OUR FUTURE is YOUR CHOICE: UNCORKED with DIANE OSGOOD

What do you do when the very topic that threatens all of us is also the one that divides us the most? 

Climate change has become a lightning rod—sparking passion, igniting debates, and often leaving us stuck in the storm. In this episode, Tim Windsor UNCORKS a bold and brutally honest conversation with climate economist Diane Osgood about a truth many avoid: this isn’t just about changing lightbulbs or using metal straws — it’s about rethinking the system we all live in and the role each of us plays in it.

Diane has spent over 30 years helping Fortune 100 companies develop products and strategies that benefit people and the planet, and she doesn’t indulge in greenwashed fairy tales. Together, we grapple with the tension between the individual and the systemic—the power of daily choices and the impact of large-scale infrastructure changes—and how these forces can clash to drive meaningful change. She brings clarity, science, and reason to a topic often overwhelmed by noise and outrage, showing us how to stop being passive spectators of the problem and become active citizens on this spinning ball of dirt we all depend on.

You will leave this episode equipped with practical ways to reduce your footprint without shrinking your life—from Meatless Mondays and Thankful Thursdays to Synthetic-Free Saturdays. You’ll discover how your vote, your voice, your purchases, and your partnerships can create real planetary impact—and why staying informed, staying involved, and refusing to outsource your responsibility for the air we breathe and the water we drink may be the most radical and hopeful act of all. This conversation will challenge you, provoke you, and—if you allow it—transform you.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

TRANSCRIPTION:

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

What do you do when the very topic that threatens all of us is the one that divides us the most? Climate change is that kind of lightning rod. IT index passion sparks division, and often leaves people paralyzed in the middle of the storm. Some argue it's all about what you buy, how you travel, the small choices you make.

Others insists it's about governments, industries, infrastructure, making massive shifts. Who's right? Maybe both. And that's the exact tension we're gonna need to face head on, and we're gonna face head on in this conversation today. We'll talk about this hard truth. The climate fight isn't just about swapping out light bulbs.

It's about the seemingly insignificant, but maybe not so insignificant choices each of us makes every day. But it's also about renewable grids, how we power cars and trucks, ships and planes running on cleaner fuels. All of these big [00:01:00] shifts, maybe some small shifts, seemingly at times beyond the reach of individuals, but hopefully not beyond our collective influence.

Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Unmodified podcast. It is Climate Week 2025, and I'm Tim WinDor, and today my guest on the show once again is Diane Osgood. Diane, welcome back to the show.

Thank you. Very glad to be here.

Uh, it's gonna be great. I, if you hadn't listened to the first conversation a bit about Diane, and then I'll, I'll give a little, uh, plug for our last conversation.

But for over 30 years, Diane has helped Fortune 100 companies create products that are better for the planet and for all people. Integrating sustainability into everything that they do. Set ambitious goals, develop strategies, and bring those goals into the real world and bring 'em to life. And she is a climate economist, which will be an interesting shape on this conversation.

Now, my first conversation with Dan was about the demand side of sustainability. It was episode number 1 73. It was entitled, put Your Money Where your Values are. It was. Phenomenal [00:02:00] conversation. And if you haven't listened to that one, you need to queue it up in your podcast listening rotation and listen to it.

Next. Shameless plug for my podcast. Ah, I'll do it anyways. So of course this is an uncork conversation, Diane. And so I love to uncorked drink with my guests. So today it's uh, afternoon, three o'clock. I'm having a coffee. What are you having?

I am having a green tea from one of my favorite tea producers up in Milwaukee, Rishi

Awesome. 

nice cup of green

tea. 

gotta like green tea and I'm gonna have a cup of coffee and get energized for the conversation. So let's start the conversation here, Diane, and again, thanks so much for coming on my show and having that conversation that we had in the past. It was a brilliant conversation. I loved it.

It was challenging. It was around the book that you had written and it was just released at the time. Your shopping superpower, what a. Book again, if you haven't heard about that book, if you haven't bought it yet, you need to find it. You can find it. Amazon, all places that sell books, you need to get that book.

But today the conversation is around climate change. It is climate [00:03:00] weak. So help me understand, let's just start here. So when we use the term climate change, when we say climate change, what do we really mean?

