EP19 - Interview with A.W. Farrell

In this episode of the Journey to an ESOP podcast, Jason and Makenzie interview brothers Marc and John Farrell of to discuss their company’s transition to employee ownership and the multi-generational legacy behind it. The Farrell brothers share the history of their 80-year family business, why they chose an ESOP over other transition options, and what they’ve learned in the early stages of becoming employee owned. From succession planning and leadership transitions to culture and communication, this conversation offers practical insight for business owners thinking intentionally about the future of their company. 

Transcript

[0:11] Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Journey to an Aesop and Beyond. If you are new here, welcome to our podcast. Our goal here is to provide a resource to those in the Aesop community to provide an accessible and understandable resource, whether you are an existing Aesop or a company that's thinking about exploring an Aesop. We hope to provide that resource to you on a weekly basis. So I'm your co-host today, Mackenzie Wirth, and I'm here with Jason Miller. And today we have the opportunity to interview two brothers, actually, Mark and John Farrell with AW Farrell. So this company is one that we actually had the privilege of helping through their ESOP transaction. So today will be an exciting conversation to hear firsthand from owners that sold to an ESOP, hear about their experience and their journey. So with that, I will pass it to Mark and John for you to give a brief introduction on yourselves and your company. Thank you.

[1:33] Hey good morning jason and mckenzie uh it's a pleasure to talk with you my name is john farrell my brother and i are the owner operator of of the business here and uh, we're excited to be talking to you this morning um our our company uh has has had a long long history. It's about an 80-year run. We got around 400 people working. We're the new owners. We bought the company from our grandfather's estate several years ago and began the commitment to do the ESOP transaction over the last year or so and really enjoying it so far.

[2:27] Awesome. And then, Mark, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. Hi, everybody. So, I'm John's younger brother. We're two of the four boys in our generation of roofers. So, as my brother said, we bought this business in October 2020. Prior to that, my brother and I worked in the roofing industry since we were kids, like a lot of blue-collar businesses. We sort of followed that trend. And then through a sort of series of unexpected events, we found ourselves in a position where we had to decide whether to take the risk and the opportunity of buying a business and operating it fully ourselves. And then, you know, we made that decision and can create it forward. And as John mentioned, you know, now we're brand new starting in the ESOP journey. But excited to be here and excited about the journey we're on.

[3:38] There's a lot of history in in 80 years um and there's there's a lot of history in what i'm hearing as as three three generations uh and in that history and i i think some of our our listeners would love to hear a little bit more around uh how what what it's like uh inside a multi-generational company and how that leads to or could lead to what was the impetus around exploring employee ownership as an option for not just a next generation of family but a continued history of the company itself.

[4:26] Yeah so i'll put a little color between the lines uh you know the company started in 1948 actually our great grandfather started as a residential roofing and siding company in a small town south of buffalo called dunkirk new york uh he he owned and ran the business for a while and then uh, he passed away sort of quickly and unexpectedly while our grandfather was in in college and uh so grandpa dropped out of college he was a grove city college, and came back to dunkirk and took over the business he he's really the he's technically the second generation of our family but he really was the one to uh drive the business forward into a lot of its modern form now he was really a visionary he was a hard driver, incredibly hard worker, all the characteristics of kind of the founding, generation of a family business. Grew the business a lot, expanded, acquired a couple small companies, you know, moved to Buffalo, moved to Pennsylvania business-wise. And all the while, he had five kids, our dad being one of them, three boys and two girls. And they all in different ways got involved in the business. Our dad was well into it by the time we were born.

[5:53] We were all born in Donkirk, but we grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania, where he was building that business. Our uncle, Mark, moved out to Phoenix in 1978, started a company that became a large roofing company under the umbrella of my grandfather's ownership.

[6:13] And then our uncle, Bob, went down to Charlotte, North Carolina, started a company that became pretty large in the south somewhere in 1998. So the third generation really kind of spread around America and started new businesses kind of all under the umbrella of the parent company. And then our grandfather got sick probably around 2010 and then began sort of like a process that has had a big impact on John and I's thinking about ownership transition and so on and so forth. So our grandfather, again, was sort of the classic founder. He had a lot of control of the businesses, a lot of oversight. And when he got sick, it wasn't really like a counterbalancing mechanism there.

