Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Real and Intentional Community (ft. Josh Paiement)
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In this episode, Jayce and James are joined by Josh Paiement to discuss authentic community from its theological roots to practical application in our parishes and ministries. Building real community means moving beyond surface-level gatherings to sharing our authentic selves with one another.
• Community finds its origin in the Trinity as the original communion of persons
• The root word "communio" combines "with/together" and "gift/service" – pointing to communion as mutual contribution
• Authentic community goes deeper than social activities to real relationship and vulnerability
• Josh shares his step-by-step approach: meet individuals, befriend them, introduce to others, help them integrate
• Taking off our "masks" and being vulnerable is essential but challenging for community building
• A major pitfall is the "hot tub mentality" where communities become comfortable but closed and sterile
• True community naturally leads to mission – without outward focus, communities stagnate
• We need both "breathing in" (receiving formation) and "breathing out" (mission) for healthy community
• Personal invitations and investments matter more than large events or programs
We invite you to reflect on your own approach to community. Are you keeping people at a surface level, or allowing yourself to be truly known? Consider one relationship you could deepen this week by taking a small step toward greater vulnerability.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
Welcome back to Red Dirt Catholics. My name is Jace. This is James Ryder. Oh, I messed it up. I absolutely messed it up. And this is Josh Payment. We're excited to have you guys. Have I never introduced you? I don't think so. Wow, things are changing.
Speaker 4:I'm a big fan of the show, long time listener. Honored to be here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Josh, you're from Cal Oregon.
Speaker 4:I'm from Eugene Oregon.
Speaker 3:Eugene Oregon. Second guest in a row from Eugene Oregon.
Speaker 4:Also the second most famous one, for sure. Dr, Carrieary Grass is also from Eugene Oregon.
Speaker 2:I did not know her, but I am also from Eugene. Did you know what parish?
Speaker 4:she went to. I didn't. Honestly, listening to that podcast was the first time, I think, I realized that she was from Eugene.
Speaker 3:Whoa, Now did you grow up and like kind of flirting with occultism and things like that too.
Speaker 4:No, I didn't. New age Also, my story is certainly less epic than hers. It was like new age, not as epic a story as Dr Kyrgios.
Speaker 2:You're right. Have you guys gotten much into AI these days?
Speaker 4:Like what are you using it for? Honestly, within the last couple weeks, I've gotten into more of it.
Speaker 3:Really. Yeah, I've played with it, but I have mixed feelings.
Speaker 2:Tell me about your mixed feelings mixed feelings um okay we joked about this when I sent out an email for the podcast. Right, so we were. We were like getting things done. We had like this really productive, like four hour podcast planning session and we needed to write an email to carry grass. And I was like dude, just like throw it into ai say email, carry grass, blah, blah, you'll be done. And and then I like read the email and it was like really heartfelt and really thoughtful and I was like James did not have AI do that, so my experience is, when I ask AI to do something, I'm like I have the same expectations of AI that I have of myself.
Speaker 3:I'm like, dude, like why'd you write it this way? And I just rewrite the whole thing anyway if I were to do it. So that's fair. So then I have this friction in my mind, like certain softwares. It's like I'm not always logged in or whatever, and I was like it'd just be simpler for me to just think critically and do the thing and I'm, instead of logging into some other software.
Speaker 4:I'm sure I'm missing all sorts of opportunities, but yeah, I've heard of people who seem to use it pretty well, where you kind of have to really train and condition the, the AI as well, which I don't think I do as much Like I like ask a question, like I would basically search it in Google, which seems like it's not making the most of the AI software. Whatever be like.
Speaker 2:Oh no, you need to like give it exactly the context and like what it is, what knowledge it has, within what framework and tone that you're going for yeah, it's a new tool to figure it all out and in fact, avery uses AI for the podcast, I'm pretty sure for a lot of different things, but Avery's favorite or Avery was showing me I was using I think I was using like Copilot or something the other day and I was talking about how cool it was and Avery was like rookie, you chump producer Avery was.
Speaker 2:He was like you don't even use perplexity. What's wrong with you? Why aren't?
Speaker 3:you using perplexity. That's apparently cool. You're using perplexity Apparently perplexity.
Speaker 2:what makes it great is that it combines search engine with the AI algorithm, whereas, like other ones don't necessarily do that. So it searches really well and like sources, your stuff, oh, interesting. But the reason why I asked is I took pictures of both of you just now.
Speaker 4:Without permission. Without permission, I would like to know, perfectly candid.
Speaker 2:And I found out that AI has a roasting feature, and I have been using it a lot. I've roasted myself, my wife, my friends, and then sent them those roasts. The only person who hasn't heard the roast that it made of them was Peter. It was really funny, too, of what it did. So we're going to start with James, and this is spooky accurate.
Speaker 3:Okay, whoa Spooky accurate, like maybe part of it's spooky accurate Parts of the roast, not sure.
Speaker 4:What it was able to deduce just from the picture is somewhat spooky. Yeah, for sure, yeah, just based on a picture.
Speaker 2:I was like James is getting sensitive over here from the AI roasting of him. All right, let's roast him. This man looks like he just found out. The podcast he's recording is actually a group therapy session for microphones. He's dressed like he sells real estate and conspiracy theories on the side. Now this three bedroom comes with granite counters and proof the moon landing was staged. That thoughtful pose. That's the face of a guy trying to remember if he left the stove on or if it's just the heat from all the hot takes. He's not delivering and let's not ignore the cup. It's the most expressive thing in this photo. No, not expressive, I read it wrong.
Speaker 4:You read it wrong. Oh, it was funnier when you said expensive. Well also, expressive is also funny Give them some feedback.
Speaker 3:but expensive is hilarious, but expressive is funny too. Expressive is true, it is actually kind of expressive it is.
Speaker 2:Even it looks like it wants to be anywhere else.
Speaker 4:See the real estate thing that I was able to pick up. That was a spooky part for sure. Yeah, I mean, how does it?
Speaker 3:pick that up? Is it because?
Speaker 2:like do you have the look? Is it just because you're handsome and you're wearing a polo?
Speaker 4:No shot I don't know that seems crazy. How then or?
Speaker 3:did they like see my profile picture on LinkedIn in the background and they were doing facial recognition software stuff Like should I be the conspiracy theorist that they're claiming me to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you just proved it right again. You know what?
Speaker 4:James, I wouldn't say you sell conspiracy theories but you enjoy conspiracy theory conversation. He dabbles.
Speaker 3:I enjoy Joe Rita's commentary on conspiracy theories.
