BEYOND BREAKUP: UNCORKED with BILL KOONTZ

What if the most painful ending of your life was actually the doorway to a deeper beginning? What if divorce were not proof that you are broken, disqualified, or beyond repair but an invitation to reclaim wholeness, dignity, and hope on the other side of profound loss? 

In this deeply human and courageous UNCORKED conversation, Tim Windsor sits down with Bill Koontz to step straight into one of life’s most avoided and misunderstood experiences and to dismantle the lie that divorce is the end of the story. Together, they explore the ache, grief, anger, and shame that so often accompany divorce, while refusing to let those forces have the final word.

Bill shares his own raw journey through divorce, false accusations, estrangement from his children, and years of rebuilding identity and trust. From that lived experience, he offers a grounded, compassionate framework for healing that goes far beyond mere survival. The conversation unpacks why divorce wounds so deeply through loss of companionship, intimacy, and identity and why denial, blame, shame, and untreated anger quietly keep people stuck. Tim and Bill also confront the hidden realities few talk about, including depression, suicidal thoughts, and the destructive power of shame, and they replace silence with honesty, grace, and practical wisdom.

Listeners will walk away with clear, actionable insights, including a robust five-step process for breaking free from shame, reframing forgiveness as liberation rather than excusing harm, and a renewed sense that healing is possible even after devastating loss. This episode is not soft, sentimental, or abstract. It is real, hopeful, and deeply human. Whether you are navigating divorce yourself, walking alongside someone who is, or simply want to understand how people rebuild after life fractures, this conversation will challenge your assumptions and remind you that beyond the rubble, something wonderful can be built.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

Tim Windsor: What if the end or breakdown of a marriage wasn't the end for you or your family, but the beginning of a different kind of healing you never thought would be possible? What if the rubble of a relationship that's been ruined could become the raw materials for building a self that's deeper, stronger, kinder, and even more courageous than the one who entered into that relationship?

Divorce is a way of convincing people that they're broken, irreparably, broken, ruined, or disqualified from joy, but maybe that's the biggest lie that they might ever believe. If you're in that situation today, we're stepping right into the middle of that lie. We're we're also stepping into the ache, the questions, the grief, the pain of divorce, but also the hidden hope that lies within it, that hope of understanding that you can move through divorce.

Not just survive, but you can thrive on the other [00:01:00] side because there's a difference between moving out of a marriage and actually moving into the real self that you are. My guest today refuses to let people settle for a story that ends this way, that divorces the end for them and their story. He's on a mission to help them find wholeness healing, a reclaimed identity.

On the other side of that event, he's walked this road, he's guided others down it, and he brings a perspective that's honest, compassionate. Wonderfully hopeful. Hey my friends. Welcome back to the Unmodified podcast. I'm Tim Windsor, and today my guest on the show is Bill Koontz. Bill, welcome to the

Bill Koontz: Oh, thanks Tim. It's a delight to be here. I've been looking

Tim Windsor: Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun, really.

I'm looking forward to this conversation and I'll explain how we met as we get through it. But a bit about Bill for you over your listening in. Bill has an anniversary that he is never celebrated. That's the day his marriage ended. But instead of letting that moment define and destroy him. He turned it into a mission in 1990.

He founded Divorce and Beyond an organization that's [00:02:00] provided hope and a pathway to healthy recovery, to thousands of adults and hundreds of children dealing with divorces, anxieties, and fears. Bill's personal experience. Navigating divorce still fuels his work. Today, bill and his team offer people a grounded, compassionate, and deeply practical roadmap for moving forward.

Not just recovering, but rebuilding with purpose, confidence, and a renewed sense of self. I think it's time for a drink, my friend, 'cause this is an UN commodified podcast. So now that we're into a deep subject, I'm, I definitely need a drink, so we're gonna do

Bill Koontz: I have mine in a housed in a Yeti because

Tim Windsor: I love it. What? What do you 

Bill Koontz: I like my hot stuff hot and my cold stuff cold.

Tim Windsor: I love it. What do you got in that Yeti bill?

Bill Koontz: a mic lobe.

Tim Windsor: Oh, you got milk lobe. That's good beer. I'm gonna drink an IPAA single hopped IPA from a microbrewery. I gotta be careful. Last time I did this when I was podcasting, it went all over the place, so I gotta be, oh, that did it again. [00:03:00] Oh my gosh. Hold on here, bill. I got beer all over me.

It's all over my 

Bill Koontz: You're not only drinking it, you're wearing it. Huh?

Tim Windsor: I don't know why that happened, but it's everywhere in my studio. Hold on a second here. Okay, take

Bill Koontz: All right,

Tim Windsor: Hmm. There you go. Bill. I'm gonna drink my beer, but I got it all over me.

Bill Koontz: well, you know what? Next time you put it in a Yeti,

Tim Windsor: you know what Bill I, I'm not as wise as you.

