weigel's assistant for three years and so I saw how he kind of navigated, writing and speaking and all this and I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would be following in his footsteps.
Speaker 2:You know, I never. I didn't even know how to write. And then I moved to Italy and learned how to write there and I got a job as a journalist and it was, you know, one of these wild things that it was so clear God knew what he was doing. But, you know, and I would get, the editor would send back my work just covered in red. And you know, to this day I have a very thick skin about my writing because I've just I've seen how bad it can be. So, anyway, that was really where the idea came from. You know, once I finished my doctorate and all of that, I realized I could start writing books and, you know, really worked with our family life, because by that point I had gotten married and had several children and and it was a lot easier to write than a dissertation. So I'm now in the 11th book.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was quite a journey. But and of course you can't just write books, you have to actually talk about them too, and that would that's been a whole other piece, because I hate public speaking or I don't hate it anymore, but I used to hate it, I, you know just it was so petrifying for me, Are?
Speaker 3:you an introvert.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, god has brought me a long way from, um you know, really having a phobia about it to actually having to do a lot of it, and it feels like an amazing blessing to get past that, you know, obstacle. That was a huge one in my life.
Speaker 1:Wow, thank you for sharing all of that. I wanted to follow up on like, yeah, go a little bit more into detail of like what that transition from Eugene Oregon and I have several.
Speaker 1:I have several friends from, from the Oregon area. A friend of mine that just moved back there like kind of against his will. He didn't want to go back, um of just like. I just wonder what that would like. Changes like, like obviously you were started encountering it like the Lord and like a deep sense of Catholicism and was accompanied by some of these women, but then you were heading towards as you're heading towards Steubenville, like that's just so stark and like I'm wondering if there was a sense of like, why are you guys asking me about my like?
Speaker 1:I just know what Steubenville is like, like everyone's like praying with you and will like just stop and pray over you and inviting you to holy hours and different things Like there's just not a lot of, there's just a real sense of authentic Christian community there, like in your, in yourself personally. Was that? Was that difficult initially, like kind of being open to that, or were you? Or were you? Was it more of a? I've been starving for this and I didn't even know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it was definitely a combination of both. I actually had no idea what the charismatic movement was when I moved there. So and I started there in the summer because I was just discerning, I was taking a few classes to sort of see if this was going to be a good fit.
Speaker 2:I remember asking one of the women that lived across the hall from me, like what is going on at that moment? Like why are people speaking and talking? You know, I just had no idea what was going on and so, anyway, you know, obviously I was there for two years and so you get familiar with it and begin to understand it and really come to have an appreciation. You know, I came to have an appreciation for it but, yeah, it was definitely really a startling thing for me, but it was something that you know, I was open to. I wouldn't consider myself a charismatic Catholic now, but I love that, I'm familiar with it and it's, you know, I have an understanding of it and a background and a lot of people whom I'm very close to that are are very involved in it too.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, it was definitely a huge culture shock to go from Oregon. Um, you know, and actually it was even fun and like silly things. Um, I, I had an SUV and um, I remember one of my teachers saying to me you know, carrie, I saw you in your RV and I was like what RV? What are you talking about? Like I'm not driving a recreational vehicle, it's just SUV.
Speaker 2:Like people like there was all kinds of cultural things that were just strange to get used to in terms of, you know, just kind of mid small, tiny Midwestern town, you know, things like that that were just different.
Speaker 2:You know, steubenville is such an odd place to begin with too, so that there was a lot of of change, but so much growth, I think, in terms of so that there was a lot of change, but so much growth, I think, in terms of you know, when you, when you come out of a place like Oregon especially when you have you've always, you know, obviously I still had a community there and friends and family and an identity and then to be kind of stripped of all that and come to a place where none of that really matters anymore.
Speaker 2:I think that was a really great experience for me to just kind of get like dig into the core of who I am and you know what God is, sees in me and is calling me to do. And I also had an amazing spiritual director, father Dan Petit, who's not at Franciscan anymore I want to say he's in Texas right now, but he was really great with me and just said you know, you need to spend an hour every day in prayer in addition to mass and the rosary, and I was like I don't have time, are you kidding, I don't have time for that and it was the bet was so life transforming, both in my own life, but I was also. I was able to spend a lot of time praying for my family. Now all my family have all come back to the church, everybody's in valid marriages, everybody's baptized like something very miraculous, you know, which was definitely not the case when I moved there. In fact, my mom thought that I had joined a cult when I moved there, like she just was really uncomfortable with my time there.
Speaker 1:So anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2:God has has moved mountains, but it was really a tough transition.
Speaker 3:Kira, I'm curious, you mentioned something that kind of pulled on my heartstring. I have a few, a few friends, some who I know listen to the podcast, and some family members as well who have lost a parent around the same age that you're mentioning and and I just want to point out like I'm very appreciative of how appreciative of what I heard, both the sorrow and like the gratitude that it was part of God's providence Are you comfortable kind of sharing with the audience what the Lord did on the heels of losing your father?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's. You know, it's one of those things that when you lose a parent of that age you don't it's very hard to process, I think. And he was sick for a very long time, or you know, it wasn't that long I guess, when his cancer, a very aggressive kind of cancer, but he was sick from August until the following April when he passed away. So it was pretty and we didn't actually know that his diagnosis was terminal. My parents didn't tell us he was terminal until after Christmas, till like February. So there was kind of very little time to prepare because he was already very much declining and sick by the time we knew what was going on. But but I think you know he the last week of his life he was in a coma and he very much.