Speaker 4:I mean, no one beats Joe Rita's conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2:Very, very good. All right, now we got Josh Bring it. This man man looks like he's recording a podcast titled vests and very serious opinions, sponsored by lukewarm takes and that yeti tumblr he's clearly emotionally attached to. He's got the expression of someone who just got asked a question he was absolutely not prepared for, like what's your opinion on quantum physics? And he panicked because he thought quantum was a new crossfit class, the lighting rig above him. It's not for the podcast, it's for the interrogation he's about to face for owning five identical Gingham shirts. How many Gingham shirts do you own?
Speaker 4:Well, I said identical, but I probably own three or four Gingham shirts, different colors, though Not identical.
Speaker 2:Also, sir, if your iPad, has more personality than your microphone delivery. We might need to mute you for your own safety.
Speaker 4:I appreciate what was the best and very serious opinions.
Speaker 3:That's a good podcast name this goes well, with my own, I need to bring it up on my own.
Speaker 2:That would be my podcast. I guess the first Red Dirt Catholic spinoff.
Speaker 4:The first spinoff, vests and very serious opinions.
Speaker 3:That'd actually be kind of fun. You send out the email inviting a guest and it's like one requirement you've got to wear a vest.
Speaker 4:Bring your best vest.
Speaker 2:You have different vests every time, like puffer vest or, like you know, or a life vest. There's lots of vests out there.
Speaker 3:So what did the AI think about Jace?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then we had mine. At first it said, oh, this one is too easy. Oh cool, this guy looks like he just told the camera let's circle back on that and then wrote it down in his manifestation journal like it was a business plan, which is funny, because this book, because this note-taking book, is actually like the Atomic Habit tracker thing, so like it's not manifestation but kind of close.
Speaker 3:I wonder how much of that stuff it read. You know what do I have in here.
Speaker 2:This is my notes from Father Jerome's retreat that he did for the Pastoral Center. So I probably didn't.
Speaker 2:He's got the proud smile of someone who just figured out how to export a PDF and is about to start a YouTube channel to teach others. The rolled-up sleeves say I'm ready to work, but the perfectly clean notebook and untouched Apple Watch scream. I'm still waiting for inspiration to hit and let's not ignore that lighting. He's lit like a prophet, about to deliver the least revolutionary TED Talk of all time. Why smiling during Zoom calls boosts morale. Wow. And I hope all of you use these powers that I have bestowed upon you.
Speaker 4:Which basically calling you out of. You just learned how to export a PDF and then doing a YouTube on it. You found out that AI can roast you. And that's how we're starting to find out. Knows you well.
Speaker 2:Dang Got you. That's crazy. Ai is some scary stuff, but we're going to be talking about community today, which is a much. It's a buzzword at this point community, especially amongst young adults today. Oh, I'm just looking for my community, oh where's my community? And different things like that. So we're excited to kind of dive into the nuts and bolts with that. James, would you open us in a prayer?
Speaker 3:Absolutely In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen, come, holy Spirit. Lord, as we talk about community today, I ask that you can give ourselves and our listeners the grace to move from kind of a theoretical knowledge of the topic all the way into a way of applying this into their own lives, but also for us to be able to kind of reflect, like where I'm already trying to live community well or live out friendship or mission well, like have a moment of reflection and examine and look at this, Lord, how you would look at the relationships we have and the opportunities there within. We pray that our conversation, the thoughts of these listeners, will bring many souls into your sacred heart. In your name, we pray, amen.
Speaker 1:These listeners will bring many souls into your sacred heart, in your name we pray Amen.
Speaker 2:So when I first asked Josh to join us on this episode about building community I'm pulling up his text right now what his response was to that, just so that we all know the expert that we have. Yes, I appreciate temper and expectations. It's good. I appreciate temper and expectations oh man, alright, we texted too much, but I thought it would be easier to find. But essentially he said I don't know what I have to offer to that, but sure I'd love to do.
Speaker 3:That's true speaking of what you have to offer. Like Josh, where are you from other than eugene oregon?
Speaker 2:I should. Why should we listen to you?
Speaker 3:what's the, what's your experience?
Speaker 4:well, I still stand by the fact that I'm I would not claim myself as an expert on community, but yeah, from eugene oregon. I'm born and raised there, grew up catholic, cradle catholic. I went to k through 12 catholic school. When it comes to my faith, it was definitely something that was present but wasn't something that necessarily had some deep impact in my life on the day to day. I really enjoyed especially going to Catholic high school, leading, going on retreats and leading retreats and actually got a lot of joy and fulfillment from that. But it was. It was somewhat surface level, for sure. Um, athletics was a huge part of my upbringing. My three older sisters that all were great athletes. My dad was a great athlete and played college athletics as well, so I was a multi-sport athlete at high school. After high school, I went to a small university in oregon to play football and it was really then, going into my freshman year, I played receiver receiver in college.
Speaker 2:What was your 40 time?
Speaker 4:Oh, that I cannot tell you. I was more of a possession receiver. I wasn't the fastest Blue guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, locker room guy Big locker room guy.
Speaker 4:Student of the game.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Does the little things? Does the little things Gritty After my playing career.
Speaker 2:Things that every sportscaster says about a white athlete on the floor.
Speaker 4:And I will take all of them. And I say all of them as well. After my college sports career, I actually went into coaching, so I do. I really love athletics and yeah. I'm a student of the game, if you will.
Speaker 2:Who's your favorite position receiver?
Speaker 4:My favorite position receiver. Well, right now, I just have white receivers in my mind, now that you've called them out, wes.
Speaker 2:Welker is great, wes Welker he's from.
Speaker 4:Oklahoma there we go.
Speaker 2:He went to Heritage Hall. That's right, Wow.
Speaker 4:I didn't know that. That's pretty great, reggie.
Speaker 2:Wayne is a black possession receiver. Just so that you know that it's not exclusive.
Speaker 4:That's true, larry Fitzgerald, he comes to mind. He was great, larry Fitzgerald. He comes to mind. He was great, larry Fitzgerald. Yeah, yeah, he was pretty good His hand.
Speaker 2:Have you seen a picture of his hands? Are they huge?
Speaker 3:They were huge Like and DeAndre Hopkins ones was too. One thing I want you to keep your story going, but one thing that I do want to say that I think I think Josh has a gift and I challenge listeners, if you're gifted here, it's a missing capability in the church, but Josh really is talented at coaching, and so the ability to understand a spiritual concept and have it coached to you really quite a great gift. So I think he's selling us short, but we'll see where it goes. But continue, I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 4:Let's see, freshman year went off to college and I wasn't going to mass. I always believed in God, went off to college and I wasn't going to mass. I never. I always believed in God and you know, growing up in the faith, I would say I knew things about God and Catholicism but definitely didn't have that encounter where I knew him personally. So my first couple of years of college I just wasn't living out my faith life and I was living college life as an athlete. I also joined a fraternity. It was a small school again in Oregon, so I was an athlete and in a fraternity.