I should have put it in a Yeti 'cause it's all over my pants now. But that's all good. That's fine. You know, life is a little messy sometimes and so is the subject matter that we are going to be talking about

tonight. So Bill, really appreciate, uh, connecting with you. Uh, full disclosure for you, if you're listening in, my connection to Bill is actually through a good friend of mine, Barry Long, who had on the podcast recently.

If you didn't listen to that episode that I had with Barry, you should, listen to it. It's a great conversation. About discovering new ways of living outside of the safety of the [00:04:00] pool and into the ocean. Great conversation. If you didn't listen to it, you should, but, uh, Barry introduced Bill and I and, and it was a great conversation and I wanted to have it with all of you listeners and with Bill.

So Bill, we're gonna explore this subject about divorce and getting on the other side of it and recovering and finding wholeness. It's a big subject, it's a difficult subject. And again, if you're listening in just a bit of a warning, you know, for some of you this might trigger some really difficult feelings.

Maybe where you are, where you might be or where you have been. So, uh, please listen and listen with a gracious intent to yourself as you listen in. 'cause it's, it's gonna be, I think, a little bit of a challenging conversation. But, so let's start it this way. Bill, tell us a little bit about your journey and also.

As we move through this, you know, why do you think we all need to be maybe a little bit more compassionate, find a little more compassionate viewpoint upon which to look at this subject and this, this issue in our lives and in our society. But what's your journey, bill?

Bill Koontz: Yeah, so [00:05:00] my journey starts, uh, at age 11. That's not when I got married. Uh, that's when my parents got divorced.

Tim Windsor: Okay.

Bill Koontz: Uh, after that as I reflected back on, 'cause at the time of 11, I didn't really realize these things. But when I reflected back on that in my later years, I realized that , other people began to regard us as different.

Tim Windsor: Mm-hmm.

Bill Koontz: This was in the sixties, so, you know, I, I'm, I'm, it dates me, , but it is a time when divorces were even less common than they are now. so a single parent, um, we lived on a minor income. I took up a paper route job when I was 12 to help support the family, and people. I just felt that people began to look at me and us differently.

You know, I was, I was now a, a kid, who was kind of damaged and, and probably not going to succeed. a kid [00:06:00] who was now an underdog. So, I, I worked through all that. not, well, not all that, not all the, we never do. Right. Uh, but I began to work through that stuff and I made a determination, when I got married that that would never happen to me.

I would never, I would never put my kids, through that, assuming I would have kids. And I did. So I got married. I was 23, And, um, my wife was 22. She had just graduated from college. and, uh, soon after our vows were taken, we began to have problems. And I'm not going to go into all the detail of that unless you, you know, lead me to that direction.

But, we, we struggled for about 11 years. Yeah.

Tim Windsor: Hmm.

Bill Koontz: And, and then we went to counseling. We read stuff, we went on retreats. We, you know, we, we dated, we, uh, vacationed, you know, we, we [00:07:00] did the things that you would normally think could continue to breathe life into a marriage relationship. But it didn't. Uh, in the end it did not.

And so after 12 years, she filed for divorce. and. That turned out to be the most traumatic experience of my life. Um, I was actually a pastor at the time. 

Um, and so in the space of three months, I lost my marriage. Uh, I lost my career job. Uh, and I, I, I did it because I resigned. I, I felt, I didn't feel like I was capable of leading in that regard any longer.

and then thirdly, uh, I lost my relationship with my kids for a long time, and it was very painful. Um, unfortunately, about three weeks after she filed for divorce, she also accused me, made [00:08:00] accusations of me, , that were completely unfounded, but very derogatory, especially in relationship to my kids and other people.

And so, um. My kids swallowed it. Hook, lion, singer. They were four and eight at the time. and, and following that, um, we went into a, about a 15 year period where they believed everything their mom had told them. and I was not allowed, I, I was not given rooms, not that I wasn't allowed, I wasn't given the room to be able to convey to them.

My side of the story. so

Tim Windsor: Whew.

Bill Koontz: at that point, about 15 years later, my, uh, son, who was eight at the time, 23, 15 years later, went through his divorce. 

He got married, uh, between his, sophomore and junior in college. I wasn't invited to his high school graduation. I wasn't invited to his [00:09:00] wedding. there was a lot of pain.

In there for both of us. but after he got divorced, his, it kind of opened his eyes like, wow, this is, this is not the experience that I had wanted in my marriage. And, and gosh, I wonder, he started to reflect about his, uh, mom and dad, myself, our marriage, and began to take a little bit different view.

And so I came out one weekend, I flew out to Connecticut where he is living. Spent the weekend with him in an apartment and we talked, for the first time about the circumstances that led up to, uh, our divorce. And, because I had been, I was a youth and young adult pastor at church, but because I was part of the church, uh, the church felt a need to do its own investigation into the allegations that my ex-wife had.

uh, leveled at me. And, [00:10:00] um, the church did interviews. They did their own study. They concluded that there was no basis to the allegations. Uh, so we, we reviewed those things and, uh, and he said, you know, dad, this has been really, really helpful. and a month later he called me. He said, you know, dad, I, I've concluded that.

