The Weight
The Weight
"Multigenerational Organizations" with Phil Gwoke
Show Notes:
If you work with people from different generations, live with people from different generations, or encounter people from different generations in your daily life, you probably need to listen to this episode. You might walk away with a better understanding of how different generations work, react, and think, and this understanding might make you a better leader.
Phil Gwoke is a proud Gen Xer, a generational expert and the CEO of BridgeWorks, an organization that helps companies bridge generational gaps and foster cultures of understanding and respect. Each generation is shaped by unique events and conditions that happen during their teenage years, and Phil knows how important it is to adapt leadership styles to meet these generational needs. He offers some excellent advice for leaders, and some interesting insights into the differences among Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z.
Resources:
Learn more about BridgeWorks.
Books mentioned by Phil:
- Wisdom at Work by Chip Conley
- Pendulum: How Past Generations Shape our Present and Predict our Future by Roy H. Williams & MIchael R. Drew
- The Fourth Turning by William Strauss & Neil Howe
Follow Phil on Instagram
Eddie. I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly:I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
Eddie Rester:Today we're talking with Phil Gwoke. He is the CEO of BridgeWorks, and he is a generational expert. He and BridgeWorks, for a quarter of a century for BridgeWorks, and for the last 10 years for Phil, have done the job of helping organizations, businesses, churches, understand the impact of the different generations. That's their research, that's their work. And I think it's important for us as leaders, whether you're a leader in your business, leader of a school, leader of a church, to begin to think about what does it mean that we have different generations together in the same room?
Chris McAlilly:One of the things I love about the church is that it is a community of people at the intersection of different generations and sectors, and that's what this conversation is really all about. What separates us, what connects us, and how do we lead better living across the differences in generations? We're coming to a moment where we will be led, in a lot of our institutions, by what Eddie is, which is the...
Eddie Rester:I'm a Gen Xer, or Generation Goonie. I'm going to claim, I'm going to make that happen.
Chris McAlilly:Okay, you're going to change the nomenclature?
Eddie Rester:I'm changing the nomenclature. It started right here.
Chris McAlilly:And then I'm a part of the millennial generation. And then, you know, the question is, really, how do you... You know we all have these differences as we relate to people 10 years or 15 years older and younger, and this is a conversation to kind of help you think through that, and some applications coming out of the research.
Eddie Rester:And what I loved is that he didn't... He said, it's not just about age, it's about experiences at a very specific time at life.
Chris McAlilly:Formative experiences around culture, around society, technology, the way education shapes your experience, the expectations you have around risk or not risk, structure, unstructured. It's great conversation. Very helpful, very you know, more practical, I think. I felt like I now know you much better, Eddie.
Eddie Rester:Same, and I'm glad. I'm glad I know you
Chris McAlilly:Yep, good. better.
Eddie Rester:Good day today. Enjoy this one. Share it like
Chris McAlilly:[INTRO] Leadership today demands more it. Leave us a comment. Let us know what you think. than technical expertise. It requires deep wisdom to navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.
Eddie Rester:As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the Academy and the marketplace, we all carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.
Chris McAlilly:But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of wisdom if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.
Eddie Rester:That's why The Weight exists--to create space for the conversations that challenge our assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.
Chris McAlilly:Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition, and responsiveness to a changing world.
Eddie Rester:So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a non profit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of Christ centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] We're here today with Phil Gwoke. Thanks for being with us today.
Phil Gwoke:Excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me. You.
Eddie Rester:You have an expertise and really kind of a history, studying and speaking on the work of different generations and how they work together, and so we're just glad for you to share some of that with us today. But before we get to that, give us just a little thumbnail of your story, your history, where you're from, where are you now, and tell us a little bit about BridgeWorks, what y'all are up to.