Speaker 4:But I was just living those first couple of years the college life up to the extent that I was supposed to. That I thought I should in terms of just expanding my wings socially and that sort of thing. But then I got injured my sophomore year I wasn't playing that much in college and I got injured and ended up transferring out of that small school and going to a bigger state school, oregon State and it was during that transition where I kind of had this recognition that I thought I was living college life the way I was supposed to, now being off on my own. But I'm just feeling really empty and not fulfilled and it was really, I think, the Lord obviously pursuing me in a grace and moment for me to have that realization. And then the first thought was I should probably start going back to mass. So the Oregon State Newman Center has an awesome Newman Center. They have a religious order of priests and nuns, the St John Society and the Society of Mary, and it was through that Newman Center of going back to mass, being a part of one of their ministries, where I kind of got plugged into that community.
Speaker 4:And it was on a retreat that they put on called the Holy Spirit Weekend, where I think it was the first time that I could remember of really having someone talk about who the Holy Spirit is, how he moves in our life. And I went to confession for the first time in probably five or six years and there was Eucharistic adoration. I got prayed over and I can remember one of the retreat leaders bringing me up to the front during adoration and putting their hand on my shoulder and just in that moment, feeling this sensation of warmth from their hand resting on, settling in my heart and just looking at the monstrance and really having that moment of of true encounter of that is Jesus and and he is living and desires to be the central part of my life. So that was kind of that moment, my junior year, where I made the decision that I believe this would be true and I want it to be central in my life.
Speaker 4:But then, after graduating and then I went to get my master's in teaching back down in Eugene at the University of Oregon and it was through meeting the Focus missionaries there that I think it was through their witness they just had this authenticity and joy and the friendship they had with one another and their investment in me. It was through their witness, being a part of their Bible studies, going to Focus's conference at SEEK that year down in Texas, that I think I had heard really for the first time, or able to receive it, the universal call to holiness and the universal call to mission and that really set my heart on fire to the point where then I became a missionary and this is now finishing up my eighth year with Focus. I've served on campuses in California and Colorado and then in various other department roles to be able to expand the reach and supporting Focus, now remotely. So that's me. I met my wife through Focus. She was a Focus missionary and we've been in Oklahoma now for coming up on three years.
Speaker 2:Did you say how many kids you had?
Speaker 4:No, we got three. We have twin, twin four and a half year olds boys, and then a two and a half year old boy, John, Charlie and Andrew. It's a lot of fun. Are they starting school next year? We're going to be just homeschooling the boys because they're October birthdays, so they're kind of a little bit young, but we'll be fun, Nice, Great.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, heck, yeah, so when you were a missionary. Well, actually, one step before we go into some of the more of the practicals, like where does community come from? Like where why do we? Why is it even a word? Like how do we know it exists? Like what happened there.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, I would with with literally everything that comes in existence. It comes in existence because of god, and when we think about god as being one god but three persons, we see the trinity as the original image of communion, and it's from that that then we come into being. And when we think of, in genesis and god creating the world and specifically creating, creating adam, and saying that it's not good for man to be alone, so it's out of it's out of a communion of persons that we even come into being, so to be able to see that that's that model, that's what we're made for. We're made for relationship, and the church even talks about how the innermost nature of man is as a social being and that man cannot live nor develop his potential if he is not in relationship with other people. So when you think just about community from that sense, as a really just sort of baseline definition of it, is this interpersonal relationship of, of beans which finds, I would say, its source, and in the trinity, first and foremost I love that.
Speaker 3:I don't know that I would have began there, but I'm really glad we began there. You know it's such a beautiful spot. Like one reflection on it just while you're talking, is the other place like I look at like community as a good model. It's modeled after the trinity, is like family right, and so I'm looking at, I'm thinking with about what you just said about the trinity, but like the question I have a little bit just as we head off into the discussion, is like would it be fair to say that like authentic community?
Speaker 3:like a requirement for authentic community is that it bears fruit, just like from those two examples, because like if you look at like if community ought to be modeled after the Trinity, like if we just think of the definition of the persons, right, like the father so loved the son that they, that like the Holy Spirit springs out from them, right, I'm just like kind of contemplating, like there's obviously like an inner life within the Trinity and then there's like a life that goes beyond the Trinity, right. And all three of the persons do it differently, but even within the Trinity of itself, like there's a new life produced from it, just like in family.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I think that's so true, james. And even thinking, when we go to the first paragraph of the catechism, of God being perfectly blessed in himself and then an act of sheer goodness creates man, where St Thomas Aquinas will talk about this phrase, that the goodness naturally diffuses itself. Where God, the Trinity, isn't lacking in anything but it is perfect goodness, and goodness then must wants to be shared. It ought to diffuse itself. Now, god didn't need anything, so he needed to create something and someone more in particular, to be able to actually be a recipient of that goodness. So to that point that authentic love is naturally fruitful in nature.
Speaker 2:Fruitful in nature and like the other thing that I think you said it, but I want to highlight it again is that, like we're created in the image of God and so, like this basic, like you talked about it, like the type in the family, the type of it within our very lives, and this isn't like like the type in the family, the type of it within our very lives, and this isn't like community is such like a loaded church term and a lot of people can just use the word community to describe different things.
Speaker 2:And the more that we pay attention to what the original community within the Lord and within the Trinity, it just communicates to me depth that I don't think is necessarily the first thing we think of. A lot of the time when we think of community, like we think of kind of like the you know, the greater community, like the collective, we, the all of us the rah-rah, the humans and all of that stuff. But just like hearing Josh say those things, it just like is reconvicting me that community requires depth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I love that you're saying depth.
Speaker 3:Like part of me is pondering the other things because sometimes, like when we first primed community, there's like a mixture of images in my mind, like this group of people in my life where we're like coming closer together, we have a lot of shared beliefs and identities and maybe even like friendship, of proximity kind of stuff, like we're involved in some of the same things.
Speaker 3:And then there's like another group and that I'm like really intimate with and we're comfortable with each other, and it's like in some sense I'm looking at that like I'm building community here so that maybe it brings this, but, depending on the day, I might define them both as community, as like an equal thing. But like if we're staying high level with the Trinity, like I'm contemplating, like if I was just looking at that bigger group of people where we've got all this shared identity and stuff, um the, the feelings or aspects of that that I might take note of on, like why it's good for me is like it brings me joy, like these are these iron sharpens, iron, like different things like that. But like if I stay really high level with the trinity, it's interesting. I'm hearing things like, um, sacrifice. I'm hearing things like intimacy.
Speaker 3:I'm hearing things like giving yeah, what else are you guys like if you think of the trinity as our type for community? Like, what are the qualities of the trinity? The Trinity.
