S05E22 - Gillian Yates (Incite Solutions Group) VocRehab pt2

In Part 2 and final episode of Invisible Injuries season 5, Andy Fermo continues his conversation with Gillian Yates, diving deeper into the rehabilitation journey for veterans and first responders. The episode explores how Insight Solutions Group customises its approach to help clients overcome psychosocial barriers like social isolation. Gillian explains that recovery often starts with small steps, like casual meetups for coffee or walks, where veterans are encouraged to reconnect with others and begin re-engaging with their community.

A key theme is empowerment—helping individuals take control of their lives again after years of military service or first responder roles where they were always told what to do. The conversation highlights the importance of giving clients the opportunity to make decisions and set their own goals, with Gillian emphasising that rehabilitation is about “doing” rather than just reflecting.

The episode also covers vocational rehabilitation, where the focus shifts to preparing clients to return to the workforce. Gillian explains how vocational assessments help determine whether veterans need additional training or can repurpose their existing skills for civilian jobs. 

The episode concludes with a discussion on the first responder community, particularly WA Police, where stigma around seeking help is slowly diminishing as mental health issues are openly acknowledged and supported within the organisation.

Key Takeaways | Insight

1. Start Small, Build Confidence | Rehabilitation starts with small steps, like casual meetups to break isolation.
2. Customized Recovery Plans | Each rehabilitation plan is tailored to individual needs and interests.
3. Empowering Veterans | Veterans learn to take control of their lives after being used to military orders.
4. Rehabilitation is About “Doing” | Progress is made by taking action, not just reflecting on past experiences.
5. Vocational Rehabilitation Focus | Helping veterans re-enter the workforce through training or repurposing skills.
6. Civilianization Challenges | Veterans must adapt to less structured civilian work environments.
7. Soft Communication Skills | Direct military communication styles need softening in civilian settings.
8. Work Trials | Veterans can try new jobs through work trials before fully committing.
9. Support in First Responder Communities | WA Police are becoming more open to mental health support without stigma.
10. Evolving Purpose | The goal is to help veterans evolve, not discard, their military experiences.

Contact -  Gillian Yates
Website: https://www.incitesolutions.com.au/
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

Disclaimer: The accounts and stories are "Real lived experiences" of our guests some of the content may trigger Post Traumatic Stress (PTS) symptoms in some of our audience. Feedback regarding other organisations, courses and initiatives remains largely unsensored. Whether its good or bad they remain the OPINION of our guests and their experiences it is important in building an accurate statistic on what really happens. 
During the course of our conversations sometimes sensitive information may be accidentally mentioned, as such, Invisible Injuries respects the law and sensors any information that may breach Operational Security OPSEC

Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

I welcome to invisible injuries podcast aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of veterans, first responders and their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress by sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, the support staff and the clinicians. It's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311, 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo,

Andy Fermo: 1:03

so we've got the process for the rehabilitation process. Have we covered a bit of that? Someone's ready. Now let's go along that line there, someone's ready. You've done your little checks there. Someone's gone away if they weren't ready, and now they're ready. They said, Oh, you're ready for this, this to do, to do some work in a rehabilitation program. Yes, it's a bit scary, but I'm willing now to do some work. Where to from here.

Unknown: 1:33

Great question, where to depends on where they want to go. And if that is a little bit vague and hazy, then potentially I jump into the driver's seat for a little bit and take a bit more control, be a bit more assertive with what the options might be until that person is ready to jump back in the driver's seat. Typically, we start with Psychosocial Rehabilitation, and specifically looking at a couple of activities that will help to overcome whatever psychosocial barrier that person is facing. So a typical barrier that we see, which I mentioned before, is social isolation. They've left the community, the fold, the mateship of the military, and now there's nothing. And oftentimes what we see is a reluctance to engage with the ex service community. For whatever reason, I typically find that there's that initial reluctance to engage and ultimately welcome it with open arms, but typically a real reluctance to potentially leave the house, try something new, connect with civilian people, and so it doesn't really leave a lot of opportunity for connection. So we look at addressing that first. And it may be that, you know, a small one on one or small group type environment might be the best fit first or even online options. You know, if community engagement in person is not possible, but slowly but surely, looking to tackle that psychosocial barrier of social isolation and promote connection. And just in the sessions that we have, it's a lot of talking, it's a lot of looking at where somebody's at in terms of achieving their goals and plotting the next steps to address the next goal or work towards that original goal that is social connection, we try and demedicalise the service that we run. So it's not about being a clinical service or a real sterile kind of service. It's about being real life and potentially going for a walk and talk meeting or meeting at a cafe, having a coffee. And in all of that, you know that person's having to leave the house, is having to navigate, ordering a coffee and talking to somebody at the counter and then engage with us. And