So I'm gonna back up and remind us that we are floating on a blob of dirt that is floating in a very large universe. And that blob of dirt. Our, our beloved planet is a living organism that is very, very complex and there are multiple sets of biochemical interactions that go on that keep this place in a condition that we humans and all the species that we know can survive.

That means different types of gases. That means different types of liquids. And that also means a certain range of average temperature of the temperature on the planet, because if it gets way hot or way cold, some of us and our fellow species aren't gonna make it. And we know historically, over time that has happened, you know, the Ice Age and things like that, which we all probably, vaguely remember from [00:04:00] school.

And so what's happening now through a force of, some of these major biochemical systems. Becoming, , too hot. So there's too much, , what we call greenhouse gases and there's ocean acidification and there's melting of the related and interrelated melting of the ice sheets. What's happening is the temperature of the entire planet is increasing, and that's why we talk about global warming.

It is technically correct, but we may experience that as something of the opposite. It may be much harsher winters or sea level rise. I mean more flooding. It may not feel like, you know, one or two degrees warmer. That kind of sounds like a good thing, especially to live up in the north. But it sets off a, a chain of reactions that impacts the entire climate.

And so while some places are getting hotter, others are getting colder, but what the most important thing is we're having these big swings of, [00:05:00] temperatures. So that's it in a super nutshell.

That is a good super nutshell by the way. And I like it. That bakes it down for me so I can get my head around it. 'cause it is a complex issue and when I think about this issue and I. I'm trying to get my head around it. You know, I do ask questions like, okay, you know, we have, uh, we've been keeping records for x amount of years, and so we have records over a certain amount of years, but of course not over the millennia, uh, that the, earth has been here and we've been able to inhabit it.

Or maybe a time when we couldn't and all that happens. So we have this sense that there are things changing. Right. I think I, it would be hard to convince yourself that that's not true. Although some people ha are convincing themselves that nothing's changing. It's pretty clear to me. I'm not that smart.

But something's changing for sure in the area where I live. For instance, uh, you know, we get, way less snow than we used to for sure, although we had a good Canadian winter last year. But we, things are changing. Our, our temperatures seem to be rising. We get much hotter than we used to, and we have massive [00:06:00] swings.

I mean, in the area where out live in Canada, we could be, we can be a hundred degrees Fahrenheit with a hundred percent humidity in the summer, and we could be, frankly like minus 20 in the winter. So we have, we do have these massive fluctuations. It's pretty clear to me that something's changing. I don't really understand it all.

Um, I would maybe like to bury my head in the sand and pretend that I don't really realize it's happening, or I might want to convince myself that I don't have any contribution that's making this happen. Or that could fix it. So how does one sort of go from the. This big issue that just seems absolutely untouchable by the average person, and how do we start approaching it in a way as individuals and collectively that we can, uh, orientate ourself towards a positive response.

So it's a, climate change is a systemic issue, right? It, It's driven by. inputs into the environment that come about because of how our economic [00:07:00] systems, our social systems, , our cultural systems operate. And so it feels rightly so, like it's out there. It's happening to us and with us, but we're not really driving it because it's an entire system.

Like when, when the industrial revolution happened and we started using combustible engine and fossil fuels became used, no one set out to provoke climate change. It's just an unattended consequence of that leap in economic development that we are the direct beneficiaries of. We have longer life expectancy than pre-industrial revolution.

We work very different hours doing very different things than pre-industrial revolution. And not just to blame industrial revolution 'cause it's more complex than that, but that's a major driver. We also now have the environmental consequences of having been reliant on fossil fuels, having been reliant on other types of production and other types of, food systems that have [00:08:00] resulted in.

What I would say is a compromised, set of planetary biophysical boundaries. So we use this concept of planetary boundaries. That looks not just at carbon and climate, but also looks at, as I mentioned before, acid, the acidification of the oceans. Um, the demise of biodiversity and, and other things that are really important to keep this blob of, dirt in the universe functioning so that we can thrive.

So it's a systems issue, but like in any system, we all have agency as individuals and I'm at the point where. I am framing it as how can I be a responsible citizen within that system as kind of a a, a system citizen as it is. And it's the same as being a citizen of any country, right? That any country needs an informed citizenry that votes.

