FACT(s) of Mission | Part 2

In this episode, Jayce and James explore how the FACT framework (Faithful, Available, Contagious, Teachable) serves as both a barometer for disciple readiness and a personal examination tool for those leading others toward Christ.

Have you ever wondered what truly makes someone ready to be a disciple-maker? This episode dives deep into the first half of the powerful FACT framework – Faithful and Available – that serves as both a barometer for discipleship readiness and a personal examination tool for spiritual growth.

• Faithfulness includes alignment with Church teaching, honest acknowledgment of struggles, and consistent striving toward holiness
• Being faithful requires humility and obedience rather than elevating personal opinions above Church teaching
• True availability doesn't mean an empty calendar but rather a heart oriented toward what truly matters
• Availability means being present in the moment, putting down phones, and prioritizing prayer despite competing demands
• Our availability or lack thereof reveals "who we are bowing to" - what we truly worship
• A "schedule conversion" may be necessary if we're too busy for prayer and silence
• Seeking counsel from trusted friends provides essential perspective on our blind spots
• Making even small adjustments can significantly align our lives more closely with Christ's call

************

Links and other stuff from the show:
Pastoral Letter, "On the Unity of the Body and Soul:" archokc.org/pastoral-letters
Red Dirt Catholics Email Address: reddirtcatholics@archokc.org
The Book "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission" (Digital and Print): Amazon
The Social Dilemma: https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Daily Examen Prayer: https://bit.ly/309As8z
Lectio Divina How-To: https://bit.ly/3fp8UTa

Transcript

Jonas Brothers Trip: Highs And Lows

SPEAKER_00 0:30

So I went to a Jonas Brothers concert this last Labor Day weekend with Danielle. Some would call it a baby moon, right? Danielle is in love with the Jonas Brothers. She loves Nick. Uh that's her favorite one. I'm sorry. That's yeah, that's the thing. Um, but everybody well, everyone our age watched it going up. And we had an we had an amazing trip. We like drove down halfway. Huh? I didn't watch it. You didn't watch it? Well, people can tell. Um so we went down. We had a great time, stayed like half drove halfway, stayed and I went to Mass in Ardmore, uh, kept going on. Uh so we had a great, delightful weekend. We get to the we get to the concert though, and I just start taking L's, right? Oh, and in a previous take that didn't work out, one of their most famous songs is like Love Bug, Sucker For You was more recent. That was a really good one. I like that one. I would I was like it song. That Sucker For You did. Okay. Sucker for you. I love that song.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

So you really do like the Jonas Brothers.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I like that song. There's a lot of their songs. I I was actually like it's kind of been delightful, like the the levity that Danielle and I have been able to have surrounding the Jonas Brothers leading up to this concert the last few months. It's been like she would like play a song. Like we've been listening to them a lot because we're about to go to the concert. You want to know what you're talking about or singing about. And she would play a song, and I was like, dude, who listens? Like, why are we listening to this?

SPEAKER_03 2:01

This is like would you like mimic the song and terrible song? And like sing it terribly.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I don't remember it because it was that that not catchy. Uh but so but what we get there, and I'm like, all right, do you want me to drop like nine months pregnant, Danielle? So also over the shadow of it is like we could have a Jonas Brothers concert, baby. Like that was that was in the realm of possibility. That would have that would have been terrible. We uh so I asked her if she wants to drop it off. No. So we walk on down, and it's been you can tell how long it's been since we've been to like a really big concert. Um, because we get there and Danielle doesn't have like a translucent purse or whatever. And the guy's like, Did you go did you Uber here? And I should have just said yes, but I was like, No, and he's like, All right, you gotta go take that bag back to your car. And it was a long walk. So I Danielle stands there, waits for me. I walk back to the car, and like I'm getting a sense of the ratio, and it's like 10 to 1 females to dudes. Oh, sure. This thing. Um, which I expected. Go walk to the car, walk back, then it's time.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

And like only suckers like you that are the one dude too. Guys who love their wives enough.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Exactly that. And a lot of kids, like a lot of people brought their kids, like six-year-old kids, which was interesting too considering. But um, we get there, we wait probably 45 minutes in line to eat food because we're like, oh, we'll just eat food at the concert, it's no big deal. Bad idea. Danielle like went to the bathroom one time while she was there. I was nine months pregnant because the lines were so long for the women's restroom, it was insane. Um and the reason why I said yes to this concert in the first place is because it was supposed to have boys like girls, all American Rejects, and the Jonas Brothers. I was like, you know what? I love those first two a lot. Let's do it. But we get to the concert, uh, and I already took this L from like having to do all this extra walking. Boys like girls play, they do great. I had a great time, and then I'm ready for all American rejects. I'm like, all right, this is good. About 20 minutes goes by, you know, everybody's setting up for the next thing, and the Jonas brothers walk out. And it's not all American Rejects. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

And the crowd goes wild, and James.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, and everyone is so happy, and I just kind of just want to sit down. I'm just deflated and like have to bounce back. Um, Danielle's just like bouncing up and down, having a blast. She was sore because she danced so much uh at this thing. And I was just like, all right, I'm at a Jonas Brothers concert. Let's let's see, let's see how it goes. Let's see how it goes. Or let's go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Which songs did you sing along to?

