Managing & Mitigating RISK: UNCORKED with STEVE APPENFELDER

RIDDLE ME THIS: What have I paid for - for 43 years and never used? And why am I delighted, I never had to. The answer … INSURANCE

In this UNCORK Conversation, Steve Appenfelder (President at Adkisson Insurance Agency, my amazing friend, and a wonderful human) and I delve into the deep, dark, and potentially dangerous insurance world. Steve shares his journey from being an underwriter to owning his own insurance agency and provides insights into the complexities of commercial insurance. He emphasizes the significance of building relationships and setting realistic expectations with clients. He also stresses the need for agents and individuals to ask better questions of each other to ensure that everyone is buying the insurance coverage they truly need.

Grab a drink and prepare to learn about an industry that, for most of us, is shrouded in mystery and sometimes even a bit of madness.


Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/

PRODUCERS: Kris MacQueen & Alyne Gagne
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.com

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

[00:00:00] Hey, my friends, welcome back to the Uncommodified Podcast and another Uncork conversation. Now, this conversation is going to be a little bit different. I know they're all a little bit different. This is going to be even more different than usual. It's going to be amazing. And it is going to be empowered and fueled by mead and moonshine.

We'll talk about that later. Now here's a riddle. Or a factoid I want to start this conversation with. I have paid for something for 43 years. I know some of you aren't even 43 years old, but I have paid for something for 43 years and never used it. And my guest could have been the one selling it to me since that time.

Can you imagine? I paid for something for 43 years and never used it. And actually, I am happy and delighted. I never had to. Now, my guest tonight on the show is Steve Appenfelder. Steve, welcome to the show.

Thank [00:01:00] you.

Awesome. Now, Steve is a great friend of mine from the wonderful state of Kentucky. And we've connected over a number of years and we connect on a regular basis.

And Steve is in a profession that is an ancient profession, but not the one you're thinking about. An important profession, but maybe not the one you're thinking about. Steve, what's your profession?

Uh, well, I have the pleasure of selling insurance products.

That is right. favorite person in your world is your insurance salesperson. You know, so tonight we're going to braille into and explore the, the underworld of underwriting. We're going to get under the belly of this thing called insurance.

We're going to have a fun conversation about the thing that most of us, all of us, probably have. Maybe never used, maybe we used, we don't know, but we're going to talk about that. But of course, before we do that, it's an encore conversation. Steve, we're going to crack open a drink. You've got something quite interesting.

What do you got tonight?

I do. So, uh, one of my favorite clients, [00:02:00] uh, makes a little moonshine. This is their apple pie version. Uh, so it's maybe a little, little early for, uh, for the apple pie, but, uh, great for a conversation like insurance.

Excellent. Very good. So you got to love that kind of client. They could have a lot of risk, you know, that all the all peril policy could be quite strong on that one. All right. And I've got something interesting too. My daughter and her fiance gave me for my birthday. They gave me a bottle of reserve cast collection mead and it's actually called old smoky.

This mead is finished off in Kentucky bourbon barrels. 

Well then, it's gotta be good.

it's gotta be good. So, I'm gonna, hold on here. Oh, I love that sound. I'm gonna open the mead tonight. And for those of you who don't know, if you've never tried mead, mead is traditionally made from honey. And, um, so, this is kind of an interesting drink.

But, cheers to you, sir.

[00:03:00] Cheers.

Oh, that's tasty.

Spicy.

oh yeah. And you've got, man, you got, what's the proof on your drink by the way?

Um, this is, uh, it's a little light. It's a 121 proof

121 proof. the way, is this something you normally drink in your office?

if I'm being honest, uh, it's pretty much how I start my day anymore. You know, sometimes, uh, to get up and do an insurance, uh, kind of gig, you gotta, you know, You gotta get a little energy to start the day.

You got to get fueled. love Awesome. Excellent. Okay. So I suppose Steve that As a small young child, you know, a small boy, were you raised in Kentucky,

I wasn't, I was actually, I grew up in Ohio.

Ohio? So as a small young boy in Ohio, I imagine you, you had dreams of being an insurance agent and owning an insurance agency, didn't you?

Oh, that, that would be [00:04:00] accurate. I was kind of like, if you recall, um, the show with Alex P. Keaton. You know, I'd wake up every day with the suit and the tie and the briefcase and, uh, talk to people about risk.

Can you imagine that? So how did you get in this business? What? attracted you in this business and what's your journey? Because this is an industry that a lot, everybody has experience with, but doesn't understand much about.

