S05E21 - Gillian Yates (Incite Solutions Group) - VocRehab Pt1

In part 1 of the final episode of Invisible Injuries season 5, host Andy Fermo engages with Gillian Yates from Insight Solutions Group, a veteran rehabilitation provider specializing in psychosocial recovery. The conversation centers around the importance of vocational rehabilitation, particularly for veterans and first responders who face medical transitions that force them to leave their careers unexpectedly. Gillian shares her passion for supporting these individuals in regaining their independence, helping them find new purpose and direction post-service.

The episode explores the challenges of transitioning out of military life, particularly the feelings of loss—of identity, community, and purpose—that veterans and first responders often face. Gillian explains how psychosocial rehabilitation can address these challenges by helping individuals reconnect with their communities, build new skills, and find meaningful work. She highlights the role of social connection in recovery, drawing attention to research on the harmful effects of social isolation and loneliness on both physical and mental health.

Gillian also touches on her experience working with various military groups, including veterans of the Australian Army, Air Force, Navy, and Special Forces, to help them navigate the complexities of returning to civilian life. She emphasizes the need for personalised rehabilitation programs, tailored to the individual’s readiness to engage, and underscores the importance of supporting veterans in regaining control over their lives.

Key Takeaways | Insight

1. Vocational Rehab Importance | Veterans benefit from structured rehabilitation to regain independence.
2. Medical Transitions Are Difficult | Many veterans don’t choose to leave; their medical discharge is unexpected.
3. Grief and Identity Loss | Veterans struggle with losing their sense of identity, community, and purpose.
4. The Power of Social Connection | Reconnecting socially is vital for emotional and mental health recovery.
5. Loneliness vs. Social Isolation | Social isolation has a greater risk of mortality than loneliness.
6. Psychosocial Rehab Promotes Recovery | Rehabilitation encourages rebuilding life through structured activities.
7. Challenges Veterans Face | Barriers like unemployment, financial stress, and health issues complicate recovery.
8. Readiness for Rehab | Veterans must be ready to engage in rehab for it to be effective.
9. Veterans' Unique Needs | Veterans require personalized programs, considering their military experience.
10. Empowering Veterans | Successful rehab involves veterans taking control of their recovery journey.

Contact -  Gillian Yates
Website: https://www.incitesolutions.com.au/
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

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Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

I welcome to invisible injuries podcast aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of veterans, first responders and their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress by sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, the support staff and the clinicians. It's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311, 14. Here's your host. Andy fermo,

Andy Fermo: 1:02

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode, and the final episode of season five of the invisible injuries podcast. I'm your host, Andy fermo, and today for our final episode, it's been a long time in the making, pretty much all year, because we've been so busy. I'm so glad to have our guest, Gillian Yates, or Jill, as she'd like to be called, From insight Solutions Group, who is the WA provider for work rehab, a national vocational rehab provider. So welcome to the show, Jill.

Unknown: 1:36

Thanks, Andy, great to be here, and I'm also so glad we're finally doing this.

Andy Fermo: 1:41

Yes, we've talked about it. We've been dared and gone through and workshopped a lot of different topics, because vocational rehab is such as such a big breadth of services that you provide, and I'd like you to be able to share what it is that's really passionate for you that we're going to be chatting about in this first part of of our chat. Yeah,

Unknown: 2:00

absolutely great to be here, and it's great to have a platform to discuss, I guess, what we do as allied health professionals working with veterans and first responders and supporting their recovery processes and journeys. I have a background in occupational therapy, and I'm passionate about helping people to regain their independence and build a life that's worth living full of I started this journey actually fell into working with defense members at RAF Williamtown and was involved in the sort of on base rehab team, and realized that military members were such a wonderful cohort to work with so motivated, engaged, and there was something that really resonated with me about them and their ability to show up and get the job done. So I've followed that military theme one way or another throughout the course of my career, and worked with either veterans or military members. Basically, since graduating as an OT, how long have you been in the industry for now? It's now 10 years. Yes, I had a small hiatus in I went to London and worked with the National Health Service there to shake it up a little see Europe do the whole working holiday thing, and it sent me straight back to Oz to work with our military and veteran population. Because, yeah, it's just such a great population to work with.