Andy Fermo: 4:17

that's really interesting, that you're saying that Joe, because those little processes there when someone's not in a state, whatever that might be for them, and it's preventing them from leaving the house and they're feeling isolation. Those little steps are massive, massive for people when they leave the house, when we're going to do, I'm going to go and do an activity now, might be walking and talking, but then they might get in the head. I'd love to talk about my problems and all this. And the thing is, when you're actually and from seeing so many different groups that are providing this, let's walk and talk or coffee catch up. So there's many out there. It's a lot of the organizers that only they just rock up. I think that that feeling of safety, of being. Able to say, Yeah, okay, cool, such and such is a new person. Welcome. You don't need to. It's just about being introduced to new people. Okay? But we're going to be here. You want to order your coffee. What is it that you've got people of being of service? And then you go, I don't need you to talk about your ailment or whatever you're going through. It's just okay. We've, we've got something in common here that's doing this, but we've actually got an activity. It's through an activity based that we can actually go and do something, whether it's walking and being fit, if you're able to do that and have some mindful movement, or starting to socially engage by having conversations with people. And there's a lot that you can find out from that. Actually, I'm not in that social isolation bubble that I thought it was Yeah, because we are going through the same thing through conversation, yeah, yeah,

Unknown: 5:46

absolutely, yeah, totally. And a big part of our role in guiding somebody through this rehab process is to understand what sorts of community activities are on offer.

Andy Fermo: 5:59

Could you give me some typical ones? Then you've got so many, we talked touched on to it. We've got, like, a walking group or, yeah, or a coffee catcher. People are varied interests. So what are some of the interests there that we could then, I

Unknown: 6:12

suppose, in terms of that, just that walking and coffee that might be the way that we as the rehab provider connect with the individual, so that that might not be the psychosocial activity, per se, but it's still working towards achieving that goal of addressing their social isolation. But it's a safe space where we know the background. We've already done that initial rehabilitation assessment with them. We know what the goals are, and like, go out, meet them for a coffee, and we're looking at, okay, what are we doing to address this goal? Yeah, how? What sort of building blocks are we going to put in place to do this? And this is where the community activities come into play. So it might be that I help this person by doing a meet and greet with an organization. Let's say your organization, for example, where you provide yoga services to veterans. So we might do a meet and greet with you. Or there's a lovely organization connected by that focus on building surfboards with veterans, but also non veterans alike. So civilian people, and they've got a space where anyone can go and knock up the surfboard in weeks, months. They could take a year to do it. And in doing that, there's a sort of small group environment that's established there. In doing that, they get to focus on their wood they're building surrounded by other people. Whether they want to talk to those people or not is up to them, but the opportunity for the social connection is there in a safe space.

Andy Fermo: 7:58

Yeah. And so going to that bit where you said, when you know, with you doing your coffee catch up and walking, that's almost like the meeting me halfway is that you're I'm taking the time to meet you at a location, and you're coming to meet me here, but then we're walking together. We're walking down the path, navigator and driver walking down the path. Then to see what it is that's most likely as a what I'm hearing is that as an OT that you can't read people's minds. And by saying, Hey, this is the blanket thing that we send everyone to. Isn't really a custom or class of bespoke to their needs, yeah. And it's all really needs based, which adds an element of difficulty to it, because then you can't just go. It's not one size fits all, no. And then, and then these other activities that are coming in, and they're more activities, enhancing opportunities is a big one, isn't it? That word that you've said a few times as well is that the opportunity for someone to do it is like leading the horse to the water bait exactly

Unknown: 8:54

you take, yes, exactly Yeah, and if somebody is so I guess the picture I've painted there is potentially somebody that is really tentative, quite avoidant, really hasn't got many skills to do their own research. They're not in a place where they can access the skills to be able to come up with their own ideas about what they want to do. So there's a little bit more guidance. There a little bit more support, but I'm always working towards, again, being strengths based and promoting somebody to take charge of their own life. This can be a challenge for some people, where they've been in a military environment, and they've been told what to do for a decade, for two decades, they've been told what to do, where to be, what time to turn up, what to wear, so they don't realize that when they leave that they now have full control,

Andy Fermo: 9:52

empowered by choice, or disabled by choice. Too

Unknown: 9:55

much it can be completely overwhelming, paralysis from over analysis or from two. Much absolutely decision paralysis, get what time to get up in the morning, what to wear. Basically,

Andy Fermo: 10:08

here's the snooze button. Any consequences today that's

Unknown: 10:13

no longer being able to train physically at the level that they once did, and so no sort of exercise happens, and there's this real snowball effect. I've always got that in the back of my mind, and always looking to one, meet, meet somebody where they are, but two, I guess, push, push them a little to regain control. So that might be doing a bit of research into what sort of art groups there might be in their local area, and then going along to said art group to check it out, to do some recon and see if it's going to be suitable recon. Hey,

Andy Fermo: 11:01

yeah, I like it. So she's talking the language. Yeah? Awesome. Jill, yeah, the Recon is important.