Speaker 2:We had the priest come for last rites. He'd been anointed previously I think, but it was just one last time and we hadn't heard from him. You know there was no sign of cognition or any awareness that anybody was in the room for, you know, probably five days. And when the priest came and started with the Father, son, holy Spirit, my dad did the sign of the cross. Father, son, Holy Spirit, my dad did the sign of the cross and you know it's just as a young woman, you know it was just such a deep, such a deep impression upon me that here, you know, this is the most important thing to my dad, and so I think, all of those kinds of things, you can just really see how God was stirring something up in me that I, I think, if I, you know, my father, hadn't passed away, I can only imagine sort of the trajectory that I would have been on and, um sure, you know it's pretty ugly when I look and think about the direction that I was going and the, the questions that I wasn't asking and, um, you know, the places I wasn't open to.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, it's, it's, it's been a big, just piece to obviously process and heal from and also to really and I was also sadly at the stage where we weren't very close because I was, I was a teenager and so kind of healing that post death, I think has been really a remarkable gift that God has allowed me to process through as an adult woman. You know, it wasn't until I was really in my thirties that that happened, so, um, that was a really great gift as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I experienced something really similar, like when my mom passed away as a result of a car accident.
Speaker 1:When I was 16 and and I definitely had a moment after, like maybe like five or six years after I had converted to Catholicism. I was raised Southern Baptist and there was a moment where I was like I don't like the Lord gets done what he wants to get done. But there was just like a like it was interesting. It was an interesting thought experiment for me of like I don't know if I would be where I am, or Catholic or like at that time I was a focused missionary, like is that like a key piece of all of it and bringing good out of the bad and some of that providential stuff. So I've definitely had an interesting time processing some similar themes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it reminds me of the scripture all things work together for good for those who love God and are called together according to his purpose. And there's like it's beautiful how God brings new life out of death right Like you can see, like a mini death and resurrection occurring, like in your story there and in Carrie's story it further and, carrie, if you'd be open, I think a lot of us relate. You mentioned that all your family's you know back in the church and in valid marriages and I'm thinking there might be like some a lesson for some of us there or a thought, and especially knowing you've written a book called Nudging, is it Nudging Conversations, you know, like kind of coaching us how to how to navigate faith and family life and encouraging and welcoming folks back home. But I'm guessing that was written from a personal place as well as like a teaching place.
Speaker 2:No, happily, I'd love to talk about it, because it was such a funny thing, because it was totally born from my own failure, like I was, so, you know, just working hard to try to evangelize my family, and it was a disaster, like it just ended up creating more tension in my relationships. And, you know, I just finally was like God, these are not my gifts. Like you got to like I can't do this, I'm just failing. You have to take over. I'm like handing the baton back to you. I cannot evangelize these people at all.
Speaker 2:And of course, that was the real turning point, because what I decided to do was be the best sister, be the best daughter, be the best friend to these people in my life, love them exactly where they're at, not live with this expectation like, oh, I'll love you more if you're Catholic, kind of thing. Like you know that I had that they had to be convinced by me or somehow I was selling them something and as soon as I let go of that that was you know, I think that was really part of God's plan was they were converted out of what the changes they saw in me and the kind of love that they received from me. And you know, obviously they received from me and you know, obviously grace is at work and so, you know, so many other things are happening. And, of course, the witness of my friends. I had amazing friends at Steubenville, many of whom I'm still very close to, but it was that experience of just letting go and saying, you know, I just need to love them where they're at, and it was. It's precisely in that sense of we need to love these people, love people exactly where they're at.
Speaker 2:That I think that's the real key to evangelization and to conversion, because it's not for most people, it's not an intellectual effort, it's not something like oh, you just articulated so well the five proofs of God's existence from Thomas Aquinas. You know, exactly Like it's not. It's not that. And, um, you know this is one of the reasons why I write my books in a very popular style, why I don't.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I have a PhD. I could very easily go the academic route, but I I purposefully go this more popular route because I want people to be able to absorb this content in a way that respects where they're at and try to change their life. You know, through stories and argumentation, but fundamentally it comes down to just respecting people and kind of loving them where they are instead of where we hope they are, so that I think that's been the real key for me is, you know, staying in that vision of what is it that God wants. He loves them more than I do. Let's just love them, and that that has been. You know, just incredible fruit has been born in my life on all kinds of levels from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's hard. Sometimes we think that if we get the right intellectual argument or whatever, if we debunk it or if we play Bible ping pong or whatever intellectual argument or whatever.
Speaker 1:If we debunk it or if we play Bible ping pong or whatever like, then then that's going to be okay. But I think what I really liked about what Carrie is saying here and I can even see this in my own conversion like like I could talk about the stack of early church fathers books that the Finnells gave me ultimately, but I would have never have taken those books if they hadn't have loved me well the two years prior to that like as a coach on my super nerdy homeschool robotics team and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:So, there really is just this winning of the human person through love and showcasing the authentic love of the Father. I love that Carrie.
