the GIFT of DIFFERENCE: UNCORKED with JAMIE REABURN

Have you ever felt like you were marching to the beat of your own drum, only to realize that your rhythm is what makes the melody of life so much richer? This UNCORK conversation will be sweet and sacred music for those who have felt different, misunderstood, or out of sync with the world around them. It's a celebration of the moment when the puzzle pieces start to fit, when the fog lifts, and when you finally see your unique qualities as gifts, not burdens. 

Whether you're living with autism, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about the diverse spectrum of human experience, this space is for you. Take a deep breath, open your heart, and join us as we unwrap the gift for yourself and others when you finally understand why you're different.

This UNCORK conversation features Jamie Reaburn, a 43-year-old woman who was recently diagnosed with autism. She's a mother, a wife, a dog mom, an amateur boxer, a gardening enthusiast, and a high school English department head and teacher. Her unique perspective and experiences make this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding autism. 

Listen in as we explore the experience of being different and applaud the realization that being unique is something to be celebrated. Jamie and I chat about the importance of self-advocacy and the therapeutic nature of stimming. The episode encourages listeners to have open and honest conversations about autism and to be more understanding and accepting of individuals with autism. Jamie discusses how her autism diagnosis has been a gift to her and an opportunity to have conversations, be kind to herself and others, and gain a new perspective. She emphasizes the importance of getting curious instead of critical and finding joy in the midst of struggles. Jamie also shares how her diagnosis has impacted her parenting, allowing her to self-monitor and be more understanding of her own needs. She encourages parents to be curious about their own feelings and to focus on the root of their child's behaviour as they help them navigate the world within them and around them.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
& Author of the UNCOMMODiFiED Book
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/ 

PRODUCERS: 
Kris MacQueen & Alyne Gagne
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.com

Transcript

the GIFT of DIFFERENCE: UNCORKED with JAMIE REABURN

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

[00:00:00] There is a gift for yourself and others when you finally understand why you're different. Have you ever felt like you were marching to the beat of your own drum only to realize that your rhythm, the rhythm you were making, is what makes the melody of life so much richer for you and others? This podcast episode will be a sweet and maybe even a sacred music.

For those who feel different, misunderstood, or out of sync with the world around them. And a celebration of the moment when the puzzle pieces start to fit together in our lives, when the fog lifts, and when we finally see the unique qualities that we have as gifts, not as burdens that we need to bear.

Whether you're living with autism, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about the diverse spectrum of human experience, this space will On this podcast episode is for you together. We're going to uncover the magic of realizing that being different, being unique, being unusual, maybe is not just okay.

[00:01:00] It's something to be celebrated. So take a deep breath, open your heart and join us as we unwrap the gift of finally understanding why you're different. Hey, my friends, welcome back to the Uncommodified Podcast and to another UNCORK conversation, always my favorite conversation. My guest today is Jamie Reaburn.

Jamie,

welcome to the show.

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Uh, it's going to be a lot of fun. And so I, how I met Jamie was, um, I actually, Brad, Jamie's, partner came to an event that we did, a leadership event, and we got talking and, and he goes, you need to meet wife. You need to meet Jamie. And I'm like, okay. I mean, Brad's a Jamie fan, Jamie, do you know this, right?

Brad is a Jamie fan. And so I'm like, okay, I'll meet Jamie. And then we had a great conversation on the phone and I was absolutely inspired and intrigued by the conversation. And I said, hey, that's a conversation I want my listeners to be able to listen into. So a little bit of an introduction, then we'll have a, drink together and we'll get started.

So Jamie is a 43 year old recently diagnosed [00:02:00] autistic woman. She's a mother, she's a wife, she's a dog mom. She is an amateur boxer, which is a whole nother story. We'll talk about that. So I hope it doesn't get out of control today. Who knows? She's a gardening enthusiast and she's a high school English department head and teacher.

As a child, Jamie realized that she thought about the world in different ways than most people or peers and consequently she learned to mask that difference and the different aspect of her personality to fit in. So that she could be acceptable and fit in. But now as an adult, understanding now with a level 1 autism diagnosis, she understands that her quiet nature and the anxiety that she feels in social settings, the intense special interest she has, the stimming, and the lack of understanding of emotions at times, hers and others, are all ways autism shows up in her life.

Since her diagnosis, she's been on a journey to understand, learn, grow, and embrace more aspects of her personality, understanding that they're [00:03:00] not problematic, they're just different. And Jamie's also passionate about making sure that we're going to have open, honest conversations that she believes will help Get through some of the, thing that happens on the media side as what we hear in the media about autism and they're trying to do a better job, but there's still a lot to be learned about autism, particularly as it presents in women.

