Red Dirt Catholics
Join Jayce, James and guests from "Red Dirt" Oklahoma as they discuss what evangelization and discipleship looks like in real life.
Red Dirt Catholics
Bold Simplicity: Drawing People in with Truth and Tradition
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In this episode, Jayce and James share real stories of bringing people into the Church with a question, like an agnostic who came for the music and said yes to OCIA after a gentle ask; a seeker who loves liturgy but hesitates because of family wounds; a friend wrestling with the Eucharist and the early Church.
Along the way, they name what’s working—and why. Reverent worship that lets people pray without a sales pitch. Access to thoughtful sources like the Didache, the catechism, and the Church Fathers. A culture where the Holy Spirit leads and we follow with patience, courage, and love. Instead of trying to “win,” we learn to keep the door open, ask honest questions, and offer timely invitations.
If you’ve ever wondered how to walk with someone who’s curious but cautious, this episode offers a field guide. They also cover thresholds of conversion, practical tools like a simple “pick five” intercessory list, and how to speak without jargon so friends actually hear the good news.
Lastly, they talk about when to be bold, when to be quiet, and how prayer reshapes hard conversations. The result is a hopeful picture of evangelization grounded in beauty, truth and real friendship.
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Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa
You gotta tell me how the pop-up shops are doing. What's going on? They're pretty fun. I've become more interested. You sent me a video about it. Um, like I've always been like the anti-hipster in a way. Um I remember that was your first response when I was like, hey, you should go to this.
SPEAKER_02:It's really fun, like a couple years ago. What did I say? You were like, you guys are so hipster or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Uh like just go to just go to Walmart like a regular person, you know, is is typically my reaction to certain things like that. But I've become more interested because uh the cathedral or our school, Bishop John Carroll has a Christmas tree lot there. They're having they're having a banner year. You sent me you sent me a video. Like tell us about like how's the shop doing? How's that what's is it is it over now?
SPEAKER_02:Is it uh so there's every every weekend until the weekend before Christmas, there's a different set of vendors down there in midtown. And what do you what do you even sell? Uh well, it's different. Each vendor's a little different. Uh, but for Emily specifically, it's like home goods. So for the Catholic audience, there's some Advent candles, which probably won't be at her last weekend, but we're popular this first weekend before Advent. Um, she has like some English spills from Germany. Uh-huh. Or no, those are from Sweden, actually. Um, and then like anything you would want to adorn your kitchen, you know, and back to normal, normal things, not just gather things. Anything you'd want to adorn adorn your kitchen or help be in your kitchen or your laundry room, but it'd be like objectively more beautiful than than what you would buy at Walmart, no dig. Um that would be there. And Emily kind of prides herself in not in having things that you couldn't buy on Amazon. So it's like this is that's hard to do. This is collected, curated. Most of it's kind of from curated. Most of it's from Europe. Um, and so she's kind of like found some soap makers Europe. Yeah, who's been making soaps early from the 1800s. So yeah, it's pretty cool. Some of it's American made. Like there's a little, there's a single mama that makes these wooden toys that Emily has, like those little construction vehicles that have a little wooden character in them, and the gal like whittles them. It's pretty cool. So uh fun stuff. I think she's adding she has some quilted things and she's trying to have someone who's semi-local um make some quilted products for.
SPEAKER_00:So you're popping up this shop. Is it cold? Or do you have like heaters?
SPEAKER_02:Uh like what's it's pretty cold. So most people are bundled up, but you gotta stop and get the hot chocolate too. Um, and even if you're not buying a tree, though you should from Bishop Carroll, you at least gotta like walk through that. It's like a forest of you know, it's like a little winter forest of trees in there. Um it's I think we're almost out of trees, actually. And they're going, it's going really well, actually. Um, but yeah, it's this these next two weekends are like in the 50s, but Friday was decent. It was pretty it seemed like a record breaker on our end at least. Um Emily's shop was pretty popular right on the corner. And then uh but yeah, like there was someone fitting custom fitting like cowboy hats there, and there was like chocolates. Um it's just a cool place. It's all a bunch of local shops. So to your point, like you could go to Target or Walmart and get everything for your family if there's a specific list, but like if there's like hard to shop for people, like your parents or your sister or brother or something, you can go over there. Yeah, you can kind of meander around and like you'll get some pretty good ideas, and you might buy from three or four shops and get half your list done. Sounds like the way shopping is supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, it's not supposed to be so utilitarian, it's a world. It's kind of fun, it's sort of cultured.
SPEAKER_02:I was telling Jace the Cathedral should like sing Vespers or something there, yeah, which would be amazing.
SPEAKER_00:We'll talk to Nolan about it. He'd be all about that.
SPEAKER_02:Like we'd love to and there's a huge Christmas tree and some photo ops, and you could walk across the street somewhere and eat in midtown after. Like it's a fun little experience.
SPEAKER_00:For sure, for sure. So um do you ever get like so it's like in the middle of midtown, it's the middle of like a bunch of bars, a bunch of nightlife places. Do people like stumble around in there? Is there ever like like unsavory type things that are happening? Do you ever have to kick people out?
