Unapologetically Provocative: UNCORKED with SARAH CHAN

What happens when a 26-year-old refuses to sit down, shut up, or soften her edge for our comfort? Well, you’re about to find out.

In this UNCORKED and unapologetically raw conversation, Tim Windsor sits down with Sarah Chan, a bold, brash entrepreneur building her own marketing company while calling out what she sees as cowardice in leadership, business, education, and politics. From turning a failing Saks Fifth Avenue counter into six-figure sales with zero experience to doubling her company’s revenue in a year, Sarah shares how self-belief was not handed to her but forged through results, rejection, and relentless honesty. This episode explores the power of conviction, the cost of speaking the truth, and the difference between opponents and enemies in a polarized world.

Together, Tim and Sarah dive into work-life balance, generational frustration, insecure leaders, broken systems, healthy debate, and why uncomfortable conversations might be the very thing that saves us from cultural collapse. You may not agree with everything said in this episode. Good. That is the point. This conversation is not about echo chambers. It is about wrestling with ideas, challenging bias, and rediscovering the courage to speak with integrity, even when it costs you.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Unmodified podcast. I'm Tim Windsor, and the guest on my show tonight is Sarah Chan. Sarah, welcome to the show. I'm gonna call it the show tonight.

Thank you my man. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun, so if you haven't figured it already, just hearing Sarah, Sarah's got a little bit of an accent, at least to me. Because Sarah is from a part of the United States where they got a little bit of accent going on. Sarah,

I guess, yeah, man, that's what they say. I don't know.

I don't know. Is that, Jersey Shore?

Yes, yes, yes.

That's Jersey Shore. So listen, guess.

accent.

Guess my listeners, you're gonna love this conversation. I, I connected with Sarah, I know, six months ago or so online, started seeing her world. And then, uh, person that knows Sarah knows me, uh, Suzanne Taylor King, A-K-A-S-T-K, [00:01:00] who I was on her podcast and then she was on mine, and then Sarah was on hers and I was on Sarah's.

And it's just like a, it's a wonderful networking fest. I love it. So I'm excited to have this conversation, Sarah, tonight. And so let me ask you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put the pressure on you tonight. If I met you for the first time and you were introducing me to you, and you were saying Sarah Chan complete, the sentence is, how would you answer that question, Sarah?

Bold, controversial, and stupid intelligent.

Look at that. I love it. Bold, controversial, and stupid. Intelligent. By the way, I love this stupid intelligent 'cause. It's this great oxymoron. I love it. So, uh, by the way, I would say all those things are true in every conversation I've had with you, Sarah, you are bold. A little brash little badass, which is, by the way, I think why I like you, and also you are super intelligent and you are also not quite [00:02:00] 30, I believe

You're, you're right, I am not 30. Thank you, Jesus. Not yet. I am 26.

I know, not even I, I said not quite, but she's not even, not quite. Sarah is 26 years old, and as you get to meet her tonight, listeners, you're gonna realize that Sarah punches well above her weight. And Sarah, in a lot of ways, I will tell you, you remind me a lot of my own children. I have a 36-year-old daughter and a 33-year-old son, and they always related to older people.

They always carried mature conversations, and that's always what I found. And you, as you and I have talked, so I'm looking forward to this conversation tonight, but of course, this is an uncork conversation. And, uh, you are over 21 in the United States of America, so that's good. So we're gonna have a drink together.

What are you drinking?

I am drinking down east cider craft cider. Not that angry orange bullshit. , Angry Orchard bs. Sorry. Um, super tasty and it's 5%.

Okay. And by the way, just so you know, I have an explicit disclaimer on my podcast, so you can say whatever you want here. It's fine.

That's [00:03:00] phenomenal.

I know that's the way you gotta go. Now, for me, listeners, I am actually doing something a little different. I don't typically drink a lot of white wine, but this is white wine.

It's a Riesling. And why I love it is it's actually from a winery not far from where I live, in Canada, in Niagara, on the lake, and it's the winery's called megalomaniac. And what's cool about this winery is the guy who started it, he was been in the wine business for a long time and he found the wine business sort of too uppity and snobbery.

And so he developed wine and he gave it all this crazy name. Like he's got a, one of the lines called Son of a Rich Marlot, I think. And this one's called Megalomaniac. And, and so on the back of it, it says this, what's with the name? I originally wanted to christen these wines with my name John Howard, and then a good friend of mine accused me of being yet another fucking megalomaniac. Regrettably. The name Stuck Ego. Notwithstanding, our mission is to bring integrity to the elements of wine production. It's great wine, but more important is the story. So here I'm gonna pour myself a glass of that.