[7:13] You know, eventually ended up passing away. Other business kind of went their separate directions, the conglomerate, if you will, split up. And then the business we now own was sort of leaderless.

[7:27] And our dad was living in South Carolina, he ended up moving to New York to help stabilize the business. There was a lot of people who had been here a really long time that had We built a lot of loyalty to the company and family, and we're still here, but the business didn't have leadership or direction at the top.

[7:46] And then that ended up leading to my brother and I moving here. I was living in North Carolina. He was living in Virginia. We moved with our wife and kids to Western New York. And then, as we mentioned before, ended up buying the business because our dad is the oldest of that generation. and he was already at retirement age and wasn't interested in like a restart, you know, buying a company and having to do everything that comes with that. So God bless him because he was very transparent about that, which is actually another really important thing for our story, that our dad was a really enlightened guy. He learned a lot by observation of things that were done well and things that maybe could be done differently. From the ownership side, from the generations that came before him, so his ability to sort of communicate clearly and sort of not have the temptation to be in control to the end thing created an opportunity for my brother and I, you know, that we took. So that's a little bit more of the history and.

[8:57] You know the the culture that a family business built often is consistent with the culture of an ESOP is something we've come to learn that's one reason we settled there is our transition plan we didn't know that but you know now we do when you sort of match the two up um when you think about, companies that would say and do things like employees first business first thinking long-term like those sort of catchphrases if real are the culture of the business and that's very much in alignment with what the purpose of an ESOP is you know it's not a quick fix it's not a magic bullet it's a long-term plan to align incentives to reward the people who are doing the work but it doesn't come quick and it doesn't come easy. So we could elaborate on sort of how we evaluated different options and why we're here, especially one sort of thing that people often comment on is we're, quote, too young. I just turned 40. My brother's something like 46, but he looks not a day over 40, so we're basically the same age.

[10:16] So, you know, but I'll leave it at that. Maybe you want to follow up and we can take you from there. Yeah, so you mentioned, you kind of mentioned with the family transition, the business transitioning over different generations, it maybe kind of steered you and John away from continuing that. You wanted to do something different, which led you to the ESOP, but you did mention exploring other alternatives. So I'm just curious, maybe what else you explored? Did you explore strategic sale, any financial buyers, and what kind of strayed you away from those options and led you more towards the ESOP, other than the culture piece?

[11:03] Yeah, that's a good question. It took a long time to make the decision to really take the ESOP option seriously. You know, we all grew up, you know, in the roofing community and working on the jobs with the guys. Our other two brothers also worked side by side with us in the field when we were younger. And one thing that we like to remember is that some of the best lessons are some of the toughest lessons.

[11:47] The quick answer and the easy answer is oftentimes not the best answer so when we looked at, what we wanted to do with the business um the esop really ended up making the most sense by an overwhelming majority um you know we we didn't want to go to private equity and see the, company take that different path and have that type of outcome that you see so often. Fortunately, unfortunately, the company is just too big and too expensive to sell to like single owner or next generation in a way that is practical. So.

[12:42] One of the points I'm trying to make is understanding the business from the ground up, having worked with the men, you know, side by side and appreciating what they do. We just kind of felt like we owed it to everybody to keep the company in a lot of ways the same as what it has been and try to just sort of protect it. So it just worked out that way. It just became more and more of a logical solution.

[13:14] And, you know, the more we looked at it, the more we liked it. And the more we liked it, the more we talked about it. And the more we talked about it, the more practical of an option it became. And it got us to here. It sounds like it was a very thorough process on your part. I think a lot of our listeners would get value in understanding how long that process took for you from when you're like, we've got to think about what's next and exploring those options. Both from a standpoint of when you started investigating what your options were, how long until you reached out to whether, excuse me, before you reached out to someone to investigate further with a third party when you reached out around the ESOP to our team. Give us a timeline of how that looked for you. I can chime in on that. I think the direct answer to that question is probably something like a year.

[14:32] I think, you know, we're not qualified to give anyone advice. We're just telling our story. So within that, though, I'd say one of our big moments was, you know, we bought the business at the height of COVID. It was kind of a crazy time. The supply chain crisis after that hit construction. Business-wise, it was worse than the pandemic. So we were just scrambling for a while. And then, you know, once we got about five years past, we sort of, for our first time, got to like take a breath and think about the future. And the big realization we had looking at the transitions we've seen in our family. One of our uncles sold to a private equity company. Our grandfather passed away sort of without a plan, so to speak, for a lot of things in the business. We realized that like a thoughtful transition is like a 10-year deal. And it could be done in five and could stretch it out to 15. And once we realized that, we sort of realized like, wow, Like, this is how you get stuck, like, later.

