When GENEROSITY SEEMS HARD: UNCORKED with Suzanne SULLIVAN

This UNCORKED conversation with Tim Windsor and international development leader Suzanne Sullivan goes straight to a brutal question: what happens to our generosity when life gets hard? 

From bombed-out streets in Iraq to washed-out footbridges in rural Kenya to shrinking retirement accounts in North America, Suzanne has lived on both sides of crisis, and she argues that generosity is not a luxury for the comfortable but a lifeline in the chaos. Together, Tim and Suzanna unpack how hardship tempts us to hoard, control, and clench our fists and why choosing to live open-handed in those moments can strengthen us, restore our joy, and multiply our impact far beyond money.

Listeners will be challenged to examine the real source of their generosity: is it ego, guilt, duty, or love? Suzanne and Tim delve into uncomfortable territory, discussing honestly the act of giving to “get rid” of people, the desire to protect their shrinking net worth, and the tension between providing for their families and caring about someone else’s kids and grandkids. You’ll hear stories of bridges built by BRIDGING THE GAP AFRICA in Kenya so kids can get to school, and mothers can cross raging rivers safely, and the surprising way Suzanne’s own professional “zeroing out” opened a door to more meaningful work. 

This conversation is a call to practise generosity as a daily discipline through presence, listening, hospitality, and small, concrete choices, especially when it feels least practical.

If you’ve ever thought, “I’ll be generous when things settle down,” this episode will mess with you, in the best way. You’ll walk away asking: Who do I want to be and how do I want to be remembered? Am I living clenched-fist or open-handed? And what would it look like to choose generosity today, in my neighbourhood, my workplace, my bank account, and my world?

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

What happens to our generosity when life gets hard? Do we hold it tighter? Do we, we guard what's ours 'cause it feels scarce? Or do we dare to open our hands a little bit wider and risk what feels often unsafe in the moment? But it actually creates something extraordinary for others and ourselves along the way.

In this Uncorked episode, I sit down with an international development leader who spent over a quarter century in the thick of it working where need is high, where crisis shakes people to their very core and where the choice to be generous. Or not has real visible consequences in the lives of others.

Together we're gonna explore what hardship actually does to our willingness to give how generosity isn't at the end of the day, just about money, about the money we give, but it's about presence time, and the courage we give to other humans and why the opportunities that come from generous living often surprise us most when it's most difficult and challenging to do so.

[00:01:00] If you've ever wondered whether generosity is just a luxury for the comfortable or if it's a lifeline in the chaos of difficulty, this conversation's gonna challenge you to think differently about that. It's gonna challenge your assumptions. It will reveal how giving, especially when it costs us shapes, not just the lives of others, but it actually transforms our own lives along the way when we give, when it hurts.

Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Unmodified podcast. I'm Tim Windsor, and today my guest on the show is Suzanne Sullivan. Suzanne, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm really honored and, uh, pleased to be here today. Tim,

Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun. So before I tell you a little bit about Suzanne, let me just give you some context, listeners. So, I'm in Canada and outside of Toronto. Suzanne, where are you today?

I'm in Nairobi.

You are in Nairobi, in Kenya, and so we've already had some tremendous experience so far. We tried to get recording.

We couldn't. Internet's difficult. This welcome to the real world. Of course, I live in the first world. You live in the third world, and sometimes these things are difficult. [00:02:00] So hopefully the forces of evil in the universe do not array against us anymore. Suzanne, how about that?

Yes, that's true. I'm

sure it'll be okay. it. Okay. So listen, let me tell you a little bit about Suzanne.

Um, I had the privilege of meeting Suzanne a couple of months ago, maybe, maybe six, seven months ago. Suzanne is an international development leader with over 25 years of experience delivering security and conflict programs and advisory services to support people most in need around the globe. She's lived and worked in the Middle East, south Asia, the Balkans, Europe and Africa.