SPEAKER_02:There was a gentleman there that um there were two times. One, someone had slept overnight in the porta potty and um I think had attempted a fire in there. So he was he was in isra the gal was really sweet, like you know, in trying to help encourage him not to be there but get him to the next spot, um, because the porta potty is meant to be used. But so that like you definitely see the poverty of of the homeless population, and like your heart goes out there. A gentleman was a little bit like eccentric later in the day and was yelling at some folks. Um that was it. I mean, there's certainly a few people that you could tell we were maybe the pregame spot on their bar scene because there is like a beer bus there. Yeah. And this guy he was really jovial, but there's a gentleman who like came and talked to me and asked me to hold his beer while he went to the bathroom. I had a little table, we were doing uh tea samples or whatever. And I gave him tea. He was put up a sign, make a killing. Yeah, he was I will hold your beer. I won't be. Just a few free sips, you know. But he was really jovial and like in the Christmas spirit, and I I uh I honestly think he was probably just more friendly than he was uh inebriated, but he was certainly at least enjoying a couple.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Yeah. We were like Christmas is kind of in full swing. So one of my favorite things uh I've probably talked about on the podcast before that my family does is my my siblings, we get together and we watch Jim Carreys the Grinch the Friday after Thanksgiving. Every year. It's it's really more sacrosanct for us than like Thanksgiving or something, because Thanksgiving, like we're we tend to um we tend to think through, all right, you're going here for this Thanksgiving, and like everyone's everywhere, but we keep that space full and like no one's jockeying for position on Black Friday evening, you know. Um That's pretty awesome as far as something to do. So we're always there. We'll make a special cocktail for the Grinch. Um and what is it? Is it a green cocktail? Yeah, yeah. So the first year, the first year I like it it gets bigger every year. Like we go harder with it. Like the very first one, it was just like at somebody's house, you know, maybe we had chips and salsa and we watched the movie, you know, and then we were like, all right, let's have dinner. And then and then at someone then I had the idea of like, what if we made really fancy Grinch cocktails? So the first year we did it, it was like it was green, obviously, but we would have like madori and like um some sort of clear rum or vodka, uh, mix them together, put like lemon juice, simple syrup, all the Sprite, whatever it, whatever the recipe calls for, but it would be this bright green, but you would garnish it with a little maraschino cherry at the bottom of the glass, and so it would represent the the Grinch's heart like being three sizes too small or whatever. So just like little touches like that, and we all go for it.
SPEAKER_02:Um we watched the Grinch recently, and it was interesting. We watched the like the old older version, I guess. It's interesting to think about like there's actually some satire present on sec towards secular Christmas from the character of the Grinch. That's like actually pretty healthy to think about.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. I mean, there the there's a there's a million, you know, if you're the kind of dad that presses pause when he sees a teachable moment, watching a movie with your kid, there's a million of those opportunities um with going through the Grinch. Like you have the like the Who's were you know extremely materialistic and weren't and weren't particularly human about it. You have, you know, forgiveness, you have um charity. Oh yeah. You could you can go all about it. Um big fan of the Grinch. Um one of my favorite movies. Um but yeah, but then we'll sail all together and like they don't leave till like midnight, and it's just that's fun. It's just it's just a great time. Um we put the Christmas tree up. Oh, it was so mean. Um Danielle, I get into the office, like I get there like after I drop Peter off at school, so I'm there at like 8.15 or so. And I I sit down and I get a notification that Danielle posted a photo on Facebook and it's Jude, and it's like him like smiling, looking at the Christmas tree. And I just immediately comment on it. I was like, I'm feeling sick. I might call into work, you know, or something. He's just he's being so fun. He's uh I'm calling him a dog because he's kind of like just barking. He's like like with his with his cues and stuff. Yeah, it's that's fun. It's the it's the absolute best. Um so when we were thinking about what we were gonna talk about today, like sometimes we have I mean, I'm sure you've all picked up on this. Sometimes we have like eight weeks in a row planned out when we've found the time to like sit down and like invite guests and do what real podcasters should do. And sometimes we're texting each other the night before of like, what do you what do you got, brother? And figuring it out. And so this week James was carrying it. You want to introduce kind of how we're where we're wanting to go?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So the the topic uh we want to we want to share is just like conversations amidst conversion, you know, this idea of like what role do we have to play as friends and Catholics in being in conversation with our friends that that might be seeking to come into the church or might be pondering about Christianity for the first time. And it's kind of fitting too, because great Jace is like in the middle of interviewing a bunch of the OCIA folks.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so, like amidst that like backdrop of like, how do I have these conversations? Like, in some sense, I was like examining my own conversation I just had with a friend and and like in awe that he would initiate it and take it this way, but also wondering, like, huh, I wonder like what role I'm to play, because he just opened the door. Um, but then at a larger scene, like think reflecting on several different relationships and like your experience and others with OCIA is like the Holy Spirit kind of has something in the air right now with regard to like the interest in things that are old in culture in the Catholic Church, like in the historical, like early church. And so yeah, I would just love to rift on that and like with you listeners kind of celebrate that. I'm sure you there's a few people you know that are in this place, you know, that you're having these kinds of conversations with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's just happening, like stuff moves so much more quickly now with the way uh social media works, and now this AI thing is like throwing gas on the fire, right? Like, like you have to, like if you're watching reels or something, you have to double check and see was that AI generated, was that actually real? And like you can get uh you can get fooled really easily. Um, you know, and I I see it all the time. Uh I can't believe that this happened, and it's just obviously an AI thing that like my grandma posted or something like that. Um so we're just rapidly going to this place of artificial is a great way to put it. Um and we stand as Catholics, especially we stand in a place that's uniquely tradition and uniquely, and the more like as I've been like OCI has been so fun. There's so many amazing people I'm getting to meet.
SPEAKER_02:70 plus now, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And it's it's fun to be really successful and all of that, even though I know for sure that it's uh has a a lot more to do with what Montseignor Rick and our music director Nolan have done. Um because I need to adjust that Monsignor Rick.