[15:50] You don't think about it, you know. We didn't think about it for five years. I could easily see how you don't think about it for 20 years. And then, you know, you start, you could get yourself in a pickle out of there because there's like, just things can change in life. So once we realized that what we felt was to make a responsible decision for our business and our employees was kind of a 10-year process, like from start to finish, plus minus.

[16:23] Then we started taking serious, like thinking forward. And that's where we did our homework. We ended up talking to four or five companies that went ESOP. We talked to like four or five companies that sold the private equity. We really tried to seek out people who had already gone through a transition to say, like, how did that go? Did you like it? You know, so on and so forth. And then, you know, in that journey, we found the podcast Journey to an ESOP. And that was really helpful in a space that there's not as much like out there. You know, ESOPs were not something that we really knew about. And then we ended up reaching out to your firm, you know, thanks to the exposure and the education we got. And then from that point, as John said, the more we learned, the more we felt it was in alignment with our long-term goals and values for the business. From that point, it was probably like a year, I think, until we were signing day. You know, on June of 2025 is when we closed the transaction.

[17:33] So that might have been more than you were bargaining for. But that sort of realization that a thoughtful transition takes a little longer than I would have thought without having observed what can happen there was a real light bulb moment for us and really kind of put us in a position where we started the journey of figuring out what to do.

[17:58] We always tend to get more than we expect when we ask questions. And Mark, what you expressed there with the in looking ahead and understanding that an exit can be a very long term proposition and getting started early. And earlier on in the podcast, you'd mention folks telling you like, hey, you're too young to think about the future.

[18:30] I don't think anyone is too young to think about the future of the company. And we often encourage founders and owners to start thinking today whether or not you act, which is the impetus behind my question. It should take time. It should take thoughtfulness. It should take foresight. And framing it as even when there is movement and there is action like participating in an ESOP transaction or undergoing an ESOP transaction, there's still time beyond that closing date that needs to be considered in all the actions that take place leading up to that closing date. And one of the things that I've appreciated about working with you is how far out into the future you and your team look, not just from a succession standpoint, but really in operating the business and what the next incarnation is and what the next evolution is. And that's something that, as you and John were sharing, I think may come from that legacy of your great-grandfather, your grandfather being the visionary, and then your father stepping into a leadership gap with a level of wisdom and humility to say that this is how things need to change.

[19:52] What other qualities of your family legacy were you hoping to preserve in an ESOP transaction?

[20:06] That's a good question.

[20:14] I think some of the qualities that we're interested in the most are, you know, thinking about like a roofing company. You know, it's a blue collar industry. It has become more complicated. You know, over time, you could probably find somebody to say that it's become more complicated than what it needs to be.

[20:42] But the, you know, the main thing that we probably want to preserve is, you know, just the integrity of the industry. And, you know, all of our employees and coworkers understand that there's certain priorities throughout the day that just need to be recognized constantly with, you know, good safety and, you know, good quality and just having a good customer experience. You know, meeting schedule obligations things like that it sounds simple and probably every contractor would agree it's tough to, to do it as often as what people might think but those are what we look at you know, when we're talking to the men in the field, we're typically talking about those types of things and, And that's, you know, when we look at sustainability with the business, those are the types of things that we really tend to center up on with our priorities and our, just the conversations that go with it.

[22:03] So moving towards the actual ESOP transaction process itself, I'd like to hear from you both what maybe surprised you most about the transaction process. Maybe what decisions that you had to make along the way that were more difficult than you anticipated. I also think it may be worth noting for our listeners that you all are a partial ESOP, so that was probably a decision. And one of those decisions that was made, maybe you knew that going into it, that you wanted to maintain a certain percentage of ownership, or maybe that was something that you thought differently. And then once you got into the process, you changed your mind. So what surprised you the most and what decisions were made that you found most difficult? Yeah.