Let's [00:04:00] go. Might as 

well drink from the 

we got the megalomaniac going on, so that's good. So, okay, so Sarah, let's start the conversation here as I, I can't get used to screw top wine, by the way.

It just seems so cheap, but that's fine. Anyways,

I used to drink wine out a box when I was in college.

oh gosh. Not wine out of a box. We cannot, I, I know wine out of a box is good. My, my daughter-in-law drinks it

It's delicious with a little Sprite in that

shit, and 

I know it's the same. thing, but I feel like I want to get down on my knees and just put this boat right in my mouth, so I can't, I can't do it.

Well, that's how we used to do it

back 

I know, I know that's the way they used to do it, but I'm too old for that now. So, okay. Listen, uh, here's the conversation that I want to have with you, Sarah. And of course we're gonna have lots of other conversations along the way. I wanna talk about two things. I want to talk about the power and potential of belief and what believing in ourselves does as we enter the world, whether it's in our personal professional lives, in the work that you do.

But what does believing in [00:05:00] ourselves. Really do for us, and how do we do that in a way that we don't become narcissists? That, that would be one thing I'd wanna think about. Well, I have another conversation I'll have later, but let's start with that. So you obviously are a person who is extremely talented, you know, quite young, very much stable in yourself, which is what I find and what I love about talking to you.

You obviously have a tremendous sense of self-belief. So let's talk about where did that come from?

I didn't have a home that. Taught me how to believe in myself. So every ounce of success solidified what everyone else thought about me already. I had incredible mentors throughout my twenties that told me, I don't think you belong working for someone else. , Because I always knew I was gonna be a business owner.

Let's just put that first. In order to get myself to somewhere, that I wanted to be successful, it was a matter of the fact that I [00:06:00] had to believe myself. So in order to solidify that success and results is how I did. So, the more I started achieving results and success is actually how I figured out. I was like, oh, I'm not as shitty as other people say that I am.

So that kind of just. Started drowning out the noise and I just kept going for it and chasing that high of success. That's how I honestly solidified it.

Hmm. Interesting. So you had a bunch of people speaking a lot of negative crap in your, 

head and in your ears, but yet you found a way to figure out how to get behind that noise and figure out who you were and get comfortable in your own skin. And so you're, you're in your mid twenties now and you have a really interesting, uh, world that you've created.

So what is the world of Sarah Chan?

in business, personal life philosophy.

let's do the whole thing. Let's do 

think, I think my world is. I'm just a truth Teller. Honestly, I cannot stand the world that we live in where we reward [00:07:00] cowardice, people in general versus people telling the actual truth. I tell the truth all the time, and unfortunately that's gotten me called a lot of the time, that I'm angry.

I'm not angry. I'm just telling you the truth with conviction in my voice, which sounds like I am, and a lot of people, they sit here. And they judge someone for being so young, but so secure within ourself, and we don't reward people for actually speaking the truth. I don't know where this got lost along the way in Modern Day Society that we reward people for being.

Honestly, bitches in the workplace versus people that have actual integrity and a part of having real integrity is speaking the truth. A lot of the time, we became such an incredibly weak society that we allow people to tell us how to think, what to say, how to. How to say it and all this other crap that makes us walk on eggshells for everyone else.

And I think that's a very toxic society in which [00:08:00] we currently live in. And no one else is gonna fucking say something unless it's going to be me. And honestly, I really just don't give a fuck anymore if someone just tells me you are. You're angry or you're this or you're that, because the only reason why you are saying that is because you don't have the balls to say it the way I do.

That's the difference between you and me. But here I am 26 and some per other person's like 48 years old, and you're telling me how to act when you this entire time don't even know how to act yourself. That's the fucking problem In society. We allow people to have a safe space that has created a weak society in hard times.

Listen there. It's very true. What people say hard times create great people, great times create bad people. Okay? That's very true. 'cause look at the way the geopolitical, geo economical situation is right now. We do not have strong leaders in politics or power that are running the world until last [00:09:00] year where we have a very strong political figure in office in the United States of America.