Andy Fermo: 3:33

And what was it? What was it that taught you to gravitated you before like to become an OT you know,

Unknown: 3:38

I think I always knew I wanted to work with people and to help. As a child, I always helped out wherever I could, and got a lot of joy from being able to contribute in that way. I think I was always going to end up in a profession that involved working with people, being of service, right? Yeah, I get I guess so, yeah, and it's such a privilege to be able to work with people, I think it's it can be difficult at times, but there's a lot of reward that comes from it, and it's often just the very, very small things. You don't see huge changes every single day, but you use and that's everything. Isn't

Andy Fermo: 4:22

that case, though, isn't. And before we hit, hit record for our audience there. So, yeah, so Jill's got some some really cool other stuff that she does as we which will touch on, which is the which was your training, which I want to steal your thunder by letting on that. But when you're going in for the long haul, just say, if you're in the fitness industry, and if you're hopping on the scales every single day, you're not going to see anything. But if you go, Hey, let's take one at the start, a snapshot, and this snapshot at the middle, and then the snapshot at the end of a certain transformational program, so to speak, that's when you see those changes, right? So you might not see them in your line of work every single day, but that increment. A good change over time. Yeah, and I think it is a bit of a long run thing, as opposed to, like something, like a fad that just might come and go straight away. Yeah, you actually can have some long lasting changes. Yeah,

Unknown: 5:12

absolutely. I think it's important to think about that bigger picture and lay the foundation and then bit brick by brick, on a strong foundation, equating that to the work that I do prior to supporting people back into higher level activities, there's a foundational piece that needs to happen. And in that space, we saw that,

Andy Fermo: 5:36

Okay, excellent. And that's something there, which is the topic that we're going to be really getting right into in the moment, but just so that for our audience, and being a charity that supports veterans and first responders when you're going into it, so that if we can set a bit of a base in the foundation, which we spoke about, for the psychosocial if we try and paint a scenario of what may have happened, how people led to a vocational rehab provider, will that provide some clarity for the psychosocial piece that we're about to go into? Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown: 6:09

I suppose there's a few different types of work that I do. The primary element and focus, most recently for me, has been working with veterans through dva funded programs to support their rehabilitation post service. And generally, our veterans are referred by dva for a rehabilitation assessment and for our recommendations on whether they need a rehab program or not. So typically, they've experienced a medical transition from defense. Some have voluntary, discharged or retired, but typically, the most typical pathway we see is actually a medical transition. So oftentimes, those people weren't planning to leave the military. They were looking for either a career in the military or a set period of time to achieve certain goals within that line of service, and then leave when they chose to leave. For the individuals that we see, that's not the case. They haven't chosen to leave. Some things happen to them, and then they've been thrust into a system that ultimately expels them out of the service. So there's a lot of grief there. There's a lot of unknown about the future. There's a lot of identity questions that pop up. Who am I now without the uniform? Who do I What group do I belong to? Who are my mates, there's so much that sort of is stripped away when somebody leaves a brethren and the community of the military. And I know that you've had this experience personally, and so many of your comrades as well. And so that's typically the person that we see in that veteran space. They've had that process, and then we pick them up, and they might be five years down that road, they might have just left the military, and we do what's called a warm handover with ADF, and we conduct a rehab assessment, so we look at the whole picture. Where is that person at in terms of that transition journey. And each person is different, if it's very fresh and raw, often they need some time for the dust to settle, and important, probably not to overload them, and to look at just establishing a routine and connection with the right supports for others, those that are years down the line, it's about looking at their needs. Their needs are probably different. Are they connected with their community? Are they socially involved? Because that's a huge protective factor, and are they ready to contribute again? And that's a big one, is be of service. Yeah, it is a big one. So my role is all encompassing. It's about connecting people with the right supports, often treatment and medical and allied health supports initially, and then looking at different programs, groups, interest groups, hobbies, courses, to get people out of the house and engaged in something that might interest them, something that might stimulate them cognitively, socially. And then the next piece is that sense of purpose, the contribution, the service, the work. So I guess we yeah, we lay the foundation, and then we build from there,

Andy Fermo: 9:43

amazing. And then do you find that the same as well, in a pathway that, before we record a further first responder setting that foundation there?