Unknown: 11:08

It is important, yeah, and we might be able to facilitate that process for people and do the meet and greet, or let somebody do that on their own. And maybe it's a good fit, maybe it isn't a good fit, but being able to make that decision and feel empowered to make that decision is huge. Once that decision has been made about what activity is actually going to be helpful for that person and address that underlying psychosocial barrier, it's about doing it, not talking about it now, actually doing it, jumping in and in terms of, you know, My professional background, I have a strong belief that the therapy is about the doing, the doing. Yes, yes. It's not about the wallowing and the sitting back and talking about it. It's about taking action. So

Andy Fermo: 12:02

there's always time for from what I'm hearing is there's time for reflective exercises, but that's after the doing, right? So because you can only reflect once you've done it, yes, but if you're reflecting on something that might have been done in the past, and this is what I'm hearing, right? So reflecting, if you're not in that sort of space at the moment, I'm reflecting on my service way back then. What could happen that you can give yourself some really negative connotations about I used to be able to do this. Now I'm no longer able to do this, and now I'm out and I'm away from all but if you're then going ready to do something new, I'm ready to maybe repurpose what I already know, but I don't quite know it yet, because the things are a bit hazy. Someone's taken that driver's seat that you were talking about. Okay, well, here, now, right? This. Okay, let's give you these options then, to empower you to do this, because now, giving you the introduction, or you've gone and done your own recce, feel comfortable about the space here. Now it's actually okay.

Unknown: 12:58

Now let's do it. Yes, the

Andy Fermo: 13:00

big one. Yes, you're not going to get fit in an RPM class if you're thinking about rolling those feet over.

Unknown: 13:07

Yeah, you got to show up and jump in. And military people are actually really good at doing that. It's what they've been trained to do. So we can tap into those resources that they have and that training that they've had, yes,

Andy Fermo: 13:27

absolutely amazing. Yeah, and showing up is and I think that's one thing, though we had that choice to be able to go and do something, right? So I don't need to get up to do this time. But just, and I use an example of the yoga, and then I just said this to our veterans the other day, Jill, is that, man, you guys are awesome. You know why? Because you're always here well before time, or at least five or 10 minutes before you need to be here. And that really helps with with this, because you get to have a bit of banter. You get to do it before the activity that help helps put people in a good, relaxed space. And I find that veterans and first responders are really good at showing up punctually, so that's at the correct time beforehand, and then they're there. And that's a really empowering thing to know that you can be there on time and then do this, and showing up yes before that needs to be done is massive. And I said, Look, man, you guys are always on time. They're there, and that's what I love about it, yeah, yeah. I know that community is going to be they say, be there at 930 they're there at like, 920 Yeah.

Unknown: 14:30

No, no such thing as fashionably late. Gosh, I'm laughing because I am that typical civilian that is fashionably late and forging a career the way that I have with military work and then working with veterans, I've really had to look at myself and adjust. Or, you know, if I am going to be that sort of five minutes late, communicate well ahead of time. That's what's happening. But. I guess this is quite a nice segue into looking at what comes after psychosocial rehab, really, in the space that we work in, it's vocational rehabilitation we're typically working with, or always working with, people that are of working age, so before the retirement age, and we want to support them to re enter the workforce, to redeploy into something new. And there's a real big adjustment there. If somebody has been in the military for years, decades, in adjusting to the civilian sort of way of doing things, one of those key elements, is time and punctuality and normalizing tardiness in in civilian work settings, because it can wind veterans up no end that their boss was five minutes late or their colleague did not respect time as much as they did, and sometimes that that can actually lead to a real breakdown in that person's ability to perform that role with that organization. So there's a lot of what I call civilianization that needs to happen to support that person to be successful in a new environment. And I guess, yeah, to redeploy effectively. So

Andy Fermo: 16:21

when we redeploy effectively, and what would typically be, can you expand on some of those things you like, some things that need to happen in civilianization. You mentioned earlier before, about you learning the language of speaking the language of the cohort that you're speaking, that you're servicing, right? Yeah, you're talking about this now, the civilianization from a military the other way around. Yes, and what does that look like? Look

Unknown: 16:45

I think time, that example of time, is a big one, and I don't necessarily think that ex military individuals need to change in a drastic way. In that sense, it's just about being a little bit more flexible. About not so rigid, yeah,

Andy Fermo: 17:04

yeah. Like your shoulders a little bit, yeah. Remove the character. You're walking a little bit stiff. Just relax

Unknown: 17:13

a little Yes. So a little bit more flexible. And that that has its whole whole there's a whole big space to explore there, around being able to relax about being more mindful, being in the moment, not over planning and over analyzing. So that's a lot of the pre work that we would do in that psychosocial space, to to support somebody to be really ready for work. Aside from time, there's some soft skills that we look at as well. Military people bring massive skills in terms of communication, ability to work with teams, ability to lead and take charge as well. So those are huge pluses and very attractive for civilian employers, actually, but where there can be a pitfall with some of that is the very direct communication.

Andy Fermo: 18:16

That's what I love about when I'm working with you, Julissa, you're very direct, yeah, but it is. It can be, isn't it?