[22:54] So the overall decision you know once we got to the decision point wasn't hard for us and that this was just a result of doing the homework and and once we could sort of see everything we talked about it's you know it's pretty pretty straightforward for us um but as far as the details go you know you know we decided to go 30 that's sort of a compromise of our age and appetite, you know, that we're not retiring. We're very much engaged in our business. We were not looking for a full exit as individuals. We weren't looking to turn over full control of our business. So, you know, the 30% we feel is a great balance. Like it's a way to get things started. There's a lot that goes with it that we're just getting started on. Like a lot of messaging has to happen. as an opportunity to be a catalyst to re-evaluate how our business is run, who's in what role. So we're going through all those things. And then there's details that anyone considering that has to go through, like do they want to do seller financing? Do they want to use bank? Things like that matter.

[24:15] For us those details don't matter as much because just the benefit we have of not being too detail-oriented and when we when we know a general direction we want to go um, we just kind of go that way so um yeah i'd say in summary you know the hard work was learning, and comparing it to other things you know recognizing sort of the long-term nature of, ownership transitions and the challenges and then, you know, everybody will have their own individual, you know, goals as it relates to the specifics.

[24:55] And you mentioned the communication piece once you got to closing how would you describe what that communication and rollout looked like for your employees well we're working on it you know this is new for us we we know it's not a one and done you know like we thanks to your firm and, some common sense we learned along the way you know there are some potholes you you want to step over like don't surprise people, you know, you don't want to, excuse me. Sorry about that.

[25:42] Yeah, maybe I could add something there.

[25:48] This might get filed under the predictable or maybe unexpected, depending on where you sit. But I think it's pretty normal when there's a change, you know, it creates some disruption and some questions. And I think it's sort of human nature for people to struggle with putting like a value on an opportunity.

[26:11] So, you know, we have some early adopters that are, you know, really leaning in and interested. And they make the messaging easy because they kind of already are sort of already adopted, have sort of already adopted the new opportunity here. We got some people that, you know, are sort of indifferent that, you know, look at it like maybe this is good. You know, maybe I liked it the way it was before. And I think we have some people that just aren't, you know, that committed either way. You know, for example, when people are later in their careers, it's tougher to find meaning on opportunity or long-term opportunity, stuff like that. So in terms of some of our messaging and some of our challenges, I mean, there's been sort of a range of communication that we want to put forward. And then, you know, how people respond back has created some different types of conversations.

[27:21] I know that you are still really new as an employee-owned company, but with that being said, have you noticed any particular changes or have any particular stories that you'd like to share with the audience around what impact in a positive way it's had since you've communicated the transition last year? Yeah, for sure. You know, I think one of the central themes, like with the ESOP we found, when we were first announcing it, we talked a lot about like, how to communicate that. And one of the phrases that really kind of stuck was like, the ESOP, as it relates to our employees, it's not a gift of money, it's a gift of opportunity. And that really resonates with us because that sort of tying together our family history is kind of how we were raised in our experience in the roofing business.

[28:37] And we're grateful that that's the way, the order that it went in. Ever since we were kids, like we were gifted the opportunity to go home. You know work in the warehouse like when we were 10 years old and our friends were like playing baseball and then we were like gifted the opportunity to start roofing in the field when we were we're not 18 years old which is technically not allowed um you know we were gifted the opportunity to to do journeyman work before we were a journeyman to be a foreman before we were forming and we were never given the monetary value of those functions and there were times in our life where we you know being young where we were probably feeling like that was an unfair deal uh one of our favorite brothers stories is how like you know we used to have to drive our dad i think would always assign us to the job that was the farthest away and You know, like the union collective bargaining agreements would like specify you have to get like travel pay and stuff. And our dad would be like, yeah, but not for you guys. So like that's not happening.

[29:55] So, you know, we took it in stride, I like to think. But that theme, you know, seems small at the time, or it seems like a big deal. But that repeated from 10, you know, to 30 or whatever point, you know, we would maybe say we were, you know.

[30:13] Matured through our initial professional stages in life and you could start seeing the bigger picture.

[30:23] So, you know, back to the ESOP, it just kind of settles into that reality, and that's what it is. This is an opportunity, and I think it's important not to oversell, right? Because the math of an ESOP is it could change people's lives or it could do absolutely nothing or anything in the middle. It depends on how the business performs, which is contingent upon how people take the opportunity. So that's central to the messaging we talk about. You know, it's not everything every day. We don't have to, like, talk about how every material order affects the ESOP. It's just something that's there, and we want people to know you can impact your life significantly and everybody around you, or we cannot based on what we do every day.

