GUIDES in DISGUISE: UNCORKED with LENORE WALKER

What if the answers you’ve been chasing aren’t hiding in more hustle, more data, or another “proven framework” — but in the shadows, symbols, and stories you’ve been trained to dismiss? 

In this UNCORKED conversation, Tim Windsor muses with Jungian-rooted psychotherapist (and long-time friend) Lenore Walker as they wander into “the third way”, a mysterious and elegant alternative to our usual binary, fix-it-fast approach to life’s messes and clusterfucks. Instead of reaching for the obvious solutions, Lenore invites you into a realm shaped by myth, fairy tale, intuition, dreams, and the kind of waiting that enlarges you, rather than enslaves you.

Together, Tim and Lenore explore why our culture worships intellect, speed, and certainty, and how that devotion quietly starves our instinct, emotion, and imagination. They unpack the Indigenous wisdom about not rushing purpose, the power of dreams (including nightmares) as messengers, and the uncomfortable truth that sometimes the thing you’re trying to slay is your ally in disguise. Along the way, they weave in wisdom from sacred texts, The Lord of the Rings, Wicked, and the “treasures of the darkness,” challenging you to consider that the most uncommodified, honest path forward might be the one you can’t yet explain, control, or justify on a spreadsheet.

Listeners who lean in will discover why obvious options often keep us stuck; they’ll see waiting in an entirely new light, not as weakness, but as the doorway to intuition and genuine wisdom. They’ll reclaim the imaginative, instinctive parts of themselves that modern life suppresses and re-evaluate their perceived flaws or “enemies” as possible guides in disguise. 

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

What if the answers you've been chasing aren't hiding in the obvious places, but in the shadows, the symbols, and the stories you've been taught to overlook in your life? What if the key to unlocking your next breakthrough in life or work isn't found in a more logical place? Not in a place of more hustle or more data, but by leaning into something wilder and wonderfully uncomfortable.

In this Unco conversation, we're gonna step off the beaten path and wander into a mysterious terrain of what my guest calls the third way. Will discover that a realm shaped not by spreadsheets or step-by-step formulas, but by myths, fairytales, and imagination that defy convention at times. This is where the art of living gets beautifully unmodified.

If you're ready to loosen your grip on certainty, embrace some paradox, and discover an elegant new way to solve problems that maybe have been gnawing at you for a long time, then buckle up. This is going to bend your mind, I think a bit, but in the best [00:01:00] possible way. Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Un Commodified Podcast.

I'm Tim Windsor, and today my guest on the show once again is Lenore Walker. Lenore, welcome back to the show.

Thank you very much. It's so lovely to be here again.

Oh, it is. So you listen now. I was, I was thinking about this Lenore. So, by the way, if you're listening, and if you haven't listened to the first episode I did with Lenore, you've gotta list to it. It was actually episode number 25. I can't believe this time. I think we're close to 190 something now, February of 2021, a long time ago, that episode, that conversation was called Pencils Paint and the tail of Two Windows, which by the way I think is a rather clever title.

I think like that was a good one I came up with. But before we get into that a Bit about Lenore. Lenore is a psychotherapist who, who blends her years of expertise with a calming, encouraging presence to help people navigate through life's toughest transitions. Rooted in Jungian, psychology and creative therapy.

She guides clients to uncover their inner wisdom, heal soul rifts, and transform challenges into wholeness. [00:02:00] Lenora is also one of our best friends, my wife Pam and I, and has been for 30 years, I can't believe over 30 years. I, man, we must have met when we were three. It's crazy. Lenar hard to believe. 30 plus years we've known each other and I always am super delighted to chat with Lenora.

We have her over for dinner. We chat and this is gonna be almost like a dinner chat, which is gonna be great. So if it's a dinner chat, we can uncork with a drink of course. So, um, what are you gonna drink tonight? Lenore?

Well, in honor of my late sister Christina, who introduced me to Stella Archis, who was one of my greatest supporters, and with her encouragement, this is why I do the work that I. Do because she was just my greatest cheerleader. That's what I'm going to uncork tonight, so here we go.

Awesome. I love it. Okay, and now I am gonna crack open something called my favorite Whiskey, which is a 16-year-old leg V.

Now I'm, I'm gonna. Take the [00:03:00] lid off that one and we're gonna see where we go. Alright. Cheers my friend.

cheers.

Okay. Gotta pour carefully. The last time I opened a beer live on the podcast went all over me, so today I'm doing whiskey.

I'm a little afraid of the beer.

Trying to be careful to get that a little bit controlled.

There you go.

There we go. 

Beautiful. Cheers.

to you.

 By the way, I do like that beer you're drinking. It's a good beer.

You know, I would never have known of it. had my sister not introduced me to it. She was in the hospitality profession amongst other things. And so when this first came here, she was one of the first people to make sure everybody knew about it.