Suzanne, she owns a successful, very successful advisory business that supports companies, nonprofits, and international organization. And our connection actually is, is sort of in this, in that she currently leads the growth efforts in a micro nonprofit called Bridging the Gap, Africa. And that, agency was founded by a great friend of mine, Harman Parker, who Suzanne now partners with.

For those of you who followed the podcast, I had Harman on my podcast years ago. I'm gonna have him on a. Again, 'cause there's some [00:03:00] tremendous developments here and I love what they're doing together. And so that's our connection. But of course every good conversation that I have, Suzanne begins with a drink now it's kind of time zone.

Interesting today. So what time is it where you are right now?

It is just after five o'clock in the early evening.

Okay, so early evening. And you are, what are you gonna uncork today as we, have a conversation.

Yeah, I've got with me, um, a nice glass of Sian wine. Uh, we love Sardinia and, um, it's not easy to find in these parts, but I have found a bottle and, uh, it'll be an etched glass from my grandmother. So.

amazing. Well listen, so you know, it's always five o'clock summer as they say, or eight o'clock or six o'clock. Dunno how it works. But, so it's 10 17 in the morning where I am. But because it's an un conversation, and I wanna make sure I don't make my guest drink alone, I actually have an interesting bottle of wine.

So my wife went to a lavender farm this year, not far from where we live, and they also have a small winery and they make [00:04:00] some very interesting wines. And so this actually is a white wine that's a strawberry rhubarb wine. So it's very different. Um, I wouldn't say it's my like everyday go-to wine. ' cause it's a little, it's a little bit too, she, she la la for me, but it's actually quite tasty.

So I'm gonna pour a drink of that. And again, 10 17 for me, forgive me. Cheers to

you. 

Cheers.

Mm. It's actually quite good. Awesome. Well, listen, Suzanne, I am so excited for this conversation. We've been talking about doing this for a long time, and I can't wait for my listeners to learn about you and your story and how this works. So let's just start there. So tell us a little bit about your story and then as we think about that, I'm really interested in how living and leading in generous ways.

Ultimately has impacted you and others, and then we'll talk about the challenges of generosity your time. But tell me a little bit about your story and how generosity has played a, a role in this for you.

No, it's a great, topic [00:05:00] because I think it's so fundamental to humanity, you know, being generous. If I may take a little liberty, you know, I looked up the word across different cultures and languages and it was pretty common. It was about, you know, selflessness, about humanity, about giving your time, treasure talent.

In some of the languages it was about. Really, being, you know, giving without, begrudging. Uh, and so I think it's something that is, it's easy to go in either direction, right? And for me, generosity is a choice, uh, to be generous, to be a generous person, to give of yourself.

And I think it's something that really, I, you know, I, I learned from. From my family, from my parents, um, from my upbringing. I was brought up in a church, a Christian Church, and certainly with the people I've surrounded myself with. So it's something I'd like to talk a little bit about. You know, today, sort of your middle class person, uh, living in California.

I'm a 10th generation [00:06:00] Californian through my mother's mother's family. And, um, been there a long time and, you know, I think my parents always were. Really wanted to help others. They, they didn't have a lot, but they always were willing to spend an extra bit of time making it an extra meal.

Um, you know, very nice for someone when maybe a baby was born or when someone new came to the community, uh, when a neighbor was sick. those are the kinds of things that, you know, I just kind of saw in that, that kind of lifestyle of generosity. And really, you know, built on faith.

You know, I have a faith, my family has a faith built on love, on caring for others. And so that humanness of generosity and doing it from a place of love, not from a place of I'm going to get something out of it, or it's my duty, or it's the right thing to do just because. When you do it from that, it's, it's still selfish, right?

Or generosity is selfless. It is about the other person. [00:07:00] You must come second or last, which is not a message I think we hear about, or at least where I'm from. to come last, come second. Self is always first, but you can't do that with generosity. So I think start the starting point is quite important.