You're innocent of those things that mom had told me all these years about you. And, um, so that then began a next 20 year journey now, of healing and reconciliation between we are, we are wonderful father and son relationship. so that's a bit about my journey and, , the pain of my. Divorce about three years after the divorce, came to light for Barry.

Barry and I were good friends, played racquetball together every other week. And one week he, um, mentioned to me, he said, Hey Bill, [00:11:00] I know some people who are going through a divorce. It's really been hard. Would you mind just sitting down with them and, and talking with them about what worked for you, what didn't work for you, and kind of your journey?

And I said, hell no. I was not in any place at that point to be able to do that. He asked me again a year later and I said, you know, let me, yeah, let me think about that. Let me pray about that. So, uh, I did and I sat down with about, I think it was about six couples,

Tim Windsor: Mm.

Bill Koontz: not couples, six individuals representing six couples.

Tim Windsor: Yeah.

Bill Koontz: that became the beginning of what's now become divorce and beyond. And we've had, as you said, over 5,000 people go through it now, and hundreds of kids. And, it just birthed a, a sense of calling in me a sense of deep purpose about how do we help people who have gone through a divorce, recover, heal, and [00:12:00] grow?

You know, and that's, that's why the title of the book is Divorce and Beyond.

Tim Windsor: Yeah, and, and listen. So again, if you're listening in as you hear. Bill's story and we'll talk about our stories tonight. You might have a story that you're thinking about too, and again, I would encourage you that, you know, you may don't know where you are in the story. I don't know what chapter you are, but you know, you might have found great wholeness on the other side of divorce or in the midst of it, or you may still be looking for it, but I'd encourage you.

To, uh, to do the thinking that you need to do as a result of this conversation. You know, maybe f find Bill's book. It's a great book. and, and we'll talk later about how you might connect with Bill and his organization, if that was something that could work for you as well. But thanks also just for your deep honesty and communication.

I, I do have a question, uh, as you've talked about this, and again, listeners, you know that I, we don't. I don't pre rehearse my conversations. It's just not the way we do that. We have an idea [00:13:00] that we're gonna explore and we explore it together. And so I often say to my guests, when I send them an email, is the conversation we're supposed to have will find us along the way.

It's sort of the way I look at these things. So I, I do have a question because you, you've referenced that you came from a, a faith tradition. You were a pastor in a church. This, this event happens. so I'm interested to know, so if you look at. A person who maybe is part of a faith community, uh, regardless of that faith community, a part of faith community or somebody who isn't, is the impacted divorce the same or is there special circumstances that come to bear when you're part of a community that might have either a, a really. Positive way of framing a very negative experience, or frankly, maybe more often, not a bit of a more negative perspective on that does that make it harder for people in your experience as you, your own experience, but also the [00:14:00] people that you've connected with over the years, is it harder for them because of the weight that it puts on their, their soul because of their life perspective and their sense of faith?

Bill Koontz: Yeah, I'd start by saying that, uh, there's more similarities than there are differences. the breakdown of a marriage. Is painful regardless of whether you entered into it through, um, a, a spiritual covenant and faith, perspective. obviously one of the things that makes that particularly troublesome is the fact that you have, from a faith perspective, you've entered into a covenant before God.

And so when you fail in the midst of that covenant, when that covenant is broken, there is a, an additional layer of guilt and shame [00:15:00] that people often need to deal with. And, and that's true in terms of if they're active in a faith community, they, that faith community may be, uh, a wonderfully grace oriented, supportive.

Uh, we want to help you heal, kind of community. More often than not, it's not that. Um, and so then that becomes even, a deeper sense, uh, or adds to the sense of guilt and shame that you feel. And most people, uh, that we work with who have been in the church, leave the church

because of their divorce.

'cause they don't feel, they feel like they got a big scarlet de. On their forehead that everybody else sees and, and they feel a sense of unworthiness, a sense of critical spirit, a sense of you failed. and, and they can't deal with it. They don't want to. And so they leave. That's their way of dealing with it, is to [00:16:00] leave.

And they, and many times they'll find another church

Tim Windsor: Right.

Bill Koontz: where they can feel like they can start over, uh, but sometimes not. Sometimes they, that just is the. The straw that breaks the camel's back for them.

Tim Windsor: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I can appreciate that and I can see that obviously divorce is difficult regardless of whether you come from a faith tradition or not. 'cause that fracturing is a deep wound, but. As you said, there's a another layer of complexity when a person has a religious conviction around this experience, that becomes obviously even more difficult for people.

So, so I'm interested as you start. understanding that maybe you have a calling into a community of people that you can identify with because of your experience. You have some understanding and some things you learn, some lessons you learn and some mechanisms you learn through the process. You now start sharing these with people.

You get this sense of calling. At what point do you start to [00:17:00] sort of get that sense? You know, maybe the rest of my life's work in some ways is going to be tucked into this community of people that needs a gracious intention expressed towards them.