Phil Gwoke:Certainly. So I live in the Upper Midwest, where I grew up. Grew up, actually in Milwaukee, and I live in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, fairly similar townships, been up here my whole life. My father's from East Africa. He came to this country via scholarship. We moved there when I was a baby. War broke out, ended up moving back to the US, and so this is where I've lived, but still stay connected with family. Graduated from Bible College back in 1994, started off my professional career as a youth pastor and a math teacher, and did that for a short while, and really fell in love with the idea of adolescent development. So for the next 20 years, worked with high school and college age students, just helping them make that transition from young adulthood into adulthood. And unknowingly, I like to say, I got a living laboratory of generational changes, because when I started, I was pretty close to their age, you know? I was just a few years older. So we watched the same shows, listened to the same music. I was hilarious. Uh, fast forward 10 years, I'm working. They stayed the same age. I kept getting older, and I kept having to adapt the way that I connect with them. Fast forward 20 years, and now they're calling me grandpa, and I'm like, scratching my head, trying to understand where they're coming from. It was about that time... Yeah. [LAUGHTER] So it
Eddie Rester:And what they're saying. was about that time that I found BridgeWorks and the work that we do, I like to say I stand on the shoulder of giants. They've been doing and working in this space since the late 90s. They wrote a best selling book. I joined the team about 10 years ago, and it was just this wonderful fusion of my passion for people and bringing people together, an interest in history that I've always had, but just nothing to do with it, and understanding how these generational shifts work. So the first 20 years where I kept adapting my communication style, now I get to apply it in corporate settings, helping different organizations understand their teams, understand each other, and how to position their goods or services or message to best resonate with people of all ages. So that's what BridgeWorks does, and kind of how I got here.
Chris McAlilly:For those that, some people are very immersed in this language and in this research, others are maybe new to it. For folks who are less familiar, who are the living generations today? How would you categorize them?
Phil Gwoke:Great question, Chris. So before I categorize them, I want to make a quick disclaimer. When we study generational differences, it's not about people's age. So when I talk about the different birth years of a generation, that's just our starting point to kind of understand what took place. So the living generations today, there are a few members of the GI Generation, those that fought in World War Two. They're in their upper 90s. The next generation that many of us might call grandparents or older aunts and uncles are the Silent Generation. They were the children of World War Two. The youngest ones of those are in their early 80s. Baby Boomers is the term most of society is familiar with. They were born between 1964 or, excuse me, 1946 and 1964 so they're between the ages of, I believe it's 60 what is it? 62 and I forget the exact cut off now, 81 something like that. My generation, Gen X.
Eddie Rester:The greatest... A great generation. Let's just go ahead and lay that down.
Phil Gwoke:A great generation.
Eddie Rester:Not "the" but "a."
Phil Gwoke:Proud generation born between 1965 and 1980 and many of us who are Xers, we share Eddie's enthusiasm for our generation, partly because we're often overlooked. Everyone talks about baby boomers retiring, or that generation, or millennials coming up with new ideas, well we're sometimes called the Forgotten Generation, or the Jan Brady of the generational family tree.
Eddie Rester:That's right.
Phil Gwoke:So whenever I talk about this, it's not surprising that the Gen Xer speaks up and makes sure we get noticed, because we've been ignored.
Chris McAlilly:It's very much not surprising that Eddie would speak up. No.
Phil Gwoke:[LAUGHTER] And that brings us to millennials, born between 1981 and 1995 which is interesting, because the youngest Millennials this year will turn 30. So for so long we think of them as young people starting out in their careers. Most have two decades of work experience, and then Gen Z, following the millennials born between, depending on whom you research, '96, '97 to 2010. And after that, they talk about Gen Alpha. There's been some posts about Gen Beta being born this year, in the first year. We can talk about generational naming. I've got some criticisms of the current alphabet soup that they got going on here, but...
Eddie Rester:Absolutely, yeah, we can. We can both... yeah.
Phil Gwoke:Yeah. Let's get into that at some point. But the key point here is, what makes each generation unique are the unique events and conditions that shape them in their teenage years. And that's what we try to unpack as we try to bring this topic to application life, useful insights and strategies.
Chris McAlilly:Where did the architecture come from? Is it a sociological perspective? Is it a cultural anthropological perspective? Kind of, where does the study of generations, like, what's the discipline?
Phil Gwoke:The simplest, yeah, bucket is sociology. You know, we're studying large groups of people, which is really important to point out, because there are always, when, anytime you identify unique traits about a group of people, an individual can be their own person. They have their own story. And so it's often that I might be delivering content, and I'll tell people like parts of what I say are going to really resonate with you in some parts, but a little bit different. But holistically, groups tend to follow these trends, and that's what generational cohorts share in common is there are roughly teenagers around the same time in history. But there's always, like I said, you might be in that cohort, but like in my case, I almost grew up in Africa, and even though I'm of this age, I would have had an entirely different experience growing up in a different country than, say, my peers in America, and that's important to point out.
Eddie Rester:And some of those folks who are kind of at the borderline of both, they begin to take on kind of different characteristics. I have a friend who was born in 1964. She wants me always to say she's Gen X, and I remind her she's a boomer. She does not like that, but I like what you said there. I don't want to miss that. It's about what you experienced culturally as a teenager.
Phil Gwoke:Yeah.