You know what, that's a real, what a great point you're making because I do think that sometimes even our generosity, if we're really, if we really analyze it, the motivation for it sometimes is a little bit wonky. Uh, you use the word wonky. if we're really honest about why we're doing it, and I, to be honest, I'll even, you know, admit this at times, there are times where I think I've been generous.

Let's say, you know, maybe in a social setting, maybe I'm in my community and maybe there are people who are homeless, housing challenged, and, uh, maybe they, I, they want something from me. There have been times I think that I've actually given my money to get them away from me. Not to actually embrace them or learn who they are and their [00:08:00] story.

So my motivation actually in the giving, not that pure. Um, and so I think it's a really good observation. Again, I listeners, I always say if, when you listen to these conversations, you listen for a reason and I think we're already tucked in quite hard to this and that is, you know, ask yourself some questions about what is the actual source.

Of your generosity. That's a really provocative question and a great challenge, Suzanne. So thanks for making that the starting point. It's like we dove right off, the diving board into the deep end of this conversation, but it's so critical. 'cause I, I would have to admit there are times that my motivation for my generosity isn't as wonderful as it seems to others.

No, and, and, and I think it's, it's something that we also have to think about. So when you do come into contact with someone or a situation. I gotta give my money again or I have to do that again. I don't have time for that. That's a big thing. Money is one thing. Time I think now, [00:09:00] especially certainly from the culture I come from, is really tough.

You know, time, treasure, talent, and those are the things that we have in our life to give. We might not have much of it in any of those categories, but um, I think as humans we are called, that is a calling that is built into us to be generous or not to be generous. And it is a choice, and it's a choice that I think, certainly in my upbringing and even in my, you know, beyond my upbringing, in my professional, uh, world, and now my family, you know, surrounding myself with people that are generous, that have chosen a path, a journey where actually I'm gonna be generous.

It's not easy, but it's a standard we all should live by and it's, we have to practice it every day, every moment, sometimes. Right. We have to practice. It doesn't mean do I give my money to somebody that, is asking me all the time. That's not what generosity is. It is though about putting self second or [00:10:00] last and how can I help or choose to help someone else and be generous.

No, that's a great point. So, so let's go back for a second. So, you're raised California at some point. I mean, obviously you now have. You know, you're, into your life journey, you're into your career. know, you've lived in the Middle East, south Asia, the Balkans, Europe, Africa. You've, you've had all this experience.

So I'd be interested, let's say to the sort of the embryonic beginning of this. So at what moment in your life does Suzanne says, you know, California, it's a really cool place to live, but. My destiny actually is to do something different, do something more impactful, and move across the globe. So how does that start?

is it driven by your education in the beginning and then your experience after? How does, how do you move in this direction? 'cause it's quite, it's not a typical journey that most people take.

No, it's not. I think, uh, you know, faith is a key part of it. I think from a very young age, I was always questioning, questioning what I believed in, questioning why [00:11:00] my parents would, would tell me something, questioning why, and not in a rebellious, um. You know, sort of, way, but in a curious way and being curious about things beyond myself.

I, it's just kind of, I think how I'm wired. There's a lot of experiences, there's a lot of family history related to that, but at the end of the day, it's kind of just how Suzanne is wired. I started off in journalism and politics, and then I thought. Can I actually feed myself? 'cause the hours of those two sectors put in, I, no, and for whatever one says, politicians are, I believe the hardest working people, they are truly, oftentimes steered in the completely wrong direction, but they are on 24 7.

And I, and I didn't quite want that. And I think it was when I, when I was selected as a, as an intern at the State Department in Vienna, Austria. Where I worked with diplomats, um, wonderful humans that taught me a lot. Pre nine 11. This is pre nine 11. so it was very much, uh, you know, a little bit of, the old thinking [00:12:00] Yeah.

or just the, in the day where, you know, the Soviet Union had collapsed. You know, there were different challenges around the world. It was very interesting to me. but I, I, I still felt like I needed to be close to people. Diplomacy at the policy level. I loved, but I, it didn't get me up every single morning and I really was thankful for that.

