HUMAN 2 HUMAN: UNCORKED with AIDAN & TIM

What happens when two hosts sit down, flip the mic back and forth, and refuse to keep the conversation safely inside the lines of sales, marketing, or leadership?

This episode is the answer.

Tim Windsor sits down with his friend Aidan Hennebry from the Amplifyr Podcast for a long, unfiltered, unscripted conversation that starts in business but quickly exposes the human machinery underneath it. This is a true cross-release, one conversation living in two ecosystems, where the host chair keeps changing, and the questions get sharper because of it.

Tim and Aidan talk about entrepreneurship and security, sales and leadership, process and paradox, success and failure, accountability and agency, AI and imperfection, and the dangerous lie that professionalism requires polish instead of humanity. They dismantle the myth of straight lines, expose the cost of confusing failure with identity, and challenge the idea that certainty is either real or desirable. Somewhere along the way, cracked pots, experimentation, anti-fragility, responsibility, and the illusion of control all collide.

If you’re tired of pretending your business problems aren’t human problems…
If you’re suspicious of perfection and allergic to canned answers…
If you’ve ever felt the tension between who you are and what you’re told success should look like…

This conversation is for you.

No safe conclusions. Just two people thinking out loud, challenging assumptions, owning evolution, and asking the kind of questions that don’t let you walk away unchanged.

Welcome to Amplifyr.
Welcome to Uncommodified.
And welcome to a conversation that refuses to stay in its lane.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

Tim Windsor, welcome to the Amplifyr Podcast. Oh, Aidan, it's so good to be here. And by the way, Aidan, welcome to the Uncommodified podcast. Thank you, Tim. It's so good to be here. Oh, we're gonna cross release this so my audience gets to hear Aiden not talking about family. Or maybe Yep. And then why am I here?

You are here 'cause you're, uh, an interesting guy with a lot of interesting business experience. So the Amplifier Podcast for anyone that doesn't know is at the intersection of sales, marketing, leadership, pricing, anything in there, running a business, being an entrepreneur, that type of thing. And just chatting a lot of the episodes so far.

I, I'm still kind of figuring out what the Amplifier Podcast is, but a lot of the episodes so far have just been chatting with people with interesting jobs, uh, particularly, you know, when on the sales, marketing, leadership side of things and just. Learning about their experience from that. So, well, just so you know, I almost like 200 episodes into unmodified and I'm still trying to figure out what it is as well.

So just so you know, [00:01:00] um, you've got a few more episodes to go, so don't worry about it. Just try to figure it out and don't really figure it out. I, yeah, just, uh, it'll find its own. I love it. Well, yeah, we're, I'm about to hit double digits episodes finally. So look at you. You're, we're getting there. You're like a, a, a young adult.

I know. We're getting there. We're getting there. Alright. So Tim, uh, I wanna know the origin story of how Tim became Tim. So, uh, tell us first, first of all, for anyone that does know what you do, how would you describe what you do and, uh, particularly how did you get into it? Okay. First of all, when I saw this question originally, I was like, do you want to know how I was conceived?

Yeah. And I was like, no, that's probably not what Aiden wants to know. At least not on this podcast. Well, maybe on the other, uh, side of unmodified, we can talk about that. So le leave that to your imaginations people. Um, so for me, I ca I did come from an entrepreneurial family. Uh. My dad was very [00:02:00] entrepreneurial.

Um, although it was a difficult journey for him because his, his parents were divorced when he was in high school, and my dad had to drop outta school to take care of his mom. And so my dad was a very intelligent, in fact, he was mayor for the day, he, our community when he was in high school. Um, and then he went into business, but he always wanted to own his own business and that never happened.

My brothers were also Entrepr two. I have, I have, uh, three other brothers. Two of them were also very entrepreneurial, and so I think part of it is I, I was raised in that kind of environment. I think some of it for me too was, uh, I don't think I was ever gonna be a great employee. Um, I don't really take instruction well some days.

Uh, so you give a lot of instructions. I give, I love to give instructions. Absolutely. I learned this from my wife. She's very good at it as well. I, so I was just like, I, I just had this idea about wanting to do business and I had an opportunity, uh, in my mid-teens. My [00:03:00] brother, one of my brothers who had a business, uh, he needed some help and that was a home building business and drafting and design.

And, uh, so he taught me to, I, I learned to draft homes when I was 14. Okay. He taught me how to draft and, uh, I was drafting homes and helping him build homes and do renovation when I was 15, 16 years old. And that led to a business with him, which by the way, unless you're really good at working with your family, I don't recommend it.

'cause we damn near killed each other. And they decided eventually this wasn't working. Uh, but then that led me to the other businesses that I had, which ultimately came, became the business that I, I have now. But other than about three years in all of my life, I've worked for myself. So, you know, maybe a serial entrepreneur or just maybe a serial psychopath or somewhere in between those two.

I don't know. Uh, but it, that's been my journey and I, I've, I've loved it. I'm still trying to figure it out. [00:04:00] I still haven't quite figured it out. And uh, and that's okay with me. I really love the journey that, so that's sort of how I ended up in the journey. The journey's taken lots of different evolutions or evolutionary periods to it because it's been an evolving and ever evolving form and maybe it'll continue to do so.

Hmm, okay. So being an entrepreneur is not necessarily for everyone. So you said with the exception maybe about three years there, you've always worked for yourself. Were you ever tempted to take up a job? Was there any particularly rough period where you thought, oh, maybe owning a business is not for me and I should just, uh.

You know, get an old ball and chain. Yeah. So I think there's been lots of times through, if I'm gonna be honest, there's been times where I was like, you know what? This would be a lot simpler that if I just worked for somebody. Hmm. Um, although I'm not sure it would really be that more, that much more simpler.

Um, it might feel like it's more stable and it might feel like it has more of a guarantee. But I would challenge that proposition. [00:05:00] I actually don't believe that. I think particularly look at, look at where we're in society today. I think this idea that just having a nine to five job and having a job where you may, may, you most likely don't even have a pension anymore.

You may have benefits. I mean, I've never had, other than three years in my life, we've never had benefits. We've self-funded benefits all of our life. But I think that security. It's a bit of a myth. It's a bit of smoke and mirrors. And so I think the problem is a lot of people think, well, entrepreneurialism is a lack of security.

It's a, it's this sort of freefall and you're not sure, and they juxtapose that to position that if I'm an employee at Eradicates all of that, I would fundamentally disagree with that. It probably was never true. It might've seemed true before 'cause of the constructs around security in our society. I, I think most people today recognize the tremendous vulnerability we all have to forces that are wholly and solely beyond our control.

Yeah, COVID [00:06:00] definitely would've shown that COVID and lots of other things that are happening now that we shall not speak of. Fair enough. That's, yep, that's fair. So when it comes to the business that you currently run right now, I guess I'm interested to hear you kind of talk about, when I think of Tim WinDor and feel free to correct this, uh, perspective, if you will.

Yeah. I think of unmodified and I think of Vesco and obviously then the man, the myth, the legend, somewhere in between there. Can you kind of like, what is the distinction? How did this kind of come about, um, this distinction between, uh, unmodified and Vesco? Because I know from, you know, you and I have worked together for many, many years and in a lot of different capacities and I've at different times seen those lines blurred and then other times they seem very separate and distinct.

And I'm curious to understand from your perspective why the distinction, when are they different? When are they the same thing? Where do you fit into all of that? Sure. And I think, well, first of all, you know, I'd like to say there's, there's purpose, uh, and convention to this, but [00:07:00] there isn't. So let's, let's be fairly clear.

If you're taking notes, don't, don't take, don't take notes. 'cause this is, this is not the way to do it. But, so for, let's talk about the, the evolution. So Vesco came before on commodified, but there was something before Vesco. Okay. So in my, and how I ended up in the place I'm at today, I had an entrepreneurial idea, desire.

Um, I was in business with my brother, which I mentioned to you failed miserably 'cause we almost killed each other. Is this still in like 14, 16 or is this later in life now? I was, I was, I was 19 years old when that business came to an end. Okay. And I, um, we, I almost broke a chair over his head in my dining room.

So this was, this is, if you're gonna take one note. If you ever get to a point in a partnership that you wanna break a chair over someone else else, it's probably time to exit this. This is my best advice. All right, that's perfect. So I was like, this is done. I can't do this anymore. So, um, it just so happened, and this is where I would say, first of [00:08:00] all, I wanna be really clear about the secret to my success.

The secret to my success is un, un unashamedly luck. Now, I believe that luck, like the philosopher Seneca, said that luck favors the prepared. I also sort of believe that luck is sort of like Arnold Palmer may have or may not have famously said, the more I practice the luckier I get. So I do believe that luck is enabled or attracted by preparation and practice, but I also believe it's luck.

And so the, my entrepreneurial journey that ultimately became everything that it is today, that part of it, that business journey started because of luck. So. Uh, Pam, my wife and I were, I was married when I was 20, so now I was in my early twenties. And, uh, we had a friend who, uh, was a, was a serial entrepreneur.

In fact, he had brought Amway, the company, Amway, into Germany and started it from scratch. So he was very wealthy, [00:09:00] very, uh, just ran an amazing businessman. And we met him at a time in his life where he was older and he had, they had moved back to Canada where they were from, and that's where he met him.

And he had a small boutique sort of marketing business. And that business was a business that actually, uh, produced products for the tourist industry. And some people remember this, or even see them still, you would go to a gas station and on the side of the wall in the gas station would be a, a, a sort of a plastic, uh, sort of acrylic board with a map.

Okay. And then around it would be advertising. Mm-hmm. And you'd find, mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Well, that was his business in Canada. And he had built that business up and he ran it quite successfully. But at this point in his life, he was beginning to deal with early o uh, onset par, Parkinson's. And so it had, was crippling, crippling him physically, beginning to, emotionally, physically.

And so he had to [00:10:00] basically put a pause in his business. So his business had become nothing, a real shell. All everybody had employed, all had left, and it was just sitting there. Um, we had encountered them at this point in their life and they were on their way of exiting Ontario where we lived. They were gonna move back to BC having a home built.

And the closings did not line up. And they were basically in a position where they didn't have a house. And so Pam and I offered, uh, our home to them for them to come and live with us for six months. And so they did that. And during this time, Lee Penner was his name. He, he really, his health began to diminish tremendously.

Uh, and it was really sad to watch at the end of it, they wanted to give us money for staying at our house, and I didn't wanna receive money. So Lee said to me, well, Tim, um, I have this shell of this business. I think you probably could be good at it. What if I gave it to you? Hmm. So he effectively gave me this company, which was called Impact Media at the [00:11:00] time.

Uh, and at that time I was working for someone else. At this point in my career, I was actually a business manager at a car dealership. I was 21 years old. Um, I had started in the car business 'cause I loved selling. I sold a ton of cars. The first three months that I worked, I started th Oh, I sold 32 cars the first month.