Bill Koontz: Yeah. Well, um, well, I, if, if I can, I'd like to go back to your other question and kind of finish that. 

Um, I'd like to, I, I started by saying that there's more similarities than there are differences.

Tim Windsor: Yes.

Bill Koontz: And, and I, I'd like to highlight those similarities because those will, those will transfer to every single person in your audience, who's been through a divorce, or people who care for somebody who's been through a divorce.

Like, how, how do I understand what they're going through? So, um, I mentioned the Breaking of Covenant as being one of those that's kind of unique to the religious, faith community. But the two that are common with all, [00:18:00] and that is, that sense of loss of companionship, you know, when you marry somebody.

And Tim, I, I talked to you a little bit. I know you've been married for 40 years. Congratulations.

Tim Windsor: Yeah, it's almost 40 years. I got, I was a child groom.

Bill Koontz: yeah. I can tell your wife has kept you looking young.

Tim Windsor: Well, I don't know about that, but she, she's definitely kept

Bill Koontz: Yeah. Yeah. so when you marry someone, you marry them almost always, because this person has become your very best friend, your closest ally, the person who you have borne your heart to the person who knows more about you than anybody else. And that we call that companionship in the book,

and the companionship that you experience in marriage is unlike any other [00:19:00] companionship in life.

And so when that begins to be violated, when that companionship begins to break down, you feel terribly exposed.

Tim Windsor: Hm.

Bill Koontz: The the things that. You would've hoped, would've never been said about you may have been said. Now,

Tim Windsor: Mm-hmm.

Bill Koontz: secrets that only your spouse knew may now be secrets to others.

Tim Windsor: Mm-hmm.

Bill Koontz: Um, you may feel like that the person you married has rejected you, has no longer found you to be worth being a friend.

And it goes both ways. It doesn't matter who's filed and who hasn't filed. I mean, those are all kind of gymnastics, legal gymnastics. But what we're talking, what we want to help people to focus on is what's going on inside of each person who goes through this. And, and I found that some people [00:20:00] just rather live in denial.

Tim Windsor: Mm.

Bill Koontz: And so they, uh, they try to treat their hurt. but in other ways than actually dealing with it, acknowledging it, working with it, healing it, moving on from it, you know, they medicate it, they do all kinds of stuff to try to, uh, just keep it tucked away nice and neatly where they don't have to look at it anymore.

So one of them is companionship, the other one is consummation. You know, sex is an important part. Of any marriage. the sex drive is kind of, is always a part of what brings two people together. And when those sexual ties have been broken, maybe while you've been married, that is extremely painful.

it feels like you have been. You know, when you, when you are in marriage and you are [00:21:00] enjoying one another's physical intimacy, you're completely naked with one another. You're completely naked, physically, emotionally, mentally, and the rush of the experience. the hormonal part of that experience, the, the sense of meaningfulness and, and joy and satisfaction.

I mean, all of that when that breaks down, oh my gosh. That's why we say there are reasons why divorce is so hard, and they start with, this is what marriage is about. It's about deep companionship. It's about intimate consummation and when those things are no longer, that's why divorce is hard.

Tim Windsor: Yeah. And well, yeah, and that's, uh, very powerful. And that's just very true. So, people encounter this moment of tremendous [00:22:00] difficulty, and they, whether they instigated the decision or they're just enduring the decision, now they, they wanna figure out how to walk 

Bill Koontz: Mm-hmm. 

Tim Windsor: Obviously, this is where you and your team have. Lots of experience and expertise. So how do people start walking forward and finding a new sense of wholeness either in themselves in a new season of singleness? and or into how do they find themselves then into another trusting, committed relationship, which I imagine has to be just really difficult.

I, I have, to be very honest, I, you know, my wife and I have, have very honest conversations about life and about. Lots of different things and you know, we've talked about some of these things and talked through them even though, you know, we've never experienced this, but I'm not sure I would ever get married again.

Bill Koontz: Mm-hmm. 

Tim Windsor: To be honest, I don't [00:23:00] know what I would do, but I don't know how I could do it. And so how do people, how did you, how do others, and how do you equip others to find wholeness somehow in themselves and then move into a season where they can walk into any relationship with a sense of not being so wounded that they're, they can't 

Bill Koontz: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question and it's a very complicated question. Because divorce is different for every single marriage. I compare it to a car wreck. No two car wrecks are alike. 

You know, some of 'em, some people walk away from their car wrecks with minor injuries. Some people end up in ICUs and emergency rooms and barely survive, uh,

Tim Windsor: Yeah.

Bill Koontz: and everywhere in between.

So, the journey to recovery and growth, healing and growth. is a bit different for every single person because their divorce has been different because they're, they're [00:24:00] unique individual in this broken, uh, place. But there are some very common themes, and those are the ones that we, we try to, unpack for people.

Uh, the first one is that, people have to come out of denial. 

when you are dealing with that level of pain and hurt and, and really, I call it trauma because for me, I, I think I may have mentioned it was the most traumatic experience in my life. which, which by the way, because I'm just a little PS asterisk.