Unknown: 18:24

It can be off putting to people that haven't been in those environments that require very clear, very purposeful, very direct comms, because people's lives are on the line. There's no time to fluff around when we're out of that military setting. Now, it's a different jungle there. There might be a lot of time, and a lot of people haven't had that exposure to that direct form of communication, and so just softening a little bit is worthwhile, yeah. So

Andy Fermo: 18:59

like that sort of a bit of aggression. It can come across. It could come be, it could be perceived, yeah, as that aggression. And that's something that you So, right? Because learning that language now, when you're an example, would be, I need resources for such and such thing is, Hey mate, boom. This is what we need. We need it here by this time, Hey, man, I just wanted to chat with you, how's your day going? Maybe, do you reckon maybe that you can fit in in your busy schedule? To do this, this is what we're requiring. Is that something that maybe you might be able to deal with it? Point, swear word, yeah. I need this now, right? Is just that softening? Yeah, I think there's in communications and signals. In particular, they used to call it. There was an acronym. It was called clap, which is clear, loud as an order with pauses, all right, so then that's when you're actually directing, yes, giving an order to someone that's all communicating. That's what you just said, right? Yes. Sometimes people go, hold on a second. This guy's full of. I've heard this person full on actually wasn't being too full on this missionary job. Yeah.

Unknown: 20:07

Now I don't think it's necessary to really swing the complete other way and be overly engrossed in being really wishy washy or too soft in the communication style, people don't need to completely change. And what is so wonderful is that military people will bring that experience and that niche communication style into a new workplace, which actually could help that workplace. So it's just about finding that balance and fine tuning ever so slightly, or just being aware that it could be a thing just to, Hey, watch out for this. It might be a thing for you. Yes,

Andy Fermo: 20:53

absolutely. Because just putting that sort of, trying to use some analogies there, instead of being little less abrasive, isn't it? If you've got, if you got, like, a sharp edges on a bit of something like that's sharp, maybe let's get the file and just round off the edges, and then take a little bit, because it's still the structures in and just softening that little bit there. So then that way the perception of what it is, because it might not be as critical in that example that you use, the vibes can be on the line. We need to mission focus this right now. There still could be a mission, but it's about, okay, there's a little bit more time, yes, less a little bit less of consequence. So then that way you can actually soften that yes action a little bit. Yeah,

Unknown: 21:35

I think so. One example might be email communication. I know in the military, there's a lot of acronyms that are used, and there might not be hello so and so, it just is the person's name or no name, and just the message, and that's it. No no sort of sign off either. And that's okay. It might be perceived as somewhat abrasive, somewhat insensitive. So a simple Hi, so it's not using acronyms as much, chat later or thanks, and then a bit of a sign off. That's great little tips like that.

Andy Fermo: 22:14

And not in caps. I had to bash that out of me, like writing in capital, yeah, all caps. That's like shouting, but the basic,

Unknown: 22:25

yeah, look very basic, but practical. Yeah, that's what our role is in that space.

Andy Fermo: 22:32

So some of those things that soft skills, time, a little bit of flexibility around the communication and how it may be perceived from someone in the civilian community. Maybe another one, what would be another?

Unknown: 22:45

Another one, I think, is learning to tolerate processes being a little longer, taking a bit more time to come to fruition in the civilian space, if somebody gets an order or a direction, it may not be delivered then and there. There might be a bit of a time, a bit of time before there's a response. And so there's less urgency. There's just more space from stimulus and response. And so again, tools like being able to be mindful, to relax, to down regulate, helps with that ability to go with the flow and take things as they come.

Andy Fermo: 23:35

Yes, isn't it? That's the thing, yeah. And that's massive, breaking it down into these little steps about how these tools that are like from a holistic point of view, these tools can actually be implemented in being able to have that transitional stage, especially once we're ready in a program. How is it that I can then use my skills to then repurpose them, and these are some of those skills that I need to be able to reintegrate as best as I can, yeah, and it is going to take time. Time is a big one, but more time you mentioned that before is just like, Okay, going with the flow. It's not going to happen overnight. Is Yeah, yeah, no, with along that process, yeah,

Unknown: 24:15

that's right. And then I guess the next piece is about being confident in the skills that somebody has acquired through their military experience, and being confident to use those and bring those to the table, to step up, sometimes, when that might be needed, to take on leadership roles, to really encourage cohesive teamwork. Because I think a lot of civilian workplaces could do with that. And so there's huge skills that military people can bring to the table, and it's about being confident about using those skills

Andy Fermo: 24:55

Exactly. And I'm thinking we use the an example of, just say, someone that was on the. Time there was a team leader in, say, infantry or whatever section that they were, from a military point of view, you're working in the small teams that's got that middle management in, say, corporate world, you're having to give directions and orders for a job to be done, and being able to follow up or not to trust your team that they know what their roles are going to be. Very important. I'm just saying I'm using the corporate world, but in any other, many other roles in the civilian world, those things can come in. But then what we were talking about just before, as well, fitting those bits in and repurposing those skills need to be done with a little bit more finesse and those softer skills of not having as high expectations to have things done yesterday, it's going to take some time, and how I go about asking someone to do that? Yes, I'm not giving, I'm giving the direction of what needs to be done as an order, so to speak, but not so assertively that it's comes racing. Yes,

Unknown: 25:58

that's right. I think a key part in that is that whilst there might still be hierarchy and structure to an organization, there's a lot less rigidity in that somebody that may be at the ground level of the hierarchy is able and is allowed to speak with somebody at the top of The hierarchy, and that is what happens in the civilian space. And so that's a complete shift in terms of the structure of an organization. And again, a little bit more flexibility with that, not taking offense if somebody doesn't follow the chain of command, it's not the end of the world, if that happens?