Eddie Rester:So it's not just necessarily birth year and so sometimes even in different places or contexts in the United States, your experience as a teenager is somewhat different. So as we think about maybe Gen Z and millennials in your mind, what are some of those kind of teenager cultural moments that shaped those generations? So give us some examples we can begin to think about that.
Phil Gwoke:Well, I will do that before I get there. Let me just give you a bit of advice for your friend. I heard someone coined this phrase, a booming Xer, and maybe you can go back and give her a little encouragement with that. Because the whole idea of a cusper is a really fascinating, insightful journey, and we've got some cuspers on our team that I'm encouraging them to write kind of a blog, because one's born on the Xer-millennial cusp. The other is a Gen Z-millennial cusp, and their stories are unique to, say, people born in the center of a generation. So to that point, what are the shifts between? What are the unique experiences between millennials and Gen Z? There are many, and I'm glad you started there, because often, without taking a closer look, you can make the assumption, well, they're, you know, millennials, Gen Z, it's all the same, you know. And their stories are so vastly different, and it's becoming more and more apparent with each passing year, especially in a post-pandemic era. So what are a few things that shaped millennial experiences? Well, first of all, one distinction is one of the most profound experience that shaped millennials was September 11. Right? 2001 any millennial can tell you where they were on that day and how it impacted their life. You talk to most members of Gen Z, and they're scratching their heads. We took our kids to Ground Zero back in, I forget what year it was, in New York City, maybe five, six years ago. Most all of our kid children are Gen Z, and they looked at us and said, "What happened here again?" Like it's a part of a history class, but they've got no emotional attachment to it. And so that's a vast distinction. Millennials grew up in an upgrade cycle, and this is really important. There are several studies out there that say, you know, the average millennial is looking for a new position every two years, and as a result, they get labeled, as, you know, either entitled or unwilling to pay their dues. Well, if you're a generation in your formative years where every two years you have to get a new phone, because the phone that you have currently is obsolete. It cannot keep up with the technology. They were hardwired to believe, if I don't have a new experience every two years, I'm going to become obsolete. Most Gen Z their first cell phone was something like a smartphone, or very close to it. And you know, smartphone technology just advances overnight in our sleep. The iOS system updates, and before you know it, your phone is changed, but they don't feel the need or the same pressure to continue to upgrade. Probably again, another significant changes, according to the American Psychological Association, millennials are the most confident of the four generations in the workforce. Now we know we've got more generations in society. They grew up in a confident era of history, you know, exciting
changes:internet, you know, from email to social media, there's all this possibility. Anything, you know, the world is their oyster. Gen Z grew up in a far more turbulent time, especially those that were in school during the pandemic. And so Gen Z almost counter, opposite of that is they are the most stressed generation. They're struggling, suffering with, you know, mental health, and very concerned about those things. Not that millennials aren't concerned about them, but Gen Z felt the brunt of it firsthand. And so I cannot tell you the amount of millennials these days who are in management positions saying, you know, I never understood why they didn't understand me when I started my workforce. But now that I'm managing Gen Z, I completely get where they're coming from, because they're giving them assignments, thinking that they're doing them a favor. By "Here, take this challenge out and go for it," because that's what they wondered when they entered the workforce, and Gen Z is saying,"Please show me what you want me to do, step by step by step." And it's frustrating millennial managers, and it's, you know, it's adding a stress to Gen Z workforce. And so those are some distinctions, and I'll just cap it off with this idea all of us have been to, you know, the whole world went through the last five years of the pandemic, and we're hopefully coming out of that now. The difference is I got to go to my high school graduation. I got to go to my senior prom. My 20, now, three year old son, who was class of 2020, we watched his high school graduation on TV in our living room. Entirely different experience. So to go through it in your formative years has had and will continue to have a deep impact on the generation of people that you know, we all went through it, but not at the same time. So those are some distinctions. I
Eddie Rester:I think that's good, because it wasn't the formative years. I mean that, I think that's one of the things I keep hearing from college professors, is that this group of kids coming to college right now is different.
Chris McAlilly:Yeah, so they're formative experiences and events, cultural events. Those are external factors, there are technological exposures, different ways of communicating, different educational experiences, different attitudes towards work. Mental health is an area where you see some differences, and you're already beginning to kind of push towards application in terms of management, but that was kind of where I was. You were kind of anticipating where I wanted to go next, which is, why does this matter? So I think it's one thing to have a framework, a framework of generational change, and kind of a large sociological map to overlay a society. I think, you know, the additional question would be, why would someone need that if they're in a leadership position, in a church, in a business, if they're even thinking about, you know, raising a family, kind of why should we care about this research? Why is it important?