That's insane that I sold cars. I had a great sales manager who, who effectively said, I'm gonna teach you the secret of this business. He said, if you wanna sell cars, you have to find customers. And he threw a white pages down on my desk if you, the people remember a White Pages. And it went and he said, there's a lot of people in there need cars, start calling just a phone book, just saying, just a white pages open to, so I started wow.

Cold calling people and he gave me a script. And the script was, sorry to interrupt you. I'm Tim WinDor from, was Hyundai Dealership Alpine Hyundai. I'm just wondering, are you or anybody that you know looking for a new car? Because if you are, I would love an opportunity to speak to you. And [00:12:00] I started making calls and by and by I got people said, oh, it's funny you would call, actually our car just broke down.

We need a new car. I said, would you consider? Oh yeah. And I sold 32 cars the first month and went on off that, and then I became the business manager. Uh, and that owner who owned that, also owned the largest Ford dealership in our, in our community. And so at 21, I was financing a three quarters of a million dollars worth of cars in the early eighties.

So I had a great job. I was making $70,000 a year in the early eighties as a business manager. So Lee Penner gives me this business that's a shell, and I say to my lovely wife who has always entertained my ridiculous uh, uh, requests, you know what? I'm gonna quit and see if what I can do with this business.

So I up and quit left the job. We didn't have kids yet. And, um, I resurrected that business. And so my first business was that marketing business. And I spun off some other products for the tourist industry, but most of the [00:13:00] products we created were for the tourist industry. And we were in a small town. We were in Kitchener in Ontario.

I, one of the products I started was competing directly with a magazine product of the largest publisher in the area. And I was starting to take some market share. And so I got a call from the president of that publishing company and said, Hey, Tim, I, I got two opportunities for you. And I said, what's that?

His name was Peter. He said, well, one is. I put you outta business, okay, because you're a nuisance or two, you come to work for me. And I was like, oh, I'll come to work for you. So I started working for him and I started selling advertising and I became the bus, the publisher of a business magazine within about three months.

And I published that business magazine and then that led me on a series of journeys. And I decided I, after a while, I didn't wanna do that. And I got back into marketing. And I loved marketing, even though I didn't know a lot about it. And so I resurrected the next generation of that company and it became a company called Thinkers Marketing.[00:14:00] 

And for me, it was just all about thinking different or creatively or whatever sounded like a good idea at the beginning. And so I founded this company and I started doing primarily cost saving marketing consulting in the beginning. Okay? So I wanted to figure a way to earn money very quickly. And so I charged customers, I did cost saving marketing projects where I could look at their marketing, maybe it was direct mail they were doing, and cut their savings back when we did direct mail.

Lots of direct mail, and I would charge them 50% of the savings year one and nothing after that. Hmm. But that meant sometimes within a month I could make 40 grand. Okay. So I got involved in that, and then I began to realize as I was working more with more customers, that their marketing problems were actually not marketing problems.

They often were sales problems. Mm-hmm. And so I started to getting interested in selling and how selling works and started reading and teaching myself. I have a high school degree, so I'm not that, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm relatively uneducated, but I'm, but I'm [00:15:00] educated in different ways. I, I like to learn.

Mm-hmm. And so what happened was I started barreling into that area of sales and really loved it and realized that I had some creative ways of looking at it, some benefit. And then I began to realize also though that sales problems were often leadership problems. Mm-hmm. Sales leadership or business leadership problems.

And so that led me on a journey over a number of years from marketing and marketing consulting to sales and sales consulting and training to leadership and leadership consulting, coaching. Because the, the source or the epicenter of a lot of those problems were actually poor leadership and poor strategic leadership decisions.

Hmm. So that began my journey. And the evolution of that eventually was the company went from being vesco or for thinkers, which is marketing. Vesco in Latin means to bring, to boil or to ignite. And at that time I was really interested and I had developed some material that I called Ignite. And so Vesco then became the next [00:16:00] sort of generation of thinkers.

Legally speaking today my business still legally is thinkers. Interesting. Never changed the name. So Vesco became a doing business as, and then on commodified showed up because as I was doing a lot of consulting, particularly 'cause I had the lucky, good fortune again, uh, of, of being introduced to people at Moen Canada, the faucet company.

And in 2002 I started doing sales training at Moen Canada. And I, for a 13 year period, I worked with Moen Canada. I did sales training on every side of their business. I did leadership training, executive training. And during that time I was challenged. 'cause they were a highly commoditized industry. I mean, you can buy a faucet anywhere.

Mm-hmm. So I began to think about how to, how do you take a market or product that is highly commoditized and how do you, how do you un commodify. That's where the first terms of unmodified came from. So it was really a very functional, structural conversation [00:17:00] about how do you add value beyond the thing you sell.

And then I began to come to the conclusion that in that journey that commodities are not just highly available faucets. They're not just co coffee and copper. Mm-hmm. That a commodity by dictionary definition is anything easily and readily available in multiple places. That's the definition. So therefore, I started to think, well then everything's a commodity at some level, including by the way I ideas and ideologies, including, you know, including the things that, uh, you know, uh, in that don't seem to be products.

Mm-hmm. So then I began to say, well, what if un commodification or being unmodified? What if it's the secret? What if it's what if it's actually the macro? Secret to everything in life. What if it isn't just about business? What it's, what if it's about life, what it's about? What if, what if It's about calling forth [00:18:00] the uniqueness of who we were created to be, not just the products or services that we're creating.

And that got into my head and, and when things get into my head, they get, they go into a very strange place and I begin to ruminate. And so out of that, I started to do some, uh, one off seminars and training called unmodified. Hmm. I didn't know that. Okay. And that's where the term started to latch. But then it started to grow a life of its own.

And this is, you know, the journey you're talking about. So unmodified started to take over my psyche. It became so much of everything I wanted to talk about. What I found intriguing, and I found myself wanting to move more and more in that direction. So on Commodified began to find its way and was sort of birthed as a more of a technical term, probably also aided.

I like to read a lot and that's where I've learned. But I was reading a book at the time by, uh, I think the author is Nasem Taleb, [00:19:00] phenomenal author, and the book is called The Black Swan Effect. And he's written, he also wrote another book called Anti-Fragility, which is a powerful book. I feel like I've heard that title.

That's a great book. Because his pre, his idea isn't, see, we think about something being fragile or non fragile. His idea is what if we could create structures that were anti-fragile? Meaning the, the, the worst they were shaken, the stronger they got His, his image was interesting. His image was if you have a glass and you put it in a box and you make it and you mark it non-frail, it's because you've insulated it with something to keep it from breaking.

He said, but what if you could create such, such an environment where in fact every time you took the glass and threw it on the ground, it became stronger to resist shattering. That's anti-fragile. So I was playing around with these strange ideas about anti fragility and because of the reading I was doing him and things like the Black Swan Effect, which is these [00:20:00] black swan events that happen, that change the world or change markets.

His whole book is about how do you predict them? How do you predict them? Predict them, and how do you actually take advantage of them? So I was re reading all this sort of really crazy stuff and this all then became amalgam of unmodified and it, so it began to. Eclipse in some ways and then I thought, it sounds like an interesting brand.

I'll do something with it, you know, of course the first thing I did is bought un commodified.com. 'cause you gotta have the URL you. I respect, you're one of my friends that when you have a brilliant idea, like me, you're like, I gotta go buy the URL, I gotta buy the URL. So, so that's how this whole thing sort of evolved.

Um, but that's my story. I, I love it. But, but hold on. I got, wait a second, wait a second. Okay. Okay. Because remember, this isn't just about me and I've just taken up half the podcast chatting about myself. Okay. So how about you? I mean, you've gone through lots of iterations of Aiden. Yeah. Like, are you on like [00:21:00] version 6.2 or where are you?

Where Well, oh, that feels like answering, uh, what is the Amplifier podcast at all, which feels very much like a work in progress. Yeah. If I'm being quite honest. So, um, if I was more intelligent, I would've thought of, thought you might ask this question, I would've rehearsed an answer. So you're gonna get a very off the cuff answer.

Perfect. Um, I don't know, man, like I. I, for as long as I can remember, I, I feel like I've been a person with lots of big ideas and big dreams. I know, uh, when I was in, I feel like sixth grade or something like that, um, I had it in my head that I was gonna be like a full-time musician. I was gonna be a rock star.

I was gonna be in a band. We were gonna hit it big. And that was my career aspirations. And some of my parents would like, you know, tell me to go do my homework. I'm like, I don't need to worry about that. I'm gonna be a musician, it's fine. And they were like, maybe just have a backup plan. Like, it's okay if you wanna be a musician, but um, you know, a decent plan B is not a bad idea.

So [00:22:00] that was kind of where that started. And I mean, I, I grew up in a small town, Walkerton, Ontario. I really, really wanted to get outta there. So Toronto again was like, uh, it was a big dream and I didn't even end up going to Toronto, whatever. Life kind of took me a little bit of a different way. I feel like for a long, long time I've had, uh, crazy ideas and, uh, for better or worse, I indulge them or I at least contemplate them.

I mean, even meeting my wife when, uh, I first met Leanne, uh, she's four years older than me, which is not a big deal when you're in your thirties like I am now. But, uh, when I was 18 and she was 22, I was starting college and she had finished college. Uh, that was a much bigger gap, right? And so I had thought, well, I have no chance with this woman anyways.

Woman, not girl. I was like, I got no chance with her anyways. I might as well be crazy and throw myself out there. And sure enough, here we are, uh, 14 years later, four kids later, and 11 years, 11 and a half years of marriage. So, um, yeah, I feel like I've [00:23:00] always had lots of, uh, crazy ideas. And so even, uh, you know, and then a lot of the very, very good things in my life can be traced back to my wife in one way or another.

So, um, the first job I had out of college was with your son, Chris, uh, who's a great guy, who I have a lot of love, by the way. He's a great guy because of his mother. Just, just Pam. Pam. I just want you to know that I, I'm saying this on the podcast. It's, yeah, it's being recorded. There you go. It's Pam. There you go.

You can quote that now forever. Pam. Um, he, uh, he had called me. I had done his wedding photo. And he had called me up and he said, Hey, I got this job at this company and we need photos of our products. And it was, uh, you know, concrete manu or concrete finishing equipment. And he's like, I know that's not portraiture or weddings, but are you interested?

You know, it would probably pay you well. And I was a broke college student and I had like cold feet and I was like, nah, I'm definitely gonna pass on this. And lean's like. Aiden, you're very broke. You're about to graduate college. We could use the [00:24:00] money. And so I was like, okay, sounds good. And so I kind of, I tried that.