I, if you walk through healing and growth, well, it prepares you for future trauma. It really does. And I, I can talk about that later. But, so the first step is to really come out of denial. and, and we can't do that on our own. Uh, I dunno if you're familiar with the Johari window, but it talks about the fact that, you know, there's this part of us that's known to us and known to others.

Part of us is known, just known to others. Part of [00:25:00] us is known to us, and others do have insights into who we are and what we're struggling with. People that know us well. And they can be very valuable at helping us identify things that we don't want to see.

Tim Windsor: Hmm.

Bill Koontz: we coach every single person. It doesn't matter if your spouse committed some act that blew the marriage up.

It doesn't matter. What matters is that you come to terms with how did it break you? What's the brokenness you brought into the marriage? Because we all do.

Tim Windsor: Mm-hmm.

Bill Koontz: And how did you contribute to the breakdown? Sure, you can, blame, you know, your spouse, but that's simply, uh, a form of denial 

is blaming, is a form of denial.

It's like, it's your responsibility, it's not mine. And so we try to coach people how to come out of denial. We, uh, and that happens a lot as we do a seminar, a one day [00:26:00] seminar. We have people round tables. And they begin to talk in between the presentations. We try to help them just slowly begin to emerge out of this cocoon that a lot of people put themselves in, spin around themselves to protect themselves. and then that's followed by our 13 week support groups and in those support groups. Oh my gosh. People begin to really let it down and they hear other people's stories and it begins to bring insights into their own lives. And as they watch the videos that are part of our, recovery groups, as they read, they, uh, they begin to understand a whole lot more, who they are in an UNcommodified way, who they are.

What they brought to the marriage that led to and contributed to the marriage not working.

Tim Windsor: Hmm.

Bill Koontz: [00:27:00] And so coming out of denial is huge. The second thing is that most everybody, well without exception, everybody that comes through divorce is extremely angry. And people deal with anger in all kinds of different ways.

Some people stuff it, some people explode it, some people, you know, And some people are really good at hiding their anger, but that just will make you sick. so we try to coach people about how to deal with their anger. First of all, acknowledge it, you know, let it out, let other people know about it, and then begin to own it.

Begin to understand that it's your anger. Nobody made you angry. You're, you're angry for reasons, but it's not because somebody else made you angry.

Tim Windsor: Mm-hmm.

Bill Koontz: Um, so helping people deal with anger. and then deal with, uh, depression. Depression is a very common, outcome of divorce because of all the reasons we've already talked about. And, you know, depression comes in a couple of different forms. One, you blame yourself [00:28:00] and so you just put yourself down. You put yourself down, you're your own worst critic. and your, your divorce has highlighted all the bad things that you ever thought about yourself. And then some, you may have other people feeding into that as well.

Um. So depression is a, is a very common, result of divorce. And we try again, try to help people acknowledge that what are the sources of it? How do you begin, what are strategies to move through depression? and, and you got to, you know, sometimes it's important to, to get some medication to help. it's, you know, and some people have resistance to that.

It's like, no, I don't want it. Hey. If it takes something like that to help you out of the pit of depression, that's That's gonna produce way better results than if you simply wallow in it. So, and then there's a whole bunch, there's like six more steps that are on the recovery side.

, But those are the ones that we try to help people initially 

deal with, [00:29:00] recognize, deal with it, begin to move through it. Uh, whether it's a counseling situation, a, a support group situation, result of what you're reading, whatever, uh, but those are so important steps.

Tim Windsor: Well, I, so appreciate you sharing that and, and highlighting those things. One, one thing I found interesting is. The place that the role of blame or how blame shows up, within this conversation where, where blame blame of others and blame of ourselves is equally as unhelpful.

Bill Koontz: Yes, Yes, 

Tim Windsor: And that's kind of interesting because this isn't about, blaming one or blaming another.

It's actually understanding that blaming ourselves or blaming someone else doesn't lead us forward. Actually, we become stuck in that we either become so focused on punishing ourselves or punishing someone else that it's very hard to move forward. Into a positive future while you're still tethered to the past in punishing yourself or others.

Yeah. So that, that is [00:30:00] an interesting part of what I hear you saying in this, and it's just really wise and I also appreciate, you know, it's wise and it's measured. I mean, even what you said, you know, if what you need. Is, you know, you can medicate yourself in an unhealthy way, but if you need something to help you, if you get into that depressed place, I just really appreciate the. Just the wise understanding and counsel that's there, because again, I think sometimes it's so easy for us to polarize or think, you know, well, if that happens then I, I've lost if I have to take something I've lost. So I really, I appreciate the measured wisdom and clearly that's come through your own experience and through the experience that you've had in fulfilling this calling that you have towards this group of people that you obviously identify with.

And can understand. 'cause you've, you've walked in that valley and you have the scars to prove it. and it's really, really wonderful to hear that, how that all comes together. [00:31:00] I am interested in this and I, this could be totally erroneous. And by the way, if it is, I I'd like you to 

Bill Koontz: in? Can I break into a minute? 