And so this is going to be an inspirational conversation. Do me a favor. If you're starting to listen to this conversation. And you recognize there's somebody in your life that needs to listen to it. Make sure you get this podcast to them, or listen to it with them, so that we can explore and discover this extremely important topic together.

But, Jamie, as I told you, I always like to kick off every conversation with, uh, with a drink. And so, what are you drinking tonight, Jamie?

Well, I have a Lola cab front cab stove blend. Um, Brad and I went on our first and well, really only vacation we've been on, um, together as a couple to, uh, Peely. And, uh, so that, but I'm also giving you the [00:04:00] true autistic experience in that I have sparkling water as well, because many of us like to have two different beverages on the go at any given time.

Two drinks on the go. Well, and I said to Jamie, you know, I don't, I've been apt to have two beverages on the go as well. Sometimes two alcoholic beverages, but not tonight. I actually have a Riesling. I don't drink a lot of white wine, but I have this Riesling, which I really enjoy. It's from Niagara.

It's from a winery called Megalomaniac. I've never know if you've ever heard of it. Megalomaniac is a really interesting winery. If you're in, uh, Canada in the Niagara region, you ought to go there. The founder of it, John Howard, actually, I've, I know John and John was very kind a number of years ago to do a big event for a charity that I was And John did this amazing fundraising dinner at his house, a private party, and John's a great guy.

And so I'm going to celebrate John Howard and megalomaniac, and I'm going to celebrate you, Jamie. Cheers. 

Cheers. 

Oh, very good. So, so Jamie, let's just talk about [00:05:00] your journey into this. So you're growing up with this unique difference that you're trying to figure out all of your life. 

Can I, I'm interested to know, first of all, in your journey, what causes you to start saying, Hey, I need to understand this at a different level.

This isn't just a quirk. This isn't just a problem. There might be something going on here. How does your journey take you to a place where you start exploring what's going on and how do I

understand it better?

Uh, actually, it was a family member of mine that got diagnosed first. And, uh, he and I are really, really similar humans. And, uh, so I started thinking about, hmm, maybe there is something to this. as a potential explanation for why certain things don't quite make sense to me sometimes. And, um, when I started boxing a couple years ago, One of the comments my coach made to me was that I'm a really rigid thinker.

And Brad said that to me before, [00:06:00] but sometimes when your partner tells you something, you don't always listen. But then hearing it, from my boxing coach was an interesting experience because in boxing, you have to be unpredictable because you want to outsmart your opponent. And. And for him, he was like, you're, you're stuck in a pattern and you're going to lose because your opponent's going to figure out your pattern.

And then I realized a lot of things in my life are very patterned. And so, so I decided that because I'm on a huge self discovery journey anyway, and I have been probably since my thirties that maybe it was worthwhile looking into. And, um, sure enough, there it was level one, autism.

Okay. So you have to forgive my ignorance of this subject matter in the sense that, and I did deliberately chose not to do any research in advance because I didn't want to bring a preconceived notion to the conversation. I want to experience the conversation just hearing your journey. So [00:07:00] who did you go to that could help make that diagnosis?

Is that a, is that going through your family doctor, then there's a specialist and you go through some testing or

how does that journey look? 

Uh, so I actually just researched it myself, and I looked up, uh, psychologists in the Waterloo region, got myself on a couple waitlists, and one of them reached out to me and said, Hey, we are looking for women, Especially, in their 30s and 40s, who potentially would never be diagnosed. And for me as a level 1 autistic human, what that means is I have fairly low support needs.

in comparison to level three, which are people who maybe are non verbal or use other means of communication. and where my support needs show up tend to be in social settings where I'm anxious or I'm unsure of how to act in any given moment. and so for me, then I like, I sit back and [00:08:00] watch a lot and then I figure out what are people doing in that moment.

And then maybe. Dip my toe in or maybe not. Maybe I'll just stay on the outskirts, for the whole time but it was really just reaching out and uh, they were they're looking for Women, especially because it's a very under diagnosed. group

Really? Any idea why that is? I mean, that's

interesting I

I think it's stereotypes

Okay, interesting. Yeah. 

So the stereotype of autism is like a white boy that doesn't make eye contact and who maybe does gestures that seem awkward or is very intensely focused on like trains are the stereotypical. thing that people say that autistic people have. But what is different for me is like, I can make eye contact.