Um, and that went really well. And then that turned into, he needed a freelance graphic designer, which turned into a, Hey, can you come on staff? And so it was a lot of. Uh, saying yes to things and trying out some of those things that scared me and were very much on the edge of what I was comfortable with.

And so, um, I worked for Chris for two years before I went out, uh, on my own as a wedding photographer. And I did that for five years full time. And in an among all of that, um, I realized that the skills that I was gaining, uh, to run and market my own small business were transferable. I could pass those skills along to other people as well.

And so I had started working with, uh, friends and colleagues and different people that I had met that had businesses and, uh, started sharing what I knew about marketing and so on with them. And so that then turned into some income for me, which was very needed during COVID. And then, [00:25:00] uh, I had lost touch with Chris at some point in and among there and then, uh, him and I had reconnected and he offered me another job, and that was in marketing.

And so, um, that was another, uh, felt scary to say yes to thing. I was quite happy being self-employed. Um, it was during CVI though, and the COVID years were quite stressful for small business owners. So it felt like, um, the more intelligent decision to say yes to that. I think at this point, uh, yeah, I had two kids and so I was like, okay, uh, I, I can provide some much needed stability.

Uh, we, you know, after having been through most of COVID, right? And so any who, the, the, the repeating theme here I guess is really just like. Kind of crazy or scary idea, trying it out and being like, what's the worst that can happen? I can always pause, pivot, change. Course. Right? And that idea, even of, um, pausing, pivoting, changing course, uh, has been I think especially something that I think a lot about in the [00:26:00] past couple years.

Like drawing lots of different things. You know, doghouse design studio where I'm doing, you know, bespoke graphic design stuff. Starting my own podcast finally, you know, talking about business and leadership. You know, I've had a blog for years and things like that. Um, I've written a book, which is cool. You know, another right.

Weird thing. That's the first time I've, uh, said that on camera. So, coming soon to a store, uh, near you, an online store available to purchase to support Aiden's children. Yeah, please. Shameless plug, please support. Well hold on. I wanna stop you for a sec. I'm gonna interrupt you, host. All right. Okay. I want, I'm gonna tell everybody the b side of this story, okay?

Because a Aiden. Forgot something. What did I forgot. So when Chris came Adam a second time to wanna hire him, Aiden was like, I'm not taking that job. I don't wanna work in that industry. And at the same time, this is where moments come together, like some kind of star alignment. I was doing consulting for a company that was in the same industry that my son was working in, [00:27:00] and I needed to hire a videographer to do a project who had mad skills.

So I racked my P brain and said, who do I know who's got mad skills? And I had epiphany. I was like, Bob does and he's not available. No, it wasn't Bob. I was like, Aiden Hevry. So I call up Aiden, I'm like, Hey, I got this project for you. And he's like, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. I said, you're, oh yeah, I do videography.

I'm like, so, so then remember you came to this project. Absolutely. So you didn't tell the B side. So the part of this project had me touring Aiden around to a bunch of different branch locations for this company where he was gonna shoot video. And one day Aiden confesses to me, you know, Chris is on me to come and work in this business.

Why would I wanna come in this industry? And I told you the powerful tale of water. This was the water industry and how water is the [00:28:00] elixir of life and how we can be part of help. I believe I helped push you into the arms. Absolutely. Of my son. A hundred percent. By the way, Chris WinDor, if you're listening, I never got the money for that, by the way.

I want the money, the commission, so the b the referral fee. The B side of this story is, is that I was the one serendipitously, yeah, serendipitously. It just happened that I was You were on that project and then Chris offered you. Mm-hmm. And by the way, I hadn't spoken to Chris, so I didn't know he had done, was doing this in the background, doing his magic.

So I'm gonna take a little part of that. Oh, absolutely. Journey. Oh, absolute. Well, per, just to be clear, that's the B side on that lunch, uh, is a little bit different. Okay. Not too much different, but I think in a way you'll find humorous because Yeah. I was excited. I had, again, I'd reconnected with Chris and at this point, um, I think I was already doing some freelance work for the company he was working for, again, where he was trying to bring me on staff.

So I was already doing a little bit there. You had, yeah. Contracted me to do a video [00:29:00] project for the company you were working with. Um, and, uh. When we were shooting that day, I knew it was a full day shoot and I knew at some point I'm gonna have to stop and go to lunch. And sure enough, the gentleman that you are, he said, oh, hey, and I'll take you to lunch, don't worry.

And I said, oh, okay. I'll get the bill. And you, of course not, I'll get the bill. And uh, I was scared because we sat down, I think we'd finished ordering our drinks, placed our order for lunch. And I feel like the first thing outta your mouth was, so when are you gonna start working for Chris? Probably just straight to the point.

Probably was, and that was the question that I absolutely did not want to answer, but I knew that you were gonna ask it. And so I don't know that I had a really great answer for you. But, um, I remember that. And so I can tell you the honest truth that for the next number of years, every week when I would drive by the restaurant where we had lunch.

I would look at that place and I would think of you and I would think of that conversation, just so you know. So for years on end now, okay, I high five, I have attributed that to you. So this is the story. That's all the things which, in which I love about the story. But the thing I've, I wanna go [00:30:00] back to the connection for me, for, to the entrepreneurial journey Sure.

And everything else. So I think one of the challenges for people is, is that, and I think in life in general, we tend to draw straight lines between where we are and where we wanna be. We do it in our mind, we do it in our strap plans, we do it in our business proposals that we write to get bank funding.

Uh, we do it when we tell our partner that we wanna leave our job. We draw a straight line from, I, I'm here now, but look where I'll be. And what I've learned over life is there are no straight lines. Yep. You know, there's a reason why maybe in nature that rivers are not straight. Mm-hmm. And so I think the thing that I would wanna just pause and maybe remind people of, you know, you could be on, you could beginning a be beginning your entrepreneurial journey.

You could be in it. For lots of years, uh, you could frankly have been in it and now you're out of it. Um, first, as long as you're moving towards who you wanna be and where you wanna be, then you're moving the right direction. [00:31:00] Mm-hmm. And I would say it in that order, as long as you're moving towards who you want to be mm-hmm.

What you wanna do and where you wanna be in life. And finances, in my opinion, comes secondary. So if, if being an entrepreneur or being an employee takes you more towards where you wanna be, that's great. But if it doesn't take you towards who you want to be, then I think it's the wrong journey. Hmm. 'cause I think that's the reality is when you show up fully present, when you full up, show up as yourself.

When you show up as your most unmodified. Self shameless plug. And the book is available also on my website, an online retailer, and also on Amazon and 350 other online retailers globally. Uh, shameless plug. Um, then I think you win. Hmm. And if that's taking you solely into entrepreneurship, great. If it's taking you into being an employee, that's great as well, as long as it's taking you more wholly into the wholeness and truth of who you are and [00:32:00] who you wanna be.

Hmm. Uh, 'cause anything else is a, is a horrible compromise that will regret at some point. And, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm a little older than you are, uh, Aiden. You know, I'm, I just turned 60. My wife just turned 65. We're officially seniors now. I get seniors coffee, which I really appreciate. My wife is a full-fledged senior.

So I, I ride that discount and put it away wet. I love it. I go, she's a senior. My wife hates it. I go, is it, do you have a senior's discount? Oh. Um, so we're seniors, but what I'm realizing is the best thing for me. About my own personal journey is, is that it's always led me into a greater expression of who I am.

Hmm. Not away from that. And so I would fundamentally make a terrible employee. Um, but partly because I'm not sure I could fully be who I am and do that. Not because being an employee is bad, but I have a unique wiring towards [00:33:00] independence. I have a unique wiring towards, uh, I was a solopreneur for most of my business.

Mm-hmm. Although that's a bit different today. I have some other people who work with me and for me, but I was a solopreneur. I've done this on my own and I kept it small for reasons. Mm-hmm. So, you know, again, this is where we have choices to make, you know, like, again, if we're, you know, if we're gonna be real true to marketing and sales podcasts, we should be talking about, you know, scale scalability.

You gotta scale. Um, maybe. Mm-hmm. For me, for me to scale my business when it was really finding its own as a training, coaching, consulting business, I would've had to quantify and codify and package the training material I was doing. And then I would've had to, like a lot of other companies do, and it's not wrong, it's just their journey.

Then you go out and hire a bunch of facilitators and they, they sell your program and they facilitate it. But that [00:34:00] literally made me wanna vomit. Um, that just wasn't for me. I could have made a ton more money over the years, tons more money, but working, customized, boutique bespoke, um, not having a canned way of looking at everything.

Um, I've approached my business more thinking it more like, like train tracks where I, I philosophically have a sense of how, uh, I, I, I do have a gift of seeing where a business is, or a sales system or process and help them understand based on where they want to go, what tracks to lay. Mm-hmm. But, but now the train is very different.

It might have this car first or this car first, or that car first. So what, so this is why I don't do off the shelf programs. So I create bespoke programs which have, which have, I mean, again, you're not reinventing the fundamentals of leadership every time you do a program. No, of course not. But the language that we [00:35:00] use becomes highly customizable to the ecosystem that we're in.

Um, the, uh, the problems we're solving are their problems. So we can weave all this into, in a very boutique, bespoke way. Mm-hmm. And I think the, the great, so that's been what I've enjoyed most because it allows for there to be authenticity and uniqueness, even in the product that we ultimately sell, or the service that we sell.

And that makes it work for me. Hmm. Um, and so again, but that's not everybody's journey. And it's not wrong to have a homogeneous, quite ubiquitous product that's not wrong, but it's wrong if it's wrong for you. Hmm. And if all you're doing is going out and finding some social media person to follow and you're just gonna emulate them and mimic them because you believe that's gonna give you success.

My strong provocation anyway, listening is, oh, I could give you a lot of money, but be careful that you don't equate that with success. Absolutely. Because you will trade. [00:36:00] You will trade yourself. I mean, there's an ancient text that says you can gain the whole world but lose your soul. I was just gonna say it.

Yep. Yeah. Like, and listen, you get one soul and once you compromise yourself internally, you, it's hard to recover because once you do it once, you'll do it again. And once you do it again, you'll do it always. And those compromises that we make along the way, again, can turn profit, can, uh, can, can seem wise in the moment, but the long-term exposure and cost of that, again now as a 60-year-old, I would say to people, it's not worth it.

Mm-hmm. You'll believe it's worth it. You will even think it's worth it when you live in your million dollar house. But one day you're gonna wake up and realize that those compromises were fundamental schisms that you really hard to cover up with some putty and duct tape. This is one of the things that I've always found the most compelling about the way that you [00:37:00] approach business, leadership, sales, marketing, all these things.

Is anyone tuning in in the middle of this episode would hardly know that this is a sale that we are sales and marketing guys. Right? You wouldn't know that because what you do, and I think, you know, one of the many millions of things that I've gleaned from you over the years is to understand that underneath all of these business problems and decisions and things are human decisions and problems and things, and that, um, fundamentally that is where these decisions are made, right?

