LIVING in the LIGHT of MANDELA’S SHADOW: UNCORKED with Craig Minchin

What does it take to shape history, not be victimized by it?

In this UNCORKED conversation, Tim Windsor and Craig Minchin explore the life and leadership of Nelson Mandela—one of the most iconic figures of the twentieth century. This isn’t a sanitized story of saintly perfection but a raw look at how a man with flaws, convictions, and an unshakable vision changed not just a nation but the way we think about courage, reconciliation, and power.

Listeners will be challenged to see Mandela not just as a distant hero, but as a model of resilience and resolve who chose forgiveness when revenge seemed inevitable, and who showed that true leadership is about serving something bigger than yourself. Craig and Tim analyze lessons from Mandela’s prison years, his political rise, and his ability to unite a divided nation—prompting us to consider what we would stand for if everything was at stake.

By the end of this conversation, you’ll walk away with more than admiration for Mandela—you’ll carry practical, honest questions about your own life and leadership. How do you lead when the cost is high? What grudges are you holding that prevent you from real freedom? And what kind of legacy are you willing to risk everything to create?

This episode isn’t just about Mandela—it’s about you, and whether you’re brave enough to live uncommodified.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

[00:00:00] Have you ever asked yourself how long you could fight for freedom, especially if you knew that it might cost you everything you had? Could you stand firm against injustice when your enemy isn't just the system but it's despair itself? Mandela Nelson, Mandela. Didn't just face these questions he asked and answered them on a long and hard journey that included 18 grueling years imprisoned on Rob Island.

I've had the brutal privilege of standing in his cell, a cold concrete cage, stripped of everything except hope guided that day by a man who was imprisoned with Mandela and suffered alongside him. What a powerful reminder to me that true leadership isn't forged in comfort, but in the crucible of struggle.

The conversation we're about to embark on on this episode will take us beyond the myth and into the marrow of Mandela's life, unpacking powerful [00:01:00] lessons from an impressive and imperfect man who transformed bitterness into grace captivity, into a platform for unity and relentless suffering into a rallying cry for reconciliation.

If you're tired of comfortable cliches about leadership and courage, get ready for a raw confrontation with what it takes to really lead, not from the position of privilege, but from within the belly of oppression itself. Mandela's life doesn't just inspire. It challenges each of us to measure our resolve against his somewhat messy and monumental legacy.

Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Un Commodified Podcast. I'm Tim WinDor, and today my guest, once again is my great friend. Craig Minchin Craig, welcome back to the show.

Thank you very much as always, Tim. Good to see you.

And I always like to say just not my great fan, but my leadership historian. That, that makes me feel so good that I got Craig, my leadership historian.

And for those of you who have been part of this journey for a long time, you know that Craig and I have done podcasts [00:02:00] together over the years about historic leaders and looking at things. 'cause this is Craig's, uh, this is Craig's area of expertise and research and, um. Then Craig went dark for so long on me, he couldn't find a guy.

No, I could find him 'cause he comes over for cigars and scotch to my house. But this was a long time in the making, which is kind of interesting. So we're gonna talk about this 'cause we've been talking about having this conversation for a long time. But of course, before we get into that, you know, I do think that every UNCORK conversation, and surely every conversation that you and I Craig mostly have does start with a wee drink a weed dr.

Some days. So what are you drinking today?

I am drinking, uh, some bourbon. I'm not sure if you can see the bottle there. It's called Penelope. 

Penelope. 

It is, straight bourbon whiskey from, of course, the state of And I'll be, uh, drinking that this, this evening with

Excellent. Excellent. Well, you know what I actually decided to get the bottle of the whiskey we shared the last time you were here. 'cause it's so drinkable. So this [00:03:00] is an Indian. Fusion. It's called Fusion Amro is the name, and it's a fusion between Indian barley and Scottish barley, but not just any Scottish barley.

My favorite Scottish barley, Isla Scottish barley, which means this is this unique taste between this Indian barley and this pitted barley, and it's really drinkable. I loved it. Remember?

I absolutely loved it and I love learning new things 'cause it's scotch. It only comes from Scotland, right? Wrong,

right. Ooh, so good. I know. It's all over the place now listen to this here. I love this sound.

Listen. Oh, what a sound. Okay, I'm trying to pour this one now. Right in front of the microphone. Listen, boy. Listen to the sound of that. All right, I gotta put the lid on this. 'cause the other day I almost knocked a whole bottle of whiskey over when I was podcasting. So I don't wanna do that. It was at the beginning, not near the end. Just at the [00:04:00] beginning. Cheers to you, my friend. Hmm. Oh yeah. Very drinkable. how's your Kentucky Strait Bourbon.

Uh, I've never met a bourbon I don't like, so, um, you know, is very, very smooth. Anyway, it's

absolutely 

I, I love it too. So, little factoid before we get into Nelson Mandela. So a lot of people believe that for, uh, American whiskey to be called the bourbon, that has to be made in Kentucky, that's not true. Although I think almost 80 or 90% of bourbon still comes from Kentucky, partly because the water source is so pure.

They have limestone. The water is so pure that it is still the go-to place for bourbon, even though you can make bourbon other places. But Kentucky Straight Bourbon is the creme de la creme of the bourbon

Glorious stuff. Yeah, glorious stuff.

Glorious place. Glorious stuff. All right, listen, enough about whiskey.