Ah, that's amazing. Awesome. Okay, so, okay, let's get into this conversation. So, full disclosure to all my listeners. So when I asked Lenore, Hey, what do you want to chat about? By the way, when you ask Lenore Walker, what do you wanna chat about? You have no idea. What you're gonna get back, because Leno [00:04:00] can chitty chat about a thousand things.

And so Leno comes back and says, you know, I love to talk about the third way. And I have to admit, at the beginning I was like, oh, that's great. And then this morning before the podcast, I sent a frantic text, I believe, at something like five 16 in the morning and said, Lenore. What is the third way? So I am gonna be going on a journey of discovery during this conversation 'cause I don't really understand where we're gonna go in this conversation.

So let's start with this. So you can start with what is the third way. If you want, or if you wanna be mysterious, you can figure out a different way to braille into the conversation. But something's got you excited and there's something very powerful in this idea. So let's explore it together.

So the third way is actually something that a lot of people may have heard about, but not. Possibly that way, and it does come [00:05:00] from the work of Dr. Carl Jung, and it's part of where we arrive once we are able to contend with the struggle of wanting to have the easy, quick. Solution to problem, or wanting to bypass it altogether.

And the third way is part of what he called, the, the characterizing feature in the transcendent function. In other words, we're all on a journey toward wholeness. The third way is often the way that gets us. A step onward on our true, honest, unmodified journey toward wholeness. And it isn't obvious this third way.

Some people call it. The third thing I have, an artist colleague who runs a pottery studio. She calls her [00:06:00] pottery studio a third space 'cause she understands this concept. So you may have heard it, we've all actually heard it. Often in fairytales, but we haven't maybe noticed. So you'll notice that there's often three characters in a fairytale or three options, you know, or maybe two options that contend with one another, and then often this kind of nerdy, weird, offbeat character comes up with.

Another way. 

And that's often an acknowledgement of the aspects that might be positive about the other two, as they both have validity, even if they seem negative and is able though to distill those into something different. Um, and so does that kind of answer your question at 

Yeah, it, well, yeah, it answers my question, but it gives me a lot [00:07:00] more, which, is what I like. So, so again, maybe I'm gonna ask a question that just is. Just nonsensical. And if I do, you can say, well, you, you missed the mark on that. Fair enough. I'm, it won't be the first time I've done that. But if it's the third way it suggests, maybe then there's a first way or a second way that I might typically like to encounter myself, my journey, my conundrums, my cluster fucks, whatever I'm trying to figure out is there a first way and a second way.

That typically I approach things at, and now this is the third better or more whole path.

Well, here's where I really, that's a great question, Tim. And by the way, there are no stupid questions 

Okay, thank you. By the way, this is why I love Lenore. She affirms me.

They're all good. so that's a great question because it also kind of hearkens back to something I think Jung was very good at helping us parse [00:08:00] out, but I wanna preface it by saying. You know, the way that we're talking about this here is very white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

Yes.

really wanna acknowledge this because I think our indigenous relations actually have always understood what we call, or Yung called a third thing or the third way. Eons before we woke up to this, and actually young admitted that some of his concepts were rounded out because of the amount of time he spent living and working amongst some indigenous peoples because he was fascinated by the way that they approached life and their whole psychological construct was different and often more effective.

For instance, I'll give you one. Like I met a Cree woman a number of years ago, and she said, you know, Lenore, we never worry about what we're supposed to do until we're about 60. We don't [00:09:00] stress out like you folks. And I said, why? She said, because in, in our, um, understanding you're an adolescent until you're 60.

But by common, by golly, by the time you're 60, you better know how you show up, what gifts you have, your journey, where it has brought you, how you can contribute to the community and the world. So you see there's that context. I just love this. So anyway, um, getting back to this, this. This where Carl Young talked about how sometimes, and I think this characterizes North American culture and society for the most part, is will prefer a certain function.

And he saw there being four functions. One is the intellectual, the other is the emotional. The other is a sensory based kind of body sensing, you know, uh, what we can conceive with our bodies, our, our senses. And then the other is [00:10:00] intuition or instinct in our culture here. I think in North America, we default to preferring the intellectual function in an extroverted way.

Because there's also two attitudes according to young, and one is extroverted and the other is introverted. We all have all of them as far as he was concerned, but we tend to kind of concoct something that we prefer. And so in answer to your specific question, a lot of the time we'll pick the thing that is familiar, you know, and that maybe has some.

Valid components, but it's just our easy, often knee jerk reaction of, oh, I'll just do this, you know, because that's what I've always done. Or I feel more comfortable this way. You know, God forbid that we suffer any kind of discomfort or [00:11:00] unfamiliarity. I mean, that's kind of the way we've been taught and wired and socialized.

Yeah.

Oftentimes in our culture, there's this other way, which is very emotive. You know, and it might include some of those somatic sense based kinds of data gathering tools. But the one thing that's very fascinating to me as I work with so many different people is that intuition and instinct is always present, but it's almost always thrown under the threshold. 