Yeah, yeah, um, I'll be honest with ya, Contrary to what I just said, I actually did everything I could to stay, stay away from insurance. In fact, I, I can think of multiple times in my life where people approached me to sell insurance and do stuff like that. And, I did the Heisman and, took a hard pass there.

But, um, a few years ago, I, I was living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh, I was, doing tech work for Sprint and, uh, moved back to [00:05:00] Ohio and was looking for, you know, a little more of a career type gig. And a friend of my sister's worked in HR at Cincinnati Insurance, and. Cincinnati is based in Fairfield where I grew up actually, um, just kind of outside where my neighborhood was.

And, um, they have a underwriter training program. So, she said, hey, you know, we're, having a new class come in and you should take a look at the job posting and see what you think. So, I read over it and, I think probably the most appealing part to me was it. Didn't say anything about me having to sell the insurance to anybody.

So I thought, okay, I, I can do that sort of thing. I think what the most appealing part was, it was a commercial underwriting position. And I've always been fascinated with, entrepreneurs and business owners. you know, because nobody teaches you how to do that, right? And so, even as a kid, I used to, you know, that own businesses and I thought, gosh, man, they, [00:06:00] they just must be like the smartest people in the world because they figured out how to do something that nobody teaches you how to do.

You don't go to school for it. you know, growing up. You don't learn how to do that. So it was the subject matter was appealing, even though it had to do with insurance. And, um, . You know, as I, as I got into it, man, I just, you know, I started to learn about all different kinds of businesses.

I got to go to huge manufacturing plants. one time I got to go to, if you've ever gone to like the hardware store and bought like work gloves, I've seen how those are made. Like I've been to that very manufacturer's facility. So, um, a couple years ago, I was working remotely.

This was right, I mean literally right before the pandemic hit and I just kind of felt like I had plateaued, kind of hit this point where I wasn't really growing, in my job and that kind of stuff. And I, I'll be honest with you. I just, I felt like [00:07:00] there was a calling for me to, you work more directly with business owners and, start an agency.

So I did.

So you, so you did, that was journey. So explain to me, because I, frankly, I don't really understand how this all works. So what does, what does an underwriter do? What what is an underwriter do? So when you're first trained and you got in this business, what actually were you doing and were you responsible for as an underwriter for an insurance agency?

Or I guess it's an 

Yeah. So, you know, uh, in theory, what an underwriter is supposed to do is they're supposed to look at, a risk. So like on the commercial side, let's just say a hair salon, right? So you're supposed to take a look at a hair salon. and familiarize yourself with the ownership. How long have they been in business?

Have they ever had any claims in the past? What kinds of things do they do? Are they just a pure hair salon? Do they [00:08:00] do, Botox? Do, you know, that, that kind of thing. And then from there, you, you classify it and you determine, Right. And that's, I mean, in the long and short of it, that's, pretty much it.

You, you're reviewing, understanding the business, and then turning that into an insurance policy.

Okay, so let me ask you. Now you're start moving in your journey. And by the way, again, if you're listening, just listen to this from a perspective of understanding a little bit more about an industry or a business that again, all of us have some experience and probably all of us and many of us have bought This thing for years called insurance, and we've never used it, or maybe we have, but we really don't understand how it all works.

It's a bit of a mystery to us, and sometimes it can be a frustrating mystery. But as you listen, it'll be interesting to see what you can learn along the way. So you come now into the agency side, now you own your own agency. Let me ask you, first of all, how [00:09:00] has being an underwriter, do you believe, has made you better?

at what you do as an agency owner. Because I would think the majority of agency owners have never been underwriters.

Yeah. You know, when I, when I first started, I thought, you know, this is going to be, you know, This is going to be awesome. Insurance companies are, they're going to love the fact that I have, all this insurance experience and Cincinnati Insurance in particular has a reputation in the industry.

because they are, so dedicated to education, and people have referred to them as the Harvard of insurance because they really do, like they, spend lots of time making sure that their underwriters are highly educated, understand risk, not just insurance, but understand like, What does somebody do?

What, does a trucking company actually do? What does that look [00:10:00] like? And yeah, I mean, I thought, it would be I don't know, in my head it was, you know, kind of like this every time people heard that I was an underwriter, you know, angels would sing and hallelujah would play in the background.

and you know, ironically. Albeit, it has been helpful, I think, for helping to translate to the end user, the client, the people that I work with. it's honestly, it's been a little bit of a hindrance, or maybe a hindrance to my mental health because, I know how this stuff works, right?