SPEAKER_02:He's still Father Rick in my head.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I I still say it all the time. In fact, I I like caught it in the as it was coming out of my math there. Uh in the in the ways that they've adapted in um the way that we're celebrating in our beautiful building in the in the cathedral. And I think for a long time, and I I've fallen into this too, um when it comes to attracting somebody who's a convert, when you think you wanna you wanna smell like the sheep in a way, right? You're like, all right, well, how can we how can we be more accessible? Um and sometimes we can I think that we can take that too far. Yeah. And like we're to the point where we water down where we're not who we are authentically, and we're just trying to like get people in the door, and it and it's just immediately apparent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's it while it seems less easy or less inviting, it it the better way seems to be being who you are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like I was talking with somebody from OCA and he was talking about how how much he loves uh the mass and how uh mysterious and like uh holy and ultimately like uh heavenly it is, which the mass is, but it it can be a little bit easier when everything surrounding it um applies to your senses in that way. And I think that we've done a great job of that at Our Ladies. But he also talked about, and it almost took me off guard because I have plans um uh to specifically like address this thing that I was considering a problem, but he considered a plus when he was comparing it to like the Methodist church that he was at. He was like, Man, it felt so good to just not have anybody come and get me the second I walked through the door and try to hand me a try to hand me a welcome card to fill out or something where I can just come in and be and pray. Like it feels like the real reason we're all there is to pray. Like was his idea. And I was like, maybe I maybe I should slow down this greeter team I'm working on right now. And I and I think that they're I think that it's a it's a both and type of thing. I think that we can train our greeters that it's purely a sharing of your own heart, not a not a how can we get you. Yeah, not not not a hard close type of thing, but just an invite invitation into friendship. Um but that that was an attractant for him. And I was like, huh. So there's like right cutting through the noise is a is a really important thing that I've been seeing with all of them. And so the beauty, the attraction to beauty and the accessibility of information, those two things combined, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Um Yeah, it is fascinating, this ex accessibility of information, because like previously let's say I'm in kind of a fundamentalist mainline Protestant communion, so to speak. Um let's say I'm in a Baptist tradition growing up and I've been exposed to uh the fundamentalist viewpoints that are kind of anti-Catholic, right? Like um there's there's these checkboxes of things that are like attacking Mary, attacking church authority, you know, kind of going through that. And there's a it's an older book, but it's quite helpful actually. It's like called Fundamentalism and Catholicism. It just like breaks down. Heating, right? Yeah, it just breaks those down. Which is like the first time I read it was really helpful. It's like, oh, someone's helping me with all the questions I've been getting since I came to Oklahoma. Transplant from Kansas, moved to college, didn't know didn't really fully understand most of the world wasn't Catholic until I got into college. But um anyway, it's like let's say I'm in that space. You'd have to work really hard if you were curious as a person in that Baptist church about what the Catholic Church teaches. Like you'd have to get fully outside your bubble and like be hanging out running with some Catholics, or like intentionally going and checking out Catholic books. Yeah, and spending money. Whereas right now, to your point, like it's like you could kind of look up a topic that you heard and then find your way to a Catholic apologist or Pints with Aquinas or Trent Horn or even some kind of well-followed young person who's got a lot of followers and posts a lot of Catholic stuff, and you can find the thoughts and you can start thinking about it and wondering, and you can find um a lot for the other side of the argument too. So you can really like discern almost go to OCIA in theory, so to speak, like get the theoretical and the and the teaching points, you can get those under certain, like feed that curiosity and go down the funnel, which is kind of fascinating. Um, wouldn't it have been there before?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it and it and it hasn't been. So, like I think that we've been some of the biggest deriders of social media out there on on the podcast waves, but like that's something that's been a real positive that we've seen. That it's uh it's just easier to stumble upon. Um, and now you're getting like a 30-second video that like leaves you with a quick question and is a lot more open-ended and is much less uh fire and brimstone. So it's just like it's just working in a way.
SPEAKER_02:The other thing, I wonder what your thoughts are here, but I actually think I've found that a lot of my Protestant friends now versus people who I knew were Protestant back in my like adolescent years, they have the new evangelizations actually worked in the Catholic Church. And what I mean by that is like the people outside of the church have noticed to put in their words that there are real believers in the Catholic Church. There are there are people who will be saved that are in the Catholic Church, to put use their words again, right? Yeah, and so to use our words and what does that mean? I'm gonna pause for a second. To use our words, there are there are many of us who've been embracing our faith for our own and developing a real prayer life and a relationship with the Lord, and we haven't left the church to find that, right? And so people are seeing the fruits of the spirit in our lives as Catholics. People are seeing that we love Jesus, that we love reading the scriptures, people outside the church. And so in their head, there's some cognitive dissonance. Like, hey, they have some things I kind of like. Like, if I'm honest, confession's kind of attractive. If I'm honest, this liturgy is really attractive and beautiful. And they also have a relationship with Jesus. They that that that Jace guy, he prays, like he evangelizes, he he loves scripture, you know, like so that's like there's does that make sense? Like there's some street cred and some witness within the church, proper um within the Catholic Church that I think helps Protestants be curious and open, or at least be like we're on the same team.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um and so there's like a level ground to even if they might disagree with some things, the fact that there's fruit that they can see and enough of it. And to be candid, there always was. Right. Always but there, I think there's a greater amount of people who like from the outside we can see like they're they're walking with Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's just more more visible in a way. Yeah. Um and the younger you get the more the more they're willing to just to see that. Like there's a there's such an openness between like there is a transition period with our generation, with millennials, into into Gen Z where they're they've become a lot more open. They still believe, like they almost believe in truth more than we did, even though even though they are much more open to listening to all of it, you know, which is fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:Like well, it's like there's been more there's been more evidence of untruth. It's been more loud in their face. I mean, I mean not to be totally political, but a lot's happened since COVID, right? Yeah. And there were like bold faced lies and there was lots of confusion. And so wherever you sit on any one of those, the fact that amits confusion across and then honestly, even the sexual resolution, which is kind of coming to a peak point, but like 70s on, like as that gets louder and evil gets bigger, a lot of the population's like, I want the real thing. I want truth.