Hmm. 

In favor of intellect. And so in answer to your question, people can maybe come to a crossroads or a challenge and instead of understanding the intersectionality of all these aspects. What it means to be fully human and fully alive. We'll default to the one that feels the most familiar often. How can I figure it out?

How can I use my very brilliant mind to come up with a solution? Doesn't [00:12:00] necessarily have to be elegant in any way, shape or form. It's just, let's fix it. 'cause it's seen as something to be fixed within a 24 7 kind of landscape. The other might be this kind of very, uh, reactionary, emotive kind of response, you know, or reaction.

It could be a combo of both. Neither though on their own get us to the third wave. And sometimes there's one that we'll even avoid though it's kinda niggling in the background and we bypass it. So that's, that's a potentiality that is underserved, but it's present. So now we have this tension of opposites.

We could do it this way or we could do it this way, but neither way really is going to be informed by our authenticity. Our struggle, [00:13:00] and it's certainly usually gonna lead us to what is commodified, not 

Huh? Yeah. Okay. So yeah, this is, uh, my head's spinning right now, which I really like. I like when my head spins and it is not the whiskey yet. Okay. Let's be clear. So. Third way, if I'm gonna just process this for myself so I have a first way that I might default the way I want to go, the, the road I wanna take, I'll call it the road or path, the first path that I wanna approach things when I'm. problem solving. When I'm struggling, I have a first way I typically might wanna approach it. I might have then I might say, well, that, that's not getting it here. Then I choose a second path and I'm, I try to explore the problem. Maybe there, what I seldom realize is actually there's a third way.

There's a third path that might be an amalgam of something, but it's [00:14:00] actually. It actually is the path that I need forward, but it gets smothered in a lot of ways for me. Is that Am am I? Am I tracking

Yep. And often this third way is characterized by mystery and symbols, frequently dream imagery. although a lot of people report to me they can't remember their dreams, you'd be surprised how many remember snippets and that's all we need. But these are images that come from our unconscious as data points to give us additional information. We've missed that is a little more numinous in terms of, you know, it's hard to kind of grab onto. It's got that kind of, very mysterious, almost sometimes a little spiritual. Highly symbolic isn't obvious what it actually means. And I think the thing [00:15:00] that really characterizes the third way is curiosity and the need to wait. 

Huh. 

These are two things that in my humble opinion, in our culture, we have a very difficult time with.

You know, being curious is considered something sometimes for children only.

Yeah. 

They're expected to be playful, curious explorers, you know, little adventurers uncovering that thing under the rock and finding that there's a whole universe under there, you know, so we accept it on that level.

But curiosity it, it gets hard because it means you're gonna be different. You're going to think a little less conventionally. Usually you're going to probably also be one of those people who needs to kind of retreat a little, maybe, or wait. And that [00:16:00] leads me to the waiting. I mean, so often we don't like waiting in our day-to-day lives, you know?

We are. We hardly can stand it in, you know? A line of traffic and we certainly don't like to have to wait for solutions. And I think it's 'cause we're very pain averse or suffering averse, or just discomfort averse.

Yeah.

And yet. The waiting is so critical to this because it allows things to kind of cook and stew in that unconscious realm where it has a chance to lift itself up to intellect and to also take into account some of the feelings we might have about it and to honor it all, but to not rely solely on any one thing.

And I think that's really important, [00:17:00] 

you know, because I think we're addicted to quickness and, and the easy fix. That's just me. I know I'm more naturally wired to think that, but you know, the inability to wait. Is a kind of addiction. It's the addiction to, and I'm, I'm quoting the late Angel Zarian here.

She was an amazing cultural anthropologist. She said that the inability to wait is like an addiction because it's an addiction to the need to know.

Huh.

And the need to know often will co-opt us right like that. And we don't get a chance to kind of mine the depths. Of what is actually already in us as wisdom that, you know, needs to have time to kind of percolate and come up to the surface of our awareness.

[00:18:00] And you really borrowed from the whole alchemical process to describe this. It is not a short process.

Mm-hmm. Well, listen, since we're gonna honor the waiting process in this for a little bit here in the conversation, which I like, why don't we pause and have a drink.

Then if you're listening in, you can contemplate a little bit about what my good friend is challenging with. So I think it's time for a drink.

'cause you know what I found recently is that oftentimes I get my guests talking so much they don't get a chance to have a second drink on the show. So I'm gonna grab another drink. You grab a little drink and then we'll kind of, we'll come back in here.

Oh, look at my listeners are waiting. It's very good. I have a feeling they're waiting with bated breath. So, okay, so I wanna go back to some things you said, 'cause it's got me now it's starting to get me thinking a little bit. So, so first of all, as you describe that, I, what I'm [00:19:00] realizing I think about myself is that I'm curious.