We can talk, we should do a whole podcast on whiskey.

That'd be kind of fun.

If we should actually,

We should, [00:05:00] and we should like drink touring whole thing and see how, what it sounds like at the end.

You know, that could just go in so many different directions and uh, yeah, it'd 

be unpredictable, 

that's for 

sure. 

I'm signing up for that one. One day we're gonna do that. That that'll be a good one. Okay. Alright, now shenanigans back to the matter hand. I am really glad that you come back on the show to have a chat, Craig. 'cause I always love learning from you and I know my listeners do so. 

So you and I have been talking about.

Having a chat about Nelson Mandela for probably a couple of 

years. actually. And, um, you know, I had had a privilege of spending a lot of time in Africa, throughout, some charity work that I did over the years and some leadership development work at in Africa. And so, you know, I, as I said, I had the privilege of being on Roben Island it was, man, it was a crazy experience.

And the way they do the tours, as I mentioned. So the tours at Roben Island today are only conducted. By former prisoners. 

So is your [00:06:00] tour guide spent time at Robin Island. It is, it is so very, very powerful. It is a powerful 

experience and it was a brutal place for sure. So let's talk about Mr.

Mandela. So tell us a little bit about this man and why should his life and legacy, even though it's a bit messy, uh, why 

should it be something that we would wanna look to and be 

inspired by? 

sure, sure. So you've. Just in the introduction, you focused on the part that he's probably most known for. Ironically enough, actually, uh, his time on Robin Island in prison, and, um. We'll, we'll kind of get to that. But he, he certainly didn't start life off as a prisoner.

He started his life off. He was born in think 1918. Uh, he started off his life, in rural South Africa. I hope people know this. They don't. It is, it was very much a, an art apartheid segregated state. his father was, a, a polygamist, as was the custom of his tribe. So his father had four wives.

[00:07:00] Which means Nelson was one of nine children. Um, his father died when he was nine, I believe. And because his father was an influential member of the community, Nelson and his, mother and his siblings were taken in by the equivalent of the chief. And basically, I mean, although we wouldn't consider a privileged existence by our standards, it did give him the opportunity to go get educated, have food on the table every night, uh, water, you know, uh, I'm not sure running water, but, you know, clean drinking water.

but education was really, really the big, , influence, uh, o over his life. And that only came about as a result of the tribal chief den. Uh, so in a way, Tim, he was actually almost raised as a prince. 

Interesting. Well, and it's interesting because he has this, moment of pain, obviously losing his father. But it does, from what you're saying, it changes as a bit of the trajectory maybe of his experience, because now he's raised in a different place and probably of course we sort of, we have this folklore [00:08:00] myth that grows around this, but I wonder if people start to see in this story, they part start to see this thread or narrative of destiny in this 

sure. Yeah. you know, so part of my research to him, in, in, whenever I get into any of the characters, I try and get as holistic a view of them as is possible. And with him, his, his life is such, like, on such a grand scale, it's really, really challenging. But what I started to kind of pinpoint was certain moments in his life around some of his hobbies or activities.

So, uh, one of his, hobbies when he was a young man and even into his early twenties. And, and just kind of think about this in the context of a, of a man who's lived with segregation, who's lost his father at a young age. Yes, he's got some privilege, but it's certainly clear he's a step below everyone else.

One of his hobbies was he became a boxer, so he was a heavyweight boxer. And that really lined up with, I say, his persona at the time. So, Nelson Mandela was a scrapper of a guy. He was a scrapper. Uh, I, [00:09:00] you know, I thought when I started researching him, I was gonna get into this, this almost this folk hero, this, like the monument of Nelson Mandela.

And I found the man Nelson Mandela instead this guy who loved to duke it out in the ring. who was a fighter, a scrapper who, was quite prone to violence, didn't shy away from violence. And it's interesting 'cause of course his life did not end, in that mindset. But he spent a good number of his years, as a boxer before he kind of became Nelson Mandela, as we know him.

Wow. So he, so he's growing up in this environment. he's got his crappy attitude. He's fighting his way up, like a lot of people trying to find his way. And so at some point his life begins to move in some different 

circles. 

So he very quickly realized that, uh, there was a great career waiting for him. Uh, obviously he was a very intelligent man. He had, he did go to university that was well known for. , You know, higher education, I guess you could say specifically for the black, [00:10:00] population in South Africa.

so anyway, his profession, he went into closest thing to boxing for him was law. So he became a lawyer. He figured, I, I can't hit people in, in, you know, in real life anymore. I'm gonna duke it out with them in the courtroom. And so that's how he kinda, entered into his professional life. uh, he and his partner actually became, I think.

They started the first black owned law firm, certainly in Johannesburg. It may have been all South Africa. And so, uh, they saw a need for the black population to be represented. And so he took off his boxing gloves, went into the courtroom and started representing, black and, and also white, people, in, in legal affairs.

That's, that's interesting. You know, I, I mean, I knew historically that he was a lawyer. I had no idea he was a boxer. So this, again, if you're listening in, I mean, the one thing I wanna remind you of listeners is, is that we don't pre-plan these conversations. So they find their way as we talk. And, and, you know, when Craig [00:11:00] did this research, we haven't chatted at all about the things that are, have sort of highlighted.