Speaker 2:what are some key things there, Like how do you, how did you show love to your family specifically, Well, one story I will share is with my eldest sister and she was a really tough case and now she's, you know, homeschooling mom of seven and just really amazing. But before that she was very much a working woman. She had her BMW, convertible, like she just was very into the world and her career and all of that, and she I finally got to this point where I was like, you know, I just I'm not going to be the one to help bring her to the church, and so I started praying that she would meet somebody else that would bring her into the church. And she's got this great story about one night she was traveling, she was up in Detroit and she walked into some restaurant to get dinner and she ended up moving three different places in the restaurant. She doesn't even know why, and she ends up sitting at the bar which is totally not her style next to a woman who's smoking. She also hated smoking and the two of them end up becoming great friends. And it turns out this woman worked for the Archdiocese of Detroit. She took my sister to Rome to meet Pope John Paul II. She ended up becoming like her, surrogate mother, all because they sat next to each other at this restaurant in Detroit. So it was this amazing answer to prayer that sometimes it's got to be somebody else that brings our family members into the faith. But yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 2:For me, the big thing about family is just always trying to let them know that you hear them, you love them where they are, you're interested in what they're interested in, you ask good questions. You know questions. I have a whole chapter in my book actually about questions. This is the thing that we always think of. Questions are part of Socrates' shtick. You know ancient Greeks. But if you look at scripture, especially the Gospel of Matthew, almost every chapter Jesus is asking someone a question and it's awesome because he already knows the answer.
Speaker 2:But the questions require people to answer things for themselves, to think about something, and even if you give a bad answer, they give a bad answer. They're going to be thinking about it, like why did I say that? Or maybe I don't really believe that. You know, just as a place it's like a foothold, you know, to start getting people kind of questioning their own thoughts and ideas. Or maybe they don't have a good answer. So I think that and that's a way where you're always you're always going to kind of win with that, because, especially if you listen to what they're saying and you're not trying to jump on it or correct them, you're just open to listening to it and attentive to that, I think that's such an incredible tool that pretty much anybody can use with people around them to really show that you love them and you hear them and you respect what they think and you want to hear more. That goes a long way. People like to talk about themselves, so it's probably the most effective tool I've found thus far.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful. One thing I really appreciate, carrie, that you just modeled for us as well, in addition to questioning, is, I think, if, in evangelization, if there's relationships in our life or our family like the summary of your book even mentions this but like Jesus was the best evangelizer and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like are the agent of evangelization today. Right, not me, but if we want to know what role we are to play, like actually just looking to the gospels, reading those, meditating on those, on the scriptures, and pondering the people in our own life the same way, like you, kind of model what the Lord does and love like the Lord loves, like that can give quite a bit of inspiration if we're struggling with a particular relationship.
Speaker 2:And I think women in particular when you show gentleness and tenderness, it goes so far because and this is what I'm finding in my other work women have been told that they have to sort of express every motion and this is really destructive. So when you have a woman who's actually attentive and listening and engaging and she can be tender and gentle and kind, that speaks volumes to people, because they're not really used to that and I think that's an important aspect that we need. Women in particular need to really like think about in their own lives and ways to integrate that as an expression of who God is and who our lady is and the kind of tenderness that they show towards us. That we need to obviously reflect out into the culture.
Speaker 3:Can I ask you a question about like early vocational life, like marriage, early family? You mentioned something like at Steubenville. You're praying a holy hour. You have this authentic Christian community I'm just seeing the backdrop. You're praying a rosary, going to mass frequently. I don't know if I could speak for everyone, but lots of folks that I know, you know, as they leave their time of formation, perhaps in college, and enter family life, there can be like there can be a real challenge in finding a footing sometimes, like you know, how do I live out my mission amidst my vocation?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:How do I live out, holiness?
Speaker 1:with the new constraints, it can be like recessive, in a way like reclusive even, yeah, and so, and I think I think we can.
Speaker 3:We can err on either side, Like we can kind of abdicate our roles as family, our roles to the family, and like be all a lampstand out in the world. But then we could also go the other way and say like I'm just going to kind of hide under a rock and only be like attentive to my family and I'm just curious like what, what you've felt in your own life, what the Lord has done for you and what advice you might have to people in that season.
Speaker 2:No, I think this is such an important question because I, even after I left Steubenville, you know, I didn't get married until I was almost 35. So I had another 10 years of being single and I was almost 35. So I had another 10 years of being single and I was still front row at church. I was still every, you know, every day at mass, holy hour. I still made still pray the rosary, all those things. I had kind of this routine and you know, it was incredibly fruitful and an amazing gift.
Speaker 2:And then I had four children very close together in age and I just couldn't do all of that Like it. Everything had changed significantly and the other piece was that we had, we had parishes close by so I could get to mass and I, you know, I managed for a couple of years. And then there was, I think, when the fourth one came along, there was just a period where I had to just stop going, cause it was just there was too. It was just a period where I had to just stop going because it was just there was too. It was just too much with all the children and all their ages and, and it was also at that stage, the parish wasn't very friendly to children either, so it was a very. There were all kinds of reasons and then eventually I obviously go back to daily mass, but I had to learn in that time a different way to pray and I think that was one of the things that was really great about just even transitioning into motherhood was there was a lot of time. You know, I nursed all my children, so there was a lot of time in the middle of the night when I was, I would just start praying, then, um, or when, you know, I would lay down with a child when they were going to bed or they were sick or they, you know, needed me.