Phil Gwoke:Yeah. And I think in any of those contexts, wherever people work with people, whether you're a leader in a church, managing a business, if you're positioning a product, goods or services, right, there is application. So it's difficult audibly, to kind of show a visible framework. But what we've done is on, you know, we've got these big charts that we use, and on one far left side of the graph, it's shared, you know, common experiences that everyone would go through, you know. So what type of family structure was common in particular? What was the economic setting? What were the tools for success? On one side of the column, and then we kind of go through this whole mind map to the other side, which is okay as a result of what shapes someone's thinking, what shapes a generational cohort's feelings or their, you know, the way they want to use their hands to be successful, their actions. Now it relates to what's going to motivate them? What environment do they feel comfortable or it feels relatable to them? And what is the best way to achieve goals? What tools to be And what most people do, and we do this in our... I mean, we do successful? this in relationships, you know, because I like to go on an intimate date with my wife for her birthday, I plan a candlelight dinner. Because she likes parties, for my birthday, she invites 50 people over the house. And we give people what we would want, rather than pausing and going, what's important to them? And this is especially true with generations, is we go, Well, this is what would motivate me. This is the story, this is the environment. This is the... You know, if someone would have given me this tool, then I could have been incredibly successful. And then we go, Well, if it's good for me, it must be good for them, and that's where the whole thing falls apart. So what we try to do is help people understand, wow, they had a different set of experiences that shapes their head, their heart, their hands, you know, what motivates them, and so forth. And so, you know, again, for a pastor in a church, you're trying to get people to drive attendance, you know, what's going to motivate them to want to come? A leader in an organization, you're trying to, you know, create a level of work ethic so people can bring their best selves to work. Well, what does that environment look like where they, you know, feel like they want to be engaged and so forth. So those are some of the applications. Well, yeah, just the tip of the iceberg.
Eddie Rester:I think that's... I love that example of we give people what we want. And I've felt that in the workplace before, when I was a new senior pastor and hired a millennial, 25-year-old millennial, to do something, and it just kept grating me, because I was like, why is he charging forward like that? Why? Why didn't he just wait for... Why didn't he just...
Phil Gwoke:Yeah.
Eddie Rester:Just take it a little easier, buddy. And what I finally realized was that he had, he was approaching the world in a different way than me, and I think sometimes, when we assume people just want what we want and should be approached the way that we want to be approached, we're like ships passing in the night. People will find the place and the people that are willing, at least to try to speak their language. You don't have to speak their language with that staff member, I didn't ever have to become a millennial. I'm never gonna be millennial.
Phil Gwoke:No.
Eddie Rester:But I had to create some space for that. So when you're working with businesses or organizations, what, any tools that you'd say, here's some ways that you can begin to do those things better, create space, listen more?
Chris McAlilly:Maybe we could specify the example, because both of you guys are, you said Gen X is what you are. And then I'm a millennial.
Eddie Rester:Yeah. Yes, yes, you are.
Chris McAlilly:So you think about you guys are adopting... I don't know what you mean by that, Eddie. Would you like to we like to air?Is there anything you need?
Eddie Rester:Should we create some space here for that?
Chris McAlilly:Give you a little space to express some things? Anyway, yeah, maybe, so I guess what I would observe is that in senior management positions, executive leadership, CEOs of organizations, that's gonna be you guys over the next period of time. As you're coaching up someone in executive leadership position who is going to be managing people who are millennials and younger, what are some of the things that are important? What does Eddie need to know, Phil?
Eddie Rester:What do I need to know?
Chris McAlilly:Can you please help Eddie as he navigates his teams moving forward? What does he need to keep in mind?