Crowd, Lines, And Concert Curveballs

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well, oh yeah, I definitely did. I mean, you're there. Um okay uh nice and uh I wish we had some footage of you singing along to these songs. Definitely don't as I like look at my cell phone. Um uh and so it goes through there's this DJ that everyone really likes called Marshmallow that was there, and it was like a visual experience, like during like the halftime show of the Jonas Bush, because they played for like an hour and ten minutes and they needed a break. It was a visual experience, like the amount of lasers and stuff getting shot up and stuff getting lasers shooting off of the stuff that got shut up. Like it was it was a light show, and the he played a few songs, but I mean it was a guy in like basically a Home Depot bucket hat with the face drawn on it, going like Yeah, keep going, everybody, you know, not my thing. Um uh so we so I lose there, and that we don't have all American rejects. We have a good time, starts raining. It's an outdoor venue, it's a Dose X Pavilion. We I was smart enough to buy tickets underneath the pavilion parts, so we weren't getting rained on during the concert, but the walk back, the mile walk back was in the rain. No punch and no umbrella. What? No umbrella. We weren't we weren't smart. Um that's not my strong suit, thinking of details like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

And this is the intro to an episode about uh liturgical music. And I'm just kidding. Yeah, we don't have any of that.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

So it was a great time, but the last thing I'll say about the Jonas Brothers and was like Danielle's like, this is a top five concert for me, and they they sounded really good. They were statues, like they did not move around, there was not a lot of showmanship with it. Interesting, like at least in what I've come to expect when I've gone to a concert. And then and Danielle said, like in previous ones she'd been to, that was her third Jonas Brothers concert, by the way. Uh they're doing backflips and all this stuff, and like I don't think Joe picked up a guitar, but you know what? He didn't have to, and I think he was smart for knowing that because they have like the cameras in on him, and the cameras have gotten really, really good, so you can see facial expressions well. All he would have to do is be singing and just like look up at the camera and go, and that was it. And the whole crowd would just go, ah, you know. Oh my gosh. It was like Did you throw up? What did you throw up? Multiple times. Multiple times. So that was that was my that was my weekend. What what do you got going on?

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Oh playing a little bit of well, coaching a little bit of kids' flag football, watching, watching the kids grow and learn baseball. It's been pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

How how old is this flag football squad?

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Uh we've got third grade squad and kindergarten squad.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Right. And this is what this is the heart of the matter.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

I understand third grade.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Kindergarten? Like I'm trying to imagine Peter trying to play an organized sport in kindergarten outside of soccer where they where he runs towards the ball and then as he gets closer to the ball, he runs away from the ball. It's like a magnet. Yeah. Um So tell me what kindergarten football is like. So you never pass.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Uh you can. Um But you don't. Yeah, the development's not there. That's right. The um you really want to have a good run game. Uh the we're pretty stacked uh of a team by accident. So like I was working on getting a team with some kids in my son Theo's class, and like there's a bunch of people interested to have a whole team because you have to sign the whole team up with this league. But then they kind of started dropping like flies as the sign-up deadline came on. So I'm committed to a team, have four people, you need seven to have a roster. And then there was another team that happened too that was largely like St. Eugene Boys, and uh it was kind of a cool accident. I didn't know that. But the league director asked us if we could merge. And so Coach Tony Shannon Bohr had this crop of guys and our crop of guys. And how kids' football really normally looks is like you've got the ones who like have the aptitude want to play it really bad, and like the couple dads that really want to, and you've got everyone else who's interested in trying it out, right? And so you've got this spectrum of like which way is north and south on the football field, and I think it's fourth and fourth thing. We needed a halfback pitch. Yeah, and like so there's a big variation. Well, because our teams merged, we have probably twice the amount of kids that like are really excited about football and get what we're doing. And so that's like a nice little luxury. But I think the main thing about kindergarten football is just um Is it just to whichever team has the fastest kit? Uh in some part, but I mean if your team can get it is.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

It 100% is.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

I actually think it's the team it what essentially you can see a big distinction in the intentionality of coaches for kindergarten football, to be candid. So like if you keep it simple and you focus on the fundamentals in your practice template, and your play set in the game is like one formation, six plays, you'll probably win more games because you the variation is low for the kids and they can succeed because they can digest that sort of stuff. And you got two coaches on the field, so like you can help like get them lined up, and like one coach can tell the non-major players that are in the play, like remind them what they're doing on this side. And so we have like you know, some halfback dives. We basically have two halfbacks, guys out on the edge, center and quarterback. Yeah, you're like the wishbone. Yeah. And so, you know, misdirections key. Um, so like fake handoffs and and how and when the quarterback turns is key. Um, kids selling the fake. Um, the alley the alley drill off.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Watching kindergartners bite on a fakes has to be one of the funnest things.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

It is fun. Like it's more fun. It's more fun to watch a bite on a fake than to like run by a bunch of kids that aren't ready, you know? Like that's like, oh man, I wish like they could kind of their coach could get them together on defense so they'd have a better chance. But like I I was proud of the ref. Like he, as you could tell, we were really like a little more put together and it was the other team hadn't had as many games. He had us back off on defense like four or five yards and kind of create an extra gap just to give them some more buffer. But you can't rush the ball unless you're like seven yards back and one guy can rush. So there's some mercy rules built into the game at that age that make it work well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

But um I think that that I think a little bit like flag football, that's the same thing. Seven seconds and seven yards back or something.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah, I mean, as you keep going, that's always there. But uh, it's really quite fun. I think the biggest thing, like virtue-wise, is just having kids learn how to listen. Um, and then like parents and coaches being really patient. The key to a good kindergarten football team is like four to six dads being like engaged in practice.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Breaking the norms. Yeah. I want to know. See now see now I want to like host a tryout where I get uh how many kids are playing at a time?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Uh there's six on the field.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Six on the field. I want five, like on a scale of three out of ten athletic level, I want five threes, and I want one generational talent. And I would want to put up that team against your team and it would and see who would win. My money would be on genuinely, having watched a lot of this, and like I see it, I like I was talking with the robotics team at Bishop John Carroll the other day, and they had they had a game. The other team had one guy who was six foot eighth grader. Yeah. And they they won. Like there wasn't anything they could do. They couldn't tackle them. There wasn't there's no amount of prep that could happen. Like if you are a physical specimen in football, and and that kind of and that that's why college football and the NFL become so popular is because it's finally not about exactly that.