Because I want to add one more thought to what you just said.

Tim Windsor: Yeah, go ahead.

Bill Koontz: and that is that depression sometimes leads people to suicidal thoughts,

Tim Windsor: Yeah.

Bill Koontz: and that is not uncommon. One of the things I would want your listeners to hear is that. If you are in a place where you're seriously thinking about suicide, you are not alone.

That is not an uncommon result of coming through a devastating, life changing experience. And in this case, the context we're talking about is divorce. so again, I, we try to take, uh, we had, one guy came to our seminar on Friday. He had, um, signed up, we had sent a little reminder and he had decided he wasn't gonna go even though he had signed up.

In fact, he was just gonna, he's planning on ending his life that night.[00:32:00] 

Tim Windsor: Wow.

Bill Koontz: Friday night he got the reminder card that very day, and it was just enough of an encouragement that he went to the seminar and he is still alive today.

Tim Windsor: Wow.

Bill Koontz: and, and so I say that again just to say, hey. There's no shame in, in feeling so devastated that you're thinking your life needs to come to an end, you know, instead acknowledge it.

Bring it out into the open with somebody you really deeply trust and someone who you think can help you begin to find your way out. And we have suicide hotlines now. so anyway, I just wanted to add that little piece to.

Tim Windsor: Yeah, no Bill, thanks for doing that. And, really appreciate that and I, you know, let, let me go in a different direction for a second. 'cause I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave what I was thinking over here for now. If it needs to come back, it will, but. What I really love about what you just said is we started this conversation and I asked the question, is [00:33:00] there a difference in the experience between maybe people who come from a religious or faith tradition or not?

And you said there's a lot, there's more similarities and difference, but one of the difference might be an added level of shame and 

guilt. And now you're also talking about how, you know, how shame comes back into this for people. And frankly, it can become the thing that breaks their back.

It can lead them to a place where they feel like they can't move forward.

There's no moving forward for them. There's no recovery, and so they become, hopeless. It's pretty clear to me that you, you're a purveyor of hope. but you're also a wonderful realist. and you're also a person who clearly is not wanting to heap shame on 

people. And what I appreciate about, you is that again, you come from that faith tradition, and obviously I know that you still practice in those things. And unfortunately, maybe unfortunately, a lot of people who are in those faith tradition, they're, they're pretty good at dealing out 

shame. [00:34:00] And so the most wonderful thing for me partly in this conversation is that. You are a person who understands the evilness, that shame actually perpetrates on another individual, and your journey has taken you from a place. Of potentially maybe in in your past, a place of judgment often that we come from.

But we come to a place of grace and we've come to a place where we are not gonna be the shamer anymore. And so that's, to me is part of this, the wonderful part of this. And I love that because I do think that we can shame people. Unin intent. I think we can shame them on purpose. You know, you talked about your own experience.

You talked a little bit about, your, your experience as a child. you know, I, have a similar background and my parents were divorced when I was young, and, and I will say that that sense of shame is real and power.

Bill Koontz: Hmm.

Tim Windsor: You know, I felt that as a kid. Um, my parents, when my parents were divorced, my mom [00:35:00] took a group of us and we grew up in government housing and didn't have a lot of money.

And, you know, we would go to the grocery store at times and her check would be rejected 'cause it was government housing and the shame that went with, that. And so, you know, there's a constant shaming that happens along the way to people. And so when we can release people from shame that is there, I don't know if there's a greater 

gift. You know, getting the book is great. Going to a seminar is amazing. Getting some tips is awesome. Removing shame is transformative.

Bill Koontz: Yeah.

Tim Windsor: And so I just wanna really park on that again. If you're listening in and you feel that shame, if you've gone through this experience, whether you're from a faith tradition or not, hey, I think Bill is telling you, you know, that shame isn't something you need to bare 

Bill Koontz: Mm-hmm. 

Tim Windsor: Get yourself in a place where you can get relief from that because that's the stuff that will kill you. Whether it does physically or whether it does emotionally [00:36:00] or whether it does psychologically, that shame is impressively evil.

Bill Koontz: it is. Yeah.

Tim Windsor: So Bill, I appreciate just the wondrous, wonderful graciousness, uh, and hopefulness that is in this conversation for people.

So. I'm gonna ask you a question that I, I, I wanna sort of move into, and then we will sort of bring the conversation into a landing. But, so when you encounter a person and you see them transformed over time. So when you and your group get the chance to walk aside another human who's in this situation, and you get a, an opportunity to help lift their head up so they can start seeing the future, they can move into the future, what does that feel like at the end of the day?

I, I'm interested, like what does that feel like for you and your team and how does that connect to your story?

Bill Koontz: that's good. And As another [00:37:00] little side note on shame, if we have time to come back to that, but I, I would like to share with your listeners, kind of a, a really practical five step piece that can help them in their journey, out of shame.

Tim Windsor: That we're gonna get, we're gonna go there for

Bill Koontz: okay. So,

Tim Windsor: Love it.