[31:16] That being said, there's sort of a foundational message. Yeah, we have seen people who get, who understand that. And it tends to be the people, frankly, who are old enough in their career that they can see longer term and have more experience. But not so far that they're kind of like, well, I'm two, three, five years away from retirement. So like the master doesn't really master me, which is a reality. You know, it's not a quick fix. And if you go ESOP, people who are within a few years of like retirement age, it's not as big of a deal to them. And that's not their fault. That's just the way it is. And then there's people on the other end of the barbell who are maybe just getting started in their career. And, you know, they're thinking about Saturday. They're not thinking about 20 years from now. So, you know, so that core in the middle, I would say, would be our quick responders who have the professional experience to see that this is a great opportunity. And, you know, so we see people, you know, engaging more, communicating more.

[32:27] There are small anecdotal instances of people maybe making decisions with more of a owner's mindset. And that's great to start, but our expectation wasn't that everybody would treat it like our grandfather did, you know, day one. It still takes time to build that. We feel that's an important part of being on our side of the ESOP is like that's part of our job now is to be, you know, impatient to make progress. But we have to be patient for the result to come. And that full comprehensive owner's mentality, it's going to take time, it's going to take consistency and it's also going to take some wins, because ESOP is not really that fun for anybody if the value of the business doesn't go up. So, that's, That's the best way I can think of how, you know, the short-term impact has been and what we see going forward from there.

[33:27] Mark, I'm going to shamelessly steal the, it's not a gift of money, but a gift of opportunity. That's a good one. Yeah, we're happy to share. Thank you. That's such a great way to put it and tie those pieces together. there. We are very forward with the performance element of what's required in the company after the ESOP. And it's not just a closing line or a finish line. But the real work can not only begins, but it continues with a renewed focus and hopefully a renewed vigor that gets that reaction from employees, from workers, that they now do have this opportunity to participate in in a more meaningful way. So I love the way that you phrase that.

[34:28] So Mark and John, you mentioned in your journey of before you decided you were going to move forward with the ESOP process that you spoke to companies that had already been ESOPs and you kind of, you know, did your due diligence. What would you say are any misconceptions about ESOPs that, maybe you had heard before and now living through being an ESOP in the first year, going through the transaction and almost being a year in now? What would you say are some of the biggest misconceptions? That's not a good question. Um.

[35:16] I think some of the misconceptions that people have are um probably just based on some some other stories that that we've heard you know in industry there's some some companies that that we all know of that have been esop for a very long time they were probably doing the esop thing, like for more than 10 or 20 years. And it just is such an accumulation that, you know, I think sometimes people try to fast forward a little bit, you know, in terms of what it might look like or what it might be worth.

[36:01] And, you know, the reality that we have to live in is we just got to go one day at a time with it. But so I think maybe a misconception is just the timing or the rate of accumulation or the speed that some of these transactions may go at like from an ideal point. But it just takes, I'd say just this stuff just takes time. And I think there's, it's probably pretty normal to have ups and downs and, you know, realize benefit quicker or realize challenges sooner. And, you know, some of the misconceptions are just in anything that sometimes it's just not as easy as what we'd like.

[36:55] But it's a challenge and uh i think it's a it's a good one yeah i think we often mention that the power that esops have for companies and with the culture and the employees and performance, it's not going to be an overnight change the day you close on the transaction, the next day it probably just still feels like another day at the office but um that's one thing that we talk about often.

[37:28] Mackenzie, there's also the administrative side of things that I think is like a little, probably a little misunderstood. You know, one of the challenges that you set up is, I think for a lot of people, at least it was for us, is a new concept. So you do have to get through that initial fog of like what's behind that hill. And that takes some work, but all good things take work. So, you know, figuring out how it works and all that stuff takes a little bit of effort. But then, you know, people here like Department of Labor that can freak out anybody in business who doesn't enjoy like extra government oversight, you know, trustee, like all that stuff. But you know what? We're only partial. So that's a little different if you go over 51%. But basically, you know, basically the, you know all these other players are on factors if you're you know owners in a business that, have integrity put put your business and your people first and be performance driven then everyone involved is just just confirming that that's what's happening basically um so it that's not something i would be concerned of if people hear those kind of things i think it could turn someone away.