For him and what he's gonna highlight for us during this conversation. So I get to experience it as you do listeners. so that's interesting because there is a, like a common thread. It's this scrappy fighty fighter who wants to fighty. That's not, that's a 

terrible 

Uh, it works. for unmodified, 

scrappy fighter who, who then starts to realize that probably if he's gonna duke it out with the 

system. 

Yeah. 

He better get some education. He better understand it. he better come at it differently. Partly because I'm sure, because he's black, so he's at a deficit already. And so now he puts him in himself, a place where he can begin to, make argument or understanding or defense in relationship to, clear laws

that would bring guidance and governance to 

a community. 

Yeah. Yeah. His brilliance. it's like the, the other civil [00:12:00] rights leader that you and I, uh, talked about way back, Martin Luther King, Jr. Of course, you can see the parallels. His brilliance was he wasn't changing laws. He was actually showcasing the existing laws to South African society say that, Hey, on paper, this is what you say, and you're not living up to it.

And that became his. Weapon is actually, I think in this context, weapon of choice would be probably be, uh, very

appropriate. 

Okay, so he becomes a lawyer. He's you know, that's all happening. But then he begins to use his understanding of the law and he starts to turn it in on the system, which is in the parallel. You're just drawing is very interesting because obviously, you know, MLK Jr did the same thing in relationship, for instance, to the Emancipation Proclamation.

Right? He, he, I think he described it in his, in that amazing speech. You know, in Washington, uh, the, what we call the, I have a dream speech. You know, he, he likens, the situation in America at the time that this, this check was written. That ought to guarantee or [00:13:00] give the freedom to black Americans, which was the proclamation of freedom.

And what he said is, is that when the black man and women tried to cash the check, I think is the language uses that. It was non-sufficient funds. There was nothing to draw on. But he's actually literally taking that language, that document, and he's setting it up and saying, you promised us this and you guys have 

correct, correct, Yeah. So it's really strong parallel there. So, so he pivots his legal knowledge, his education. and you know, it's very clear he wants to get involved with civil, civil affairs. I mean, that was really the elephant in the room. you know, like he wanted to kind of transform the society and so he gets involved with the, uh, political party, uh, the African National Congress.

was founded long, long time ago. because I think of his leadership skills, probably his eloquence, his knowledge of the law, he doesn't just become a member of the party. He actually starts to become a very influential voice, of the party as they start to work at policy.

Like, [00:14:00] how are we gonna get, you know, equality for, uh, well for all Africans, you know, for all South Africans. So it becomes a voice starts to raise, you know, raise his profile within the party and it goes really, really well. Like this would be just an awesome story. He started off as a boxer, then he went to a lawyer, and then he became a terrorist.

Uh, so yeah, he was a saboteur. , So once they tried, you know, the peaceful negotiation, the peaceful, like, Hey, we want, you know, we don't want to be superior, like. We wanna be equal with you. And once the government just kinda kept shutting them down, shutting them down, harassing them, I, I guess the party just said, well, you know what, it's time for us to start our own militant wing and Nelson.

You're gonna be the person to create the militant wing of the African National Congress, I think it's called The spear of Africa, is what it translates to in English. And so he became a saboteur and he a non soldier. He wasn't a soldier, but he was tasked with learning how to build an army, a militant army within.

The 

African 

Wow. What, what, okay. [00:15:00] This is a part of the story I'd never realized. Now this is where his story does obviously deviate from MLKs, but kind of there is a lot of similarities. But, you know, when you say saboteur, it's interesting. My wife and I, uh, watched a movie recently. , It might've been on Netflix, but I can't remember, but it, it's about dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Oh sure. Yeah. 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for those of you who know or don't know, was a Lutheran, , theologian and, uh, German, and ended up, , at odds with, uh, Hitler and the Nazis during the war and ended up.

Leaving the country and being in safety, but then returning 'cause he felt he had a mission to do and he also got wrapped up in an assassination attempt of Hitler. And he ended up being tried in the end and technically losing his life, on the conviction of , being someone who has tried to assassinate 

Hitler. 

Yeah, Yeah. so in, in his role as. [00:16:00] The head of the militant wing of the African National Congress, he actually went on a tour around Africa, very covertly to all the other African nations, basically to, to fundraise to get money for their cause. And he did it, I think disguise as a chauffeur.

Uh, yeah, so he, because he was known you know, the, the equivalent of Secret Service. And, uh, so he went around, Africa, getting, you know, money, for the cause. And when he returned series of events, people were onto them, the government was onto him. He was arrested. Long story short trials, you know, back and forth.

, Um, that is when he entered his next stage of his career in his life. So he went from boxer, lawyer, saboteur to prisoner, and that is what he's most known for. So he was, yeah, definitely charged for, I think it was, maybe insurrection was the official, it's, it's all legalese. But, you know, they had 'em, you know, they, they had all the evidence that they needed and, uh, he was.[00:17:00] 

Guilty according to law, even if morally, , there is maybe some, uh, dubious 

motivation 

know, it's it's interesting because when you look at this story so far, I mean, there's some redemptive qualities in it, but it just seems, seems a little bit nefarious, , overall so far.

So it's, it's strange because we don't typically think of Mandela in these ways. We see him, , in a very different way globally and ev eventually we see him differently.