Unknown: 9:52

Yeah. Some other work that we do is working with WA Police. We do work with DFAS, the Department of Fire and. Emergency Services as well, and it's fairly similar work. Oftentimes, what we see with WA Police is we are referred individuals who are still working within WA Police and have been injured, physically, psychologically. It may be a work related injury, it may be a non work related injury, and our role is to support them back into the routine of work. If that injury is going to render then them unable to do their role, whether that's operational policing duties or non operational duties, then they may be facing a medical retirement. So a similar process with defense members. There's that saying if you aren't deployable, you're not employable. And there, there are roles within the military, and similarly, within police, where an individual doesn't have to be physically ready to deploy or ready for operational work, yeah, but they, they're few and far between, yeah, and if there is a reason why they are unable to undertake those active duties, oftentimes they're facing some sort of medical process that, or I guess, employer break based process that ultimately renders them unfit for that line of work. So again, you know, massive thing that happens in somebody's life, it's loss of role, purpose, a community, a direction, and so again, we need to help with navigating all of that as well. Yes,

Andy Fermo: 11:37

my bad and navigators are very important, right? So in both sort of industries there, and both communities. Navigation piece is a big one, yeah, and I think part of it's also that journey, which I'm hearing that connection through that journey, and which can be many stops just spoken about, which is huge. So that leads me to that you mentioned that the social aspect, and then that the psychosocial that we're going to talk about. So yeah, let's hook into this. Yeah,

Unknown: 12:06

I guess it's worth defining what psychosocial well being, and it's essentially the feeling that what we're doing with our lives is giving us meaning and purpose, and we're going in the right direction where there's a disruption with that, I guess we have psychosocial dysfunction, and my role as an occupational therapist and as a rehab consultant, supporting people through recovery processes is to help them navigate that psychosocial dysfunction and rebuild their lives. So it sounds incredibly broad, fairly wishy washy, but there is a little bit of science to it as well. Psychosocial Rehabilitation promotes personal recovery, successful community integration and improved quality of life for people, we're looking at helping individuals. Recover and regain lost skills, always focusing on strengths of what people can do, yes, and promoting them to return to health and wellness. I suppose, under the DVA model, they have a definition of psychosocial rehab where they have said it's a broad term used to describe a set of rehabilitation interventions which may improve a client's quality of life, and in so doing, support achievement of their overall rehabilitation goals. In dva, Psychosocial Rehabilitation is delivered as one element within the continuum of support, which may include treatment, vocational rehabilitation and medical management. So we often look at activities to support this process. It may be sporting and recreational activities, maybe clubs, groups, classes, maybe short courses, being programs, also life skills programs. So parenting programs, anger management programs, financial courses, oftentimes we see the barriers to psychosocial well being social, so a lack of connection with others, which has huge health ramifications, and it's something that would be quite keen to go into. Next is looking at social isolation and loneliness and some of the research around that. Oh,

Andy Fermo: 14:38

that's a massive one, isn't it? When we talk about socialization and connectedness. For in this opening part is that when you from lived experience and then talking to so many other guests that have been is that when you're disconnected in that sort of way, especially when it's medically and it's not under your own terms, I try and liken it to when you see that warning that comes in, and you try and. Pull a USB from the computer, and there's a lot of the time. Now, if you've got lots of information passing through there, and you disconnect it, it's going to be all jumbled up, and it's not going to work as well. So that's the way I try and see that those bits. Now, you're like, how do I piece those bits together again? Or, how can I do that? Or how can someone guide me to do this? If that's happened, we were talking about the social isolation and some of the statistics behind that, you said that were quite alarming. Could you share some of those bits in regards to what's happening in that space? Statistic wise?