Behaves well. And so if we [00:09:00] compare that basic framework of being a citizen to being a citizen in the system for climate, it's the same. We need to vote for leaders who are gonna work on policy and bring in policy that support efforts to mitigate climate risk and stop climate change. accelerating.

We need to make sure that our individual behaviors are sufficient or are the best that we can do, given our circumstances, and we need to stay informed about what's happening, , and not be surprised therefore, that, for example, when. The housing industry in Florida has a really hard time getting housing insurance, and that needs to be part of the discourse, but you can't have the discourse unless you're educated about the topic.

You need to stay informed, and I think that's the part that has often been missed in in some of these conversations.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and by the way, I, I totally agree with that and I think, as I said in my opening, I think one of the challenges is that this is such a [00:10:00] polarizing discussion. And I think what happens sometimes is that when somebody maybe holds a counter opinion than than I do or someone else does in this conversation.

We don't do a great job at holding tension anymore in our culture to be, have, have conversations. We sort of check outta that conversation, say, I don't agree with that. I don't believe it, therefore I'm not even gonna entertain it. And that's part of the problem. And so again, if you're listening, I just really wanna encourage you, if we're starting to move this conversation or this conversation's moving in a direction where you're saying, ah, I don't know if I want to go there.

Do me a favor. Just reign in your horses for a second and just, just stick with it and just listen. You know, we can debate this offline. You can DM me, you can do whatever you want, but, just listen to the conversation and let it be a provocateur. Let it challenge you, let it challenge your thinking.

You might agree with everything, Diane ultimately. Proposes in this conversation, which is fine, or you might fundamentally disagree with everything she says, that's fine too. We have to be able to [00:11:00] hold tension and have conversation because if we don't, we're never gonna find a, better place on this.

And that, that to me is the strange thing. I mean, I was in a conversation recently, I was telling somebody I was gonna do this conversation with you. Um, I will tell you, I didn't really realize, uh, that I was gonna step all in the middle of this seismic shift in the room when I had said, Hey, uh, Diane's gonna come back to my show and we're gonna talk about climate change.

And oh man, I found out, oh, okay boy, we don't maintain tension very well in these conversations. So that's partly why I love having the conversation. And I do think that we have agency. I do think that we convince ourselves we don't, and again, if we think this is a problem just in another part of the world, we're never gonna solve it.

That is a question that came up in the conversation that I had in the room when I announced I was gonna have this conversation. And that is, and I'd love to sort of wrestle this with you, you know, the proposition of the conversation was, well, who really cares? Because for instance, Canada, let's look at Canada.

Canada we're such [00:12:00] a small population and uh, what can we really do about climate change? And so the conversation my Canadian friends was, look, we're a 40 something million people. Like really? What can we do? We got these massive emerging economies, India, China, all this kind of stuff, you know, and they're polluters and what can we really do?

And so then the proposition was for the this person, ah, there's nothing to do for us. So how do you enter into the conversation when you're talking with somebody who might have that kind of viewpoint?

I think it depends on how you wanna show up in life. Part of it, like I am, I'm the kind of person that wakes up and goes, okay, there's issues out there. What can I do to help? Help address them. Not everybody's that way, and that's fine. That's absolutely fine. What I wanna stress is the importance of staying informed.

Even if you feel like none of my choices are gonna matter, which I would disagree with, but if that's what your your perspective is, then at least stay informed because you [00:13:00] don't wanna get kicked by it when you could have been informed. So I'm, you know, I mentioned earlier housing insurance. It's getting harder and harder to get housing insurance in many parts of the US.

I don't know yet about Canada, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same. There's a reason, right? It's water, it's flooding, it's hurricanes, it's drought, it's fire, and those things are directly related. And so it behooves all of us to go, okay, well what can we do? Because, yes, it's a systems issue, but it comes back to me being a citizen and to realize that we're citizens of this entire place.

Not just Canada, not just the us. We're citizens of a globe that's functioning together. And yes, what someone does in some of the countries mentioned does impact us, but we impact them as well.

Yeah. There's one Earth and we're all, we're all on this be of dirt, as you said.

Yeah. And, and, and I wouldn't wanna get into the competition of who admits [00:14:00] more or makes more, you know, per, per capita. It's just, it's not helpful. And it's also probably not really gonna give you the answers you want.