I know how somebody should look at it. and a lot of times you'll get these young new underwriters who all they know is. Computer tells me this, so that's what I do. And when you try and have a conversation or explain certain things or, well, here's why we need to look at it this way, in my head, I envisioned that [00:11:00] like blank stare of somebody just kind of, you know, but ultimately, I think if nothing else, it's given me the ability to figure out how to kind of move.

through some of the barriers that your traditional agent might not have. I mean, you know, I think a lot of times what you'll see in my space is an agent, especially on the commercial side, will go and they'll submit something to a carrier, carrier will say no, and then they're just kind of on, for them it's a numbers game, see for me, it's, it, it really is about each individual, right, it's, it's about I need, I want you to see them how I see them, and that, that I think has been extremely beneficial to balance between consumer consumer.

consumer. And insurance company, you

And I wonder, as you talk about the journey, maybe on the underwriting side, what sort of tweaks my interest is maybe some of the discipline you learned about how to get inside a business and [00:12:00] really understand it, and not just see all businesses the same. Because you know, you could have one, in this case, a hair salon, and a hair salon are not the same risk.

And frankly, it's not just the services, but there could be lots of other factors. So you, you're in that world looking at the unique situation of that risk each time, not just in a cookie cutter way. And maybe that's what helps you a little bit to say, Hey, every business is a little bit different. You get a company that, you know, you get a, brewery who comes to you, somebody who makes, you know, bourbon and somebody who makes moonshine on the surface.

It's exactly the same business. But underneath it, it's very different, and understanding that and the complexities of that is both, as you said, Steve, a blessing and a cursing. On one level, it frustrates you that an insurance carrier is not understanding the nuances and the way they ought to maybe look at you know, then you're brokering that relationship with the client and understanding that. 

So I think that's quite interesting. So let me ask you, are you going to go on the agency side? do you start from [00:13:00] scratch? Do you, buy an existing agency? Do you, like, how do you decide I'm going to get into this thing and how do you, choose to get into it?

know, if I, if I had to do it all over again. So, so when I started just to kind of give you an idea of how I did it, I started from scratch. and so I got my first full appointment in November of 2019. So about 15 minutes before the whole world lost its mind and the pandemic hit. Which incidentally is, probably not the ideal time for somebody to start an insurance agency.

but trying to grow it organically for me wasn't gonna happen. so I searched for an agency to buy. You know, looking at it in hindsight, I mean I wouldn't be where I am today without it. But if I were gonna advise somebody. I would tell [00:14:00] them that if you can, start from scratch, grow it yourself, your agency the way you feel it should be run because what, what happens is you, develop the relationships and you set the expectations with your clients.

When you buy a book, you're inheriting those expectations, those relationships. Um, and, and I'm going to tell you it's, they're never going to match. especially if it's, you know, the agency that I purchased was started in 1978. so, you know, they had a long time to develop those and people came to expect they had been given. And, with an independent agency, because we don't have, sadly, I don't have Patrick Mahomes, doing commercials for me. So I have to really build my business on referrals [00:15:00] and relationships. and if you can build those organically over time, you know, You're really going to set yourself up for a much more successful situation than if you acquire something, not saying that you can't, but it definitely is a lot harder to shift, people's expectations that have been built over years.

Yeah. No. Yeah. That's a journey. I mean, obviously you choose which way you want to go in, but there's challenges as you do that for sure. So, so let me ask you a question. So now you're in the business, you've, you've brought this book of business, you, you know, the insurance products are probably more easily transferred than the relationship.

You know, the, the book of business is both a book of, contracts, but then there's the relational part, which isn't as easy to move, of course. So let me ask you, if I came to you I said, And I own a business. Let's talk about the commercial side. I think you do. You do some personal line stuff and commercial line stuff, I think, right?

I do both. [00:16:00] Yeah, we do pretty much all insurance products.

Okay. So let's let's think on the commercial side for a second on the business side. So when you look at all the different people who come to you and they're looking to get their business or their their risk managed their business insured, whatever they're looking for, And you are, looking at the some experience that you've had with a bunch of people.

What are the two or three things that you wish that they understood better or had a better grasp of in relationship to what they're trying to do and how to actually get what they need from an insurance company and from an agent? Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.

there's, there's a lot there. Um, I think a few things. I think, first and foremost, commercial, in particular, is a real challenge because most people have the experience with personal insurance, right? We all have to have personal insurance on some level. And, um, So our, our [00:17:00] expectations of what does that look like?

How does that go? Are kind of built on the personal lines experience, right? So person goes to get their home and auto insurance and they can walk into like a state farm and all state and maybe they can walk out with a price, right? That's, you know, One carrier, boom, boom, boom, we're done. And I think a lot of times, especially commercial, clients kind of have that same expectation of, Hey, I've got, you know, this business, I've got a restaurant, I need insurance.