Impatient. So I, I am curious, but I am impatient and the interesting thing you said is how impatience actually works against curiosity. That, that, I don't know if I really thought about how they interplay between the two. It's hard to remain curious while you. Excruciatingly impatient. So that's interesting that, so I'm processing that right now because that, I find that really interesting of how that can fight against, you know, one another.

I also think that, you know, if I'm really honest, I think that, I struggle at time with mystery. I, I like to have things buttoned up. You know, I, there's something magical about mystery, but to be very frank, uh, I, I wanna get beyond the smoke and through the [00:20:00] mirrors and, and through the curtain. I, I wanna get around, you know, the other side, and I wanna see who the Wizard of Oz is.

Like, I, I, you know, the, big man and the, oh, I'm the Wizard of Oz. Ah, that's the mystery. At the end of the day, I wanna know, Hey, it's just a little guy in the stool, but once you know he's the little guy in the stool, it's not very magical.

No, but you in that story, I love. Well, if we go to Wicked,

yeah.

you know, Felba is amazing because she's, she's kind of a character. And here we get into stories, legends and miss, you know, here's the second half of The Wizard of Oz is where we go to the Wicked Witch, you know, and we really start to get to understand that she's the embodiment of all the things. And yet she's also considered to be the greatest transgressor. And this is often what [00:21:00] happens when we become curious, when we are going after our own heart's desire in seeking the third way, 'cause some people do. And where we're willing to contend and to suffer. With the difficulty of the things that are not yet known or evident, 

you know, and so I, I would really lead the, your podcast participants.

If you have not, seen the First Wicked, you know, which I saw on the stage amazing, you know, years ago. But if you haven't seen the movie, I would highly suggest renting it and watching it from that angle. 'cause that character is archetypal about this, the conundrum of the third way.

That's

I I really love what you're saying here, Tim.

You [00:22:00] know Parker j Palmer? He's um, He's a social activist in the States. He's a lovely, lovely person and he is created, um, a whole series of circles of trust, which are all about developing community and trying to help people who have various points of view talk to one another. He talks about this, and it's not really the third way, but it's the way of the soul, you know, which is what we're working with here. As if it, you were walking into a beautiful, deep green, dark, but kind of unpredictable, a little scary forest. You know when you're walking on the path and you hear some rustling in the distance and you know that there's some creature in there and your curiosity is peaked. But Parker j Palmer says, you know.

If we go running toward that Palm [00:23:00] Mel, it will run to its own safety. You know, it will go under the threshold again and not be available to us. But if we sit and wait, it may come to us in this kind of dense. Thick forests that we're not maybe totally trusting or feeling totally comfortable in, but it is kind of magical, you know?

And so we can accept a certain measure of mystery, and I think this is where the transaction or the help of waiting comes in. It actually helps us to make this. Transaction, not that it's, you know, commodity, but to, to actually treat with ourselves, to slow down enough to 

say it's here, but if I go trying to pull it out, it's either gonna bite me 

or [00:24:00] I'm gonna chase it away, or I'm gonna run.

Yeah. So that's interesting. So would you generally say, and obviously generalities are problematic, but if, but would you generally say that the third way it's a way of waiting.

Wow. That's a great question. Let me consider that for a moment. I would have to say based on my own experience, the, narratives of others that I have the privilege of working with people I know who I admire and, you know, live and move and have my being with, but also in stories, , it often does require waiting as part of the strategy.

Interesting. You know, Lenore, I'm thinking about something as we're talking, and, and again, listeners, if you're listening in, I strongly encourage, I always do, to maybe pause a podcast, reflect, do [00:25:00] whatever you need to do, and as a reminder, I'm discovering this conversation as you are. A lot of times when I have conversations, I have a general knowledge maybe about what I'm gonna talk about or maybe I have more than a general knowledge.

In this case, I really, the third way was in. Really a new term to me. And I, now that you describe it, I think I understand it or I've, I've heard of it. I just haven't heard of it in this way. But, so I'm experiencing this also for the first time, which is, kind of fascinating for me. But one thing I'm thinking about in the, as we connect, maybe the third way as a waiting way, there's the waiting is almost the doorway or the opening.

You open the gate to the third way. Maybe through waiting, I'm thinking about, um. You know, the from, for those of you, uh, you know, for me come from a religious perspective or background. I'm thinking actually about a, a particular verse in the New Testament that describes this idea of waiting. And I'll, I'll, you know, I'm gonna, sort of paraphrase.

You know, I'm not gonna quote her verbatim, but [00:26:00] this idea that it's, this waiting is described at some point, an analogy, I think in the New Testament, like the waiting that happens when a woman's pregnant. And it talks about the, it's very poetic language. It says that as the woman waits, she is enlarged in the waiting.

And when you think of the metaphor, it's like the waiting period that night, that gestation period, as the waiting occurs, the enlargement. Comes a, a change of capacity, maybe something. Of course, now we have this, this woman has life now within her, and it's growing. It's expanding. But the, the phrase, which is interesting, she's enlarged in the waiting, there's this sense of enlargement, anticipation, greater capacity to do something or be something, or birth something.