Speaker 2:Um, just, you know the, the recognition of, first of all, realizing the importance of just being present to my children. That was an incredible gift because I was so used to doing things for people, you know, just realizing that they just need me next to them, you know, they just need me to hold them, that was a great gift and also just an understanding of almost the contemplative life of God, like God just wants me to be near him and I just need God to be near me. You know, that kind of um presence, uh, I think was a great gift. And you know, it's also easy to pray rosary when you're laying down with a sick child or, you know, being present to them in different ways. So, um, being present and praying simultaneously, so that was a, I think, a real school.
Speaker 2:There were about seven years of um me just trying to sort through this and figure this out as as my children were growing and um really trying to keep the spiritual life alive and lively and discerning properly and um, you know, navigating marriage and all of those things. So, yeah, I think the real key is just um being okay with the fact that it's not going to look exactly how it used to look, because it just can't be that way, and not beating yourself up about it, being, you know, gentle and gracious to yourself in the same way you would be with someone else who's stressed. But also, you know, in fact it was funny because at one point I remember going to confession and I hadn't been to confession in a couple of months, which I also used to go every month and I remember the priest saying something to me like well, we make time for things that are important, and I was like, well, I'm hardly getting a shower every day it's hard for me to even get in the shower and be washed. You know, this is not something that I'm. I'm not committing mortal sins, it's not that kind of thing, you know I'm not committing mortal sins, it's not that kind of thing, you know.
Speaker 2:So anyway, it was interesting to just talk to the priest about this and go back and forth about like what's even realistic given some of the states of our lives. And you know, a lot of people have limited amount of help. I had very little help, family was too far and anyway. So I think all of those things have to be taken into consideration and really just pressing into kind of coming to know God in a different way, and certainly through the different ways of suffering. I mean, motherhood is not a walk in the park at all and that was the real lesson too was that he was refining me through these challenges instead of, you know, torturing me. So it was a great lesson, a lot of great lessons in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that I was hearing, and this kind of begins to tie into some of your work with just like who is a woman? You know of both that I'm hearing from you, that you talk. We were talking about when you're talking about how we're evangelizing our family members, but just like leaning into those some gifts of like what some people call the feminine genius and different things like the, the gentleness and everything, and it just the.
Speaker 1:What I was just thinking about was just like how healing my own wife's presence is in our home and I don't remember who I was talking with, maybe it was someone on the podcast, I don't remember. That kind of made the distinction that, like you know, a wife's or a mom's presence like heals and a dad's inspires confidence, like that tends to be like the impact that a kid has of that.
Speaker 1:Within your role as a mother of like do you have any stories of just like how, living out that femininity you've seen like healing within your, with your husband, with your children, anything like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, this is kind of a big, a big question and one that I've been thinking about for a really long time, because I think that it's fair to say that almost every woman in the culture today is is in some space of recovering from feminism. And we, most of us, don't really even know it. And this is part of the problem with feminism is it's tried to put women into a box of the ideal, the ideal woman, which actually mimics what men were. So there's this kind of innate envy that's already there and what is missing is all these attributes of womanhood that we've sort of squashed or said are unimportant. And you know, it's really interesting to look at the history of all this because you can see very definitively when feminism is being created. You know this is the goal like Like men have easier lives because they don't have children and husbands. So we want to be like men, and it's very explicit that this is what's going on. But you also see this language change of the drudgery, the word drudgery the number of times I ran across it in all the feminist literature for the last, especially the last 120, 20, 140 years, is just overwhelming, because there was a real attempt to actually tell women that they ought to be discontent. It was even called the gospel of discontent by the socialists, who were trying to get women to be angry about being women, and that that's what became really politically useful for them. So, without going too deep into that, you know we haven't.
Speaker 2:What we've lost is the sense of what it really means to be a mother, what the good attributes of motherhood and mothering. You know, it's not just for biological women who've had babies, it's a, it's a gift that all women have, and you can see this in little girls especially. They are playing with dolls. I remember being really interested in babies, like around the time I was 10, and then it sort of dropped off, but just kind of fascinated about that aspect of nurturing and caring for others out of us. Like that there's something like you're either OCD or you're a devouring mother, or there's something wrong with you if you want to take care of other people and meet their needs and care for them. You know there's your, your doormat, or something like that.
Speaker 2:So one of the things I've spent a lot of time doing is really trying to help reframe. You know, how do we think about women within this context of motherhood? Because that's what's been suppressed is not just our fertility but also this aspect of being, you know, mothering others and mothering people. It doesn't just have to have a baby, it can be, it can happen in the workplace, it can happen in schools, it can happen, you know, anywhere where people are in need and women have the eyes to see. Like you know, you're kind of dial need and women have the eyes to see, like you know, you're kind of dialed into someone, like okay, that person just needs a smile or some attention or how can I help them? You know, that attitude or that kind of starting place of wanting to be present and help others, I think is very natural to women. But I think it's been very much pushed out of us because we've told that you know, you'll just become a Stepford wife or, you know, doormat you'll, you'll end up with a red bonnet and a red cape and you'll be joining the handmaid's tale fertility cult kind of thing.