No, I agree. So one of the ways we can exercise our, our good Is to understand that we have the power and a democracy of who we vote for, the policies that they represent and voting for people who ultimately we believe might advance policies that would be most beneficial for this particular issue have the most positive benefit.

What other things can the average, what's the average, Tim? What can the average Tim guy do to really. Understand that I do have some impact and I could do a few things and yep. People gotta work on the big things like big infrastructure and big policy, but what are the sort of the things that I can start to focus on beyond just using my voice to make sure I'm electing people that would have this issue at the forefront of their consideration.

Yeah, first thing, stay informed and, you know, [00:15:00] check your sources, but also just keep up with it. What, what's being found? I mean, they just, another ice sheet just fell into the ocean and up on the arctic. And, and what does that actually mean? Well, that's important because it's increasing sea level rise and as we have increased sea level rise and warmer oceans, we're gonna have more hurricanes.

Just like understanding the basics of it. I think is. Important because then we're operating from a basis of, knowledge. And you can disagree with parts of the science, but science is science and, the data are fairly convincing. I mean, they're terribly convincing to me and there's great consensus on most of the data.

The second thing is what's within your, your sphere of. Influence and your sphere of control. I always start where I have direct control. What do I have direct control over what I buy.

Mm-hmm.

And that to me is a form of voting. When I'm buying something, I'm voting for the type of world I want. It doesn't matter if it's a stick of gum or a new [00:16:00] car, I'm sending a message into the market.

Give me more of this. At the same quality, the same price. Same color, because that's how the market works in a market economy. And when we acknowledge that that is our vote for the world, the future world, we want then reflect on, is that really the future I want? And start to make changes that are manageable.

That's where being informed matters because some changes are gonna have a larger impact than others. And this is where disagreements happen and that's healthy. In general, food production is about 30% of the drivers of climate change, of the greenhouse gases that provoke climate change. So food's a pretty good place to start.

Apparel, 7%. Well, you don't need to eat apparel to live. So maybe that's somewhere where I can make some changes because [00:17:00] it is not as life critical, as food. But I can make some changes in the food, of course, how you move yourself and, transportation. But there, that starts to get tricky because you're.

If you're not living an area with great public transport, if you live in a rural area, there's these other constraints that become engaged with the whole system. And there you don't have direct control over it. So I start, where do I have direct control, where I spend my money? And then where do I have influence?

So on the influence sector, yeah, let your community know you want more public transportation or a different sort of transportation. engage with your local. Governance and your community associations to share tools instead of buying tools. There's all sorts of kind of community things you can do, where you can have influence, but that simple model of control versus influence is where I start.

Makes sense. So let's, let's go back, let's tuck into the food and apparel for a second. So, [00:18:00] so let's say I decide as a result of the information I'm receiving and because I'm trying to be informed, I'm staying informed and now I'm informing myself and that information is challenging me. The education and understanding is provoking me to say, I don't wanna ignore it, I wanna do something.

So let's just, let's start with the food thing. 'cause the food is an area where it's a big contributor, but it also is a necessity for me every day. So how do my choices regarding the food I buy or where I buy it from, you know, it, it might be simple, but I think it's important to understand what impact do they actually have on climate.

So when we look at the, um, impacts of food, there's like the actual production, the farming of it. There's the question of was land, was forest cleared to plant that crop? And then how much went into transport. And then just a little tiny sliver is actually the packaging and the retail of it. [00:19:00] But the big part of the impact comes from how it was actually produced.

Was it, you know, how it was grown, and then how far did it have to be transported in under what conditions? So as a, , Full disclosure, someone who kind of thinks chocolate is one of the five necessary foods in life. I was pretty shocked recently 'cause I've, I've been doing some calculations, you know, that my daily habit of chocolate actually comes with a pretty extensive footprint because right now forests are being cleared to plant more cocoa.

And of course it's mostly air freighted.

Hmm.

You know, we don't, we don't grow cocoa in North America, so. I'm now behooved to try to find chocolate that's grown closer. So I will focus on trying to source from Central America, which is you just, it's my thing. I don't expect anybody else to ever do that.

But anyway, so just to get back to , the impact of food comes from how it's produced, like the farming mechanism was land cleared for it, and then [00:20:00] the transport. And if you look at all of that, basically red meat. Is pretty much top of , the line in terms of being a carbon hog and, and particularly dairy because of they fart.