And with all the complexities and nuance and the fact that commercial insurance really is a lot of times people say, Hey, Tell me a story, right? So we have to tell a story. Well, I have to build that story, right? Which means I need to learn about you and your business. Now, most the time I'll do that through, social [00:18:00] media and that kind of stuff has been really helpful in that regards, because I can learn a lot about a business by looking through their social media and stuff, but that process is not quick, and especially right now, insurance in general, but commercial insurance in particular, is really, really tough.

carriers are sort of flooded with, Submissions, people trying to get, you know, more competitive rates, better terms, a lot of carriers are getting out of markets that they were in in the past. So it's sort of pushing those markets, a little bit tighter. And so what happens then is the turnaround time on submissions new or sometimes even renewal, and in some cases, like, we've got a client right now that, good friend of my business partner, uh, they have a, a very successful, pest control business.

And we've been working [00:19:00] on it for probably about two and a half months now. you know, market that we initially went to, there was one little tiny nuance that they weren't comfortable with, so they were out on all of it. And that set us out on this journey of trying to find a marketplace for it.

And, you know, we still are, we're still working on that. We're still trying to find that kind of little final piece, to get them in place. So, you know, sometimes, you know if you want the best terms, the best pricing, it takes time. And on our end, there's a lot of hours, a lot of phone calls, a lot of emails that go into that.

so that, that I would say is probably more than anything, I don't think a lot of people, realize just how much work goes in to actually obtaining those kinds of terms. And if I were going to pick one other thing, I would probably say that, you know, at the end of the day, the thing that everybody [00:20:00] thinks about when it comes to insurance is price, right?

I could tell you that, your policy, covers A, B, and C. You won't hear that. What you'll hear is, here's how much it costs. Well, on both personal and commercial, there's a lot that goes into that final price. And I think so many people believe that it's like all things are equal, right? If I go to this place and I get a policy here and it's a thousand dollars a year, it's equal to the 1, 200 policy from this place over here.

But the reality is that's, almost never the case. sometimes it does come down to, to, rating and all that kind of stuff. But most of the time, especially on the commercial side. there could be dramatic coverage difference. For example, I might have had your business for three years, and I know [00:21:00] exactly what your payroll or your sales are.

And that's what I'm using, right? Because I don't want you to get hit with the big audit at the end of the year. Well, Mr. Ambitious Agent down the road, he says, Hey, I can get that cheaper for ya. So you, you start working with him and he says, all right, you know, what's your, what's What's your annual sales?

Well, I've got you at a million dollars. He's got you at 500, 000. Well, guess what? His policy is gonna be cheaper. Now, you're still gonna pay for that at the end of the year. But the difference is at that point you've already left. You left that relationship and you've gone to this guy Whichever, who manipulated the numbers to reach, essentially the only thing you cared about, which is a lower.

right. So it sounds like, I mean, as you describe that, first of all, that, that sounds difficult and frustrating at times, I'm sure. And I, yeah, and I think the other part is, it sounds like that what really makes a great Yeah. Potential relationship between me and an [00:22:00] agency or an agent is actually the robustness of the questions that both of us ask when we get around this experience, because what you're telling me is, is that what makes maybe one agent better than another?

Is actually their ability to ask better questions, to gather information and understand and what makes me probably better in relationship to the choice that I'm going to make for who I'm going to be insured by or partner with comes down to the questions that I'm asking because the risk reward of not asking great questions is quite high.

Actually what I hear you saying is that my risk is increased, which is kind of interesting I purchase insurance to reduce risk. Yet what you're suggesting to me is if my agency or my agent and I am not asking great questions, we actually introduce greater risk, not actually assuage it.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:00] And, you know, as you were saying that it, sort of kind of dawned on me here, the amount of questions that I, the guy down the street, the guy co agent, the all state agent, the amount of questions that we have to answer. Yeah. They're all the same. So the agent that's asking you less questions is just coming up with the answers, right?

So that, that really is the difference. And from a sales perspective, right? We want to make the sales process as painless as possible, but insurance is not painless. It is in fact the opposite. It is painful. Somebody does have to answer those questions. But, where the difference comes in is, did I actually ask you those questions?

Or did I just ask you enough questions so that I can submit your application, get what I want outta it?

Yeah, for sure. So let me ask you, in all the experience you've had, can you, obviously, we don't want names, but give [00:24:00] an example of a time maybe when, You had an opportunity to chat with a potential customer or a customer, and you uncovered some things in that conversation that you then had a choice about.