Speaker 2:So anyway, I but I know you know my own life I had to actually like grapple with that before I got married because I was very much on this. You know, I was here, I was daily communicant, but I didn't understand the first thing about being a woman because I had just followed the kind of the feminist vision and really was focused on career, and the hard part is is that women don't realize the career focus is easy because we choose those things. What's hard is being open to, like being asked out and, you know, waiting on other people to sort of initiate a relationship. I think that's that's one of the reasons why pursuing a career is so appealing because you don't have to. It doesn't. It's not dependent dependent on another person, um, to sort of make a relationship happen, you know, with a spouse.
Speaker 2:So anyway, um, but yeah, it was really just this incredible journey of realizing that I was very much, um, you know, asserting myself in places. I didn't need to and frankly, I didn't even like doing it, but I just felt like that was what I was supposed to do, um, instead of just again, this idea of being kind and gentle and paying attention to the needs of others. Um, and it came. It was very resounding experience because much of it came from the series of boyfriends that all broke up with me and then married kindergarten teachers and I just thought, what, why? What do they have that I don't have? Because on paper I was supposed to look like this great catch.
Speaker 2:And so it was just this incredible experience of just asking Our Lady to show me, like, what is it? Who am I supposed to be, who am I? And you know, kind of digging through all the muck and just realizing like there's nothing wrong with the desires that I've had but they've been thwarted because I've been told this is not what is going to make you happy. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of. We just have to process that we've been told over and over. You know, I remember being in being in the first grade, being told, you know, I needed to compete with the boys and you know, just very much, groomed into this idea of what, this anemic idea of what womanhood looks like, and then trying to get out of it and trying to help women navigate that I think that's really what my goal has become is to realize that it's not a bad thing to want to put people's needs before your own, to want to put people's needs before your own.
Speaker 1:It's not a bad thing to put other people's needs ahead of your own. That is a really great summary of like what we're discussing here. I mean because that's just like. That's just the pieces of like. It's just sacrifice. Yeah, you know that sacrifice is. You know there's different sacrifices to each kind, in the way that we were designed, in the way that we were built. So I love that. I think that that's an absolutely beautiful testament to the complementarity of men and women. Carrie is there. You know you were discussing a little bit earlier that there is a deep relationship, as you're growing in, with the rosary and with our mother and you talked about consecration, which is awesome as well.
Speaker 1:I think we've talked about consecration before. I think we have. It's been six years. We can't remember everything. So how does some of that, how is disposing ourselves to be at the feet of Mary and to learn from Mary and to be nurtured by Mary, help answer some of these questions, both for women especially, but also for men, and how we I'm sure that we contribute to a lot of the issues within the society. I mean a lot of stuff, james, you already know this to a lot of the issues within the society. I mean a lot of stuff, james, you already know this.
Speaker 1:And, carrie, you've probably read like Religion of the Day from you, mary, or at least heard of Father or Monsignor James, shea, and we've been really big into a lot of the stuff that he does there, but we're seeing a lot of like what the culture does you know, within feminism as well, and how that's shaken through. So how have you seen like a a relate, a deep relationship with Mary being the antidote?
Speaker 2:to a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just first and this is what I'm getting at in my new book specifically is really seeing what the idol is of feminism. Um, and the idol is autonomy. Women want to make their own choices, they want to be able to do whatever they want, and they've been encouraged to do it without husbands and children. And this is a problem is that women's bodies, women's hearts, women's minds are not made for autonomy. You know everything about our body is meant to be in relationship with someone else in one way or another, healthy, ordered ways, and so. But in addition to that, we also have kind of these virtues that go with autonomy. In fact, I talk this is the thing I'm doing with this new book is really focusing on this idea of how feminism has set up a shadow church. It has all of these aspects.
Speaker 2:I think you know you've probably heard Peter Kreef talk about the sacrament of abortion, or abortion being a sacrament for feminism, so that's sort of down the list of things. But in addition, you've got this idol of autonomy, but you also have the emotions that are really part of feminism and the manipulation of emotions and, instead of the theological virtues which we have obviously in the church, faith, hope and charity. Um, faith, hope and love that the theological virtues of feminism are envy, contempt and rage. Um, and part of that goes back to what I was saying earlier about this manipulation of women. And, um, when you have angry women, they're, and women who are alone, they're much easier to control and to manipulate. And this is, you know, you can just really see how the devil has used feminism to isolate women and to put us in this space. You know, you can imagine the woman who's had an abortion, and then she gets her abortions, she gets to 50, 60, 70, and she's trying to, like, take stock of her life, and that's when the accuser will pounce and he'll say you're alone, because it's your fault. Um, you know, he's the tempter. And then the accuser and, um, you know, most of us are not psychologically or emotionally or spiritually able to navigate that well, um, and yet that's kind of become the mode through which that, you know, feminism operates.
Speaker 2:So it's this idea of getting rid of vulnerability so that we can feel like we're strong and independent, and then you bring in all these other emotions that are very negative, and I think this is, you know, the beauty of Our Lady is. She offers this model. You know what is her greatest attribute? It's humility. It's I'm the handmaid of the Lord. It's this constant being in relationship with others, and I think that's just the best way to frame it is feminism is a way to live without God. It's a way to protect people women to protect themselves from vulnerability, check themselves from vulnerability.