SPEAKER_00:I want Yeah. And Yeah, it gets the appetite, the appetite for it grows.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's fascinating. I don't know if you've you've been in these, but I was in a conversation yesterday with a client called me out of the blue that we're not actively doing business together, but just wanted to get my opinion on something. Then he's like, by the way, we haven't talked in a while. Like, what's up? And so I kind of catch up, share some things. And it was like the Holy Spirit. He wanted to, and maybe the Holy, and clearly the Holy Spirit wanted to, wanted the conversation to get to Catholicism. Because I didn't say an overly faithful thing, though it was adjacent. And then he asked about the shared relationship amidst that shared experience we had. I was like, Hey, what about her? Like, I know you know her. And he just described who she was and didn't know her name. Off the top of his head, I was like, Oh, this person? He's like, Yeah, that's her. She knows my cousin. Um she was kind of walking the line between Cathol Catholicism and Protestantism. Did she convert? Like, what's what's there? Because if she converts, she's a real smart lady. Like, if she converted, I'd like to know why. And he and he just shares, like, hey, honestly, here's where I'm at. Let me just catch you up to speed. So he just shares how he's been like looking into the early church and really wanting to know what the early church did. And is really attractive, attracted to the liturgy. Um and he actually I we've got to the Eucharist pretty quickly in the conversation. He's like, Yeah, like actually the fact is like I'm not all the way there on the true presence. Like, I'm not all the way there. I don't fully get that. Like, I'm not sure that's what Jesus said, but it's definitely more than a symbol. Like, there's certainly like a spiritual presence. Like, I'm convicted on that. Like, that's why I left the Baptist church and I'm now in the Presbyterian communion. Because like we were supposed to do this regularly, do this in remembrance of me. And there is certainly a pre- it's more than a symbol. And we can't ignore that. And so it's just really neat to hear like where he was on that. But then I chose to just listen a lot and ask questions in this conversation. But like he was wanting to know more. Like it was interesting. Like he was almost on the offensive of wanting to ask me things to learn about Catholicism, but then was readily sharing like his protest to see if I could give him something to grapple with, I guess, which is really fascinating. But I felt like I didn't know where he was to be able to give him the right things. So I just kept asking questions, but also empathizing. Like he brought up Mary, which he found to be farther down the chain of like a minor point. Um, he brought up Mary and I was like, Well, I don't, I don't disagree with you that some of the devotional language about Mary might feel foreign and be like and be off-putting and be hard to hear, you know. And I kind of helped him understand some of the distinction there. And so I like I didn't agree with him on things that are untrue, but I did agree with him on under like I did empathize and understand things. But it's just a fascinating conversation. And I and I left it being in awe of similar conversations I've had like this, and wondering, like, what role am I to play here? Like he opened, he basically said, Hey, if you could read this and read this after hearing what I said, and feel free to challenge me to read something, I'd love to get lunch in a few weeks. Yeah. Which is like really cool. Like he's opening the doors. Yeah, divine appointment from the Holy Spirit. Yeah, is really, really quite neat. But you need to work. One thing I realized I've I've referenced it before, but I haven't actually read through the whole thing. But he challenged me to read the Didique, um, which as I understand it's like an early Christian text, not a part of the canon of scripture. It basically talks about but kind of like a manual, like how you do baptism, you know, how often we should do the Eucharist or you know, things like that. And so I don't know if you're familiar with it, but I'd love to read it.
SPEAKER_00:Um I read it back in the day.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like I'm not sure if I could say a single thing about it other than if, yeah, it's about baptism. Yeah. But I remember it being I remember it being helpful, like it's such a it's so difficult to know when you're on the hot seat in the moment, and all of a sudden there's opportunity in front of you. And that opportunity, like from somebody who's questioning or is curious, or is or is even antagonistic about the faith and knowing what like the right like and discerning what the right thing to do in the moment. I feel like a lot of the times we are um we we have a tendency to shy away from the moment um instead of and and we can talk about how um we're shying away in the name of you know, keeping dialogue open or something like that, which is uh which is a strategy and is the right thing to do in specific instances, but I feel like that's our default so often, instead of just like really actively engaging, or or I think that more often than not, what we see is well, I don't know anything. I'm I don't know enough to really engage with somebody who just read the Diddeke. Um and I think that you know it's a two-pronged thing of like the Holy Spirit will be with you, and you can just be really like just be an honest person and be like, I don't know about that, but I'd love to look it up and like get back to you. Like that's such a genuine way of going about it. Um I was I was listening to a parishioner who was talking about a difficult relationship um with an in-law, and this in-law was fairly antagonistic about about about their Catholic faith. Yeah. Um and as they were going through it, this person was really just mostly interested in playing who can quote the most scripture and verse, right? That fundamentalist thing. Like recommending that book to to them, I think is a great next step. Um, as far as what to do. But in this particular moment, it was so it was so antagonistic that it felt disrespectful, and like they were discussing like feelings of like uh anger in the moment as they were dealing with this particular person's um faith and fire and all of it. And I think the right thing for them to do was to like I think the number one thing that you have to do when you're having conversations in conversion, like the number one step is to keep is to not kill the communication or the uh the subject matter around it, regardless of what the other party is giving to you. Um like it's almost your role to like make sure that you can have another conversation because it takes so many. Yeah. Like, like, like in my experience, I just like God bless Jeff Fennell. Yeah. Um, he would come to me and we were friendly, and he was so good to me. Um he'd take me to lunch, he'd walk me through, like he would present the points of like, Jace, what did the early Christians do? The Bible didn't exist until the 300s. Like, what did they do? Entire generations. And I was like, they somehow knew, and like I didn't I didn't want to go there and like there's a I wouldn't call it intellectual dishonesty, but um, but there was just like a blindness is probably a bit mean way of saying it, but that's the only thing I can think of. But there's just like a blind spot at least. That's a good word. Where where I just couldn't see it.
SPEAKER_02:Um and did you in your mind, did you just avoid going there? Or or did you because I've heard that similar, like as I've talked with people, was like asking that same question. Well, like, okay, until the canon was accepted, like what'd they do?
SPEAKER_00:Like Yeah, the things that the well they were relying on, you know, their pastors and and they were communicating it, and everyone just kind of knew what it was anyway. Like the council really didn't do a whole lot, you know. And there's nothing explicit to back that up, they're that particular thing. Like you you don't really read all of the people at that period of time. But what changed your mind in that topic, not in the in that speci in that uh it w uh nothing. Uh grace. Yeah. Is what I would say.