Speaker 2:It's just like yeah, love like and love like, motivating everything you know not like unselfish intimacy yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's so true. I think you can see, you know us as being like to even start with community as a felt need of every person, and it's not even like a theological reality, uh, in terms of religious, but it's more of just a natural anthropological reality, because we are created at in to hold things in common. But what we're talking about is you can have different types of community, like every even a secular person will desire to have to share something in common with other people, because ultimately that's how we are wired Right. Um, but even going beyond, when you think of community you can think of it as like, oh, holding things in common, the short of shared reality.
Speaker 4:But it was interesting, as I was preparing for the podcast, just looking more into it, when you look at where the word communion and community they share the same root word in Latin, which is communio, and in Latin the com means with or together, and then munius means gift or service. So you have with together or gift or service. So the word, the root word of community and communion, which is the same, literally means with shared gifts or this fellowship of mutual contribution mutual gift which, again, is modeled first and foremost in the Trinity.
Speaker 4:But I think there can be this tendency to just only see it as what you're kind of getting at, james, of what does this community bring to me versus what am I being asked to bring to this community. And really I think we can see the first when it comes to what's the what's made, the first authentic image of community just within the context of man, you know, going away from the Trinity as the source and model.
Speaker 4:I think, looking at the first Christians in the early church, you see this, you see that first community where they held things in common.
Speaker 2:But it was this authentic depth of community that we were talking about we're almost getting too smart for me, this authentic depth of community that we were talking about. We're almost getting too smart for me to follow you guys, so I'm going to bring it back to the practicals of some of that stuff. Like, I think all of that is important for us to note from the beginning of what we mean, if it's internal and external, I think when we were talking about this over a beer the other night, you're talking about like it's like breathing almost inhaling and exhaling.
Speaker 2:There's pieces of all of that, but like okay, great, we talked about the fancy, nerdy parts of community.
Speaker 3:But like what does it?
Speaker 2:actually mean Like what does a community look like? And maybe start with like what isn't community? What do we not mean?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think I think what the probably the biggest start that I would, the place that I would start would be that community is, is a need, but community is not an end in itself. Community is a need felt by every person to be able to have people that have shared desires, shared worldview. They share things in common and again we see that in the early church, in Acts first and foremost, where it says they share the things in common. But there's also meant to be this place where we're meant to get to this level of this deep intimacy and union with others, to be able to have this sharing of life. That's not just meant to only be what are the things?
Speaker 4:Community is not just a thing that I do and to be able to say I think you can. Even, maybe the way I would think about it too, is posing the question of when someone says, oh, I have a really good community, what are they actually? What do they actually mean by that, and does it actually describe an authentic community? My sense is and I've experienced this that when someone says I have a really good community, oftentimes they're going to be describing the types of activities that they do with this group of people. So it's more of oh, I have a consistent group of friends that have shared social activity together, which again isn't a bad thing. We need those things. But if I only view it as an end that I have shared spiritual activity with this group of people.
Speaker 2:When I do things, I do them with others every single time, which we talked about in, like the science of happiness thing, that like that's. That is important, not not the end. Um in and of itself, so that's important, um to to drill into. So it's not so if it's not just people hanging out, what is?
Speaker 4:do you have thoughts?
Speaker 2:that's why I asked the question I.
Speaker 4:I don't know. I turned to James. You asked the question. I turned to James.
Speaker 3:I mean, I kind of go back to the fruitful standpoint and like the first principles, like what is life for right? So if I'm functionally to, if the goal is to be with God for eternity and all of my life is to be coming closer to him, well then, like the fruit of community would either like or the community or this grouping of people ought to either be ordered to, and probably both the salvation of the people within it and then growing closer to God and then bringing more people into that. It's interesting. I've kind of challenged I think I've said it on the podcast before, but I felt convicted by it Like in Acts when it talks about like in those days they were and list the conditions of discipleship the community described there like the living in common, like the thing that I think about is like the presupposition were in the Acts of the apostles, so like these people that were living in community were living out an apostolic life.
Speaker 3:You know, and so I'm answering your question in a roundabout way but what I feel like if it gets to authentic community, it's about growing in a relationship with Christ, like if we're living out authentic community and bringing other people into it or at least ordered to that right and think to your, to your point. Like different types of community, even the ones I described, like I might be intentionally like trying to build community with these folks of people here, if I don't have in my heart like a desire that they and I grow closer to god in this process, um it just, it isn't a spiritual community necessarily. It's more of like a tribal, like relational thing than it would be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's still a material good for you and for and for the others, and the thing that I would put into the backdrop. I like what you're saying, like ultimately, it's like a community is a group of people who, and how we would describe like authentic Catholic community, as a group of people who are worshiping together, who are investing in one another super deep and also have a mission moving forward. One of the things that like what to illustrate what we mean by like investing super deep. I'm pretty sure we've talked about this book on the podcast before, but it's called True Friendship by John Kudback, where it talks about, like, the three main kinds of friendship, the first one being probably actually.
Speaker 2:I would be curious what the most common one technically would be. It's considered like the first rung of this one is just like a pleasure-based relationship, where you do stuff because you like it and that other person likes it. Like an example of that would be like the poker group that I was in for a long time of, just like we're all.
Speaker 2:We were all hanging out. There wasn't anything wasn't a whole lot deeper than that and we would we would randomly like start talking about deeper things, but it was mostly I was there to take their money and win um and uh, and so it's just kind of like. Or if you just like play video games with a certain particular person, that's the main way you do it. Or if I were to like disc golf or something, and then we have the utility, friendship of utility, where it's like, and I would reckon, like James and I, you and I kind of started in that space right Whenever Jim like texted us both and said you guys are doing a podcast during COVID, figure it out Like. First it was like, well, I guess we're, I guess we're friends now as we were going through the podcast. Obviously we we developed from there.
Speaker 2:But utility is just like someone has something to offer to somebody else, Like I'm friends with. I told Danielle the other day I was like Danielle, what's the point of being the one of the poorest families in our Catholic school if we don't have a friend who has a boat? Like we gotta find one. And that was a joke, but it was really. It was a really funny way of saying like, just like looking for someone who can like help us and like do something, or someone who is a good networker and will like get you ahead in your career, and different things like that.
Speaker 2:But it's utilitarian, whereas the end, which also has a lot of roots in Aristotle, is virtuous friendship. It's friendship where there's sharing of the very self, there's challenging, there's the deepest of love or the willing of the good of the other over yourself. It transitions. This friendship transitions from, like you, consuming a service essentially, or being where you are purely receiving, in a sense, and receiving mutually, but still both just receiving, where there's a, both a mutual giving and taking within that. I think that that's important to have as a context.
Speaker 3:Is there also a friendship of proximity? Was that the first one, or is that making?
Speaker 4:that up, you're making it up.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's friendship of utility. And then what was your first one? Pleasure, pleasure, okay.