I don't always enjoy it.

But I can do it, and I force myself to do it regularly. And so in those situations, I think that we [00:09:00] typically see that boys present more outwardly. And when I went to the doctor, through the diagnostic process. One of the things my doctor said was that women tend to internalize whereas men tend to externalize.

And so for me, like my whole life, I've been anxious about lots of different situations. And so I've done lots of therapy around situations like that. But what ended up really showing is that the anxiety is really related to the autism.

Interesting. Now, you get this Level I Diagnosis. Are you? Are you

immediately relieved? Are you what? Like, what do you feel like? What are you feeling? Are you like, Oh, this now I understand. Now I understand

why, like, how do you feel? 

Oh, yeah, I feel validated. I feel now that there's situations where I can ask for what I need. So if I'm sitting in a staff meeting, for example, which is really uncomfortable for me, or at a parent teacher night, which is [00:10:00] ridiculously uncomfortable for me, because, that's like an autistic nightmare.

You don't know who's coming through the door. You don't know what they're going to say. You have to be on the ball, like really on top of it. Thankfully at my school we do it in a different way than other schools. In other schools I've been sitting in a gym with like all my other colleagues and just people everywhere and from a sensory side it's super loud and I have a really quiet voice and then I'm really uptight about that.

So now I can Ask more for what I need and not feel guilty about needing those accommodations. 

Okay, so you can now self advocate in a different way because you have a different way of articulating or explaining the unique qualities that you had that you weren't able to sort of say, well, this is how I would describe it, and therefore, now it's an easier

conversation in some way. 

yeah, absolutely. And I find that I'm way more self compassionate [00:11:00] because My social battery drains super quickly. And, uh, so on a Friday night, I often fall asleep on the couch at like 7 o'clock at night. And I used to feel so guilty about that because, like, you know, I was bailing on my family. But now I'm like, okay, I guess that's what I need.

Or, there'll be times when people invite, will invite me out somewhere and I'll just say, no, thanks. I'm not going. There's a joke on staff that I never go to any social anything with my colleagues. And for a long time, a lot of people thought it was very standoffish and that I just didn't want to go or whatever.

And now I can say, no, no, it's just not my scene and I need to recharge my batteries and that's okay.

Wow. That's interesting because, you know, for me, you talk about that social anxiety. when people meet me now, they would never realize that I grew up with a lot of social anxiety. In fact, I never went to a public event in all of my schooling, including up to high school.

I never went to a [00:12:00] dance. I never went to a public event. I never went to my graduation. Uh, Every time we had to public speak, I always took off school or I faked I was sick. I never did any of these things. And so what I do today is actually very disconnected actually to, sort of how I saw myself for a long time.

Cause I, you know, I dealt with some of these social anxiety things. I had a speech impediment when I was a child, which sort of was really a difficult experience for me. But I think, you You know, as you describe it, I think it's, it's an interesting thing when you talk about when you're able to figure out something and be able to have some more self compassion so that you can understand and be more careful with yourself.

I mean, what a tremendous gift that you can give

yourself in that process. 

Oh, it's been so good for my mental health to be able to say, Hey, you know what? I really would love to, but I need to prioritize my time at home right now. And it's actually been really good for my marriage because Brad's a lot more outgoing [00:13:00] than I am. And he likes to get up and go, but now I can say, Hey, I really need to recharge my batteries first.

right, 

And so we, it gives us more language to communicate better with.

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting because I think, and I've had this discussion with some other people that I've journeyed with over the years who are, maybe have, a, challenge in their life that you don't see when you first talk to them. Hey, there goes your dog. 

There she 

is. 

on.

What, what's your dog's name?

Her name's Finny. She's named after, uh, Finnegan from Casey and Finnegan 

my gosh. Okay. Oh, yeah. Casey and Finnegan. Okay. Well, Finnegan's going to get in the podcast, which is perfect. Um, so when you journey with people, I think the challenge is, is particularly when they're dealing with struggles that we don't see or they don't present outside. It's so hard.

Not only for them to have compassion, but for others, because, you know, if you had a, something we could see physically, you know, even if it was a temporary thing where you broke your arm, we all wouldn't understand, oh, [00:14:00] she can't do that because of this. And so we would become much more accepting of the limitations or the things that we see.

But because we can't see it, it's easy to get a little bit judgy and sort of say, well, well, this must mean this, which has got to be. Really difficult to deal with, for the number

of years that you dealt with that. 

Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh, like there are lots of times where people would say things to me or they would make judgments about me and I would just be like, I don't understand why they would say something like that. Cause like, saying things like that doesn't compute to me anyway, which, as, you know, it probably is the autism that makes me feel that way.

But I, you know, sitting in there, in those situations going, Huh, okay, I guess, like. Yeah.

Yeah. 

the, you know, the challenges that you obviously have encountered through your life. The social anxiety that all of the things you're talking about, and [00:15:00] yet you choose a path towards teaching. You obviously are extremely bright.

You're extremely, well educated. you're, I think you not only teach English, but I think you're the, you're the department head of the English at your high school. So, how do you find yourself attracted to teaching? into an environment that seems so counterintuitive to the very struggle that you're bearing.

Like, how does that

happen, Jamie?

okay, so I actually spent a lot of time thinking about that because like I predicted you would ask a question along that line and so one of the Typical things about me and my experience with autism and I of course want to make sure that everybody knows that everybody's experience with autism Is different and that's I think one of the stereotypes that we have to break is that everybody who's autistic has the same experience?

Because we don't so For me, well, I went to school for so long, right? You went to elementary school, high school, university, teachers college. Uh, my dad [00:16:00] is also in education. My grandfather was in education. So one of the interesting pieces for me is that I knew the rules of school. And so I didn't have to learn the rules.

I just had to learn how to be a teacher, but I had to, you know, Two very close role models in my life who, uh, talked teacher talk with me as soon as they knew I was going into that talk teacher talk with me all the time. And so, because I was in the atmosphere, I had some expectations around what to know that was going to happen.

So like 75 minutes, it's a predictable schedule, which works well for me. I was in charge or I am in charge of planning the lessons. So I have control over those. Students are wild cards, sometimes. And I actually kind of enjoy that. I love when a student will say something that I didn't think of. Um, but lots of times I [00:17:00] can, I get the chance to control a situation, push kids to think a certain way, and then know that I'm Miss Reaburn.

And so I know the rules of being Miss Reaburn. And when I'm there, I'm wearing a mask while I'm there, so that can be very challenging, and that is very energy draining, um, and hence why, like, I box three times a week, and I work out a lot, I run, things like that, to keep my energy levels up, but because it was a familiar environment with familiar, expectations, the one thing that's tricky right now about education that I'm finding challenging.

is that, post pandemic, people are very emotional and students, staff, just generally. And that I find a bit more challenging because it's harder to predict how people might act. Because most of the time, having done this for a long time now, I can predict how kids are going to act, or respond or [00:18:00] whatever.

Alright. But, with a bit more of an emotional side, which tends to be, um, more challenging for me. That has been something I've had to really adapt to, which has been really not the easiest thing 

no. no. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of complexity. I mean, for everybody's changing in these environments, but particularly as you approach your life and you know, you talked

about that rigidity 

that you tend to have. and then you get in an environment where there's just more elasticity in the way that people interact and yeah, that's a huge challenge for sure.

So, so here's a question. So you, you know, you're, you're at this moment in your life, you're figuring this out. One of the terms that you had communicated to me was this term stimming. 

Yeah. 

for myself or others who may not really understand that, what does that word mean?

does the stimming manifest in every autistic person the same or different? And does that

manifest itself? 

Oh, okay. So, it's best explained by telling you a [00:19:00] story. And bear with me. I'm an English teacher. I like stories.

Oh, stories are

good. I like stories. 

So, at the school I was at previous to the one I'm at now, one of my colleagues, made an observation about me, um, which I found hurtful at the time. And his comment was, don't ever sit near Jamie in a staff meeting because she can't sit still.

Hmm. Hmm. 

this has been true my whole life. I'm not very good at sitting still. depending on how I'm feeling, you'll often see, like, I'm a hand talker. I move around a lot as I'm sitting here. I'm on a swivelly chair, so I've been swiveling. Um, I often have something in my hands, like when I was at school.

And in class, when you were supposed to sit still and not move around a lot in your desk, I often had pens or something, erasers, things like that, in my hand that I was moving around. And, in my purse I carry, like, it's called a wacky track. [00:20:00] And, uh, it, like, is a little clicky thing that, just moves in different shapes and whatever. Um, so really it's just kind of unexplained movement that, actually helps kind of calm me. So if I have to sit really still, then my anxiety takes over. whereas then I get in my brain and then instead of letting the energy flow through my body, the energy flows in my brain and then we have more challenges.

Yeah. 