I'm not sure how Canada works, however. When we reward softness, we create bad times. We cannot continue on this. This incessant need to be someone else. When you have to already just say what you're thinking, and if you get fired for it. If you get canceled for it, it's probably nine times outta 10 because you're right.

Hmm. Interesting. So here I wanna, let's go back for a second. So you have this surety about who you are. You have this belief in yourself, which is so powerful. So when you look back growing up, you, you. There were times when you didn't have that. You had other people speaking into your ear, and yet you have come to this.

So did you have a, was there a specific experience where you started to realize, you know what, I'm not going to be that person. I'm gonna be the person I want to be and I believe that I can do this. Was there a specific [00:10:00] time or situation that sort of crystallized that for you?

I would say working at Saks Fifth Avenue, I sold $110,000 in eight months. No sales experience. Worked in restaurants throughout my entire college career. I was 22 when I got hired and. That honestly just showed me like no matter where you come from, you can achieve a great amounts of success too. I mean, I took on a counter that literally had zero business being generated, and I took that counter and flipped it upside down in like three months. And I was, at the time, I was a kid. like, and realistically, Tim, I'll be so honest. I feel like I am still a kid in a lot of ways because I look at things with such a high level of optimism that a lot of people just don't anymore. But also, at the same time, I also love what I've been able to accomplish throughout my very young career that a lot of people, they're like, well, how the, how the fuck did you do it?

I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew that something needed to change. But also I [00:11:00] do come from, and I think this is important for your listeners to hear this, is that I do come from a very entrepreneurial family. My dad's a seven figure entrepreneur. Almost all of my extended Chinese family, all entrepreneurs too, when they came over from China and Hong Kong, they started businesses mostly in the restaurant industry.

So I think it's really important that, you know, you keep just. Striving for that level of excellence. I think a lot of people don't have that urge and sense of urgency to continue on achieving that level of success.

Hmm. So that being said, so your work today, what's your primary focus of your work today?

I think the amount of times that I've thought about, and I love this question, I love it when I got asked this now, when I first started my company. It was more so about making marketing more affordable. A lot of marketing agencies are gonna charge you anywhere between three to $6,000 a month for services.

Okay? Because then you have to also factor [00:12:00] in the client's budget as well for a running ads, running campaigns, stuff like that. You have to factor that in, but it's more so now. That I only take brands on when I think that there's a really good founder. I had a very poor experience with a previous client that I had literally so conflict avoidant, didn't know how to do anything.

Basically had to rely on external staff to get the job done. It is just gets to a point where we have a lot of marketing companies out here that just dunno what their. They're fucking doing. Basically, we're at a point in society where you have to really love what you do. The reason why I do what I do now is because I make people get seen, and when I think a founder is worth achieving success, that's why I do what I do.

Because if they benefit, then any marketer should have a smile on their face because a lot of times marketing companies will blow a budget. A lot of times, I would say seven times outta 10, a marketing [00:13:00] company will blow a budget 'cause they don't know how to manage it. But if you have a marketer that knows what they're doing, how to manage finances and the power of social media, which is what I specialize in, then you really found a good agency to go through.

 so social, media, social marketing is a big area of your focus. I know that you have a, an extensive background in relationships to copywriting, and obviously that is gonna help you in that area, okay, so how do you find clients?

Simply put, the way I switched my strategy for this year is I'm gonna let my content doing the talking. This year I started really switching up my content like in October of like last year. And then that's when I started getting like a lot of impressions and a lot of followers because of what I was doing was I was bringing honesty back.

What you see on LinkedIn is a lot of fluff, honestly. And it's, it's infuriating because we try [00:14:00] to play this political correctness game all day long. It's like, I don't even know how the fuck you are different from this other coach. You see what I'm saying? It's like I, I, I tell that to everyone. Everyone thinks I'm crazy when I say that.

You need to pick one thing out of your program that is different from the other leadership coach that is competing against you essentially. Okay, so I am going to let my content do it for me. Of course, I'll network. If someone introduces me, someone a value, of course I'll take a meeting. Other than that, I'm gonna let my content do the work.

A lot of what I've seen is a lot of networking groups online aren't. What they say they are. No one knows how to give out referrals. No one knows how to introduce people. No one knows how to talk about what they do because I can't tell what the fuck you do. In the first 10 seconds, you should be able to tell me how you do something and what you do.

And if you can't tell me that normally nine times outta 10, I just wrote you off.