Speaker 2:Proximity. It was something that was thrown around a lot too, especially on a college campus with, like the dorms and stuff okay, yeah, for sure, but that'd probably be like utility in some sense, like I work with this person and so we're friends.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think that's a really great framework because I think it can similarly be applied to community, and I think what you even touched on it's not to say that any of those friendships are wrong or bad in and of itself. We need those types of relationships and even with community, the community can fill some of those just natural, felt human needs that we have. But the challenge comes in when we see a community that is maybe geared more towards pleasure or more towards utility, as this is the authentic form of community, and I think within the church we're going to have this natural community of your parish, first and foremost, and the things you're participating in. You're going to go to them because they're fun or they're providing something beneficial and formative to you, but you want to get to the point where you have this authentic shared community. That's ultimately about willing the good of the members in it, but I think also within the context of community, and I think the piece of friendship is a really great thing to Call out, because community and friendship are not the same thing. Community can create the playing field for friendship to develop. I can have.
Speaker 4:A community also is not like closed off, and we see this in the early church where, after when, it describes the first Christians and it's describes what they committed themselves to. In Acts, chapter two, and then at the very end of that, in Acts two, verse 47, it says in the Lord added to their number each day. So the community is also growing. Like the community doesn't reach this threshold of we're at max capacity. So, while community won't have limits on the members, obviously I have a limit on how many virtuous friends I can have so to be able to have within community.
Speaker 4:You want to be able to have deep, authentic, virtuous friendships that are being developed out of the community. But I would say, if a community isn't actually facilitating those things or in some ways can be unintentionally maybe even distracting away from those types of friendships, because I can have this false sense that I'm known by these people. They might know me by name and I might see them consistently, but do they actually know my heart? Do they know my story? Do they know what I'm experiencing? I might be receiving spiritual content from this community, which is good and formative, but do I have people that I'm receiving spiritual accompaniment from in the midst of it? And I think those sort of questions are what's helpful to distinguish between where we want to be in the community and where we want it to be leading towards.
Speaker 2:So, in a practical way, how do we started like what do you? What do you do? How do you build this? How do you build this ethereal thing of community where it's like it's this but it's not this and it's this and you, you, you love the people and you spend the time and then you know well, what is what?
Speaker 2:does it just actually look like like, say, like you're at, say, monica's right like if you were to go and maybe maybe you've already done this Like, how do you go about creating a community and what would you want to do?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Coach us coach, coach, a coach. Yeah Well, maybe I was just reflecting, maybe I'll share a little bit of my experience on campus and some different ways, of the different individual men that I was building friendship with and then I think, kind of how I saw them developing and being integrated into the community and I think what we're kind of talking about. So you know, zooming out a little bit, when we think of there are always the sort of phases to the Christian life and the Christian walk. When we think of the US Conference of Bishops with the Living and Missionary Disciples, they lay out that path of encounter, accompany, community and send. Pope Francis praying for his soul, I think his encyclical Joy of the Gospel is incredible and I think it will be one of those things that will definitely stand the test of time. And how he lays it out is this idea of encounter, accompany and then sending of spiritual field of evangelizers In focus.
Speaker 4:We call it the method modeled by the master. We say win, build, send, which is helpful to say like those are meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. They're meant to describe phases of the journey. They're not meant to be like a formula. It's much more of. It's not like A squared plus B squared equals two squared. It's more of like the scientific method. It's helpful for us to have this framework and method but to be able to allow for the actual living out of it to be Very unique. So I think within that context, we're kind of zooming in on Like what's the encounter in a company Phase of walking with people, or what's the the win phase that we talked about in focus, and I think first, the first step is you have to go out and meet the individual. You need to actually have eyes, to be looking for people that you don't yet know and you need to go and meet them and introduce yourself to them.
Speaker 4:Head on a swivel. I met them all after mass at random times. I saw them in mass. I saw that I hadn't really seen them before. They weren't coming around. They look like young, athletic, attractive guys which I wanted to hang out with more because it makes me look better. So they were just kind of guys no in reality.
Speaker 4:I mean, the most present thing is to want to ask the Holy Spirit to be able to convict your heart and then also ask the Holy Spirit to guide your gaze. Even so, those were guys where I just went up and introduced myself and I said, hey, I'm Josh, I haven't seen you here before and just started a conversation. So to be able to meet first and then after that you want to be able to, I would say, befriend them. So after you meet them, to actually get to know them, to do something, after you have met them, to be able to exchange their number. Jason, for example, I was getting to know him a little bit. He's from California. I was talking oh, I'm a missionary here, I'm from Oregon, really excited to be here. What are some things you like to do? Oh, I love to go surfing. It's like great, I've never been surfing before, but we just bought a surfboard. My team and some others are going to go surfing this weekend. Would you want to come with us? And it was within that context that then he came with us. I picked him up, he taught me how to surf, I got to know him and he was able to. I was able to get to know him more and his story, and he was also to have this glimpse of the other friendships that were present within the community. With Omar, I learned that he liked to play pickup basketball. So I just said like, oh you know, I have my shoes. I would love to go play pickup with you as well.
Speaker 4:With Daniel, I just took him out to lunch so to be able to meet them first, to be able to exchange contact and then to be able to befriend them, to get to know them a little bit. And then I think you want to be able to invite them to something as well, and to invite them to something that is, again, them meeting some other people from the community as well. So, like for Jason, for example, to invite him to us going to the beach on that one Saturday. For Omar, I was inviting him over to my apartment. We were playing super smash bros and I knew that other guys that were more involved in the Catholic community there would be there, so he'd be able to meet other people. So with the invite, then there's the introduce. Like you need to be able to connect this person that you have now met first and befriended. You want to be able to introduce them to other people in the community so that they can start to get to know them, so that they can now be known by the people that are already established in the community.
Speaker 4:And then I think the next piece, or sort of the last piece of that, is then to integrate them into the community, and I think that's a part that is a little bit more challenging and takes a little bit more of an art. And I think the way you'll see it is when they are now so for at UCLA they would do student masses after dinner, which is a great practice that you know a lot of Newman centers do, which is always great when you have free food and college students that it's going to keep them, it's going to keep them after, and at first you know I'm meeting them or I'm or I invite them. I'm hungry, I going to keep them after, and at first you know I'm meeting them or I'm or I invite them. I'm hungry, I know it is lunchtime, like for those guys, I would invite them like, hey, you know, after every Sunday night master's always student dinner. We'd love for you to come there and they would. And when they would come, then I would make sure that I'm the one that's saying hi to them and I'm kind of walking with them through the line and introducing them. But then at you go to the student dinner and they're sitting with a completely other group that you're not at and now they're getting to know that group.