Now, there's a lot of good work in reducing the impact that cattle have and, uh, sheep to some extent. But right now your conventionally raised cow, your piece of steak is by far. Double or triple by triple easily almost any other food source in terms of carbon impact.

Wow.

The good news is regenerative farming is reducing that.

So here's what I recommend. We've all heard about Meatless Monday. It's a bit of a, meme out there. I really support Meatless Monday and I really support Thankful Thursday. Two days a week, just avoid meat. [00:21:00] You know, there's all sorts of options for you out there two days a week.

And that will really reduce it. Also, just getting, you know, into the idea, experiment a little bit. Have fun with it. And when you do choose to buy red meat, really try to find regenerative agriculture. It's hard to find. But when we go back to that supply and demand question. The more we look for it, the more we buy it.

We're voting that that's the future we want.

Yeah. Yeah. We, listen, we're broadcasting a certain energy into the universe and, you know, companies are very attenuated to the consumer energy and they will flow and adapt and more of their business towards the energy of consumers. I mean, I think this is the way it works. So we, we have more power.

And, and you know, you pointed out in your book, obviously we have more power than we. Understand or maybe wanna believe in any given day. it's a collective sum of all of these choices that we make as [00:22:00] individuals that could actually add up to something quite significant.

Yeah. And you know, in the, in the era of AI and big data. We're really tracked. our votes almost get a megaphone, right? Because companies really hear it. It's still one vote, but it's, it's amplified. They really, can hear it now in, in a way that's, um, more immediate than it has been in the past.

I

So we got, we got Meatless Mondays and we've got Thankful Thursdays. Like, I like tho, I like those two. So, so those, again, by the way, it might even be better for our health generally if we didn't eat so much red meat. So that's good too. We get a side benefit there. So, that's a choice we could make on the food side.

So

Yeah. And one more choice on the food side. Um, to make a nice triplet by seasonal fruits and vegetables. So fruits and vegetables. Great for your health. Most places grow something somewhere locally because if you are importing and it's being air transported, it's just unnecessary in my book.

Um, you know, the occasional treat great, but don't [00:23:00] make it a habit. Really focus on seasonal because a third of the footprint of your fruit and vegetables is the transport. So if you can buy by seasonal, it's great. And it's just, again, it becomes a new habit. It becomes a new way of trying something new.

Um, you know, like, what's a ru Tobago? What can I do with it? Um,

Yeah,

make it a challenge and AI will be really happy

to give you some good recipes.

Well, you know, it's kind of funny. My wife and I were reflecting on this recently. We were, you know, we, we live in an area of Canada, in, uh, in Ontario, which is near Niagara. And Niagara is a massive fruit growing area. We have a very, very amazing fruit industry there.

And you know, we were reflecting on the fact that. When we were younger, you know, we're not as young as we were. We didn't have things in certain seasons, you know, we didn't have strawberries in the middle of winter. We never saw them in a store when I was a kid.

Uh, you know, we got 'em in the summer. We never had. Corn on the cob, uh, until it came [00:24:00] from our fields. You know, in our communities there were so many things that the seasonality of the fruits and vegetables we, we grew and we grew up understanding. That's just the way it was. And then of course, we got bigger and batter and bolder as consumers and demanded certain things.

And we created these massive industries. And of course, now, as you said, they air freight all of our stuff in from anywhere because we want our strawberries. When we want our strawberries, we. Tend to not realize and we don't really calculate the impact. And so again, maybe part of the conversation, again, if you're listening in, I always say you're listening for a reason, you know, in, in a crafty way, maybe a pesky way.

I would love for you to stay with this conversation and remove some of your excuses. See. Pretending you don't know becomes an easy excuse. When you have knowledge, it also becomes a provocateur because you can't really deny it anymore. And so, you know, it's a simple idea. But if those of you who are old or a little bit older like I am, um, you know, you, you know that years ago we didn't have certain things.

And maybe that's [00:25:00] just part of just saying, Hey, we gotta go back to some limitations and maybe live within certain constraints for the benefit of something bigger. And maybe it's the benefit of my grandchildren. Maybe that's what I need to think about.

Yeah, and see, I think it's an advantage. Like, I like special things. I like making an event out of something, right? I'm always up for a little party. I'm always up for like, Ooh, that's, you know,

so-and-so arrived.