You know, do you let the customer know? Do you not let the customer know? Whether it was about the current insurance they had and maybe its value or lack of value, maybe about something that you understood that they didn't. And you had to explain something to them.

And actually it had tremendous value in the conversation. Is there an example that might come to mind where, where you're applying this skill of asking better questions and uncovering things and it really uncovers something?

Yeah. I mean there, there's a lot of examples, on a small level of that. But one that kind of comes to mind is, is sort of a recent, situation that I had. It was a older couple, a retired couple that. Came to me for their home and auto and, you know, of course they were looking to, to lower the cost of their insurance.

Great. No [00:25:00] problem. Ran it through. Things looked great. But I said hey, how old is your roof? Right now That's kind of the hot button in homeowners insurance's age of roof We have carriers that if it's over 10 years old, it's a no go doesn't matter

Wow.

and I said, you know How old is your roof? I'm pretty good about eyeballing it, but I also it's important to ask Right, because nobody wants to get their home, you know, their policy non renewed two weeks after they, moved and, and wrote a new policy.

So, and she, she told me it was original, which was about 18 years. So it's a newer home. Great, very nice home, but in the insurance world, An original roof. That's bad. So I said, well, I'm not going to be able to help you. I just being perfectly honest with you ran, ran the numbers and I showed her, I say, I'm not going to be able to help you.

So however you [00:26:00] get that roof replaced, you come back to me and I promise you I can help you out. I can accomplish what you're looking for. I figured I was not going to hear from her again. rarely do people say, okay, sure, I'm going to go spend 18, 000 on it on a new roof. Just so I can get more competitive insurance.

But doggone it, she sure did. I mean, it was about six weeks later, I got an email from her and she said, hey, got our roof replaced, all done. Okay, uh, all right. All right. So, you know, now if you looked at her current insurance policy I think they said her roof was like 11 years old 10 years old.

And that, you know, that's the kind of stuff, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I would bet probably 90, percent of the people that come to me, there are inherent flaws. Either in their coverage, or how they're being [00:27:00] rated. Um, the information that's being provided. Now, some of that can, can come down to a number of things.

But, a lot of times you can tell that the information Probably wasn't, provided, at the time that the policies were written.

Hmm. Interesting. And at the end of the day, I mean, legislation is probably different. I'm in Canada, you're in the U. S., state to state, problems to problems in Canada, country to country. But do you actually risk, uh, non payment, so in your world where you are licensed and where you practice.

So if I am disingenuous in the information that I provide you or that we end up providing together, to an insurance company, do we risk totaling non payment?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a gamble. Some would call it, uh, technically you'd call it insurance fraud, but in most cases, yes. I think probably best [00:28:00] case scenario, if they discover that it's a non renewal. Worst case scenario, is they find out during the claim and that claim isn't getting paid for.

 and that's probably kind of the worst, worst situation. I've seen plenty of those, you know, where, hey, you said you were doing this. And that's totally not true. We're not paying this claim and we're non renewing your policy. Yeah.

That's a risk. Now, I, I was reading recently that because, you know, because of certain risk profiles and different things that are happening, at times, insurance companies will make decisions and say, we're gonna get out of this business. We're not gonna write this business and we're not gonna do this.

Obviously, in North America, we're seeing Potentially, I guess it could be cyclical. We don't know, but we're seeing something changing. I know in where I live, the weather patterns seem to be changing. I have no idea why it is. That's that's for another podcast. Conspiracies are us dot com.

That's not where we're going tonight. But, um, [00:29:00] but clearly something's changing and, you know, insurance companies have an appetite for certain risk and then not because at the end of the day, insurance companies like banks, they make a lot of money and they don't make money because their claims are higher than the revenue.

I mean, that's not the way the business works. Somebody, you know, people, I don't know, think. People that think that insurance companies are not for profit agencies. Not quite the case, think. 

No.

So, you and I were chatting a couple weeks ago, and you were telling me about experience where a particular person came to get some auto insurance on a certain type of vehicle that you had some understanding that, for whatever reasons, companies were not wanting to write certain insurance on this particular kind of car 

because there was something happening.

Are you seeing more of that or is that an anomaly? But because that seems quite surprising to me.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I, and I would say, um, mean we've kind of been in this space for probably a year and a half now. I'll be honest with you, I don't know. expect more things like that to [00:30:00] continue. you know, especially as people find new ways to make money. are all gonna be, you know, new or fun.

Is always like kryptonite to the insurance world, you know, it's like oh Five million dollars to ensure that have a nice day. they have the ability to do that you know prime example As we enjoy, uh our spirits here, you know, kentucky is known for two things horses And bourbon, 

right? 

insurance agencies.