Rainy Exit And Performance Takeaways

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Um I think in kindergarten that's true. I think once when you're in s from second to third grade, if you're a well-trained defense, it's not true. Really? Yeah, because it's a good idea. Yeah, well, because the kids, the bar like sure, you might have one outstanding specimen, but like the middle pack, you know, the middle two-thirds, if most of your team's in that middle two-thirds of talent, like they're all about the same speed. And so, like, if you know how to break down, if your corners know that their job is to let no one on the outside and the guys set up behind the corners, whether you're calling them safeties or linebackers, yeah, know how to break down, put nose in front of belly button, and you're pushing into each other, it's really hard for even like a really great athlete alone to get out of it. To get by four guys over and over. Um and uh typically I would say the really great athlete isn't as we're gonna talk about it today, isn't as teachable.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Um and so there's there's some really minor things like the really great athlete tends to reverse too much.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, because he's like, oh, is that wrong?

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Because he can. But really the best trick in the game is to beat him with your speed initially, make one momentum move and beat him again. But the kid, because he's used to beating people, we'll end up losing so many yards.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I just want to recognize to uh to our listeners that this is the longest I've ever gotten James to uh to do banter for before we're getting into the real topic. And I'm very proud right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

So we'll just find just talk about just talk to them about it. It's really great. You can use you can use sports for so much good for these kids, and it's just a great way to be with them too, and like know the other families that you run with, especially if you're like taking a school team or a parish team, and like you can you can l use it for leisure. But actually, we have these books here. We might do a podcast in Restoration of Christian culture. He a lot of people say, like, you know, you can use sports as discipl discipleship, you can use sports to develop virtue. But even the innate reality of the awareness of the senses needed for sport are an important part of formation. I mean, if you just think about it, if you have faculty over your senses, what that can mean in the spiritual life. Um and so, like that like really body awareness and that you're hurting and all these things, like having going through what that means. Yeah, is actually a really important thing to learn and be in crisis zone as a kindergartner. Like sports will put you in a crisis mode.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Because you can't handle the stimuli and you don't know what to do and you're overwhelmed. It's like to learn that, be loved through that, be coached, to grow past that stretch, how long it takes you to get in a crisis zone again. Like if young men in particular, I think, can learn that frequently and often as they're going through adolescence, like this is very good for them. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

That's true. Uh let's pray. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Lord, thank you for James and for this podcast and for all of our listeners. We pray that our conversation uh ultimately reflects you. Uh as we uh finish the last two pieces of fact, I pray that you'll be with here in our hearts and give us the peace that you desire. The peace that created the world. In your name we pray. Amen. Amen. Father, son, holy spirit. So last time we were talking about faithful, and available, and this time we're talking about contagious and teachable um and teachable. Um like contagious is probably my favorite one to talk about um mostly because it when we think of when we think of people and we when we think of evangelization, we think especially if someone's particularly uh introverted or um or afraid of public speaking or hasn't isn't a great conversationalist or whatever have you, isn't care that charismatic. It's it's probably one of the most common tricks in the book of like, oh well, I I'm not the right guy, you know, for something like that. But mission is for everyone. And I contest that contagious does not mean charismatic.

Youth Sports, Flag Football, And Formation

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah. I think that um I've heard people say like charismatic is kind of a consideration within contagion. And I think that could be worth noting, right? Like someone who that might be like a working competency, like we've talked about, or like a working genius that someone has like if they're if they are charismatic, they can also have like a superabundant contagion in some sense. But just you could also be charismatic and be a snake oil salesman, right? So like And hate them. It's sort of a neutral thing. Yeah. Um That's a really great point. And uh but but I think maybe what you're getting at to me, and we've talked about some friends who it embody this well, but like contagion, I feel like, is both a set of skills and formation, but also like a disposition of the heart as well. Like you can have this contagious reality. Um if your heart's in the right spot. Um but uh the other thing I would say about contagious is like just to ponder what the meaning like what that word means in a vacuum, like contagious. Like okay, I I'm going to catch what you have here. Or I'm going to, you know, this is going to be sticky. Um but uh like because in the backdrop, fact like to reset the scene, fact you know, focus talks about it, other evangelical movements within the church talk about it. Uh I think there was a book back in the day called Four Signs of a Dynamic Catholic. So we can use it for discerning, like, okay, this person probably has the four ingredients to kind of invite to be on mission with you, but we can also use it to kind of as a litmus test against ourselves. Like, am I weak in one of these areas that's like limiting my fruitfulness as a disciple? Um and so like contagious, like I don't know. If a person's contagious, you kind of naturally want to be around them, right? Like you're drawn to them.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah, I mean it's kind of something you want to like what kind of people do you want to be around? Like I feel like I wonder I wonder how much vi real variation if we took a large sample size, like a Pew Research study, and you know, gave people ten options if the same tame ten positive options as far as qualities of people that you want to spend your time with. I wonder I wonder how much variation there would be in there.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