Andy Fermo: 26:42

Yeah. And then I suppose also something that was that, is that, is that the civilian words a lot different to military or as a first responder, so there's a lot of political correctness that can also that, that people have to that's different, that's a different topic. Yes, altogether. I don't want to be, I don't want to be ripping any band aids or triggering it on that issue that is very much a big one as well, that people also have to accept being in that different environment, that it's not as rigid as what a military or first responder role model,

Unknown: 27:11

yeah, yeah. And I think that new environment can actually help with recovery in the end, it's more relaxed, and so that that will help to encourage somebody to be at ease that little bit more. We don't want to constantly be in that overly stressed state and ready at any time that ready state. It's actually not helpful for us all of the time, because there's too much stress hormone cortisol, running through the system and over time that has an impact on our bodies and our health. So there's a lot to be said about that integration into the civilian way of doing things, and not so much disregarding the military roots, but evolving Absolutely And one great tool to support with this process initially is looking at a work trial. One of the first steps we might do with somebody that's ready to re enter the workforce is actually trial a job, no strings attached. Try it before you buy.

Andy Fermo: 28:22

Try before you buy. Yeah. And so how was someone as an OT when you've got someone in the program, they've committed to doing this activity and they're rocking up as part of that care that you're doing as the case officer for that particular person, what then do you guys do like when you're checking up on the clients when they're in that program? What does that look like? Or what can people expect?

Unknown: 28:48

Generally, it's fairly informal. It's a sort of informal check in. There's fairly regular checkpoints where we want to continue to build a relationship and trust with our client, and we want to check in on their progress. So it might be as simple as, how has the week gone? Tell me about what you've been getting up to. How are we going with this goal? Somebody's goal might be to leave the house three times a week and engage in an art class. Engage in an art class is the activity and the goal that they're trying to achieve is becoming less isolated, less housebound, and so we'll be about talking about how they're going with that, and if there are barriers to them achieving that goal, looking at how we can together overcome those barriers, we might use evaluation tools to help with building some data as well. So generally, in the initial assessment phase, we would do some sort of screening tool that gives us some sort of outcome. Measures in terms of how somebody's going, whether that's how they're going psychologically, how they feel about how they're going, or how they're going physically, if they've got a physical injury, it might be a very holistic, global sort of tool that we use as well to look at overall sort of quality of life, and we might look at re administering that tool at periodic times in the program, and also at the end of the program, to really evaluate how somebody is gone and to gather data around building the efficacy For the program. But going back to what I said before, there's less focus on being clinical, being a medically driven it's about being real life and not being a treatment or therapeutic service, because that's generally already happening for somebody, yeah, yeah. If it's not, they've probably graduated from that therapy or treatment and completed that so our service is different to treatment. It's, I guess, a treatment adjunct,

Andy Fermo: 31:13

yeah, and so so on that. So we've got that psychosocial piece, reducing the isolation and you mentioned before we hit record as well, that there was other pathways in terms of being able to repurpose or relearn new skills in terms of the courses or training that might be available to our client, the client. What could that be look like

Unknown: 31:37

in terms of psycho socially, or, yeah,

Andy Fermo: 31:41

like, it's like, would they be in a is that sort of, you mentioned before, there was the therapeutic courses where you know if you're going in, but can they go and then also learn some new skills that say, like, a TAFE, or there might be some, yeah, sure. So if they were keen on maybe a new vocation, but they didn't quite have all the skills in terms of, once they got out, this is what the skill is. They might maybe require a couple of other skills to bring them up. I'm