I like to bounce my foot. I like to, if I'm wearing a bracelet, like, so I'm moving a 

Okay, so stimming is, an outward, um, sort of manifestation that, if I understand correctly, it, it's an outward manifestation of autism, but it also seems that it, it's also therapeutic in nature somehow. So, it's a manifestation that we would see, but it's also somehow therapeutic for the person as you enter into this behavior.[00:21:00] 

It actually brings some soothing mechanism, is,

am I getting that right?

yeah, that's like the best explanation I've ever 

heard. 

ha. That's, that's really fascinating though, because, you know, I think the interesting thing that, that I'm hearing you say. And I think this maybe is a reaction. So when we see somebody doing, particularly a child, I think, or, you know, when we see a person doing something that we maybe find annoying, or we don't understand why they're doing them, our immediate response, I think, is to shut it down and say, stop that, don't do it.

But what you're telling me is that actually that could be really detrimental because that behavior is actually soothing to the child. It's creating a sense of security a self regulating or management technique. And if I'm actually sort of saying, stop that, don't do that, that, that makes me uncomfortable.

That's not acceptable in this socialist experience. I'm actually taking away the mechanism or encouraging the person to stop the mechanism. That's actually [00:22:00] therapeutic to them in the moment. If I'm

tracking with you.

hundred percent. A hundred percent. Like, there are times where I don't even actually realize that I'm doing something. So, I, like, in staff meetings, I've tried to find ways that are more acceptable, or like, I play with my hair a lot, as one of my stims. I try not to click a pen, but I, I, I play with a pen in my hand.

And just, like, little things like that. might be annoying to somebody else, they're awesome for me. Well,

I don't, so I don't, I don't have that. I don't do that thing. So, again, if you're listening in, maybe just you don't know anything about autism, you don't have anybody in your life that has autism, you know, just think about what this conversation means for you because you're going to encounter more people in society that are going to have this diagnosis and understanding of their identity and who they are.

If you have somebody in your life that has autism, you are probably already know a lot of this stuff. But [00:23:00] the one thing I just want to encourage you as we talk is, again, there's Let's be respectful of the behavior that we see coming from somebody else because it actually might be their therapeutic modality, their, their, their self therapy and that our uncomfortability with it could actually be quite detrimental to them.

And I think that's just a really kind encouragement that I'm hearing. And I definitely I'm going to be encouraged to think more about that as I encounter people when I see something that they're doing which seems awkward to me or socially awkward. Maybe part of that is, is that they're soothing themselves and trying to take away their own anxiety and I need to be careful and I need to be conscious of that in a, in a more, proactive way.

So that's a really great encouragement, Jamie. I really like that. That's very, very fascinating. So, so let me ask you, as you sort of go on this journey, what are you learning about yourself? What are you learning about [00:24:00] others? I mean, I know when I talked to you about this, I suggested that potentially maybe this is a gift, maybe it's grief, and you immediately said, No, I know it's not, I don't see the grief part of this.

So, how is this a gift to you? Understanding a little bit more about the complexity of how you're made up. The unique complexity. How has this been a benefit and a gift to you to understand, and how do you see this as a gift that you can give

others? 

that's a really great question. Um, for me, I think it's a gift because I think all information is good information. And, so having that That new piece of information then gives me more opportunity to have conversations, like this one. 

Yeah. 

Um, it gives me the opportunity to be kind to myself, to be kind to others, um, to recognize that maybe something that I am unsure of what's happening about.

[00:25:00] is something that my brain just doesn't actually compute in that way. Um, I'm a super high achiever, like type A, that kind of human, and so those have been times where I've been really frustrated with myself, is that, I don't know, I'd I think to myself, Jamie, you should know this, like, you're a smart girl, you should know this.

And now I'm like, okay, I don't, I don't use that language anymore. It's like, okay, what's going on here? And then I try to get curious rather than get judgy. And I think that's been a really helpful change for me because I have this just new information that helps me see from a different perspective that I didn't have before.

Wow. You know, and I, as you say that, I mean, I'm just those two words are interesting when I hearing you say to me, you know, get

curious, don't get critical. And 

there's this, first of all, I think that's a gift in and of itself to ourselves. I think all of us, regardless of how we see ourselves, could use a dose, a healthy dose of more curiosity, kind [00:26:00] curiosity towards our quirks and As opposed to this condemnation and criticism of the things that we might find a little bit awkward about ourselves at times, whether or not we have autism or not.

And then again, the kindness that we can express to other people along the way, I mean, it, that truly is a gift. And now, even as you say that, I have a better appreciation and understanding. When I asked you the question, you know, Is there any grief in this? You were very adamant. No, actually, this has really been a gift.