Speaker 4:Another integration was you know, I'm leading my small group Bible study with other men and I'm able to introduce these guys that I met individually with the other established guys in the Bible study and they start building a friendship.
Speaker 4:Some of them became roommates. They were hanging out with each other on the weekends, like they're forming these authentic friendships that are centered around the christian community. And integration for those guys was they're very athletic. They weren't gonna become like student leaders, you know, at the newman center, but they were the first ones to start a newman center intramural sports team and that was how they integrated in the community and they were also then able to invite other people from the community that had been staples to be able to come on the kickball team or the basketball team or the softball team, so to be able to have this integration. Where you're giving them connections to other people in the community, you're also giving them ownership and responsibility. Try to help them not thinking that I'm just here to receive whatever this community has, but I'm actually a contributing member, giving them a place where they can start giving.
Speaker 4:Right. And then the last thing I would just say is, throughout, all of that is just, it's just all about investment. I need to be investing in these individual relationships throughout that time and to be able to kind of take this sense of ownership over how are they coming in and integrating the community.
Speaker 3:I love that you use the word investment. It's kind of cool like listening to all these different stories we've had lately, like when we had Joseph Briano on. He talked about him talking with his volunteers, teaching them to be attentive and intentional, and that was a great little model of how to invest. In some sense it's like, okay, I'm hearing from Omar these things while I'm talking to him and so now, outside of whatever we just are doing or in the middle of it, I'm intentional with how I respond or intentional with what I'm inviting them to. A couple observations from what you shared.
Speaker 3:I was just like pondering it, like why maybe in other settings we don't have community. That was just described that you just had here. And I think the challenge that I had like putting out there is like what you just described was a collection of friendships within a common place, like a parish. That's like dynamic, ever intertwining and growing. And I think sometimes we look at trying to build community as like an event based, like the events are the strategy, and it's like no, it's actually like more dynamic than that. It's like there are friendships and people and so it's like a collection of relationships all growing deeper. And the other question I had is like what are the obstacles to community? And I hadn't thought about it. You were talking at the organizational level, but I was thinking at, like the one person level, like how.
Speaker 3:I affect it and like the only thing that I'm curious what you guys say. But one thing that came to my mind, like as you were describing, like if I'm near someone like Josh who's trying to build community, how do I not experience community? It was like what I was thinking, like okay, how could that not work for me? And the main one that just kept coming up on my mind was take your mask off. Like take, take the mask off. Like be known, Cause what's cool, like what you're describing, is what the community builder, the missionary, the investor is doing. But I think sometimes, even when we're organizing something, we're not meeting people, Like we're not being intimate, Like I'm not sharing a little bit of my heart or I'm not asking the prying question of really getting to know someone, and so it's interesting. I think there's like a both and, like a wisdom of a lot of what you shared, but then a very like if you're not living it at the one person level, present moment level, well, the whole thing doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it all falls apart and I think that we see this a lot at all sorts of different levels for ministry within community. But like what you're talking about, this like taking the mask off thing, like I have heard stories of like fellow focus missionaries who had students who said that you are only spending time with me because you're a focus missionary and what that communicates to me is that this focus missionary isn't taking their freaking focus missionary face off you know, every single one, and they're not.
Speaker 2:They're not getting to the root of it, they're not being real people to one another, like that's a consistent challenge and a temptation from the devil really is whispering to us that we need like a focus missionary needs this mask, or a diocesan employee needs this crest or this vest or you know, or a coach or a PTA volunteer or a teacher.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you go through the whole list.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You go through the whole list of hiding behind whatever that is, and but they're all just ultimately just excuses of not sharing our very self, which is which feels unsafe because we've been hurt as human beings and we. It's a learned behavior to like to retreat towards and to feel rest in, like I'm, I'm, secure here, um and so. So that'll be something that, like even as I go to the cathedral, like wanting, like I need to deeply desire and share, like people, with the specific people, like my life and um, and try really hard to like not be doe jace, you know, um of some of the time, uh, like I've had somebody tell me before jace, even while I've been here, like we can just not be director jace for just like a second, I'm like it was it was a good check you know, I like that, um.
Speaker 2:so I think that that's an important thing, but I think that you're spot on that like vulnerability is a fire, for that makes some of that stuff go.
Speaker 3:Well, it's interesting, like Josh mentioned, like at the natural level and at the spiritual level, like we need certain things, like we're made with this way, so like we're made to be seen, known and loved, right, we're made to be seen known and loved, right, and so like, if I'm in the act of trying to build community, not trying to see, know and love these people you know, or if I'm, as a member of the community, not letting myself be seen known and loved.
Speaker 3:It's a huge restriction. I think we're just you mentioned depth earlier lots of things that could be a beautiful community and are a good one with a lot of good soil. I feel like we're restricting it by not taking the risk of being known. You know, and are not pursuing at the level of being known. So maybe stopping at surface level conversation it's like one challenge I would have if we feel convicted about community is like go on a little journey with each conversation when you're with someone, like like learn the art of discovering the beauty in another person and just like experiment with that.
Speaker 3:You know, sometimes it's a question to be practical. I go where are you? Where are you from? Or like where'd you grow up? Or even go back more. Like, did you grow up around here? Is the surface level? Like, did you grow up around here? Yeah, level. Like, did you grow up around here? Yeah, I've been going to. I'll just use my example I've been going to Christ the King my whole life, oh, cool.
Speaker 3:And then there's a question after that question. Then there's a question after that question and you start getting into family and history and it opens up. Let's say, I met a person in a different setting didn't even know him. We're at a conference. Where'd you grow up? Okay, they talk about it. Where'd you go to school? You know you ask some of these basic surface level questions. Well, then it opens up identity questions, so, like someone might say where they went to school and you can hear like a ring in that that sounds Christian or Catholic and now you can like, just take a little risk. I don't know if that makes sense, but like, if you go into someone's life like that, at the surface level, now you can ask something that they enjoy or whatever, and you can see an opening to go very deep quickly and then you can know, depending on how deep they're going, if they'll receive you showing a little bit of vulnerability or heart.
Speaker 3:I don't know if that makes sense, but I think that, like human to human level is really essential for building community.
Speaker 4:Because I think what is at the core of all community or anything is it's the relationship that you want to be able to have an experience. And if I'm only viewing community as this thing, that I do this activity, then I'm misunderstanding what the reason for these great events which are bringing people together, is meant to do. It's ultimately meant to facilitate encounter and relationship and friendship. And going back to what we're talking about, like what, what is the root of communion? Right, it's this. It's this sharing of gift and the sharing of service and what is required of that of someone that's trying to help grow a community or establish a community.