Unknown: 32:07

following you. Yeah, certainly, one of the precursors to looking at re engaging in the workforce is determining if somebody has relevant skills to re enter the workforce, and relevant and current. So they might have had some exposure to say, various IT programs 10 years ago. That space has very much changed in that time, and so they might need to upskill in that space, and there's absolutely provision to be able to do that under a rehabilitation program. That's when the focus of the program goes from a psychosocial focus into a vocational focus. A vocational program means the overall goal is return to work. There's no hard and fast timeline with when that has to happen, compared with some in the civilian space, in terms of other schemes that support injured workers, there's very strict timelines around when somebody might need to get back into work. The dva processes are less pressurized, and so we have the luxury of time to be able to explore and really, really sustainably get somebody back into good, meaningful work. Yeah, we would typically do a vocational assessment to have a look at what somebody's skills are, what they work experience is what their interests are as well, and whether they have the skills and abilities to be able to engage in tertiary training, if that's necessary as well, because that's a whole beast into itself, going to uni or going to TAFE and learning something new, it takes quite a bit of discipline. And again, it takes that person needing to be ready to do that. There's a big financial commitment that you know, dva have on the line in terms of retraining somebody as well. So we want to put forward the right people for the right training to ensure that they're going to go into the type of work that's right for them. Yes, so that vocational assessment isn't is an all encompassing process that might take one session, if somebody is really quite clear on on what direction they want to head in, or it could take a few sessions there. There's generally a bit of work that the client needs to do as well, which might involve work experience, work trials, actually putting themselves out there in different types of industries to get a feel for which direction they want to go. Go in and get some skin in the game. If they're looking at doing some sort of tertiary training, whether that be a university bachelor's course or a TAFE program, and they're not sure about how they're going to go with studying, then we would look at recommending a sort of get ready for study, study prep, type, course. Okay,

Andy Fermo: 35:23

so pathways there, so that reducing those roadblocks that people might be setting themselves around, yeah,

Unknown: 35:28

really making sure they're conditioned and ready, just like somebody in the infantry goes through recruit school, then goes through infantry training, and then they are welcomed into the infantry fold. The same thing needs to happen here, wherein, if somebody hasn't studied before, we want to make sure that one, they've got the aptitude for it and they're ready, and two, they've actually got some skin in the game, and they've showed that they know how to build a study routine, because they've done a study prep course, they've passed the course, and now they're ready for a formal study program. And

Andy Fermo: 36:08

this is where I'm thinking that I'm seeing that, which comes back to that also the psycho skill sets. A lot of this stuff as as the provider, is that you're guiding someone, but you've got these multiple pathways that can be happening at the same time. So one's building you up, then you get there. That doesn't mean that if you've done these activities and enjoying being sorry, getting into the reduction of social isolation by doing activities, that helps also put you in a good mindset to be able to learn and do something, because then you've got these other activities going on concurrently. Yeah, definitely.

Unknown: 36:40

And look, a lot of time people don't have to retrain. They can repurpose the skills that they've already got and the experience they've got to date and re enter the workforce immediately. It might be so I've got a massive success story that I really love chatting about. One of my veteran clients thought that they wanted to do a degree and thought that was their pathway, and it was going to add a lot of time before they were able to then get into work, which was the ultimate goal. Instead, what we were able to do was find a really niche, suited work trial the person was able to test out this new industry, figure out if it was for them. The workplace recognized the years of experience that this and at the end of the work, trial offered a an incredibly well paying role, full time role, and this person accepted, and now they are working, and it's just

Andy Fermo: 37:45

a well paid role,

Unknown: 37:49

yeah, without the need to go and get that degree, because that work experience that they had was considered just as good, just as much as the piece of paper, if not more than the piece of paper. And through their sort of military time, they had gained skills and quals as well. And so those calls were repurposed through a process called recognition of prior learning, okay, which we would do again in that vocational assessment phase to help understand what military experience, how the military experience and work converts into civilian qualifications. Yeah, love that example of how a work trial, which might seem fairly simple, actually was pivotal in this person's entire rehab process and journey.

Andy Fermo: 38:44

That's amazing, because then what you find I'm hearing is that sometimes, if you haven't been been guided through this navigation process of being ready to go back into the workforce, what you might think is I need to do A, B and C, but actually I've all got all these skills from my years and lived experience and everything that's accumulated, maybe perhaps the recognition of prior learning might do that. And the opportunity to go into this this role and have a go, once you're ready to do that, is amazing. And then the opportunities could come out where, in this case, the person who's offered an well paid role helps. That helps with transition a little bit more, because then that also covers off on the financial

Unknown: 39:26

absolutely, yeah, uncertainty. It's a really good point, and it's a huge piece we're always and DBAs mission is to ensure that somebody can get back into a role that is commensurate with what earnings they were previously on in the military, if more, yeah, so just never go backwards, but to keep moving forwards in terms of that financial piece, so yeah, we wouldn't be expecting somebody to lower their standards around what they, you know, earn. And expect to be paid, yes. So if that means they they do need to retrain, then we can certainly support that study pathway, provided the other boxes are ticked in being able to justify that is the right pathway for that person, yeah, yeah. What I like about my earlier example as well is that this person was in their mid 50s, doing a degree was going to add on a lot of time and potentially make it less possible to re enter the workforce being that little bit older. So we got to circumnavigate all of that and get work happening earlier, and I think they're probably better for it.

Andy Fermo: 40:46

Yeah, that's that is such a great story.

Unknown: 40:50

It is. There's other examples of we've got a client who has done got their real estate license. That's not necessarily that traditional tertiary pathway in terms of university or TAFE, but they presented and were keen to work with people very confident had those skills to be able to sell. And so they've gone into that industry, very different from wearing a uniform and being in the military, but repurposed some of those skills that they had gained.