Speaker 2:Christianity and Our Lady are the model of opening ourselves up to being vulnerable, to having our hearts broken.
Speaker 2:Every mother is going to have her heart broken, no matter what the experience is.
Speaker 2:On all these different levels and different ways.
Speaker 2:We do all this work and the fruit of it we will never see. So I think that's the beautiful aspect about it is just to really understand what it means to surrender, to be open to God's will, to trust. You know thinking about Our Lady at the foot of the cross, to trust through that moment, those most difficult moments when you you know you're looking at your son on after he's been tortured and you know hanging from a cross, um, you know, thanks be to God, most of us are not going to go through that experience, but you can imagine the things that she thought about. You know his feet, his hands, all those things that she cared for. So I guess that's the contrast. Couldn't be more stark and more easy to see, and I think this is one of the reasons why it just becomes so clear to me that you cannot mix feminism with Catholicism, because of the fact that feminism is built on this idea of control and power and autonomy, and the faith is built on relationship, humility, surrender and love. They're just totally opposite sides of the coin.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right To relate to God. We need to be utterly dependent upon and abandoning into, as opposed to clinging for our own and controlling everything. Grasping at yeah, as you're talking, I can't help but like ponder how does the modern man perpetuate feminism and how can he stand uh against, um the lies that women are being told to, to support our women, um, but then also, how is feminism affecting man?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. Well, maybe I'll start with the last. First, um, the one thing that I've seen feminism do over and over again is silence men. Um and this is really the hard part about it, because um's actually really a beautiful testimony to men that you know, we're now experiencing sort of the Andrew Tate's in the manosphere, that is, I think it's actually just the opposite side of the coin of feminism, because feminism has contempt for men. Andrew Tate and company have contempt for women, so it's not, you know, it's like a bad divorce going on and company have contempt for women. So it's not, you know, it's like a bad divorce going on.
Speaker 2:But the fact that that hasn't happened previously, that it's only happening now and it didn't happen you know, you didn't have these major influencers that were heaping all this awfulness on women tells you how patient men have been. You know that this reaction didn't happen earlier. I think men really want to love their wives and they've been. They've been given very bad advice about how to do that, because women have been the ones that are sort of dictating. The conversation wants to deal with a highly emotional, volatile woman who told who's been told she's a victim and who, um, you know, has been told that her emotions are all, um, you know she can voice all of them. You know there's no, you don't have to contain your emotions or or or sort through them and order them. Um, you know that's a mess to deal with when, in terms of just the viciousness of women, and especially in the public sphere, you know, I think all of us have had experiences of either dealing with narcissists or dealing with women who are vengeful, that you know, sometimes it takes them a long time, but you suddenly, you know they're still after you, like there's this kind of revenge that's still happening.
Speaker 2:No, they're still after you. Like there's this kind of revenge that's still happening, and men just aren't. You know, obviously there are some men that are like this, but it's it's. It's just amazing to see how women's nature has been so twisted to silence good women but also silence good men. It's totally enabled. Bad women and bad men. I mean, that's the the reality of what it is that you know, so much so that we can't even really describe what a good woman is. We can't even describe what a woman is, much less what a good woman is.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a challenge. I think, you know, one of the things that is so hard is that women are so have been groomed by this for so long that we don't even know. You know, we haven't been offered an alternative view of feminism, and so it's very hard for women to get out of it. And you know, there was one man who was just this dear man and he was really struggling with his wife. He was practicing Catholic and she just didn't really want anything to do with it. And you know, at one point I remember him saying, you know, text, sending me a text message my wife is here with all her friends watching the Handmaid's Tale. What do I do?
Speaker 2:And you know, it's just all of this sympathy, but the reality is is it comes back to prayer, it comes back to being a strong man and, you know, even setting kind of boundaries, I mean, obviously in that situation you know you got to just love and pray your wife back into the church because you're you're battling the whole world that has told her this is the what womanhood is.
Speaker 2:But I think that there's a lot of men too that have opportunities to say things, and they could say more, but I, I I guess I always want to be air on the side of being kind towards men, cause I think you guys have been blamed for everything for 50 years, so it doesn't feel like you know, it feels like we can take a bit of the brunt from on the women's side at a certain level. But I think, yeah, just getting to the point where you really understand ordered manhood and you know, even looking into that and having male friends that you can relate to and solidify, you know you can um support one another, those seem like really important aspects of um, of balancing this out in an in an ordered way.
Speaker 3:Can I share a thought that I've I've had reflecting on, reflecting on something of a fellow father shared with me, and see, and kind of get your coaching cause you're better well read and see it on this topic and you've thought deeply for longer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, he sent me a talk by father ripping germ. It was about raising men, just talking about, like raising your boys. But father ripping spent some time talking about effeminacy. Um, towards me, like in the realm of men, and, to be candid, the first, like my general hearing of effeminacy, is more like one of light in the loafers or sexual orientation perhaps, and I'm not trying to be crude, but like I just didn't understand what the word meant. But the way he broke down the word was a fear of discomfort like a fear of not being comfortable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then the analogy he used was he talked about Adam and Eve.