Hmm. Well, again, that's part of your personality and the way you look at life, and I, and I en enjoy that. So let me ask you a [00:15:00] question, and of course it's never good to talk in generalities like your generation, but let's talk in generalities for a second. So when you look at. People in your generation and your friends and the world, you sort of, you live in and you look at how they look at, job opportunities and, working for a company and what is it that.

You think you and your generation is looking for from your work experience, whether you create it yourself like you are in your own business, or if you're working for someone else? what is a 20 something North American firecracker like yourself, and looking for From either the business they build or the businesses they work for?

I think we have done a very piss poor job in this continent about work-life balance. I think we've done a very piss poor job. We see more, more people, more depressed, poor and addicted fat. [00:16:00] All the other things than ever beforehand, and it's simply because we do not give our teams time to decompress from jobs, period.

I don't need to be a psychologist to tell you that. Okay? Here's the problem. The problem is, is that what we look for now, everyone else rejects. We look for. You know, really good benefits. Let's just start there. The Mar healthcare marketplace in the uni inside the US is completely, you know, damaged.

Okay. And, you know, we simply cannot afford to get healthcare on our own 'cause it's super expensive. And then second of all, what we're also looking for is to be able to have a job that allows us the flexibility to create other. Hobbies or endeavors outside the workplace. Here's a problem that I see very often.

A lot of employers, when they find out that you have a side hustle or you're building a podcast or something that's an extra outside endeavor [00:17:00] outside of the workplace, they'll immediately fire you because people are insecure. And honestly, you and I sat on this on my podcast, we're talking about the same thing.

If you are that insecure. You shouldn't be hiring people, you shouldn't be a boss at all because you need to get your EQ right before you take on people because there's a substantial amount of EQ that you have to have naturally in order to manage people, and no one talks about that, so. Young kids like myself, we look for good opportunities that allow us the flexibility to work productively while giving us the freedom to spend it with our families and or outside extracurricular activities and or endeavors.

That's what we look for in the marketplace.

Hmm. So now I'm gonna give you time to have another drink. 'cause sometimes I don't let my guests get a second drink and you know, by the time they get a second drink, I'm onto my third or fourth. So you, you have a drink of beer [00:18:00] and let me muse on that for a second. So that's interesting.

You have a real clear understanding that you want some flexibility. You believe you and other people like yourself and your generation are looking for some flexibility, adaptability between work, and their, their home life, their private life. Uh, they have, there's complex issues obviously that we're all dealing with.

There's lots of challenges going on, but these are some of the things that you see that's important. You obviously also. You personally are really great at speaking your mind, which I can imagine creates some challenge every once in a while because people, particularly maybe frankly, older people like myself, we don't always, um, honor what we're hearing from when we're hearing from younger people.

And that can be a problem at times. So here, here's a question that I want you to think about. So, what does healthy debate look like for you? so. 

so. Because we have a challenge, I think, in our society right now. [00:19:00] I, I would say we probably have it globally. We for sure have it in North America. I know we have it in Canada.

I believe you have it in the us.

big time in the us Yes.

But we have this tremendous challenge around polarization, where the ability to disagree and the ability to debate without it becoming so polarized , that it becomes just a CES poll of shit. what does having healthy discussion and debate look like to you, and why is it potentially so important?

We move forward.

This is a very simple answer. If you stop talking about what you believe in to make the country in which you live in better, that's how Civil War starts.

Hmm. Interesting.

That's how it starts. Think about it, the American Revolution. Was simply to break away from British control by the monarchy. And we did [00:20:00] that successfully.

We got our independence in 1776. Now, you had the civil war happen in the 18 hundreds. Why? Because no one could actually get to healthy levels of communication. And then you had an all time war breakout along with fighting for the rights of from slavery, right? So. The minute we stop talking about what we believe in, that's how Civil War starts, and we're probably on the brink of it more so than anybody realizes the day that Charlie Kirk got assassinated in broad daylight should be an absolute wake up call to not only probably Canada, but to also the United States of America.

Everyone was very ha if you were on the opposing side, you wished a man dead, that he was a racist, that he was this, he was that. The Republican side in which I am a Republican, I did vote for Donald Trump. You know, we all mourn the loss of such an incredible individual. At the bare minimum. At the end of the day, [00:21:00] Charlie Kirk was a human being, and I think that's really where we start.