Um, for people being generous to me, for letting me have experiences, for letting me see their lifestyle, for letting me, you know, a window into their life where I always said, you know, actually, I don't think this is for me. I don't wanna get into, that world. But it's close. I'm getting there. And it was when I was selected to go to Kosovo where I was really like, yep, this is exactly where I need to be.

These are my people. People living in Kosovo. It's a, it's a rich, wonderful area of our planet. Lovely human beings. And then all of the people that had done what I had done, those people are, so much as well, part of my soul, and they chose. Coming from [00:13:00] all different backgrounds and religions and all over the planet.

You know, an Egyptian police officer, uh, an Italian aid worker, you know, an indi, an Indonesian manager. All of us had come together 'cause we felt this need to be generous to other people and to think of ourselves. Less, you know, put ourselves at the back of the queue, at back of the line and do something for others to try to, bring some joy and hope in people's lives.

And, uh, so that's, that I think is probably really where it all kind of clicked at 20, 22, 23 years old when I moved out there.

It's amazing. You know what I, what I love about, just about that sort of the journey there is, you know, you're moving in a direction, you're moving out, you're moving forward, you're moving deeper into what you think you want, who you wanna be and what you wanna do. But you're also recognizing that you're, you're not quite finding it.

And so you're remaining open to be sort of moved or nudged in a different direction, which [00:14:00] I think is a really interesting part of the journey. One I, I think sometimes people expect. To be sitting at their desk and then somehow they get moved, to something else, but they haven't actually moved themselves.

And I think sometimes when people make those initial choices, it's easier to get locked in to say, well, I've chosen this, I need to stay here. this is where I'm gonna stay. But yet you're open to this sort. Cosmic nudge that says, Hey, this isn't quite where you need to be yet, Suzanne, that you need, you need to move in this direction.

So again, if you're listening in, I, I think that's a really interesting challenge. You know, again, are you waiting? Are you sitting at your house waiting around for something to come and find you? 

maybe you need 

to go out and find it, but recognize that you have to be open to the possibility. Along the way that you're not gonna quite find it, but you want to keep moving forward deeper into the heart of maybe what you're called to be, what you're destined to be, however you want to see that.

But I think that's really, really fascinating. So, so you're having these experiences, you now start to get a sense that this is [00:15:00] maybe the heart of who I am, this is, this is maybe what I was created to do. however you sort of see that, then you, you start going on a journey, you go to a bunch of different countries.

Is that all with. Different agencies and organizations. Is it primarily through one? Obviously you start your own type of agency at something or group so that you can facilitate this, but what are the major drivers from organizationally? Do you get hired by an organization that then starts saying, Hey, you got some chops, let's get you working here.

Well, it, I'll take us back to, generosity. You ask really fundamental and critical questions. two points before I go there. One is you gotta, you gotta look at your life, not just in the moment and not just what you want out of it, but how you're going to evolve over time and then the day you die.

Why do I say that? Because it helps you understand that it is a journey. It's not that you're climbing the ladder to go do something. You wanna buy a [00:16:00] big house, you wanna get a big degree. None of that really 'cause that, first of all, it never falls into place that way, that's for sure. But like you said, being open.

And then really surrounding yourself with people. Whatever line of work or whatever family life you have, whatever your mission in life is supposed to be, find people around you that are going to be generous and that you can, you know, emulate that they can, they can encourage you. And I think I, I, I was really blessed and touched that there were so many people in places that don't have a lot that were.

That had the same values of generosity and love and helping others. I think that's really important. You don't have to have a lot, you don't have to come from America or from Canada to experience that or to do that, or to give of yourself. I think the other thing that really, as I was kind of, you know, whether it was, dodging bombs in, in Iraq, I mean, I had the wonderful opportunity [00:17:00] to, work with many internationals, but also many Iraqis who taught me so much.