Well, that so and so is tomato season. Right.

Like, oh, it's

tomato season. Yay.

Right? And like

the strawberries are in or fresh beet root.

Right. And we lose that excitement when we have it all year round.

we we do.

And I've gone back

to that sense of.

Yeah.

total joy out of like, ooh, the asparagus is in. Right.

Yeah.

I, I,

and I'd lost that for a while because [00:26:00] I used to buy asparagus whenever I wanted it. And now I pay attention and I just buy it when it's in, you know, I live in the state of Illinois.

it grows in, you know, all of May and June, two months.

and it's,

and I love asparagus, so Good. And you know, the other thing about it is I think if we're really honest with ourselves, the other thing too is. When we get stuff outta season, and it comes from a long way. I don't think it tastes very good.

Oh, I don't I feel like it, it,

it's lost. It lost everything.

Like, you know, sometimes you get a tomato and you're like, that does not even taste or look like one, it's not as, what's going on here? So, you know what? I think we know better. We can make better choices. I like this is a good challenge, but it's attainable, which is good. Let's go to a apparel now. Clothing.

So clothing has an impact on the environment, on the, climate. Um. How do we make some small better choices? Is there a, is there a shirtless Saturday here? What are we, what do we got?

What do we got? We've got shirtless Saturday. What do we got now, Diane?

So

[00:27:00] apparel is

about seven to 9% depends on, on the calculation for provoking greenhouse gases. And it comes from the fact that we tend to replenish our wardrobes at a pretty rapid pace, fast fashion, and it's pretty destructive. For two reasons. The, well, three reasons, the volume, like the production volume is very high, so we're just turning more material into cloth factories, produce it, ship it, wear it, and then we have to get rid of it at the end, and that waste stream is becoming or is a very significant problem.

The second issue is most fabrics now have polyester or a synthetic woven in acrylic or some sort of synthetic, which is fossil fuels. They're integrated because they're less expensive. Some would argue because of texture and drape and all that kind [00:28:00] of stuff. It's largely used because it's a cheaper form of creating fabric.

It's basically plastic in just a fancy form. And that comes from fossil fuels. The longer term issue is it doesn't biodegrade and it can't be as easily recycled. Not right, not yet. There's only one or two places in the world that can recycle mixed fabrics, and so it's harder to get ahold of it also doesn't wear as well.

But that's, that's more of an opinion than a, based fact. And so my rule of thumb is. Uh, by durable, like something that you're gonna wear for a long time, that's gonna last and buy when at all possible. Only natural fibers. So cotton, wool, silk, don't buy blends. Takes a lot to look. And it's more expensive again, because the, the fossil [00:29:00] fuel base, the synthetics are much less expensive.

And so you end up upping the cost of your, item if you're gonna buy new clothes, but it's gonna last longer. Now there's so many options for buying secondhand, for renting, for peer-to-peer lending. I mean, if you've got a big wardrobe full of clothes you're not wearing, get 'em on the peer-to-peer market and make some money lending them to, to other people.

Right. give those clothes a second life and, and create. It's like the Airbnb for your clothes.

say I, I, I have to admit, I don't think I've ever heard of this. Hold on a second. The guy, let's just pause for a second here. There is a lending market for close.

 Absolutely

I didn't even know this man. I, I, I'm informed now. I now you did it to me again, Diane. I don't have an excuse. 'cause now I'm informed.

Right. So you can turn your existing wardrobe, you know, or your tools or anything into a peer-to-peer lending opportunity. And some of them are incredibly sophisticated [00:30:00] where they. Clean the clothes for you. I mean, you, you really can choose your level of service. It's, it's becoming rapidly, very, very, um.

sophisticated, you know, for party where basically there's no need to ever buy another item of clothing for a fancy occasion because you're only gonna wear it once. So why, why not rent it and you can rent it from somebody else who's trying to put their themselves through college or you know, or just earn an extra buck.

Right? So there are more creative ways to get that little flare you like, right? Not everybody likes to wear the same blue shirt like I do. I get that. There are ways to, to shop secondhand, to to rent, and it's just not necessary. It takes a little more creativity and a little bit more thought and find other ways of bringing individuality.