It's understanding where human beings, but we're also entitled to different opinions. Okay? There's a two party system in the United States along with third parties, right? You have the. Tea Party. You have the green party, you have the independence, you have the moderates, right? You have all these different political parties outside of the Democrat and Republican parties.

Politically, the problem is, is that we don't know how to have healthy conversations. I think the way we start having healthy conversations is just understanding why someone believes in what they believe in. I believe in what I believe in simply because my dad's an immigrant. I don't believe in illegal immigration and anybody who isn't illegal should get deported.

Why? Because my dad and everyone else who I know is an immigrant did have to wait to come into this country and that's, I don't think it's fair that someone just crosses the border and gets a BT SNAP and health benefits from our tax paying dollars. I don't think that's fair. Right? When I [00:22:00] know that didn't happen for my grandparents and my dad and my uncle when they came to the country.

Okay. That's 

why I believe in what I believe in.

And, you know, and first of all, again, I, this, I love this conversation. And again, if you're listening in, I always say you're listening in for a reason. And, and do me a favor, um, don't polarize yourself as you listen, because I think the way I see this conversation sort of going is we're gonna tuck into some.

Conversation and some things that are gonna be uncomfortable for some people, and that's okay. And I think this is part of maintaining tension and debate is, is that if I have to always be comfortable in the conversation, if I always have to be at a place where I'll never be offended. Then we are not gonna be able to have robust enough conversations that push and pull on each other.

Um, I will tell you to be honest, uh, and then this is just the way I look at life. So I'm not an American, you know, I'm a Canadian. but I will say that I follow people from lots of different streams of thinking. Not just people that [00:23:00] believe what I believe. 'cause I think an echo chamber is deafening.

I think an echo chamber makes you deaf. And so I consume social media. I consume news, for instance, from multiple sources. I, I always have, because at the end of the day, I believe Sarah, for instance, that most news. If not all of news today is more commentary than news reporting, and the commentary has a bias as every human does.

So my belief is, and and a number of podcasts ago, I did a podcast that was entitled, and it was just me jabbering on it was entitled, you don't just have opinions, you have biases. What I mean by that is I actually believe that about myself. I don't just have opinions about something. I don't just have beliefs.

I have biases now. I believe my bias bent is in the right direction, [00:24:00] but I typically believe that people who don't believe what I believe, their bias bent is in the wrong direction. And I think that's a problem. And I do think that we have to get better at tolerating. Listening to things that we don't appreciate for the sake of challenging ourselves.

So for instance, I myself, although I will tell you personally, although I didn't believe in probably a majority of what, let's say Charlie Kirk may have espoused, the fact that he met the death that he did is disgusting.

Thank 

you.

It's wrong. It's terrible. It's terrible. And that should never happen to anyone.

At the same time, I don't have to agree with the fundamentally what anyone is saying, but I can disagree in a way that does not create mortal enemies of one another. And I think that's one of the challenges in our culture right now, Sarah, is that if you and I [00:25:00] don't believe the same, I don't believe that makes us enemies.

I believe that makes us potentially opponents. That's different. Very different. And I don't think we handle that tension very well. I think it's a problem. I think that it's, ripping our culture apart. I think it's ripping our society apart to your point. And if we aren't careful, uh, we are going to get to a point where the rhetoric of disagreement.

Is going to take over the wisdom of debate.

A hundred percent. Listen, the way I believe in it is, I think we actually have an issue with debating when it comes to our education as well. Think about it generally, education. I would say the, I don't know this for a fact based off the top of my head, but I would say almost about generally 85% of American children go to public school.

Think about it. Okay. Your kids are sitting in school [00:26:00] for seven hours a day, being taught how to think, how to talk, how to learn, how to debate, and all this other crap. Basically program robots. So when you are taught basically one side of the argument and not the other side of the argument. Now we've got problems.

I thought about, I saw something on Instagram the other day. I find it ironic that we're taught, you know, basically only one genocide, but we're not taught about other genocides I have have happen, like say the Randan genocide. The Bolshevik genocide. Okay. We're only taught basically about the Holocaust.

I always wondered, it wasn't until I saw that, I was like, wait, why are we only being taught the one perspective? And if you. Question the one perspective. It's like, you're the worst person on the face of the planet. We have, we have also, it is our faults as adults that we have allowed this to happen.[00:27:00] 

And here's the problem is no one wants to take accountability for the way kids are like me are growing up and thinking only one way. Because think about it, like I said beforehand, you have kids sitting in school for seven hours a day being programmed not by you. Not by the world, but by people that are not their fucking parents.