And I think it's something that is also really important. Being generous is being open, like you said, and also learning and listening. My culture doesn't teach that. Yeah. That is not a message you hear to stop and to listen and to quiet and to be ready to be generous because you're learning from someone else that that's not a message.

I think I certainly, I don't see that right now, in my culture, but it's also something that when you stop for a moment and you're thinking about what you want to do, it also helps you be more open, 

helps you be more generous. And somehow it also comes back. Right. So being generous strengthens you.

It's actually, it's counterintuitive, but it's, it's the antidote to, self, it's the antidote to. To anger, to frustration. you know, you asked about being hired. I, I had this [00:18:00] lovely, opportunity to go to Kosovo, and then of course it was the people in these places that you build this community and then they go on and then you follow each other and you, where you're, you know, where your skill sets meet up, you know, you get hired.

Um, I worked with the United Nations. I worked with the organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, known as OSCE. Um, I was then, hired into the United States Agency for International Development, U-S-A-I-D, which we know this year was, um, destroyed. and um, and we can talk about that. I know we talked about, you know, maybe going into that, but through all of those journeys and those hirings and those.

Fitting into teams in Baghdad, in Islamabad, in Libreville, in Vienna, in the uk. you know, giving of myself was a choice. And it was, it was not always easy. Like I fail all the time, but. Uh, when I do choose it, I, [00:19:00] and many times, you immediately reap the benefit. you immediately see the smile on someone's face, the joy or the compliment.

Someone will say, gosh, you know, you, we like, we like to host at our house. We like to have parties. We, and you know, we pay for don't bring wine. Don't just come and be. And people say, gosh, you know. Wow. And that's such a blessing to have someone else recognizing the generosity, but also being blessed by the generosity.

And it makes you stronger. It sounds cheesy, but it, it works like it's this like very natural human interaction and um, you know, I think certainly. certainly my culture has that humanity. I think this year it's been challenging and I've been challenged this year, in some of that humanity and being generous.

So, I certainly see, I see that the impact pretty quickly. Most of the time when I'm, when I choose generosity.

Yeah, so listen, I, I wanna take the conversation a second. I wanna take it towards. The challenge of generosity in [00:20:00] difficult times like we are in our world and planet right now. But before I go there, I wanna, I wanna ask a question 'cause I find this interesting. So when's the last time you lived in the United States of America?

So I've lived there about four years in the last 25. I lived there when I had my child. in, in 20 18, 20 16, 20 17, about that. And then before that, I lived in the, in the late tens, is that how you call it? When I worked for Bechtel, um, and had the wonderful opportunity to work in San Francisco and 

New 

Orleans. 

Yeah. So the reason I asked the question, 'cause I find it fascinating 'cause you have primarily lived most of your adult life, or a significant part of it outside of the United States of America. but you also have referred to my culture. As if your culture today is somehow different than the culture that you live in currently, let's say in, in Kenya, or you might have had, so I'm, that's interesting to me because, [00:21:00] so you have a cultural identity that has imprinted you.

It seems to me, and my, I find this funny thing, is that as much as you've had all this other experience, you still have maintained the propositional sort of argument or position that your culture is, is still different than the cultures that you live in. That's interesting to me because I have a feeling that that more than likely is quite a helpful, yet a difficult, belief to maintain.

It is, it's a, it's a great question. Um, you know, the human brain can compartmentalize very, very well. Right? And sometimes we don't even know that. but when you work in places. Like Iraq, um, in those days, this was the early days when there was a lot of, war. You know, we were, we were bombed multiple times a day for months on end.

and looking back, I kind of say, wow, how did I do that? How did, how did we do that? How did the Iraqis do that? But I think, the, the interesting thing is that. [00:22:00] I'm also sort of this global citizen, and so I have this sort of, I consider it a luxury that I get to meet all of these other cultures and, and immerse myself.