SPEAKER_02:Like there's a moment probably grace and just time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, grace and just time to like wrestle with it and letting it to sink in. Like there's a there's a period of unlearning in a way when you're uh when you're in it. And and it was a masterclass for them and like walking with me on keeping it open regardless of the dumb, arrogant stuff, I would say. And just like and just like see sensing that we were approaching an area where there was a sensitivity from me. Um or I was frustrated and just like let's let's order another, let's like just like finding finding an o normal moment to like say, you know, how about Landry Jones, you know, uh, and OU football and just kind of like swerving when when it was getting to a to a moment where it would jeopardize our conversations in the future when I would be more ready.
SPEAKER_02:I heard someone recently saying something to the effect of like they were talking about evangelization and topics on religion and politics at the Thanksgiving table. Um, you know, like how to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Can I be honest? I I hate I hate those homilies. I hate those, I hate those thoughts of well, now everyone's getting together with their family and it's gonna be difficult and all of that stuff. Like I've heard it a lot. And I understand that we kind of need to hear it a lot of time. Like what family argues about we do kind of need their minds. I'm just like being real with just like that whole that bothers you so that whole like American stereotype of that Thanksgiving dinner sucks because of politics.
SPEAKER_02:I just think it's well, the person talking about this actually did a pretty good job. They were like, look, yeah, keep going. Sorry, sorry, I just I just had a knee-jerk reaction. It could be it could be like really uh uh cringy, you know, some of the advice on it. But anyway, he he was like, Look, this is kind of how I handle evangelization, but I think it applies here. Like the goal is not to win, like the goal is to love this person, to have a good relationship with them, and to like be really charitable and keep a dialogue going. Yeah. He's like, so like if you're talking about a hot topic, whether it's religion or politics or whatever, his advice was how about you understand where they're coming from? And and also when you're not talking about it, how about you do the dishes and get them a refill or whatever? You know, it's just like this, and I really love that. He was like, try to be the most charitable person instead of win the argument. And and he was like, because really, like, if I'm coming from this point of view and I've come from it for a long time, I'm not gonna convince them. Like if that person is coming, I'm not gonna convince them in one conversation. And frankly, if it's evangelization, it's not my job to. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. Now, my goal, if I'm talking tactical about the conversation, he's like, my goal is to like I'm trying to see where they're coming from, is to help them see where I'm coming from and just make them want to wonder about it and to have another touch point post this moment where we can be together again. Yeah. And I and I thought I was like, wow, that's such not what I thought was gonna have be the next conversation. But it's totally like the right tactic, you know, or the right, really the right disposition of heart. Yeah. Cause like I don't know, in in reality, and I think it's helpful. Matt Frad does a good job of this. I think it's helpful, especially if we've like know this person well, even if they're still in like a pro protestant place towards the faith, but they're curious. Um, I think it's helpful to tell them, like, hey, I actually just to be clear, like I would love for you to be Catholic. Like it's one of the best gifts in my life. But I'm not, I'm not gonna make you, and I'm probably not gonna convince you either. Like, I'm here to help answer some questions, like I'm here to love you, but here are the reasons why I love it. And like cats out of the bag. But then also, like, as Catholics, like the one thing I don't have a lot of stress about the conversations because like one, I can't control it. Two, I can't convince. Three, this is all 100% true. So, like, whether I am the best, most well-versed person, I don't have to take the position of needing to win. If that makes sense. Like, I just have to take the position of facilitating the dialogue, yeah, of journeying towards truth. Because at least in minor instances, there's probably areas where I don't understand the truth fully.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:While the church is still true, 100%. There might be something that I'm not understanding enough in helping this person pursue truth, I may know it more deeply.
SPEAKER_00:And there's so much grace in a disposition like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like, and there's so much more room for grace. I'm a competitive person. The desire to win is always it's always it's it's always there. And it's always there for all of us, right?
SPEAKER_02:We don't want to be weak necessarily, though in our weakness are made strong. I like with some personalities, like if there's a lot of love and this person's like really intellectual, like, yeah, you might need to spar a little bit. Like that might be appropriate. Like to be like, if that's if it's understood that's what we're doing here. But you want to be s sparring to the extent of offending. But like if the person needs the arguments, yeah, you probably need to give them.
SPEAKER_00:But so yeah, I would say that that's so that would be like one of my top priorities is like like you like maintain the relationship, um, communicate charitably when appropriate answer questions, like authenticity, all of those things early on are the most important, especially. As it moves forward, it's interesting. Like I can think of a moment. There's my there's a friend of mine. Um, we're going disc golfing tomorrow. He's in he's an OCIA though. And so I get to the cathedral and I'm like, bright-eyed bushy tail, I'm gonna meet everybody. I'm going to every coffee and donuts all the time. And uh, and then um him and his wife are there, and so I sit down with them and start chatting it up, and he lets it be known fairly quickly. He's like, uh, I'm agnostic. I just like the music.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and but his wife being a cradle Catholic, and I was like Agnostic in the truest sense of the word or agnostic as to which Christian commun community we're a part of?
SPEAKER_00:Uh truest sense of the word, I think, is what he wanted to convey. I don't know like I don't believe in Gnostics. Um I think that when they agnostics, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Um uh which just defined the term for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, agnostic, like I like like kind of shrugging and saying, I don't know. I believe that there's probably something God's probably real, but doesn't really matter that much. But that's not making any difference in my day-to-day, so why care? And why why worry about that?
SPEAKER_02:It's like a libertarian view towards faith in a way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but uh and maybe maybe maybe kind of lazy in it. Yeah. Um and but I would see him, he was at mass every week. And I like like we would sit, our family would sit next to them a certain week, we'd have coffee and donuts, and so uh and we went, I went disc golfing with him early on, just like, hey, let's let's hang out some more. And then we got, you know, beer another time and chicken, you know, and it just like developed a friendship. Um and it just got to the point where I needed to make the courageous invitation to the next step. Nice. Right? Like, like I I thought we were at the point where like and I had to remind myself he's there every week. Like, he doesn't he's not doing anything else. Um and so I was like, hey man, you know, and I made it really casual. I was like, OCIA starting, would love to see you, would love to see you join. I mean, you're here all the time and yada yada yada. And he was like, you know, man, thanks. I I I'm totally coming. And he did.