Of course, everybody can change and they can go through. There can be a redemption and there can be, a change of heart and mind. But, so he ends up in prison now. So he spends, I think, if I recall, he spends like almost 30 years in prison. I know 

he spent 

years 

years in Rob 

Island. I think. 

yeah. 27 years in total in, in prison. So, you know, Tim, as I was doing my research and I was thinking 27 years, like what was I doing 27 years ago? And you know what, I may as well just call it, he spent a lifetime in prison because that means you're missing your, children. uh, he now I will say he was missing [00:18:00] his.

Wives because he was a serial philander. so, uh, but missed, the prime of his life. So 27 years, I'm just gonna call a lifetime. he spent in prison.

Wow. So he, uh, picked up the habits of his father.

He certainly did. Uh, I will say this, he never. it was never officially married multiple people. It was more, he was a, a cheater on the side. He was a, a serial cheater the side. So I think he was officially married three times, maybe four times. And there's allegations of children and, you know, like, I bet you weren't expecting this conversation to go this direction, but it's part of, I think for me, part of understanding just the full picture, of, of who, of who he is.

Yeah, I mean, again, when you think of it historically, and it's easy looking back obviously to sanitize somebody's life, and that's the one thing that you and I have never done. When we talk about historic leaders there's this, there's this messy.

 Yeah, 

Part of their lives. I think we've often described it as there's this interplay between light and [00:19:00] darkness, and clearly there's a lot of, uh, you know, great, great dark things going on in Mr.

Mandela's life over the years. So, so how does in this journey. Now he's in Rob Island, he is been in prison. How does this start to change and take a different path to the Mandela that many of us now sort of think about when 

Yeah, yeah. And this is why people focus on this part of his story so much because those who have studied him know that, you know, he went in certainly not, uh, uh, free of accusation or, or of guilt. Um, but he came out much, much different. And ironically enough, Tim, his 27, almost 30 years of being a prisoner are what actually changed him , and turned him into the leader that he became known as.

So, um, you now, you know, the cell that he lived in, um, uh, he described as if I lay on the floor, my [00:20:00] head was touching one wall and my feet were touching the other. Is that, does that sound about right?

a hundred percent. He was, a rather tall man and that cell was excruciatingly small.

Yeah, 

Um, I can remember a couple of things about that visit. One was just how absolutely small that cell was, which was just terrible. They would take the prisoners every day. They would take the prisoners out to the other side of the island where there was this brilliant white rock quarry.

And what they would do, because they wanted to just demoralize them day after day, is they would make them dig. Hole and dig all the rocks out one day and they, they would make them fill back in the hole. They just dug with the same rocks the next day and it was a repetitive cycle. And the rock on that side of the island, it's this white rock that has this almost glinting and almost [00:21:00] diamond, little bit fragments to it.

And some men went blind

from the reflection of the sun. Like when we were there, it was a sunny day. When you got on that rock face, it's like you couldn't even, you know, when you even get it's sunny and you're squinting, you can't even sort of see 'cause it's so bright. That's the way it was and excruciatingly hot.

It was a terrible, terrible place to be. And if I recall from what the gentleman said, who was a prisoner with him, who was part of the a NC by the way, is that, he said that the, the other part of it is, is the guards. It was a punishment for 

them. 

Yeah.

The guards that were sent to Robben Island, were They themselves basically 

criminals. 

Yeah. 

It was a brutal place.

So you, you mentioned a very interesting. part of his mindset. Okay. That I think evolved at Robin Island actually. 'cause you're right, the guards were miserable, by the way. Um, not all of them. He does describe like, [00:22:00] some that were, he would say maybe not civil, but less miserable than, than the others.

But they were overall miserable. Here's the mindset that I saw emerge through Robin Island. he certainly wanted to free. His fellow, the black population in South Africa to be equals with the rest of the population. So he knew there was a freedom work that was going on. I need to free my people.

I wanna be part of freeing my people. But with the guards, he actually also saw them as being enslaved themselves. So it's, I don't just want to free my people you know, and make them equal. Actually, I'm here to free you as well because you yourself are enslaved to a wicked, wicked mindset. So, although they are, they were enemies in a very real sense, he was able to see, Hey, I'm just here to free us.

And I'm, I'm here to free you. And a really interesting and moving point just to highlight that Tim, I'm kind of getting ahead of the story, but I, I think while we're talking about his relationship with the guards, a very complicated relationship. when he was released, [00:23:00] when he did become the president, the elected president of South Africa, he actually invited those guards to his inauguration and he sat them in positions of honor.

is, that kind of leads to the, I think, what he's most known for. I found that incredibly moving, so he was able to see them equally as victimized as he himself. That 

That's amazing. And Craig, I don't know if you came across this in your research or not, but the one other thing that this gentleman, and I wish I could remember his name, but I can't, one thing he told us, which was just fascinating again, and it's connected to the guards, he, he mentioned to us that a lot of these guards had.

One of the reasons why they were sent to Robben Island to be guards is that they had charges against them

Yeah.

and Mandela in a very, very one, I think smart way, but also in a compassionate way. He actually helped the guards 'cause he was a lawyer. He helped the [00:24:00] guards and wrote documents on their behalf to try to help them in court.

Yeah, 

that, is that 

that is absolutely correct. And so, um. And I should also say this, when Mandel went to prison, you said he was imprisoned with other people with the A NC. A lot of them were political prisoners there. And so they were, in a way, they were kind of Conrad in Arms and friends and and whatnot.

but yeah, their policy was if someone treats us, civilly, we will respond in kind. So we're not here to, you know, piss off guards. That doesn't help us out at all. But yeah, he actually took up some of their cases. kind of represent them in matters of law. So, yeah.