Well, maybe after this show, um but last year I had uh there were three siblings and they they had decided to buy this building and renovate it and they turned it into We'll call it a bar, but it was, it was sort of a, kind of a neat idea. They, they worked with like local craft breweries to sort of act as like an independent tap house for [00:31:00] these local breweries.

They weren't open late. Um, you know, they didn't do a lot of the things that a lot of the bars, but they were a startup. They were not, you know, raking in the dough at this point. And the first year that I wrote their insurance, of course, we had to get liquor liability. And it was expensive, but it was doable.

Next year, carrier that we were using decided, nah, we're not doing liquor liability anymore.

Wow.

And so, now, you go across the river, which, across the river is 15 minutes from me, in either direction, Indiana or Ohio, They'll sell you liquor liability in those states, and it's super cheap. Well, as soon as that carrier decided they weren't gonna do liquor liability anymore, then we had to go find other markets.

Well, their, the most competitive option I could find for them was about 15, 000 a year. their liquor liability the year [00:32:00] before was about 5, 000. So it's not that carriers wouldn't do it. But, if you're making 90, 000 a year in revenue, 15, 000 a year for your liquor liability is, pretty undoable. and that's, you know, that's been a pretty common occurrence, and it's like, I said, I mean, there's two things, two major things, major things, that Kentucky is known for, one of them being liquor. And yet you can't find competitive liquor liability for a small local bar. and so, yeah, I mean, stuff like that is, I would say probably, at least quarterly, if not monthly happening,

Interesting. So, do you, do you think that a lot of people, let's say it's business startups, you think that the insurance side of their expense structure in their business is one of the first things or the last things that they actually consider?

it's always the last.

Slash and because the [00:33:00] scenario you're describing is suggesting in the climate that's changing Again, if you're listening in and you have a business listen if you're in this the great state of Kentucky That you're licensed to sell in the great state of Kentucky,

correct. 

Yep. 

but not beyond correct

I can't. Yep. Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, and a handful of other states.

Okay. So listen, you, got to hunt down Steve. Steve is not only a great human, Steve is a brilliant, agent. And I know that he is careful and caring when it comes to his business and his clients. I know that. I've known Steve for a long time. I have deep respect. I'd buy my insurance from Steve if I could, but I can't.

So if you could buy insurance from Steve and we'll tell you to hunt him down, you had to look him up. What's your agency called?

It's Adkisson, A D K I S S O N insurance.

Okay, you got to look him up and find insurance from him, but if you're not in the great state of Kentucky or any of the states that Steve buys from, I'm going to encourage you that whether it's personal insurance or whether it's [00:34:00] corporate insurance, you know, one of the things I've learned in tying to Steve is, you know, we can all bury our head in the sand about the potential liability we carry and whether we're covered or not, but I, you know, by gosh, by golly, I'm really going to encourage you to ask better questions.

of the insurance you have and the people you buy it from. Because not everybody is as ethical and grounded as Steve is, and not everybody is going to have the same conversation with you, I guarantee you, if you're listening in. And some of you, in fact, it might be more than a majority of the people listening right now, you think you're covered for things, and the answer is you are not.

You are not well covered. You could be personally, it could be professionally, God forbid, you know, you have a catastrophic loss, something happens, something happens in your business, something happens in your home. and I know this from my own experience. My My brother, was renovating his home, this was 30 something years ago, 25 years ago.

He was renovating his home, and he had a contractor in, [00:35:00] who, did not carry all the insurance they needed to, he didn't know that. And one of the workers fell through a second floor and had a life altering injury. And my brother's insurance, home insurance, paid that claim and paid it out.

And my brother was really glad that he had the insurance that would cover properly because that man's life was altered at my brother's house. And that insurance carrier took care of the medical expenses and that person and the loss of income. And I'm going to tell you at the end of the day, if you looked at what they would have paid out over the lifespan of that gentleman and the premium my brother would have paid, let's not fool ourselves.

The premium would have been a small pittance compared to the payout. You know, and insurance is something we all, you know, disdain having to get and pay for, but when we have to access it, it affords us something. That's really important. And you know, a lot of countries around the world, you know, I worked in [00:36:00] Africa enough, you don't get insurance, you insurance, you don't get insurance for lots of stuff.

So it's not a right, it's a privilege. And it is of course, a requirement in some states. In some states, I think you don't have to have certain insurance for things. But there's a requirement in Canada for a lot of this stuff. But again, my provocation to you personally and professionally is ask better questions about your insurance products you have and the insurance people you buy from.