It's a really interesting image, and as you're talking. I'm thinking about the connection of how, you know, [00:27:00] maybe part of the challenge of the first and second way is maybe there is a smallness in those ways and maybe through the waiting and finding that third way, there's an expansion or an enlargement of our heart, of our mind, of our capacity, of our, of our ability.

I just am, am connecting these dots in my head. They may, they might be un connectable, but I'm really finding it interesting

Yeah, and I mean. Look at you coming up with an image, you know, from, a sacred text story. You know, it's a story, but it's one we can all identify with because it gives us this larger symbol. And symbols are not like signs. They, they hold some mystery. They're not always, their meaning is not always readily available to us.

It takes some time for the meaning to unfold and for us to [00:28:00] become aware of the depth of what it includes. Just like what you just went through in the last moment here as you, you know, unpacking that that's exactly what was happening. You know, the mystery was starting to have its effect. As a result, you start perceiving something in a very different way, and even having to perceive an image and to unpack it a bit slows us down, doesn't it?

But it also has this beautiful thing of, you know, letting us dialogue with our deeper awareness that we may be coast over very quickly. And it comes back to us through an image or a symbol. But not only that, we start to see that this is connected to a much bigger human lived story. So we're not alone, you know, we're not isolated.

Certainly we have our own local story and we are within this larger [00:29:00] human story. And there's something really grounding about that. Very centering for people because. Across cultures, there are stories, characters, imagery that stand the test of time that are common to all and cross pollinate, so to speak.

And you can be speaking through a translator to somebody else about your favorite fairytale, and they'll have a very similar version of it in their home, country or hometown. Same imagery, you know, and this is Young's awareness of the collective unconscious, but also this transpersonal element. You know, that we're part of a much bigger cosmology here, and the gift within it is that we've been given these ways that help initiate us.

Into stepping beyond our own conventionality and our own limits. So exactly what you said, this enlarging [00:30:00] of capacity, this opening of the heart, this, this becoming more receptive to, okay, maybe I don't know yet, and maybe I don't understand that. There's something there and I know it. And that knowing is the intuition.

So that instinctual function stops being injured and it comes back online. And now we're working with not only, you know, intellect, emotion, body sensations, but the instinct and the intuition is online and it's we're functioning fully, and that's part of this entire process. On the journey toward wholeness, that these are the components that help open the third wave.

Yeah. Wow. Powerful. So, so lemme ask you, based on your experience, uh, your, your education as a psychotherapist, uh, your experience in your clinical work. would you say, and you may not be able to say, but would, would [00:31:00] you say potentially that wholeness is quite elusive? For the average homo sapien without finding the third way.

Yep. I'm biased though.

Huh? Fair enough. At least. Hey, listen, if you're biased and you know us, clap your hands. Hold on. We're biased. Yes, we are biased. Fair enough. And I appreciate that. so you would say yes, that your belief, okay, your belief. Both your educational understanding and your lived experience and belief of clinical work leads you to the proposition, the belief that actually wholeness becomes rather difficult and elusive unless one is patient enough to find the third way

to look at things and approach it.

yeah, and I think it's also sometimes not even about finding it, it's about letting yourself be [00:32:00] found,

which is harder, you know? And this is where our patients breaks down. I too struggle with this. From time to time, , I mean, I have a very vivid brain. I love my intellect and I can think my way out is several wet paper bags all at once.

You know, and that hasn't always served me well. You know, I also have the capacity for some very, , empathetic and deep running emotion tones that I can factor in to make better decisions. I'm usually online with my instincts and sometimes not so clued into my body, but more and more, you know, and so yet I still.

Miss it. And I think it's, this is where I like to also suggest that, sometimes we are found by it because we might have a dream

Yeah.

or, [00:33:00] and an image from that dream landscape just lingers with us. And I wanna remind people that. Dreams. I know some of them are scary, but I just want you to hold your judgment about those scary parts of your dreams and nightmares are different.

I'll get to that in a minute, but, you know, dream imagery is for the dreamer.

Hmm. 

My sister was a mind blowing dreamer. She used to dream every night vividly and she'd call me and tell me dreams. I'm like, who dreams like this? You know, it's, some people are just very awake. To that, you know, but it is an offering from your wisdom knower deep within during the sleep time when your ego defenses are a little more relaxed to offer you content in a mysterious fashion because it knows it's gonna catch your attention and bug you [00:34:00] or captivate you. Or something mixed in between and that it's gonna linger. Even if you think you can't remember it, it might come sailing or floating back to you days later and you think, oh yeah, I had this dream and this weird thing was in it. You know? And that is the souls or psyches quest toward our. Day-to-day functioning.

And I'm not saying that's bad. We need to use our egos to do our thing, you know? But it is an invitation to the way we present on a daily basis to say, Hey, could you take a minute and just ponder this and look at this mystery as confounding as it is, because there's a golden key in here about who you really are.