You're, I famously quote you for saying that, you know, a given business does not exist. The people within that exist. If the people left tomorrow, the business would not continue operating. That's not how it works. Right? And so to take such a human approach to business, I think. Is such a unique, um, lens that so many people failed to do, I guess.

Well, yeah, and I think it's even harder now. I mean, again, there maybe there's gonna come a time where we're all buying [00:38:00] our stuff, uh, but with Elon's robots and there are no people anymore. I don't know, maybe that's gonna happen. Could be an interesting world. I'm not sure I wanna be here, but it could be interesting.

But until, unless that happens, uh, at most levels, businesses still are still involve human interchange. Mm-hmm. Particularly, probably, you know, people who are, you know, thinking or who are entrepreneurs or small entrepreneurs. And I've always said that the de this is the deceptive nature again of what we do.

And this is as marketers, as marketing consultants, as as sales professionals, whatever. I think we gotta be careful, we don't, uh, sort of swallow our own message too much. Hmm. What do you mean by that? And what I mean by that is, is that we talk, so we talk in structural terms, in marketing, we talk about, you know, is this B2C?

Is this, is this B2B? You know, and then of course everybody knows what that is. You know, this is business to consumer or business to business. And to your point, I've always said that's the fundamental problem. This actually is H two H, it's human [00:39:00] to human. And when you get that right, then everything else can fall in place.

Um, when you get that wrong, you think that you are convincing consumers when you're actually convincing Sally Bob or, or Frank. Mm-hmm. You can think that your target market is, you know, 30-year-old, you know, Anglo-Saxons when in fact it's, um, Bob, Sally, or Frank mm-hmm. Who don't always fit into a nice commercialized target market box apparently, although that's what we'd like to think it is.

So I really believe this is important, but I also think it's about important about running our business because. Then we have, uh, deep in integrity. We have deep appreciation and respect for the people who work hard in our business. We understand that people succeed and fail businesses. Don't. We understand that the high risk, high reward game we play as entrepreneurs is not with a business, but it's with people.

It's with ourselves, our families. [00:40:00] But if we ever have the privilege of having other employees, and we hold a sacred covenant obligation potentially that we often don't think about. And so I think the dehumanization of, uh, of business is problematic. And I think when we humanize it, we, we become so much better and smarter at so many things.

That's, that's again, that, that. If you're listening, you don't have to believe that. You know, if you, if by the way, if you're listening on amplifier, uh, the podcast amplifier, then you're hearing it through that lens. If you're listening it on, then Commodified podcast, you're listening it through that lens.

I would say to my own listeners that, you know, I always say you're listening for a reason. And one of the reasons you're listening is you should not adopt a structural and proper viewpoint to look at the world through your business, your life, your community, your community group. It doesn't matter.

[00:41:00] Organizations don't exist. Hmm. Um, when I call in to, you know, I called in Rogers the other day and I got terrible customer service, sorry, Rogers. And, um, but Rogers didn't answer the phone. Ted Rogers surely didn't answer, and no other person, maybe the person I was speaking is, was Rodriguez. Rogers potentially.

But the reality is I get terrible customer service 'cause I get terrible advice from another human. Hmm. By the way, that doesn't make the human terrible. Mm-hmm. More than likely makes them ill-equipped. Mm-hmm. But I didn't encounter the business, I encountered people. Mm-hmm. And until, unless that changes, I think every entrepreneur, every sales and marketing professional ought not to forget that.

That's my strong provocation. You, you can think that's nonsense if you want. I, I think if you think it's nonsense, I think you're wrong. And I think that that is a fundamental error that will cause [00:42:00] you to do things or expect things that are unreasonable and na unnatural. And this is what I think will be interesting to see about how AI continues to impact every aspect of business life, quite frankly, is I do think that it is going to, um.

Some, I hope, anyways, maybe this is overly optimistic, but I hope that it will increase our respect for the human component of just about everything. Because when you, um, have computers, robots, algorithms, whatever, that can do everything perfectly instantaneously and, you know, give you libraries of information without even thinking about it.

Like you, there's so much that gets lost in there. Right? And even, you know. Uh, doghouse Design Studio, my, you know, hand-drawn graphic design kind of side project. I have intentionally for the past year or two, really leaned into, um, hand-drawn, messy, [00:43:00] imperfect human things that, you know, bear the marks of its maker.

And rather than, I used to start graphic design on the computer that it was completely digital. I used a mouse and a keyboard. Now I start with my app. I still use digital tools, my apple pencil on my iPad, but nonetheless, it's my hand that is drawing these lines, that is making these shapes, that is doing these things.

And I have embraced that wholeheartedly because I love the things that are. Kind of imperfect and kind of messed up. And, you know, even again, even my amplifier podcasting studio, they're like, the philosophy goes deep on all of this. I love that it's shot with iPhones and it's kind of janky and it's, there's no man behind the curtain.

I am the man behind the curtain Here it is one guy running everything right. Um, that is both stressful and beautiful and it's fun and it's exciting and it's thrilling and things go wrong and you correct for, but like that human aspect of everything that we do, I think, uh, I hope that with the advent of [00:44:00] ai, we will revalue the human aspect of things.

And then especially so in business, I can't remember which, oh, it was, um, the sales book there. Are you pointing to my book? Oh, no, I'm just kidding. Unmodified available on Amazon. On Amazon. Go to your website by the, to my website signed copy unmodified.com. The book, I, there's a lot of business books on the shelf behind you, which are all great books.

I'm looking for, I think it was Jeb Blunt's, um, or No, it's, is it Jeb Blunt? Is it, um, oh gosh. It's about closing deals. Uh oh, Jeb. Oh, Jeb. That's probably Jeb. Yeah. Which, why can't I find, or it's Anthony. It's either Anthony. It's Anthony. That's what it is. I can't say his last name. The law Start of closing.

What's his last name? Anno. You just dropped the, I the, I can't, I can't say that last name. Anthony Anno. I just say Anthony. My, my man Anthony, the law started closing. So he's, it's 10 ish chapters, amazing chapters, all about, um, how to close deals as a salesperson. And one of the last chapters in there to me that I found like hit me like a hammer in the [00:45:00] face.

The whole book is amazing, but the last chapter I thought was hilarious. Because the entire book teaches you about systems and processes and repeatable things. And so, you know, you being a car salesman, right? Yeah. And then one of the last chapters before he finishes the book is, but, uh, don't forget that people buy from people.

And so, uh, you know, it doesn't mean you have to be absolutely the most likable guy ever. But don't be an a-hole. Don't be someone that people hate and remember that at the end of the day, they are buying from you and you are a part of the equation. And don't undervalue that. Everything else I just said is still valid and valuable, but don't underestimate the aspect that you as an individual bring to the sales deals that you have.

And so I don't think he meant to undo the entire book's worth of argumentation that he did. And then if anything, it enhances it. But to me it just stood in such stark contrast to the rest of the book of like. Don't take your eyes off the prize. Don't forget that at the end of the day, a human being [00:46:00] is on both sides of the equation.

And it might be a couple human beings on both sides of the equation or what have you. But don't forget that there's a human there, you know? And, and you know what I love about that? I think what he's doing, he's pointing out the wisdom of paradox. Hmm. And so, and, and by the way, uh, my son Chris and I are working on a new book, uh, on this subject.

This are good. 'cause I was gonna ask you what's coming next on, on the subject. We, we'll get to it later, but, so we're working on a new book about the paradox as a sales success. So, um, and by the way, it's been very hard. We're struggling to get it written because we're both very busy and trying to figure our life.

Plus I decided to write another book in the middle of it, which wasn't a good idea. So, well great way to way lay a project, start another project. Um, but I, I will say that he's pointing out the wisdom of paradox. So it isn't a neither or it's a both and, and he's pointing out a paradoxical pull. At the end of that book that needs to be maintained.

Which I, which by the way is super wise and it's why I love 'em as a writer because most writers would not be willing to introduce at the [00:47:00] end. Because to your point, the danger is people think you just contradicted what you just said, but you didn't. Uh, a paradox is not a contradiction. It's different. Uh, and so I love the idea of paradox 'cause it comes from the Greek two smaller words and it literally means to cast dice alongside.

So when we linking of paradox, or actually I'm wrong about that. I misspoke. That's parable anyways, that's for another podcast. You know what? But that leads into my next point. Embrace imperfection. It's human because I just screwed up, but it's okay. Listen to me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, so, okay. Just hold stop for a second.

You stop. Okay, this is my podcast. Now I come off. Okay. We were supposed to end this at 50 minutes because I have some technical requirements, but I have a, a proposition I'm can make live. Alright. Let's just keep it going and have the conversation as long as we wanna have it. 'cause I know you do longer format.

Sure. And I'll just have my producers cut it into two episodes, part one and part two. Ooh. Sounds interesting. Let's just, 'cause I think there's still [00:48:00] lots to explore. Absolutely. There's Do I, I do wanna go back to a point that you're making earlier and it tucks into what I just did. So for all you listening, I made a mistake.

Paradox and parable are different and parable means in Greek to, to cast ice alongside. So, but let's move away from that. Go back to something you said. This is the danger with AI is that it creates false. Sense of per of perfection. Hmm. And I think that the entrepreneurial journey, I think in sales and marketing, we have to be reminded to embrace not perfection, but but the process of evolution of getting a little bit better.

Hmm. Iteration, uh, iteration. Correct. And I think that the problem we're running into is, is that we're, we're, we're losing the wisdom of iteration. We, we, we, we can say it, we want it, it comes out relatively perfect first time, quickly, uh, time and [00:49:00] percolation. And, uh, iteration is important. And I think it's important in sales and marketing because there again, it's only perfect, uh, in the pitch.

It's only perfect in the, in the boardroom. It's only perfect, uh, in the marketing meeting. Uh, it's not perfect when you get in the real world 'cause you encounter forces you didn't understand. Uh, the wind is stronger, uh, people are more resistant. Uh, the market wants to go in a different direction. Um, uh, somebody tariffs the world, you know, things, things happen, right?

So I do think that there's wisdom in what you were saying and about embracing our own imperfection, but the imperfection of the process. Um, and that's hard by the way, I think when you're working with customers, because customers expect perfection out of the can. I think sometimes what customers wanna buy from us when, you know, if I think back to the days of when I was more on the marketing side, people wanted to buy a perfect campaign.

Hmm. [00:50:00] I think that's a problem because I think every good campaign is iterative. I think it's, it's, I think a campaign only fundamentally fails if we don't learn. Mm-hmm. So I would always wanna invite people into experimentation. I actually believe from a sales process perspective, one of the things when I talk about sales process, I have developed over the years some fairly, you know, fundamental thinking and rigid thinking, yet flexible around process.