Phil Gwoke:So yeah, it's a big question, and there's kind of a bit of a succession planning in there, because a part of it, you need to effectively lead people today, and then you want to begin to create leaders of tomorrow within your organization. And if the leaders that do a poor job of making the environment appealing now, what's happening is many of those younger professionals are jumping ship and going to organizations that well, you know, these folks over here get me, so I'm going to go work with them. And now you're kind of, you know, without realizing it, creating the demise of your own organization. So that's where taking the time to understand what's valuable to others is so key if you want your business or organization continue to thrive. So what are some tools? What are some things that Eddie can do? One of the things we say is, in a multi generational organization, you don't try to pretend to be something you're not. This is why I really lean into the richness of a generation's experiences. What shaped you is so important and enriching to any community, and at the same time, what shaped another generation is incredibly valuable to you as well. So you want to start by creating environment where, hey, I didn't grow up in that setting, but I'd love to learn from you what it was like. What are your values? What's important to you? Because, just like if you look about personality theory, sometimes we grate against people with other personalities, but those personalities are important. We need the analytical mind. We need the you know, go. We need the feeling person. We need, you know, just all the things. We need, the party person. That's what creates a rich environment. And the same is true with generational theory. So it starts by just valuing and appreciating those other experiences, not age groups, right? Because it's hard for us. What does this person know? They've only been at work for, you know, five years. They should sit down and listen to me. That kind of begins to create that mindset. But if you go, "Wow, this person has a difference set of experiences, and I have. There might be something that I can learn from them, and there's certainly things that I can teach them." Fostering an environment like that, where people feel valued for their experiences, creates a culture, often, where people want to stick around. They want to learn from each other. When it comes to specific examples, then the next level is all right, starting to understand. Millennials, before they were called millennials, they were called Gen Y, partly because it followed the letter X in the alphabet, also because they were the generation that would question things. Back in the day when we Gen Xers started our careers, the boss said,"Jump." The right answer was,"How high?" When we said, "Jump" to millennials, they said,"Why?" You kind of expressed that Eddie, you know, this person wanted to do things their own way, versus waiting to learn from you. Well, again, that was a part of that.
Eddie Rester:And that wasn't Chris, by the way, that was someone else. Let me just be real clear. I learned no lessons by Chris.
Phil Gwoke:[LAUGHTER] There you go. You knew how to think. So like a simple a simple strategy we give many leaders is all right,well, if you've got a team member who you know constantly pushes back every time you give an idea and you're feeling like they're disrespecting you, rather than starting with the idea, start with why this idea is important to achieving values that you all share. Now, you create a little bit of excitement about the what that you're going to tell them in just a moment by starting with that why. Right? That's an application. For your Gen Z members that you're leading, one of the things that shaped them was a YouTube world or high school rubrics that gave them step-by-step procedures and how to be successful. As a Gen Xer, we are powerfully independent. We're going to figure life on out on our own. Why? Because there weren't many people around us coaching us step-by-step. We were that, you know, just the...
Eddie Rester:Abandoned...
Phil Gwoke:Yeah, the latchkey kids. So we got really good at developing our instincts, figuring stuff out, being efficient, so forth. Gen Z hasn't had many opportunities. They had play dates that were, you know, coordinated by parents. They didn't go outside and organize, you know, a bunch of friends playing baseball in the alley. They had some parent there, taking them step by step. It's neither good nor bad. It's just a part of their experience. So if I want to guide them, I might have to be a little bit more hands on with that generation. I might have to be a little bit more why, with millennials. So it's understanding those aspects and then putting them into practice to effectively lead. But again, I would say start by valuing. And the other thing is, you're going to meet Gen Z person who doesn't need a lot of coaching. Tell them which, point them in the right direction. They're going to be fine. You're going to meet a millennial that doesn't need to know why, just, you know, let's go for this. So a lot of our principles, I tell people, begin to apply these when there's sticking points, when you've got tension, when problems arise, maybe there's a generational background, but it's not like because individuals are individuals, you have to, you know... Don't just make the assumption either way. They're people. We're all people.
Chris McAlilly:I'm still trying to figure out... I understand the framework. I think it's helpful. And then I think, you know, you can begin to study kind of this period of time and these things that created different values, different ways of working, different ways of interacting with spaces, with authority, with institutions, but I'm still trying to understand some of the differences. So just maybe come back to this. Since we're working with, you know, Gen X and Millennial what is one of the ways in which... Like, you have more awareness of this than I do. I say that to Eddie and to Phil. Where do you... What's a more practical example that might have arisen out of, you know, you and I working together?
Eddie Rester:Oh, that's a great question. I think one of the things, but it wasn't just generational, it was just personality as well that you like to talk things out. That's part of it, and I think, but as listening to Phil, I think that's also getting to that"Why?" Okay, let's dig down to the bottom of it. And even when I read the things that you write sometimes, you cover more of the why in what you write than I would normally cover.
Chris McAlilly:Interesting.
Eddie Rester:And that's, I think, part of not just who you are, but I think that's a generational thing. I think the great thing about that is that then it speaks to other people who are millennials, but also people who need that "why?"
Chris McAlilly:Yep.
Eddie Rester:That maybe I wouldn't provide. I assumed the"why."