What you really want, where that happens for you when that happens for [00:35:00] you. And that is your journey toward wholeness.

That's the third way coming right to you. And, and so, you know, I just wanna say in context here too, people who have nightmares, often there's trauma. I want to gently but clearly say, it will help you if you get a good therapist too.

come alongside you to process that. Chronic nightmares are no fun. I used to have them too, same time every night for a few years in a row, couldn't figure out what it was, and then I figured it out. , But I had a therapist who helped me figure it out, you know? But nightmares, even Carl Young said, because he had some patients who had real difficulty with nightmares.

He took it to a symbolic image. To take the edge off a 

bit, you know What is a Tim? What is a mare? It's a [00:36:00] female horse, right? Yep. So Jung said a nightmare is the mare that you are riding to dawn

Huh. Wow,

I remember the first time I heard that. I heard it from a Jungian analyst when I was still kind of gripped by this same nightmare every single night, and it lifted something off of me to have that symbol brought to me.

And I know I'm more of a visual creature, even the, the narrative descriptive language that she used to share that in this small group we were in. Blazing itself in my mind's eye as an image, you know, of this, me riding on the back of this black mare as the dawn is breaking far in the distance. It's like, you know what?

Don't, don't be fooled by the, the dark blackness. You're moving [00:37:00] through this. That is what a nightmare is for,

You know, that's just, yeah. That's powerful. Um, I mean, I've got so many things going through my head right now. And, and by the way, if, for those of you listening in, you may have listened. I did a podcast a long time ago and I think it's entitled something like, everybody Needs a Coach and a Therapist.

So if you listen to that, you know, my belief on this too. So, so a couple things are stirring in me, first of all, and I just wanna tuck into what you just said about nightmares, which is interesting. So, uh, yesterday, which isn't yesterday when you hear this podcast, but yesterday, A time now gone.

, I spent some time with a good friend of mine, Terry Black, who is, is just an amazing creative creature, and, , filmmaker and artist and provocateur and a great friend and provocateur of me. And I was over at his studio yesterday and, um, he was showing me some new editing he had done on a film he is working on.

And. Terry is, uh, so Terry is original courier. He [00:38:00] was in marketing and magazine He was a creative director and he was very crafty copywriter. So Terry understands the art of words. And, uh, so we're, in his studio and his studio is a theater where he does screenings.

And he says to me, he says, oh, let me just turn up the darkness. Well, when he said this, I just held it in my mind and then he turned up the darkness and then the film comes on and after he, you know, the lights came on and he, Terry is very theatrical. He's now sitting in his director's chair here on the side talking to me and I said, Terry, I just, the whole time I just couldn't get this phrase outta my mind.

I said, you turned up the darkness so I could see the light and it just. Like pierced my soul, like, and his, just his craftiness. Oh, oh, let me just turn up the darkness. 

I love that. 

I, anyway, so, so I'm just, I'm, I'm resonating what, with what you just said

I love that. 'cause [00:39:00] that's kind of the sneakiness of the mystery you were talking about a few moments ago, you know, is that this is, this third way is characterized by the symbolic, the numinous, the not easily available to our understanding or immediately understood. You know, and we have to tolerate some of that, you know, turning up the darkness.

I love that because you know also from the sacred text that, that you quoted earlier in the Old Testament of that text, there is a very obscure verse that I wish more people knew about. I think it might be in Isaiah and, and in it. You know, the, the Supreme being says, I will give you the treasures of the darkness.

Huh.

Now, how are you gonna get the treasures of the darkness if you aren't willing to actually go there and wait?

Yeah.[00:40:00] 

And it's tricky because anybody who's been in pitch blackness, I was tossed into pitch blackness the other day in an appointment. Their power went down and the generator didn't kick in.

And this said an office with no windows, you know, and it was like sudden blackness. And I thought, oh, I have to take a breath. Ooh, okay. And there is something really, available to us. And we're encased and enveloped in darkness. You know,

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I, tell you, very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. Now there's a couple other thoughts that I'm having, and then I wanna make sure that people who might wanna connect with you, have an opportunity to figure out how they might do that. Um, so. a couple things are also sort ruminating in my small little P brain right now.

so something else you said, which is just really interesting. You talked about this idea of going down this path and maybe there's a creature over [00:41:00] here and in the, you know, in the, bush and if you, if I rush in, it might run away or it might eat me. But if I actually just sat on the path and I just let it come to me.

I just thought that was interesting, and I'm thinking a lot about that because I, I think that, that's really, really hard to do. Like, just letting whatever needs to come out of the, the woods just letting it come to you. Again, there's the waiting again, letting it come to you and then encountering it.

That's really interesting. And maybe part of, again, I think our impatience, you know, sometimes we have maybe problems in our lives and we want them fixed now. Uh, we have barriers. We have something, we have blockage, we have whatever. And we have this idea that I, I'm gonna get it fixed now and maybe sometimes just isn't the right time.