That is, isn't that an interesting olive branch, by the way? and

That's just, yeah, it's just so very fascinating. You know, I have to admit, when I went out to Rob. An island and it's a ways out. Uh, but I, you know, I've also, historically I've been to Alcatraz, the prison on Alcatraz Island. And I will say it's [00:25:00] not as far out, obviously, in the bay, uh, for San Francisco, but it's, it has the same oppressively 

evil feeling to it now.

Rob Island's bigger. So is is a bigger area, but I remember going, uh, to Alcatraz years ago and the, just the feeling you get, so, man, this has gotta just mess with your psyche. It's got a, all these things and how you'd ever find something good or redemptive in it. I, I, frankly, I don't know. I don't think I could. So,

Yeah. 

so he's there and this is all happening and he goes in there, he's this rough and ready saboteur,

so. when he recounts his journey or others do, when does this start and he starts becoming maybe a little bit different the way he is gonna look at the 

Garzas. When does this start and how does it continue and how does it take him into more of the area that we tend to 

see him? 

yeah. So it seems to start off. Kind of immediately in, in an odd [00:26:00] way, Tim, Robin Island was like a community. it's hard to, you know, fathom that. but I think he saw Robin Island as almost a template or a prototype for what society could be. And so the a NC member there, the political prisoners, even though they weren't supposed to talk, because there was obviously real concerns about.

You know, them organizing, you know, whatever jailbreaks or escapes, not that there's anywhere you can go ' cause you're on an island. But, they operated as like a leadership team there. So they talked about policies around, you know, how do we interact with the guards, uh, how do we protest, when do we protest?

It's amazing. Even in those conditions, he was very quick to talk about his legal rights and he would lodge formal complaints. To anyone that would listen. And because the law was a law, they had to listen. He put 'em in writing. He would quote the law back to them, like if they wanted to kind of punish him in a certain way or deprive him of uh, clothing or food or [00:27:00] social interaction.

So he maintained, I would say, the word that came to my mind, Tim. Was steadfastness, like a trueness to himself, like there was a trueness that didn't go away regardless of the environment that he was in. And because he was surrounded with his fellow allies, again, they just kind of built this resiliency themselves and.

A, a weird, I'll throw one weird fact, uh, about him, you know what I told you? His, his hobby at first was boxing, which really lined up to his really scrappy nature. Like, I just wanna hit something or someone, his hobby in prison, after he had served several, many, many years, there was actually gardening. So he went from boxer to gardener and he talks about how the garden became, uh, a real symbol of life for him, and also lessons in patience. And humility, you know, as you try to coax these vegetables in this brutal soil. and it seemed that actually kind of represented a softening of some of those [00:28:00] hard edges, but it didn't remove his steadfastness and his desire for true, justice.

So it's a combination of a whole bunch of things. I'm trying to, you're asking me a great question. Am I'm having trouble pinpointing. What was the moment? ' cause there 

Oh yeah. Well, you know what, again, it's, I guess maybe the, the frailty of my question is we think it's a moment, but in this case it's not a 

moment. It's, it's a season 

almost. and I think the other part of the story is, you're talking about it, is, is that it's clear that the prison is a place of. Teaching humility, redemption, something's happening in him.

And that story, that narrative is a narrative that 

exists 

in 

so 

many 

different 

people's lives. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

It's 

really, 

really fascinating.

yeah. 

but typically the prison is forced on a person in an unjust 

way or 

unjust way, but he deserved. To be incarcerated because he was a [00:29:00] saboteur,

yeah. 

and yet still in the midst of that, he gets an opportunity to find something different.

It's a very, very fascinating narrative.

it is a fascinating narrative. And, and somewhere it clicked for him. I mean, they had very clever ways of getting news from the outside world. Okay. Very, very clever ways. And then passing that news to each other, but somehow clicked on that I'm actually more powerful in prison. Than I am outside in the real world.

So there was almost, almost like a training ground. And like I said, it's almost like, I think they were trying to see this as a prototype for can we change the society? You know, if we can change this prison, we can change the society. but he actually refused at one point in time this after, I don't know how many decades now, but deep into his prison sentence.

he was offered a chance at early release and he turned it down.

Huh. 

 and I don't know if I would've done that, but he, he turned it down and, uh, uh, and I [00:30:00] think that's the moment he kind of realized I'm actually more powerful as a symbol in here than I am out there. So yeah, prison was a real interesting, proving ground for him.

So he is in prison. All this stuff is happening. The world's going on. Um, how does he end up. Eventually. So again, if you're listening in and you're listening to this story, one thing I guess I'm hoping is you're hearing maybe a different part of the story that you would've, which you might have understood about Mandela, but you're also starting to see that the Crucible that's forming him and again, I think just as, a. Point for all of us. You know, there's times where we get imprisoned in our lives, metaphorically, more than likely because of things we are not responsible for. And there's times, frankly, we get imprisoned or we get off sighted or whatever because of things we've done. But both times of being in prison hold opportunity for redemption and learning and humility to come regardless of how you got there. And so I would just encourage you whether you feel like , you're in a bit of a [00:31:00] prison not of your own making, 

or maybe you're in a prison of your own making, .