That'd be a really fun poll to generate, actually.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Yeah. I don't just playfully. I don't I'd almost like to have uh input your own, you know, 10 words first. Yeah. And then and then next, like so the follow-up questions are like this or that words. And then some other ones are like a list, and you rank the list, you know, and then you kind of see how all those things are.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

I think what you see in the social media more than everything these days, and what you see in like when I live in all of these different studies about Gen Z when we're planning our newest youth group thing, it's more about like genuine.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Are they real?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Are they real is the first question that I think everybody everybody asks. Now, how how good you are at deciding I don't care, I want to love them early on, versus where you sit there and you're kind of pondering it. Um, that's that's a piece of it of that genuineness. Oh, that's what people want to know. Yeah. Um that's something that we're trying to sniff out. And for some reason, a snake oil salesman people have a pretty good sense for a lot of the time, unless unless they're just kind of lacking in that particular area.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Yeah, or if they're a rose-colored glass kind of person, you know sometimes, sometimes I can overlook that.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah, everybody believes that, but there's definitely other times where um uh where it's just being real with the other person, being genuine and like being okay with like being okay with your faults, being okay like like humility is probably like humility in the true sense. Not a false humility thing where you're just like you can say, I'm good at this, I'm not good at this.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Um I also think uh the sense that they care. Like, do they care about me?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

I know I know they care about me.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah. How do you when someone's talking to you, how do you get that sense when you're um what are markers of that?

SPEAKER_03 21:18

In modernity, the non-use of the cell phone in front of the person they're talking to, and sometimes you know, someone's state of what they're doing, like if you're in in the middle of a work day, like that's unavoidable to some degree, depending on what their job is. But um I think the level of attention they give you, right? You know, they're they're fully present to the moment, present to you. There's sometimes people who are great at being contagious, in my opinion, like when you're with them, you feel like you're the only person in the world that matters. And definitely the only person in the room when they're having a conversation with you. Um

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Let's do let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Let's talk about that. What are the what are the behaviors that that classify that? So not looking at the phone, that's like a in my mind that's like a that's the bare minimum.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Have you ever have you ever caught yourself asking a question you don't care the answer about? All the time. Right. Okay. So someone who's really exemplary from their heart, not just the skill of asking questions, but from their heart of being contagious, they care about the answer to that question. And so there's an active listening occurring typically. So they they've asked the question. You said the thing, they didn't talk about what they wanted to talk about next. They asked another question, or they sat with that question. Often they're looking you in the eye. Not always an introvert might be thinking about what you said and looking away, but um, I would think active listening, that isn't just the technique of active listening, right? Like they legitimately are curious and want to know you. Huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

How do you think you uh the curiosity thing is like striking me right there? Like that has to be something that I'm sure there's some personality traits that play into whether you have to, you're naturally gifted there or you it's a learned expression. But being naturally curious about a person is something that you have to develop within yourself. And that really kind of like if we wanted to really get spiritual about it, like naturally curious about them because they're they're a face of Christ. Yeah, they're made in the image of God. Made in the image of God. Like that's the that's the natural way to go get there. But when you're in a conversation, and maybe it's with somebody that's not on the surface pulling you in for whatever reason, or is there where there's not much of an attraction relationally there. How do you how do you develop that? Or do are when you're in are you naturally thinking about I need to be more curious about this person?

SPEAKER_03 24:00

No, no. I think you could be, like if you're trained in sales or if you've maybe read some evangel evangelization tactics or texts or whatever, or a good book on um EQ or conversation, I'm sure you could you know pull some tricks pull some tools out of the tool belt. But but I think that like for me, especially when I know like I'm in a mode of needing to encounter another person, which more and more is everyone. Um it's just this conviction that there's greatness here. You know, that this is a beloved person of God, and I want to know why. You know?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah.

Virtue, Crisis Zones, And Prayer

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Like I want to know the greatness. I want to like appreciate the thing about this person. And I think we've talked about magnanimity before, but it's it's somewhat that. Like I want to have a great heart towards this person. And so it's not, it's less like you are interviewing this person. Yeah, it's not for the purpose of judge. This isn't a forensic thing that I'm doing of like knowing everything about this person. But it's like, I just want to know what this person loves that I might also love. Or I just want to know what gives this person life. Or um, and it's like for me, I actually like one struggle I have in this area is I get um I start to lose life in a conversation if we stay in surface level things. Um like I'm not good at shooting the breeze all the time. Don't get me wrong, I can hang, but just I don't that's not the place I'd prefer. But some people like that's the place they are. And so in fact, if we're if we can find the in-road from small talk to something they love, then now that cure we found something they love to talk about. And when someone talks about something they love, that's life-giving, actually. Like even if I don't care generally speaking about I'll just use an example with you, I I'm really not that thrilled about um disc golf. Right. But like hearing you talk about this golf, which we still need to go, by the way. I've got some openings on the horizon, actually, thanks to some. We'll handle that off there. Um or we'll have a meet and greet Peter Catholic. If I'm with Alex Sanchez, for example, right, who does who models this stuff well, and he has never played a lick of disc golf, he's like, he's gonna be honest. Like, hey, I'll be honest, like never played disc golf. Like, how what what do you like about disc golf? And he's gonna do he's gonna have that big look on his face that lights up a room that because he's like he can tell you you like it, and he wants to know you and love you. And so he's just asking the next question, like, oh, that's cool. What's it take to be good at disc golf? Yeah. And so then he'll start telling me, like, and what's for me curiosity is like this there's this self-feeding cycle is like not only am I trying to love them, but also like, since I know nothing about disc golf, you're going to teach me something that's gonna open my eyes to a way of thinking about something. Like I'm actually probably gonna learn that's gonna apply somewhere else in my life in like this fun way that I can you have the knowledge. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