SPEAKER_02:And it and is it was that simple.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and it it was that simple. And sometimes I think that we're really afraid. I think that I think that there's a ton of people that if they were just given that slightly bolder than normal call um that we have of these relationships with, um and we're we're so afraid of offending, but I think this generation's getting less and less afraid of offending, which is cool. Um that it's just that it's just a genuine offer and an invitation and to be bold. So I another like posture point that I would want to make is like there's moments that take courage and you should be ready for that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and sometimes sometimes it's just gonna come out of nowhere, and you're just like, you it's one or the other. You know, it's like punt or go for it on fourth down. Yeah. Um and uh and it's kind of it's kind of up to you, and it I think it takes some practice, but uh, you know, the Holy Spirit can guide you to a certain extent, and you can have a feeling most of the time you have a feeling like I should go for this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh what's what's interesting, I love that you shared that. The question I have is has anything changed like he made this this stance that he is Gnostic or agnostic. Has in OCIA do you see something different?
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, I talked with I I talked with him the other day, and he would not call himself that anymore. Oh wow. Um praise God. Yeah, and it's just been like, yeah, it's been amazing, the community's good. Like he's his big thing is like, I just didn't understand how reasoned all of this was. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, keep going. I just had a an observation.
SPEAKER_00:And um so it was a great conversation. Yeah, he actually gave me some pointers of like, hey, your OCIA is uh a little bit oriented towards a Protestant's take, which makes sense. Like most of them are. Um, and I was so he's not um he's not anything at the moment, technically. Um yeah, at the moment, yeah, he was coming coming from nothing. Unbaptized? Yeah. Oh wow. Um factory settings. Factory settings.
SPEAKER_02:Factory settings, say producer Avery says. Which is like what what's interesting is like in that sense, like I'm thinking of is it Paul's words?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, he might be baptized.
SPEAKER_02:Or Peter's words.
SPEAKER_00:He might be baptized, but like who like yeah, just not in the didn't get any other updates after that.
SPEAKER_02:But it's interesting, like you you talk about go going for it on fourth down or punting. Like, is it Paul that says, What to me if I don't preach the gospel? You know, and so there's a certain sense of like at a certain point, like accompaniment does involve risk. Right. So, like, to be a good friend, even outside of the evangelistic moment, does mean doing something uncomfortable from time to time. Like to really love, it does mean making a sacrifice from time to time, right? If not all the time. Um, and so like it's interesting. Accompaniment has this like empathizing, listening, seeking to understand, maintaining the relationship, like the softer things, but it also has like taking a risk on exposing a blind spot, asking someone to step out. Into something that you know is good for them, right? And so, like, I don't know, I would just want to encourage that. That there's the the soft sides to accompaniment and the gentleness to it, but there's also the boldness that's needed for accompaniment. Like, if you're gonna ask someone to be a saint, like you're gonna have to call them to beyond where they are today. And it kind of needs both. Like you can't always lead with strong the the strong part.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Or at least, or at least if you want to have if you wanna up the percentages, you know, like, like sure, there's gonna be people that fall out of the sky and are just like all like and there's and there's moments where people are in and you have they don't even have a good reason. Yeah. And it's kind of fascinating to me. Like, there's there's there's other people in OCIA that are like, yeah. Um I saw someone wearing a Mary shirt the other day, or like this summer, and I just kind of got fascinated with it and started buying a lot of Mary stuff, and uh, and Catholics are like celebrated or more, and it was just like some Catholic thing. So I was like, I guess I should just go to a Catholic Mass and see. And and it was all like really emotionally driven. And the beauty of the mass was like, oh, this is where I want to be now. Yep. Um, and so it can be a completely unreasoned just straight, just straight grapes and straight, like deeper, like deep faith that can bring somebody too. And then that's a whole nother it's totally interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I I think we don't take enough risk, by the way, just thinking about it. Yeah. So like a different setting. I have this other friend who's like seems to be like they're reading their way in to the church. They're certainly reading a lot of early church and and all this stuff, but also their habits of a disciple are like very liturgical. They're praying the office. You know, it's like kind of fascinating, right? Um, and so we we we're at an event, and I introduce him to one of our other friends who's there who happened to be a former focus missionary. And so they're exhibiting all these like super Catholic like behaviors, and and she's just like, Hey, like, you might be more Catholic than most Catholics I know. Like, why aren't you Catholic yet? Just like first, like we just met. And so, like, frankly, feels like a risky conversation in its language. It really was. But what's the risk for her that he doesn't want to go there? Like, they're not even friends, they just met. You know what I mean? Like, there is it feels risky, it's just bold. There really was no risk there. And what was beautiful is his answer didn't it wasn't anything about truth and like the reason of the faith. His answer exposed prudence in sequencing of events and woundedness. Mm-hmm. That's what mine would have been. Like, like he was just like straight up honest, like, you know, probably someday I will be. Here's why I'm not right now. And he mentioned a couple of relationships where it would be hard and he wasn't prepared for that. And then mentioned, like, hey, normally, once I'm just after truth, and once I find out I go and I do whatever's right, regardless of consequences. But there's people who follow me now, and I feel like I should I'm asking Jesus to give me clarity on that. And I was like, whoa! Like if you would have not been bold, you wouldn't have let him be honest about these things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it just doesn't have to be that serious, right? Like she said it playfully. It was really playfully. In the same way with my guy, like it was just uh, you're here anyway. Yeah, you're here all the time. Why don't you come on in?
SPEAKER_02:And frankly, you know, out of both of them, it was very loving. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like hers was almost like, when are you coming home? Like you're already you're already coming home. Like you're already seeming like you're already doing the all the chores.