Bill Koontz: but back to your question.

divorce recovery work. Leadership is really hard. from an emotional perspective, I'm not sure there's a harder place you can walk into than another person's deeply, shaped trauma in their own lives. When I walk into a seminar, our seminar room, there can be anywhere from, we've had as many as 120. when I walk into that room, I can feel it. [00:38:00] Uh, there's just like a cloud, a thick cloud, oppressive cloud that's in the room at the beginning of the day.

You walk in and you can feel it. when our seminar concludes, there is no cloud. 

People for the first time, maybe in weeks or even months, have laughed. They have been served. They have been treated with dignity. They have eaten good food. They've seen some really good video and PowerPoint stuff, and they've heard from a variety of, people who have walked through the kind of thing they're experiencing.

And at the end of that seminar, we, we always take a feedback sheet and oh my gosh, that's why I'm still doing this.

Tim Windsor: Wow. 

Bill Koontz: That's why I'm still doing this. It's, it's hard. It's extremely hard. It's the hardest thing I do, [00:39:00] but it's also because of that, it's even more so rewarding and meaningful, uh, to see the kind of impact we're making on people's lives.

One who was thinking about committing suicide, 

Tim Windsor: Yeah. 

Bill Koontz: yeah.

Tim Windsor: well, what a powerful, image, , regarding just the power of that dark oppressiveness that gets on people and how the wonder for you is seeing that removed from them.

Bill Koontz: Yeah.

Tim Windsor: Which it, and I, I would say shame is a little bit like a cloak. 

Bill Koontz: Hmm. 

Tim Windsor: It can get 

on you. So that brings us back and, you know, I'm gonna get you to share this and then we will, make sure that people know how they can connect with you and your team.

We'll, we'll finish up, but, share with my listeners for their benefit and maybe for the benefit of somebody in their life. What are some of these steps that can help lead, a person out of this? Dark shame that gets on them some days.

Bill Koontz: Yeah. So, uh. we have [00:40:00] devised what's called a five step. It's called, we call it the S method. 'cause each of the keyword starts with a letter S. And the first S is the spot

to spot the shaming thoughts that come at you or that come from within you to spot them to begin to identify those thoughts.

The second thing is to make a decision and say, I am going to stop that process. That mental process I realize has no value. It only degrades me, and I'm going to stop that. I'm gonna make a decision to stop thinking that way, and I want to think a different way.

The third S is to stand, and sometimes that's to physically stand.

You know, but it's basically making a commitment of saying, I am going to stand against [00:41:00] those thoughts. I am going to move forward into a different direction. And the fourth s then is substitute. Substitute those thoughts with thoughts that are true about you, that and if you have trouble coming up with 'em, then make a list from other people what they tell you, say.

What, what's true about who am I, what's true about me? What do you know about me? What are the characteristics about me that are worthwhile? And make a list and, and then substitute, you know, those shaming thoughts with what is true. I substitute. And then the fifth one is the seek. if you're just stuck, you're just having trouble digging out of the muck of being able to think differently.

Then seek some help. And that help might be a friend, call a friend, it could be a counselor beginning a counseling relationship. It could be seeking out a group. it could be, you know, any number of strategies to seek help outside of myself so that I can begin to move [00:42:00] forward.

Tim Windsor: Wow. So I love it. It's, it's practical, it's actionable, it's wise. Uh, and so again, if you're listening in, you might wanna pause, you might wanna rewind Write those things down if you haven't, and Ask yourself, do I need to activate these things for myself or do I need to activate these for others? but really why wise counsel, bill and I really, really appreciate it. Really wise.

Bill Koontz: Yeah. Well, thank you Tim. Again, it's, you know, it's just. Stuff that we've discovered over 30 years and read and figured out what works and what doesn't work, and.

Tim Windsor: No, I appreciate it. I mean, also, bill, I just really appreciate your, uh, you have this wonderful humility about the way that you approach this subject. and again, I think that's really important. I mean, you know, there is, uh, you know, text within, uh, you know, the. The sacred writings that I think about right now. And again, some people in [00:43:00] who listen, might, resonate with this. And some people they won't know this text. But I think the truth is still applicable. You know, there's a, verse that says that God, encourages us and, and God themselves desires to give grace to the humble and potentially law, to the 

proud and.

I guess what I, I, I see in that, in the discussion is I think sometimes when people get into these places of deep trauma that if we're not careful, whether we're religious or not, we're ending up giving the law to the humble and we're destroying them. But when we give grace to the humble, it causes them to be released in such a powerful way that they can find wholeness and freedom. Your graciousness in your communication, in, in your compassion for people and your gracious acceptance of, of where they are, who they are, based on your own experience. And for a man who was treated so [00:44:00] Ungraciously, you obviously have learned grace. From that experience and for the benefit also of others, which I just really find, a really wonderful sort of thread in this, conversation, bill.