No, it's good. It's very, and it's very simple. I like it. And that's what I love about the conversations with you, Diane, because you're very practical and [00:31:00] you have a wisdom and it's applied in very practical and measured ways. I mean, that's what I do appreciate.

The first, about the first conversation we had, and I, I hear it again today, which I really, really like. At the end of the day, I have a voice and a vote for people who are gonna work on the big stuff.

Mm-hmm.

But, and, but I can contribute in lots of ways to the big stuff, how I consume goods, how, how my food comes.

So it is interesting. I have two other questions I really want to consider today. You, but you wanna say something else? I want to get you that, and then I've got two other questions I wanna explore. So else would we say on this subject here about apparel and where we're at in the conversation?

I would just say, , anything that you buy. Look for the option for buying durable. You're probably going to invest a little bit more upfront, but if you can afford it, think about it this way. A t-shirt that you buy for this summer, this past summer, or let's say going into fall, right? A [00:32:00] t-shirt or sweater, maybe you buy one for 47 bucks and it's an acrylic sweater.

You wear it, you wash it three or four times, maybe five Maxs, it's probably gonna fall apart and it's not gonna keep you as warm 'cause it's acrylic. If you buy a sweater three or four times is more expensive. That's wool that's been made in a responsible way. You're gonna have that sweater for at least five years and you're gonna wear it for probably 30 or 40 times per wear.

It's a third cheaper than the $47 acrylic sweater. So if you look at the cost in a different way, the math outcome is very different. Think about things in a per use basis, changes the game.

Huh, I would never have thought that too. So look, I'm learning and then I get, no, I get less excuses. I like that. So I have a question about, Uh, we've had a lot of fires this year. It's the second. In Canada, it's the, I think it's the second most fires or the second most amount of land, area burnt in our.

Record keeping. So a [00:33:00] significant fire problem again. So I'd like to talk a little bit about the, biodiversity and the impact potentially. It has, again, I, I've done a little bit of reading and so it's a question I have because I've read things that have led me to the potential belief that one of the problems as we take forest and as we reforest areas, we tend not to plant.

Back very biodiverse, regions. And that lack of biodiversity creates a subset of other problems. And one being the land's ability to protect itself, regenerate itself through cross species and pollination. Is that just nonsense or is there, some truth to all that?

There's a lot of science that supports a biodiverse area. Has more resilience to it, and it goes down into the microbiome of the soil, but it's all the interaction of all the different species. So biodiversity means the number of different species in any [00:34:00] given plot, so it's, Geographic specific, right?

This square mile, this square, 100 miles, this region, right? How many diverse species are found there? There are other aspects to biodiversity, but for now, we're just gonna keep that there. It could be that 50% of species are not native, they're invasives, or they've been brought in for cash crops.

Again, let's just put that off to the side. The general rule of thumb is a more diverse ecosystem. With all the species, the birds, the bees, the insects, the creepy crawlies, the trees is more resilient largely because of the, of the soil structure, but it's also the interaction between all of the, the creatures.

So biodiversity in general is good. There are times when it's not good. But we can forget that for this example that you've given now, some replanting of forests tends to be monocropping when the intention [00:35:00] is to harvest that forest for paper. So we have forests that have been cleared either by fire or purposefully to produce a crop of trees.

And that's no different than having a, you know, a grove of olive trees. It's production. so there's a difference between wild land. And agricultural production land and really timber for forestry, timber for paper and pulp is like farming.

Interesting. Yeah. And yeah, I did a podcast a long time ago. I I think it was called the Fungi Network. But my wife had been reading a book and in the book it was written by a First Nations individual in Canada and they were talking about the wisdom of, of.

fungi networks. And so I got into researching mycelium and all this thing, and man, these networks are amazing. And they communicate underground and they do all this stuff. And I'm like, okay, hold on a second. This is crazy. Amazing stuff. So there is wisdom in the earth, obviously. And unfortunately maybe [00:36:00] sometimes, Diane, we overestimate our human wisdom and we think we're smarter than Mother Earth.

Maybe we can't, uh, outsmart mother Earth on most days.

Look at the analogy, right? So, You know, a bunch of white women my age in a room trying to make something creative or something viable is gonna be less successful than a a group that's very, very diverse, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's very similar, like we will come out with, you know, a, band range of, ideas and solutions where a diverse group is gonna have different life experiences and bring different, characteristics to the problem solving.