And I do believe that great salespeople and great sales process understands and has a part of it that's about experimentation. Mm-hmm. And I think we should openly invite our customer into experimentation, because at the end of the day, most of what we're doing is a well-placed hunch. Mm-hmm. If we're really honest.

And so I think we should not lie to people about that. I think we should be honest, and I think we should invite our customers into experimentation. Hmm. What I'm curious about, so whether this is you training other sales, marketing leaders, what [00:51:00] have you, to embrace experimentation or whether, I gotta ask you very personally, you doing it in your own business as you work, especially with, um, you know, leadership and executive level type people.

Experimentation is risky and scary, at least to the average person, right? So I'm curious to know from your perspective, how do you as a salesperson or as a sale, a trainer of salesperson, however you wanna interpret this. How do you remove or make comfortable the, uh, level of risk and, and dealing with, especially people with different risk tolerances, right?

Because, you know, uh, someone like me, and certainly like you, if you've been a lifelong entrepreneur, you certainly have a higher tolerance for risk than I would say the average person. And again, I, I really like what you said, that that's perceived risk, that's not actual risk that, um, you know, maybe a day job is not as stable as one might believe.

But how, again, especially, you know, I, I just think at a [00:52:00] higher level, at companies and at the level that you generally tend to deal with, the risk feels scarier. This is my assumption. I'm making a lot of assumptions here. Risk feels scarier because the stakes are higher. Because if this doesn't go quite well, um, a lot of people could be hurt or the company could be hurt or we could do a lot of damage.

Right. How do you. Encourage your customers or your leaders or what have you to embrace risk, become comfortable with it, and so on. So, wow, that's, uh, I don't, I need a cigar for that question. I know. And maybe a scotch. Um, great question. So first of all, I think part of the problem or challenge is we, I think the way we frame things is critically important.

Okay? So if we juxtaposition, I have a decision, you have a decision, you can do something that has, is risky or something that has no risk, well, you're gonna choose the thing that has quote, no risk. The thing is, I would propose that's not true. [00:53:00] Everything has risk. So part of it has to do with framing the argument or the conversation.

This is not a choice between do this risky thing or do this non-risky thing. It's do this risky thing or this risky thing. It starts there. Hmm. So it's about reframing certainty. 'cause inaction is also a form of risk. Correct. And inaction's a decision. See, it's not about, see, this, the other thing is we say, do you wanna make a decision?

Well, a, a non-decision is a decision. So it's not about a decision or no decision, and it's not about risk or no risk. So part of this is becoming craftier wiser, a little more cunning about the language frameworks we use because we actually predict a lot of our response and then blame it on the customer because we frame it in a construct that predicts our, our, our, our answer.

So unpack that. Well, I believe fundamentally that our conversational framework, and more particularly our questions, and for [00:54:00] those of you who listed the UNC Commodified Podcast, won't be the first time you've heard me say this. Questions have a superpower. And that superpower is they both propel, they cause to happen, but they also predict the conversation.

So you and I are having a conversation about risk mitigation or understanding. 'cause you asked me a question, I did not respond to your question and say, you know what? Oh, so sad the blue Jays didn't win. Uh, win the World Series 'cause that'd be a stupid answer and a silly answer to your question about risk.

So your question in fact has a superpower which can work for or against you. It propels or causes a response to want to be given, but it also predicts the response. So our conversational frameworks and the questions we ask actually predict our response. Then we use that to justify. So I think part of it is, is how we frame it.

Risk. No risk. No risk. Risk. Maybe a little more risk, a little less risk, but risk, risk decision, non-decision, no decision or decision. It's still a decision. So first of all, that's the first framework. I think the second [00:55:00] is, is that. Is that inviting people into experimentation doesn't have to sound again, it's all about framework.

I gotta take these off for a second. I got an itchy ear. Alright. You do what you Hey, sorry about that. On the podcast, I got an itchy ear. I had to itch it. It's only in the video that it'll show us. So, which bugging me, I had to itchy ear. I had to deal with it. Hopefully I don't got any ears now. I'm good.

My fingers fairly clean. Um, I think so that's the construct first of all. The second piece of it is, is that I think if we do it well and we do it with honesty, uh, we can do it. And this is again about framework. So I will, uh, what I say to people about process. Mm-hmm. So when I, even when I have a project that is really moving towards a fixed process and a predictable way, we might wanna do it 'cause we're trying to, uh, enhance the outcome while mitigating the risk of failure naturally.

Yeah. Which by the way, so I use an example and I say to my customers, and I always use this language, I said, the one thing I want you and I to keep in mind. Is that the process we're gonna design [00:56:00] is our servant, not our master. We don't serve it. It serves us. And so when we realize that it's not serving us, that's the moment that we need to embrace evolution.

'cause if we double down, we will actually be moving against ourselves. So I'm inviting people actually into experimentation with that language, but in a way that I think most people are gonna say, well, of course I don't wanna be run by the process. So the language I choose to use ultimately is it's selling them a philosophy.

That process or this fixed thing we're creating or this program we're creating is it's only, it's more risky if we see it as our master. And that it runs us. So I think there are constructs in the way to describe things in such a way that you can bring people into it. I also know, know from a neuroscience perspective and research that I've done that [00:57:00] when we use experimental language, like, let's experiment with this or let's test this out, it actually triggers a dopamine release.

It, it, it, it triggers a release of chemicals that actually produce, reduce anxiety and the fear of risk. And it actually heightens our curious, inquisitive natures is that because you're seeing failure as a more likely outcome, and so it because you're expecting it, it's less scary. Is that why? So, so that's part of it.

But the other part of it is, is, is the, whether I say it or not, if I'm not inviting you to experiment, I'm right. I'm inviting you to make a decision that has irreparable irrevocable outcome. Your mind immediately says. Holy crap. I don't, I don't wanna, I, oh, there's a lot here at risk, uh, uh, I, I shouldn't make a decision.

Mm-hmm. So our language locks people into fear and anxiety, actually, because, 'cause if it's not an experiment, then it's a irrevocable, potentially [00:58:00] irreparable unrecoverable decision. Not usually the way anybody wants to approach something. Yep. Now we never use that language, but emotionally and psychologically, that's how we hear that proposition.

So, when, so good research suggests to us that when we're selling to somebody, or we're making a proposition argument, if we bring them into, Hey, you know, based on my experience, this is the best way to go. But factors are always different in each environment. And so we wanna, and again, I'll use that same analogy.

I say, let's keep our hands open and not clenched in relationship to releasing this idea into your environment. This language helps me frame, I think the wonder of experimentation. I also think it just honors the fact that this is what we're doing. We just don't wanna admit it. Yep. Absolutely. We, we are experimenting because again, you can take the most pri the tried, proven marketing model or sales [00:59:00] pitch or whatever.

As soon as the, uh, the fundamental of that script, it's the practicality of the real world. There are factors which are unique in that moment and then in every moment, because we're not releasing things into the a Petri dish this, and, and so it's not controllable. And so I also think that this idea of, you know, Adam Grant talks about it in the book, think again.

Great idea. We should be thinking like scientists. So I think that entrepreneurs, I think that sales and marketing professionals, I think, I think in general, we need to adopt. The scientific mindset, which is different than I think we think about it, we think about science as again, uh, irrevocable truth, but science is actually hypothesis testing, changing.

Evolving and reinterpreting the data, not in the smallness of how we want it to be seen, but in the vastness that it presents ourself to us, [01:00:00] that's a scientific mindset. I believe this is true. Therefore, I create a test that can, I want to confirm it, but I'm open to the possibility that my, my experiment will actually deny my proposition or my hypothesis, and I will be challenged to come to a new conclusion.

The problem is most people double down that the science experiment was wrong 'cause their hypothesis was correct, and that makes for very foolish science. Man, there's so much wisdom in everything you just said. One of the things that just kept coming to mind for me is a couple years ago I had stumbled upon, um, Amazon, the, you know, massive, uh, company I had stumbled upon, by the way, my, my book's available on Amazon.

There you go. And his book's available on Amazon. I had stumbled upon their leadership principles, which is actually kind of interesting, and there was about 10 of them, and it was just kind of this, you know, not real fancy page. I think they've linen it up over the past couple of years. But the one leadership principle that has stood out to me that I for [01:01:00] years have not been able to get outta my head is called a bias for action.

I'm sure I've probably spoken about it in a million different places. And it talks about how, um, at Amazon they value quick decision making because among many different reasons why it's valuable, most decisions are reversible. And I think that that is a truth that is so easy to forget, especially in business and especially kind of, um, at executive levels and so on.

And again, I'm not at all saying, oh yeah, let's just gamble away our, uh, you know, grandma's life savings or what have you. But like, I think that we, as what I believe I hear you saying, we get locked into this idea that everything is sink or swim, that every decision we make is do or die. That you cannot step outta line.

That there, that, you know, we pretend that the path to success is not littered with failure. Right. This kind of circles back to, you know, one of the things I was saying before when you were asking about what is amplifier? You know, am I eight in 6.0 right now? What have you? Like I am [01:02:00] continually trying to become.

More and more comfortable with failure and failing in public because eventually something will pay off. You know, I have, um, a buddy of mine, a guy I know, uh, we went to church together years and years ago in Hamilton. He makes a living, uh, selling online courses. So he is a web developer and in the web developer world, he is kind of a minor celebrity.

Um, and he makes a living selling courses. And these are extensive university, he's taught at universities, but like university level courses and 50% of them he gives away for com. For free, completely free, no money spent. And then the other 50%, um, maybe it's even only 25%, he charges, uh, much closer to what it's worth, a hundred bucks a course, which is still an absolute steal.

But I had met with him one time for coffee and I had asked him like, how do you get into this as a career? This is so interesting. And, you know, I knew a bit about his career, but one of the biggest things that he advised me to do, if my dream was to one [01:03:00] day, you know, become an online influencer educator, make courses, do have a similar business model to his is he said, try 10 different things.

Put them all out there, don't spend a ton of time on everyone, but just see what gets a reaction and double down on that and throw away the things that don't work. And I'm sure at some level, fundamentally that is what he did over and over and over. And I think that by and large, that's really good advice.

And so I'm trying to um, you know, now years later, do an even better job embodying that, of like, alright, cool, I have this idea for a podcast or something like that. Let's just see what happens. Let's try it out. You know, and yeah, it goes back even, you know, this idea of just ship or all of these things, uhhuh, like we get so locked in and, you know, there's another book I read, I can't remembers the idea that, you know, 90% is good enough, you know, in the sense that.

Do we actually get way more a result for the extra 10% that we labor four times as long to get? And the answer is typically not, right? So I think this again, challenges the idea of perfection. We [01:04:00] iteration is where we ought to go. I mean, I, I've always been into experimentation even from a marketing perspective years ago when, you know, when email was just a thing, which I wish it was never a thing, but it's a thing.