Unknown: 15:35

Yes, absolutely. So last year 2023 there was a meta analysis. So a look at a number of studies. There were 90 studies that these researchers looked at, and they published this meta analysis in nature human behavior. They found that people that are socially isolated have a 26% risk of increased risk of death compared with those that aren't socially isolated, which is huge. They did look at the difference between social isolation and loneliness, and they found that defining those two areas was quite important in understanding exactly what was going on and which was more detrimental than the other. So social isolation is defined where somebody has a lack of social connection due to being geographically isolated or physically isolating themselves, that it might mean that they live alone and they just have very few connections with people. It's very much an objective state of being, whereas loneliness is the subjective experience of feeling disconnected and in a state of distress because their perceived, I guess, their perception of their social connection is not where they want it to be.

Andy Fermo: 17:05

That's massive. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Unknown: 17:09

And what this research found was that it's social isolation that is the biggest killer, and loneliness is detrimental to health as well. But it's really that lack of social connection, rather than the perception of the lack of social connection. And why this is because, generally speaking, people that are isolated or lonely tend to engage in unhelpful or unhealthy lifestyle behaviors, which is detrimental to their overall health and well being. They might not leave the house as much, not exercise as much. There's an increase in their blood pressure. Generally, there's an increased incidence of cardiovascular issues, increased incidence of being overweight or obese, and there's just that sort of negative spiral that happens from there. So if somebody's not feeling confident about the way they look or how they're feeling, they're going to be less likely to put themselves out there to connect with others. So at the heart of this, what I draw from this is that social connection is massively protective for people and their health, and we know that, particularly with PTSD, people avoid and they withdraw and hyper vigilant about others and what could happen, and so they might put themselves in a position of being socially isolated. What treatment will look to address so psychiatry, psychological therapy, is prepare them to be in a place where they can connect. What psychosocial rehab will do is provide the opportunities or encourage the opportunities for that social connection. So yeah, that the social piece, for me, is fundamental, and knowing what's happening in the community about what people are offering in the community, for veterans, or not for veterans, for anyone that helps with connecting, and that sense of belonging is just so paramount, and

Andy Fermo: 19:33

it's massive. And just so when we talk of when you mentioned before, so what was it the 20 what? 26% more likely? And when you say that could be at risk of death, are we talking about suicide or elements surrounding talking

Unknown: 19:46

about, yeah, all kinds of death. It might be cancer related issues. It might be cardiovascular related issues. So generally, there's more comorbid issues that happen with that population. The lonely or cyber

Andy Fermo: 20:01

isolated. So it might not necessarily just be that one mechanism of, say, a suicidal ideology, that might be doing it, but that could be a very big precursor through isolation. And obviously there's other factors as well that can come in on board, but that's a massive statistic from if you're talking about 10,000 veterans, and if you're all socially isolated, just say during covid, so to speak, that 26% increase as a lot, right? Yeah. So

Unknown: 20:30

it's a big number, yeah, it's very much statistically significant. Need to do something about it and address that core issue of the lack of connection. What is also interesting is that adult men have the fewest friendships of all other demographics, and typically, we see a higher incidence of men that enter the military and consequently leave the military. Certainly, there's a big female population now, but still probably more dominated by males, and that is always at the back of my mind when working with male veterans, is who are they connected with? There's also a staggering statistic that 80% of the defense or veteran community have relationship breakdowns compared with the 50% in the civilian space, wow. Yeah. So it's mostly attributed to the fact that military personnel have had to work away so much and that just causes fractures in relationships. Additionally, in the veteran space, when somebody's gone through that transition of leaving the military and becoming a civilian, that space is so tricky and is fraught with difficulty, and relationships often suffer because of it. So the relationships can be the collateral damage from the occupation or leaving the service as well, and without those protective personal relationships, without friendships or other connections, that does leave one to be very isolated. Well,