So this is so good. Um I'm gonna try to call Alex right now. Okay. And uh what you just described actually happened between him and I'm that actual conversation him and I about disc golf. And I'm like, we gotta try. We gotta try. Let's see where here we let's see, let's see. Gosh, it would be embarrassing if he didn't answer right.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Or it just shows great human formation that he's focused on the thing he should be focused on.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

That is true. That is true. I'm start I'm starting to be a little bit worried. There he is. We got him. We got him. Alex, dude, you're live on the podcast. We're we're we're talking about you right now. So actually hold him closer to the microphone. Oh, okay. Alex, say hi.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

What's up, boys? It's good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

All right. And girls. And girls. Yeah, I like your stash. Your stash is going good. I didn't want to call you guys girls, but yes, that that does carry on.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Well, Jace did go to a Jonas Brothers concert.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Stop making fun of me for going to Brothers. Stop making fun of me for the Jonas Brothers, dude. Like, I love my wife. Sue me. All right, all right, Alex. So I'm gonna take you back to a time where you and I were hanging out. We're talking about one of the the topic or the the skill that you have, and it's just an innate personality trait of yours, is that you have a really natural, genuine curiosity about the things that other people care about. Right? And you can look at them, and man, you're like, when when you're talking to you, you're like, man, I feel like I know that this guy wants to do and wants to learn everything about what I'm doing. And it's not for any particular reason other than he's delighting in me right now. Like that's just very obvious. Uh so you do that, and you did that. We were talking about James was like, yeah, let's talk about disc golf for a second. And and I remember and it made me remember the time I was over at your house. I didn't bring my discs in my bag, but uh but I was disc golfing all the time at that at that stage, I still do, but uh and we just started talking about disc golf, and you did exactly that. But do you do you remember what happened next?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

What? No, you remember. You remember what happened next.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Uh I don't I don't want to assume it's when I blew up.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Say that again. You broke out. You broke up.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

I I don't I don't want to assume that's when I blew out my shoulder throwing.

From FA To Contagious: Framing Mission

SPEAKER_00 29:39

So immediately I like I talk about disc golf and he's asking me all these questions, like what do these discs do and all this stuff. And he was like, Hey, you know there's like disc golf baskets in my backyard, right? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, Yeah, they're all over the school right here. And I was like, Oh my gosh, all my discs are in my bag. He's like, let's go, let's go right now. And we went out and like we started, we started competing. And he was still asking questions of like the different the form and the different things, and this is just like my favorite things. I'm like, I'm having a blast. Um, and Alex hasn't played disc golf in a really long time, but Alex is also really competitive, which is great for my personality. Uh he's he's laughing about it, right? He's he's just laughing. Um, and uh so we keep going, and I'm throwing it far because I've played a lot of disc golf. Um, but and Alex is just like trying so hard to like, he's putting everything, he's like, he's looking like he's about to like run track and field, do the high jump, you know.

unknown 30:44

I was putting my toes into every throw, dude. You know, with everything I had into every throw.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah. Uh and so eventually Alex like absolutely blew out his shoulder. And is it still sore? This was a year ago.

unknown 31:00

Uh it's sore if I think about throwing the frisbee with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

So, Alex, like we wanted to ask the big question for you here is like, what is where does that come from for you? Because I've had multiple people say that about you. Like, is that just a natural thing? Is that something that somebody else imparted on you? Like, where does that come from? How do you how do you embody that so well?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I've I've actually never thought about like where does that come from? But I think when you're talking about like delight and and like the genuine interest, I mean honestly, the very first thing that comes to mind is that it is probably just a gift from God because when I think of traits that people have that feel like they are they come naturally or easily for that person while other people work at them, that sounds like a gift. Um I think the first thing that comes to mind is like that that probably is just a gift. Um because it's not something I've thought very much about. It is something at the moment like when someone's talking about something like an interest or something they're excited about or their work or what they do that we get or I I do just have this like surge of just interesting curiosity and like uh energy just like if I want to know like that sounds awesome. That sounds way cooler than you're letting on, you know? And so I I love I do just generally love hearing those things and it guys, it feels it feels really cool to even have that picked up on. So we talked about that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah, yeah, these are some great insights for our podcast. It's just a gift. I'm just made awesome by God. That's Alex Sanchez. Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, go in and go. I have a question for you. Oh, James has a question.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Alex, can you hear me?

unknown 33:07

I can. I'm still reeling for the last question.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Okay. Um the question I have with regard to the gift. Before you met Jesus, like before you received his mercy, did this come did this come out of you as often?

unknown 33:26

I mean, that's a great question. I I guess now I would add gift, but I think it's also I think it becomes also from healing because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Did you say healing?

unknown 33:40

Yeah, okay.