Can't go, can't turn the clock back on that evil little quandary. But I would always say to my customers, let's design three different emails and let's, I was all always into beta testing. I said, let's measure, is there measurable difference between the response. And so everything became an experiment. And I believe this is part of the problem even in marketing, is that we take one approach.

And again, it goes back to it worked or it didn't. Yep. Well, that's, uh, again, anybody who thinks the wisest marketing idea is put your, all your eggs in one basket and hope you get some chickens. A little bit problematic. So I always had this idea that we would experiment, you know, we'd do this, we do this, we'll try an ad.

Or if I did ads, I would do three different calls to action. Not one [01:05:00] and one. I might not even have one. And in one ad I would design this way, and this one I'd subtly design a little differently. And then we would look at. And use it for market research and go, wow. Well, we didn't think, but that one seems to have for some reason, gotten more response.

Of course, then we pretended we knew why, which we didn't really, uh, but we, we became wiser as we went. So I've always believed in this idea of experimentation. And again, I think if you're in sales and marketing and you think you're not experimenting, I think you're the one that's deceived. And then you've gotta deceive your customer real hard so that they think you're not experimenting.

You're experimenting. And I do believe psychologically it's just better to invite people in to the experiment. And I also believe then it dials down the, the, the, the kind of decision they're making. It makes it easier for them to say yes to something that has [01:06:00] definitely less risk because it's changeable.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's evolvable, which is probably not a word, but, well, one of the things that I, I find interesting about this, you know, and it kind of ties back to what you were saying before about, um, elements of this being luck, right? And being situational not existing in a vacuum, being, um, you know, these elements that we can't control.

What I, what I have always wrestled with, um, you know, in terms of what I do with marketing and, you know, I meet with friends, colleagues, what have you, and give them my advice on like, Hey, if your business was my business, here's what I would do differently. Um, yeah, there's always an element of like, you know, that's just what I think and you're gonna have to try it out and find out for yourself.

Right. Um, early on, you know, when I was a wedding photographer, I had bought an online course from a guy, um, who is a local wedding photographer. He still exists. He is still, you know, I think he's got a million subscribers on YouTube now, what have you. Um, and honestly, a very solid guy and is [01:07:00] hustled hard for the success he's had.

But one of the things I remember in one of the earliest courses that he made that I bought, um, and again, it was like something that transformed in my business and therefore my life. What he talked about was how one of the biggest, um, you know, hits of success, if you will, that he had was that it was, he had this perfect storm timing of a new wedding venue had opened up in town and he happened to be one of the first photographers that'd ever shot there.

This is, uh, especially when SEOI would still argue SEO is still important, but, um, when, you know, before social media was a thing, he blogged about it. He had all the right SEO things and that earned him hundreds of thousands of dollars in business and then he became buddies with the venue and all kinds of stuff, preferred vendor.

But, you know, one of his pieces of advice I respected that he knew that that was not always going to be repeatable for his audience, but what he said was. If you ever find yourself in a similar opportunity, that is arguably the [01:08:00] situation that changed my life and I would encourage you go out and do the thing.

I didn't have quite that success, but that balance between, uh, you know, hard work and luck, I think in all of business, but in sales, marketing, um, I think is such an interesting thing. You know, going back to leadership, even that you can know all the right leadership principles, but depending on who you are leading, some of those are gonna work and not work.

Right? It won't work. And, and it goes back to there's some really great wisdom and, uh, Jim Collins book, uh, good to Great, excellent, you know, really great book. Which by the way, many of the companies they studied in the original book ended up failing, which caused people to sort of think the whole thing should be thrown out.

Which I don't really, yeah, I don't agree with. Um, because they were just experiments. They were working and then they didn't work and who knows, but he wrote a companion book and lots of others, but there's solid principles in Good to Great. And one of the things he talks about when you talk about leadership, which I think tucks into this idea, he said that what he called Level five leaders, he had this looking at leaders and he saw different [01:09:00] levels.

A level five leader for him was some, and, and he had lots of different attributes. One of the things he said is Level five leaders. When something happens to them, uh, or they experience something that is good and works well, they tend to look out the window of their life car and attribute it to others and to luck itself.

But when something happens poorly goes wrong, they don't look out the window, they look in the rear view mirror and they look at themselves and they ask themselves questions that lead them to their own accountability. And how they were complicit potentially, and what their responsibility in the failure might have been.

They don't look outside to blame. They look inside to claim responsibility. Therefore, by the way, pulling their own power back to themselves because the one thing I've learned over the years is that when you push accountability [01:10:00] away from you, you actually disempower yourself. People don't realize this.

So when I choose blame over accountability, I'm also choosing to disempower myself. Because if you are a hundred percent to blame, you're also a hundred percent responsible to fix it. So therefore, my blame of you in absolutely disempowers me in the process because the less I am responsible for the problem or believe I am, whether it's in society or in in my business, then the less powerful I am to solve it.

So there's a, there's a problem in the, again, the, the structure and construct. Which really, that's been a subject that I've really tucked into for years. This idea of accountability, that's a big thing for me. Um, and it's a big part of what I teach in leaders. And, and even from a, whether I don't do a lot of market, I don't do very much marketing consulting anymore.

Although I have a, I do have one marketing team. I [01:11:00] still do a lot of work with still one of my customers. And I really love that. 'cause it gives me, you know, I feel a little bit like, um, like I feel like, I feel like when I'm, when I'm wearing these headphones, like I'm sort of in my basement and it's like 1972 and I got my headphones on and I'm listening to Kansas, kicking it, old school, kicking it, old school.

When I get to talk to marketing teams, I'm like, I feel like I'm kicking it. Old school. And then every once in a while, I almost sound like I know what I'm talking about. Just, just for a moment in time. Brilliant. It's brilliant. I love it. But, but I do think this area of accountability is important. You know, entrepreneurship in sales, marketing.

I think that, again, it's so easy to stick your hand up when the campaign went well and every, oh, we got all the, you know, we got all the clicks and likes and we increase our subscribers by the, you know, and our net promoter scores went up and we're like, oh yeah, it was all my work. It was so good. And then when something goes like pear shaped and gets all cocked up, we're like, oh, that was market forces.

They were on by, well, okay, hold on. [01:12:00] Which is it here? Yep. So accountability is a big part of success. Hmm. And uh, and it we're not great at accountability in society anymore. What do you do? You can decline to answer this question or you can pivot away in a different way if you'd rather, what do you do when you are working with people, whether they are direct customers or just people you're mentoring or whatever, that lack that, like at a deep level, lack that fundamental accountability and are happy to.

Put the blame on others. How do you start to paint the picture and open someone's eyes? Well, first of all, for me, I try to, I try to encourage them. I try to act, I try to have the same conversation we just did now about how their questions are important. More importantly than questions, actually, it starts back further.

It's their conversations. So I have this fundamental belief that's the conversations I have in my head and I have with others that actually begin that process. That creates an environment of [01:13:00] accountability. I would see fundamentally as a, as conversation, as an enabler of accountability. It it, it enables accountability to be more present when I have a better conversation with myself or of you, which is around accountability that goes back though than the other di is I, I do believe the conversation is propelled and predicted by the questions we ask.

So that's where questions come in. But it's more on the conversation side. And so I, I wanna, I encourage them and I'll ask them questions that will. Um, make it harder for them to let themselves off the hook. Okay. How do you do that? Well, questions that sound more like this, you know, and, and I usually, I try to be kind, but not too kind.

Um, it might sound like this. So, Aiden, is there any possibility that you have any responsibility for the current problem you're experiencing? Hmm. And then I allow them to, you just like creek the door open a little. Correct. And then I allow them to thing, and then if they're not going where I will go, I might say.[01:14:00] 

So what if I could propose to you that you are partly responsible the situation because you ma you had agency and you made this decision two years ago. And is it possible that if you didn't make that decision two years ago, you wouldn't be encountering this today? Hmm. See, another thing I think about accountability is accountability is connected to agency.

So the greater sense of agency we have, or sense of self-determination. See, we love self-determination when it works for us, but self-determination means it, it is exactly that. It's the ability to determine your experience as self, which means that we are responsible at some level for our experience at any given moment because of choices we make.

Now, I don't like that by the way. I mean, I've had situations in business where I've endured certain consequences. 'cause all choices have consequences, good or good or bad. And I've endured certain consequences. And when I've endured them, it is very easy to adopt. A, uh, wasn't me. [01:15:00] I have no part to play in this.

But then when I'm really honest, and if I'm very honest with myself, which again is usually aided by scotch and scars, I say, you know, actually, if I really wanna really honest with myself. I, I could have done this differently, which would've helped me avoid this. Therefore, I'm not just a helpless victim. I, I, I feel victimized.

Mm-hmm. But I'm not a helpless victim. In fact, I had agency, I just didn't understand the consequences or implication of the decision I was making at the time. Of course. But that doesn't mean that I didn't make a decision that ultimately had some complicit nature in the outcome of the situation. I actually think that's really wonderful for me because at that moment I become a more empowered.

Hmm. Because now I can say I can change the future by making a different decision. That's agency. So I think these things are all connected and I think accountability is a big part of business. And we, we, again, we, for, we forget [01:16:00] these things, what you're describing, that kind of, you know, that poor me mentality to that.

Okay. Maybe I did have some role in that. To go from that place to that place. You talked about, you know, journeys not necessarily being linear. Yeah, totally fair. I, you know, I've heard, you know, someone describe, uh, in like a spiritual context, um, that, you know, the, the length of time between when you sin and when you repent, the shorter that gets, the more, um, you know, grown up and mature and responsible.

You are, uh, how do you, and how quickly do you go from poor me? This is completely outta my hands. I could never have seen this coming. I'm screwed. This sucks. And the world hates me to, oh, okay, maybe I did have something to do with this. And like, how, how does one, so even for someone like you who, you know, likes accountability or likes the idea and explored the idea of accountability, uh, quite intently.

When, because what you're describing is deeply personal to you, right? How [01:17:00] do you pep talk yourself from being in the miserable place to the responsible place? So I think for me, I've learned to, um, embrace that first feeling of victimization and frustration. Embrace it. Embrace it. Anger maybe, but to contain it and limit it.

How? So? Part of it is, uh, I give myself a certain amount of time to be super pissed, okay. At everybody but myself. And then I say, okay, I'm done. I'm done now. Um, so I I, we have, uh, we have seasons, tickets to the kitchen rangers, uh, and, uh, I love the coach's philosophy about wins or losses. So he has a philosophy that, um, the team, after every game, the team members gets five minutes to celebrate the win.