Andy Fermo: 22:18

I think, yeah, and you really come on and touched on a really important point, Jill, because when you've got there's a few things that you talked about there, you've got the transition, then you've got the relationship piece, and more often than not, a lot of those things are happening concurrently. So if you're having to deal with lots of I'm dealing with one I've got a really full plate. Then I'm dealing with a relationship breakup, then I'm also dealing with having to work through my own trauma. If I'm seeing someone that's huge, that could really then make them withdraw into that shell. And this is where that real, the importance of that psychosocial connection is, I think, as a bloke now, that's, I'm in my 40s, right? And just the thing is, as a male, it is harder to make new friends because you're so used to either whether you're army mates as well, or a new cohort of people that you go up. I might have trust issues or learning to be able to we might be walking alongside, but you have you earned that actual trust there to be able to go, Look, I'm gonna call you my mate type. That's huge one, and to reintegrate it into like a civilian setting is can be very difficult if you're not okay. I've lost my mates, and I lost that purpose dealing with all this other stuff that's going on. But this is the importance of that, the psychosocial piece, Yeah, isn't that? Now I'm just going to go out and people know what it is that we've had that common thing, which is, might be military, first responder, but now we're doing an activity here that then I can create some new friends or have a new meaning.

Unknown: 23:47

Absolutely, yeah, I think that experience for men in particularly, is quite profound. Making new friends. Men have a different way of connecting with one another than women. Women might be more emotionally focused, whereas men tend to be more task and solution focused and doing and not a lot of talking about feelings. It's difficult to then create connection by being that way. It's certainly not impossible, and my role is about being creative and exploring different opportunities to get people connected. Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 24:27

and then that's through activities, is a great one, and which we're talking about, because then that way you could be there and you could do something, and as a bloke, we could be doing something simultaneously. And you don't need to talk about that example that you used with the with the surfboards, and connected by with the guys having it, like the surfboards, the vehicle that you're coming in, in that safe space to do something, um, another example would be, we spoke about the rallying or come try surfing and or there's some forges in especially this is what I found. I. With, especially guys in that are transitioning out from that, that Special Forces space is that, and blokes in general don't really want to be like talking too touchy feely. But thing is, okay, we're talking about mental health. What is it? So there's this activity, a psychosocial activity, that's based around, you bring this old file in, and then you go and heat it up, and then you do some man bashing. And then by the end of it, you have this, you break this thing down, and then you remold it, very much like going into recruiting from being a Syrian made into a soldier, into this nice, beautiful knife, all right? So that's really manly, right? So this is really cool. Oh, I want to have a go at doing that as well. But at the same time is, the point is that there could be a group of males in that sort of same age group. You don't need to sing Kumbaya, but you're there doing an activity that has meaning and purpose. And by doing something together around fire, which is that holistic point, really can help, yeah? Or doing something that's going to be in the water and I'm in nature,

Unknown: 26:00

yes, yes, yeah. The our veterans Forge is a great organization to military ex military people run that two blokes who had a desire to help people forge connections once they left the military saw that there was a need and did something about it, and yeah, it's wonderful being able to draw on the resources that are there in the community that often very much grassroots programs, often being run by veterans or people who've had some sort of experience with or connection with the military, and that that transition, the difficulty that brings, has touched their lives in some way. Yeah, so yeah, absolutely, it's not about sharing feelings and talking. It's again, about the doing and creating, being active, and with that comes the connection. I

Andy Fermo: 27:03

am in this sort of state where it's been disconnected, you can go into the shell, which is that, that social piece where I'm like, I don't want to see anyone, I don't want to do anything, and and that can be a real it can be a real detriment over time, especially when speed prolonged, isn't

Unknown: 27:18

it? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That social connection is just key to all of this. I think that's that can be a massive element of psychosocial dysfunction, alongside other barriers, like unemployment, that lack of purpose and meaning that we spoke about earlier, a financial issue going on, or financial stress and health issues and concerns as well. So we look at trying to address those barriers one by one through various psychosocial interventions and activities and like DBAs definition said it's about that content continuum of care. So we're one cog in a big wheel. We don't necessarily provide the medical and treatment intervention, but we will help people to connect with the right supports in that space.