But at the end of the day, I'm still an American. I'm still from California. those are my roots. This is where my family is. Um, and it's also the culture that. Made me who I am. You know, I am so grateful for that culture. Um, I left the Silicon Valley when everybody was starting the Silicon Valley.

So, you know, the question is why would you leave? But I think for certainly me, it it's really important to also retain. Without it becoming, a problem. Right, or, or, or becoming, you know, in someone's face. It's, it, you have to blend it. But, but I, but just as you bring your culture to this conversation or the man down, you know, my neighbor down the street, he brings his culture.

I bring my culture and that's a beautiful thing. not always a message we hear these days,

but individual culture is so, [00:23:00] so beautiful.

is, yeah. So I think this is really interesting part of the conversation because I do think that to your point. I think it's helpful to remind ourselves that even though we might have lots of different experiences and maybe even live in another place for a while, that actually our cultural heritage, the way we've been brought up, it affects our worldview.

Not just in negative ways, of course, but in positive ways. But the idea to have a humility about our cultural nuance and belief and perspective, and say that it's different but not. Only right way, I think is a really important part of this discussion because I think, and I think it's tied to generosity because I think part of it is, is that when we believe that our culture isn't just different, but it is right, and maybe the only or best way, then we're gonna impose a subset of things on people, which actually is not really a sign of generosity.

I think generosity, to your point, isn't just the money we give, but actually. The generous acceptance of another person's worldview, a generous [00:24:00] acceptance of their perspective, even if we disagree with it. I think that is a powerful form of generosity and I think it's a generosity that we have become frankly, really bereft of. Because in our world today, the, the generosity of seeing the value and difference of others and welcoming that in, I think we're struggling with that right now as a world, as a globe, as politicians, as people, as governments. Although I don't really believe government exists in some way.

It's existential because it's just people. Actually, I think this is a great challenge for me, and again, if you're listening in, I think it's a great challenge is, is that being generous with your money is one thing. The time, of course, but being generous in your acceptance of another human and their worldview and perspective and understanding that, I think that really is a really wonderful, generous expression.

So I challenge you, my listeners, to think about what that means. I challenge myself to think about that. I think it's a great conversation. so listen with that in mind, let's sort of tuck into the last part that we wanna talk about here. [00:25:00] Which is, so we're in very difficult times. You know, my, my, uh, I don't have a 401k in, in, uh, we have a different system in Canada, but you know, my investments, uh, over the last number of years haven't done so well.

Of course, they're rebounding now. Right now But that's gonna happen now. I have less, wealth. Technically today than I did four years ago. To be very frank, you know, in my neighborhood, my house five years ago was worth $1.3 million. My house today is worth $900,000. It's $400,000 less value that I have in my world.

And my thing, of course, first world problem. But the reality is, is that makes me wonder whether I have enough to be generous. You know, I had a meeting last night, my wife and I had a meeting with our financial planner, and we're looking at, into our future, and we're looking at what if we live till 85 or 90?

And we're, this discussion's all about, well, how much are we gonna have? How much can we get? How much can we retain? you know, what's our estate gonna be worth when we're dead one day? And now I'm having [00:26:00] a conversation with you and I'm, struggling and I think the struggle is real.

And I think the struggle is, is for a lot of people today in our world, particularly those who are the 1%, 'cause I think I am the 1%. And so I, I get challenged I feel like I, have a struggle in myself 'cause I wanna be generous, but I also wanna hoard. I wanna gather resource to myself and I want to keep it and I wanna amass it and I wanna give it to my, my kids and grandkids.

But I'm not sure if I want to give it to somebody else's kids and grandkids. So when things are difficult, and again, I'm just being super honest about the struggle. 'cause it is real.

What's the secret for you of maintaining a generous spirit or heart? Even when it isn't as such a pragmatic, Lee positive decision.

Yeah. I mean, you ask the, the fundamental question, and it's, it's a fundamental human question. 