Speaker 4:And, as you said, really important, for if I'm trying to be actively receiving what this community has had to offer, is it takes this vulnerability of myself and it also takes time, like when we think of investment. What is investment? It takes time, it takes sacrifice and it also takes vulnerability. Time takes sacrifice and it also takes vulnerability In Focus. We would remind ourselves that Focus is ultimately a ministry in unrequited love is what we talk about. I need to be able to put myself out there to extend invitations at risk of me of them being rejected.
Speaker 4:And also to model, as you were saying, like I also need to model a sharing of myself if I'm wanting and inviting and giving you permission to share yourself, and that might not always be reciprocated, but that's what I'm called to do and I even even the fact of and I think this is a great challenge for myself that you're bringing up, Jason like yeah, what is the motivation behind why I'm doing this? And, of course, we're following our motivations will never be 100% pure, but to be able to remind myself of, I'm not doing these things because I'm a focused missionary. Being a focused missionary allows me the space to be able to do these things to a greater extent. But ultimately, I'm doing these things because this is what I experienced and what I need, and this is what I know every person needs as well.
Speaker 4:And is it coming from this place of love for the other, of love of God and love of neighbor, or is it simply coming from this place of obligation and job?
Speaker 2:And it's really important to like think that through.
Speaker 3:Well, that's not the only motivation, though, like going to experience, like let's take probably most people's experience of community. Like one motivation I have on how I behave is if people will like me or not, or what people will think of me, or if I feel safe, or or to be accepted, right, and so what's interesting is like there's actually I love that you mentioned it Like one time I was asking Father Rex just in some council, like hey, is there, is this the Holy Spirit, is there James in this?
Speaker 3:And he was like well, if we're honest, there's a mixed motivation in everything and he's like, and the goal is to continue to get your motivations out of it and the Lord's in it, which I thought was really good advice. But I think if we honestly ask that, like if any of this made me uncomfortable, like why don't I want to go deeper with this small group of people, or this group or the whole community, and to ask the Holy Spirit to purify those motivations, I think is really helpful.
Speaker 2:So what are some of the bad ways to do this community? So we've discussed a little bit of keeping the mask on and different things. What are some of the other major pitfalls that you see, that you've seen, even, or maybe the mistake that you made?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've made. I've made many mistakes. Continue to do so, I think. How bad are you? How bad am I? I think so.
Speaker 4:One thing I think, I think a best practice that I always try to remind my, remind myself of but I think it's so easy to fall into the pitfall is the necessity to be able to actually meet and invite people individually and personally, and the event that I can be creating. Even if I have a great vision for the community event that I social media post, then it's missing the mark. Then you're almost disconnecting what actually you're saying. The motivation is, which is meant to be the interpersonal relationship and friendship of the individual members. So to be able to say, hey, I'm going to this thing, I would love for you to come, or did you hear about that event going on on Thursday night? I'm going to go, I'm going to summit. It's really cool. Would you want to come with me? I can pick you up to be able to have that time and investment piece necessary in order for the event to be able to land in the way it is Cause. Otherwise, if I come to event only because I saw it advertised, I'm going in feeling this sense of of disconnect because there wasn't a connected personal invitation to me individually. So I'm, so I'm already going in not as like an individual, but just as a piece, a piece.
Speaker 4:And so when you're thinking of, like what's this community event, if you're only thinking about like who's the audience of this event, versus who are the people that we want to hear, and then how are we making the invitations to these people, I think that that's a pitfall. I think also, if we view the event, no matter how great it is, as the vehicle for the encounter and we aren't taking into account that we need the people at the event to be responsible and have eyes for actually making connections with those present, then we're also going to fall short. Yeah, and then otherwise, when you're asked like what's describe your community, if I'm just describing these social activities that I do, then that actually isn't me being known and loved and cared for by the people there. They just again no, be my name, and we do similar things on a consistent basis.
Speaker 4:You know, am I, do we share? Do I share a group chat with this person or do I actually share life with this person? Do I know their story? Do I know what they're experiencing or do I just have this common social activity calendar that is the same as yours and I think a test of like the authentic friendship piece. And again going back to, we don't need to feel guilty that we don't have virtuous friendships with everyone. We know we don't have that capacity.
Speaker 3:That's impossible.
Speaker 4:And to be able to have, even at the early church, to be able to have the great communities that were being built up. But you had, like Paul, had, his companions that were his deep companions, out of the communities that he was able to form, and to be able to have that I can share of myself, as Paul talks about to the church in Thessalonica, that we were not only sharing with you the gospel of God, but also our very selves. I want to be able to share with you myself and then, from that, hopefully, I can be able to meet people that are also sharing themselves back with me and I can meet those with whom the Lord has invited me to share a particular closeness to as we're pursuing Christ together right, to share a particular closeness to as we're pursuing Christ together Right, so to be able to to recognize that I can't have all of these. These, not all of our friendships can be virtuous friendships and in the same way, not knowing that, not every event needs to be. You know, it doesn't all have to be super, super, over the top in depth or anything like that, but I think a good test of it is if I were to leave this community, if I were to leave this location, would that friendship still prevail? And I think that's like a test from the friendships piece. That's a test of virtual friendship. Is it only because I'm in proximity to you that I have friendship? And even if that is, I don't need to feel bad about that. That could be a blessing for the time in my life, but in the same way, of community.
Speaker 4:If I wasn't in this place, would I still be living in this way? Or would I be having these friendships that are coming to these weekly community events? Or is it only because that's the state of life that I'm in and I'm in this proximity? And I think that's when we get into sort of this. You can get into the sort of consumer mentality about the community itself, where you view the community as, or even the church, you view it as a service provider. Like, what services is it providing to me when in reality, the catechism says the church is nothing more than the family of God? Do I view it as this interpersonal relationship that demands things of me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do I just think of it as this, like therapeutic hot tub.
Speaker 3:I think we think too too narrow about community to some degree, and what I mean by that to use the, to take an imperfect analogy service provider, church.
Speaker 3:So, like I think we look at community or the church as like maybe like cafeteria hall, like okay, we're coming in and we're getting our food and the things we need, but in reality, like community is like a fruit and wildlife bearing forest, like it's an ecosystem right, and like the lord provides sunlight and water and the good soil and all these things in the ecosystem are interdependent upon each other, all the living creatures in the ecosystem, and they're giving each other's gifts and they're taking on sacrifices for it. And if you start to remove pieces of it, it all falls apart. Or if you start to, like jesus says, like not abide in him, so come off the vine. So if you uproot a tree, it's just not going to grow anymore, right, and so I'm just I think one thing I would, that I'm kind of resisting or I'm hearing in my own heart, is like sometimes I think about community of like what I'm going to do to build it, to make it better. Okay.