Chris McAlilly:Yeah, the "why" is a little bit more assumed. And so one of the funny things about us working together, Phil, is that, you know, Eddie, if I was going to get on Eddie's calendar, I would need to... If I wanted to talk to Eddie, dropping by his office... Some of this personality driven, but I would need to get on the calendar, you know, structured. He was an independent worker. He was very efficient, very structured. And, yeah, I can see how some of those things would be kind of generational. And I can also see, as you're beginning to talk this through, the difference between a millennial and someone, what comes next? I forget. I'm sorry. I'm still learning the framework.
Eddie Rester:Gen Z.
Phil Gwoke:Yeah.
Chris McAlilly:The next one Gen Z. And so Gen Z, you know, needing more structure, needing maybe a few more hand holds, where I just assume it's like, you have the task, you know why you're doing it, just go do it. You know, and I think that sometimes I haven't, you know, in managing folks that are a little bit younger, I haven't always appreciated the ways in which these broad cultural experiences may create a different set of values, a different way of structuring work, a different educational experience. I mean, all of that, I can see how that would affect someone as they're entering into the workplace. That's, it's really helpful to kind of drill down. Any other examples, practical examples, come to mind, Phil, from your work in other contexts?
Phil Gwoke:Well, those two stories, those two examples that you led into. Let's start with an Xer-millennial. So, when I joined BridgeWorks, I came out of education, right, at age mid 40s. Education is predominantly... There's a lot of people that stick around in education for a very long time. So I was one of the youngest people that I worked with on a regular basis. I joined BridgeWorks, I was instantly the oldest person on the team. Most of my cohorts were younger than me. All of them were, I think, at the time. And I became the old man. And my millennial colleagues loved brainstorming meetings. So as you were telling that story, I thought, oh my gosh, it took me back to, you know, them saying, "Let's go!" They had a room they literally called the tree house. We'd go in the tree house, and they'd brainstorm for, you know, they could go on and on. And I thought this was the biggest waste of time. Just tell me what you want me to do. I will go get it done and bring you my part.
Eddie Rester:I will get it done.
Phil Gwoke:And I had to, you know, evolve into this mindset. Well, I met a millennial who came up to me after a session, and she said, you know, "I need help with my baby boomer." She managed up. She managed a lot of people older than her. She was a dynamic, brilliant young woman. And she said, "I do these brainstorming meetings, and my millennials and my Gen Xers love them, but my baby boomers don't like them. I need some ideas." And I thought, wait a minute. I said, "Hold on. Before we get to baby boomers, did you just say your Gen Xers love brainstorming meetings?" I said, "Tell me more about these. How did you make that happen?" And she said, "Oh, well, when I do a brainstorming meeting, I put a timer on the table, and I'll say we're going to brainstorm for 30 minutes, and when the timer goes off, doesn't matter where we are in the conversation, the meeting's over, and everyone can get back to work, and they feel like, okay, you value my time." And I thought, what a brilliant application of an adaptation to a generation.
Eddie Rester:I want to go work for her.
Phil Gwoke:Right? Exactly. Like, this woman gets it. On the flip side, millennials managing Gen Z, okay, the newest generation to enter the workforce. A few years back, we brought in some Gen Z interns into, you know, like they're kind of they were just finally old enough to begin the workforce. My millennial colleagues were so excited to mold and shape these young minds, and it was a three-month internship over the course of a summer, and about a month into it, and now again, I'm the old guy on the team. I'm the Gen Xer. I would be having conversations with my millennials and how frustrated they were with Gen Z. On the other side. Gen Z is coming to me, going, "Can you help me out? Because these millennial managers are driving me crazy." And what was going on was the millennials were saying that, like, it was just a team meeting. They wanted these two interns to organize a team meeting for our group. And they said, "Here's your budget. Do whatever you want." And Gen Z kept coming back saying, "Well, when should the meeting be? How long should the meeting be? Where should the meeting be? What time should be lunch?" Asking questions, step by step. And honestly, I loved watching this generational dynamic play And my millennials were saying,"We gave you a budget. You can do whatever you want. If I wanted you to do it my way, I would have done it myself." And so the millennials were saying,"we wish our leaders would have just given us and told us go." And Gen Z was saying, 'No, no, no, I want someone to make sure out, because it was the first time I finally felt like I I don't make a mistake." Right? They tend to be more risk averse. So it's so funny how historically, the generations that are side by side tend to have the biggest challenges, wasn't the only crazy person in the room, you know. And I got to whereas I understood those Gen Z interns because they were the same age as my oldest children. So, you know, I could relate to them. watch this shift.
Eddie Rester:And sit back and laugh.