It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in. BOLO Tristan. Or if you're sitting in Nairobi or if you're [00:27:00] sitting in Montreal, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know what you look like, what your education is.

We all have a choice in this world. We're all, you know, we were dealt a hand. How are we gonna play that hand? I think earlier this year when U-S-A-I-D closed and all of the, just the emotion around that, you know, I told myself. and also with, with a husband who works in the US government who also wasn't sure about his, his job.

you know, we have, things that we need to provide for. What is that gonna look like if, we're at zero? You know, I went to zero. and I have means even, even though I went to zero and I think I, I said to myself, you know, wait a minute. Stop. This is actually an opportunity.

It's an opportunity through really. Tough times through a really potentially bitter time. a potentially angry time. I could choose to be angry. I could choose to be bitter. [00:28:00] You know, everything around me was saying, you know, you were corrupt. you were the problem. You failed, you didn't deliver.

You know, the other side said, you know, lash back, be angry. Get out on the streets and protest. Do you know, do all this stuff. and through all of this emotion, I was like, no, these are the cards I've been dealt. I'm gonna play them well. I'm gonna choose generosity and no one, no one will steal my joy.

That, to me, was the icing on the cake because. Not that I, okay, I'm this tough girl. No, I'm not. I, I broke, I broke. I was hurt. My, a part of my soul had closed in many ways. I was able to reopen that part by tapping into generosity by. Helping friends go through their difficult times.

By helping my husband by, by reaching out to, people in, in my [00:29:00] community. I was then hired by, uh, bridging the Gap Africa to come in and help people that have nothing. And I think it's something that, you know, being generous kind of paid itself quite quickly for me. I was super blessed to be able to.

Now work with really, um, you know, work at the field level to work with people that really need help to where we build bridges across rushing rivers so kids can go to school so women can deliver their babies safely. so people don't drown. You know, I was able to, through those really tough times, be really blessed.

And I think, you know, it's because I did choose generosity. It cleared out my head space. It allowed me to have joy. It allowed me the, the space and the, the energy to help others that were going through really tough times. that maybe weren't choosing generosity all the time and help me to help them look at things a little bit differently.

So I always grow in life's tough times. Um, and I think generosity is a [00:30:00] real, you know, you know, take a vial of generosity. drink it and start to do good little, in little ways. This doesn't have to be running off to some grand place and doing some, you know, selling all your time and, and possessions.

But it's about talking to your neighbor. Please talk to your neighbor. Invite someone for coffee. Let someone else have the parking place at the mall at Christmas. You know, give that extra dollar or a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars to your favorite charity. Bridging the gap africa.org is always something I would encourage.

Um. Yeah, reach out to somebody elderly in your community and have a chat. You know, find ways that you can be helpful in your child's school. there are things you can do, you know, C cat sit, do things that you wouldn't normally do and start to make a lifestyle change. It's not a 30 day fad.

It's not something you swipe on your phone and read a nice little thing that says, be [00:31:00] generous today. No, it's every day. It's choosing every moment. To be generous. It doesn't mean it's easy. It's very tough. Very high standard, 

Yeah. 

but it is really important.

Suzanne, I mean, first of all, I just love the way you frame that and, and making generosity so, so simple and approachable, and yet it maintains its power because in, in its simplicity, it is a very powerful force. So I love that articulation. And again, I love the fact that you've connected with harm.

And I've known Harmon for a long time and you know, Harmon for a long time, I think has been looking for a person like you. And so I, you know, the unfortunate circumstances. Is that, you know, you, you probably ended up finding Harman in a way. You may not have found him if you hadn't found yourself in the difficulty you were.

So, as much as the expression potentially of some people in getting rid of these aid agencies wasn't generous, by nature, it might've been generous. In other [00:32:00] ways because actually your inability to continue maybe down the path that you're on and becomes actually an open portal that connects you with Harman.