I'm sorry.

Yeah. Well, and, and you know, I think it is a problem about people's worldview for, to your point, Sarah, I mean obviously ethnically, you, come from a, uh, an Asian, uh, heritage and

tradition. And again, the value set, the belief systems within Asian culture are different. You come and you amalgamate that culture together.

I think we've lost some of that, and people live in, again, their own echo chamber.

I mean, I, I think statistically the majority of American adults don't actually have a passport, meaning they, they. Typically stay within your own country and that's fine because you have a big country and you can travel and be in cold climate and warm climate and all of that stuff.

But I will say that the one thing that's been transformative for me in my own worldview [00:28:00] was spending a lot of time in Africa and, and India, other countries and and other cultures, and learning that I had bias. I believed that my culture wasn't just better, but it was right, and it was the only right one.

You start to begin to realize as you get outside yourself that there's a lot of different ways to look at the world. Even our heritage as a country in Canada, we have a very deep, dark past in relationship to how we treated our indigenous. People or first Nations people, very much a conspiracy, uh, to between and complicit between the church and state and the eradication of, indigenous culture.

the stealing of children from their parents to put them in residential schools because white people could, knew better. All the thing. we've got lots of atrocities in our own world. And to your point, up until recently we never even talked about this in our own country. Children now for the first time in in Canada, are being educated about what we did.

When I went to school, it wasn't even in a textbook. We didn't [00:29:00] talk about it.

Right.

So we're, I think what's happening, and I think it's a good thing, is we're starting to recognize that we all got our own bullshit. We all got problems

It's the same way in American school system. We're not taught that the American people, white people in general, put Chinese and or Asian people in concentration camps and built the railroads. We're only told that. Black individuals have gone through slavery. So it's a completely biased education system that we're perpetuating onto American children.

I think the problem is, is that when you only hear one side of the story, it doesn't make you question anything else because you don't know anything else. And most nine times outta 10 people are not gonna go look for the other side.

it's so true. And by the way, I wanna bring this back to sort of the world of leadership and coaching and connecting with leaders and all that kinda stuff, because I think that in business, in business leaders fall susceptible to the same thing. And I always say to leaders when I work with them, I said, the thing you must never forget is, as a leader, you might have a unique perspective, [00:30:00] but you do not have a complete perspective.

And

Amen.

there's a big difference.

A hundred percent.

and sometimes it's just the privilege of perspective. The, the higher you climb in an organization, if you think about it like a building, if you live on the 20th floor of a building in, in New York City or the 50th floor, you get to see. The, horizon very differently than if you live on the second floor.

Just because you have had the privilege or you gain the opportunity to get to the 50th floor, doesn't mean you're a fucking better person. It just means you've got a different vantage point to view things from at the end of the day. You go in the same door at the bottom of the building and people need to remember this in business and we gotta remember it in our society because so often we take our vantage point as the only and truthful vantage point, and it's just

Yeah. Yeah. I, and listen, I, I remember we touched upon this subject on my show, and you know [00:31:00] what? I think the biggest problem is that people can't get their heads outta their own asses. I think that's, I think that's a real issue. and I think I, I wanna start here with what I'm about to say.

Leadership. I actually responded to a post on LinkedIn from Mike O'Neal. I'm sure you know who that is, Tim. And it was somewhat along the lines of leadership is simple. Something like that. I'm like, leadership is really fucking simple. This is how you become a great leader. Don't do things that you don't like being done to you.

To other people. It's so fucking easy

It is,

and I think that a lot of people, they sit there and wonder why their teams hate them. It's because you are doing what you didn't like onto your team and not asking them if there's something to be changed. You think your way is the only way to get something done and that's that.

No, that's totalitarianism at its finest. Sorry. Okay. The workplace [00:32:00] should be open for open debate because if your way works better than my way, what do you think? I'm gonna say? Your way is more efficient. It's not because I'm stupider than you, it's because you came up with a better idea and there's nothing wrong with that.

No, I You're right, and, and it is, you are correct in that we overcomplicate so many things and partly I think the propensity to overcomplicate is we want people to think that somehow we've figured out things that they'll never understand. 

And that's a problem, you know, and we wanna sometimes make things look harder than they need to look, because we want them to look more unattainable.