Speaker 3:And it's like, okay, there's some part of that, sure, we're tending to the garden, but in reality, I think we need to think how you began this. What is the Holy Spirit trying to bring about in this collection of persons in this place, and realize that we're actually cooperating with this ecosystem, I guess right, and that it's lots of the. If we were to measure success by the things we can see, or numbers, or the amount of people at this manufactured moment that we created in time, it would be kind of short-sighted, whereas the measure of success, you know, numbers are important, of course, the quantitative, but the qualitative, I think, in some senses even more important here. Um, and I think that I get tempted and I'll just use the smaller example, instead of the fancy talk, like, let's say, you're leading a Bible study, I get tempted, like when I hear the text messages coming in, or I could even be coaching a sports team, very similar and I see all the texts, messages coming in of who can't make it right I'm kind of getting deflated, but instead the proper response is just like pray with the holy spirit.
Speaker 3:Okay, it's gonna be a little different tonight. Like, what do you want? What do you want to come out of that, lord, and then you end up having an encounter with this person that's like off agenda, off schedule, it's like just as good. And so I think my challenge is like to realize that community can be like it can have these formal efforts we're doing, but it can also be a lots of nondescript, nondescript, non-seen collections of people and their overlap. And so I love the wisdom of you of like connecting people to each other and connecting them to different parts If we're using the parish as an example different parts of the life of the parish. So I don't know if that makes sense, but I think one huge obstacle is like one person's paradigm, or a group of people's paradigm of what success looks like, but then also thinking that community has to be it can be for sure, and it's very fruitful this way but it has to be. This formal construct of this is the definition of this set group of people.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I love that you bring up John 15 and the true vine, and I think this even gets to Jace. You mentioned, yeah, the hot tub piece, which I think we can unpack more, but yeah, where Christ says by this my Father is glorified, that you would bear much fruit and that any vine that does not bear fruit is going to be pruned.
Speaker 4:He prunes Right and to be able to almost see that, as, as you said, yeah, we can describe aspects of community, but there's also going to be like how is the Holy Spirit really guiding and transforming this community? And you can almost see it as well. The testing of the fruit like is, and I think the test and the fruit is is it naturally fruitful? And I think that hot tub piece of another pitfall is like we created this great community where actually there is shared life. We actually have deep friendship in this community. Great, let's stay in this community. Let's just like.
Speaker 4:I found my people. The world's crazy out there. We're in this post christendom secular age. I found people that I can trust, that also know me, so it's not to even say that they're that. It's like an inauthentic community where you could actually be very, very vulnerable and could be sharing life with the people.
Speaker 4:But if you have this closed off mentality right when recognizing again that Christ calls us to be fruitful and it's not going back to even what we were talking about of like, we can get in this false sense of my job as a missionary job working for the diocese or the parish, my job as a missionary job working for the diocese or the parish it's.
Speaker 4:It's not. It's not out of just strict duty or obligation. Obviously the Lord commissions us and commands us with all authority to go and make disciples, but ultimately that is coming from the necessary end of an authentic love, because love is necessarily fruitful. It desires to be shared and given away in the way that we see, first modeled by the Trinity and then that we also are able to participate in. And obviously our worldly glimpse and invitation to experience the Trinitarian love is within marriage, as you talked about earlier, james. But I think a tendency is that if we are turned inward, then this can lead to stagnation of growth and it can also lead to like sterileness in the community as well, where love is meant to be shared. But if we try to hoard this life of grace and we try to keep it within, it's ultimately going to wither and die.
Speaker 3:You accidentally go back up the chance, like the gradation of friendship in some sense, like okay, I'm now an authentic, virtuous friendship and it's bearing fruit. And once you start to hot tub it and you close it in right, like you go up to this, wait, wait, now we're all just hanging out, like it, no, no longer has a higher purpose anymore. Granted, it holiness might be, but similarly like holiness without the mission, like it's very easy to stagnate.
Speaker 3:It's like just breathing out for a long period of time or just breathing in for a long period of time, Like you're going to fall over and die.
Speaker 1:One way or the other. If you do one or the other, yeah.
Speaker 3:If it was completely binary it wouldn't work. It just depends on which type of person you are.
Speaker 2:Are you a have outer? It's like severance you get. Are you watch that show?
Speaker 4:I'm familiar and I haven't watched it yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like, so it's like they like, cut your brain in half, and so half of the time when you're not at work, oh you understand everything but when you're at work, you don't remember anything from your outside, so they call them your any and your audi. Anyway. I just watched that last night with xander, but anyway, yeah, but yeah, I think the hot tub.
Speaker 4:So I think the the, the authentic image, would not be a hot tub, but it would be this like fire of hot coals, cause it's also not to negate the fact that we do need to inhale, right, that we, and that's why, that's why the parish exists, for us to be able to go and to be able to receive the gift of the grace from the sacraments, to be able to participate, as a member of the parish, in the programmings and the ministries that are meant to be able to build us up, right. So, when you think of going to the hot coal fire to be able to allow for the fire to be fanned, that you have to be able to be built up, but then, to be able to be, we're not meant to stay there, right, we're meant to be sent out. When you think of the word mass, right, misa, it means to be sent, the commissioning is go forth, the mass has ended, and I think we can have, within the parish structure, we can have this sort of oh no, I'm just going to stay here when, in reality, we're being sent out into the world and that's where, as lay people in particular, that is our proper vocation and place in the world to and then to be able to meet and befriend and invite and encounter people into the community and family of god. So when I leave the hot coals, I need to make sure that I'm consistently coming back and I'm an after member of the parish, but then I also want to be able to bring other people so they can be lit on fire as well.
Speaker 4:And I I think, when we think of and that's the paradox of the self-gift, because I think some of the watchouts can be well, I'm worried about what this will take away from our community that we have right. Am I going to deplete myself? Is it going to ruin this great community that we've spent so much time building? And it's really the paradox of the self-gift right Christ talks about unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies, it will bear much fruit. Or, as St John Paul II said, man cannot find himself except making a sincere gift of himself.
Speaker 4:So I think, going back to that community piece of it's, this mutual dynamic of giving and receiving, and that the community ought to be something that is connected to mission, and actually quoting our great Archbishop Coakley himself and Go Make Disciples. He talks about this dynamic of holiness and communion and he says holiness and communion lead necessarily to mission. We cannot separate the call to holiness and communion from the universal call to mission. That is the work of evangelization. So to be able to see those as so interconnected that as I am growing in relationship and growing in love, that then I'm being sent out to be able to share and spread that love with others and bring other people into that community so they can experience it themselves, so don't be a greedy person.
Speaker 2:Share Jesus with people, right? I mean, that's like it's kind of like the whole thing within it. Any last things on community, josh, that you wanted to get out there? I don't think so. You don't think so. All right, let's land the plane. It's been Red Dirt Catholics I'm Jace, I'm James and I'm Josh. We'll see you next time, thank you.