I know you've known him a long time. So as much as these same times are difficult, I find the one, the wonder of it is, is that in the midst of this, you have connected, reconnected with Harman, you guys are now serving one another in a different way. And I'm very excited about that. And you know, uh, again, I think this podcast will.

Probably air sometime mid-November of 2025. My plan is to follow up and talk with Harman in December because as you know, you know, we have, we've always, uh, had a love for what Harman does. We've had a charity for a long time that supported it. that became unmaintainable. We've worked in a different direction so that we can set up some funding opportunities in Canada and that's important to us.

So this episode's gonna drop sometime just before probably what we. Could consider either globally in North America, giving Thursday, I think it's called right near us Thanksgiving, I think it sits 

there. Is that right Suzanne?[00:33:00] 

So again, I would just challenge you, uh, personally, that, uh, you know.

Ask yourself, what does giving Thursday look like for you? And by the way, probably a given Thursday isn't enough. Maybe a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, thrown in there. Maybe a Friday, Saturday, Sunday even would be great. But if you're going to practice, uh, some discipline around expressing an unusual generosity potentially on that Thursday or any other Thursday.

I think it's a great challenge to say, what would you invest in for the sake of who you wanna be? And, and as you said earlier, Suzanne, which is provocative, who do you wanna be when you, when you're no longer here, how do you want to be remembered? This is the opportunity of legacy. So really great conversation, Suzanne.

Uh, I appreciate having it with you. So you did mention that people could sort of, uh, look at what your world now at bridging the Gap africa.org.

Um, if they wanted to connect specifically with you, Suzanne, what's the easiest way for them to hunt you down?

Send me a LinkedIn message, Suzanne m [00:34:00] Sullivan.

Okay. Suzanne m Solomon. You can connect with Suzanne and listen, I, I. I do appreciate the generous gift of your time. I know you got a lot going on. What's interesting to me, it's fascinating. I love the globe. I'm sitting here, it's now about 10 minutes to 11:00 AM Eastern standard time. As we've talked, it's pretty clear that the sun is setting where

you are. You know, we live in vastly different parts of the world, and yet we're on one globe. citizens of individual geography. We live in different time zones, but these are all actually, just human constructs of division that don't really exist. We're one planet, one people with one potential destiny.

Of greatness or of destruction depending on the choices that we make. This is the grand globe that we live in. I love it. You know, I'm reminded as we talk about the fact that, and I referenced it in book I wrote a number of years ago called Unmodified. You know, I learned generosity from my mother, who we had grew up in a very poor circumstances, but my [00:35:00] mother taught me to live generously.

And in the book I described it as I think unmodified people lived open-handed, not clenched. They understand the idea that if we clench and hold things to ourselves, somehow they're diminished. But if we live open handedly to others, if we unc unclench our hands and we live in generosity, there is this strange math that happens where we don't just add to something, we multiply it.

And you know, when we actually. Hold on too tight. We diminish those resources, maybe divide them, but when we, we can multiply our resources and our impact as we express generosity. And this conversation today is a great reminder of that. Suzanne, so listen, I'm gonna give you the last word. I usually like the last word, but I'm gonna give you the last word.

So if you could give one other kind provocation to my listeners as they listen to this, and then think about maybe, you know, thankful Thursday or given Thursday or something different. What's your last provocation you'd want to give him?

Choose [00:36:00] generosity. we have no other choice. it's in us. It's in each of us, even if we're not the best people. So choose generosity and choose it now. Go do something right now after listening to this. Choose to be generous.

Awesome, great provocation again. You listened, you listened in for a reason. Thanks for listening in. Do me a favor, if uh, this conversation's percolating you and you're uncorking it like we did this drink together today, um, DM me or send me an email@timatunmodified.com and let Suzanne know what we're doing.

And again, um, what a great provocation. Suzanne, thanks for the generous gift of your time today and have a wonderful day. Cheers.

Thank you.