Phil Gwoke:like practical ways. So once we said, "Okay, here's a budget. Give them some examples of meetings that we've had in the past. We want you to bring your fresh ideas to it, but we don't want you to fail." Once they knew that they weren't being set up in a position where they could fail, then they felt more confident to move forward, and that was kind of one of the tools.
Chris McAlilly:That's super helpful, that's thoughtful.
Eddie Rester:Let's shift gears for a few minutes, talk about church specifically, because often we hear those young generations, they're done with church, they're out the door. They've, you know... How do we begin to understand? And statistically, when Pew Research comes out, that is true. So how
Phil Gwoke:Yeah, I mean, such a good question, such an important do we begin to understand that shift, maybe, from a generational perspective? And is there anything churches can begin to do in terms of thinking differently, responding differently, creating some space? question. And you know, I'm a person of deep faith. You know, not perfect by any means, but always growing. It has always been a rich part of my life. And so this question matters to me personally. I think the line that you have to walk is you never compromise the message, right? But you have to be willing to break and challenge the methods. And you know so... And I say that in businesses, as well. If you have core values that have been the foundation of your success, don't change your core values just to attract to retain the next generation. Those are values, those are principles. And old principles tend to be proven. But if you're using old technology because you have now given it some type of spiritual meaning that really isn't there, you know, then that's when churches or organizations tend to fail, because they become these sacred cows, as we've known to call them, which really... You know, a pew versus a row of chairs? There's nothing sacred about that. You know, none of those things existed in the first century church, but we give them some sacred meaning, because there's an emotional connection to when I was a kid, in my formative years, and on Sunday morning, you know, this was the hymn that really connected with me. And those are all sacred cows. They're not... They're methods. They're not messages, and they're means of conveying the message. So yeah, with relationship to the church, same thing I would tell businesses, okay, if you want, if it's a particular group that you want to attract, retain, then take the time to understand what is going to motivate Gen Z. What environment are they going to feel most comfortable in? And then what tools help them be successful? Same as business. So to give that, bring that to a more practical level, even though Pew and various research shows that you know, new, younger generations aren't attending church as much. There is a shift with Gen Z. Weekly attendance is down, but monthly attendance for Gen Z is a higher percentage than it was for millennials. So there's a growing kind of like, well, I need to be connected. There's also an interesting correlation between two-parent families and church attendance versus non two-parent families in churches. There's a stronger percentage of those in two-parent families that are going to church. Now, again, you can't help that as a kid, but it speaks to the influence of environment for decisions that are being made. All that being said, the research also shows that Gen Z is participating in, I mean, significantly less risky behavior than previous generations. So in other words, as a kid growing up in youth group in the 80s, most every Wednesday youth group message was about, you know, don't smoke, don't chew, don't go with girls that do. It was always about trying to get us to behave better. Most Gen Z, statisticly, they're not.
Eddie Rester:They're not behaving badly.
Phil Gwoke:They're not behaving badly. They're very good. You know, they're not the sinners that we were in my age group. But the motive behind it isn't necessarily out of some desire to be more godly, as it is this generation is risk averse across the board. They don't want to put themselves in a position where they could fail. They've seen a lot of things go wrong. They've watched a lot of people make mistakes. They're not going to let that happen to themselves. I think it's like 60 some percent of people under the age of 35 believe that alcohol is poison, right? I had Mr. Yuck when I was a kid in the 70s, telling me not to drink Lysol because that was poison. But now this generation looks at this quote, "risky behavior" as, this is toxic. This will kill you. So they're not participating in it. Well, there's a hidden message in there, is the gospel is, you know, the truth. You know the power of God unto salvation. So you got this message, this truth, but it's truth to all people. It's a living water. So what is this church? What is this generation wanting to drink? What are they looking for? They're looking for safety. They're looking for stability. They're looking for a home. They're looking for belonging in a different context, because they're growing up in a much more polarized world. They've grown up in a world where they were required by law to distance themselves from society. So as a result, we, as human beings, we're all wired the same, you know, we were grafted and knitted together, you know, wonderfully made. We have a need for connection. It's been taken away from them. So to be a church that says, hey, this is a place where you belong, you can be connected. This is a safe haven. And we'll give you messaging that will secure your faith in your life. You know, that's probably a different message that would have been, would have motivated me, the radical generation of the 80s throughout. You know, I remember...
Eddie Rester:We were out in a field on Friday night. That's what Generation X was doing, which is very different.