Andy Fermo: 28:21

So when you do this assessment, which you mentioned at the start, is finding out what it is that that particular person needs, and then customizing the to what it is that they need. So if they need, if they're if the priorities is that they're looking to have some some specialists come in and some counseling, that might be the bit to be able to at least get them down to to a state which then may think about, okay, let's get your finances in order. And this might be something, the pathway that we're going to go down there one at a time, absolutely,

Unknown: 28:54

absolutely. And we also apply a little bit of scrutiny around whether somebody's ready to engage in our service. Oh, that's a big one. Yeah, it's not necessarily a service that is for everybody, because we need to in our swim lane and do what we do best, focus on doing it well and supporting the people that are ready for the service. So we wouldn't look at turning people away and leave them unsupported. We would help connect people with the right services, depending on where they're at. But if people are looking to really engage and commit to a rehabilitation program, if they're ready, then we want to work with them so that readiness looks like an ability to meet

Andy Fermo: 29:46

us. Oh, okay, so to meet you halfway, halfway,

Unknown: 29:51

we're doing all the work. Then there's something wrong. The individual needs to help themselves and needs to learn how to put their own oxygen mask on. And our job. Is to help them to do that, or encourage them to do that. Yeah, so there's very real conversations that happen there. There can be challenging conversations as well, because if we we're just letting somebody maintain the status quo, we're not doing our jobs and we're not being of service to people. We're looking to really get people standing on their own two feet with whatever support they may need, but ultimately feeling that they've regained some control in their lives and that sense of purpose. Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 30:35

that sounds like it's also it's empowering for them, so when they're ready to empower themselves again, yeah, at that stage, and that, from what I'm hearing Jill, is that that part of that is that willingness to then meet halfway, yes. So if someone's there, willing to work with you to customize something that works for the for the individual and their situation, the individual has to then come and say, hey, look, actually, I'm willing to put in that work. Yeah,

Unknown: 31:03

absolutely nothing ventured, nothing gained, and everything worthwhile is hard as well, and then you reap the reward. So it does take work to be able to build routine again, to be able to get out of the house, put yourself out there, make new connections, try something new in terms of a hobby or an interest, and then ultimately, I guess, get back into the workforce, or some sort of work that you know may not necessarily be paid work, but it helps with that sense of purpose, contribution and meaning, cool

Andy Fermo: 31:47

and so in regards to that, and when, you know, we've talked to like, when someone's ready, but what would be some of the roadblocks from your experience having worked over in the last decade with you know, with the audience, Is that? What are some of the roadblocks that stops people that you found at getting to that point where they're ready to meet someone halfway?

Unknown: 32:08

Look, I think there can be massive medical barriers for people. So if somebody is very unwell, whether that's physically or psychologically, they're not going to be in a place where they're ready to engage in a rehab program fully, so they probably need to spend some time making sure their treatment is optimized and their condition is well managed, if there's a lot of symptoms going on for somebody that could get in the way of their engagement. So I'm talking about pain symptoms. I'm talking about very significant avoidance symptoms as well. A lot of the time we do see presentations of PTSD. We see a lot of depression, anxiety, often those features are part of PTSD as well. We're also seeing a hell of a lot of musculoskeletal injuries that are very chronic. So that brings with it a lot of pain, which impacts sleep, lots of sleep dysfunction. And whilst we want to try and support those conditions and help with the management of those conditions, if they're not well controlled, then that's probably where a medical or service is more appropriate than our service. So again, looking at when whether somebody's ready and whether they're suitable to engage in a rehab program, it's not really worth the investment, because all of this, like I said, initially, our services are funded through DBA. So we're looking at taxpayer funds. There's an obligation to use those wisely, so we're going to get the most bang for buck when somebody's ready.

Andy Fermo: 33:52

Yeah, and then that's a big one as well, because you ultimately the goal is to be able to empower people, then to stand on their own two feet after a few services, but not saying that, if you from what I'm hearing, is that if there's someone at that stage, they're nearly ready, but maybe not for the full shebang. Is that guidance, which is still under the umbrella to help guide the individual to a service that might it's like the pre course work that you need to do is okay, that's actually working on yourself. Yes, am I ready now to then have a cup that's full enough to be able to go, Hey, I'm ready to absorb information. I've got some energy here to overflow now to invest my time in something like a rehabilitation program.