And that just, maybe there's a, there's a time. sort of [00:42:00] coefficient here. Sometimes, sometimes maybe I wanna rush into the woods and find this thing and slay it when it's not the right time. And so I'm thinking a little bit about this. I'm playing that in my mind that, you know what, when I discover a foible that I have and I say I'm ready to slay it.

Maybe sometimes it's hard to slay or it's unsayable because it's not the time of, its, its, time of its death has not yet appeared maybe.

Yeah. Or the third way, way of thinking about it would be maybe it doesn't need to be slain.

Oh

You see, the first reaction is to say, I gotta get rid of this.

When in point of fact, the second thing would be to go, I have to get honest about how this makes me feel. It makes me wanna avoid it and get rid of it, right?

So now we're left with seeing these two ways I wanna avoid and I wanna get rid of it. I have the power to do [00:43:00] both, and those would be a quick fix. You know? However, if I could create a little bit of. Allowance of distress tolerance we call it. You know, to just be exposed to that. Holding the tension, Jung called it, you know?

And Parker, j Palmer has also written a fair bit about it in his books because he follows some of this approach and he writes about it beautifully. But then that waiting allows us to say, maybe that thing I wanna slay is. Now I'm borrowing from the words of Sena Frosts, also influenced by young who developed the soul collage process, which I use. Maybe it's an ally in disguise. Maybe it is a challenging energy because it needs to get my attention, but it turns out to be. The very thing that is the [00:44:00] treasure in the darkness handing me the treasure in the darkness saying, I really am your friend. I just want you to see this part because you kicking against it is actually gonna show you something that you really need to know.

Oh

in that regard, it becomes a teacher and a guide. And then you have the third way opening. And now you can honestly say, I've been so stressed out about, I've been wanting to avoid it. It scares me. It makes me mad or it makes me sad. The real foundational emotion tones, being able to get really right, honest about that, and we come home to ourselves there.

We come to our authentic self 'cause we're not lying to anybody anymore, not even ourselves. And we're willing to open and enlarge to the possibility that I'm developing an expanded capacity for something I would normally have slain, but actually. Is handing me the [00:45:00] sword

Yeah.

is saying, I know This is not something you don't need to kill me.

I'm handing you the sword and actually what I'm handing you is actually a surgical knife because you're gonna need a very fine blade to kind of carve through that so that you can make your way so that it's a clean incision so that you can make your way through. Just to adopt your imagery.

Oh my gosh. You know what? I seriously, this is like a very good therapy session. This is really good by the way. And you know, just what you said there is just so powerful. ' cause I. Realize as you described that, again, my idea was I gotta slay that. But you're saying, Hey, Tim, actually that might not be your enemy, that might be your ally. And if you waited long enough to understand and let it come out and encounter you. Yeah. I mean, it's just, okay, So again, if you're listening in, you're still here for a reason. I always say that. [00:46:00] So I don't know why you're here. But you're here for a reason. Don't forget that, listeners. Okay, so I got one other question and then we're gonna sort of bring this in for landing.

So, okay, so while we're talking, I'm getting the sense, and I, again, I know there's no wrong questions, but there could be some wrong conclusions, so Fair enough. So, I'm thinking about great writers who, who great tellers. Particularly tellers of wonderful fantasy like token, like CS Lewis, you know, this inkling group.

So I'm getting the sense that they either had a very, very powerful understanding of all the things we're talking about, or they, they brailed themselves into something they didn't really understand. I don't know which it was, but when I start thinking about their tails. and I think, let's say, we'll talk about the Lord of the Rings, for instance, and look at all of that interplay.

I get the sense that these are masterful stories of the third wave.[00:47:00] 

Yes, they are just about every side character storyline in. And again, I'm biased ' cause I love that book. I've been reading it frequently since I was 14. Um, but just about every one will give you a third way. Every character is presented with dire choices. You know, that have dire outcomes, 

you know, and I mean, and even the movie will be enough for you Togally connect with it.

She'll start to see it emerge. But you know, let's look at R one. Okay, let's look at her. You know, so. Here's someone who has a, she's eternal. She's an eternal being, everlasting life. She gives it to the man she loves, you know, represented by this kind of amulet pendant. And she takes on a [00:48:00] mortal life knowing that this puts her in a really tragic situation.

You know, and yet here she is and all through the movie, you know, we're watching this really significant character, , who was modeled on Tolkien's wife. You know, not have to pick up a sword to show she's strong.

Huh?

That's a third way. And even Luke Tyler, who is the actress who played Arwin, said that. That they were trying to get her all suited up and armored up and kind of insert her into scenes where it was not part of Tolkien's story, but in the magic of movie Hollywood, whatever. They tried to do that to kind of keep the audience's interest when they finally parsed it out, you know, Jackson and the team along with her discerned that it wasn't in the original story for a reason.