Charisma vs. True Contagion

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I think when I was younger, there was like this sense, like this inclination, this belief that like you know, people again, like I really wanted to have friends, I was really, you know, I didn't want to be left out, I wanted to belong. So I I did have this sense of like you know, people want to share about themselves, people that don't necessarily want to hear, you know, about me. You know, want to talk about their weakness or their thoughts. And so there was this kind of wounded tendency to to be inclined to give someone else like the space to talk, you know, or or share something. And I would defer the the talking space to the other person uh to make a friend or to have a connection. And I think I think there was a maybe three or four or four years after a conversion, I could have this little moment of being in a group setting with a couple of individuals and and finding myself like you know, cutting myself off, not sharing something about my life and be like, oh anyways, you know, what about you? What about you? And I don't want to think I don't want to talk too much. What are we doing? In that moment, kind of in this mysterious way that that kind of you know, part of me that begins to kind of like an unravel of I really believe I had something genuine to share, something genuinely good and interesting with other people.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Like I I believe I have something to offer and something to share.

unknown 35:37

It was just a total like gift. I I could I'm happy to share something, but I am so interested with what you're saying, and it doesn't take away anything from what I have or don't have either.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

I do think a gift, but I think also a source of healing too. So it's a really good time to pick up on that.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Cool. Thanks, Alex. Love you, brother. Thanks for thanks for bopping in, man. We look forward to the day that we could get you to commit to be on the podcast with us.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

This is amazing. Same same time next week. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. All right.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Later, baby.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

So it's it's interesting. Uh there's some humility contained in him not of attributing it all to God. But what what I love about some of that conversation, you used the word delight. Alex repeated it and talked about kind of this inner impulse of curiosity, like this impulse to learn more from the other. I like his point of distinction later. Like I could I know vignettes about Alex being sharing community with him about who he was before. Yeah. You know, and I would suspect many of us know this person. Like Alex was probably, well, there's clearly some woundedness, he was probably comfortable being outgoing in front of people and like being like in the center doing something cool. Yeah. Like he's probably like in his happy spot there. Um, but then he's sharing something that few people knew probably at the time, that he had a like a woundedness of not being confident in certain moments, right? In who he was. Yeah. And so what's what's different about Alex now is that his deferment of self in a conversation is this great act of humility because he has something in his heart and this deep love with Jesus he does want to share with this person and some convictions. And honestly, because he listens well, probably some insights that would really help the person, right? But he's he's discerned and God's naturally given him a preference to hear from the other person first and to spend some time delighting in them. And so, like, I actually think the other person can like what happens for someone who's contagious is they actually have this it factor. Like they have a coolness about them. And that coolness can be expressed in all sorts of ways, right? Like Alex is a good looking guy, right? Like he, you know, there there's things about him that are attractive in who he is, right? Like sure is symmetrical, hair's cool, he just looks kind of cool, right? He's fine, you know. We don't have to puff him up too much, but like that's there, right? Well, there's there's another friend I'm thinking of who like doesn't share those same visible gifts, but like when you hear him speak, you're like, wow, that brain, like I wish I knew what he knew, you know? Like, and and so like same thing. I'm like, wow, like he's cool. Like, I want to hear more. But most of the time when we're talking, he is learning from me. Yeah. And so I know he's cool because he's shared a little bit and there's something more I want to know. But my experience sitting with both these men is like they actually would rather spend more time pulling things out of me, learning from me before they speak. And all I want to do is actually like learn from them. So it's like this because I can sense that they have something I want and I'm desirous of, like, so let's pretend I'm a recipient of someone, let's say like I'm not there, like I'm not with Jesus, I'm not, I'm really insecure in my life, there's lots of sin, and I'm around these two holy men, and I want to learn from them. Like I'm innately drawn to them because of their interior life, because of how they carry themselves and all these things. And my experience looking at them is not them telling me why I need to be drawn to them, but it's them looking upon me. It's them delighting, it's them really acting out God the Father's delight. In Zephaniah, early in the scripture, early in the book, the prophet says, Um, the Lord your God delights in you. He sings over you like one who sings at festival days. So he just like sell God celebrates each of his people in a uniquely personal way. And so what out if you've ever been with Alex or someone like him, when he's asking these questions, he's not like interrogating or like trying to get to the bottom of something, and you never feel uncomfortable. He's asking from this posture of like, let me see the whole picture because I love what I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah. I love what I'm seeing. That's a great way to put it. And or at the very least, like, I'm so curious about what I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

You're interesting, is the message he's conveying.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Yeah. There's something. You're worth it. You're worth spending time around.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah. I love how these podcasts we just keep like like we're not going to get to teachable today. Oh, we're not. Uh no. We're just in contagious. Yeah, we're we're uh but so we can stay in contagious a little bit more. I just feel like there's so much to talk about that we keep thinking we do two, like we're only gonna do half of teachable next time. You know, the the rate.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Yeah, we're slowing down. Yeah. Honestly, teachable, like I mean, I might need to like go to confession or something first or or whatever, but like teachable, there is gonna be a lot to think about that's like really important for discipleship.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Self- self-introspective.