Because I have to admit, I'm not sure I'm fully and rightfully insured the way I should be. And I can tell you right now, Steve, I've never told you this, but you know, I run a training and consulting business and coaching business and I do, you know, I do training on site, but most of my business is virtual now, but I've never carried liability insurance.

The only time I've ever carried liability insurance is when I do an event. I'll purchase event insurance to cover that 

event. But I am probably woefully, uh, not well insured for what I do. If somebody was to sue me because I gave them bad coaching advice and they went off half cocked, I probably have no protection, more than likely.

Would [00:37:00] you agree with that?

Yeah, well, and that's a great point you bring up because, in fact, I just, had this conversation with, a financial advisor that I have their, general liability and property coverage. And I said, you know, Hey, I, I was looking through here and I noticed we don't have your, professional liability.

I said, you know, where, where do you have that? And, um, again, like sometimes can see like facial expressions through email and it was kind of like that, you know, like back when we used to have dial up internet and, and you could like listen to it and you're like, oh yeah, that's a good connection.

Like you can kind of hear that and she wrote back and she said, well, what is this policy that you sent me cover? And I'm thinking you don't have professional and you probably didn't, but see, that's the thing is a lot of times people don't even know what types of coverage that they should have because general liability doesn't cover your acts professionally, right?

So as a consultant, you have a, [00:38:00] professional component that differs from just as a standard general liability policy, but you wouldn't know that unless somebody told you. Yeah.

because now on on my podcast, 

Steve has told me and I have fessed up and confessed. And funny enough, my partner, uh, who came on with us a couple of years ago, she recently asked me this question, Hey, well, what kind of insurance do you carry? And I said to her, I don't carry insurance.

I never have. And, and. you could have just cut the thick, of the room a knife. It was just like, okay, maybe I need to think about this. So, I, listen, listen, ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening in, you're listening in for a reason. I am gonna ask better questions about my insurance, lack thereof, and the people that I would buy from.

You need to do the same. So, Steve, if people wanted to hunt you down, if were in an area where you can sell them insurance, or even if they want to hunt you down, and they want to figure out how they can, figure out how to, ask better questions. 

Yeah. 

the best way for them to find you?

So [00:39:00] you can find me on our website that's, atkisson insurance.com. you can also email me, my email address is Steven with a ph@atkissoninsurance.com. And that's probably the best way to reach me. And, and even if I'm not in a place where I can sell insurance, I'm always happy to answer questions.

That's probably my favorite part of what I do is. You know, look at what people have going on and answer simple questions. I hear all the time. Well, I, you know, I never can get ahold of my people. I'll answer you back. And, that's definitely probably my favorite part of what I do.

Yeah, and guess the best part is, is that's Not 

the moonshine talking. 

That's because I because I know 

because I know Steve and Steve is a great man. And I wanted to have this conversation. I, I said to Steve, Hey, let's have this conversation because, you know, it's something we don't talk a lot about.

You know, it's kind of one of these things that most people don't get together and say, Hey, what do you got for insurance? Hey, let's compare. We don't talk about insurance, insurance. Most people sort of [00:40:00] hate it. They don't know if they like it. You know, years ago, full confession, my original consulting and training in the sales world was actually in the insurance and finance industry.

So I did a lot of training in the insurance industry and at that time, this was years ago, this was in the, I guess it would be the late nineties, early two thousands. And, uh, you know, one of the books I read at the time was actually a book it was a disparaging book about the industry.

a good but it was called Merchants of Fear. Actually, a very interesting book, and they're predicated on the idea that the more we buy into the fear of risk or loss, the more we would want to insure against it. And there is some truth to that. But at the same time, again, if you think about the cost, what do I pay?

You know, I pay 200 and something dollars a month for car insurance for my two vehicles in Canada, you know. But again, think about if I get, get in a situation where I have a loss and they replace those vehicles, that's cheap money. Of course, it's expensive when you pay it, it feels expensive when you pay it, and you never ever get to claim on it.

But, if you never get to claim on it, it probably means a a lot of bad [00:41:00] things haven't happened to you or others to have to claim on it. So, hey listen, I want to wrap up, but, you know, my podcast is this world of uncommodified. And, uh, you are uncommodified in my world, Steve, the way you've approached this.

So, let me ask you, when you, uh, Honestly, look at the other agents that you know and you've connected with over the years and not to be disparaging to them. But how is it that you know, in any given day, because I know this is important to you when you go to work every day and you know you're doing a great job and you're uncommodifying the world that you work in a world that, frankly, sometimes is quite, uh, Not a disrespected or not respected within the sales community.

Insurance agents probably are in the car salesman. Uh, right? 