Not sure if that analogy really holds, but it just came to me and it's kind of like there is similarity

I, I, there

and no less political than.

no, yeah, I know, I know, I know. Easier, approachable. I know, but I like, it's such a really fascinating conversation. I always like it, so. Okay. Let me just, I wanna punctuate the conversation by asking this question. So what if we don't do anything? [00:37:00] What if we bury our head in the sand as individuals and we just say, I am not doing anything the trajectory of where we're at and where we go,

where does it lead us if we do not address these problems and this problem?

Largely. There are many aspects of it we dunno the answer to because we haven't had the experience of the interactions of the different biological systems that, keep the earth going. Right? So we don't, we can hypothesize what happens when the ice sheets melt. But we don't know exactly what that's gonna do when some of those biogas are gonna be resolved.

Now the models are that change is going to accelerate, and by change I mean global warming, which means more variants in temperatures higher. warmer oceans, stronger hurricanes, higher winds, all those types of things. So we can predict with a level of confidence that the [00:38:00] variability and the extreme, events will accelerate.

And what's interesting to me as an economist is that the insurance and reinsurance industry have already calculated that into their prices. So these guys understand, and they're, they've converted it to, to dollars on insurance premiums. So there's, you know, they're betting that way. I would prefer to do everything I can to prove they've made a bad bet.

Yeah, I'd like to. Make those actuaries actually look silly. That would

Exactly. You know, it, 

day. 

would, it would kind of be nice.

It would be kind of nice to say, oh no, you got that 

one wrong, but if 

but

you know it, 

have to make our contribution. Yeah.

right. Exactly. And again, the, the 360 citizen is you. You maintain a level of information so that you are a good voter. You vote with information. [00:39:00] And you vote in all the elections. I don't care how small or large, you shop with intelligence and you engage in your local community or whatever community, you know, it doesn't matter what scale.

It can be your neighbors. It can be, you know, a virtual community, but engage with people on these issues, shoes.

Yeah. Ah, it's, it's very wise. It's a very approachable, and that's what I love about having these conversations with you, Dan. 

and it's all new, right? So like let's have fun with it. Like this 

have fun on it. Yeah.

Embrace it that way.

Absolutely. So it is, currently, this podcast is dropping during climate week, and so climate week now, you could have a meatless Monday.

In this case, you can have a, a thankful Thursday, and you could have a synthetic free Saturday. Look it, we we're gonna create another one. See, we create, you know what? 

that. 

a movement synthetic free Saturday. 

Oh, I, love 

I, I think I'm gonna, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna coin that one.

I like it. I'm gonna go all natural fibers once a week just to experience it. It'll be perfect. I love it, Diane. [00:40:00] Okay, listen, we're gonna end here. So one last punch in the nose that you could give or little poke you could give. So if you could only just say one other thing to people and with compassion, but with conviction, just remind them of what they need to hear this conversation.

What's the one thing you'd just like him to take away?

You are the economy.

Hmm. You are the economy. Very wise, very wise. All right. Here's my comment as we finish up. First of all, you listen for a reason. If you wanna get ahold of Diane, Diane, how would they find you? If they want to get your book or talk to you or connect with you, how do they find you?

My book is Your Shopping Superpower. You'll find it wherever you find books, including online, of course. And there is an audio available. You can find me@dianeosgood.com and on Substack,

thank. Yeah, that's great. And you can DM me or you can email me at Tim and on commodified.com and chat with me if you'd like to as well. So here's my challenge as we finish [00:41:00] up. I've been thinking about this a little bit. So listen, I don't think that we can wait for someone else to solve this problem.

I think that's part of the message here. We can't outsource responsibility for the air we breathe, the water we drink, or the future. That our kids are gonna have, we, can't outsource that. I think that is, is part of what I'm hearing. And so the question at the end of the day, I think is quite simple to me and to you.

If you're listening, will you, will I, will we stay a spectator ultimately, or will we step into the tension? 'cause there is tension in this discussion. Will we step into the tension, become part of the shift because climate isn't going to change or wait for us, and so we need to change. Before it's too late.

That's the challenge we all have. Thanks for listening in. You listen for a reason. Meatless Monday. Thankful Thursday, synthetic free Saturday. Have a great day. Cheers.