I guess it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you still could find something new and redemptive in it, and you could find a new way of looking at yourself and the world around you like Mr. Mandela did, and as the world did eventually. So how does he eventually get out of this, this hell hole called Robin Island, find his way back to the mainland, and then move into this next season of the maybe the destiny of his 

leadership? 

Yeah. So timing is everything I would say. getting cl, I don't even know how long his original sentence was. I believe he was, his sentence was cut short though. And the main reason I would say was. Probably international pressure. Okay. Now, I remember in high school, I knew the name Nelson Mandela.

He was, and this is before the internet, this is before social media. We knew, and we knew the story of apartheid in South Africa [00:32:00] as, and that's just as a young teenager, the level of international pressure, uh, sanctions on that country. Uh, I mean, my goodness, their rugby team, which factors in this story later, rugby is sacred in South Africa in particular to the white population.

they weren't allowed to compete internationally. So, you know, it's a whole bunch of international pressure. And then I would say, uh, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about, FW ler, who was the white, president of South Africa. So, you know, sometimes there's just, there's a right time where personalities kind of connect together, who would be enemies in the past, but have somehow find an allyship.

And so, he was released, in 1990. After 27 years in prison, by then he truly had become a folk hero. Okay? Truly, I mean, and not just in his country, beyond, the country's, uh, boundaries as well. 1991, he, you know, was reelected to his head of the African National Congress.

There was no [00:33:00] other option, like he just had such a presence, uh, on the global scene. And then, , in 1993, he and, uh, FWD clerk, the white president, were both given the Nobel Peace Prize. So basically it was the journey of reconciliation between these two people groups. And it wasn't just two people groups, it was more, but was well underway.

And so he just kind of moved from his leadership in the prison. To now his full, platform on the outside. You know, Tim, it, sorry to digress here. It does remind me a lot of the parallels of Winston Churchill's career, who spent most of his career in the wilderness. Disliked, not trusted, resented, ineffective.

He was just painting his little portraits in the countryside. but when his time came, it, came.

Hmm. Well, and that's a really good reminder all of us. 'cause you know, we have a sense, again, we, we, You know, I often say we draw such a ridiculously straight line from where we are to where we wanna be, or [00:34:00] from the problem we're trying to solve to its solution. We just draw this straight line. And none of these men or women's lives who were these great leaders?

We've talked about men, we've talked about women over the years. We've talked about leaders. it's just not a straight path. Of course, it's not for any of us. And sometimes I think the problem is when it's not a straight path, we can get lost in it and think there's something wrong. But that's just the way life is.

There are no straight 

rivers. There's no path that just goes from A to B, just simply. So he ends up getting elected 

eventually. And so then now he's in power, so now

he, I mean this is a massive turn. 

tip. Tim. 

now the 

guy. 

was once the prisoner of the state. Now he's 

Yeah. 

of state. 

Talk about a turnaround. Yeah. He's now in power.

So now he can basically, he can do whatever he wants to do now.

I mean, he, he can, and he can't, it's, it's a democratic country, but he could do lots of different things. So you alluded to [00:35:00] the fact that he takes a unique approach somehow and doesn't carry this. This thing around, with him to punish

his oppressors.

Yeah. And I say, you know, I said Robin Island is probably what he's most known for. And it, it certainly is. it's his legacy that we're about to kind of move into that, I think, which I find to be the most, um, moving, I guess. so after decades, uh, in prison and he, , and he gets elected and he, he gets, you know, that power, he decides that.

Uh, there's, there's too many examples of the oppressed getting liberated and then becoming the oppressor and seeking vengeance, and he charted a new path forward. And so the first thing he did, to, we'll, we'll call 'em political enemies, you know, the, the oppressors, uh, is he made like, he, he insisted on bringing them into his cabinet.

So I'm in now in power. I don't just want it to be my [00:36:00] people, I want you in here as well. So he brought his political adversaries. Into the cabinet in positions of influence, including FW de clerk, who was the president to help facilitate the end of our prior time. He was his vice president. So his real legacy is he was able, his last role was, I think, forgiver.

He was able not just to forgive the guards, and the system, but he was also able to, model a path forward for the rest of the population. And I think that is truly, truly unique. That is, that's probably what he's known for and upheld for. That's why there's monuments of him, you know, uh, outside Westminster.

and that's why, you know, roads are, are named after. Like, it, it's that ability to somehow forgive and see your former enemies as allies. And I find that incredibly challenging and moving.

Yeah. That is challenging. 'cause you think you've got all that power now and you can do, I mean, again, he could have easily had these people charged. He could have had them in prison. [00:37:00] You know, I hate to say, I mean, not to get outside with some of my listeners, but you know, maybe, maybe modern leaders could take a lesson from this in the world and maybe even in North America about how, yeah, you know what, we get treated wrongly, but how we respond when we get in or back in power says a 

lot. So it's really interesting because he probably, he would've felt justified. He would've had every Right. and you know, I think it goes back to this that, you know, when we think of vengeance or, or revenge, probably better word, I think of the, the Shakespearean play where we're talking about the pound of flesh.

Yeah.

Which is a really interesting, I think it might be Othello actually where this, this comes from could be wrong in the play, but I think so. And it's this idea that you're gonna get your revenge and , in the play, you know, the one who's harmed has an opportunity to take revenge or get a pound of flush [00:38:00] from the person who them. But the way it was gonna work is they would get one strike with their sword, and then they would measure the flesh. They cut off them, and if it was not equal to exactly a pound, then the same punishment would be extracted on them. and it's a really interesting, I mean, I love Shakespeare, but, but think about that because this is, the problem is, is that you just never get a pound.