Unknown: 34:36

Definitely, I think what I've always really enjoyed as well about doing this work is it is a well funded space. So compared with our public health service, and certainly compared with the National Health Service in the UK, there are a lot of resources and supports out there for veterans, indeed, I think more so than, say, our local WA Police. Force the Yeah, the Federally run programs under dva for veterans are very good. There's still a way to go with, with spot for the most part, it's it's a generous system, and there's funding there for veterans to receive the care and the treatment that they need, most importantly, and then those secondary services, the Allied Health sort of services as well. And then

Andy Fermo: 35:25

some massive space, though, and you've mentioned it a few times, is that navigation, isn't it, that if you don't know where the stops could be, or what, if you don't know where that those parts are, or the segues from along that journey, that's part of what you guys are also as being of service there, external to the actual like a specific program is helping people navigate what's available. Yeah, like there is so much out there. Isn't there so

Unknown: 35:52

much, it can be a real minefield for people, like overload, right? Yes, definitely. When we're looking at somebody that might have PTSD. We need to be mindful that they potentially can't access all of their brain all of the time, and so there is that sense of overload. They often are operating in that real fight or flight mode, and we need to do some of that legwork for them in helping them navigate the chaos. I suppose what is worth speaking to is the organization where I work in Site Solutions Group was founded by three women who were previously working for the Commonwealth rehabilitation services, which was a federally run department that would actually support military members as well as veterans with all of these services, that department was then shut down, and so A lot of those services ended up becoming privatized, and my three directors built their business insight solutions group because they wanted to continue to work with this population of people. So there is a lot of wisdom there, and a lot of experience with, you know, the entire history of the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Australian Defense Force as well, and we are pretty adept at helping people navigate those systems. I bring a slightly unique set of experience as well, having worked on with the tri services and some of the subgroups within those services. So I mentioned before RAF base, Williamtown, I was also at singleton infantry base when I returned to wa I've I worked at hms. Yes, thank you. Garden Island, Campbell barracks as well. Okay, so there's been that Army, Navy, Air Force exposure, worked with Submariners, worked with SAS Special Forces and clearance divers as well. And bringing that into an organization that works with veterans is super helpful, because we're able to understand where it all started for people, what that military experience was like, what it's actually like to be in a submarine and work in those incredibly unique environments. I think for you, it's probably second nature. This is all normal stuff, but for civilians, it's not normal. It's incredibly unique. And a lot of the health professionals working with defense or ex defense members don't necessarily understand what it's really like to be in those environments. So I think that's a helpful element that we can offer.

Andy Fermo: 38:55

So having that lived experience in the space, even from a provider that's actually been there that's like, okay, cool. I'm speaking with a cohort of people from this space. And an example would be a single the guys at Singleton, yeah, that's primarily a training facility, and so the needs of those members would be a little bit different as to someone that if you come across all the way from the East Coast to the West Coast, and let's use the Sterling and sub mariners, that's a different environment. Again, it's primarily operational. They're even the full time service, and their conditions are a little bit different, even though you might be in close proximity. I'm just thinking about how those guys live pretty much on top of each other. You can't get away. There's that aspect, you're going away for a long time, that's one bit. Yeah, so isolation from from immediate support group could be one thing, and loved ones, you know, and all those things. And then if we're going over to somewhere like the SAS, the camel barracks in Perth, I'm just thinking, there's a lot of, there's a lot of compartmentalization with how you're going to go about it. So then trying to find a way that works for people. And their situation when they can't divulge all their stuff that they're experiencing would be okay. How can I talk? Or how can I connect with a with the individual that's working in that space? Yeah, to be able to say, okay, but we're not, I'm not asking you about your operational details. Let's see, but let's talk about you as an individual and what you're experiencing, and what we can

Unknown: 40:19

help is that, yeah, absolutely. I found that showing that we can speak the language, because there is a real difference in the language between military and civi Street, that that's everything. We don't have to get into detail. In fact, we don't want to, and that's not our role. It's just about having that empathy around where it all started for that person.