And I think that's a problem. And to your point, leadership is rather simple. You know, if you keep your own house in order, you remain accountable. you do the right things. You treat people, as you said, the way you'd like to be treated. You include people in the conversation. You understand that you're not the only, [00:33:00] nor are you the smartest person in the room.

Some days, if you just remember a few of those things, then you know you, you would move in the right direction and you would bring people to, to yourself. At the end of the day, a lot of people who think they're leaders, they're not leaders. At the end of the day, leaders have followers and followers.

Follow those whom they respect and

trust. It's not that difficult. If I don't respect you, if I don't trust you, I don't want to be led by you. And I would go so far to say is the most important leadership role that every person have is self-leadership. 'cause at the end of the day, if you can't lead yourself, if you can't get your own shit together, why the fuck would I wanna be led by you? 

Let's go. It's so, it, you know what, I find it so utterly fucking astounding when someone tells me to follow you, but you don't have a fucking clue what you're [00:34:00] doing. it's like a backhanded compliment, honestly. Right? We've all had them backhanded compliments, and it's so much worse because you're like, you're sitting there and being like, that is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard of.

Why would I follow you? And that if you don't get a say, you just have to do the stupidity and it's gonna drive you absolutely fucking crazy all day long.

yeah, you're a hundred percent right. So let's, think about this 'cause we're gonna bring the conversation into a, for a landing in a little while, but, so you're 26 now, so I want you to think. think out 10 years from now. 10 years from now. By the way, I'll be 70, so I'll be a

little, I'll be, I'll be older, man.

I, my wife and I are officially seniors. It's, it's, it's crazy. It happened. I was 26 yesterday, Sarah, just to be clear, but It wasn't quite yesterday, so let's say 10 years from now. Okay, so Sarah Khan is now 36 years old.

Mm-hmm.

What do you envision. what [00:35:00] does 36-year-old Sarah look like?

Personally, professionally.

You, you just, go wherever, whatever.

Okay. I only ask because obviously, you know, having context is important, but I think 36, married have a couple kids. Multi-business owner, but probably running for public office.

Oh.

Yeah.

Okay. You've heard it here. 

Sarah Chan, what kind of public office?

I would like to. Probably become governor.

Okay.

I think we, 

New Jersey. 

honestly, yes. I think that at one point when I was a child, we did have a Republican governor. It was when Sandy happened, and I was in middle school when Sandy happened, and I didn't have power for three weeks by the way, along with I know that Yonkers, Brooklyn, Queens got hit much harder.

They didn't have power for months, by the way. Um. [00:36:00] I think the way that taxes are being distributed in New Jersey are absolutely fucking terrible, and we are not allocating resources the way they should be. The first thing I do in public office is honestly, I would look into the way we're actually managing a budget because I don't see the rotating fix at all.

So if I'm paying taxes here. Why are the roads not being fixed? We have a bunch of potholes everywhere. There's absolutely no reason why the state produces billions of dollars to the American GDP, that we have potholes here. That's, that's the bare minimum. So obviously and this is not just me saying this, but the young generation, regardless of a political affiliation, we all feel like this, that we got handed the shittiest economy.

Inside ever the United States. And on top of that, we don't feel a future. We are also allowing people that have been career politicians back into office and yet do continue to [00:37:00] not change anything. So who's gonna fucking change it? Tim? Is it gonna be the people that are career politicians? I mean, the best thing is, is when Trump debated, you know, Biden, and he said, I've done more in 47 months than you did in 47 years. That's the thing. If you don't have someone that's going to have proactive change inside of a GDP or economy, then get the fuck out. That's the problem. We keep electing people that are not making positive change and my generation's tired of it.

Hmm. Fair enough. Well, listen, um, that's interesting. So 10 years from now, you're, you're the governor of the state in New Jersey. I am fully retired, getting my pension. I like that. I like that. Although I won't have a very big pension because I've been self-employed all my life, so it's a little different.

My pension comes from the money that I saved, and my wife is really good at that, so she will take care of me for the rest of my life.

It's, it's 

amazing. It's a good deal. You know [00:38:00] what? She is a keeper. She, well, we got, like, we got almost 40 years into this relationship, so

I don't know. I, I know.

I couldn't do better. She could do better, but I know I couldn't do better.

So, well, all I would say, listen, I, I hope that you get, you get the privilege of having a great partner. Like I've had, my wife has been an amazing partner to me for 40 years, and one of the reasons for that is. She doesn't put up with my bullshit and she also supports all my crazy ass ideas.