Hmm.

and you also can't, walk for yourself if, if the rest of your life is wielding a sword to get revenge. 

You are so bound up to the past that you can't actually be free. 

Yeah. 

Yeah.

And, and again, if you're listening in, maybe that's the thing you gotta ask yourself. I mean, you've got some people in your life maybe that have harmed you, done you wrong in massive ways. But it, the question is, what does it mean to get a pound of flesh and [00:39:00] will it be too much? And could you walk in a different. Spirit is wi, clearly in which Mr. Mandela walks. It's, it's a challenge to all of us, I mean, and to invite your enemies into your cabinet.

Yeah. 

it's ridiculous really when you 

think 

Yeah. It's um. Well said. It's, and that's, I think, again, that's what I find most, challenging and moving about his story. there's, you know, he, when he did take office, he focused obviously on the hard business of government, you know, the same thing that every government focused on.

How do we run our country? but he really obviously put a lot of focus on reconciliation. Um, recognizing that there was a lot of deep, deep, deep pain, hatred, contempt, and that if the country was to move forward, you know, as a nation and also as individuals, they needed to address that. So he set up, with another one of my heroes, Bishop Desmond Tutu, the Truth and Reconciliation, commission.

And that basically offered amnesty for anyone who committed crimes under [00:40:00] certain criteria, like kind of, uh, apartheid era crimes. if you just kind of come, confess, tell everything, you'll be granted amnesty. There's some nuances to that, of course. but that was, I mean, I've seen clips of it by the way.

I've watched, I've seen testimonials of it. Uh, it was all very public. It's horrible to watch, because they would demonstrate some of the, uh, guards, police officers, secret service, military officers would demonstrate in court what they would do, to people that they caught. It's painful to watch, but, uh.

The level of courage and conviction that he had to say, this is, this is a necessary pain we have to go through collectively as a group. Um.

Wow, that's interesting. And you know, Craig, as you say that it's an interesting thing about forgiveness is even as we're talking about this and the conversation sort of dances into this, so, you know, think about it's sort of a knee-jerk reaction. Sometimes Somebody's done something that offends you.

You know, they, they realize it and they wanna apologize. And they say, I'm sorry. And we say, oh, no, no, you don't. That's that. It's [00:41:00] no big deal. Or you don't have no, no, you're, you don't have to say that. But actually. They do have to say it and we have to receive it,

Yeah.

Yes, 

Absolutely. 

acknowledging it and then so, so forgiveness to truly forgive and move on.

It's not about forgetting 'cause you can't forget, but it is actually about becoming awakened and acknowledging it,

Yeah.

not forgetting it, 

acknowledging it, bringing it up in front and owning it. Then choosing in the light of being fully awake to 

it, 

Yeah.

to choose to say, I forgive you. Let's move on. That is really, really ridiculously 

hard. 

yeah. And 

That's hard stuff.

it, it's hard stuff. And uh, you know, and that's why we talk about him. 'cause I think he truly was so unique in that regards of, uh, you know, not just changing a country, but changing himself. And, [00:42:00] uh, there, there, there's one anecdote. If, if you don't mind, I wanted to kind of share from his story.

And, um, I'm gonna share this 'cause because you can see it on YouTube. it's a very, very moving clip. , 1995, world Rugby Championship. And I told you rugby was very sacred to South Africans. Okay. But only to half of the population. Okay. It was very much a symbol of apartheid. Okay. That green uniform, uh, they call it the spring balk uniform was very much a symbol of a apartheid.

And so white players, white coaching staff, white, you know, like, it just, so the black population rightfully saw that as almost like. Like a hateful thing. The existence of rugby, in South Africa is almost a sign of, of just hate. Um, but in the final match on South African soil, after they've been exiled for not being allowed to compete for several years, the team actually won.

And there's a beautiful moment. I, you know, I just recommend people take a look at it where Nelson Mandela dressed and [00:43:00] listen to this, dressed in the rugby uniform, the symbol of apartheid with the green shirt. Shaking hands of the captain saying, thank you for what you've done for our country. And I think that is so moving.

 cause it just represents, um, obviously had a good sense for symbolism, but it just represents the humility and the commitment. And you can see the player saying Thank you for what you've done for a country. Like it's moving. I know. Um. I, I heard one, fan say when I saw Nelson Mandela and the captain of the rugby team shaking hands, I knew our country was gonna be okay.

And I only bring that up ' cause I just think it's such a, good, it's good for the soul, it's good for the soul to, to see, uh, demonstrations of radical love and forgiveness in action.

Wow, that's powerful. So listeners, you know that when Craig and I dive into these things, you know, we we're seeing lessons maybe for leaders and maybe if you're a leader, you see some [00:44:00] leadership lessons in here. If you're just a human, you're seeing some human lessons in here about.

Suffering and pain and redemption and revenge and forgiveness and what it means to actually act in different ways to the way you've known all your life. You know, Craig, it's interesting. I think I, I was in an airport recently. I was coming back from a business trip and I was. In an airport lounge and there was, uh, an older gentleman sitting at the table just across from me or next to me, and I, I've been in South Africa enough and in Africa enough that I.