Andy Fermo: 41:26

What's that like when you actually see someone, you working with someone for a while that sort of it takes a while for them to really open up and go, Well, I'm really trusting my guide and my OT and my case officer. Now, what's that like for you from looking at from the other side of the that fence there to be able to see, oh, actually, do you have these skills and repurposing in that change in mindset from from the client? What's that like?

Unknown: 41:50

Oh, look, it's so rewarding. Um, yeah, the ability to help somebody navigate their future is hugely rewarding, and it's why we do what we do. It's why we come to work every day, and it's a privilege. This cohort of clientele, generally speaking, are eager and motivated, and that, in turn, fuels me, that motivates me, and it's inspiring. Yeah, I don't know what else to

Andy Fermo: 42:26

say. Oh, no, that's amazing. I was just nice to be able to see what it is like, you know, from that you mentioned right at the start, this is just seeing that reward. And when you see that switching from someone actually, you know, that desperation, or whatever it is, that is like, I can't do this now. I'm no longer the person that I was and etc to then going on doing these things. Now I'm gonna have a crack at it, and then, oh, actually, I've got a lot of skill. I can bring a lot of things to the table and do this right. Which leads me to, I know that we've covered on a lot of stuff, and there's a lot of things to also that we could keep on talking about there. Jill, but one other thing that that we did talk about, in regards to the work that you've been doing a fair bit more now, was the first responder piece, and working with the organizations like waypoll, where the focus is like, just say, if we put a medical retirement out of the picture, where we're actually Talking about people who are still operational, but something's happened to them, and they're using a service like, what, what insight Solutions Group is providing to get them back to operational status. You said it wasn't too different. The focus then is to go from because they still operational, they're still within the organization. They're not that. There's not transition. So what I guess I'm asking is, what's that? Is there any stigmas about it? Because, you know, they did this, course, there is, is a vocational rehab group seen as this, okay, they've done this, and are they going to jump ship, or are they, is that? Oh, am I going to see the quack type thing? What are your experiences around the space? Yeah,

Unknown: 43:57

it's a good question. I think there are some parallels with I'm thinking back to my time with ADF rehab as well. So the internal mechanism to support people in uniform, this, in this case, in the military, back into their military role. There was a massive stigma around being downgraded, make downgraded and needing a rehab program, people didn't voluntarily sign up for that. No, I think we do tend to see some of that stigma in the likes of WA Police as well, where people are potentially reluctant to own up to an injury or having difficulty with their mental health for fear of what it's going to do to their career. That's

Andy Fermo: 44:51

right with a career suicide having Yeah, but there's some

Unknown: 44:54

great internal support mechanisms there. There's a recognition around the. Very real occupational hazards that come with policing or being any frontline service. Yes, absolutely, you generally are signing up for a lot of hurt, physically and psychologically. They're putting their bodies on the line. They're putting themselves on the line every day. And that comes with consequences. There's a really good, yeah, like I say, internal support structure in place. So there's, I guess, an internal injury management or health and well being team that are aware of people that might need sick leave for work related non work related injuries. If that becomes prolonged and there's a longer recovery time frame, there's generally a level of rehabilitation support to help that person manage that period and where they can't handle that internally anymore, they actually refer to us and other external rehab providers, so they consult those services out to us. We essentially do the same thing in terms of supporting that journey for them being injured, unable to do their operational work, and helping them back into work. Oftentimes, that will involve engaging with Officer and their workplace so their OIC Officer in Charge to understand what sort of non operational duties they can do, and developing a rehab plan that supports their engagement in work, using work as the therapy. Work helps the recovery, but it's not that sort of frontline work. It's that step back, and then when they are medically fit and cleared for operational duties, it's about getting back into that, yeah.

Andy Fermo: 46:51

Oh, that's great. So what I'm hearing is that then that way, if that's the internal system within that organization, they've exhausted at that point in time, they've exhausted whatever it is when the resources internally, they're externally, outsourcing it to a provider like insight Solutions Group to then be able to work with the member to get them to that stage. And then, because you're working with the OIC of their on their progress, the idea is always to be able to get them back to operational status, but you're using other elements, like your Mongo I'm not going to be on the like a front line on the beat so type, so to speak. But then there's other roles within a station that I might be able to do in the meantime, because then it's still giving them purpose around that. Whether or not they like those roles exactly is a different question, but it's about being still within that environment and being contributing to that specific role, whatever it might look like within that organization. Boom, once they're on their Mac, you've helped them out. I'm just thinking that might be a more, more like an EP type sort of physical battle, or seeing a seeing a counselor or a psychologist a psychiatrist, to be able to get the head it doesn't mean that they're a liability. It's just like that's liability. It's just like you sorted out that's outside of the eyes of the main that the main the head shed. But then that way they know where the progress is, you're giving them some work that's still part of that organization, and then hooking them back into absolutely

Unknown: 48:17

what I have found really interesting and quite refreshing with WA Police as an agency as a whole, is their openness around men, the mental health risks with policing. And a lot of my clients will openly talk about PTSD, depression, anxiety, the impact of what they see has its consequences. And there's not shying away from seeking, acknowledging what might be going on, and then seeking support for it. And yeah, there tends to be a level of like, I say, openness and acceptance around the fact that's what's going on.