I can see I'm hearing you describe that gift and unwrap that in the conversation. And that is really, powerful to me. Now, you're a mom, your dog mom, of course, but you're a mom. So how does this impact the way you parent? How does it impact relationships in your life?

I'm interested to know that. 

That's a really good question. So It's given me the chance to self monitor. So monitoring my energy levels, but [00:27:00] also monitoring if, like from a sensory side. So for me, I'm really sensitive to sound. So things like kids screaming, uh, and my kids are older, so they don't really do that anymore.

but things like, you know, You know, if I had known that I had autism when my kids were colicky babies, um, I also get touched out. And so, um, it's not as big of a deal now, but when my kids were babies, they were very attached and very stuck to me. And it would really wear me out and then I would get irritable and I was not pleasant to be around.

So had I known something like that, I think you It gives me the chance to check in with myself and be like, okay, Do I have the mental capacity right now to take on whatever is happening in my house? 

That is interesting. 

I think, too, we have a lot of normalizing conversations around neurodivergence in our house. And, honestly, we talk about, like, all brains are great brains, you know? I think, [00:28:00] Using kind words to ourselves, but also talking about, like, our emotional bandwidth. So it's really helped me from a mental health side, because I have three daughters, and they're pre teens and teens, and, uh, I want to give them kind of those experiences that allow them to be kind to themselves, because I think the world tells them not to be kind to themselves, unfortunately.

Yeah, there's absolute truth in that. And I get the sense as you're talking that I would imagine that there must be over time, and again, if I'm wrong in this assumption, please correct me. But I would assume that when you're struggling with something and you just don't really understand what it is, i. e.

even what you said about your kids, you know, when your kids are young and they're colic and they're screaming and it's driving you to a place you don't want to be, or you're getting weary from touch. I would imagine there's a certain amount of guilt 

and potentially some shame that comes into this because you're sort of [00:29:00] saying, well, I shouldn't be this way, or this isn't right.

Or, you know, we might even use a word like this isn't normal. There's something wrong with me. I imagine that there has to be guilt and shame attached in there. And is, is part of the gift in here, the ability to move beyond that guilt and shame as you contextualize the, your behavior

and your needs.

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Like, uh, in my thirties I was full of guilt and shame. Um, constantly. Especially because I was exhausted. I was a full time working mom. and, uh, it was really hard. And, like, I don't think you can know how hard it is to be a parent and be a full time employee until you go through it.

I don't think anybody can prep you for that. And then I think, not knowing that I was autistic on top of that, added a whole different layer that I think really hurt my [00:30:00] mental health and I think in my 40s now with the diagnosis, with doing lots of therapy, with having a really awesome husband, who's, I call him my emotional support husband. 

Mm 

But with having all of those like pieces now, it really has helped me to not feel that shame and guilt, or if I've, like, if I take my temperature and notice that some of those thoughts are creeping in, that I can notice them and then be like, whoa, hold up, why do I feel that way? And then re evaluate the situation.

Not perfect at it, by any means, 

No, of course not. But again, you can see the gift in it. So the gift is you have a better understanding of who you are and the complexity of how your, your, your body works, your mind works. You all of a sudden now You start to shed this guilt, you start shed shame, which are soul crushing, impressively evil forces, actually.

[00:31:00] These are impressively evil forces that work on all of us at some level. But you can see how this is at work, and again, I, you know, I think about the stigmatization that goes with autism and stuff, and the uncomfortability that it creates for parents, maybe when they're in a social setting or others as they observe behavior, and then we become, maybe, you know, I don't think on purpose, maybe unwittingly, we become part of the shame and guilt machine That works on other people and, and again, I just, if you're listening in, I always say you're listening in for a reason.

I don't know why you're listening in. And to be honest, I don't even know what this conversation totally means for me right now. I always believe that sometimes I have conversations that I believe I totally understand why I'm having them. Jamie, and there's other conversations that I have that I think in some ways are like preparatory for me.

Meaning they come into my life because the universe knows that a certain subset of experiences is going to find [00:32:00] me and that I need certain tools or equipping. And I feel like every once in a while, the universe gives me some equipping in advance. It gives me some, teaching and understanding.

And I'm, I'm really having this really revelation about how, Unwittingly and unknowingly at times, I'm probably part of projecting certain guilt and shame on people when they're behaving in a way that I believe is socially unacceptable. And so, I'm really seeing that and, and Not only is this a gift to you, this conversation is a gift to me and this conversation is going to be a gift to others.