Phil Gwoke:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eddie Rester:My daughters are Gen Z, and you're exactly right that there's not that sense of,"we're gonna escape away from anywhere our parents can know we are," because they can't. They're the generation with Life 360 and tracking on their phone. There was no way to escape. They've lived a very structured life, and as they come into the working world, I think... My brother just hired a couple Gen Zs, he's like, "they won't think for themselves. They just won't think for themselves." But think what it is, is what you're talking about. They're just risk averse. They don't want to step out there and fail, and so they're not taking a step at all.
Phil Gwoke:Yes, and human beings all have the same capacity. Can Gen Z think for themselves? Absolutely. Every bit as much or more than any other generation, because they've got tools to help support them in that process. But they don't lack capability. They lack confidence. You speak that confidence in them. "I believe in you. I think you can do this," which, again, that's woven in scripture, you can now inspire them to rise to the potential that we're all capable of, I believe. And here's just an interesting point, too. There's another aspect of generational theory that I just want to try to introduce for just a moment. I don't know if we talked about this before, Eddie, about the seasons or cycles of generations. Did we talk about that?
Eddie Rester:I don't think we talked abou that.
Phil Gwoke:So every four generations or 80 years, society goes through an important shift, right? So 1946, the height of World War Two, or 1945 the height of World War Two, the end of World War Two, back up 80 years before that, the year is 1865, we're in the Civil War. Back up 80 years before that, the year was 16, excuse me, 17... 45, 65, 85 we're in the, you know, Revolutionary
Eddie Rester:1780? War. Back up 80 years before that, 1700 it's the French and Indian War, right? And each one is a battle between, does French or Britain control North America? Does the Colonials or Britain control this? Is it going to be, you know, one country or two separate countries? Is World War Two? It's all these mass of things. Well, interestingly enough, after each major conflict, about 20 years into it, is where the Great Awakenings take place. Going back to Jonathan Edward with the first grand awakening, Charles Finley with the second, D.L. Moody the third, Billy Graham, the fourth Great Awakening. They always happen about 20 years after these tragic things. But if you fast forward 80 years from 1945 the year is 2025. this generation or society as a whole, I believe the church is positioned for its message that has been kind of drowned by a lot of polarization, a lot of flips in messaging, the distractions of technology and so forth. People are looking for something real again. And now is the time. You're not the first person who has been a guest here that says, "Just wait." The Church of Jesus always experiences resurrection. I was reading GK Chesterton recently, and that was part of his message, is that the Church always dies, but the work of God is resurrection. The church always, it doesn't look or sound the same, but resurrection happens even for the church. Let me ask you, what are some, if folks want to dive deeper into this, where would you point them? What resources? BridgeWorks? I know the website has some resources. What would you point them towards?
Phil Gwoke:Yeah. So our firm has been doing this for over 25 years now, but most of our work is in-person consulting work. We've written three books. The problem with our books is each becomes dated pretty quickly, because our first book was written, millennials were still in high school. There was no such thing as Gen Z, right? So we keep updating, and now in the process of coming out with a new book for the emerging generation. There are some... Probably one of the best foundational books in this space is called "The Fourth Turning," where it talks about some of the things I just highlighted with these seasons of generations. There's a recent book, the author, there are two authors of"The Fourth Turning." One passed away, but the the living person still just came out with another book. "Fourth Turning" is now, I believe, but they're pretty heady. They're pretty deep. If you're looking for resources that are more practical, what do I do with this? Chip Conley wrote a great book called"Wisdom at Work," and he himself is a baby boomer who was hired by a handful of millennials who had started Airbnb, and all of a sudden found themselves running this, you know, massive company knowing really nothing about the hospitality industry. And so Chip's observations about fusing two generations in a modern workplace, I think, is one of the it's relatively recent, and it's just brilliant personal applications on how not to lose yourself, but how to find connection with others when you experience those differences. Let's see. Another good book is"Pendulum." It's a marketing book, but it is... So I think again, for churches, it talks about how to apply this seasonal shifts in a way to get your message across to the demographic you're trying to reach. That's a really great application book. Yeah, those are some highlights. Top ones come to mind.
Chris McAlilly:This is so helpful. Phil, thank you for your work with BridgeWorks, and thank you for your time today. Really appreciate you giving us a little bit of your time in a busy, busy week, a busy schedule. Thanks for sharing some of your wisdom with us.
Phil Gwoke:You're so welcome Chris.
Eddie Rester:Thanks for helping me understand Chris. So yeah, it's been good. Thank you.
Chris McAlilly:Yeah.
Phil Gwoke:You're very welcome. Thank you, gentlemen.
Eddie Rester:[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
Chris McAlilly:If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]