Curiosity, Presence, And Cell-Phone Etiquette

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Um yeah, let's say with contagious, like I I actually had a friend tell me, like, yeah, Alex has the if factor. And he and he started describing all these things we're talking about with contagious. Yeah. And I just think, you know, this contagious personality is drawing you in, but they're also not doing it by it being about them. Like it's about you and it's about the Lord, primarily, right? And I think that's a really beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Um So switching gears just from that, unless you want to did you have a thought you want to finish. So that's the the the core of where where Alex was coming from there is like this person is interesting, you know, it's just it's present like to what's right in front of it. And that's that's a learned, that's you know, gift for him, a little bit, like healed from a wound, perfected in the Lord, like we could talk about all of those things forever. I want to talk a little bit about the super low-hanging fruit stuff. Yeah. Because those are like those are like anybody can do those things, but like I think that there's just to like pull the veil back on for everybody of like, if you think about the people who are just friends and why you hang out with them, what was contagious about them for you. Honestly, one of the first things about the contagiousness thing is uh is proximity is being it is spending time and we talked about this is a little bit within it available, but I think it's different. Of like almost everybody's like, yeah, that's this guy's my best man, he was my roommate in college. You know, we got paired together at the dorm. Or we got, and we have this tendency to really just kind of pick whoever's there for us. Um, and sometimes they're there for us because they were forced to put live there by OU housing management or um or they choose to be there. And that's what I'm kind of going after.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Yeah. If you're gonna catch the flu, you have to be by the person with the flu.

unknown 42:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

Right.

unknown 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

So there's almost a like the the first thing is just making yourself um putting yourself out there um in some of those areas. Uh um, especially in the areas where you're already naturally populating your life and looking for that presentness. So that's a just like presentness and being there uh in those moments and being available in those areas where you need to be available. The life of these other people. The second thing, like that I bet you when we were talking about like the uh if we took a survey, I think would be like genuineness, honesty, like the fake or not type stuff is really, really important. Um so learning some of these things, people say fake it till you make it, but like there's probably gonna be a rough patch where like it comes off weird because you're trying so hard. And you like, and that's just gonna that's just part of the human skill.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Um The other thing I would say about that, the fake it till you make it part, just as a matter of discernment, is like don't go fake it till you make it with this like person you're convict like super I don't have any fabric of relationship with full stop. And I'm going to have a long relationship with them because they work with me or something.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

And you most of us have. Probably what I'd call a target-rich environment or like a safer set of relationships just to begin practicing a learned skill with. Um, so just like you're probably already going to a group of people. Yeah, for giving yourself the right training ground to sure and start you actually don't have to do it at first with a spiritual conversation, it can just be with getting to know them.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah, this is just friendship 101, really is what we're talking about as far as contagious. So there's that part, the other part that I that I think people really is like so being there for them, but also like following through for them. Like uh like setting setting times to meet with people and like a like arriving on time, or if you say I'm gonna have this done, or like we're following up, we're following up on the on the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

So, like Josh Payment the other day, I was processing something with him. And obviously we have a deep friendship, but I know he does this with others. We were processing something the other day. He was actively listening, asking questions, doing the curiosity thing. Like two days later, I get a book title from him.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

You know, he's like, hey, this is a book that I've heard reference recently. I think you'd really like to read. And it was literally like answering, like it was like a full book answering the thing I was wrestling with.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

And so like that's contagious because, like, man, that guy like loved me enough to wake up early and think about me and send me this.

unknown 45:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Like, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Yeah. Uh so like those are the things that like tend to make people sick of like, oh, this person's reliable in some sort of sense. Like, or like it when I reach out to them, like they they reach back in certain ways. They're intentional, reliable. They're intentional, reliable. Like, those are also really contagious things that like are kind of the starter or non-starter type things. Like, you can't do it. Yeah. And the thing that we're talking about with Alex is like where the Lord can like purify. And to end, like, just because of how powerful Alex is, I want to re highlight Alex's testimony there of like there's so many places where the Lord wants to that we have insecurities about that the Lord wants to enter and make whole and make superpowers as a result. And the reason they become superpowers is because we've worked so hard to like get around them or avoid them or whatever. That that whatever that muscle is in combination with the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, just like it's just like a human come alive. Grace build grace built builds on nature.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Oh, yeah. Well, you had this, you had this natural skills that were building to help you protect yourself from the wound, but now now they're not needed to protect you from the wound anymore, so they can be pointed towards good. But then also the wound left a cavity. And there's a lot of room for grace now, right? Like you're literally empty in that area, and so God's grace can take over. A couple other small points I'm thinking on for contagion. Um, for contagious, like I think the art of conversation is really important, actually. And so, like the the um the skill of having small talk, right? And like I mentioned a weakness in my area and noticing when the other isn't interested in the small talk. Yeah instead of continuing to talk, cutting that subject loose and going to another thing, or the skill of like being okay with some silence. So like I went and played top golf with a friend, like the conversation had stopped at a certain moment, and we just golf for a little bit. Yeah, and then do that all the time. And I was like, okay, that was cool with us. We've had a relationship, and then I didn't have to force air on the conversation. I could like honestly, if I'm actually nervous, which I wasn't, I could like interior just pray a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah, pray a little bit, think about think about where you want to go.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Honor this person, you know, and what what they care about, and ask a new question, right? And so I think being comfortable asking open-ended questions or leading questions is really helpful. One I would just really tactical. Like if you really want to know someone, like an easy thing is like, did you grow up around here? Okay, there's like seven questions after the answer to that, right? Yeah, yeah.