So when you think of this, it's like this replicating gift that's coming out of this experience that you're having and this revelation that you're having about yourself. So let me ask you, what's the one thing, so if you could only give one piece of advice, so let's sort of look at different target audiences for a second.

So, If you could only give one piece of advice to someone like yourself, so, you know, a woman who's had [00:33:00] this kind of experience in her life and from what you're seeing, and you can only give them one piece of advice at this moment in their life. And let's say they're struggling and they're not sure what they're struggling with.

What's the one thing you'd want to tell them today?

Sure. I think I would tell them What would I have needed to hear in that moment?

I think I would have told them that they are still amazing in who they are. What other people say, the impressions that people have. I, think really thinking about how does our internal monologue sound.

And I think like maybe suggesting to people to pay attention to the voice that's happening in here, because I think like my voice was awful. 

Hmm. 

It really was. and I think that maybe listening to what you're saying to yourself in the moment [00:34:00] is really an important starting point. and remembering like, We all have gifts inside of us, but looking for something that brings you that bit of joy, when I think about those moments where I'm even still not feeling great about myself is finding something that does bring you that joy.

So go to the gym, that's my, that's my thing, 

Punch some Punch somebody in the face.

you know what, it's so cathartic.

Uh, how does it, can I, I got to ask a question though. Is it as cathartic to be punched as it is to punch?

Ooh. well, I like to try and have really good defense. So, getting punched but blocking the punch. that 

That's the key. Okay. The block is the key. Okay. So really great advice. So now I'm going to switch the narrative for a second here. You like narrative. You're an English 

teacher. We're gonna do narrative. We're gonna switch out the main characters of the story for a second.

So [00:35:00] now you're giving advice to a parent of a child 

who's exhibiting some behavior that seems. It's neurodivergent, but also, at times, seems maybe socially difficult or awkward for them, the child, and for them to deal with. Now you're going to give them some advice. Now you're going to speak to them as a parent. What would your advice be to them as a parent, based on your experience?

I think. In those moments where you feel like your child is being socially unacceptable, I think asking yourself, what's at the root of that? is it that you're worried that other people are going to perceive your child as something? Is it there's some shame inside of you? I think it's getting curious about what you're feeling and where that, that feeling is coming from.

Wow, that is, that is really good advice and, and the one thing you said I think is, I think about it even with my own children when they were young. [00:36:00] You know, my daughter's 34 now, my son's 31, but I can think of times particular with my daughter because she had temper tantrums and they were often public.

And I think of the embarrassment and the shame that I felt as a parent. And, and I was, I have to admit to myself this, I don't like to admit to it, but what manifested for me at that time actually was anger. 

Mm 

So, I became overly angry, I became, I don't, I didn't process those experiences, but, It was as much my child's behavior as how I believe people would perceive me. And I think as a, as a man, now going to be 60, so this is a long time ago, you know, this is 30 something years ago, in public settings, I think that I had this social understanding that I needed, to show I was a man, I had to take control of this child. 

Mm hmm. 

then came in being [00:37:00] controlling in a physical way to my daughter in those circumstances.

And I'm not proud of that, but I recognize that that was my coping mechanism because I was feeling shame and guilt about her behavior. And I felt people were looking at me and I was trying to show I was in control when I wasn't in

control.

hmm. I think sometimes people perceive control as actively doing something, and I think in moments where, you know, maybe kids are having temper tantrum, 

Yeah. 

They're in fight or flight. They can't really control it by then. 

So, like, for me, I just try to just kind of sit there and wait. And it maybe appears that, that I'm not doing anything, but I don't think there is anything that I can do in that moment other than let them 

Yeah. 

with whatever they're dealing with.

Yeah. Listen, I'm not proud of some of the ways that I parented my kids. And you know, I'm very thankful that they love me still and that they've turned out to be well [00:38:00] adjusted adults. But, you know, it wasn't At times, because of any great parenting I did, that's for sure. So, you know, we all live with our own sense of

shame and guilt at times. And, uh, I got my own baggage when it comes to this. But that's another therapy session. That's another discussion. Jamie, this is a really, really wonderful conversation. I know you know this about Brad. I mean, I don't know you guys at all, really. I mean, I met Brad in this circumstance, when we came to this event we did.

Had some great interactions with him. You know, intuitively, you get a sense that you have some connection or attraction to a person where you go, man, there's something about this person. I had that sense with Brad. you already know that he's your, is your biggest fan. You know that, right? You already know that.