SPEAKER_00:Why don't you come on inside? I already mowed the lawn, did the gardening.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's pretty good. And yours was similar, like, hey, you're here all the time. Like, you want to come be a part of the real thing, like all the way.
SPEAKER_00:That's at least go on at least go on the go on the journey.
SPEAKER_02:Uh like the re like what I would say is like we're we're worried in our culture sometimes of being like that we need to be tolerant and we need to not offend and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Um, but like neither of I think in both those instances we just outlined, like that would be a lie that these statements would hurt their feelings. Because what both of them actually felt is they felt loved. They felt pursued.
SPEAKER_00:Um, another conversation, like, and that's especially real in Oklahoma, and something that like a conversation that I had this morning where um someone who's going through's family, like they announced to their family, like, hey, we're giving we're gonna give Catholicism their fair shake and we're barring uh Jesus appearing and saying, Don't do that, they're gonna become Catholic. Yeah, spoiler, he's not. Um uh and her and and the family was extremely volatile to that. Yeah. Um and like to the to the level of yeah, just like hurting relationships with them, with kids, with grandkids. Like it was it became and walking in that type of a situation, which happens a lot in Oklahoma. Like my famil like like my family, like when I first mentioned it, my dad was like, you're putting your salvation in jeopardy, you know, which is the which is the nice way of saying, I'm pretty sure you're my go to hell. You know? Um and and and and there's a and there's that type of uh force pulling and there there's a there's a support and love that needs to happen for those people because they're losing something. And Jesus is obvious Jesus is up front with us that that's gonna happen. He came to divide. Yeah. Um so he's up front about that, but that's something now we're called to do, and that's something that like I've been crazy proud of the cathedral community in that. Like that's that person's felt that already without like having that with me or whatever. Um so there's just there's an entire spectrum of things. Um, another point I want to make is, and I think this is especially more difficult for a cradle Catholic. You can tell me if I'm wrong. Um, I'll see Cradle Catholics like kind of fall into this rut of, well, this is truth and this is what I know, so this is truth. And they don't they don't look for ways to communicate it in a way for someone who isn't born and raised Catholic and has that same vocabulary. Like they're there, it's very much from a for Catholics by Catholics terminology standpoint, and I would just challenge that. Like to love is to understand, and that's why I love what you talked about earlier is understanding their points early on, but also just like feeding it to them where they're at, um feeding it to them where they're at, and from their perspective and being really aware.
SPEAKER_02:Like I don't think that you have to like necessarily soften or harden all the time as a result of that, but having awareness of it, and I've been seeing I think you're right on like I obvious I'm a critical Catholic, and I think the first time I was exposed to either the just uh not at conversion related, but just like combative questioning about the faith from friends, um kind of attacking, but also then later like legitimate curiosity. The first times, yeah, that was my internal processing was like uh I don't this is just what I've always known. Like this is true. How could you not think this is true? This is true because it's true. Like, what are you so like I think the encouragement I would say to if you're a cradle Catholic and you find yourself there, like pretty normal and honestly, like quite beautiful to be candid. Like, okay, you were given the truth and you were able to receive the truth, right? And you were in maybe an insulated environment like I was, where like, yeah, you just all all your community was Catholics, like you had the truth, there's really no reason to consider the other things. Um, and so like it'll take a little bit of time if you don't have the language or don't understand it, but like that time can happen. If there's a person in your life doing this with you right now, like the time is no. What go ahead and begin? Yeah, like have these open conversations and listen to them and then go to the other side, whether it's researching or a friend who has the vernacular or a friend who's converted before, like go ahead and inform yourself of some of these things. And frankly, like after a few seasons of experiencing this with other people, like you will have that conviction and your faith will grow and you'll know how to explain it better. Um, but sometimes it's like the art of paraphrasing. But I find if you listen well to the people coming with you and you ask the right questions, um and then you go back to the catechism or another good friend or your pastor, like and you engage that lovingly as a challenge, like you'll be formed in the process and be able to handle the next kind of conversation like that. By the way, catechism, the first time I encountered catechism is the best gift about it through it, because like if you read the catechism on the topic, you'll remind yourself of what the understanding is. But then in the footnotes is the scriptural and church father and counsel quotations of where that came from. And so, like with that, like, man, you're really empowered to to have the scriptural, you know, answers. Um, and you get the cheat sheet.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's really great. It's beautifully written. But yeah, just like putting yourself in the in the shoes of the other person, I think is is a habit that we don't do often enough. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and leading, leading with that type of empathy. And I think it all boils back to like we're not there to win an argument, like we're winning a soul. Yeah. Right? Like there's a book, there's a book that that says that. It's like how to win an argument without losing your soul, or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um and I think intercessory prayer is huge here. Just like a reminder that the Holy Spirit's the the agent of evangelization. Like the Holy Spirit is the person doing the work of transforming hearts, ours, and this person we're talking to. And like, yeah, like frankly, just being there, loving them, asking the right questions, praying, and then being bold when the Holy Spirit tells you to be bold. Hey, there's you got it.
SPEAKER_00:All you can do. Yeah, you're living in it. And here's the other part of the intercessory prayer that I really liked when you when you brought that up. Because there are people that are difficult to love. Yeah. And when you pray for them intercessorally, man, it gets easier. Yeah, it does get easier to love them. Um, and and kind of the whole thesis of what we've been going at here is that it kind of starts there where there's authentic love and care for that other person. And uh the more you if that's if that's the first step, if it's if it's a an antagonistic relationship right now, start praying for them. And it'll and you'll find that your conversion first leads to theirs. Oh yeah. That's very really well said. That stings. Yeah. That's like I don't that doesn't that doesn't sit well with me.