Calling Alex: A Live Case Study

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Actually, this is a sales technique. It's called like whenever I worked at Nike, they had us do this. The the the main goal when I was walking around the shoe floor, and I'm just like selling like discounted Nike shoes at an outlet mall. So like the stakes weren't high. Yeah. Uh but we were trained to not ask yes or no questions. Open-ended questions is the is the habit. And so you and sometimes people like really like to like to think of one. Um and you know, sometimes people have a a staple, you know, that they ask one of my favorite open-ended questions is what's your Chick-fil-A order? And then why? And like, you know, and just different things. It's just like kind of a funny one. Like in the same way, like when somebody's trying to think of like their opening line on a dating app, like you could have a question or two, yeah. Like just like written down, thought through.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

It's interesting, and all of us can know our own personalities, right? But like if I just have a sense that this could be a spiritual conversation, let's say I'm at a conference and it's a complete stranger. Where'd you grow up? Right? Where where are you from? Okay, so someone's gonna some people will answer that different ways. So I'll just walk you through one with this gentleman I'm friends with now. Where are you from? Oh, I'm from St. Louis. His name I already met him, his name's Connor McCarthy. I'm from St. Louis. Oh, that's cool. Um I ask a few follow-up questions about where he's from. I sense some certain things about his character. We're like four or five questions in, and he's mainly doing the talking. And I was like, You said you're from St. Louis. You mentioned being Irish. Any chance you got like some Catholics in your family? He's like, Oh yeah, buddy. Like, I'm I'm Catholic. Yeah. You know, deep, like, you know, good time Charlie kind of voice. Big personality. And I was like, safe guess, St. Louis, Irish, you know. And uh and and then and then he was like, there was a little bit of the religious shame that came in next, which was very interesting. I wasn't expecting it. But he was like, Yeah, you know, I'd like to be more involved. I've kind of, you know, life's not a straight path all the time. He I just met this guy. I mean, I said I was Catholic too, so there's some built-up trust. And you could tell it was maybe set in tone for a healthy conversation. We were having a beer. Um, and uh we just started talking about that. Like we like I was just I didn't go too far, like I went another layer deeper and I let him take me the next one. Another layer deeper, let him take me the next one. And we were friends. We still are friends. And then the art of ending a conversation is very important, I think, sometimes, right? So like we got to a depth, we hung out a little bit, I pulled out of the depth. Like, what are you doing after this? You know, he's talking about what's going on in the evening. That's natural, by the way, in conversation for the person to ask the inverse of what you just asked. So what are you doing next? So I it indicated timetable. And then I said, and then I said something like, Hey, Connor, like, let's trade numbers. Like I would, it'd be we're here at the conference this weekend, like it'd be good to know each other. It sounds like there's some good overlap. And so permission, if he needed to exit and didn't want to go deeper, which even if he didn't feel like that interested in talking, that would be a decent exit, actually. Um, but like it gave an opportunity for both of us to end without me like prematurely withdrawing from his emotional or energetic gas tank, so to speak. And so I think we need to end those well. And you can people give you cues if they're disinterested. Like Jace is giving me certain cues in his body language that we're near the time to end the land the plane here, right? Like I'm aware, though I'm generally never aware of the time that we're approaching the time, right? And it I'm not sensing it as disrespectful, but I'm sense I'm sensed a couple little cues there. So if I kept talking, I'd like thinking and hoping I'd like gain something, I might be losing something. You know what I mean? And I I err that way, if you can't tell from this exact like too much time on my mic moment. But like I think that's important to know. Like, when can we end? And then having being able to have the wisdom if you're investing this person to can like propose a next step.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

Or like, when will you be here next? Or right? Like, and not every conversation needs next step, but if you're investing in someone and like you want to be their friend so you can introduce them to your best friend, Jesus, don't leave it hanging.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I love all of that. And it's funny that was a totally subconscious body language thing, whatever you picked up on. But I was thinking, like, yeah, it's probably time to it's about time to land the plane.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

It's about it's a it it is on it is along those rounds, but I was but I wasn't like at the point where I'm like, all right, time to tell James to And for clarity for people who aren't watching the video, like the Jace in a conversation wasn't doing that in a rude way, but if you have enough conversations, you can notice.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

You know? And um, I think that's important. Um and and should be a feedback loop if you tend to talk too much. Like I tend to talk too much sometimes. So I mean so I bridle that a little bit by noticing the body language. You know, some people give cues on when they desire to speak and things like that, and we need to listen to those.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Totally makes sense. We could talk about this a long time, like how to be a good person, and like there's a bajillion books written about all of this. Um one thing that is tied to what you just said about that, just from a practice, practical standpoint, um, it is so true that the skill of going from where you're from or what sport are you watching, or what whatever approachable question, knowing and developing the skill to go from wherever that, whatever their answer is. This is really just like a skill that you can take from like improv comedy. Um, but we would do this at, we would do this at In Focus with my students. We would give them, we would ask them, we wouldn't tell them why. We'd say pick an inanimate object in the room. They'd pick forks, they'd pick picture frames, they'd pick. They're like, all right, now start a conversation starting with that thing and get to the gospel. Um, and and figure out a way. But the beautiful and uh Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

That would be a really fun challenge to do like on air, honestly. And just listeners, I just challenge you, believe it's possible. Because like, especially if the God, if especially if God has drawn you to this person, you know, and you've prayed about them, He will put in their mouth ways for you to get to the way to love them. Like they will say things if we ask open-ended questions and are listening, especially if we're praying interiorly and engaging the Holy Spirit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

There's gas on it for sure. Well, this was fun. We'll we'll tackle teachable maybe next time. Yep. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

Hey, in a few months, guys, we'll be done with fact and move on to the next thing. Thanks for hanging out. This has been Radio Catholics.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

I'm Jace.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

I'm James.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

See you next time. See ya.