[38:50] And also at the same time to recognize, like if you're selling part of your business, you're by definition giving something up. Like you can't have it both ways. Like when you sell something, you don't have it anymore. So now something comes with that. You know, if you sell to a third party, you have a new boss. If you sell and agree to retire, you're retired. If you sell it on ESOP, you know, there are things that come with it. So, you know, that's new for those of us who are, when you're 100% private owned and operated, it's a certain thing. And then when you go any other direction, it's a little different. You know, another reason that it works for us is just the things that come with it are are not inconsistent with the things we do anyway. So it doesn't bother us. well.

[39:41] Well, John and Mark, you've been very gracious with sharing your experience and your wisdom and your history and your company's history. And I believe very firmly that our listeners are going to get a lot of value from what you've been willing to share. I do have one other ask of each of you, which you've been the beneficiary of literally generations and multiple decades of wisdom that we've talked about. So I'd just be interested if you could distill some of that to what is the one best piece of business advice that anyone has shared with you that you would be willing to share with our audience?

[40:37] I'll take a run at it, and I'll have to start by saying, you know, being in business is very humbling, and I'm not sure I feel comfortable really giving advice to people, but maybe I could pass on some advice that we have gotten from our dad.

[41:00] Which is basically listen to the men in the field, listen to the boots on the roof, and don't get too far away from that in a business like ours. Those are the critical contact points that, all the other decisions pretty much need to be made around is just are we able to be effective and deliver you know the way that we promised yeah so so that would be probably the first thing to say and you know from my own viewpoint I'd say just you know be thoughtful and be optimistic, and uh you know this type of thing tends to you know come with a whole slew of challenges Just a lot of them are unexpected and some of them are sort of comical because, you know, we all should have known better. But at the end of the day, you know, you just get ready to do it again. And I think it's important just to try to make the most of it every day you can.

[42:11] Awesome. Thank you. Mark, anything from your perspective?

[42:19] I share my brother's hesitation with any amount of advice from the world. So I'm not only comfortable just talking about our observations and how it's driving our decision making. And, you know, what comes to mind for me is just a recap of something we talked about before.

[42:39] Us having observed ownership transitions, you know, both in our family, in our industry and in construction in general. Um over the last 15 years is you know if is is the 10-year rule i mean if it's it takes 10 years, to make a thoughtful effective transition and if we think we're on time we could we could be 10 years late and if we're 10 years early we might be on time and that's a difficult concept to wrestle with and we we had a hard time wrestling with it especially like in our 40s, but we are observing the construction industry going through what we refer to as great transition you know there's a huge number of companies where the owners are of a certain age there's a huge amount of consolidation going on there's a lot of private equity in places that they weren't a generation ago so you know I think a lot about people who are older than us that are trying to figure out what to do.

[43:51] And the same decision isn't right for everybody. PE might be the perfect solution for somebody. I got no judgment for that. It's really just figuring out what's right for you, your family, your business, your people. And probably just consider you might need more time than you think to do it the way you really want to do it.

[44:13] Thank you for sharing that. And again, John and Mark, really appreciate you devoting some time to share in general your story, some of your story and some of your experience with our listeners. Um, and it is, um, it is, it is humbling to know that what we're doing here helps to influence and impact you and on your journey to an ESOP. Uh, and we're hoping to continue to pay that forward by allowing folks to hear directly from you and not just what we want to put on the air every week. Um, so listeners, we're grateful that you're here. We hope that you got a lot out of Mark and John's story today. We are excited for the next couple of weeks as we continue through our Foundations of Transition series.

[45:10] And if you have any questions whatsoever, if there's something that we can do to help you on your journey, you can reach out to us at journeytoanesop.com, and we will see you next week. Thank you. Hey, Jason, before you close, I am going to give an unsolicited plug for your firm. You know, the things that are confusing about an e-stop require a good e-stop advisor. And part of the reason we're here is you guys. You've been great to work with from day one. The podcast is a great resource. Thank you for doing that.

[45:45] So, you know, anyone who's listening, like, I'm sure there are other good ones out there. Finding a good firm is important. And you guys have been great. So thank you for the work you're doing. Mark, thank you so much. We appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks, all. All right. Thanks, guys.