You know, sometimes people mistake South African accents for other parts of the

world, like Australian, et cetera. I can usually pick him out. I mention to him and I said, sounds like you're so from South Africa. And he said yes. And he was an older gentleman and we got into an in very interesting conversation.

He was on his way back. He's American now. He is on his way back to South Africa. 'cause his mom was ill. And it was interesting [00:45:00] because he just out of the blue started talking about. How great a man Nelson Mandela was. 

He also said, which is interesting, he said, I think if Nelson Mandela was alive today, he would be very sad 

about where we are 

today. 

very much so.

And you know, it's just interesting. But it was, and he was a white South African, obviously quite well off. and yet the way he talked about Mandela. The way he talked about what Mandela did and how he responded, you could still see that it had a deep and deep emotional and psychological and practical application and effect in this man's life.

He was probably in his early seventies, 

white. 

Yeah,

You know, south African living in the States. And so I just remember leaving that conversation [00:46:00] thinking, wow, what a rippling effect like. The legacy of, of Mandela and the impact. And yes, he was a messy character like we all are. And I think that's the other part of these stories is, you know, we're, you know, only in fairytales and folklore and, reimagined history, which is sort of fake news.

Um, you know, are all of these leaders pristine? And they never did anything in

Yeah.

wrong. But Mandela's a complicated man like all these people, 

and yet he. It's trying to figure out what it looks like and I think the quintessential piece to the story as you're talking about it is, you know, it's one thing about who you are when you have no power. It's another thing when you have all the power.

Yeah.

I mean, that is the measure because you know, some of us rail against lots of things, but we don't have the power.

Mm-hmm. 

But the question here is, if you get the power, then who are you? Yeah,

Yeah.

and I think that's a good question for all of us to consider, [00:47:00] whether we're in leadership or in our families.

You know, it's not who you are when you feel powerless,

it's who you are and how you treat people when you have all of the power.

 That is a really fascinating sort of story within this, and it's a challenge because man, oh man, I think, what do they say about power, power? Corrupt syn.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

Yeah. 

I suppose in this case, that's not quite the 

truth. 

yeah. I power certainly, I think reveals what's really in there within us, and, uh, , I think it probably revealed, like, I wonder what, a young boxer Nelson Mandela would do if he was in power at that age versus the post Robin Island. Nelson Mandela did, 

Yeah, 

I think he would've had two different expressions of power, 

I totally agree. Yeah. And you Can see the wisdom that grew in his life over time. I, I once heard somebody say, [00:48:00] wisdom is what you learn after you think you know it all.

That's great.

And, uh, yeah. Wisdom is what you learn after you think you know it all. And so you see, you see maybe a measure of wisdom come and, and again, if you're listening in, uh, I don't know how you ought to apply this conversation, that's up to you.

But, but I will say to you listeners that I think some of us have stories in our life where we've been wronged by others or felt wronged or we, and then we get in offside into prison, or we've done something ourselves and we've been off sided. Don't lose hope in the midst of it.

There is still opportunity, there's legacy still to be written it, you know, it, it is not the absence of difficulty and frankly fucking up that that makes you destined for greatness. It more than likely is the presence of that. 

And then what you do with that, and then what you do as you get on the other side of that, that's probably the bigger thing.

So, Craig, listen, I'm gonna give you the last word on this. So you've been studying [00:49:00] Mandela, you've been diving in, I imagine you're gonna. Eventually, if you haven't already, you're gonna write something and it's gonna get on your website, which I think is history unfurled.com.

So at the end of all this research, 

you know, which isn't just clinical or scientific in nature, if there was one thing that you could say that's sort of you take from this narrative that you think is an important lesson or idea for you to take and put it into Craig Min's life, what is it?

the story isn't over. There is more chapters yet to be written about your life.

Hmm.

that's it. I just, I go back, to the day in and day at night of him sleeping on that cold floor wondering if this is it. And for me, you know, I can't identify what living in a real prison, but I, I can't identify with wondering, like, is is this it, referencing my, my own kind of life and experiences And, That's what I take away from him, that there are still [00:50:00] more chapters to be written and they're pretty exciting.

Absolutely. A great way to wrap things up. Craig, thank you again for your time and thank you for the countless hours. Many, many hours, possibly hundreds of hours that you put into researching people's lives, learning lessons, and bringing them back to people now. It's such a great gift and I appreciate this is something that's important to you and you're, you have a passion for it.

'cause I think it is so important. But I also appreciate that you don't whitewash. The historic figures that we're talking about. you know, because I think that's a problem. History. Unfortunately, when we, we look back in history, sometimes we have a way of eradicating all the bad and then the narrative teller tells it in a way that's only good for them.

Um, I like the fact that we have biographies that don't do that. I like the fact that you are a researcher that is always looking into the reality, not the myth. But the true reality of a person's lives and not needing to shy away [00:51:00] from it to find lessons that are beneficial. And again, if you listened in, you listened in for a reason, I always say that.

Thanks for joining us. do me a favor. As you contemplate Mr. Mandela's life, maybe do some more research. Just ask yourself, what does this mean to you? And as you uncork it in your life, let Craig and I know what you're doing. You can email me@timatunmodified.com or you can DM me. Uh, you can find Craig Min on social media.

That's. M-I-N-C-H-I-N. Got it right,

got it right? Yes. 

and it is history unfurled.com. Craig, thanks for your time. 

Thank 

you. 

a great day. Cheers.