But, you know, I just want to, say something which was very interesting to me. So I went up to him after we had this conversation. and there were some things that he said that just really intrigued me about who he was. And, you know, I'm always thinking if I find somebody I'm interested in, hey, I'm going to have them on my podcast because I want to talk to them.

So I said to [00:39:00] Brad, hey Brad, really, I would love to have you come on the podcast. And he immediately looked at me and said, actually. You need to meet my wife because that's who you want to have on your podcast. And I will tell you the way he spoke about you, obviously the deep, affection he has for you, the deep, appreciation, the sense of being proud of you as a human, as a person.

It was so, um, palpable is the only word that I can say. It was like man, like Brad is your biggest fan and cheerleader. Right. And so. I'm gonna go public on Brad's behalf. So those of you who might know Brad and you might, you might know Jamie. I mean, you already know this about Brad, but I mean, what amazing gift to have a cheerleader in your corner.

Like Brad.

Yeah, I'm ridiculously lucky. You're, you're absolutely right. and uh, we actually went to high school together. [00:40:00] And so, yeah, so he had a crush on me in high school and I had no idea. He was my brother's friend. So, by the time we started dating, he'd had like a 22 year crush on me or something silly.

Okay. Now we're here. We should be airing this episode around Valentine's Day. Look at that. That is awesome. Well, you know what? I think, uh, I think the feeling's mutual across the other table. I mean, I think we, you both have, found obviously companionship, but also a camaraderie being in each other's corner, no pun intended with the boxing, but being in each other's corner in this fight that you're contending for for the value of your uniqueness.

And, and I just think it's a beautiful story, and Jamie, I, I really appreciate you having it with me. Uh, again, if you're listening in, you're listening for a reason, and if you have somebody in your life that you have a question, you know, maybe the behavior I'm seeing potentially, maybe it is autism, maybe it's something else, you know, [00:41:00] be kind to yourself along the way in them, and also maybe invite them into a process of getting some help to understand and maybe to get diagnosed so that they can have a context in which to grid the behavior as opposed to this sort of Punishing cruelty of trying to manage that behavior, but understanding it more effectively than that.

That is, I think, a big part of this. And you know, Jamie, I usually ask people at the end of my podcast this question. But I want to approach it differently. I often will say to people, you know, when you go into a room and you're bringing your most uncommodified, unique self, what does that look like? I feel like I want to have a little different wrap up, which is, you obviously bring to any given moment the uniqueness of who you are, this unique gift that you have, this unique lens that you look at the world through.

So my question to you is, is that when you're in a room and you're You're bringing out the best in somebody else. You're bringing out the best in one of your students. Let's say you're in class and you're trying [00:42:00] to bring the best out in one of your students. You're trying to call something out of them because you see it.

 What does that look like? And, How does that feel? Because I imagine that's part of the gift of being a teacher. You, you have to sort of identify and call these things forward, but what does that look like to you

when I describe it that way? 

Um, it's me asking a lot of questions, um, and uh, one of the things that sometimes students run into with me is that they're looking for a quick answer, and I don't think learning is that. I think the really good learning takes time. And takes thoughtful consideration, experiments, that kind of thing, mistakes.

And so in those moments, it's having a really deep conversation. deep and meaningful conversation, one on one with a student, and really asking them to examine their thinking, examining, like, maybe some preconceived notions, asking them why, and getting them to, [00:43:00] to tell me those kinds of ideas. those are the magic moments for me, because I think That there's lots of times where life moves so quickly that people don't slow down.

And school's super busy, we have 30 students in a class and that kind of thing, but when you can have those little tiny moments where you really get a student to conceptualize, ponder, think deeply, that's the magic to me.

That is the magic, and I'll go back to something I said when we began, and I'll end with this. There's magic in what Jamie just said, this magic opportunity that we have. And magic is both wonderful, but it's also mysterious, and it's powerful. There is, you know, this idea of magic, which is really an interesting term.

And when we started the conversation, I suggested that there's some magic in realizing that That being different isn't just okay, it isn't just [00:44:00] acceptable, it's actually something to be celebrated. And so the magic is in calling something out of others, but the magic is also being kind enough to understand that the difference that we exude is actually the most powerful magic that we can bring to the world around us.

And so my encouragement to you as you finish up this podcast and as you, go your way after listening to it, is what is releasing that kind of magic in your world look like? The magic of releasing your uniqueness and identifying the uniqueness of others and calling it out. That would be a gift in and of itself.

Thanks for listening in. Have a great day. Cheers. [00:45:00]