Speaker 3:And so he was just like showing this dichotomy and so, like, before I go into the reflection, I would think it's actually not. We don't want to fall into the temptation of it's man's fault or woman's fault. We actually want to look and say no, the accuser, the tempter and the accuser is the person at fault here. And the way we enter the battle is to play my role, each of us, to play our role well and how God designed us Right. And so, like, what was interesting is I listened to that podcast and I listened to his reflection on Adam.
Speaker 3:Like, okay, look at Adam, he saw that Eve was, you know, in this, in this temptation, he was told to protect Shamar, the garden and his wife, but he preferred her comfort and his comfort over protecting and discomfort, right, and so he chose to let her go and to do that. And what Father Revinger says, when man is effeminate and prefers comfort, do that. And what Father Revinger says when man is effeminate and prefers comfort, well, it's him doing something disordered. Then the woman takes on something disordered to overcompensate.
Speaker 3:And so he says so, then ultimately, she wanted him to protect her, but since he wasn't, she took control and grasped it for herself and, you know, began to buy a lie. And now he, even he, entered a vicious cycle where it was harder and harder to take a stand and his own ability to like, save face or be comfortable.
Speaker 3:Like he just kept being on backwards ground. And so I'm like is would a man choosing to be bold in charity and love and protection and also like shedding his like intentionally shedding his own comforts, be a way that he could sort of like help his wife or the women in his life?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think that's so such a great articulation of it, because all of this does really go back to Adam and Eve. Such a great articulation of it because all of this does really go back to Adam and Eve, and I think that that's the reality, is exactly what you described that when men don't live in a space that might feel or that is uncomfortable doing what it is that they know to do, then she's going to take over. You know, we see this all the time, and I think this is really connected to St Paul saying you know, women submit to your husband because we're capable. This is, you know, anything that we've seen over the last 50 years is just how capable women are at doing good things, at doing things, getting things done. It's not that we're uncapable, it's that it just unseats the order of love, vulnerability and protection when we take over something that we're not meant to take over. And I, you know, I, we all know couples where this dynamic has happened, where the husband's afraid to say something, afraid of being uncomfortable, and I, you know, I will even say as, as Catholics, just it's a call for all of us to really understand that sometimes there's just going to be discomfort, Like you have to. That's part of the surrender of.
Speaker 2:I just had a hard conversation with a friend or you know, other women that I know or what you know, you name it you can't, you're not going to be able to resolve it, and I think this is what we sort of think is nice is if we just have to smooth everything over all the time and that's God's will. But sometimes he really does just want us to be uncomfortable and trust him, knowing that we're doing what it is that we're called to do. In that discomfort, you know. So I think that's a really great way to describe it is just that sense of, yeah, might be uncomfortable the first time and again, ordered men, you know, I mean, there's obviously so much disorder that it makes it very difficult to talk about these things.
Speaker 2:But I love that idea of just getting out of your comfort zone and not trying to just, you know, pacify your wife, but really just doing what you need to do. And if the chips don't go where you think they ought to have gone, don't change course. You know, and I think that's also even sort of Ignatian discernment too you don't, you know, if you've made a decision to do something, you don't change course in the midst of it because it gets hard, you keep going, and that's really where God's will comes out. So, anyway, I think, yeah, that's a great question and just a wonderful way to frame it all.
Speaker 1:One of the things, just like within my own family, one of the one of the virtues that we're wanting to strive for, and a lot of what you're talking about, carrie, of just like desiring comfort over discomfort, and like what you're talking about is like like that. That, uh, that convicts me of just like huh, I should probably I could seek discomfort and like going after things a little bit more often instead of just waiting until it's a comfortable time. But the virtue that my wife and I have been talking about is just magnanimity. It's been a part of my prayer for a lot of it and I kind of see that as just a place to start especially. I don't know what it's like to be a woman, but I know what it's like to be a guy for for guys of just like desiring that and um, if someone hasn't heard magnanimity, define it for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the it's just this overwhelming desire. It's like it's like related to hope in a way. It's like overwhelming desire for the good and like persevering towards it, and like thinking big and moving forward and not and like having a courage in your ideas towards the good.
Speaker 3:It's like a largeness of heart. In some sense it becomes this like crescendo, or elevation of the other theological virtues.
Speaker 1:Yes, and sometimes I just think that, like we just have cowardice instead, because we want to, we want to do it, we want to do things right. Do you guys know what?
Speaker 3:the opposite of magnanimity is I'm going to butcher the word, but it's it's pusillanimity, oh yeah yeah, and so it's like this like pettiness or smallness right and so like what's interesting. Like to stay with us here is like I. Am I interrupting or am I?
Speaker 3:no, no no, so like, if I go to a moment where I'm tempted to be effeminate, right like, and I don't want to like stand and carry the cross that the lord is offering me with courage and love towards my wife, like I'm gonna be little-minded, like I'm gonna complain or be, or. Or I'm going to be little minded, like I'm going to complain or be, or or I'm going to like throw like she might claim yeah, I'm going to be petty about something.
Speaker 3:I'm going to throw an excuse that I have or I'm going to act like I'm not respected over here and that's the reason why I didn't do it. And it's like someone who's magnanimous does not make all these excuses. Someone who's magnanimous is like going after their bride, you know, it's like you know, trying to do, you know, win a big thing for her, right yeah?