Or to bitch about the loss and then we move on. Hmm. It's a containment strategy and I [01:18:00] think it's wise. I think that if you take a strategy that I failed, if I got frustrated, I failed utterly If I felt like a victim and everybody else pissed all over me and I wasn't the cause, and we expect ourselves never to have those feelings and then we're, then we probably predict our own failure because it's not, it's not true human.

We have reaction. I agree. I agree. So, but what I've learned over the years is to give myself time to utterly just be venting, vi, you know, vicious. Um, caddy, is that in your head? Do you journal, do you person do this with a person? Oh, sometimes it's in my head. Sometimes I write it down. Sometimes I just go in the basement and scream at my dog.

Okay. That's why he needs therapy. Could be that. What's your dog name? Poor Jackson. Jackson. Um, but I've learned to just get it out. Okay. Okay. You know, like a, like a literally like a, like a break room where you break things. Uhhuh or scream Uhhuh would be a good idea, but I think the idea that you're not gonna feel those feelings, I think you [01:19:00] gotta feel those feelings.

I agree. But you gotta contain them. And so you, I think it's okay to give yourself a few minutes. And again, I think everybody's different. If you can do it for an hour and recover, great. If you can't, if you, if five minutes is too long and you can never get your head outta that, probably too long. People have to decide that.

But for me. I, I, I know I'm gonna have a reaction. So, I mean, again, think about it. It's like you stick your hand into something, you get burnt, you immediately have a reaction. You then you sit back and say, well, that's sore. Let me fix it. And oh, maybe I shouldn't put my hand in there again. That was kinda stupid.

So you take responsibility eventually, but in the beginning it's the flame's fault. Right. Who lit this fire? Oh, I did. Like, you know, all those things you go through, like, you know, it's like you go, who turned the stove on? Uh, well I did. 'cause we're making dinner, right? Like, yeah. Right. So you, you have this moment of like total, like, I have no idea who in the universe did this until you go, oh shoot, it was me.

Right? Um, and then you start embracing your accountability. But I do think it's about a containment strategy. Well, [01:20:00] a very personal example of that for me. Um, earlier this week, uh. Was it this week? Yeah, we um, we took our family photo for our Christmas photo and oh, by the way, they are the best photo. And every time we get the Henree photo, my wife says, I, by the way, I hate you, Aiden Henree.

'cause every time my wife gets this card message, she goes, why can't we take a great family photo like that? And I'm like, we're not the henna breeze. There you go. That's very good. Sorry to interrupt, but I have, I have pain over these photos. Oh, well I am sorry. Not sorry Pam. You have my number. You can just text me.

We'll arrange something. I'll help you up. We, uh. Yeah, well, I now have four kids, which is great. And four kids, and two adults is a lot of people to wrangle into one selfie where everyone is, you know, approximating something close to a smile and looking at the camera. And so, um, I can't remember the first time we had tried it.

I think we had, we had done some photos earlier in the day and, uh, it was like, oh shoot, we forgot about [01:21:00] this. And so when you ran out, uh, we came out to the doghouse this year to do our family photo, and my kids were not having it by this point. They had done great earlier in the day. They were not having it there.

And so they were frustrated. And then I got frustrated and, okay, forget this. We're not doing this. Whatever. We'll try to canceling Christmas. We're canceling Christmas. And so then, um, and one of the most beautiful convicting things ever is my daughter, my five-year-old daughter. Oh my gosh. It messes me up.

She'll, she later she goes, dad, I'm sorry that you're having a really bad day. And I'm like, I'm not having a really bad day, but I was overly and un rationally emotional about something that truly does not matter. So that's been an incredible, uh, mirror reflected back to me of how my conduct is in, how my kids are in, uh, perceiving my conduct.

So that's really great. But, but the, the experiment, so then the next day, um, it was time to go back out for family photos or to try the Christmas card photo again. And as, [01:22:00] uh, we were putting on everyone's shoes to come out to the doghouse, I said, okay, everyone, we're gonna be happy this time. And then I thought to myself, and I said, all, I said, even daddy.

'cause I had to admit taking responsibility. I was, I, I succumbed to the misery. Right? There was ultimately. There was no winning it. And so, um, it was dumb of me to have conceded that, uh, I, I was going to allow myself to express that frustration in front of my kids. And, you know, I, again, are there healthy ways to do that?

I don't think it, I don't think a parent should never fight in front of their kids, or that kid should never see their parent emotional. But certainly the, the amount of frustration that I expressed over something very trivial, like a Christmas card, right? Yeah. But again, it was that moment to say, everyone's gonna be happy this time, everybody, including me.

Including me. You know, but you, I love what you're talking about. 'cause I think a lot of wisdom just does come from children. Oh, absolutely. And so you maybe part of the wisdom of how do you deal with this stuff comes from kids. I mean, like, kids have this propensity to like [01:23:00] absolutely lose their shit. And then two minutes later we're like, uh, hey Johnny, come on.

Let's go get a, let's go get a Popsicle. Yeah. Like, seriously, we should, we should be like this because we, we are mood swingy adults just. Can't get over shit. Like they just, like, we get lost. Right. And I do think, like, again, whether it's accountability, whether it's recovering from a failed marketing campaign, you know, again, if you bring it into your psyche, that's one thing.

Again, it's a difference between saying, I'm a failure and this failed. Right. It's a big difference. Huge. Monumental. Right. And, and I will say over the years I struggled with this. Years ago, I fundamentally saw myself as a failure. I, you know, I came from a broken home. It was very shattered. It was, there was a lot of stuff.

And, you know, again, maybe I, again, 'cause I'm older now and I've learned a few things, but, you know, I, I dealt a lot with self-hatred when I was a kid. I did not [01:24:00] like myself. I did not even, I didn't, I hated myself. And it wasn't just, I didn't like myself. Hmm. I mean, I used to write in a book over and over again.

You know, like when you write lines on that board. Yeah. Chalkboard. I wrote, I wrote a lot of lines on the chalkboard at school, but when I got into difficult situations as a child, I had a book, uh, that I wrote in, and I would write, I hate Tim Wind. I hate Tim Wind over and over again. So I, I personalized every failure to my own psychological detriment.

The one thing I've learned over the, the, the years, and I often say it to people, and this is another thing when I talk about contextualizing experience, I say, you know, failure is the price of having a belly button. You got a belly button, you've screwed up you and that. And what people don't realize is when I say things like that, or I'm willing to embrace experimentation and failure, um, is that that's not my natural disposition.

My [01:25:00] natural disposition and my nurture was towards self hatred. When thing, when anything was mis and any mistake was made, um, I still struggle today when I make a mistake. I don't like it. You know, when I publish a book, uh, and I, after it gets published, you realize there's a mistake in it or two that is painful for me and it assaults my psyche about perfection.

So again, if you're listening in, please don't think like I got it all figured out. 'cause like, I, this is why I did a podcast a long time ago that I said everybody needs a coach and a therapist. And I believe both of those things, if you're in business, you need a coach. Uh, you also need a therapist. You, you need people who can help you process things, help you get out of your own way.

Um, I think employees, this is why they're, if you've got that coverage in your EAP program, you ought to use it. Uh, it's not weakness, it's strength. We've been taught for many years. I mean, my generation was taught that getting therapeutic [01:26:00] help is weakness. I believe it's the strongest thing a person can do.

Because when you get into that kind of world, you have to deal with your shit. And you have to be honest about who you are and who you're not. Mm-hmm. Who you wanna be and who you can't be or whatever. So I do think that all of this is part of the journey. And what I love about this conversation is that we've gone in a thousand different direction, which is great, but I think that's also what real life is like if you, if you have linear conversations just all about, you know, sales and marketing and promos, and you're not having the human part of the conversation, which delves into the critical psychological impact of failure, the, uh, and 'cause campaigns don't fail, it feels like we did.

And so these are highly personal things. And when you're a solopreneur or a small company, you're putting so much of your heart and soul into everything you do that it feels, and it is deeply personal. So putting up enough emotional [01:27:00] walls between your success. Or your failure, I think is important because if we take on too much of our success into our, our persona, then we, we are unnaturally needing that fix all the time.

If we take on too much failure into our persona, then we're constantly berating ourselves. And this is where I think it comes back to just understanding that we're wonderfully human and deeply flawed, uh, and in what we do. The problem is we live in a world that is expecting us to create things that is potentially wonderfully human, but never deeply flawed.

And I think this is a problem, and I think this is again, the admission that, hey. This is my best thinking today or this is an evolution or, uh, and sometimes I'll say, going back to your point, how do I bring people into this world? There are times where I'll say to people, I'm [01:28:00] gonna say something right now that years ago I wouldn't have ever said or I would've taught the opposite.

Hmm. But what I've come to understand is there's another way to look at this. Something I said was only one way to look at 10 years ago when I encountered you is no longer the way I see that. And I'm, and I will, I'll share my journey of change because that normalizes evolution. Um, I listen to a podcast, uh, podcaster Rob Bell, who I appreciate a lot and had Rob on my show one time.

And Rob has this wonderful way of doing things. Rob's gone through a lot of personal evolution over the years. Anybody who knows Rob's story would know that won't get into it, but, and there's times where Rob is confronted by somebody with something he wrote 'cause he is been a New York time bestseller for a long time.

And, and you know, at one point was considered, you know, one of the closest people to Oprah from a, from a spiritual perspective in Oprah's life. And so there's things that he said or [01:29:00] wrote, or did. And today he fundamentally doesn't believe that. Mm-hmm. And he's had to reconcile those two things. 'cause he reconciled in the beginning by saying, oh, I was, I was wrong.

I didn't believe that. Which isn't the true, he did believe it. So he has this wonderful saying of say he, when somebody says, but you used to say this, he'll chuckle and say, yeah, you're right. Now. That was 10 Robs ago. Yeah. And I really like that idea. 'cause it's, there's evolution. That was 10 Tims ago. That was five Aidan ago.

Uh, that was three iterations of this marketing piece ago. Uh, that was version 1.10 of 40 of the website ago. Mm-hmm. Uh, and this is also just makes it more human. We're constantly evolving and changing and, and I think we honor it. We dishonor it by expecting perfection out of the gate. So I think it's important.

I think what you were [01:30:00] hitting on there is what I think is one of the most compelling lessons that all leaders especially, uh, should learn. And I mean, this, again, in my world, is especially prevalent in sales marketing. It's not just limited to leadership, the separation, uh, within your identity of like what you do and who you are and where you find your value.

Right. And I mean, obviously myself as, uh, a born again Christian, I find my sense of identity and self-worth in who I, or what I understand as the way that God views me, right? I, you know, have worked with all kinds of different people. Some of faith, some have not. And. I think the thing that is, it can happen to anyone, faith or no faith.