So but when you when you're trying to uncommodify and bring differentiation and unique value to the people that you're in, what is it that you know that you're doing that as I'm trying to uncommodify the world that you work in? What is it that you do that you think [00:42:00] is that unique contribution?

Well, honestly, it comes down to how I approach every account, every client, every interaction. I have one important goal and, I kind of started using this when I talk to people about my goal, my objective. you know, people come to me with a bucket of money, they have a bucket of money.

I don't know what that is and honestly, it doesn't matter to me what that is. But you come to me with a bucket of money and we need to make sure that the product you walk out with utilizes that bucket of money as effectively as possible, right? And I don't care what that money is. You know, a lot of people get into this to make a lot of money and yes, I need to feed my family, but at the end of the day, I want people to feel like they have a partner, somebody that you know, maybe doesn't even have [00:43:00] to do with insurance.

I mean, I have conversations with people. I work with a lot of new dentists. who are just starting their practice and, they don't know what to do. How, how do I do this? How do I do that? and those are the kinds of things that I want my clients to see me as, right? and I think the further away from an insurance agent I can get, probably the better.

but I would say that's, probably it. My goal is not just to bring you in, get your money, send you out the door and see you in 12 months. My job is to make sure that you walk away knowing that I understand your business. I've crafted a policy to make sure that it works for you, but also doesn't eat up all of your cashflow.

And then as time goes on, whether we all want businesses to grow or your family grows, that you [00:44:00] can connect with me and understand how, how does my policy need to change? Do I need to do anything or are we good as we are? and I think that, that really is where we try and differentiate ourselves is that I'm not selling you a policy, I'm selling you a person.

Right? That person just so happens to come with the policy as the vehicle for that.

I appreciate that, and that's interesting because, you know, when I look at insurance, 

Mm 

and when I trained in insurance years ago, we would talk about, you're not buying a policy, you're buying a promise of payment.

What I really like of what you just said is, they might a promise of payment from the insurance company.

hmm.

They're buying a person with you, and that is a different way of looking at it. And I appreciate that about the way you look at life, Steve, and the way you look at this. And I'm glad that there's people like you in this business. It's a [00:45:00] tough business, and it's getting tougher. 

And that's the last thing I want to say in this conversation.

Hey, if you've had an agent that you've worked with for a long time, hey, could you maybe take away part of this conversation? It is a much more complex world. That they operate and work in today than it was 20 or 30 years ago when they became your agent. You know, some of us have had agents for 20, 30 years, maybe longer in our life.

Whether it's a life insurance agent or whether it's a home and auto broker or an agency. And you know, can I just encourage you that the complexity of the worlds that they work in has changed a lot. The fighting that they do and the contending they do for you in the background, which they are not apt to tell you about, has increased.

You know, Steve has given you some insight into the difficulty of placing business. And I would assume, Steve, that regardless of whether you work Uh, two months or two years or two minutes on a policy. Once you write it, you get paid the same, I assume.

Yep.

And so, can I encourage you that maybe from the other side, [00:46:00] the human side is, if you've had an agent you partner with, uh, for a long time, could you maybe appreciate the complexity of the worlds that they work in today, which have changed a lot?

It's much different today than it was when you bought that policy 20, 30 years ago. And today, if you go for a renewal and it's a little bit harder, it's much harder. Just remember that they're not standing in your way of trying to get something they're trying to manage the complexity of relationships and expectations that are changing in a global economy and global market where losses are ultimately, absorbed by the rate payers.

They are not absorbed or paid by insurance companies. I think that's the way it 

works, isn't it, 

Steve? 

Yep. That's exactly right.

so my last provocation to you as we finish up is be kind and compassionate to yourself and to your insurance partners, whether you're in business or within a personal side, because everything is more difficult and the world isn't just conspiring against you.

The world is conspiring at times against all of us in this grand adventure. Now insurance is also a privilege. [00:47:00] It's a privilege that we can have it. If you didn't have it, if you had a loss, you could go bankrupt in an instant, and we forget the privilege that maybe we have based on the luxury of this product that seems so simple and available.

So, Steve, I really appreciate your time today. If you listened, guys, you've listened for a reason. Think about your life. Think about it differently. Think about your business. Think about the risks that you have, how to manage them, and do this in such a way that you're managing that risk so that it doesn't eat away the value that you've created for others along the way and yourself, because that would be a disaster.

Because that is what is on the line at the end of the day if we don't insure ourselves well. And, full disclosure, I am not insured properly. Clearly. And I have something that I need to do as a result of this. Hopefully you might do as well. Thanks for listening in. Have a great day. Be curious. Be bold. And uncommodify yourself.

Cheers.