SPEAKER_02:Honestly, if you shift your emphasis to praying, so like in these conversations, we've talked about prophetic listening before. Yeah. But like if you shift your disposition, like, okay, I'm not gonna try to win. I I do want to have the prudence to say the true thing when I need to say it. But like if you shift to being like, okay, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna before I come, I'm gonna pray that the Holy Spirit take over. And I'm gonna kind of be ruminating on that request while I'm talking to this person. And when something comes up that jars me or bothers me or whatever, I have this active listening of like, ah Lord, I noticed this. So I'll just go back to a conversation I was in recently. I noticed that maybe confirmation bias is happening here. Like I hear him challenge, I hear my friend challenge about this text, and I hear him project a normal thing I've heard from a fundamentalist background. Instead of calling that out, I'm just like, Lord, is that a confirmation bias, or is there something I'm missing here? Like, let me pray and like help him and I to see what we need to see. And so, like, my action towards the thing I heard was more internal and with God than right back at the argument. And then my action to my friend was just another question at this moment. I was in the first conversation about these things. Um so I think that is appropriate. Whereas I might need to comment later. But for now, it was just like bringing the whole thing to prayer amidst it and asking for guidance in my next statement. But that act that kind of passive activity lets you take a counter step towards your s your default.
SPEAKER_00:It's so fun too.
SPEAKER_02:It is pretty fun, actually.
SPEAKER_00:You really get to grow. Yeah. And like it's it scratches like we've talked about before, the like bold I forget who said it, to the degree to the degree that you are converted interiorly to the same degree that you just have this desire to share. Um, which I think challenges a lot of people, that I that phrasing. Um but it it's uh you're your vocation is happening as a baptized person when you're when you're looking for and anticipating opportunities and being excited about where to go next. Um last point, because you mentioned intercessory prayer. Um and we've talked about a depth chart on here before, right? Pick your five. Like you can think of five people who have expressed some amount of curiosity, whether it's in whether it's like the antagonistic flavor or right in there, or maybe they're just they already they texted you and asked to go to mass with you next week, wherever that is. Um writing their names down and praying with it and putting it in a prominent place within your schedule or within your home where that's consistently what's happening prayer-wise, just like changes changes the way that you go about it. Absolutely. I love that challenge. Um so that would be my main challenge. If you don't know what a depth chart is, look up like focused depth chart, and I'm sure you'll find one. Um, but you could make your own too. That's it. Uh a depth chart is essentially like if we're putting it into like businesses terms, it's a Kanban board. Can ban? Uh can oh, is it is supposed to be Kanban? Oh, I can. Um, I don't know. Yeah. It's yeah, um it's it's but you just where you move people from one step to the next and you kind of have a sense of where they're at.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's a discern, it's an active discernment. Yeah, to your point, it's not unlike a sales pipeline. Yeah. Um, but it's also an active discernment of like, okay, conversion seems to be this way normally. Where are they? Are they just like up here at Curious? Or are they really seeking the truth and they're down there here? Like, I want to drop my nets and follow Jesus in the way he tells me to. Yeah. And so like our action will be different depending on where they are. And that's something to take to the Holy Spirit to know. And at some point down that process, you actually ask. Because like the can be like if I'm thinking about depth chart too, there's like there's a couple different versions, but one of them is like as simple as um, you know, if you're evangelizing, and then like what level of discipleship they might be, right? But then there's also like what the trans the conversion process looks like on the whole thing. But at some point, like when someone's like in Ose or intentionally in discipleship or whatever, they actually assess with you like, yeah, I I believe that I'm a disciple here, and I really want to make more disciples. So at some point, it's not just discernment from you praying, it's actually them saying, like, yeah, I'm here and I want to go here. And that's a really beautiful tool.
SPEAKER_00:Last nerd out thought because I was just thinking about this. Like death charts as they are have everything to do with that person's relationship with we'll call it the truth for simplicity, and like where they're at in their in their in their response to it. I think that there should be another axis. Like we're just measuring on one axis of measurement of like, but I think it should be more like what if we went with a Cartesian coordinate system where it's like centered and fancy. Yeah, I know. This is just my engineering brain happening. But like to the same degree, like, where's my where's relationship on the human level?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, where's my relationship with this person?
SPEAKER_00:With this person. Yeah. Because I think that that should play a a role in like at the same thing as far as as far as an interesting tracking thing. That's just a mute.
SPEAKER_02:That's actually interesting of DOE. If it's kind of old school at this point, but so I'm sure plenty of us haven't read it or could do a revisit. Sherry Widell has the for me intentional disciples thing. And so she has the the conversion spectrum. I forget what she calls it. Yeah. But this isn't the depth chart. I've written out a depth chart, and I have some friends who are that have that process of conversion written out and then like the depths of discipleship written out. But when she's explaining it in some of her talks, or I think even in the book, she kind of does talk about what you're talking about, at least for the thresholds of conversion. That's what she calls it, thresholds of conversion. There you go. Um, she says, like when she's talking about each step, she's actually sharing that. Well, ultimately, this is supposed to be like the litmus test for someone's progressive coming into a relationship with Jesus. The reality is, like, when we're talking about curiosity or trust, which are up at the top, she's like, it could be curiosity in your life, like the person that they're approaching, curiosity in the church, curiosity in Jesus, and with trust, could be trust with you, trust with Jesus, trust with the church. Like she's kind of clear that there's multiple at the top end of this funnel, there's multitudes of things happening. At the end of the day, no one's gonna convert themselves to Jace. So that's good. Yeah, super good. You know, yeah, like you don't want any part of that. So bottom of the funnel, it's certainly not, you know, a cartousian thing. But like I think at the top, like you're right. It's really helpful to discern like, does this person trust me? Like, have I earned the right to be heard and trust?
SPEAKER_00:Do I live a life of this has this person met the Jesus that's active within me? Yeah, the Trinity that's active within me.
SPEAKER_02:Do I live a life of Christian witness where someone would be curious about why I live this way? They would ask me of the occasion of the reason for my choice.
SPEAKER_00:Like four more podcasts with those questions. We gotta land the plane. Yep, yep. But uh, but yeah, this has been fun, James. This has been Render Catholics. I'm Jace. And I'm James. See you next time.