And she says, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? You could fail, then we can move on. It's no big deal.

You know what? I hope to God everyone has a partner like that. 

You 

know 

when I first met my wife, I was 20 and my early twenties, I was making $60,000 a year, and I decided I would run my own business and I started my own business and made $7,000.

But I was, but I was having 

fun.

Yeah.

the direction of my career, so there you go. 

And that's the thing with me, like I think my first year in business, [00:39:00] which were coming up at the end of my second year, at the end of this month, 

I think I made like 20 grand last year. Then I just checked my p and l again. I made 45 this year.

There 

you go. And that's the thing, like you just have to keep working at it.

You have to have the self-belief. And that comes back to our original topic of discussion. You have to have the self-belief that if you can double your revenue in literally one year, bro, you, that's success, man. That's success. And I guess people just don't, you know, they don't think about it like that.

You know what I mean? They don't think 

about the small milestones that you've achieved.

yep. No, totally agree. Okay, listen, I'm gonna give you, uh, let's wrap this up for a second. 'cause obviously You're a real unmodified person. There's not very many people that I've met like you, Sarah, and that's what it's attracted to me. And I love having these conversations with you. So I got, this question for you.

So when Sarah walks in a room and bringing the thing that only Sarah can, what's the thing [00:40:00] that you're doing that you know in the moment people may not appreciate? When they leave and think about 

it, they will. What's Sarah bringing in that room? 

Being incredibly fucking honest

Hmm. 

and saying the thing that people are afraid of saying,

we don't 

Well, let's 

anymore, 

Tim. We just 

No, no, we don't, we don't, we don't have, that's a problem. And, here's what I wanna say to you as we finish up, Sarah chant, you give me hope for the future,

okay? Because, Because, We need a generation of people like yourself, frankly, like, I'll be really honest, like my kids who are willing to stand up and step up when things are difficult, they are willing to take it on the chin.

Uh, they're willing to allow it to cost them personally or professionally to do the right thing, to say the right thing to, to bring that honest contribution, whether people want to hear it or not. And my children have had their own share of difficulties navigating their own worlds as. The, in the last number of years because [00:41:00] they're not, you know, uh, didn't just kind of sit down and shut up kind of people.

Um, I described my, daughter in, my book on commodified. I described my daughter as someone who is unbridled and unbranded. you know, when you think about UN, an unbridled horse, an unbridled horse won't let somebody put a bit in its mouth to control its head, 

and an unbranded horse will not receive the branding or marking of ownership of anyone else.

The. And I actually believe that the hopefulness in the future for us and for a person like you is, you know, you're in a world where you do marketing and branding. My encouragement to you, Sarah, is never let yourself be branded by any other brand, but your own personal brand of integrity, honesty, vulnerability.

maybe brutal honesty at time. That's fine. And don't let anybody put a bit in your mouth. Don't

let anybody try to control you. [00:42:00] Remember that at the end of the day, if you're making decisions that you believe are at the positive benefit for yourself and others, then that's a great day and you give me hope.

And I, I'm just wanting to say again, if you're listening in and you're still listening, you're listening for a reason, and some of the things that Sarah said today, you might not have appreciated. It doesn't matter. In fact, I hope that some of the things that she said today, you didn't agree with it at all.

That's great. favor,

wrestle it. 

an 

opinion. 

It means It means you got a opinion. That's good. That's a great day.

So yeah, it is. And so, Sarah, listen, I appreciate this conversation. It's a great one. Thanks for your time. Listen, if somebody wanted to hunt you down and they wanted to connect with you, or they wanted to figure out how they could get your mad skills and social media 

and copywriting and everything working for them, how they find You 

You are gonna post my LinkedIn. You can find that on my LinkedIn, and then I'll my nine. My number is 9 4 1 4 0 5 9 7 4 6. Email is sarah@srqcopy.com. That's how you can find me and email me.

Awesome. And it's S-A-R-A-H, so it's

with an H, and it's Chan, [00:43:00] CHAN. Sarah, thanks so much for your time. Again, if you listened any, you're listen to reason, do me a favor, email me at tim@uncommodified.com or DM me and let me know what you're doing with this conversation and how it's. Actually pissing you off because if it is, then we might actually be moving in the right direction.

Thank you very much. Have a great day. 

Cheers. 

you.