Speaker 1:I just think, I just feel like magnanimity doesn't get enough screen time these days so. I'm throwing it out there.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you are. It's actually a really little known virtue. I think, you know, aristotle laid it out and his definition of it is more like, like Winston Churchill. I think you could really, you know, consider magnanimous, like just here's this man that had the sense of his own mission and had this big vision and just went after it, like he knew he was the man for the season, you know, the man for the times of the Second World War, but I've seen it.
Speaker 2:There was a priest I knew who had this sense like, like it was, it really was magnanimity, like he expected great things to happen and they always happened. I mean, it was just this wild, like a New Agers would call it like manifesting or something bizarre, but it was just this utter trust in God's providence and will that he just expected that these things, what things would happen, you know, in beautiful ways, and they always did. And so, anyway, I'll have to think about that. I'm glad you brought it up. I don't feel like I've thought about it enough in this context, but I love that opposition of pulling us out of our complaining and our whininess and our that, the ways in which we kind of feel pity for ourselves. It feels like such an important aspect, because that really is where the spiritual growth happens, because you're then really relying on God's providence in all of those things and seeing what God's doing in those moments and reflecting a mirror on yourself, instead of seeing what God's provision in each of those moments. So thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, no problem.
Speaker 3:I would actually venture to say, like Carrie, you're, you're actually modeling the virtue of magnanimity very well in this place that you're, you're living and you're writing in because it's not exactly popular to take on and so there's this like largeness of heart and confidence in god that like this is true and it's damaged me and other women I love and every all everyone needs to know about it and know the truth of how god ordered the world.
Speaker 3:Like it's sort of what I'm feeling from you as I hear you talk, as I hear your writing, and so I do want to compliment. Well, yeah, it's probably for carrie.
Speaker 1:I mean, carrie could speak to this and we're we're to land the plane sooner rather than later here. But I'm interested in like it probably cuts really deep both ways. Like there's probably everybody who's oh my gosh, this all makes sense, this is truth. I'm really buying into this. And then those of us who's drank the crew lead. I mean, for heaven's sake, there's like there's at least another podcast or maybe blog called the Catholic Feminist, and there's like there's at least another podcast from.
Speaker 1:Maybe Blood called the Catholic Feminist and like we're like adopting and baptizing some of these ideas, you know, and so it's. So there's probably people really, really happy to hear. I mean, she's being invited to the Oklahoma Catholic Women's Conference, one of the best conferences out there. We're a big fan, but then at the same time there's probably opposition to what she's saying and there's probably some persecution that she's having to suffer there too.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's all there. But you know, I think that's been. The beauty of it too is just this, you know, you know, when God has given you a mission and I really have looked back at my life and I've seen the way I've been prepared for this, like even finishing my PhD, which I just thought was. You know why am I doing this? I'm just a mom. I finished it. I actually worked on it in labor and delivery with my third child, my dissertation. I was just determined to get it done. And you know, everybody kept saying you won't finish, or the more kids you have, the less inclined you'll get to get it done. And you know, I invested so much time and energy into this already that I was like it's got, it's got to be done. And I finished it a couple of months after my third child was born.
Speaker 2:But now I even see just how God has been using that. You know, I mean, just if I didn't have that doctorate, I would not have been able to really pinpoint all these philosophical errors and roots, and you know the problems that are just proliferating. And so, anyway it's, it's been really beautiful to see how God has has used that and and you know, prepared me and made it really clear this is what he wants. And, you know, it just feels like a real blessing that that makes it much easier to deal with the persecution because, um, you know it's my eyes are on God and what he's he's asking me to do and prepare me to do, and and and and there's also just an incredible amount of beauty. Uh, that comes from, like all the books that I've written. Just the Holy spirit is so, um, attentive. You know, I I'll find these obscure books and I'm like I don't even know how I found this and this is exactly what I needed.
Speaker 2:And just now, look at this and now look at that, and just all these pieces that weave together in ways that I never would have dreamed of. So I think there's those aspects, too, that are just incredible confirmations and gifts. And then you hear about marriages that have been restored and you hear about children that are born, you know, from these kinds of things, and so it makes everything feel, you know the challenges. It makes them feel like they were all worth it, because you know that people are being healed and moved into a place of, of, of blessedness and giftedness, instead of just grasping it. You know what world selling. So there's a lot of really amazing gifts that come, you know, because of, or maybe in spite of, or because of the challenges.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. Well, Carrie, it's been absolutely great having you here today on Red Dirt Catholics.
Speaker 2:Where can?
Speaker 1:our listeners find and hear more about you and your work.
Speaker 2:So the best place is either my personal website, which is kerrygresscom, or my blog, which is theologyofhomecom, and that's. We have a. My colleague, Noelle Mehring, and I have a blog that goes out five days a week for women just content that we know we like and we'd love to share with women, to start helping women get a better, like a fresh space that isn't going to try to indoctrinate women in the feminist narrative, but into something just really healthy. It's sort of like drinking clean water after you've been in the desert, so that's really the goal there, but that's the best place to see what we're up to also.
Speaker 1:Very good Well uh this has been Red Dirk Haskins. Did you have anything else? And we'll, uh, we'll see you guys next time. Thank you.