Andy Fermo: 49:01

So it's like that shift of normalizing the conversations around that, so it's not so stigmatized. And going, if I talk about this is, if I bring the subject up, that means that you're like vulnerable and your reliability. It's more about, let's just talk about what happened then, because instead of putting it, let's not talk about that subject ever again. It's a man like that was pretty heavy shit that we went through today. Let's just debunk that, debrief it, however that might look, and then put any supports in if you need any. But then let's go on for the next day's worth of operations. And that's something that the I really respect so much with that with our frontline workers, is that they're out there in it's a domestic setting, but they're going out every single day, and there's, you never know what's going to be happening in that line of work?

Unknown: 49:42

Yes, yeah, they see it all. That's for sure.

Andy Fermo: 49:44

Yeah, that's right. Cool. No worries. Just so look up. We've covered so much information here, and so just to recap, with some parting moments for otherwise, we could talk all day about this is that so would you like to be able to share with our audience? If they're in either one of the camps there, whether a military or first responder that's looking to seek some services from a vocation a group like insight solutions, what do we what would be some parting?

Unknown: 50:13

I think keeping an open mind about where your journey can take you. And I think having that attitude can hold you in good stead in terms of being able to receive the right kind of support or follow the right pathway and ask questions curious. Yeah, and there's a lot of resources and supports out there. Reach out

Andy Fermo: 50:44

absolutely now, just on this last one, which kind of so when you've got someone that might be reaching out, and they still might have this hurdle to say, Hey, I'm going to reach out, but I don't want to, I don't want to be seen like able to do what I'm going to do, but I just need to have some stuff worked on what would be like a couple of pathway or two to go about that.

Unknown: 51:06

So if they've Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out, okay, so this person, what might be going on for them? Can you rephrase the question? Okay, so

Andy Fermo: 51:15

just say someone had some stuff going on, yes, and they didn't want to sort of jeopardize their career, so to speak. But they know that something like, let's say, maybe get operational again, and no one wanted to reach out to be able to see what services are there? Obviously there's a chain of command type pathway or another one. Is there options for that person, whoever it might be, to be able to reach out. So I guess you're talking about police Yeah, or pathways that people can read you, yeah, yeah. So

Unknown: 51:48

if they are working, if they're working with the police force, we would get our referrals through the vocational rehab unit within WA Police, which is a unit within the health and welfare division. And so generally, that person needs to make themselves known to that division by being on extended sick leave or having there's an incident and they've been injured, and it's obvious that they're going to need some Return to Work Support. Okay, they can ask that division to be referred through to us, outside Solutions Group, from my understanding, it's the discretion of that internal unit, that vocational rehab unit, as to where that may go. Okay, yeah, if we're looking at defense and there's a member that is feeling like they potentially need to have a mech review, something's happened, or there's an accumulation of issues going on, and they're not feeling like they can perform their sort of active role, they would Need to go and have a medical review or a MECC review, and that tends to trigger a referral to the rehab team internally, yeah, so we, I don't do that work anymore, because I'm not employed on base anymore. The work that I do is through a dva referral. Okay, if a veteran in this case wants to reach out and work with us, then they would need to ask dva rehabilitation to be referred to Insight solutions group who work in partnership with work rehab. Okay, so

Andy Fermo: 53:38

that's the pathway. So now suppose that was the bit in closing, because I want to make sure then, that way, if any one of our audiences out there, regardless of whatever force that they're in or organization, is those pathways about how they can go about seeking the help and being in contact, and then what, from what I'm hearing, is it's that referral sort of stage, in whichever way that he just

Unknown: 54:00

Yes. If people want the anonymity, there there are options. So police, they have an EAP provider, a psychological support provider, that they can contact anonymously. They don't have to let their agency know that they're seeking that support, and they also don't have to pay for that service. That's often a benefit with most employers nowadays is there is that employee assistance program, so EAP support available with with us when it comes to working with veterans, the veteran will need to reach out to dva and actually seek a referral to us.

Andy Fermo: 54:46

That's the self referral.

Unknown: 54:48

If somebody reaches out to me directly, that's the pathway that I set them on. So they're welcome to reach out directly, but ultimately, then there's the process then engage with Steve. Yay, to do that.

Andy Fermo: 55:01

Great. Thank you so much, and I should have been a little bit more clearly with that, yeah, to our audience. So thank you so much for coming on the show today and being able to share your wealth of knowledge, especially around the psycho piece, because I know that's really something that's that's jam, and to be able to share that with how what the expectations are if you're going to be entering into the program, or the work that you may need to do before you enter into that program, through the psychosocial activities is so important. So thank you so much. Jill,

Unknown: 55:32

thanks Andy, and thank you for the work that you're doing and creating these opportunities like this. It's really wonderful the impact that you're having on the community. So thank you.

Andy Fermo: 55:43

Thanks, mate, bye.

Claire Fermo: 55:47

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