And I just wanna acknowledge and, and say I deeply appreciate that. So Bill, let's just say. That somebody needed to find you and they needed to find you or your group, what's the best way for them to, to get connected with you? Uh, find your book, maybe find your seminars, get connected with you guys.

what's the best way for that to happen?

Bill Koontz: Uh, well, probably the best way would be to go to our website, divorce and beyond.org. there you'll find all of our resources, the seminars, the support groups. You'll find the book. And, and I, I like to show the book because it doesn't look like a divorce recovery book,

Tim Windsor: No.

Bill Koontz: right? I mean, 

it is full of color.

it focuses you on. Sure. The reality of divorce, but it [00:45:00] also focuses you on the beyond what's beyond the bridge. Um, so anyway, that's our book. It just came out, in August. it's available to all the major booksellers and all the formats, audible, you know, all that stuff. So e versions. so that's the best way.

And if you go on a website, uh, if you want to email us, there's uh, an email address there, info@divorceandbeyond.org that you can use. so that that's how people can get in touch with us.

Tim Windsor: Okay, appreciate that. So, as you know, listeners, I tend to bulk record in advance and then we release. So when you're listening to this conversation, if you're listening to it, the day it releases, it's early January, 2026. You might be listening to it some other time in the future after that. But if you are listening at the beginning of January, there's a reason why when Bill and I chatted, that. I made a decision based on something Bill said to me that I asked my producer to make sure that this would get released the [00:46:00] beginning of January, 2026. And so I really wanna end with this bill because you shared something with me.

About that time of the year, I'd like you to share that with my listeners, and, I'd like you to speak to people who might be sitting in their car or in their living room, or in a hotel room, or wherever they are listening to this podcast, and they're contemplating some things in their 

life. So what is it about the beginning of January? That is really important for people to understand.

Bill Koontz: Well, first of all, wherever you are sitting right now, I wanna say to you that the most powerful gift you can give yourself and that you can give to everyone else around you, your kids, your ex spouse, or soon to be ex-US. Is the gift of forgiveness.

I found that people who are willing to [00:47:00] forgive themselves, receive God's forgiveness, who are willing to forgive their ex, who are willing to forgive other people who are involved. Those are the people that discover the secret of healing and moving forward. They, find a way to release themselves from the bondage, from the prison of unforgiveness and bitterness and resentment and blame, you know, all those things we've talked about.

So, January is important because we hold a seminar every January. This year it's gonna be January 24th, and the reason for that is because we found that there are two dates in the year. Where divorces are filed most frequently. One of 'em is January and the other is June, January, because spouses agree together generally if they're [00:48:00] getting divorced.

Okay, let's, let's just get through the holidays. Let's get through Thanksgiving and Christmas. We, we'll share gifts as a family one last time and you know, after Christmas we'll tell the kids, we'll tell the family and then in January, we're filing an. We're moving on. So that's why we always do one in January.

June is the other month because it's when the school year has ended and beginning into of the summer and say, okay, school year's over, let's announce it. Let's take the summer to try to figure this out as a family, before school starts again in the fall. So yeah, that's why I encouraged, encouraged you to release this in January because there'll be people.

Who were just coming outta the holidays who were like, okay, time to file.

Tim Windsor: So first of all, I really appreciate that, message that you just gave people, and, again, if you're listening in, I always say you're listening for a reason. And so forgiveness. And by the way, whether [00:49:00] you're think you're getting divorced in January or not, forgiveness is one of the most powerful gifts that we could give ourselves and others.

And if you didn't give it to somebody for Christmas, you ought to give it to them. Now you ought to give it to yourself. Um, because. It is the most freeing thing that we can do for ourselves or others. It's, ultimately letting ourselves or somebody off the hook. I would say this about forgiveness as we finish.

I think a lot of people mistakenly think that forgiveness is excusing behavior. I 

would argue that it's the opposite. To acknowledge something needs to be forgiven is to acknowledge that it exists and that it it's painful enough to be forgiven.

Bill Koontz: Absolutely.

Tim Windsor: The gracious intent of forgiveness isn't about excusing, it isn't about even the lack of consequences, but it is about freeing myself and another human from an unnatural and unhealthy bondage to a past event that then [00:50:00] one never can really free themselves from.

Bill Koontz: That's right.

Tim Windsor: So really wisely put Bill, and just thank you so much for your time. Thanks for coming on the show. Again, if you're listening in listeners, I always say you're listening in for a reason. So do me a favor as you unpack this conversation, and it might be a, a more difficult one than normal that we would have on our show. I also hope that you find it unusually hopeful. , But my encouragement to you would be is as you unpack this in your life, do me a favor, uh, DM me or email me at tim@uncommodified.com and let me know how you are processing this conversation for your benefit or maybe for the benefit of

others. Also, if you know somebody who's in this circumstance in our life right now, share this episode with

them and connect them with, Bill's organization and his team.

And again, thank you so much for your time, bill. Absolutely delightful and powerful and inspirational gracious conversation. Cheers everybody. [00:51:00] Thanks. Have a wonderful

day. 

Bill Koontz: Thank you, Tim.