Andy Fermo: 40:43

That's a big one. Isn't the empathy. You don't actually have to be walking in that shoe. It's just empathizing. It's just, let's walk a lot inside with you and explore in lifeline. They call it being walking with someone or being with someone in their pain, right? You don't actually have to be the person that's jumped into it, because you're actually guiding them through. Someone pulls you into it. If they're drowning, and they pull you in. They want to be two people drowning. You want to be here's the lifeline boy type thing. Yeah, and you can empathize with they're going through something. Yeah, we don't need to rip open the

Unknown: 41:15

wound. No, no, that's right, absolutely. I like to use the analogy of driving a car, and the individual I'm working with, I really force them to be in the driver's seat. They're driving the car, and I'm in the passenger seat, maybe looking at the roadmap. Maybe the road map's upside down, and we're trying to navigate our way ahead. But the crux is, there's somebody there in the passenger seat reading the roadmap, and the individual is in the driver's seat. They have control. They don't have to necessarily follow the directions, because it's their life. And

Andy Fermo: 41:55

that is, it is very true. And on that yesterday, or just recently, I was talking to someone, well, two people just recently, and we're talking about this navigation and the driver, because people in the motorsport industry that are helping out with these programs, and a critical part of, say, rally or motorsport racing, is having someone as the Navigator. The driver might be driving at 200 kilometers an hour, or whatever it is, through the bush, let's say in a rally. And the navigators like reading this map. Okay, easy, left, easy, right. We've got a big hairpin turn here. Now they're just saying what's ahead? What's ahead in on that map? Yes, but ultimately, what you're saying is that drive is in control of how they go around it, right? So if we've got a hairpin turn that's 180 degrees, I'm going to have to do some things, knowing that the navigators said something's coming up. Yes, and we've got to make that action. But ultimately, that drivers in there, the navigators just in the seat, strapped in tight, right, holding on for dear life,

Unknown: 42:56

yes. And the what I see there is, there's a team, yes, it's not doing it solo, it's doing it together and being connected, and sometimes being shown the way, or sometimes being allowed to explore where that way is. And that's the beauty of the role that I sit in, is I never know really where we're going to go, but it's about trusting the process and, yeah, and allowing each individual to really make their own way. Yes, yeah,

Andy Fermo: 43:35

I think. And that's the thing, though, isn't it? There's a saying in the military as well, you can be lost. Lost is one thing and then, but then there's that other saying, we're trying to flip that coin is, I could be lost for a little bit, but then they have a bit of a cry. And they used to say, oh, Nate, have a cry. Get it all out cry. Bring your mom. That's type thing. And then, but when you sit down to it, you can go, I'm actually just geographically embarrassed, alright, so not lost. I'm geographically embarrassed, and I just need to find a way go introspective and then have you cry, or whatever it is, and this is from a military perspective, so I don't want to trigger anyone here or put anyone I'm not putting anyone down and just thinking actually I'm geographically embarrassed. But what is it that I need to do now to be able to get out and from a navigational point of view, that one of the tools was called a resection. Let's find some bearings around here. Jill might be holding the map upside down, so we're going to look for some landmarks that are here, and then we're going to then triangulate to see where we are, and then from there, and then maybe find a way to go through these destinations. It's not the destiny, the destination is the goal at the end, but that journey and the learning and the growth comes from actually doing, isn't it? And experiencing those things from the individual, actually experiencing those things, and having a go, yeah? Being introspective at what works best for them. That's what I'm hearing.

Unknown: 44:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think having. A Go is key, and sometimes we have to encourage somebody to fake it until they make it, which I feel like that's what I'm doing today on a podcast. It's just about trying, and it's maybe about having somebody's hand to hold whilst jumping into the deep end. We're going to be there no matter what. Jill, I

Andy Fermo: 45:22

was guiding that today, so the powers out, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I've got just a backup. I've got a backup here. I've got the I got the power bank. We're going to do the Okay, I want to do this. And then I came here and she's got all of the notes, all the stuff that we're talking about. And it's just an amazing process that's happening. So she's dived into the deep end, and we're doing it

Unknown: 45:44

right? So by example, yeah, you're my navigator

Andy Fermo: 45:48

for this part anyway, yeah,

Claire Fermo: 45:55

join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe for more great content. Follow us on our socials, on Instagram, and you can also visit our website, www.invisibleinjuries.org.au. Where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries. You