Um, when you associate exactly what you're saying, your success or your failure as the equation of how you are valued as a person, that's an incredibly dangerous thing. Whether you are wildly successful [01:31:00] or a wild, uh, or wildly unsuccessful, I'll say, because I like what you said earlier, and again, it's, it's tied into this idea, the distinction between I have failed and I am a failure.

And you know, I, in my time as a, a leader of people, you know, I've tried my best anyways to coach some of my employees through that, of really understanding that distinction of like. We need to be able to say that you have failed, but we need to understand that that does not make you a failure and to challenge your own thinking.

You know, when you get into things like, I hate Tim WinDor, I'm going to believe that at some fundamental level you've embodied that you are a failure, not just that you've failed a hundred percent. And I think especially for leaders, when you're in some sort of position of authority, and especially when it's over people, the reason that that is so vital is because, you know, you hold so much more influence on the people around you.

And I think, [01:32:00] honestly, I'm gonna maybe even challenge what I just said. Zoom back, zoom out a little bit, because whether you are in a position of authority at a workplace or not is, uh, it's discrediting the impact that you have on the people in your life. And I, I, I can't remember where it was. I think it was at a, a, you know, a Christian men's conference or something like that.

And they were encouraging these men, uh, to step into accountability and ownership, and then frankly, stop being lazy bums and to say, like, your family, your friends, the people around you, your coworkers, they need you to be the best version of yourself that you could be. And it was absolutely the opposite of a guilt trip.

It was a call to arms. It was, um, an encouragement that, you know, you have a tremendous amount of influence on the people around you, whether or not you want it. Right. Um, some of this goes back to, um, you know, this saying that I've heard it might not be your fault, but it is your responsibility. Right. I think that there's so [01:33:00] much wisdom in that.

And of course, can these things be misapplied? Of course, everything I've said could be misapplied, but I think by and large, you know, in sales, in marketing, in leadership, in any of these things that there's so much value in. Making a distinction. And I love what you're saying, Tim, not just that you can own your successes and push away your failures.

No. You need to have a healthy relationship to both of those things. Correct. And I think that that is just such a, a powerful thing to tuck into. Yeah. It, it's what I, and I love what I love about your podcast. You know, my podcast has a certain sort of. Place it sits, but it also doesn't sit, which is one of the problems with my podcast.

It sits everywhere. You know, I get people who say, Hey, you know, I could, I could get you a $10,000 sponsorship, but you just have to pick a lane. And I say, uh, you don't understand me. I don't, I'm not a lane picker, so I'm not in a lane. But what I love about your podcast when you, because you, you know, you have this idea where your time of sales, marketing, leadership, all this, but actually all of those really at their core and maybe the [01:34:00] core of this conversation, which is organic in nature, unplanned, which makes it even more delightful.

It's about the human experience, which is one of imperfection. It's about this or that. And, and again, if I look back, you know, maybe 13 Tims ago, for instance, 'cause some of the people who know me and some people who don't, and peop the longer I podcast, the more I pull, pull back the onion layers that are Tim, you know, so I have a, a similar heritage or history in relationship to a faith understanding that Aiden does.

And there, and it doesn't mean I've totally unmoored myself from all of those things, but you know, I, but there are some really interesting sort of sacred texts. And one of them I think about in this area, which I, I, I often quote to myself a lot 'cause I find it very, very, uh, healing and hopeful. And it's where, uh, it's in the New Testament and the Apostle Paul is [01:35:00] writing about, you know, dealing with his own humanity, which was, was, uh, was marred and the humanity of others.

He uses this analogy, he says, we have this treasure in earth and where earth and vessels so that the surpassing greatness can be seen as coming from God is the term he uses. Oh. You know, again, if you're listening in, that may not be the language that makes you feel good. So you, you subject, you, you can substitute whatever you want to for the sake of just hearing.

What's interesting to me is that in, in the original text, the, the Greek, at least the Greek translation, um, the, the term that's translated, uh, earth and pots is actually cracked pots. It's actually broken pots. And this actually is something that Leonard Cohen speaks about when he writes a song and he talks about how the light actually comes through our cracks.

So I [01:36:00] think that this is the problem in business. I think it's the problem in life. I think it's the problem in marketing, it's the problem in sales, it's problem is that we wanna pretend that we have no cracks. But I actually think that what lets the light shine out real transformative, when you think of light in, its sort of, in its essence.

It's, it's the, it's the expression of energy. It is, it is the thing that, you know, breaks the power of that which is opaque and dark, uh, in interpret that any way you want. But the reality is, is that those flaws in ourselves, those flaws in the campaign, they let the light out. And I think we, we, we live in a society and culture that is so aching for light, but so unwilling to be the broken vessel that wants to transmit it.

We wanna have it all done and dusted. We want it all figured out. We want the Christmas card to be [01:37:00] perfect. All our kids smiling. All the kids smiling, which is lovely. But, you know, I, I, I think, and maybe this is part of just for me getting a little bit older and more comfortable on myself, maybe, I don't know, but.

Man, it, I, I love to encounter other people who have cracks. Uh, you know, I, I, because it makes me hopeful. Um, and that's the problem with social media. 'cause you don't really get allotted for your cracks. You don't, you know, we, we, we, we, we photo Photoshop this, we airbrush that, you know, on some of my pictures on social media, I may have actual pectoral muscles.

No, I don't, we don't Photoshop any of that, which, but I think there's a real principle here for all of us and whether we're leading or following, which we're always doing at one level, whether we're creating campaigns, making marketing material, designing sales [01:38:00] processes, uh, starting businesses that we're trying to bring to fruition, uh, maybe just a little bit on more understanding that to let the real light shine through that it shines through imperfection.

I think that's what I hear in the wisdom of Paul in that. And I think it is beautiful, beautiful, wonderful. And Cohen in his, who by the way, I found out recently has spent time, uh, in, in, uh, as a monk recently, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, yeah. Very fascinating. Again, I think he's tucked into something so powerful.

Uh, and so I guess, you know, if I think about this conversation, it's a great encouragement to, to be, to strive for excellence while understanding that perfection is impossible. E everything you do, okay? We shouldn't use this as excuse not to strive for excellence. Absolutely not. But we should strive for excellence, contend for it.

Um, even [01:39:00] potentially encourage to require it at times while understanding that excellence is not perfection and that the, the space between the two is where true humanity ought to live and dance. That's something I'm gonna be more comfortable with into the future. Well, and to me, that just brings us right back around to when we're talking about AI and how ai, you know, if, if we're talking about pots like ai, uh, will iron out any blemish Yeah.

Or any hint of, again, you know, something that bears the mark of its maker. Right. Correct. It, it creates this mosaic, I suppose, of information that you feed it, but it's this kind of false reality and it's hollow and it really, um, it lacks soul for, for, you know, yes. Maybe lack of a better word. But, um, yeah, I think all of that.

You know, all of this, this whole [01:40:00] conversation, Tim, summarizes why I love doing, uh, business in life with you, my friend, because I, I, I love it too. You, again, your approach is so deeply human to what you do, and I love, you know, you again, you've really shaped the way that I see business problems, to dig deeper and kind of, I like how you talked about, again, your evolution of kind of starting in marketing and then going to sales and leadership and why, you know, you continually zoomed out and you're, you're looking for.

The root cause of something and you wanna, um, you know, not deal with a symptom, but deal with the sickness at times. And I think that, uh, again, there's just so much wisdom in there as we slowly, Hey, before we, okay, okay, let me just speak to my audience for a second. So, listen, if you haven't tucked into Aiden's world, and by the way, you better spell amplifier because it's some weird marketing.

It's a, what are doing? It's so amplify. So A-M-P-L-I-F-Y, and then the letter R on the end amplify breaking all marketing conventions. I, the advice I give people is don't spell, you know, a business name or a name or [01:41:00] anything weirdly. And I went and did it. There you go. So don't listen. So Aiden, don't do what he says.

That's right. Hire him, but don't do what he says. Um. But if you haven't tucked into Aiden's, we're all on his podcast. You should. It's a, it's, they're really wonderful conversations with deeply, you know, pr, deeply practical, uh, entrepreneurs who are trying to figure it out. And I appreciate that. Again, just really appreciate it.

And I'll say again, if you've, if you haven't come into, if you're in Aiden's world and never come into my world, uh, shame on you. No, I absolutely, I'm just kidding. Uh, what I, what I'd like to say is, is that, you know, I, I had the privilege of doing a, uh, doing a podcast episode with Aiden and Leanne and those people who follow and commodify would know this.

Um, and I was looking at it just for fun, just to see. So of all the, uh, by the time this rerelease is I'll have released over 200 episodes, and I don't imagine this will change, but the second most highest listen to podcast in all of the 200 plus, [01:42:00] no joke, okay. Yeah. Is the one that I did with you and Leanne.

That's wild. The one that that outpaces it still a little bit is a conversation I had with my friend Craig mentioned, who I adoringly call my leadership historian. And it was a conversation we had about Endur uh, inandi, which was amazing. Okay, so you are just above, just so you know. I appreciate that.

Just above her. Um, just below her. Sorry, not above not, yeah. But, uh, what a great conversation that was. And again, speaking of, you know, again, this deep humanity and dealing with life and, you know, these are the, these are the macro themes, but. Uh, listen, I'm going to pretend I'm not in control of this again anymore 'cause I like to be in control and I'm gonna leave it to amplifier Aiden to, to wrap this up, to bring, to bring this into a la for a landing the way that you'd like it to, because I think we've talked for like six hours now.

Just, I mean, yeah. We, it, it feels that way. I know my bladder certainly would indicate I, I might have, I might have to do a three or, uh, episode [01:43:00] release, but it's a great conversation. Well, and again, Tim, like, yeah. Uh, I'll use this as an opportunity to publicly thank you and to say, man, the way you've, uh, just transformed my thinking about all these things, you know, and, and that of your son.

You also have great offspring that have also, that's Pam, Tommy, that's Pam, remember? Okay. So Pam, ultimately, if we're going back to the root causes of things, Pam, thank you for what? A beautiful womb. The beautiful, I know. I look at my kids and I go, Leanne, thank you for giving me four the most beautiful children I could ever.

Right. Dream that Chris. Isn't that beautiful? Let's not get carried away. I don't, you guys look a lot alike, so I don't Well, that's, well, I know exactly what I'm saying then. Well, Tim, it's been a pleasure, man. I would love to revisit this with you someday. I mean, we can, again, there's a thousand different ways we can taken this conversation.

Um, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for coming to the dog house and hanging out. Yeah, hanging out with the dogs. Being a dog today. I love, I love the doghouse. Is it DOG or DAWG. I know. I feel like I've broken your heart by [01:44:00] spelling it properly. D the one time I did spell it properly was DOG then it's not DA, but I get it.

It's full of dogs. It's good A Ws. I love it. Thanks Tiff. Thanks man.