[00:49:00] Because Arwin is a third way,

Huh.

she embodies a third way, not having to pick up a sword.

Hmm.

Being able to go after her heart's desire so strongly and keep her heart open to say, Reforge the sword and get it in the hands of the right person. Like, you know, when you look at this stuff, you just, you do, you look at some of these great stories and they weren't masterful, but I think that the key was. They weren't afraid to go into the realm of the mystical and the imaginative. They weren't afraid to go into the realm of story and fairytale and imagery and, and almost in the having this kind of dreamlike, numinous quality that threads all the way through that keeps us as viewers, or readers just completely hooked.[00:50:00] 

It's calling to, and here's the function that gets less time, and I would love to see it lifted up. Our intuition, our instinct, knows that there is something there that offers guidance,

Yeah.

you know, and we gravitate toward it because it helps.

Yeah.

And yes, there have been many voices that say, oh, that's childish, or, oh, that's flaky, or, oh, that's too esoteric, or whatever the judgment is.

And yet you and I both and many of your listeners have all had experiences where something kind of tweaked and it was not quantifiable. Was maybe even from a movie or a story or a just a scene that stuck with you, and it was just filled with this instinctual, helpful information, data that becomes [00:51:00] this guidance that awaits us to hope, illumination.

Greater capacity to love to be engaged in the world as it is. And my goodness, what a world we're in right now.

Yeah. 

You know, we 

are needed. 

Yeah. Yeah, we are. And uh, the third way, as you said, doesn't pick up the sword, which we will We'll, we'll leave that one there for people to climb by. So again, first of all, what a Wonderful conversation. Privileged, sacred, powerful, provocative. I mean, just, I could use a lot of different adjectives to describe this conversation, um, as every conversation that I have with you, Lenore, is, and again, if you're listening in, you're listening into a conversation, a kind of conversation that Lenore and myself and my wife Pam, and other friends of ours have had for years with.

With Lenoir, which is, these are the kind of conversations we have [00:52:00] actually over dinner or when we chat, and that's what I love about the depth of the relationship and the friendship and the, the encouragement that comes from knowing somebody, journeying with them, watching you and your own journey, Lenoir.

And, you know, also, I mean, I just. For those of you again who don't know Lenore very well. I mean, one of the things, Lenore, that I have just, just deep respect is that you've always had this desire towards the mystical and to know the unknowable and while also. Becoming very practical and pragmatic about pursuing tremendously, difficult and powerful education and putting good understanding and education to the ideas that you had.

And it just this wonderful amalgam that I have a lot of deep respect for. And I just wanna say that. I mean, I love it. Again, if you're listening in, you're always listening in for a reason. I say that and I don't know why you're, if you're still listening in, I don't know why. You're gonna figure that out.

that'll be the third way [00:53:00] for you in this conversation. So, Lenar, you know, if people did want to connect with you, and have a further conversation, maybe they wanna explore, uh, some connection with you, therapeutically or what, whatever they, that would be, what's the best way for them to try to, to connect with you?

So, you know, I've kind of, um, pared it all down and I just use my Psychology Today website page. So if you Google Psychology today, Canada. And you go to St. Catherine's therapist, Lenore Walker. 'cause there is another doctor, Lenore Walker, who has done amazing work. But I'm not Dr. Lenore Walker. So you have to put Lenore Walker, St.

Catherine's in Psychology today, and then it will come up and you'll see my whole profile there and a safe way to reach me that's protected through that site.

Okay. Awesome. That's a great encouragement. So, so Lenore, I'm gonna give you the last word I usually get the last word, but not in this conversation. So [00:54:00] I'm gonna give you the last word. So, so you have one last word to people who are still with us. Okay. Which is the brave and the few. Okay.

They're still with us, Lenore, so they're here for a reason.

Yeah.

So what's your final encouragement or provocation to them and. When you're done, I will just put a period on it when we're finished.

would say if it's opening up to you and you're starting to realize, this really appeals to you because you've been leaning toward searching for your own third way, hang in there. This is not for the faint of cart. you will upset the people around you because you know, dare I say it, misery loves company.

And when you start breaking with some of those patterns. [00:55:00] You may disrupt things and become more of a target. So be careful there. Be full of thought and full of care for yourself. And yet, continue on the journey. You know, let what moves you, move you. And don't dismiss images or symbols that stand out to you.

And I'm not talking about signs. I'm talking about these new men. Symbols, they're different, you know? And to stay with it and be willing to give yourself the gift of coming home to yourself, because that's what's happening here. When you're on the third way, you're coming home to yourself, and we need that self.

The world is bereft of too many people who have kind of. For one reason or another by force or circumstance, had to bail a [00:56:00] bit. I just wanna encourage your listeners to stay with it. you'll get there. you can do this.

Powerful provocation. I'm gonna resist The temptation to add to that. And I'm just gonna say thank you so much for listening today, listeners. Cheers. Have a wonderful third way day.